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CERTIFICATE OF VERACITY
I, the undersigned, hereby certify that, in as far as it is audible, the aforegoing is a
VERBATIM transcription from the soundtrack of proceedings, as was ordered to be
transcribed by Gauteng Transcribers and which had been recorded by the client

COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO STATE CAPTURE
HELD AT
CITY OF JOHANNESBURG OLD COUNCIL CHAMBER
158 CIVIC BOULEVARD, BRAAMFONTEIN

DATE OF HEARING:

06 JULY 2020

TRANSCRIBERS:

B KLINE; Y KLIEM; V FAASEN; D STANIFORTH

Page 2 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
P R O C E E D I N G S R E S U M E O N 6 J U LY 2 0 2 0
CHAIRPERSON: Good morning Mr Notshe, good morning
e v e r y b o d y.

Yo u w i l l h a v e t o s w i t c h o n y o u r m i c ro p h o n e .

I

h a ve b e e n t o l d t h a t t h e r e a r e c h a l l e n g e s w i t h t h e l i g h t o r
n o w h o p e f u l l y i t i s g o i n g t o b e s o rt e d o u t i n a m a t t e r o f
m i n u t e s b u t I t h i n k I ca n – I c a n r e a d w h a t i s i n f r o n t o f m e
but the lighting is quite bad where you are Mr Notshe.

J u st

s p e a k t o M r S t i m e l a b e h i n d yo u M r N o t s h e t o f i n d o u t w h a t –
w h a t i s t h e l a t e st .
10

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Chair I am informed that it – it will take

about ten to fifteen minutes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Te n t o f i f t e e n m i n u t e s .
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s . B u t f o r m e t h e l i g h t i n g i s f i n e I c a n
read and…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV NOTSHE SC: Ja. I am not shaking about.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

I think there is a further message

coming to you. Ja.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
20

Chairperson we are – I am told that if

you can read I can and the witness can read the cameras
will be able to roll until tea time then they can sort it out.
So they say we can proceed if the participants...
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV NOTSHE SC: Participants can read.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

Okay no that is fine so it will not
Page 3 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
a ff e c t y o u r – t h i s l i g h t n i n g .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

It seems as if it will not.

They say the

camera will roll.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a . O k a y a l r i g h t . O k a y l e t u s s t a r t .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Chairperson before we get to the – the

witness. The – today was scheduled for two witnesses.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Mr – it was scheduled two witness Mr

Cedric Frolick and the witness who will testify Mr Charl Le
10

Roux.

Unhappily Mr Frolick physically indisposed as he is

unable to attend which would leave can then be – his
testimony be postponed [00:03:22] and then we arrange
a n o t h e r d a t e f o r h i s t e s t i m o n y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. To d a y a n d t h i s w e e k w e w e r e g o i n g
to – I was going to hear evidence for at least I think two or
three days relating to Bosasa.

Mr Cedric Frolick had

applied for Leave to Adduce to give evidence and to deal
with the allegations made against him by Mr Agrizzi in
relation to Bosasa and – and the arrangements had been
20

t h a t h e w o u l d c o m e t o d a y. B u t a s M r N o t s h e i n d i c a t e s h e i s
apparently unwell and we will have to adjourn the hearing of
his evidence to a date to be determined the Chairperson in
due course.

So the hearing of Mr Frolick’s evidence is

therefore adjourned.

But the evidence that we – I will hear

from another witness also relates to Bosasa.
Page 4 of 90

Do you want

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
to take it from there Mr Notshe just to give the context?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Chairperson today the witness who is

scheduled to testify is Mr Charl Le Roux.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

The genesis of his evidence is the

evidence of Mr Agrizzi.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV NOTSHE SC: And in the statement given by Mr Agrizzi
paragraph 22 of Mr Agrizzi’s statement.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV NOTSHE SC: He refers to repairs …
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Maybe you can – if you refer to a

paragraph you can indicate what that statement of Agrizzi is
– w h a t d a t e i t w a s g i v e n b e c a u s e h e g a v e a f e w.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A ff i d a v i t s

just

for

the

record

so

that

whoever reads the transcripts knows how to identify the one
that you are referring.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
20

Ye s M r C h a i r p e r s o n .

Chairperson it is

the – the statement of Mr Agrizzi – I just want to get it
there.

It is AA – it is Exhibit AA004 this is the first

statement that he gave.
CHAIRPERSON: What is the date?
ADV NOTSHE SC: Excuse me Chairperson I just…
CHAIRPERSON: Or is that the Exhibit number?
Page 5 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
A D V N O T S H E S C : T h a t i s t h e E x h i b i t n u m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. AA?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

It is AA – it is AA and then it starts at

AA01.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

But the statement is given the number

AA – Exhibit AA.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A A o k a y.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
10

Ye s .

But then what will help the AA we

will have – because I can then take the Chairperson to the
relevant paragraph.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh, you do not have the last page of the

a ff i d a v i t ?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Let me get to the last page of the

a ff i d a v i t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja because that will help indicate when he
deposed to the affidavit.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s .

T h e a ff i d a v i t C h a i r p e r s o n i s d a t e d

the – the 15 January 2019.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

Ye s

then

you

can

go

to

the

paragraph that you said.
ADV NOTSHE SC: Then to paragraphs.
CHAIRPERSON: At least the reader of the transcript will be
able to…
A D V N O T S H E S C : To f o l l o w y e s .
Page 6 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
CHAIRPERSON:

To – t o i d e n t i f y w h i c h a ff i d a v i t o f M r

Agrizzi.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: We are talking about.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s .

It is – the relevant part of Mr

Agrizzi’s statement is paragraph 22 and page AA036 of the
– of the – of the Exhibit.

It is the genesis if they – there

Chairperson you – one will see that it is – it is given a
specific
10

heading

of

Nomvula

Mokonyane

and

in

that

paragraph he then deals with the [indistinct] things, the
repairs that were done at the house of Ms Mokonyane – Ms
Mokonyane. And thereafter the – the – Mr Richard Le Roux
– Mr Richard Le Roux’s statement also refers to the – let
me just take you to it. It is T3 the evidence – the statement
of Richard Le Roux wherein he also refers to the repairs
that were done at the house of Ms Mokonyane.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

Where – where is – where are the

other – where is Mr Agrizzi’s statement and everything?

I

had asked that I should have it with me.
20

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Mr Chairperson it is printed – it has

b e e n – t h e r e w a s a p r o b l e m w i t h t h e o ff i c e p r i n t e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V N O T S H E S C : B u t f o r t u n a t e l y, w e f o u n d a p r i n t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV NOTSHE SC: It is being printed as – as we speak.
Page 7 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

What we have done we have printed

three statements.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV NOTSHE SC: There is the statement – the statement I
have referred to.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV

NOTSHE

SC:

Then

there

is

a

supplementary

statement after he testified.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV NOTSHE SC: There were issues that you raised and…
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV NOTSHE SC: That were raised during the hearing.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV NOTSHE SC: He made a supplementary statement.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV NOTSHE SC: And also, there was a statement – and a
response to Ms Mokonyane’s statement.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

20

ADV NOTSHE SC: Wherein he gives you those. Those will
b e p r e s e n t e d s h o r t l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s

okay

including

Ms

Mokonyane’s

a ff i d a v i t ?
A D V N O T S H E S C : I n c l u d i n g M s M o k o n y a n e ’ s a ff i d a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
Page 8 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
ADV NOTSHE SC:

And then Chair this morning as a result

– yesterday arrangement will be – legal representation of
Ms Mokonyane we visited her home and – and the – the
only purpose for this
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, maybe before we get there let me just
give

the

context

as

I

recall

it

from

the

evidence

and

a ff i d a v i t s o f M r A g r i z z i a n d t h e a ff i d a v i t o f M s M o k o n y a n e .
Mr Agrizzi gave evidence last year implicating a number of
people including some politicians and among other things
10

he testified that while he was at Bosasa there were a
number of people who were paid – who were given monthly
payments by Bosasa and he said Ms Nomvula Mokonyane
was one of them.

And also, evidence was led by him as

w e l l a s M r R i c h a r d L e R o u x t o t h e e ff e c t t h a t t h e r e w a s a
project within Bosasa I cannot remember what they called it
in terms of which Bosasa installed CCTV cameras and other
security equipment at the homes of certain people.

And he

mentioned Ms Mokonyane’s home as one of the – they –
that is Mr Agrizzi and Mr Richard Le Roux I think mentioned
20

Ms Mokonyane’s home as one of the homes of certain
people

in

which

Bosasa

installed

certain

security

e q u i p m e n t . A n d M r A g r i z z i a l s o g a v e e v i d e n c e t o t h e e ff e c t
that he visited Ms Mokonyane’s residence.

It may be that

h e s a i d d i ff e r e n t r e s i d e n c e s i f h e w e n t t o b o t h r e s i d e n c e s
t h a t t h e o ff i c i a l r e s i d e n c e a n d t h e p e r s o n a l r e s i d e n c e a n d
Page 9 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
he

said

on

one

occasion

he

went

to

Ms

M o k o n y a n e ’s

r e s i d e n c e t o g e t h e r w i t h M r G a v i n Wa t s o n a n d t h e y m e t w i t h
Ms Mokonyane and he said – I think he said it was on that
o c c a s i o n t h a t M r Wa t s o n h a d b r o u g h t m o n e y f o r M r – o r M s
Mokonyane

which

was

either

–

it

was

given

Mokonyane or was left on the chair in the house.
remember the details.

to

Ms

I cannot

And there was also evidence by Mr

Agrizzi that I think there were deliveries that were sent to
Ms Mokonyane from Bosasa. Of course, there is on a
10

number

of

occasions.

The

commission

asked

Ms

M o k o n y a n e t o d e p o s e t o a n a ff i d a v i t a n d d e a l w i t h t h e s e
allegations

and

she

dealt

–

she

co-operated

and

she

s u b m i t t e d a n a ff i d a v i t i n w h i c h s h e g i v e s h e r s i d e o f t h e
s t o r y.

My recollection is that she denied that Bosasa had –

was paying her – or had paid her any money as alleged by
Mr Agrizzi and he – she also said that Mr Agrizzi had never
b e e n t o h e r h o u s e i f I r e c a l l c o r r e c t l y.

And the commission

then continued to make investigations arising out of Ms

20

Mokonyane’s denial.

And the evidence that will be led

today

Le

by

Mr

Charl

Roux

relates

to

the

further

investigation conducted by the commission. And Mr Notshe
will also talk about a visit to Mr Mokonyane’s residence
yesterday

where

her

lawyers

were

present.

And

as

I

understand the position there was much co-operation from
Ms

Mokonyane

and

her

lawyers

Page 10 of 90

in

regard

to

the

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
i n v e s t i g a t i o n a n d t h e i r v i s i t t o h e r h o m e y e s t e r d a y.

Mr

Notshe. I thought let me just put that myself.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Because

you

–

you

are

new

in

the

I

can

commission.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

And

I

have

been

around

so

r e m e m b e r s o m e o f t h e s e t h i n g s b e c a u s e t h e a ff i d a v i t s a r e
not here yet.
10

A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u – t h a n k y o u C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja it is just important so that everybody

who listens to the evidence that is led today can remember
the context.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t i s t h i s e v i d e n c e a b o u t . O k a y.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
recalled

the

We l l t h a n k y o u C h a i r t h e – a s f a i r a s

project

regarding

Ms

Mokonyane

and

was

called Project Blouberg.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
20

ADV NOTSHE SC:

I think it is because of the house is in

Blouberg.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V N O T S H E S C : A n d C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

There was another – there was – I think

there was a general name for the project of installing
Page 11 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
s e c u r i t y e q u i p m e n t a t t h e r e s i d e n c e s o f d i ff e r e n t p e o p l e b u t
it may be that they called it according to each person. Like
Project Blouberg or Project PRASA or Project something
else.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Chair the way I understand Mr Agrizzi’s

evidence.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

The whole issue of repairs and all that

generally was called Project Shiftron.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV NOTSHE SC: And then by then there was sub-projects
under it.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V N O T S H E S C : O f d i ff e r e n t r e s i d e n c e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y.
ADV NOTSHE SC: And then the one in Blouberg.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

It was called Project Blouberg.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h – B l o u b e r g o k a y. N o t h a t i s f i n e .
20

A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Thank you Chair and thank you for the

assistance you gave me. Chair the – the before the witness
does testifying we – yesterday and by agreement between
us or the commission and the legal representatives of Ms
Page 12 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
Mokonyane

we

met at

Ms Mokonyane’s house

and the

purpose was to confirm the features that were identified by
a [indistinct] by Mr Le Roux in his statement that he saw
when he went to do some repairs at Ms Mokonyane’s house.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh, actually rather than to confirm to see

whether they are there.
A D V N O T S H E S C : To s e e w h e t h e r t h a t t h e y a r e t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s .
ADV NOTSHE SC:
10

And then Chair at the end of the

inspection we then sat down and recorded what had been –
what we had seen.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV NOTSHE SC: And pointed out by Mr Charl Le Roux.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

And which will give and by agreement

between the parties.
CHAIRPERSON: H.
ADV NOTSHE SC: I beg leave to read this into the record.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
20

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And Chair understand it is also in your

bundle Exhibit T13 and it is on page …
CHAIRPERSON:

I am sorry – I am sorry just repeat that I

missed that.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

And this statement – this memorandum

o f a g r e e m e n t i t s h o u l d b e i n t h e C h a i r ’s b u n d l e a s w e l l – i n
Page 13 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
the commission bundle Exhibit 13 – T13.
CHAIRPERSON: T13.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

The – okay maybe what we will do

I know that I have confused some of the members of the
legal team.

Shall we call this Bundle something that is the

lever arch and Mr Charl Le Roux’s statement Exhibit 13 and
its annexures. Is that fine if we do it that way?
ADV NOTSHE SC:
10

The – what we have Chair is – is it in

Exhibit R13?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s n o w h a t I a m s a y i n g i s , s h a l l w e s a y

E x h i b i t T 1 3 i s M r C h a r l L e R o u x ’s a ff i d a v i t .
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s
CHAIRPERSON:

And annexures but the box we call it

bundles we give it a bundle number or bundle a letter
bundle or something.

So that it is clear that the exhibit is

not the box.
ADV NOTSHE SC: Oh I see.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t i s t h e a ff i d a v i t t h a t i s t h e E x h i b i t .
20

ADV

NOTSHE

SC:

Chair

can

I

just

confer

with

my

attorney?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Hm. Or alternative…
ADV NOTSHE SC: Chairperson.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

It – I am advised that we will after I
Page 14 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
have handed up the exhibit – I mean the – formally handed
up to you this exhibit 13 I am referring to we will then give it
a bundle number which will be Bundle A.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o t h a t i s f i n e . A n d i f – i f y o u k n o w
t h e r e a r e d i ff e r e n t b u n d l e s t h a t a r e b e i n g – t h a t h a v e b e e n
used.

I know that certainly under the PRASA work stream I

think they have following through with my inference handing
up these lever arch files as bundle B or bundle whatever
a n d t h e n t h e a ff i d a v i t s i n s i d e w o u l d b e E x h i b i t t h i s , E x h i b i t
10

that and Exhibit that.

But if what is most important for now

i s t h e E x h i b i t f o r t h e – f o r t h e a ff i d a v i t . T h e b u n d l e n u m b e r
or

bundle

l e t t e r,

Bundle

A

or

whatever

that

is

for

convenience and that can be – can be attended to ever
l a t e r.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

That does not have to go into the record

as such but it is convenient if everybody knows that you will
find Exhibit 13 in Bundle so and so.
ADV NOTSHE SC: So and so I understand, I understand.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV NOTSHE SC: Chairperson we will attend to that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y a l r i g h t .
ADV NOTSHE SC: Before – before we adjourn today I – we
will have attended to it so that it also goes to the record.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e r e c o r d y e s .
Page 15 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
ADV NOTSHE SC: As – and we will find bundle.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a . J a .
ADV NOTSHE SC: Chair before…
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV NOTSHE SC: Before I…
CHAIRPERSON:

So maybe let me – let me get this out of

t h e w a y. T h e – y o u s e e I s e e t h a t t h e r e i s a s t a t e – t h e r e i s
a n a ff i d a v i t a l s o o f Va n B i l j o n .
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

So that will have to have a separate or

e x h i b i t n u m b e r.

So the one that will be T13 is that of Mr

Charl Le Roux.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: So – but we – we can deal with that if and
when we come to it.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o n e f o r Va n B i l j o n .
A D V N O T S H E S C : Va n B i l j o n y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

S o t h e a ff i d a v i t o f M r C h a r l L e R o u x –

Charl Jax Le Roux is admitted and is to be marked Exhibit
T13, 13.
ADV NOTSHE SC: As the Chairperson pleases.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To g e t h e r w i t h h i s a n n e x u r e s .
ADV NOTSHE SC: As the Chairperson pleases.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
Page 16 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
ADV NOTSHE SC:
the

–

the

Chair with you leave and your guidance

memorandum

or

the

minute

of

yesterday’s

i n s p e c t i o n t h a t w i l l f o r m p a r t o f t h e a ff i d a v i t o f M r L e R o u x .
Should

we

have

–

should

we

have

a

separate

exhibit

number?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s i t s h o u l d h a v e a s e p a r a t e e x h i b i t

number but maybe the best time to hand up might be at the
end of his evidence.

I do not know what you think about

that?
10

ADV NOTSHE SC: Chairperson that – that is also fine.
CHAIRPERSON: Ys.
ADV NOTSHE SC: Because…
CHAIRPERSON: So – so you will…
ADV NOTSHE SC: He would have testified.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

He will have testified and then you

say here is an agreement that was signed after the visit – at
the end of the visit.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
20

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And then Chair can I then move – and

then also the – what I had – but we will deal – we can deal
with it after he has testified.

The – because he was

e m p l o y e d b y M r Va n B i l j o n s o I w a s p l a n n i n g b u t w e c a n d o
it the other way around.
t h e – s o r r y – s o r r y C h a i r.

I was planning first to deal with
I was planning to deal with the

Page 17 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
e v i d e n c e a n d r e a d i n t o t h e r e c o r d t h e a ff i d a v i t o f M r Va n
B i l j o n b u t C h a i r i t d o e s n o t m a t t e r.

Let the witness testify

and then…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

And then we will deal with the other

i s s u e s t h e r e a f t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h e – i t d e p e n d s o n w h a t t h e – w h a t
sequence you – you want.

I do not mind if you refer to –

w e l l t o t h e a ff i d a v i t o f M r Va n B i l j o n .
10

It does seem to me

that to the extent that agreement who has been reached on
things that were seen in the – in Ms Mokonyane’s residence
i t m a y b e t h a t h e r a ff i d a v i t o r h i s a ff i d a v i t – M r Va n B i l j o n ’s
will not be challenged.

So I think you – you can – we can

get it admitted as an Exhibit and you can read the relevant
portions thereof. If later on they challenge it we will look at
that.

Yo u – a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i t i o n M r Va n B i l j o n l e f t

South African.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Last year I think.
20

A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: He now lives in New Zealand.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

So calling him may not be necessary if a

lot of what he says is not being challenged.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s C h a i r.
Page 18 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
CHAIRPERSON:

But also, if it is covered by what Mr Charl

Le Roux says we – it might not be necessary to call him
h e r e b u t t h e a ff i d a v i t c o u l d b e [ i n d i s t i n c t ] e n o u g h .
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s . C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Obviously Ms Mokonyane and her lawyers

will be free to challenge whatever they wish to challenge.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
A D V N O T S H E S C : C h a i r t h e – t h e a ff i d a v i t o f M r Va n B i l j o n
10

you will find it – it is in two places in the – in T13 and it is
on T13.
CHAIRPERSON:

Remember when you say T13 you talk

a b o u t M r C h a r l L e R o u x ’ s a ff i d a v i t .
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Chair that is…
CHAIRPERSON: So they better give it an exhibit of its own
– an exhibit number of its own if you are going to refer to a
n u m b e r.
ADV NOTSHE SC: Can I made a [indistinct] can I make this
20

– can I make this proposal?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm,
ADV NOTSHE SC: And so that this is formally changed.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
Va n

Biljon

until

C a n I l e a v e f o r n o w t h e a ff i d a v i t o f M r
the

secretary

would

Page 19 of 90

have

given

it

a

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
separate…
CHAIRPERSON: That is fine. Ja. That is fine.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

A separate number so that when I read

it.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV NOTSHE SC: Because I understand Chair it will cause
a confusion.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV NOTSHE SC: If I talk about T13 later on is admitted.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V N O T S H E S C : A s a n o t h e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

What – what – but what – what can

b e d o n e i s t h a t d i ff e r e n t e x h i b i t s n a m e l y d i ff e r e n t a f f i d a v i t s
can be in the same lever arch file.

What is important is to

always identify the correct exhibit number for the correct
a ff i d a v i t .
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: So it could still remain here if we know for
example – if we mark it as Exhibit T14.
20

A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Then when you refer to it you say I am

referring to Exhibit T14.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u k n o w.

Then we can still use it later

on you – you will mark the lever arch file as Bundle
Page 20 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
whatever and in the spine – on the spine of the lever arch
file.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

It becomes – you make it clear that the

contents are Exhibit T13 and Exhibit T14. So whoever picks
up the lever arch file.
ADV NOTSHE SC: Knows what.
CHAIRPERSON:

Knows that the contents are these two

exhibits.
10

A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

And – and if there is an index that will

show where to find each one of those exhibits.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

So in other words, I am saying it is up to

y o u – w e c a n s t i l l d e a l w i t h M s Va n – M r Va n B i l j o n ’ s
a ff i d a v i t n o w b u t w e w o u l d n e e d t o g i v e i t a n e x h i b i t n u m b e r
first.

If you are able to give it an exhibit number now but if

you cannot give it an exhibit number now then we can deal
w i t h i t l a t e r w h e n y o u a r e r e a d y t o g i v e i t a n e x h i b i t n u m b e r.
20

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Chair with your leave can it then be

r e c o r d e d t h a t M r Va n B i l j o n ’s a ff i d a v i t w i l l b e T 1 4 ?

Did we

n o t st a rt f r o m p a g e 1 8 ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r R e n i e r v a n B i l j o n , h i s a ff i d a vi t .
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

...will be admitted and marked as Exhibit
Page 21 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
T14.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s t h e a ff i d a v i t a n d i t s a n n e x u r e s.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Th a t i s o n T 1 4 , p a g e 3 8 , C L R 3 8 .

It is

t h e c o m m i s si o n e d st a t e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Uh...
ADV NOTSHE SC: CLR38.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Yo u w a n t m e t o g o t o p a g e 3 8 ?
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s, C h a i r. Ju s t t o . . . I a m j u st i n d i c a t i n g
t h a t co m m i s si o n e d . . . a n d I w a n t i t t o g o o n r e c o rd t h a t t h e
c o m m i s si o n e d st a t e m e n t st a rt s f r o m 3 8 t o 4 2 b e c a u s e b e f o r e
t h a t , i t i s a m e r e st a t e m e n t t h a t h a s b e e n si g n e d b ut i t w a s
not commissioned.

I t h a d t o b e se n t b a c k t o h a ve i t

c o m m i s si o n e d , p r o p e rl y c o m m i s si o n e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , y o u k n o w w h a t w e m u st d o ? A r e t h e y

n o t i d e n t i c a l t h e s t a t e m e n t a n d t h e a ff i d a vi t ?
ADV NOTSHE SC: They are identical.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

S o w h y d o w e n e e d t h e st a t e m e n t ?

Why

d o w e n o t j u st h a v e t h e a ff i d a vi t ?
A D V N O T S H E S C : A s t h e C h a i r p l e a s e s.
CHAIRPERSON:

I f t h e i d e n t i t y. . . I g u e s s b e ca u s e w e h a v e

n o w g i v e n . . . yo u h a ve p a g i n a t e d t h e m a l l .

It could cause

s o m e p ro b l e m s h e r e . T h e n w e s h o u l d r a t h e r si m p l y s a y, t h e
Page 22 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
st a t e m e n t h a s o p p o se d t o a ff i d a vi t , i s t h e o n e t h a t i s E x h i b i t
T or D.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h e st a t e m e n t h a d

a n n e x u r e s?
A D V N O T S H E S C : T h e st a t e m e n t h a s a n n e x u r e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , s o t h e st a t e m e n t o f M r R e n i e r, R - e - n -i e-r van Biljon.

B i l j o n i s B -i -l -j - o - n .

H i s st a t e m e n t d a t e d . . . i t

is undated.
10

A D V N O T S H E S C : I t i s u n d a t e d st a t e m e n t , ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e u n d a t e d st a t e m e n t t o g e t h e r w i t h i t s

a n n e x u r e s w i l l b e E x h i b i t J1 4 .

A n d h i s a ff i d a vi t w i l l b e

admitted and marked Exhibit T15.
S o I a m c o r re ct i n w h a t I s a i d e a rl i e r o n .

I said earlier

o n , t h e a ff i d a vi t o f M r R e n i e r v a n B i l j o n w o u l d b e a d m i t t e d
and marked as Exhibit T14.
I am changing that.

E x h i b i t T 1 4 i s h i s st a t e m e n t .

E x h i b i t T 1 5 i s h i s a ff i d a vi t a n d t h e a ff i d a vi t i s d a t e d o r w a s
deposed to on the 2nd of July 2020.
20

A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

So that is together with its annexures and

t h a t w i l l b e E xh i b i t T1 4 .
R I C H A R D L E R O U X’ S S TAT E M E N T W I T H A N N E X U R E S A R E
HANDED UP AND MARKED AS EXHIBIT T14
R I C H A R D L E R O U X’ S A F F I D AVI T I S H A N D E D U P A N D
Page 23 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
MARKED AS EXHIBIT T15
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

C h a i r, i t i s a s h o rt a ff i d a vi t t h a t I ca n

q u i c kl y r e a d i n t o t h e r e c o r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V N O T S H E S C : A n d I st a rt r e a d i n g . I t i s:
“I t h e u n d e r si g n e d R e n i e r v a n B i l j o n d o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
10

U m , o k a y.

Until you got... I do not think

y o u sh o u l d re a d i t i n t o t h e re c o r d a s s u ch b u t y o u . . . i f y o u
w a n t t o r e a d a p a rt i c u l a r p o rt i o n o f i t , y o u c a n d o i t .
O t h e r w i s e , y o u c a n j u st sa y w h a t t h e g i st o f h i s e vi d e n ce o r
t h e c r u st o f h i s e v i d e n ce i n t h a t a ff i d a vi t i s.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e i t i s a v a i l a b l e a s a n a ff i d a v i t .
A D V N O T S H E S C : T h e . . . C h a i rp e r s o n , t h e . . . i t m e r e l y r e f e r s
t o t h e . . . w h a t i s re l e v a n t f o r t o d a y i s h i s r e f e r e n c e t o t h e
w o r k d o n e a t M r Mo k o e n a ’s h o u s e .

And that appears on

p a g e T 1 5 , C L R 3 9 , p a r a g r a p h 6 o f t h e a ff i d a vi t .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s, I t h i n k h e . . . h i s e vi d e n c e o n t h e

a ff i d a vi t i s b ri e f l y t h a t h e . . . h e i s a q u a l i f i e d e l e ct r i ci a n a n d
t h a t i n 2 0 1 5 h e o w n e d a c o m p a n y. . . w h a t i s h i s c o m p a n y
called?
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

H e o w n e d a c o m p a n y w h i ch u se d t o g e t
Page 24 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
w o r k f r o m B o sa s a .

B o s a sa w o u l d s u b - c o n t r a ct i t t o d o

c e rt a i n w o r k f o r B o s a sa a n d h e . . .
T h i s s e e m s t o h a v e st a rt e d w h e n h e a t t e n d e d a ca l l - o u t
i n 2 0 1 5 a t M r A g ri z zi ’s h o m e a n d h e u s e d t o w o r k w i t h . . . I
w i l l g e t i n st r u ct i o n s f r o m M r R i c h a r d l e R o u x f r o m B o s a s a .
We l l , m a y b e I w a s w r o n g t o re st ri c t y o u M r N o t s h e n o t
re a d i n g . C a n I l e a v e i t t o y o u i f yo u w a n t t o re a d i t ?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

C h a i r p e r s o n , j u st t o . . . I t h i n k p a r a g r a p h

6 j u st g i v e s t h e co n t e xt a n d t h e n p a r a g r a p h 7 t h e n d e a l s w i t h
10

t h e w i t h t h e w o r k o f w h e r e t h e w i t n e s s d i d s o m e w o r k. A n d I
j u st q u i c k l y r e a d t h a t p a r a g r a p h 6 . A n d h e s a y s:
“ To m y k n o w l e d g e , I w a s d o i n g t h e w o r k f o r B o s a s a
a s a s u b - c o n t r a ct o r i n t h e u s u a l m a n n e r i n w h i ch w e
o p e r a t e d w a s a s f o l l o w s.
Mr Le Roux would inform me of an address where
s e r v i ce s w e r e t o b e p r o vi d e d a n d I w o u l d m e e t h i m
o n t h e si d e .
I w o u l d e va l u a t e t h e w o r k t o b e d o n e a n d t h e n q u o t e
B o s a s a f o r t h i s w o r k, st i p u l a t i n g t h e i t e m s r e q u i r e d

20

s u c h a s C C T V f i t t i n g s a n d t h e l i ke .
I w o u l d n o t st i p u l a t e t h e r e si d e n t i a l a d d r e s s o n t h e
q u o t a t i o n b u t w o u l d si m p l y r e f e r t o B o s a s a o n t h e
quotation, for example, if the pumps for the water
feature

had

to

be

changed

at

a

r e si d e n ce ,

the

h e a d i n g o f t h e q u o t a t i o n w o u l d m e r e l y st a t e “ w a t e r
Page 25 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
f e a t u r e p u m p ”.
A s a f r e e l a n c e e l e ct ri c i a n I s u b - co n t r a ct e d a n d i t w a s
n o r m a l f o r m e t o q u o t e b y si m p l y p l a ci n g “ w a t e r p u m p
re p l a c e d ” a s t h e w o rd i n g o f t h e q u o t e a n d i n v o i ce .
T h i s w e r e n e v e r h i g h - v a l u e j o b s.
I n c e rt a i n i n st a n c e s, I w o u l d p u r ch a s e e q u i p m e n t i n
o r d e r t o a ff e ct t h e r e p a i r s a n d i n o t h e r i n st a n ce s ,
B o s a s a w o u l d p u r c h a se t h e i t e m s a n d p r o vi d e t h i s t o
me.
10

I would then commence with the work and invoice
Bosasa after completion.
A l l t h e q u o t a t i o n s a n d i n v o i ce s w e re m a d e o u t t o
either Bosasa and/or Richard.
T h e r e w a s n o rm a l l y n o m e n t i o n o f a d d r e s s w h e r e t h e
w o r k w a s p r o vi d e d o n t h e q u o t a t i o n o r i n v o i c e .
I r e ca l l t h i s a s I h a d t o r e d o c e rt a i n q u ot a t i o n s a n d
i n v o i c e s, m a ki n g s u r e t h a t t h e r e w a s n o m e n t i o n o f
t h e a d d re s s.
H i s i n st ru ct i o n s w e r e g i v e n t o m e b y M r L e R o u x. ”

20

T h e r e w h e r e . . . i n t h e r e f e r e n c e h e r e w i t h M r l e R o u x,
R i c h a r d l e R o u x, n o t t h e w i t n e s s.
“I w o u l d e m a i l t h e q u o t a t i o n s a n d i n vo i ce s t o M r l e
R o u x w h o w o u l d t h e n a r ra n g e f o r p a ym e n t i n t o m y
account.”
And

then

the

heading

“ Wo r k

Page 26 of 90

p e rf o rm e d

at

Mi n i st e r

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
M o k o e n a ’s re si d e n c e ”, p a r a g ra p h 7 :
“I re c a l l e d t h a t I p e rf o r m e d w o r k a t h o u s e n u m b e r
1 0 5 , B l o u b e rg S t r e e t , K r u g e r s d o rp .
T h e C o m m i s si o n ’s i n v e st i g a t i o n ’s t e a m h a s p r o vi d e d
m e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON: Um...
A D V N O T S H E S C : C h a i r, c a n I co n t i n u e ?
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m t h i n ki n g o f . . . I t h i n k t h e r e si d e n t i a l

a d d r e s s, d o n o t m e n t i o n i t . . . d o n o t r e a d i t i n t o t h e r e c o rd .
10

J u st m e n t i o n t h a t t h e a d d re s s i s g i v e n f o r s e cu ri t y re a s o n s.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s. N o , t h a t i s f i n e . M y u n d e r s t a n d . . . I
u n d e r st a n d C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja.
A D V N O T S H E S C : N o , f ro m t h e n . . . f ro m n o w o n w a rd s, w e . . .
although it is on the record, I will not mention it in reading.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. J a .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

And then he says he was given the

a n n e x u r e b y t h e i n v e st i g a t o r s. . . h e w a s g i ve n t h e a n n e x u r e
RV B 1 .
20

RV B 1 sh a l l b e p a g e 2 3 o f t h e b u n d l e .

And then he

s a y s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , I a m j u st t h i n k i n g a b o u t t h e i s s u e . . .
We l l , o n e i s t r yi n g t o b e se n si t i v e t o s e c u r i t y i s s u e s b u t t h i s
w i t n e s s, f o r e x a m p l e , n e e d e d t o s p e ci f y i n h i s a ff i d a vi t w h a t
t h e a d d r e s s w a s , j u st l i k e M r B i l j o n n e e d e d t o s p e ci f y
b e ca u s e t h e r e w a s a d e n i a l t h a t B o s a s a h a d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
Page 27 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
A D V N O T S H E S C : G o n e t o t h e r e si d e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja .

So there was a need to do that.

t h a t i t m a d e i t n e c e s sa r y.

So

Also, they implicate that they

k n o w w h a t a d d r e s s a s t h e y w e r e t a l ki n g a b o u t b u t m a y b e
even

w h e n h e g i v e s e vi d e n c e , w e a l l n o w k n o w

which

re s i d e n c e h e i s t a l ki n g a b o u t .
M a y b e h e c o u l d s a y t h a t i t i s t h e r e si d e n c e g i ve n i n h i s
a ff i d a vi t w i t h o u t m e n t i o n i n g t h e st r e e t n u m b e r a n d s o o n .
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

I a m j u st t r yi n g t o s e e h o w o n e s t ri ke s a

b a l a n c e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON: ...between...
ADV NOTSHE SC:

T h e . . . C h a i r, t h e w a y I s e e i t , e s p e ci a l l y

w i t h y e st e r d a y w h i c h m a k e s m e n o w k n o w t h e p r e m i s e s t h a t
w e vi si t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV NOTSHE SC: So...[intervenes]
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e i s n o n e e d t o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
20

ADV

NOTSHE

SC:

The

w i t n e s s,

when

I...

when

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
A D V N O T S H E S C : . . . w h e n h e w i l l t e st i f y. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.,
A D V N O T S H E S C : . . . w e a d vi s e h i m j u st t o re f e r i f h e w a n t s
Page 28 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
t o t a l k a b o u t , “t h e re si d e n c e t h a t w e vi si t e d ”.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja.
A D V N O T S H E S C : A n d t h a t . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] t h e re s i d e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. J a .
ADV

NOTSHE

SC:

We

have

agreed

that

this

is

the

re s i d e n c e t h a t w e h a ve vi si t e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja-no, that is fine.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

A n d a s I u n d e r st a n d i t C h a i r, i t i s a l l

d o n e f o r t h e p u r p o s e o f s e c u r i t y.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s, y e s.
ADV

NOTSHE

SC:

So

that

one

does

not

expose

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, j a .
A D V N O T S H E S C : . . . t h e p e o p l e t o u n n e c e s s a ri l y i n s e c u ri t y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. J a . O k a y.
A D V N O T S H E S C : A n d t h e n C h a i r, o n p a g e 2 3 t h e . . . M r v a n
Biljon

tells

the

p h o t o g ra p h s

and

C o m m i s si o n
on

pages

that

on

page

23

and

24,

was
he

shown

confirms

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
20

CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r ry.

thought you were at page 40.

I was at page 40 when... I
I a m n o t re f e rri n g t o C L R . A t

p a g e 4 0 , w h e n I t h o u g h t y o u w e r e . . . I t h o u g h t y o u w e re a t
p a r a g ra p h 8 .
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s, a t p a r a g ra p h 8 . Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
Page 29 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
ADV NOTSHE SC:

No, what I wanted... so I beg your

pardon.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e g o i n g t o a n n e x u r e s.
ADV NOTSHE SC: I beg your pardon.
had

removed

the

st a t e m e n t

instead

What I had done is I
of

m o vi n g

to

the

a ff i d a vi t . I w a s re a d i n g f r o m t h e . . . n o , w h i c h i s f i n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u ca n g o t o t h e a ff i d a vi t b e c a u s e t h a t

i s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
ADV NOTSHE SC:
10

Ye s.

No, I am going back to the

a ff i d a vi t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

N o w h e c o n f i rm s t h a t t h e p h o t o g r a p h s

t h a t w e re s e n t t o h i m , i s t h e p h o t o g r a p h o f t h e “ h o u s e t h a t
w e v i si t e d ”.
also

And then he confirmed that in addition, he was

p r o vi d e d

with

the

deeds

of

this document

of

that

a d d r e s s a n d t h e r e i s a d e e d r e g i st r y e xt ra ct w h i c h g i v e s t h e
o w n e r s o f t h e r e si d e n c e a s M r a n d M r s M o k o e n a .
A n d o n t h e a ff i d a vi t a n d o n t h e d o c u m e n t , t h e i r n a m e s
a n d I D d o c u m e n t s a r e t h e r e . A n d I , w i t h yo u r l e a v e , I w o u l d
20

not read them into the record but they are.
And then he says that he was informed that Nomvula
M o k o e n a w a s a m i n i st e r o f p a rl i a m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m q u i t e h a p p y f o r yo u t o r e a d a s y o u a r e
re a d i n g .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

I s i t . . . o k a y, I h a v e b e e n i n f o r m e d b y. . . I
Page 30 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
a m n o w a t p a r a g r a p h 1 0 C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
“I

have

been

informed

by

the

C o m m i s si o n ’s

i n v e st i g a t i n g t e a m t h a t N o m v u l a P a u l a M o k o e n a w a s
a

m i n i st e r

Government.

of

p a rl i a m e n t

in

the

South

A f ri c a n

I h a v e c h e c ke d a n o p e n s o u r c e m e d i a

w h e r e i t i s re p o rt e d t h a t a ce rt a i n M o k o e n a w a s t h e
h u sb a n d o f M s N o m vu l a a n d d i e d i n A p ri l 2 0 1 9 .
10

At the time I was unaware that the house in Blouberg
Street

belonged

to

or

was

occupied

by

M i n i st e r

Mokoena.
T h e f a ct t h a t t h e re w e r e t w o p o l i c e o ff i c e r s a t t h e
m a i n g a t e , o b vi o u sl y, a l e rt e d m e t o t h e f a ct t h a t i t
w a s o c cu p i e d b y s o m e o n e i m p o rt a n t .
O n o n e o c c a si o n I w a s c a l l e d t o t h e h o u s e o n e
e v e n i n g t o a t t e n d t o t h e b a c k u p p o w e r s y st e m w h e r e
t h e g e n e r a t o r s y st e m w o u l d n o t st a r t a n d m e t s u c h .
H e w a s a f ri e n d l y g u y b u t h e d i d n o t m e n t i o n h i s
20

s u r n a m e a n d d i d n o t m e n t i o n h i s w i f e ’s p o si t i o n .
O n m o st o c c a si o n s, M r l e R o u x m e t o n si t e a t 1 0 5
Blouberg Street and he showed me what needed to
be done.
I t h i n k i n a l l o f t h e t i m e t h a t I d i d w o r k a t t h i s si t e ,
t h e r e w a s p o s si b l e t w o o c c a si o n s w h e r e I w e n t t o t h e
Page 31 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
B l o u b e r g si t e w i t h o u t M r l e R o u x b e i n g p r e s e n t , a n d
b e l o w i s a l i st o f s o m e o f t h e t h i n g s I re c a l l e d d o i n g
a t t h e h o u se :
-

I re p a i r e d a n d r e p ro g r a m m e d t h e g e n e r a t o r c h a n g e
o v e r.

-

I re p l a ce d t h e d i s t ri b u t i o n b o a rd f o r t h e s w i m m i n g
pool.

-

R e p l a ce d t h e o u t si d e st a i r l i g h t s l e a d i n g t o t h e
house.

10

-

R e p a i r e d t h e e l e c t ri c f e n ce , c a l l e d o u t t o r e p a i r a i r
c o n d i t i o n e r s y st e m o n e n i g h t .

-

Called out to repair the generator one night.

-

And

re p l a c e d

and

rewired

some

of

the

water

f e a t u r e s.
I w o u l d e st i m a t e t h a t I w e n t t o t h e si t e t o p e rf o r m
w o r k t h e re o n a p p ro x i m a t e l y t e n o c c a si o n s.
I h a ve s e a r ch e d f o r a n d l o c a t e d c e rt a i n q u o t at i o n s
a n d i n v o i ce s f o r w o r k p e rf o r m e d t h e i n v o i c e s.

And

t h e n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.

I t h i n k yo u c a n j u st r e a d t h a t a s w e l l

b e ca u s e t h e r e i s s o m e si g n i f i c a n c e b e ca u s e h e g i ve s d e t a i l s
of what work was done.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e g i v e s t h e p ri c e s a s w e l l .
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s. T h e f i r st i n v o i c e i s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
Page 32 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e g i v e s d a t e s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON: ...for when the work was done.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
quoted

a s. . .

Ye s, t h e f i r st i n v o i c e , h e h a s. . . t h r e e i s

3232UE

and

it

se e m s

to

be

the

9 t h o f O ct o b e r 2 0 1 4 a n d t h e i n vo i ce q u o t a t i o n m a d e t o “ c a s h
– R i c a r d ”.

A n d t h e n t y p e o f w o r k d o n e ” “ i n s p e ct a n d r o t a t e

alternator” and it is R 750,00.
And
10

the

s e co n d

i n vo i c e

i s,

323

invoice.

It

is

1 5 O ct o b e r 2 0 1 4 , “ ca s h – R i c a r d ; t h e g e n e r a t o r i s t e s t e d a n d
is hundred percent operational.

A s e p a r a t e t e st r e p o rt w i l l

b e m a d e ”, a n d i t i s R 7 5 0 , 0 0 .
A n d t h e n a n o t h e r 3 2 3 , t h e 1 0 t h o f O ct o b e r 2 0 1 4 , “ c a s h –
R i c a rd ; r e p l a c e p o o l D B a t R 2 9 9 9 , 2 3 ”.
T h e n e xt i n v o i c e i s 3 2 3 a n d 1 5 O ct o b e r 2 0 1 4 , “ ca s h –
R i c a rd ; r e p l a c e p o o l D B a n d i t i s R 2 7 4 1 , 8 9 ”.
A n d t h e n t h e n e x t i n vo i c e i s 1 6 1 re p a i r s t o l i g h t n i n g ”.
T h e n r e f e r a n d t h e n “l a b o u r, n o rm a l t i m e , B l o u b e r g ” a n d i t i s
R 6 609,00.
20

And
Blouberg

then

another

Street

“t h e

i n vo i ce
e xt r a

1

lights

and
at

5,

3rd May 2015,

B l o u b e rg ”.

It

is

R 1 044,70.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V N O T S H E S C : A n d h e m a k e s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

. . . j u st n o t i n g h e r e , t h e b o a r d r o o m t h e r e o f
Page 33 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
t h e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V N O T S H E S C : H e m a k e s. . . a n d h e m a k e s a n o t e , C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m?
ADV NOTSHE SC:
Q324QUE

and

I t i s a d o c u m e n t st a t e o n m y s y st e m a s

241

invoice.

H o w e v e r,

the

documents

re f e rr e d t o 3 2 3 Q U E a n d 3 2 3 I n v o i c e w h i c h a p p e a re d t o b e
h a ve b e e n a d m i t t e d i n e rr o r.
He goes on to say:
“Copies
10

of

these

quotations

and

attached hereto as Annexures RB3.

i n vo i ce s

are

A n d i t m u st b e

n o t e d t h a t c e rt a i n o f t h e se m a y n o t h a v e b e e n t h e
f i n a l d o c u m e n t s s e n t o u t t o M r l e R o u x.
With regards to invoice dated 15 October 2014, in the
t a b l e a b o v e , w h e re i t i s st a t e d “ g e n e r a t o r h a s b e e n
t e st e d a n d i s h u n d r e d p e r c e n t o p e r a t i o n a l ”, I a l s o
m a n a g e d t o l o c a t e a c o p y o f t h e g e n e r a t o r t e st r e p o rt
w h i c h i s a t t a c h e d h e r e t o a s A n n e x u r e RV B 4 .
T h e g e n e r a t o r t e st re p o rt r e f l e ct s t h e a d d re s s a s
b e i n g . . . (a n d t h e n g i v e s t h e a d d r e s s ) a n d t h e d a t e o f
20

i n s p e ct i o n , 1 0 / 1 5 / 2 0 1 4 . . . ”
C h a i r, I t h i n k t h e r e i s t h e A m e ri c a n s y st e m o f p u t t i n g t h e
month before the date. I think it is the 15th.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh.

O h , y e s.

O k a y.

Ye s.

We c a n sa y

t h a t t h e a d d r e s s t h a t h e g i ve s t h e r e o f t h e h o u s e i s t h e
. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
Page 34 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
A D V N O T S H E S C : I s t h e h o u s e . . . t h a t w a s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . i s t h e a d d r e s s t h a t y o u vi si t e d .
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m . Ye s ?
A D V N O T S H E S C : C h a i r, t o c o m p l e t e h i s a ff i d a vi t . H e s a y s:
“I p e rf o r m e d s e r v i c e s f o r B o s a s a u n d e r M r l e R o u x
f o r a p p r o xi m a t e l y M a y 2 0 1 4 t o 2 0 1 8 .
Over

these

y e a r s,

I

e st i m a t e

that

I

p e rf o rm e d

s e r v i ce s a t a p p r o xi m a t e l y f o u r si t e s .
10

I re c a l l t h a t I p e r f o r m e d w o r k a t M r G a vi n Wa t s o n ’s
h o u s e , w h e r e I re p l a c e d c e rt a i n p l u g p o i n t s.
Mr

Wa t s o n

a rri v e d

w h i l st

I

was

on

si t e

and

he

introduced himself to me.
I

no

longer

have

the

b u si n e s s

and

ever

si n c e

immigrated.
I d o n o t h a v e d o c u m e n t a t i o n r e f l e ct i n g t h e d e t a i l o f
a l l t h e w o r k I p e rf o r m e d a n d I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r e v e r y
j o b I p e rf o r m e d . ”
I t i s a s w o rn st a t e m e n t . C h a i r, h e r e t h e . . . m y j u n i o r h a s
20

re f e rr e d m e t o . . . t h e r e i s a n i s s u e t h a t h e r a i s e d o f t h e n a m e
o f t h e b u si n e s s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o e s i t n o t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V N O T S H E S C : H e . . . o n 3 . 2 o f t h e a ff i d a vi t .
CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 3.2?
ADV NOTSHE SC: 3.2.
Page 35 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ?
A D V N O T S H E S C : O n p a g e 3 8 , i t i s S a n i m o E l e ct ri c a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , ye s. Ye s.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V N O T S H E S C : I a p o l o g i s e , C h a i r. I a l s o h a d r e a d i t b u t
w i t h t h e b l o o d ri n g i n g i n m y e a r s a n d i n m y e y e s, I c o u l d n o t
re c a l l w h e r e t h e n a m e a n d w h e r e I h a d f o u n d i t i n t h e
a ff i d a vi t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : U m . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
ADV

NOTSHE

SC:

C h a i r,

ca n

I

beg

l e a ve

to

h a ve

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m l o o ki n g f o r R B . . . RV B 4 .

Where is

RV B 4 ?
A D V N O T S H E S C : [ N o a u d i b l e r e p l y]
CHAIRPERSON: I cannot see an annexure marked RVB4.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
20

L e t m e j u st . . . C h a i r, c a n I a l s o e x p l a i n

w h a t t h e p r o b l e m a l so m a y. . . w e h a ve i s. . . C h a i r, y o u w i l l
n o t e . . . j u st b e a r w i t h m e .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m?
A D V N O T S H E S C : J u st b e a r o n e m i n u t e w i t h m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u w i l l s e e a t p a g e 4 3 t h e C o m m i s si o n e r

o f O a t h s s a y s t h i s i s t h e d o c u m e n t m a r k e d A r e f e rr e d t o i n
Page 36 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
t h e a ff i d a v i t o f R e n i e r va n B i l j o n b u t I d o n o t r e m e m b e r
that...
M E C H A N I C A L I N T E R R U P TI O N
ADV

NOTSHE

SC:

...what

the

A u st r a l i a n . . .

the

New

Z e a l a n d e r s d i d C h a i r i s, t h e y d i d n o t g i ve t h e a n n e x u r e s t h e
n u m b e r t h a t i s i n t h e a ff i d a vi t .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

F o r a s a l l t h e i n vo i c e s i n st e a d o f RV,

t h e y g a v e t h e m n u m b e r s A , B , C , D , E , F, G . A n d t h e n . . . b u t
10

i f t h e st a t e m e n t t h a t h e h a s si g n e d . . . t h e st a t e m e n t t h a t h e
h a s si g n e d m a i n t a i n s t h e n u m b e r s t h a t h e h a d g i v e n b u t
t h e se w e r e t h e n . . .

t h e C o m m i s si o n e r o f O a t h s t h e n g a ve

t h e m d i ff e r e n t n u m b e r s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Can

yo u

arrange

that

we

get

s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a vi t f r o m h i m t h a t cl a ri f i e s t h e p o si t i o n t o
s a y t h e d o cu m e n t m a r k e d s o a n d s o b y t h e C o m m i s s i o n e r o f
O a t h s i s a ct u a l l y t h e d o c u m e n t I r e f e r r e d t o a s s o a n d s o i n
m y a ff i d a vi t ?
ADV NOTSHE SC:
20

Ye s.

A ct u a l l y, C h a i r I w o u l d a l s o

a r r a n g e . . . w e m u st a l s o s e e i f h e c a n g e t t o t h e s a m e
C o m m i s si o n e r o f O a t h s w h o c a n c o n f i r m t h e d o c u m e n t . A n d
t h e n C h a i r, c a n I t a k e y o u t o T 1 4 , C R 3 4 . . . 3 7 , I b e g y o u r
pardon?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja?
A D V N O T S H E S C : [ N o a u d i b l e r e p l y]
Page 37 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ?
A D V N O T S H E S C : T h e r e , C h a i r, y o u w i l l s e e t h i s i s t h e t e st ,
t h e g e n e r a t o r t e st r e p o rt t h a t h e r e f e r s t o b u t i t i s l e f t o u t i n
t h e a ff i d a vi t .

P e rh a p s t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t , w e w i l l

deal with that as well.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

S o I j u st w a n t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t

t h e r e i s c o n si st e n c y b e t w e e n w h a t t h e a ff i d a vi t sa y s a n d
what the annexures are marked.
A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , w h a t t h e y a r e m a r k e d a s b e ca u s e i f t h e
a ff i d a vi t s a y s a c e rt a i n d o c u m e n t i s m a r k e d R B . . . R V B 4 a n d
y o u g o t o t h e a n n e x u r e s a n d y o u d o n o t f i n d RV B 4 , y o u a r e
e n t i t l e d t o t h i n k t h e r e i s n o RV B 4
A D V N O T S H E S C : I t a k e y o u r. . . I t a k e yo u r p o i n t , C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o w e j u st n e e d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h a t i s

s o rt e d o u t .
A D V N O T S H E S C : I t a k e y o u r p o i n t , C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
20

Th e n w i t h y o u r l e a v e , c a n t h e st a t e m e n t

a n d t h e . . . t h e st a t e m e n t a n d t h e n t h e a ff i d a vi t b e a d m i t t e d a s
Exhibits T14 and T15?
A n d t h e n C h a i r, l e t t h e r e co r d t h e n a l s o r e f l e ct s t h a t a n
a d d i t i o n a l a ff i d a vi t i s s o u g h t t o a l i g n t h e . . . w h a t i s t h e s a i d i n
t h e a ff i d a vi t w i t h t h e e x h i b i t s t h a t t h e w i t n e s s i s r e f e r r i n g t o ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s,

we

have

a l re a d y

Page 38 of 90

admitted

them,

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
Exhibit D14 and Exhibit D15. I think or have we not?
A D V N O T S H E S C : N o , I t h i n k. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : We h a v e m a r ke d E x h i b i t T 1 5 .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

C h a i r, yo u d i d m a k e a ru l i n g t o t h a t

e ff e ct .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V N O T S H E S C : B u t i t i s f o r co m p l e t e n e s s s a k e , y e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. A l ri g h t .
ADV NOTSHE SC:
10

C h a i r, t h e n t h e w i t n e s s c a n . . . c a n I

re q u e st t h a t t h e w i t n e s s b e s w o rn i n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV NOTSHE SC: Before we...
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s,

please

a d m i n i st e r

the

oath

a ff i rm a t i o n . I s e e t h e l i g h t i n g i s t a k i n g l o n g t o a r ri v e .
A D V N O T S H E S C : A p p a re n t l y C h a i r, i t w i l l b e s e t u p d u ri n g
t e a -t i m e . U n l e s s t h e C h a i r w o u l d w a n t u s t o a d j o u rn n o w ? I t
i s e l e v e n o ’ cl o c k.
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l , i f i t i s re a d y, w e c o u l d a d j o u r n n o w

s o t h a t i t i s s o rt e d o u t i f t h e y a r e h e re a n d i t i s r e a d y.
20

A D V N O T S H E S C : A n d t h e n w e ca n c o m e b a c k a t q u a rt e r. . .
c o m e b a c k a t q u a rt e r. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t q u a rt e r p a st . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V N O T S H E S C : A t q u a rt e r p a st e l e v e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y w a n t t o t e l l y o u so m e t h i n g .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

N o , t h e n . . . I a m a d vi s e d t h a t t h e b e st i s
Page 39 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
t o p r o c e e d a s w e a r e p ro c e e d i n g . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON: Ja?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

. . . so t h a t t h e y c a n t a k e t h e f i f t e e n

m i n u t e s b e t w e e n n o w a n d t e a a d j o u rn m e n t . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l ri g h t .
A D V N O T S H E S C : . . . t o s e t t h e m se l v e s u p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l ri g h t . O k a y a d m i n i st e r t h e o a t h o r
a ff i rm a t i o n .
R E G I S T R A R : P l e a s e st a t e y o u r f u l l n a m e s f o r t h e r e c o r d .
10

M R L E R O U X : C h a rl J a c q u e s L e R o u x.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e ct i o n i n t a k i n g t h e

p r e s c ri b e d o a t h ?
MR LE ROUX: No.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n si d e r t h e o a t h t o b e b i n d i n g o n

y o u r c o n s ci e n ce ?
M R L E R O U X : Ye s.
REGISTRAR:

Do you swear that the evidence you will give

w i l l b e t h e t ru t h , t h e w h o l e t r u t h a n d n o t h i n g e l s e b u t t h e
t ru t h ?
20

I f so , p l e a s e r a i s e y o u r ri g h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p

me God.
M R L E R O U X : Ye s. A n d s o h e l p m e G o d .
R E G I S T R A R : T h a n k yo u .
C H A R L J A C Q U E S L E R O U X: ( d . s. s. )
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you, you may be seated.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Mr le Roux, is it correct you were
Page 40 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
contacted by the investigators of the Commission?

The

investigator of the Commission at some stage talked to
you?
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

A s a r e s u l t o f t h e i n t e r v i e w, y o u m a d e

a statement.
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And you have the statement in front of

you?
10

MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , I d o .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

C h a i r, t h e s t a t e m e n t i s T 1 3 .

It is

EXHIBIT T13.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yes, it has been admitted already, his

affidavit.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Can you then go through and read the

statement for the Commission?
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no, he must not read the statement,

ask him to tell the story.

I think he was employed by his

cousin or somebody, Mr van Biljon.
20

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Mr van Biljon (indistinct – recording

distorted) background or how did you get to be involved in
this?
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s , I w o r k e d f o r … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]
Mr le Roux, he will ask you questions

m o s t o f t h e t i m e b u t w h e n y o u g i v e a n a n s w e r, f a c e m e ?
Page 41 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:

I will do that.
Ye s ,

o k a y.

Yo u

were

–

were

you

employed at some stage by a company that was owned by
Mr van Biljon?
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .
What was the name of the company?
SAN Electrical.
SAN Electrical?
Electrical, yes.
H e g i v e s i n h i s a f f i d a v i t a f u l l n a m e f o r,

SAN, is Samina or something?
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s , t h a t i s i t , w e j u s t u s e d t h e

shorter version, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

From when up to when were you

employed by that company?
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

I t w a s f r o m m i d - 2 0 1 4 u n t i l l a s t y e a r.
Until last year?
Ye s , y e s , m i d d l e o f l a s t y e a r.
Ja.

What was your position in his

company?
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:

I was learning to become an electrician?
Are you a qualified electrician?
No, no, not yet.
Ye s , b u t y o u k n o w - y o u a r e a b l e t o d o

some electrical work?
Page 42 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s , y e s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d t h a t i s w h a t y o u w e r e a s s i s t i n g

him with.
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s .

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, t a k e i t f r o m t h e r e , M r N o t s h e .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And then did you then do some work

on then the instructions of Mr van Biljon?
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:
10

And as you must have heard during the

interaction with the Chairperson that we want to stay away
from giving the full addresses of the work you did.

Is it

c o r r e c t t h a t y e s t e r d a y, y o u t o g e t h e r w i t h t h e i n v e s t i g a t o r s ,
the legal team for the Commission and …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y, M r N o t s h e , b e f o r e y o u c o m e

t o y e s t e r d a y, I w o u l d l i k e t o h e a r h i m t a l k a b o u t w h a t h e
did at the address that you - we are not mentioning at that
t i m e b e f o r e y o u c o m e t o y e s t e r d a y.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

N o , C h a i r, w i t h y o u r l e a v e , I j u s t

wanted him to confirm he went to a place.
20

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ja.
Where he did some work.
Ye s .
And then we go back to…
O h , o k a y, o k a y, o k a y, t h a t i s f i n e .
Yo u v i s i t e d a h o u s e i n K r u g e r s d o r p .
Page 43 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And that house you visited, did you do

any work on the house?
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s , w e d i d s o m e w o r k .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Can you tell the Chairperson about the

work you did?
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s , I c a n .

We fixed som e lights

there, outside lights on the staircase and the water feature
and the power system
10

would

not – the backup power

system would not start and we fixed that as well.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

And what was wrong with the – with

what you had fixed, what you were fixing?

If you went

there, what did you find wrong with the issues that you
fixed?
MR LE ROUX:

Automatic changeover would not work on

the backup system and we fixed that and then the outside
lights, it was not working, any of them, so we took them
out and put new ones in.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
20

Now can you just tell the Commission,

when you went there for the first time did you make any
observations when you entered the house, the premises?
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s .

There was – I could see on that

high fencing there and there was guardhouse there with a
man there that opened for us when we came there.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Now just stop there.
Page 44 of 90

The guardhouse,

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
when you entered the premises, on which side is the
guardhouse?
MR LE ROUX:

On the left side.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s .

Yo u e n t e r e d t h e p r e m i s e s , w a s

there any other thing you noticed?
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s , w h e n w e w o r k e d t h e r e , I n o t i c e d

there was an expensive car there, an Aston Martin.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
MR LE ROUX:
10

S o r r y, I d i d n o t g e t t h a t ?
I noticed there was an expensive car

there, an Aston Martin.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s , A s t o n M a r t i n .

ADV NOTSHE SC:
MR LE ROUX:

Is that then the name of the car?

Where was the car?

I t w a s i n t h e m i d d l e g a r a g e d o o r.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Wa s i t s t a n d i n g t h e r e o n i t s o w n a n d

how was it standing there? How was it parked there?
MR LE ROUX:

It was covered with a special car cover so

I just looked at it and looked because I like cars.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Did you go to that house once or more

than once prior to yesterday?
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:

I am not sure, it was many times.
Ye s , o k a y.

N o w, a s f a r a s p o s s i b l e I

want you to tell me – give me your evidence from your
recollection but your statement, your affidavit is there in
c a s e y o u w a n t t o r e f r e s h y o u r m e m o r y.
Page 45 of 90

Are you able to

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
remember what you went to do on the first occasion you
went there?
MR LE ROUX:

On the first time we just …[intervenes]

CHAIRPERSON:

And you can look at your affidavit to

refresh your memory and Mr Notshe can assist you in
terms of where that – in which paragraph that is dealt with,
i f n e c e s s a r y.
MR LE ROUX: If you look at …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
10

So want you to tell me on the first

occasion I went there, this is what was wrong, I had been
instructed to do a, b, c, d. I went there, I did it or I did not
do it, for whatever reason.

On the next occasion again –

you might not need to deal with all of them but at least
some of them.
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , I c a n d o t h a t .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s .
Ye s , t h e f i r s t m o r n i n g I m e t t h e r e w i t h M r

le Roux and then he showed us that the backup power
system does not work. So we then had a look at it but then
20

I left and Mr van Biljon, he went back and he fixed it.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Can you -do you remember when, what

y e a r, w h a t m o n t h , w h a t d a t e w a s t h a t ?
MR LE ROUX:

I am not hundred percent sure.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

I see.

CHAIRPERSON:

But would you remember the year?
Page 46 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
Would

you

remember

the

y e a r,

even

if

you

do

not

remember the month or the date?
MR LE ROUX:

2014, it was just when I started working,

about, ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And then on another occasion - you

say you left then, Mr Biljon went back and then?
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , t h e n I w e n t t h e r e t h e n e x t t i m e , t h e y

said the outside lights on the walkway to the house does
10

not work.

It was the lights on the staircase and the lights

were – or they were no longer working, so we took them
out and put new lights in.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
MR LE ROUX:

In the house or outside the house?

Outside the house.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

I see.

What year was this?

Do you

remember?
MR LE ROUX:

A l s o , t h a t s a m e y e a r.

ADV NOTSHE SC:
MR LE ROUX:
20

And then, the next occasion?

It was in that same week we were there to

fix the – there is the small water feature there, it was not
working.

We pumped out all the water so we could put a

new pump in there and then – and there was lights on the
outside entertainment area that we fixed, down lights in the
ceiling.
CHAIRPERSON:

Now before you talk about the third
Page 47 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
occasion or one of the occasions, another one of the
occasions when you went there, can you just go back to
describing some of the features of the premises at that
house or at that address that you had seen and you had
included in your affidavit?
So

I

am

leaving

out

what

you

may

have

seen

y e s t e r d a y, M r N o t s h e w i l l c o m e t o t h a t i n d u e c o u r s e .
W h a t y o u d i d r e c a l l b e f o r e y e s t e r d a y, w h e n y o u d e p o s e d t o
your affidavit to say this is what you rem em bered about the
10

house.

Did you remember about the – did you remember

the guardhouse?
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s , g u a r d h o u s e , t h e r e w a s o n e g u a r d

there.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
He was always there, he opened for us.
Oh, was it the same person?

When you

went there was it the same guy?
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s , y e s , i t w a s .
Ye s ,

y e s t e r d a y j u s t f o r n o w.

yes.

I

am

going

to

jump

to

Did you find the same person

yesterday or it was different?
MR LE ROUX:

I do not remember because it has been

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

I t h a s b e e n a l o n g t i m e , o k a y.

you do not know whether it was the same guy or not.
Page 48 of 90

So

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no.
O k a y.
I d o n o t k n o w.
So the guardhouse, where in relation to

the gate is the guardhouse, as you remember it from that
time, leaving out the fact that you say it yesterday?
MR LE ROUX:

It is – when you walk into the main gate it

is on the left-hand side.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:

It is on the left hand side.
Ye s .
What other features of the house did you

remember before yesterday which you included in your
affidavit?
MR LE ROUX:

I just know it was a big house and a pool

was there.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s .
And the generator that we worked on, it

was behind the house.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:

It was behind the house.
Ye s .
T h e g e n e r a t o r.
Ye s a n d i t h a d a s m a l l b o a r d t h a t s w i t c h e s

it on and off, it was inside next to an open garage.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

And one of the occasions your

affidavit says you were working there and you were in the
Page 49 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
g a r a g e a n d y o u s a w s o m e t h i n g . Te l l m e a b o u t t h a t ?
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , I w o r k e d t h e r e t h e n I s a w w h a t l o o k e d

like to be an expensive car and then I looked and I saw it
was an Aston Martin standing there.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d w h a t w a s t h e c o l o u r o f t h e

A s t o n M a r t i n t h a t y o u s a w o n t h a t d a y, 2 0 1 5 o r 2 0 1 4 ?
MR LE ROUX:

It was long – it was too long ago to

r e m e m b e r e x a c t l y.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR LE ROUX:

Ye s .
But I know that it is white, yes.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Well, in your affidavit you say it

was dark or dark blue or black.
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Is that correct?

That is what you say in

your affidavit.
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Does that remind you of how it looked

like? What the colour was?
MR LE ROUX:
20

Ye s , y e s , y e s .

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a l r i g h t .

Mr Notshe, take it from

there.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

C h a i r, I s e e t h e t i m e i s q u a r t e r p a s t

eleven.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh.

Ye s , l e t u s t a k e t h i s – w i l l t h e

ordinary 15 minutes be enough?

Or if it is not enough, I

Page 50 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
will be told.

So we will adjourn until half past eleven but if

they are not done sorting out the light then I will be told.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

We will send a message.
Ye s , w e a d j o u r n .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Thank you.

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Mr le Roux, you are just reminded you

are still under oath.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, you are still under oath, Mr le Roux.

Will the personnel of the Commission try and arrange a
light that can put here on the desk?

I did ask that this be

d o n e s o m e t i m e b a c k . O k a y, l e t u s c o n t i n u e .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

N o w, M r l e R o u x , y o u w e r e t e l l i n g t h e

Commission about – that you went in and you saw a motor
vehicle in the garage.

What is the colour of the – do you

remember the colour of the motor vehicle you saw?
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , I a m r e a l l y – I a m t o l d i t w a s d a r k a n d

that it was a long, long time ago, so I was not sure.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

But in your affidavit which was deposed

to on the 17 March 2020 you gave the colour of the motor
vehicle as I think that blue or black.
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , t h a t i s c o r r e c t .
How did you remember the colour then?

How did you remember the colour in March but you seem to
Page 51 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
h a v e d i f f i c u l t y t e l l i n g u s t h e c o l o u r n o w.
MR LE ROUX:

No, no, it was – I mean because yesterday

I had a look on the car and I saw that it was in fact white.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:

Just repeat that?
Ye s t e r d a y I d i d h a v e a l o o k a t t h e c a r a n d

I saw that it was white and that in March my memory – I
told you that it was either dark blue or black.
CHAIRPERSON:

Did

you say that

when

you saw it

yesterday that it was white?
10

MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
So it was not blue or dark blue?
No, no.
Or black?
No, it was not.
Oh.

O k a y, b u t – s o y o u s e e i n M a r c h

your recollection was that you had seen an Aston Martin in
the garage of the residence and that it was dark blue or
black.
MR LE ROUX:
20

CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
That is what your recollection was?
Ye s , y e s .
But you say yesterday you saw an Aston

Martin at the residence concerned but the colour was
white?
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s .
Page 52 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, M r N o t s h e , d o y o u w a n t t o t a k e i t

from there?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

And that make of the car was it that

you saw yesterday?
MR LE ROUX:

Aston Martin.

ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. N o w … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]
I a m s o r r y, w h e n y o u s a w a w h i t e A s t o n

Martin yesterday did you recall that the Aston Martin you
had seen in 2014 or 2015 at the same residence was white
10

or you assumed that it was white and was the same car?
MR LE ROUX:

It might be a newer version of that same

model, I am not sure.
CHAIRPERSON:

Now dark blue or black car is quite

d i f f e r e n t f r o m a w h i t e c a r, t h o s e c o l o u r s a r e v e r y d i f f e r e n t .
How does it come about that …[intervenes]
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s …
Yo u r r e c o l l e c t i o n i n M a r c h w a s t h a t t h e

car you had seen was dark blue or black but now you –
now that you have seen a white one, you do not seem to be
20

confident whether the one you had seen was dark blue or
black.
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s , t h a t i s i t .
How does it come about - I would have

thought that if something was white or if the car that you
had seen was white or was black it would be quite easy to
Page 53 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
r e m e m b e r t h a t y o u h a d n o t s e e n a w h i t e c a r, y o u h a d s e e n
a black car or blue car rather than not being sure.
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s , t h e y h a d m a n y c a r s a t t h a t h o u s e

that was dark so my memory just said that it had to be dark
as well.
CHAIRPERSON:

But would that be anything that you

noticed that convinced you that the car you saw yesterday
was the same car you say in 2014 or 2015 or could it be
that the car you saw yesterday is a different car from the
10

one that you saw in 2014 or 2015?
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , i t m i g h t b e a d i f f e r e n t c a r, y e s .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:

Yo u a r e n o t s u r e .
I am not sure, no.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . B u t w h a t y o u a r e s u r e a b o u t i s t h a t

the car you had seen was an Aston Martin.
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s , t h a t I a m s u r e o f .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . M r N o t s h e ?

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Just on that, Mr le Roux, how long –

how much time did you have and how long did it take you
20

t o l o o k a t t h e c a r, d i d y o u o p e n t h e c o v e r, s p e n d t i m e
l o o k i n g a t i t o r u j u s t l i f t e d t h e e n c l o s e d c a r, t h e c o v e r ?
MR LE ROUX:

I just lifted it and looked at it and closed it

again.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s .
A n d a t t h e t i m e – s o r r y, C h a i r, i t i s –
Page 54 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
C h a i r, I m u s t j u s t a p o l o g i s e b e c a u s e o f t h e d i s t a n c e n o w
and again I have to run back and forth and I apologise for
that.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

No, I understand yes, because of

the social distancing.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
S o I u n d e r s t a n d . I t i s o k a y, i t i s o k a y.

ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

It is good for exercising.
She might not like your suggestion that

she needs exercise.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

That is the – the issue I was with, Mr

le Roux, is you say you just lifted this and then closed it
again.
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

I see.

N o w, t e l l m e , w h e n y o u w e n t

t h e r e , w h e n y o u l o o k e d a t t h e c a r, d i d y o u l o o k a t i t w i t h
the purpose of observing it so that you can report about
t h e c o l o u r o f t h e c a r a n d t h e c o v e r, y o u w e r e j u s t l o o k i n g
at it for interest sake?
20

MR LE ROUX:

No, no, I just looked out of interest to see

w h a t i s u n d e r n e a t h t h e c o v e r, t h a t i s a l l .
ADV NOTSHE SC:

I see.

Now this other point you raised

in your statement; how did you get to the premises?
did

you

get

to

the

premises?

When

you

get

premises, outside the premises, how do you get in?
Page 55 of 90

to

How
the

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
MR LE ROUX:

There is a man that works there in the

guard room, he opens for us.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

How do you communicate with him to

open for you?
MR LE ROUX:

I just hoot.

ADV NOTSHE SC:
MR LE ROUX:

I see. And then he would open?

Then he would open, yes.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

In the time that you were there did he

ask you why you were there, what you would do, what you
10

were looking for?
MR LE ROUX:

No, no, nothing, he just let us in and we

would do what …[intervenes]
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Yo u w o u l d h o o t a n d t h e y w o u l d o p e n

for you.
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:
MR LE ROUX:

And you go in and do the work.

Ye s , y e s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

O k a y.

Te l l m e , t h e v a n y o u w e r e

driving from SAN Electrical did it have a marking on the
20

side to show where it was from?
MR LE ROUX:

No markings, no.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

So you did not identify yourself to the

person at the gate?
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no, I did not.
Excuse me, a guard at the gate is
Page 56 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
supposed to only allow family members in and if it is
people who are not family members you would have – or if
you would have to check that the person is authorised to
come into the premises, I think.

How could the guard – do

you know why the guard would just open for you without
asking you questions?
MR LE ROUX:

I think that he recognised my car and he

opened for us because he had seen us there in the past
working.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, n o , I c a n n o t h e a r t h a t .

Would you

please just repeat what you said?
MR LE ROUX:

I think he would open for us because he

would recognise my car as I had worked there on other
days when he was there as well.
CHAIRPERSON:

Let us talk about the first occasion you

went there. Did you go there alone?
MR LE ROUX:

No, no, I went there and then Richard was

there as well.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:

Mr Richard le Roux?
Ye s , y e s .
Did he arrive at the premises first so

that when you arrived, he was already inside?
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , s i r.
How did – what happened before you

e n t e r e d , d i d y o u h o o t o n t h a t d a y, d i d y o u n o t h o o t o r w h a t
Page 57 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
h a p p e n e d ? Te l l m e a b o u t t h a t .
MR LE ROUX:

No, no, it was open and then I saw him

standing inside of the main gate.
CHAIRPERSON:

Mr Richard le Roux was standing on the

inside of the gate?
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

So he was – so he would have spoken to

the guard to say he must let you in.
MR LE ROUX:
10

I can get in, yes.

CHAIRPERSON:

But you say as you approached the gate

the gate was already open or it opened as you were
approaching?
MR LE ROUX:

It was open, yes.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t M r l e R o u x w a s t h e r e a n d t h e

guard was there.
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s .
And then you just went in.
Ye s .
Ja.

Now on the subsequent occasion

when you came after that without Mr le Roux being there –
because I take it there were occasions when you came
without Mr le Roux, is that right?
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s , t h e r e w a s .
And do you remember whether the first

or second occasion you went to the premises Mr le Roux
Page 58 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
was there or not?
MR LE ROUX:

No, I am not …[intervenes]

CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:

Or you cannot remember?
I am not sure, no.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t w h e n y o u c a m e a f t e r t h a t f i r s t

occasion without Mr le Roux being there, did the guards
just open to you after identifying your car?
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s , h e d i d .

CHAIRPERSON:
10

Did you always go there in the same

car?
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , I d i d .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y. M r N o t s h e ?

ADV NOTSHE SC:

T h a n k y o u , C h a i r.

can you also deal with something here.

N o w, M r l e R o u x ,
On T13

page 205,

t h a t i s t h e s t a t e m e n t , p a r a g r a p h 1 6 , y o u s a y, I a m r e a d i n g
from your statement …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV

NOTSHE

I a m s o r r y, w h e r e ?
SC:

On

T13,

CR05,

Chairperson,

paragraph 16 of the witness’s statement.
20

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV NOTSHE SC:

H i s a f f i d a v i t , p a r a g r a p h 1 6 . Ye s , o k a y.
H i s a f f i d a v i t . Yo u s a y t h e r e :

“On an occasion during 2017 or 2018 I was again
contacted, Mr van Biljon, to go to premises situated
in Blouberg Street where I was to meet Mr le Roux.”
Now during this evidence this morning, you said you first
Page 59 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
went there in 2014. Can you explain this?
MR LE ROUX:

Unless it is just – it might have been after

the initial visit for some extra work.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
MR LE ROUX:

I beg your pardon?

In my affidavit it was after we went there

for the first time.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
MR LE ROUX:

So, the first time was 2014?

Ye s , y e s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:
10

And thereafter you went in 2017 and

2018?
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Now whilst we are on your affidavit, so

you – or before we go there, is it correct that after you
have spoken to the investigators you were then shown
s o m e p i c t u r e s , p h o t o s . Yo u w e r e s h o w n s o m e p h o t o s .
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Can you turn to page 12 of your – it is

called CR2 and it is on page 12, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

There is a picture there of – you were

shown the picture?
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s , I w a s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Chairperson, can I just pause there

just to explain this. These were taken by and shown to the
witness by Mr Groenewald.

We have his statement and he

Page 60 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
is also physically indisposed but this witness I would want
to discuss Mr Groenewald’s statement with him.
CHAIRPERSON:

Right.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Te l l , m e w h a t i s d e p i c t e d i n t h e p i c t u r e

on the photo?
MR LE ROUX:

It is the house that we worked at.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

I see.

Now on the photo we see -

CR12 – we see something like there is something like

a

gate, what – is the wooden that, can you see?
10

MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s , o n t h e l e f t h a n d t h e r e .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And then you see a roof as you look at

it, where the gates, what roof is that?
MR LE ROUX:

On that roof behind the gate is the guard

room.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Now if you go to – can you go to

CR14, what is depicted on that picture?
MR LE ROUX:

It is also that gate at that guard room.

ADV NOTSHE SC:
MR LE ROUX:
20

The guard room.

ADV NOTSHE SC:
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:

In the…?

The guard room?

And the gate, yes.
I a m s o r r y, M r N o t s h e , w h y d o e s i t l o o k

l i k e t h e s e a n n e x u r e s a r e n o t m a r k e d ? Yo u s e e t h e r e i s a –
I see that is annexure CLR2 but it is much better if on the
actual photograph there is also – it is marked otherwise
Page 61 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
while you are looking at the paragraph and you say by the
way which annexure is this, then you go to…[intervenes]
ADV NOTSHE SC:

I see this.

CHAIRPERSON:

…need to go back a few pages.

O k a y,

but it is annexure CLR2 and annexure CLR3.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, b u t y o u a r e d e a l i n g w i t h C L R 2 , i s

that right?
ADV NOTSHE SC:
10

I am dealing again with CRL2 and then

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u w e n t t o … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]

ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

I m o v e d t o C R L 3 n o w.
O k a y, a l r i g h t .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

My children will be proud of me, I

pronounced three as they always correct, me not tree, I
h a v e m a n a g e d t o p r o n o u n c e i t p r o p e r l y, t h r e e .
CHAIRPERSON:

No, I think there are many people who

p r o n o u n c e t h r e e d i f f e r e n t l y.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
Ye s , w h a t i s t h e p o i n t t h a t w a s m a d e

with reference to CRL2? With the gate?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s , i s t h e g a t e a n d t h e g u a r d h o u s e ,

the roof of the guardhouse.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well, now Mr le Roux, did you say that

before deposing to your affidavit in March you were shown
Page 62 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
this picture?
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s , t h a t i s r i g h t .

CHAIRPERSON:

And you say the roof that one can see

above the wall, the perimeter wall is the guardhouse.
MR LE ROUX:

It is, yes.

CHAIRPERSON:

But in your affidavit as well as in the

a f f i d a v i t o f M r A g r i z z i , i f I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t l y, b o t h o f y o u
say that the guardhouse is to the left of the gate, is it not?
MR LE ROUX:
10

It is.

CHAIRPERSON:

That does not look me to be to the left of

the gate.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
MR LE ROUX:

C h a i r, i f I m a y … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]

It is the angle that the picture was taken.

CHAIRPERSON:
when

you

look

Well, but do you agree with me that
at

the

structure

that

you

say

is

the

guardhouse, that does not look to be to the left of the gate
or are you saying that it is on the left to the gate or are
you saying it is on the left to the gate?
MR LE ROUX:
20

It is on the left, yes.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

C h a i r, c a n M r l e R o u x t a k e t h e

Chairperson to CLR3?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

I have the same problem on CRL3.

As I see it, it seems to me that the main gate that the
guardhouse is directly – if you get into the gate you would
g o – a n d y o u d i d n o t t u r n r i g h t o r l e f t w i t h t h e c a r, y o u
Page 63 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
would go hit the structure and that would it not be left of
the …[intervenes]
ADV

NOTSHE

SC:

C h a i r,

I

think

the

photographer

...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

It did not come out clearly as – can I

clarify that with the witness, the next step about the visit?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:
10

The witness will confirm and I do not

w a n t t o t e s t i f y f r o m t h e b a r, b u t … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o , n o , t h a t i s f i n e .

Yo u c a n a s k

him questions which will clarify this, if possible.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
Yo u k n o w, t h i s t h i n g b e c o m e s i m p o r t a n t .

I hope that the agreement that was signed also indicates
which side of the gate the guardhouse is because it is
important.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s .

Mr le Roux, it is your CLR3, the

pictures.
20

MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , s i r.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And you were present yesterday when

you went to the house.
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s , I w a s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Now in relation to the gate when you

e n t e r, i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e p e r s o n e n t e r i n g t h e p r e m i s e s ,
Page 64 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
where

on which side will be the – was the guardhouse

yesterday?
MR LE ROUX:

On the left.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And whilst we are on that, can I take

y o u , C h a i r, t o C L R – I t h i n k n o w w e s h o u l d c a l l t h i s T 1 6 .
We have got …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

EXHIBIT T...?

ADV NOTSHE SC:

We have got T13, T14, T15 and then

should be T16. That will be …[intervenes]
10

CHAIRPERSON:

T15, that is Mr Renier van Biljon.

ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

T15 is Mr van Biljon.
Ja.

ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Then can we take it to T16?
I do not think we have T16.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

If we take it as T14 and it was marked

– it was marked as CLR T13, CLRL15.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , w h a t I a m s a y i n g i s I d o n o t t h i n k

there is one that we have admitted and marked as T16.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . N o t y e t .
O k a y, s o w h a t i s t h e d o c u m e n t y o u w a n t

me to go to?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

It is called the memo on inspection in

loco Charl le Roux.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:

What page is it?
It is on CLR15.
Page 65 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:

One five?
One five.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Is the Chairperson with me?

CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y, t h i s i s c o n f u s i n g .

O k a y, j a , I

h a v e g o t t h e m e m o o n p a g e 1 5 . Ye s ?
ADV NOTSHE SC:
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s .

CHAIRPERSON:
10

N o w, M r l e R o u x , a r e y o u o n t h e r e ?

Do you want us to admit this memo?

ADV NOTSHE SC:
Chairperson,

is

This memo as EXHIBIT T16 and this,

handed

up

by

agreement

between

the

parties.
CHAIRPERSON:

It should not be T – if it is here at the

beginning maybe we should make it what, EXHIBIT T12?
Is

there

EXHIBIT

T12

in

another

work

stream

or

something?
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

There is …[intervenes]
I think the memo should come at the

end, the agreement of what was seen yesterday but if you
20

already have put it here in the front...
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Chairperson, we can change that, in

terms of slotting it in.

If the Chair, with your permission,

you can allow us to call it T16 and then it can be arranged
that it is at the end of Mr Charl le Roux’s evidence.
Chairperson,

there

is

a

T12

which

Page 66 of 90

is

the

affidavit

of

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
Richard le Roux.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yes, you suggest that we admit it as

EXHIBIT what?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

T16.

CHAIRPERSON:

H’m?

ADV NOTSHE SC:

T one six.

CHAIRPERSON:

EXHIBIT T one six.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:
10

the top.

I will write EXHIBIT T16 at page 15 at

Okay, yes, so the memo on the inspection in loco

will be admitted as EXHIBIT T16.
MEMO

ON

INSPECTION

IN

LOCO

CHARL

LE

ROUX

HANDED IN AS T16
ADV NOTSHE SC:

A s i t p l e a s e s y o u , C h a i r.

C h a i r, t h e

agreement was that I would read this into the record.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

But with your leave I will read it and

then but in conjunction of the evidence of the witness.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Well, you m ay – you can just read the

whole of the memo.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

And then the witness can then just

confirm because it is agreed, it is something that has been
agreed.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s .

Mr le Roux, I am going to - do

Page 67 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
you have the memorandum of …[intervenes]
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s , I h a v e i t .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

L i s t e n c a r e f u l l y, I a m g o i n g t o r e a d i t

into the record. Just listen carefully and then – so that you
confirm or correct whatever you want to correct.
MR LE ROUX:

O k a y.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Now the memorandum I am reading

relate to:
“The pointing out/inspection in loco by Charl le
10

Roux.

Individuals present, the witness Charl Le

Roux, the Commissioner staff Adv Viwe Notshe, Mr
A l a n N i x o n , M r Ts h e p o M a l e k o , M s R e f i l o e M o l e f e
and then for Mrs Mokonyane, representatives is Adv
L Hodes and Mr G Madlanga.
1. Pointed

by

witness

is

a

high

fence

and

a

guardhouse to the left side at the entrance and
the photographs obtained as annexures A.”’
C h a i r, t h a t p h o t o g r a p h A i s o n p a g e – i t w i l l b e o n p a g e
16.4.
20

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV NOTSHE SC:
“2.

Ye s .
And then:

Generators situated behind the garage in a
cage where the wires fed through the wall
into the garage where they were connected
to the control panel.”
Page 68 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
And that photograph of the generator is on B which is 16.6,
C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And over the page it is:

“Lights fitted on the...”
C h a i r,

the

panel

referred

to,

you

will

see

the

panel

referred to on paragraph 3 as B, it – also it goes over the
page to 16.7, is the panel.

And then over the page of the

m e m o r a n d u m , C h a i r, i t i s :
10

“Lights fitted the side of the walls the either sides
of the stairs that was replaced.”
And

on

16.9,

those

were

the

lights

and

16.10

is

the

staircase. And then for …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
back,

I

think

Hang on one second, can I take you

you

–

what

is

that

16.6?

Is

that

the

generator?
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

C h a i r, j u s t b e a r w i t h m e ?
I think you have left me behind.

ADV NOTSHE SC:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

1 6 . 6 i s t h e g e n e r a t o r.
O k a y.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And then it is connected with16.7,

C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s .

C h a i r, i f y o u w e r e t o g o b a c k ,

C h a i r, t o 1 6 . 6 y o u w i l l s e e n e x t t o t h e g e n e r a t o r t h e r e a r e
Page 69 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
wires which go to into the ground.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And the witness was saying those

wires would then connect to 16.7, the panel on 16.7.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , o k a y.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And then 16.9 are the lights that were

repaired on the staircase and 16.10 is the same staircase
where the lights were repaired.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And then at paragraph on 16.1 is

r e p a i r s o n t h e f o u n t a i n s i t u a t e d i n t h e c o r n e r, t h e w i t n e s s
stated I recall that we had to fit a small pump to the
fountain in order to pump the water out and I think I
repaired some lights at it or in the fountain. That will be
found at 16.12.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Chair can you ignore the colour of the

water and the – its condition.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And then paragraph 5 garage or where

Austin Martin valet covered, where the trampoline was
parked and 16.14.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And then 6 is other features, other

features just identified or pointed out whilst we were there,
Page 70 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
it is the lights in the covered patio were not covered when
the work was done.

The witness whilst we were there

Chairperson, he pointed out lights in the patio and the
lights were, he says but the patio at that stage was not
covered, whereas when we were there it was covered.
CHAIRPERSON:

Mmm.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s , C h a i r y o u w i l l n o t i c e a l s o , I d i d n ’ t

you to this, at 16.15 there is the lifted cover of the car
showing
10

the

Austin

Martin

emblem,

by

agreement

the

registration was redacted, it has a registration but we
agreed for security reasons that we will take it out.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Mr Le Roux you heard me reading

through all this, is this correct, is this what happened when
we were there?
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s i t i s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And then is it in line with the affidavit

and the evidence you gave today?
MR LE ROUX:
20

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Chairperson that is the evidence of Mr

Le Roux.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , w h a t i s a t p a g e 1 6 . 1 7 ?

Is that a

certain line or an X.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Sorry Chair I will get there.

16.7 it is

what is written, it is a manuscript note of the additional
Page 71 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
observation where he says on paragraph, in paragraph 6 of
the memo he says – Chair just bear with me.

Chair it is

just I can’t read the – there is a word I can’t read, oh it is
ceiling. It is the ceiling light in the covered patio.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Which was not covered when the work

was done.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV NOTSHE SC:
10

And then you will see that is the – that

and on 16.8 again it is the ceiling, the lights on the ceiling.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, o k a y.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s c o n t i n u e .

Mr Le Roux do you confirm the

contents of your statement?
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s I d o .

CHAIRPERSON:

From the road if somebody is standing

on the road next to this particular residence or is passing
would they be able to tell whether the guardhouse is to the
left of the gate?

So somebody who has never gone into

the premises can they tell?
20

MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s t h e y c a n .
Yo u c a n s e e f r o m o u t s i d e ?
Ye s .
That it is to the left of the gate?
Ye s y o u c a n .
Ja, would you know it is a guardhouse,
Page 72 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
would somebody know that it is a guardhouse?
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:

I am not sure.
Ja, ja, there is nothing that can tell you

from outside?
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:

No.
Ye s , n o w M r A g r i z z i d e s c r i b e d s o m e o f

the features in his affidavit of the house. One, he said that
the guardhouse is to the left of the gate, which is the same
thing that you have said as well but he mentioned other
10

features that I want to see whether you are able, whether
you did notice those features.

Mr Agrizzi says in his

affidavit deposed to on the 15th of November 2019 in which
he was responding I think to the affidavit – oh no I think he
was dealing with questions that had been posed by me
during the hearing about features of the house as he
recalled them.
He says in paragraph 41 or in 5:
“I am in a position to identify the premises. When I
f i r s t v i s i t e d t o g e t h e r w i t h t h e l a t e G a v i n Wa t s o n t h e
20

guardhouse was a wood structure on the left as you
entered the premises. This was later renovated into
a permanent structure as well.”
When you went to the premises was the structure a wooden
structure or was it already a guardhouse as you saw it
yesterday?
Page 73 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
MR LE ROUX:

I t w a s b u i l t l i k e i t w a s y e s t e r d a y.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:

It was as it was yesterday?
Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

When you went there for the first time it

was not a wood structure.
MR LE ROUX:

No, no.

CHAIRPERSON:
two

garages

Okay and then he says further there are

and

adjacent

to

the

two

garages

is

a

generator room
10

MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
Is that something you did see previously

and, in the house, or maybe also yesterday?
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s .
There are two garages?
I think there is more than – there’s three

garages there.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

garages

is

a

There are three garages, not two?
Ye s .
Okay and he says adjacent to the two
generator

room

with

an

auto

switch

mechanism.
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
Which the Bosasa contractors applied,

the generator was on the outside.
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s .
Page 74 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
CHAIRPERSON:

Are you able to confirm whether his –

what he is saying is true or not?
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:
CHAIRPERSON:

It is yes.
It is true?
It is true ja.
Okay and you must tell me whether you

know this or you don’t know this, he says in paragraph
41.6:
“In order to enter the house, there are a few steps
10

and the first room on the right upon entering is Mr
Mokonyane’s, which is adorned with ANC regalia
and heads from Lesotho.”
The ANC regalia and the heads from Lesotho you might or
m i g h t n o t h a v e n o t i c e d , I d o n ’ t k n o w, b u t h e s a y s t h e f i r s t
room, he says there are a few steps when you enter the
house. He says in order to enter the house there are a few
steps and the first room on the right upon entering is Ms
M o k o n y a n e ’ s s t u d y.

Do you know anything about the steps

that are there, the few steps that you have to use to get to
20

the house, into the house?
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , i s t h a t w h e r e w e p u t t h e l i g h t s , o n

those stairs?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

And he says the first room on the

right after you have entered the house is Ms Mokonyane’s
s t u d y. N o w y o u m i g h t o r m i g h t n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h a t r o o m
Page 75 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
is a study or not, but there is a room that you see on the
right hand side as you enter the house?
MR LE ROUX:

I have never worked inside the house.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:

Inside, so you don’t know that part?
I d o n ’ t k n o w.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, o k a y

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Can I just clarify one issue.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , p l e a s e y e s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:
10

Before the – Mr Le Roux just explain

to the Chairperson about when you say there are three
garages, are they self-standing garages or are they – is it
one big structure with doors?
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s i t i s o n e w i t h m u l t i p l e d o o r s a n d

there is that one small one next to it with the general panel
there.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

Yo u s a y t h e y a r e n o t s e p a r a t e

standalone garages?
MR LE ROUX:

20

Ye s , y e s .

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, i s i t o n e g a r a g e w h i c h c a n t a k e

two

with

cars,

maybe

some

divider

or

maybe

without

divider but can take two cars or it can take three cars.
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s i t i s o n e b i g o n e , i t c a n t a k e t h r e e

cars.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s . S o – b u t i t i s o n e g a r a g e ?
Ye s .
Page 76 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:

But it can take three cars.
Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR LE ROUX:

Ja, so it is not two separate garages.
No.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a l r i g h t .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And then can you just – Mr Le Roux

can you just take the Commission to – Chair can I take you
to TS16 page 16.14, where there is a car covered. Are you
there?
10

MR LE ROUX:

Ye s I a m t h e r e .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Is when you talk about the spaces do

you refer to something like what we see on 16.14?
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s , y e s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Where there is a car parked and then

there is a pillar and then there seems to be a door next to
the ...[intervenes]
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Okay you will just need to go through Mr

Agrizzi’s features that he identifies.
20

We know that the

guardhouse he is confirming.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
But you will just need to see the other

features that Mr Agrizzi identifies in one or more of his
affidavits, see what has been confirmed by this witness,
what has not been confirmed by this witness or what has
Page 77 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
been confirmed by the agreement between the parties and
to the extent that there may be features that have not been
confirmed by this witness that Mr Agrizzi talked about Mr
Agrizzi must be interviewed to – in regard to that and to
the

extent

that

there

may

be

a

need

for

clarification

because he talks about two garages, whether – exactly
what he means when he says two garages, he must be
interviewed so that he can say – explain what he means by
two garages.
10

ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
And then I think you can then approach

Ms Mokonyane’s lawyers to see whether there can be any
agreement

whether

the

fixtures

that

have

not

been

confirmed by this witness which are in Mr Agrizzi’s affidavit
whether they are in a position to confirm them or if they do
not confirm them there may be a need for another visit to
confirm those because they may be important.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Chair as far as I can read the affidavit

of Mr Agrizzi the only issue that the witness is able to
20

confirm is the issue that the Chair has dealt with that the
staircase and the generator outside and then you touched
on the issue of the garages.

Other than that, the witness

is unable to because – he is unable to confirm because
then Mr Agrizzi go to inside the house and then deal with
the ...[intervenes]
Page 78 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s s o b u t l o o k a t a l A g r i z z i ’ s e v i d e n c e

because he might have dealt with some features in a
different affidavit.

He submitted two or three affidavits.

Yo u d o n ’ t h a v e t o i t n o w b u t y o u c a n d o i t l a t e r t o i d e n t i f y
those so that ...[intervenes]
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Chair in order to save our time I am

almost done with the witness.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

ADV NOTSHE SC:
10

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV NOTSHE

Can I ask for a short adjournment?
Ja.

SC:

A short

adjournment

just

to

run

through, I am also thinking of looking also to Mr Richard Le
Roux’s statement to see what the witness can confirm from
Mr Richard Le Roux in terms of the features.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well when I adjourn, I want to adjourn

f o r t h e d a y.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

For the day?
Because we don’t have another witness.

Well your junior might have taken note of what has been
20

confirmed by the witness and what has not been confirmed
but he has confirmed what is in the agreement, he has
confirmed I think everything that is in his affidavit.

Yo u r

affidavit Mr Le Roux, you have looked at it again maybe
y e s t e r d a y, r e c e n t l y, y o u r a f f i d a v i t t h a t y o u s i g n e d i n M a r c h ,
did you look at it yesterday again to refresh your memory?
Page 79 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , d o y o u c o n f i r m t h a t w h a t y o u s a i d

there is correct?
MR LE ROUX:

Ye s i t i s .

CHAIRPERSON:

J a , w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e c o l o u r o f t h e c a r,

do you want to stick to the colour that you wrote as black
or dark blue or are you saying no you think it was white or
are you saying you are not sure what colour it was, you
thought it was black or blue but you have seen a white
10

one, you are not sure but what you are sure about is that it
an Austin Martin.
MR LE ROUX:

An Austin Martin yes.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y a l r i g h t .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Chair before we leave the witness with

your leave can I refer the Chair to you will see on page 13,
13 point – T13, 13 page CR07 and there are two premises
referred to there, paragraph E and ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Sorry what page?

ADV NOTSHE SC:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

P a g e 7 , T 1 3 7 C h a i r.
Seven?

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Zero 07, CR07, I hope the President

doesn’t take offence of these num berings with CR.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV NOTSHE SC:

(laughing) yes?
Chair those residences work was done

there but our investigations is we find it is not relevant to
Page 80 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
y o u r e n q u i r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

So I will not lead evidence on those

residences.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, no that’s fine.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Chair I have conferred with my junior

we couldn’t find anything as from Agrizzi’s evidence that
can be confirmed by this witness.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Neither also I have got Le Roux,

Richard Le Roux, does not refer to features that can be
confirmed by this, the only thing that Richard Le Roux is to
confirm the house but not features.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, ja.

Well the stairs inside the house

is one of the things that Mr Agrizzi talks about in his
affidavit.

He says there I thought he said they lead up to

Ms Mokonyane’s study upstairs but I see in this affidavit he
talks about the study being on the right hand side as you
enter if I am not mistaken.
20

ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
So

the

agreement

that

was

signed

between yourselves and Ms Mokonyane’s affidavit does it
deal with those or does it not?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

No Judge it does not, it doesn’t but

Chair ...[intervenes]
Page 81 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
CHAIRPERSON:
pursued

with

So that is one of the things that must be

regard

to

Mr Agrizzi

and

also

to

check

whether there can be agreement from Ms Mokonyane’s
lawyers that there are such stairs inside the house.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s , w i t h t h e – I h a v e b e e n g e t t i n g

cooperation from Ms Mokonyane’s lawyers, I am sure there
will be some discussion about that and then we will see
what

cooperation

we

get

and

then

we

will

see

what

agreement can be reached.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o w y o u k n o w w e – M r L e R o u x

here in his affidavit said the Austin Martin was dark blue or
black but he has said that the one that he saw yesterday in
the house is white.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
There ...[intervenes]

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Chair on that we will – I have got

information as I was on my feet but I want to present it to
y o u i n a p r e s e n t a b l e w a y.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s , y e s , t h e r e i s – I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r

you have got here the – I don’t know whether it is attached
to

Mr

Groenewald’s

affidavit

but

there

is

a

–

the

i n v e s t i g a t o r s d i d a p p r o a c h t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t
and they obtained the registration there and I think there
was a colour given.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s .
Page 82 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, so I thought that might resolve the

issue.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
Is that what you are talking about?

ADV NOTSHE SC:

That is what I am talking about and

C h a i r w i t h y o u r l e a v e c a n I d e a l w i t h t h a t i s s u e l a t e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a o k a y.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

It will then, it might explain the

situation we have.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:

The only reason I don’t want to place

it before you, I just want to place it in a presentable
m a n n e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

And a complete picture regarding that.
Ye s , t h e n w e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s ]

ADV NOTSHE SC:

T h e r e i s a N AT I S r e g i s t r a t i o n w h i c h

will give us the colour and other issues about it.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s , o k a y.

We will have to deal with

that as soon as possible.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

No we will.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y, a l r i g h t .

Thank you Mr Le

Roux for coming to give evidence, we appreciate that these
are matters that happened many years ago but we are
grateful that you came to us as the Commission.
Page 83 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
MR LE ROUX: No problem.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s ,

if

the

need

arises

for

the

Commission to ask you to come back we will ask you to
come back and the we will take it from there.

But then for

the day we are going to adjourn or do you still have
something?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s , I h a v e j u s t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON:

Are we going to sit tomorrow and on

Wednesday isn’t it?
10

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

On Bosasa matters, are we still with

that?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

What we – before we even go there

C h a i r, I w a n t e d t o d e a l w i t h n o w – c a n h e b e e x c u s e d ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s y o u a r e e x c u s e d M r L e R o u x , y o u

may go.
MR LE ROUX:

O k a y, t h a n k y o u .

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV NOTSHE SC:
20

Thank you.
Chair I have in the bundle an affidavit

of Mr Lionel Groenewald, he is part of the investigation
team.

The affidavit it deals with the investigation he has

done, the – he also deals with the evidence of the witness
j u s t a b o u t t h e p i c t u r e t h a t h e s a w.
CHAIRPERSON:

Can I just say the investigators of the

Commission relating to Bosasa if one of them is here they
Page 84 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
should not leave because after this I would like to see the
legal team plus the investigators.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s w e h a d p l a n n e d a m e e t i n g w i t h

them.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , o k a y, a f t e r – w h e n w e a d j o u r n , I

would like to see the legal team and the investigator or
investigators

that

deal

with

Bosasa

shortly

in

these

chambers here. Okay yes?
ADV NOTSHE SC:
10

So Chair we are in your hands, insofar

as the affidavit of Mr Groenewald.

It is merely to confirm

the evidence with this witness that he showed him the
pictures that we took you through of outside the house and
the guardhouse and he also deals with his research at
D e e d s R e g i s t r y, t h e r e g i s t r a t i o n o f t h e h o u s e a n d I a m n o t
certain whether the Chair would want him to give viva voice
evidence or whether his affidavit can be read into the
record.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well,

one,

it

depends

if

there

is

something, if depends if there is something, does it deal
20

w i t h t h e N AT I S i n f o r m a t i o n ?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

I t d o e s n o t d e a l w i t h t h e N AT I S

i n f o r m a t i o n , b u t t h e N AT I S i n f o r m a t i o n i s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

Well his affidavit can be -

I think I do

remember; I think it will be better that he should come but I
think you said he is not well or something?
Page 85 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
ADV

NOTSHE

SC:

He

is

not

–

he

is

physically

indisposed.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, once he is well let’s call him it won’t

take long.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

His evidence won’t take long.
J a , j a , o k a y.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And also, it will also not really help but

it will demonstrate also the confusion that was nearly
caused by the photograph, because in his photograph he
10

took it at the right angle.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , o k a y.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

And then it will show what we saw

yesterday and what the evidence of the witness but it will
also bring the photograph.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Chair for now that is all, and then

tomorrow we had planned the evidence of one witness,
there were two witnesses, first let me go back, initially the
hearing was planned for three days but we felt that the
20

witnesses were going to be short and we will put them
t o g e t h e r.

So today we had planned Mr Frolick and this

witness, tomorrow we had planned another witness and Mr
Brian Blake for the travel agents. It seems as if we are left
with one ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I t h i n k t h e o t h e r w i t n e s s y o u c a n
Page 86 of 90

06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
mention, was Mr Gingnana wasn’t it?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Ye s M r G i n g n a n a a n d w e a r e u n a b l e t o

proceed with him, we have arranged with him that he will
get a fresh notice of the next hearing.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
Ye s .
Ye s , s o w e a r e l e f t w i t h M r B l a k e a n d

insofar as Mr Blake is concerned, I again spoke to the
legal representatives of Ms Mokonyane about the reference
10

then they are not, they agree that his evidence can be led
despite the references.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t o t h e r p e o p l e w h o

may be

implicated in Mr Blake’s affidavit or evidence have they
been given 33 Notices?
ADV NOTSHE SC:

As far as I know they have been given

but when we meet you now in chambers I will confirm that
because what I did even on Friday I said we should go
through all those invoices and make sure, and also the
statement, and make sure that everyone mentioned there
20

h a s g o t a 3 3 s o t h a t t o d a y, t o m o r r o w w h e n M r B l a k e i s
testifying people are not taken by surprise to hear their
names mentioned when they have – but we will confirm
with you in chambers.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t y o u s e e i f n o t i c e s h a v e n ’ t b e e n

given then I don’t want to come here only to adjourn
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06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
p r o c e e d i n g s t o m o r r o w.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Chairperson now we are going to leave

here that is your chambers and we will be certain whether
they will be coming or ...
CHAIRPERSON:

But I want to adjourn even tomorrow’s

proceedings

if

now

you

don’t

–

if

you

are

not

ready

b e c a u s e n o t i c e s h a v e n o t b e e n g i v e n a n d W e d n e s d a y.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
hearings.
10

Well Wednesday Chair there are no

Can Chair just bear with me for one second.

CHAIRPERSON:

J a , o k a y.

ADV NOTSHE SC:

Chair I am advised by my junior that

all notices, 3.3 Notices have gone out insofar as Mr Brian
Blake.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t g o i n g o u t i s n o t e n o u g h , h a s 1 4

days lapsed?
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

No it has not lapsed.
Ja, then ...[intervenes]
It was a short notice.
Then if – I mean if you are going to call

a witness without giving the implicated parties 14 days
notice there has got to be sound good reasons and I don’t
think that there would be any good reasons with regard to
Mr Blake.
ADV NOTSHE SC:

Chair I can confirm we have not even

– unlike the issue of Ms Mokonyane, the witness, where we
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06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
obtained consent of the other side, with Mr Blake’s one we
have not obtained consent and we are unable to so ...
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y s o w h a t y o u n e e d t o d o f o r a l l

the witnesses who will be coming check that notices have
been issued on time, check that by the time the witness
comes a period of 14 days will have lapsed and if you seek
to lead the witness even though the 14 days has not lapsed
you would need to apply for condonation, obviously there
must be good cause.
10

The application for condonation I

think I have said that in certain circumstances it doesn’t
have to be substantive, so – but I need to be told what the
reasons are, but as far as possible the idea should be to
make sure that we – the Com mission office has the 14 days
period.
ADV NOTSHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

I understand.
And when there are good reasons that’s

different to lead the witness before the expiry of 14 days
then I will listen to what the reasons are and then take it
from there, so it is important and don’t rely completely on
20

the Secretariat about the sending of notice so let them
satisfy you that it has been done, you specify if it hasn’t
been done, it must be done by a certain date and just
check with them because otherwise you might think that
well I asked them to send it out by a certain date, I am
sure they will, but you discover one day before the hearing
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06 JULY 2020 – DAY 230
of that witness that actually it wasn’t sent out on time.
O k a y, a l r i g h t , s o w e w i l l n o t s i t t o m o r r o w, w e w i l l
not sit on Wednesday for the purposes of the m edia and
the public, I can announce that we will sit on Thursday and
I w i l l h e a r t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r M a x a t u g a o n T h u r s d a y.
We adjourn.
REGISTRAR: All rise.
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S T O 9 J U LY 2 0 2 0

10

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