C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

05 SEPTEMB ER 2019

D AY 1 5 7

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
PROCEEDINGS ON 5 SEPTEMBER 2019
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : G o o d m o r n in g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ar e w e r e a d y ?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : W e i n d e e d a r e r e a d y C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

C h a ir t h is m o r n i n g w e a r e g o i n g to

p r e s e n t t h e e v i d e n c e o f M s K r iv a n i P il la y. S h e w a s p a r t o f th e A C B C 8
a l l 3 .3 N o ti c e s w e r e s e n t i n t e r m s o f h e r s t a te m e n t t o Mr H l a u d i
10

M o ts o e n e n g a n d Mr J i mi M a t t h e w s .

M r J i mi M a t th e w s h a s r e s p o n d e d

h o w e v e r it is in C C 2 5 h is r e s p o n s e t o M s K r iv a n i P i ll a y a n d t h a t w e w i ll
p u t it t o h e r a t t h e e n d o f h e r e v id e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: May the witness please be sworn in
CHAIRPERSON:

No thank you.

P l e a s e a d m i n is t e r t h e o a th o r

a ffir m a t i o n ?
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : K r i v a n i Pi ll a y.
REGISTRAR:
20

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c ti o n i n t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

a ffir m a t i o n ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : N o .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u s o le m n ly a ffi r m t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e y o u w i ll g i v e

s h a l l b e th e tr u th ; t h e w h o l e t r u t h a n d n o t h in g b u t t h e tr u th , i f s o p le a s e
r a i s e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, I tr u ly a ffi r m ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I tr u l y a ff ir m .

Page 2 of 230

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

M s Kr iv a n i y o u h a v e s u b m i t te d t w o

s t a te m e n ts t o t h e c o m m is s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M s P il la y.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : M s P i ll a y s o r r y. W e h a v e b e c o m e v e r y
a c q u a in t e d – a p o l o g i e s . A p o l o g ie s Ms P i ll a y.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : N o p r o b l e m a t a l l.
ADV MPHO RASIVH ETSHELE:

M s P il l a y y o u h a v e s u b m i t t e d t w o

s t a te m e n ts to th e c o m m is s i o n t h e fir s t s ta t e m e n t b e i n g y o u r m a i n
s t a te m e n t
10

s t a te m e n t .

and

the

second

statement

being

your

supplementary

T h e p u r p o s e o f y o u r s e c o n d s t a te m e n t w a s t o c o r r e c t

m is t a k e s fr o m y o u r fir s t s t a t e m e n t .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th a t i s c o r r e c t.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

A n d a ls o j u s t to p u t f o r th a d d i ti o n a l

in f o r m a ti o n t h a t w a s n o t c o n t a i n e d i n y o u r s e c o n d s ta t e m e n t – in y o u r
fir s t s ta t e m e n t.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th a t i s c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M s P il la y is y o u r fir s t n a m e s p e l t w i t h a n I a f te r R ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r w i th a n E – a n I ?
20

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I t i s a n I – K r iv a n i .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

I think that the people who prepare these

bundles you have to check. Remember was it yesterday – not yesterday
t h e d a y b e f o r e y e s t e r d a y th a t i n s t e a d o f w r it i n g M z w a m a d o d a i n r e g a r d
t o M r M x a k w e t h e y h a d w r i t t e n s o m e t h i n g e ls e w h ic h I d id r e a d o u t j u s t
s o m e t h i n g e l s e a n d I s e e h e r e w i t h M s P il l a y i n t h e s t a t e m e n t it is

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
w r i t t e n c o r r e c t ly b u t o n t h e d i v i d e r i t is K r e – t h e y m u s t j u s t ta k e t h e
tr o u b le t o m a k e s u r e p e o p le ’s n a m e s a r e w r i tt e n c o r r e c t ly, t h e ir
s u r n a m e s a r e w r i tt e n c o r r e c tl y. I t is n o t d i ffi c u l t .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s C h a ir. W e w i ll r e l a y t h a t m e s s a g e
C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y a lr ig h t .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A p o l o g ie s f o r t h a t.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: Ms Krivani.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m a y p r o c e e d .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

M s K r i v a n i t h e f ir s t

p a g e o f t h e d o c u m e n t in fr o n t o f y o u c a n y o u id e n ti fy t h a t d o c u m e n t ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

Th is is t h e s t a te m e n t t h a t I p r o v i d e d t o t h e

c o m m i s s io n .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Yo u r m a i n s t a te m e n t ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : M y m a in s t a t e m e n t .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: And if you turn on page 8 of that same
document.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s .
20

A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Is th a t y o u r s i g n a tu r e ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th a t i s c o r r e c t.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A n d w h e n d i d y o u s i g n t h i s s ta t e m e n t?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : O n t h e 1 3 t h A u g u s t.
ADV

MPHO

RASIVHETSHELE:

And

if

we

go

supplementary statement that would be on page 23.

Page 4 of 230

to

your

second

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : . Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVH ETSHELE:

A n d w e t u r n o v e r to p a g e 2 4 is t h a t

y o u r s ig n a t u r e o n t h a t s t a te m e n t ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th a t i s c o r r e c t?
ADV

MPHO

RASIVHETSH ELE:

And

can

you

ju s t

i d e n ti fy

the

c o r r e c t io n s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y w h a t p a g e i s t h e s u p p l e m e n ta r y ?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : It is o n p a g e 2 3 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: 20?
10

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: 23, 23
C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 3 . W e ll I h a v e j u s t s e e n w h a t t h e y w r o t e i n r e g a r d
t o M r M x a k w e w h ic h I t a l k e d a b o u t . T h e y w r o t e M z w a m a d o d i n s te a d o f
M z w a m a d o d a s o – o k a y, y e s .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : M s P i ll a y.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : H m .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSH ELE:

C a n y o u j u s t id e n ti fy t h e c o r r e c t i o n s

t h a t y o u w a n t e d to a m e n d o n y o u r m a i n s ta t e m e n t ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : M y – t h e c o r r e c t i o n w a s t h e c h r o n o l o g ic a l o r d e r
ju s t t o g e t th e d a te o f t h e ti m e o f e v e n ts w h ic h w a s p a r a g r a p h s 1 0 a n d
20

11 i n my o r i g i n a l s t a t e m e n t a n d i n m y s u p p l e m e n ta r y I a d d e d t h e l e t t e r
t h a t my c o l l e a g u e s B u s is i w e N t u li a n d J a c q u e s S t e e n k a m p h a d s e n t to
M r M o ts o e n e n g a n d th e n e w s e x e c u ti v e s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHEL E: And other than that though – other than
t h o s e c o r r e c t io n s a n d a d d i ti o n s a r e y o u s a ti s f i e d w i t h b o t h y o u r m a in
and supplementary statement?

Page 5 of 230

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s o h s o r r y o n e m o r e t h in g is i n p a r a g r a p h 2 0
o f my m a i n s t a te m e n t I m e n ti o n e d t h a t I r e c e iv e d a n e m a il s a y i n g t h a t
t h e r e w o u l d n o a n a ly s is o f Pr e s i d e n t Z u m a ’s S t a t e o f t h e N a ti o n
A d d r e s s t h e c o r r e c t i o n it w a s n o t a n e m a il it w a s a v e r b a l in s tr u c ti o n .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u M s P ill a y.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th a n k y o u .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : M s P i l la y c a n y o u p l e a s e t e l l u s w h e r e
y o u a r e c u r r e n tly e m p lo y e d ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :
10

I a m c u r r e n t ly e m p lo y e d a t t h e S A B C i n m y

c u r r e n t ti tl e o f E x e c u tiv e P r o d u c e r o f S A F M C u r r e n t A ff a ir s . I w a s
r e c e n t ly s e c o n d e d f o r t h e d u r a ti o n o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 8 t o J u n e 2 0 1 9 a s
H e a d o f E le c ti o n s f o r S A B C N e w s c o o r d i n a t i n g e l e c t io n c o n t e n t f o r
r a d i o , te le v i s i o n a n d d i g i t a l .

I a m n o w b a c k t o m y o r i g i n a l t it l e o f

E x e c u t iv e Pr o d u c e r o f S A F M C u r r e n t A ff a ir s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

A n d c a n y o u ju s t g i v e u s j u s t a s h o r t

b a c k g r o u n d o f h o w l o n g y o u h a v e b e e n w i t h t h e S A B C a n d ju s t a s h o r t
career background?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

I h a v e b e e n a jo u r n a li s t fo r a l m o s t n i n e t e e n

y e a r s o f w h ic h s ix t e e n h a s b e e n w i th b r o k e n s e r v ic e a t th e S A B C .
20

I

s t a r t e d o ff a s a n i n t e r n w h il e s t u d y i n g a t R h o d e s U n iv e r s it y a t t h e
S A B C n e w s r o o m in D u r b a n a n d s u b s e q u e n tly o n c e I g o t m y u n d e r g r a d ,
m y B a c h e l o r o f J o u r n a l is m f r o m R h o d e s I w o r k e d a t th e u n iv e r s i ty a
li t tl e b it a n d th e n I w e n t o n t o j o i n t h e n e w s r o o m a s a fi e l d r e p o r t e r a n d
a s a c u r r e n t a ffa ir s a n c h o r.

I worked my way up through the ranks

p a r t ic u l a r ly in r a d io a n d th e n w a s h e a d h u n t e d t o jo i n S A F M C u r r e n t

Page 6 of 230

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
A ff a ir s i n 2 0 0 6 – 2 0 0 7 w h e r e I s t a y e d a n d w o r k e d m y w a y u p t o s e n i o r
a n c h o r, s e n i o r p r o d u c e r. I t h e n to o k a b r e a k fr o m t h e S A B C a n d I w e n t
to the EWN newsroom and ENCA newsroom where I worked as both an
a n c h o r a n d th e n a s s i g n m e n ts a n d e d i to r f o r E N C A .
S A B C i n t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t I c u r r e n t ly h o l d .

C a m e b a c k to

M y q u a li fi c a t io n s I

m a tr ic u l a te d a t D u r b a n G ir l s S e c o n d a r y S c h o o l. I th e n h a v e a B a c h e l o r
o f J o u r n a li s m f r o m R h o d e s a s w e l l a s a M a s t e r s . I h a v e a d i p l o m a o f
E u r o p e a n J o u r n a l is m fr o m th e [i n d is t in c t ] S c h o o l o f U tr e c h t in t h e
Netherlands.
10

I h a v e a d i p lo m a in A d v a n c e d B r o a d c a s ti n g fr o m t h e

T h o m s o n Fo u n d a ti o n a n d C a r d i ff U n iv e r s i ty.

I have a diploma in

E s s e n t ia ls i n Br o a d c a s t M a n a g e m e n t fr o m t h e S a u l P l a a i tj ie In s ti t u t e i n
R h o d e s U n iv e r s i ty a n d I h a v e a d i p l o m a i n M e d ia E x e c u t iv e Tr a i n i n g
P r o g r a m w i th B l o o m b e r g a n d t h e G o r d o n I n s ti t u te o f B u s i n e s s S c ie n c e
w i t h t h e U n iv e r s it y o f P r e t o r i a .
ADV MPHO RASIVH ETSHELE:

Th a n k y o u M s P i l la y.

M s P i l la y i n

p a r a g r a p h 3 o f y o u r m a i n s t a te m e n t t h a t w i ll b e o n p a g e 1 th e
in v e s t i g a t o r s o f t h e c o m m i s s io n a p p r o a c h e d y o u , c a n y o u ju s t id e n ti fy
the purpose of this approach?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :
20

W e l l it w a s to fi n d o u t a b o u t t h e s o c a ll e d

e d i to r i a l in t e r f e r e n c e a t th e S A B C a n d t o g e t – t o s h a r e t h e e v i d e n c e
a n d o u r e x p e r i e n c e s o f w h a t w e w e n t t h r o u g h i n th e Wa t e r s h e d t i m e o f
2 0 1 6 f o r a b o u t a p e r i o d o f a b o u t e i g h t e e n m o n th s a s t h e s o c a ll e d
SABC8.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u . M s P il la y f r o m p a r a g r a p h 6
t h a t w o u l d b e o n p a g e 2 o f y o u r m a i n s t a t e m e n t w h e r e y o u h i g h li g h t th e

Page 7 of 230

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
e d i to r i a l a n d p o l it ic a l in t e r f e r e n c e . T h e r e w a s a m e d ia s t a t e m e n t t h a t
w a s is s u e d a c c o r d i n g t o b a n p r o t e s t p o l ic y.

C a n y o u ju s t to u c h b a s e

a n d ta lk t o t h a t?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

O k a y s o o n th e 2 6 t h M a y 2 0 1 6 C h a ir w e h a d

h e a r d th r o u g h a m e d ia s t a t e m e n t t h a t H l a u d i M o ts o e n e n g h a d d e c i d e d
t o i m p l e m e n t – i t w a s n o t – w e c a ll e d i t t h e p r o te s t p o l ic y b u t t h e r e w a s
n o t a f o r m a l p o l ic y w h e r e y o u w o u l d b a n v is u a ls o f p r o t e s t a c t io n a n d
w e w e r e n o t t o l d a s a n e w s d iv i s i o n o ff i c ia ll y w e a ll h a d t o fi n d o u t
t h r o u g h a m e d i a s t a t e m e n t . A n d a s t h e e x e c u tiv e p r o d u c e r o f t h e s h o w
10

o f S A F M C u r r e n t A ff a ir s I to g e th e r w i t h m y c o l l e a g u e A u b r e y [i n d is t in c t ]
w e c o - m a n a g e a t e a m . A t t h e ti m e t h e s h o w s w e r e c a l le d A M L i v e M i d D a y L i v e a n d P M L iv e a n d o u t te a m o f s e n i o r p r o d u c e r s d e c id e d t o
t a c k le t h is is s u e o n t h e S u n d a y m o r n in g e d i ti o n o f t h e p r o g r a m c a ll e d
The Editors.

T h e E d i t o r s is a p r o g r a m t h a t r e a l ly lo o k s a t t h e m e d i a

in d u s tr y a s a w h o l e .
e d i to r i a l s ta ff .

W e r e f le c t o n th e d e c is i o n s w e h a v e m a d e a s

W e l o o k a t h o w o u r c o l le a g u e s o v e r th e d i ff e r e n t

p l a t fo r m s h a v e c o v e r e d n e w s a n d i t i s i n t e r e s ti n g t o g iv e t h is k i n d o f
in f o r m a ti o n

to

the

c i tiz e n r y

because

the

angles

that

c e r t a in

b r o a d c a s t e r s , c e r ta i n n e w s p a p e r s m a y t a k e c o u l d h a v e t o d o w it h w h o
20

owns them.

Yo u k n o w s o m e p e o p l e ta k e o n e a n g le o f c o v e r i n g t h e

s t o r y o th e r s t a k e a d i ff e r e n t v ie w a n d i t i s – a n d it is p a r t o f o u r
a p p r o a c h i n t h e e d it o r s t o g iv e o u r li s t e n e r s a ll ty p e s a n d i t w a s a v e r y
popular programme.

A n d o n t h e S u n d a y t h e f ir s t S u n d a y a ft e r t h i s

m e d i a s ta t e m e n t w a s is s u e d t h e e d it o r s t o o k t o a n a ly s e th is – th is
s t a te m e n t . A n d w h e n w e d id s o w e h a v e e d i to r s c o m in g i n . W e h a v e

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
lis t e n e r s c a ll in g i n a n d w e h a v e a n a n c h o r w h o m a n a g e s t h e p r o g r a m .
U n f o r t u n a t e ly t h a t d i d n o t g o d o w n w e l l w i th M o t s o e n e n g – M r
M o ts o e n e n g a n d w e w e r e s u b s e q u e n tl y c a l le d in t o d is c u s s w h y w e h a d
taken that stance. I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y t h a t – th a t p r o g r a m w h e r e t h e e d i t o r s h a v e
t h is e n g a g e m e n t w o u ld it b e o n S A F M ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s i t w a s o n S A F M o n a S u n d a y m o r n in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : F r o m a c e r t a i n ti m e t o a c e r t a i n ti m e ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th e e d i to r s w o u l d i t b e e d i to r s w i t h i n S A B C o r

y o u w o u l d i n v i te e d i to r s fr o m o u ts i d e a s w e l l o r h o w w a s i t c o m p o s e d ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : B e c a u s e t h e p r o g r a m w a s a S A B C n e w s p r o g r a m
w e w o u l d tr y o u r a b s o l u t e b e s t t h e s e n io r p r o d u c e r s a n d t h e p r o d u c e r s
w o u ld tr y th e ir b e s t t o e n s u r e t h a t o n e S A B C e d i t o r w o u l d b e o n t h e
p r o g r a m a n d t h e n t h e o t h e r s u p p o r t i n g e d i t o r s w o u ld b e fr o m o t h e r
C H A I R P E R S O N : M e d ia h o u s e s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : M e d ia h o u s e s t h a t i s c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t – b u t t h e f o c u s w o u ld n o t j u s t b e S A B C n e w s it
w o u ld in c l u d e o th e r m e d i a h o u s e s t h e ir p u b l ic a t i o n s .
20

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th a t i s c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e i r b r o a d c a s ts .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : C h a ir s o s o m e ti m e s s o m e n e w s p a p e r s w il l h a v e
a n e x c l u s iv e . T h e y w o u l d b r e a k a s t o r y.

Page 9 of 230

F o r e x a m p l e th e R a p p o r t o r

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
t h e S t a r w e w o u l d i n v i t e th a t e d it o r t o c o m e t h a t w e e k e n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

To g i v e u s t h e b a c k g r o u n d to t h a t e x c l u s iv e

b r e a k i n g s t o r y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : H o w d i d t h e y g e t t h e in f o r m a t io n ? H o w l o n g d i d
t h e s t o r y t a k e y o u k n o w fr o m t h e t i m e t h e y g o t i t to t h e t i m e t h a t t h e y
b r o a d c a s t i t . B e c a u s e w h a t h a p p e n s g e n e r a l ly i n th e m e d ia i n d u s t r y is
o n e p u b l ic a t i o n o r b r o a d c a s t e r c a n b r e a k a s t o r y b u t o n c e i t is o u t
10

t h e r e i t i s f a ir p la y f o r e v e r y b o d y e ls e t o t h e n s ta r t t a c k l in g t h e s t o r y i n
t h e ir n e w s d i a r y. S o t h i s is o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s w e d o t h a t . W e f in d th e
fir s t p e o p le t o h a v e – y o u k n o w h a v e t h a t e x c lu s i v i ty a n d w e in v i t e t h e m
o n t h e s h o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u ld – w o u ld p a r t o f w h a t y o u w o u ld b e l o o k i n g a t i n
t h a t p r o g r a m b e t o w h a t e x t e n t th e r e h a d b e e n f a ir n e s s t o a ff e c t e d
p a r t i e s i n r e g a r d to e a c h s to r y a n d s o o n a ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : W e c o u ld …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d th a t b e p a r t o f w h a t y o u lo o k a t to e n a b le t h e
c i tiz e n r y t o a p p r e c ia t e w h a t tr o u b le e d i t o r s t a k e i n o r d e r – b e fo r e a

20

s t o r y is i s s u e d .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r n o t r e a lly ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY: N o , n o y o u a r e a b s o l u te ly r ig h t C h a ir. W e w o u ld
d is c u s s t h a t .

F o r e x a m p le I r e m e m b e r w h e n I w a s s it t in g in a s a n

a n c h o r fo r t h a t s h o w.

W e d i d a p r o g r a m w h e r e t h e r e w a s a b lo o d i e d

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
p ic t u r e o n t h e fr o n t p a g e o f t h e n e w s p a p e r a n d w e d is c u s s e d t h e m e r it s
o f p u b lis h in g s u c h a p ic t u r e b e c a u s e y o u k n o w i t is f r e e f o r a ll a n d
children

are

a c t u a lly

also

having

a look at that.

Because in

b r o a d c a s t in g y o u h a v e W a t e r s h e d ti m e s a n d y o u c a n p r o t e c t c h il d r e n
fr o m s o m e c o n t e n t . B u t f o r e x a m p l e – s o w e – s o I r e m e m b e r o n th a t
p a r t ic u l a r d a y – s o t h a t w o u ld b e s o m e o f t h e – th e d is c u s s i o n s w e
h a v e . D id t h a t p a r t ic u l a r n e w s p a p e r m a k e t h e r i g h t d e c is i o n i n p u t t in g
s u c h a b l o o d i e d p i c tu r e i n – o n t h e ir f r o n t p a g e ? Th o s e a r e t h e k i n d o f
e d i to r i a l d i s c u s s io n s t h a t t a k e s p l a c e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o th e n w i th in t h e c o n te x t o f t h e p o li c y th a t h a d ju s t
b e e n is s u e d th e m e d i a s t a te m e n t i n r e la t i o n to th e p o l ic y a b o u t p r o t e s t
p ic t u r e s t h a t c a m e in i n r e g a r d t o a s k in g t h e q u e s ti o n i s i t a p p r o p r ia t e ?
Is i t r ig h t f o r t h e m e d i a n o t to s h o w p r o te s t a c ti o n ? T h a t w o u ld b e t h e
a n g le .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th a t w a s p r e c is e l y t h e a n g l e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u Ms Kr iv a n i . M s K r i v a n i – M s
P il l a y.

20

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Yo u c a n c a ll m e M s K r iv a n i .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o p l e a s e s t ic k t o M s P il l a y.

T h e n d u r i n g t h e te a

b r e a k y o u c a n – y o u c a n r e v e r t to K r i v a n i.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSH ELE:

Ye s .

m e e ti n g w h e r e y o u w e r e s u m m o n e d .

M s P ill a y y o u t a lk a b o u t a
Yo u w e r e s u m m o n e d w i t h M r

K r i g e , is th a t c o r r e c t ?

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th a t i s c o r r e c t.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

What was the purpose for being

s u m m o n e d t o M r M o ts o e n e n g ’s o ffic e ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : T h e p u r p o s e o f t h a t w a s – i t w a s a b o u t 4 8 h o u r s
a ft e r t h e S u n d a y p r o g r a m . S o M r M o t s o e n e n g w a s a g g r ie v e d t h a t t h e
p r o g r a m c r i ti c is e d h i s d e c i s i o n b e c a u s e c a ll e r s t h a t h a d c o m e i n o n t h e
p r o g r a m w a n t e d th e m e r it s o f s u c h a d e c i s io n . A t t h e S A B C a n d f o r a
p u b lic b r o a d c a s te r i t i s r a th e r b i z a r r e w h e n y o u a r e s u p p o s e d t o b e
g iv i n g a p l u r a li t y o f v ie w s a n d d i ff e r e n t p e r s p e c t iv e s o n a s to r y fo r
10

s o m e o n e t o is s u e a d ir e c ti v e t o s a y w e a r e n o w b a n n in g th e s e p ic t u r e s .
W e a r e s u p p o s e d t o g i v e a n d w e a r e d u ty b o u n d t o g iv e t h e S o u t h
A fr ic a n p u b l ic a l l a c c e s s t o t h e S o u t h A f r i c a n n e w s a n d y o u k n o w i n a l l
it s m a n n e r a n d fo r m s o t h a t th e y c a n s h a p e t h e ir o w n o p i n i o n s o f t h e
in f o r m a ti o n w e a r e d i s s e m in a ti n g .

B y e ff e c t iv e l y m a k i n g s u c h a

d ir e c t iv e y o u a r e c h o o s i n g t h e n t o d e c i d e , to e d i t w h a t t h e a u d i e n c e ,
w h a t y o u r v i e w e r, w h a t y o u r l is te n e r, w h a t y o u r r e a d e r is t h e n g o in g t o
v ie w. Yo u a r e m a k i n g t h a t d e c is io n . S o t h is i s th e k i n d o f c r i ti c is m t h a t
w e n t o n o n t h a t s h o w o n S u n d a y. A n d w e t h e n c a ll e d t o h is o ff ic e o n
t h e Tu e s d a y t o d is c u s s S u n d a y ’s p r o g r a m .
20

A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A n d w h o e ls e w a s i n a t t e n d a n c e a t th is
m e e ti n g ? Yo u h a v e h i g h l ig h t e d th a t o n p a r a g r a p h 9 o n p a g e 3 o f y o u r
m a in s t a t e m e n t .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I t w a s M r M o t s o e n e n g , i t w a s J i m i M a t t h e w s , t h e
a c ti n g a t t h e ti m e h e w a s t h e a c t in g G r o u p C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e O ff ic e r, i t
w a s t h e a c t i n g G E o f N e w s M r S i m o n T h e b e le , i t w a s A n t o n H e u n is ,

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
A n t o n H e u n is w a s i n tr o d u c e d to u s a s M r M o ts o e n e n g ’s a d v is o r, i t w a s
t h e G M o f R a d i o N e w s M s S e b o l e lo D i t lh a k a y a n e , S A B C s p o k e s p e r s o n
M r K e iz e r K g a n y a g o a n d th e n Mr K r i g e F o e t a a n d m y s e lf .
ADV MPHO RASIVH ETSHELE:

A n d in t h is m e e ti n g y o u s t a t e t h a t t h e

m e e ti n g s w e r e r e c o r d e d a n d e v e r y b o d y w a s a w a r e t h a t t h is m e e t i n g
was recorded.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

T h is is a c tu a lly th e a m e n d m e n t t h a t I m a d e t o

m y s u p p le m e n t a r y. S o t h i s – t h e p o in t 11 C h a ir p o in t 1 0 a n d 11 o f th is
w a s a c t u a l ly th e r e c o r d i n g o f a n e w s w o r k s h o p .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : N o t t h e r e c o r d i n g o f th is m e e ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th a t w a s t h e c o r r e c ti o n t h a t I m a d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I n m y s u p p l e m e n ta r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u M s P il la y. I n p a r a g r a p h 1 2
o f p a g e 3 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t y o u h a v e h i g h l ig h t e d w h a t Mr M o ts o e n e n g
h a d s a i d i n t h a t m e e t in g – p a r ti c u la r m e e ti n g .

20

C o u ld y o u j u s t r e a d i t

out for the record?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :
“ W e a r e c l e a n i n g u p t h e o r g a n is a ti o n p e o p l e a r e
d o i n g t h e ir o w n s t u ff .

T h e r e a r e m a n y jo u r n a li s ts

o u t s i d e t h a t w a n t to w o r k fo r t h e S A B C .
e n v ir o n m e n t o u ts id e is b a d .

Th e

N o p e r s o n w it h in t h e

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
S A B C i s in d e p e n d e n t . Th e S A B C is i n d e p e n d e n t t h is
is th e n e w S A B C .

Yo u m u s t a d a p t o r fi n d a j o b

somewhere else.

Editors’ forum must go.

I ts

a d v e r t is in g fo r r iv a l n e w s p a p e r s . ”
And then he added.
“ I f p e o p le d o n o t a d h e r e g e t r i d o f t h e m w e c a n n o t
h a v e p e o p l e w h o q u e s ti o n m a n a g e m e n t a n d th is is
t h e la s t t i m e w e w i ll h a v e a m e e t i n g o f t h i s k in d . ”
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A n d M s P i ll a y I h a v e n o t e d t h a t th is i s
10

in q u o ta t io n s w a s t h is w o r d fo r w o r d o f w h a t h e h a d s a i d ? D id y o u t a k e
notes of it?

H o w w a s i t – h o w w e r e y o u a b l e t o p u t th is in y o u r

s t a te m e n t b e c a u s e i t is q u o ta t io n m a r k s ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

S o t o b e q u i t e h o n e s t w i t h y o u C h a ir t h is

s t a te m e n t c a u g h t m e o ff m y g u a r d b e c a u s e I w a s j u s t i n s h o c k th a t I
w a s a c t u a l ly li s te n i n g t o t h e s e k i n d s o f s t a te m e n ts . S o t h is p a r t ic u l a r
s t a te m e n t I h a d o n l y i n s h o r t h a n d a n d – b u t Fo e t e Kr i g e h a d m a d e v e r y
d e t a i l e d n o t e s . S o w h e n I – w h e n w e h a d d o n e t h e m e e ti n g F o e t e h a d
t a b le d – I m e a n ty p e d o u t h is n o t e s a n d I c o m p a r e d t o m y n o t e s a n d
t h is w a s v e r b a t i m .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : S o th e r e a r e s o m e p a r t s w h e r e I h a v e a ls o g o t i t
verbatim. Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

T h a n k y o u M s P il l a y. A n d ju s t to j u s t

ju m p t o p a r a g r a p h 1 3 .

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

It continues onto page 4 of your

s t a te m e n t i n te r m s o f w h a t M r K r i g e h a d a s k e d M r M o ts o e n e n g a b o u t
b r o a d c a s t in g v a n d a lis m o f p u b li c p r o p e r ty a n d s o fo r th .

Can you just

t a lk t o t h a t p a r a g r a p h p le a s e ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

S o M r K r ig e tr i e d t o a s k M r M o ts o e n e n g C h a ir

w h a t e m p ir ic a l e v i d e n c e d o y o u h a v e f o r a ll o f t h e s e d e c is i o n s t o b e
m a d e . W e a r e n o t a v e r s e t o c h a n g e . E v e n i n t h e n e w s r o o m c h a n g e is
good.
10

P r o g r a m s n e e d to b e c h a n g e d .

W e n e e d t o k e e p u p w i th t h e

tr e n d s . A s l o n g a s w e f o l lo w a n d a d h e r e t o th e j o u r n a l is t ic p r e s c r i p ts .
I f a p r o g r a m d o e s n o t w o r k i t is n o t p o p u la r e n o u g h w e n e e d t o m a k e
changes?

S o w e a r e n o t a v e r s e to c h a n g e .

But when it comes to

s a y in g t h e e d i t o r s m u s t g o a p o p u l a r p r o g r a m t h a t h a s d e e p e d i to r i a l
v a l u e s a t t a c h e d t o i t . A p r o g r a m t h a t h a s a l o n g h is t o r y. I n fa c t w h e n I
w a s tr y i n g to d o r e s e a r c h o n h o w l o n g th e p r o g r a m w a s it i s – e v e n w a y
b e f o r e 1 9 9 4 t h e e d i t o r s h a s b e e n i n s e s s i o n . S o M r Kr ig e tr ie d to f in d
o u t , w e ll w h a t is t h e t h i n k i n g b e h in d s u c h d e c i s i o n s t h a t t h e e d i to r s
must just go?

A n d Mr M o t s o e n e n g w a s n o t a b l e to g iv e u s a n

e d i to r i a l ly s o u n d r e a s o n . H e w a s n o t a b l e t o r a ti o n a lis e h is r e a s o n i n g .
20

H e b a s ic a l ly j u s t s a id w e m u s t d e fe n d th e o r g a n i s a t io n . N o j o u r n a l is t is
in d e p e n d e n t. T h e C O O h a s f in a l r e s p o n s i b i li ty fo r n e w s . I f p e o p le d o
n o t a d h e r e g e t r i d o f t h e m w e c a n n o t h a v e p e o p l e w h o q u e s ti o n
m a n a g e m e n t . I r e m e m b e r s ti ll h a v i n g m y h a n d u p h e r e fu s e d t o e v e n
t a k e my q u e s ti o n .

H e w a s r e a ll y u p s e t .

According to him we had

b r o u g h t t h e S A B C o r m y p r o g r a m h a d b r o u g h t t h e S A B C i n to d is r e p u t e

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
b e c a u s e w e w e r e d i s c u s s i n g a d e c is io n h e s a n c ti o n e d a n d w e w e r e
d is c u s s in g a d e c is io n h e m a d e . B u t w e h a v e t o b e in tr o s p e c ti v e . W e
h a v e t o b e r e fl e c ti v e a s a n e w s r o o m a n d a s a n o r g a n is a ti o n a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i t w a s a m a t t e r t h a t a ffe c ts th e p u b l ic ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : A b s o l u t e ly. I m e a n w e a r e n o t h e r e f o r o u r o w n
personal welfare.

W e a r e h e r e fo r c o u n t r y d u ty a n d w e a r e h e r e f o r

p u b lic s e r v ic e . A n d h e d id n o t s e e m t o g e t th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e r e fe r e n c e t o e d i t o r s ’ fo r u m w a s a r e f e r e n c e t o
your program?
10

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : M y p r o g r a m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t it w a s c a l l e d ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

And he made – when he said that newspapers

m u s t g o C h a ir h e w a s m a k i n g r e fe r e n c e t o t w o p a r ts o f t h e n e w s p a p e r s .
O n a M o n d a y t o Fr i d a y a p r o g r a m c a l l e d A M L iv e h o s te d b y S a k i n a
K a m w e n d o h a d a n e w s p a p e r s s lo t w h e r e s h e w o u ld r e v ie w t h e
h e a d l in e s

of the newspapers’.

We

w o u ld

not got through the

newspaper…
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : P a g e b y p a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

B u t w e w o u l d lo o k a t t h e g e n e r a l h e a d l in e s o f

t h e d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

A n d t h e n th e e d i t o r s w o u l d a ls o h a v e a f e w

m i n u t e s a b o u t th r e e m i n u te s w h e r e w e l o o k a t th e S u n d a y p a p e r s . A n d
it i s c o m m o n p r a c t ic e . I t is a g e o ld tr a d i ti o n . It is d o n e o n i n t e r n a ti o n a l
b r o a d c a s t e r s a s w e l l . O n e o f th e r e a s o n s w e d o th is i t – a c tu a lly th e r e
is t w o r e a s o n s w e d o th is .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : S o m e n e w s p a p e r s a r e n o t n a ti o n a l t h e y a r e o n ly
a v a i la b le i n c e r ta in p a r t s o f t h e c o u n tr y.

I t i s i m p o r ta n t f o r l is t e n e r s

a n d v i e w e r s t o k n o w w h a t is h a p p e n i n g a r o u n d t h e c o u n tr y. T h a t is
10

n u m b e r 1 . N u m b e r 2 i t is a l s o i m p o r ta n t t o s e e w h a t a n g l e th e S A B C
h a s t a k e n a n d w h a t a n g le Ti m e s L iv e h a s ta k e n .

O r w h a t a n g le th e

S A B C h a s t a k e n a n d w h a t a n g l e th e C i ti z e n h a s t a k e n f o r e x a m p l e . I t
is t o g iv e t h a t k i n d o f v a r y i n g c o v e r a g e p l u r a li ty o f v i e w s a n d
p e r c e p t io n s – p e r s p e c t iv e s t o – I m e a n t h i s r e a ll y is w h a t th e e d i t o r s i s
all about.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I h a p p e n t o k n o w t h a t i n o n e o f t h e T V c h a n n e l s
t h a t s h o w s w h a t is h a p p e n i n g i n E n g la n d t h e y h a v e th o s e d is c u s s i o n s
lik e th a t I th in k p a r t ic u l a r l y I t h in k o n – I t h in k S a t u r d a y e v e n i n g . W e ll I
h a p p e n t o k n o w t h a t i n o n e o f t h e T V c h a n n e ls t h a t s h o w s w h a t is
20

h a p p e n in g i n E n g la n d t h e y h a v e t h o s e d is c u s s io n s l ik e t h a t I t h i n k
p a r t ic u l a r ly I t h in k o n – I th i n k S a tu r d a y e v e n i n g .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th e B B C
C H A I R P E R S O N : E v e n i n g f o r th e S u n d a y o n e s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u k n o w p r e v i e w a n d lo o k a t d i ff e r e n t n e w s p a p e r s

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
a n d I t h in k w i th in t h e c o u n tr y th e r e a r e o t h e r p e o p l e w h o d o th e s a m e .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : J a .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I t i s c o m m o n i n d u s t r y p r a c t ic e j a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t h e d id n o t lik e t h a t e it h e r.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : W e ll I d o n o t t h i n k h e – I d o n o t th i n k h e h a d a n
is s u e w it h th e p r o g r a m a t a l l i ts e l f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I t w a s j u s t b e c a u s e th is S u n d a y c a ta p u l t e d h i m
10

t o t h e to p o f t h e a g e n d a . H is d e c is i o n w a s c r i tic is e d . H is d e c is i o n w a s
t h e n b e i n g d e b a t e d a n d d i s p u t e d o n th e s h o w. A n d t h i s m u s t h a v e g o t
h is a t te n ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t b e c a u s e o f t h a t h e w a s n o w s a y in g t h e p r o g r a m

must go.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th e p r o g r a m m u s t g o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e t h e y a r e – t h a t i s w h a t y o u s a y h e r e . O k a y.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

And the newspapers must go as well.

So the

n e w s p a p e r s o n t h e A M L i v e p o r t io n o f t h e m o r n in g a n d t h e n e w s p a p e r s
o n t h e E d i to r s p r o g r a m .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . O k a y.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

M s P i l l a y y o u h a v e ju s t s t a t e d in

p a r a g r a p h 1 3 w h a t M r M o ts o e n e n g h a d s a i d j u s t i n th e s e c o n d li n e .
“ T h e C O O h a s th e fi n a l r e s p o n s i b i li ty f o r n e w s . ”
Wa s th is t h e f ir s t ti m e t h a t y o u h a v e h e a r d th a t th e C O O h a s t h e f in a l
r e s p o n s i b i li ty f o r n e w s o r w a s t h i s a n o r m ?

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : T h is w a s t h e fir s t t i m e t h a t I h a d h e a r d fr o m h i m
t h a t t h e fi n a l r e s p o n s i b il i ty o f n e w s b e c a u s e I h a d o n ly c o m e b a c k t o
t h e S A B C – s o r r y C h a ir I h a v e s o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m u s t l o o k a t m e m o r e th a n a t h e r.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : S o r r y C h a ir. C h a ir t h is w a s t h e fir s t t i m e t h a t I
h a d h e a r d t h a t b e c a u s e I h a d o n l y j u s t r e c e n tly r e t u r n e d t o th e S A B C .
I t w a s a c o u p l e o f m o n t h s p r i o r t o t h a t.

So when I had heard that I

t h o u g h t m a y b e h e m a d e a m i s t a k e . B u t t h e n J i m i M a t t h e w s w a s s i t t in g
y o u k n o w r i g h t n e x t to h i m a n d h e d i d n o t c o r r e c t h i m .
10

A n d t h a t is

w h e n I h a d a ls o h e a r d s u b s e q u e n t ly n o b u t t h i s i s t h e a n g l e i n w h ic h h e
is m o v i n g t o w a r d . H e h a s a p p a r e n tly m a d e c h a n g e s t h a t – t h a t t h e
E d it o r in C h i e f is n o w t h e C O O a n d n o t t h e C E O .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

M s P i ll a y a n d in p a r a g r a p h 1 5 o f y o u

s t a te m e n t y o u ta lk a b o u t th e c a n c e l la t io n o f t h e e d it o r s . W h a t w a s t h e
a ft e r m a t h a n d c o n s e q u e n c e o f t h e r e m o v a l o f t h i s s h o w ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I t w a s a w f u l . C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e p r o g r a m w a s a c t u a l ly m o v e d ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I t w a s c a n c e l l e d . I t w a s c a n c e l l e d i m m e d i a t e ly.
I t w a s t h e l o w e s t p o in t o f m y c a r e e r b e c a u s e i t w a s l e ft u p t o m e to
20

h a v e t o g o t o m y c o l le a g u e s , m y s e n i o r p r o d u c e r s a n d p r o d u c e r s a n d
le t t h e m k n o w

w h a t h a d ju s t tr a n s p ir e d i n a

m e e ti n g .

I fe l t

e m b a r r a s s e d . I f e l t l ik e I l e t t h e te a m d o w n . I d i d tr y m y b e s t t o g a r n e r
r e a s o n in g fr o m M r M o t s o e n e n g t h a t I c a n t a k e b a c k t o m y t e a m .

He

w o u ld n o t li s te n t o a n y – h e w o u l d n o t e v e n e n t e r t a i n m y q u e s ti o n s a t
t h a t m e e t in g a n d I w a s b a s ic a l ly t o l d y o u h a v e n o c h o i c e o n t h e m a t te r

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
and if you do not do it you know my job was threatened.
I s u b s e q u e n tl y c a m e b a c k t o t h e o ffi c e a n d w e m a d e t h e
a n n o u n c e m e n t t o th e t e a m . I - it d id n o t s i t w e ll w i t h m e a t a l l . I h a d
s le e p l e s s n i g h t s a f t e r w a r d s b e c a u s e w h e n I w a s a s tu d e n t a t R h o d e s
U n iv e r s i ty S A F M w a s th e p r o g r a m - i t w a s t h e p i n n a c l e p r o g r a m th a t a
jo u r n a li s t w o r k e d t o w a r d a n d t h e f a c t t h a t I w a s n o w s i t ti n g in a
p o s i ti o n th a t I h a d a s p ir e d t o b e s i t ti n g i n a n d - a n d a p r o g r a m o f th is
c a l i b r e w a s r e m o v e d u n d e r my w a tc h I r e a ll y f e lt t h a t I l e t d o w n my
t e a m a n d I le t d o w n l is t e n e r s a n d I to o k i t q u i te p e r s o n a lly.
M y c o l le a g u e B u s i s i w e N t u l i t h e n a f t e r h e a r i n g a b o u t w h a t

10

h a p p e n e d - T h a n d e k a a n d B u s is i w e h a d c o m e t o m y o ff ic e a n d B u s is i w e
b a s ic a lly s a i d w h a t a r e y o u g o in g t o d o a b o u t it a n d I s a i d I c a n n o t b e
q u i e t a n y m o r e b e c a u s e t h is h a s g o n e t o o f a r a n d t h a t is w h e n
B u s is iw e N tu li , J a c q u e s S t e e n k a m p a n d m y s e l f s a t d o w n t o d r a ft t h is
le t t e r t o M r M o t s o e n e n g a n d B u s is iw e a n d J a c q u e s s a id w e w il l s u p p o r t
you.
I t is n o t o u r p r o g r a m b u t w e w i ll s u p p o r t y o u b e c a u s e w e
b e li e v e i n t h e p r o g r a m a n d - a n d w e a ls o b e l ie v e th a t w h a t h e h a s d o n e
is w r o n g . S o w e g o t t o g e th e r t h e th r e e o f u s a n d w e d r a f t e d t h is l e t t e r.
20

B y t h is ti m e o u r c o l le a g u e s T h a n d e k a , F o e t a a n d S u n a w e r e a lr e a d y
suspended.

Th a n d e k a j o i n e d u s w h e n w e h a d o u r m e e t in g a n d w e

lo o k e d a t th e j o u r n a li s t ic p r e s c r i p t s .
W e l o o k e d a t e d it o r i a l i n d e p e n d e n c e . W e d r a f t e d a l e t t e r a n d
w e a s k e d M r M o t s o e n e n g w e ju s t w a n t y o u t o t e ll u s - g u i d e u s a s t o
y o u r t h i n k in g a s to w h y t h e s e p r o g r a m s in th e n e w s p a p e r s a r e

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
c a n c e l le d .

Te l l u s w h y y o u a r e s u s p e n d in g c o ll e a g u e s w h o a r e j u s t

d e b a ti n g a n d - a n d w e s e n t t h a t l e tt e r o ff a n d I o n ly f e l t b e t te r o n c e
t h a t l e t te r w a s s e n t.
S o w e - w e s e n t o ff t h a t l e t te r b u t t h e s e n io r p r o d u c e r s I h a d
a s k e d t h e m t o k e e p a l l t h e e m a i ls a n d C h a ir e v e r y d a y w i t h o u t f a i l
e v e r y d a y w e w e r e g e tt i n g e m a il s .
la p to p .

I s t ill h a v e t h e m s t o r e d o n m y

T h e s e n i o r p r o d u c e r s w e r e c o l le c t in g d is g r u n t l e d e m a ils fr o m

lis t e n e r s w h o h a v e b e e n l is t e n i n g f o r y e a r s a n d li s t e n e r s w h o a r e i n
r u r a l a r e a s . R e m e m b e r r a d i o is a v e r y p o w e r f u l t o o l .
10

T h e r e is o n ly a f e w p e o p l e th a t a r e o n s o c ia l m e d i a b u t r a d i o
is a c c e s s i b l e to e v e r y o n e a n d t h e y w e r e v e r y u p s e t a n d t h e y w a n t e d
t h e p r o g r a m t o c o m e b a c k a n d q u i t e a f e w l is t e n e r s i n c lu d in g o n e
A n it a J o n k e r a s a l e c tu r e r a t a u n i v e r s i ty s h e w e n t s tr a i g h t t o t h e
B C C S A a n d th e r e s t o f t h e l is t e n e r s c a m e t o u s a n d w e s ti ll f o r w a r d e d
t h o s e e m a i ls t o M r M o ts o e n e n g b u t n o b o d y w a s w il li n g t o l is te n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C a n I t a k e y o u b a c k ? I s h o u ld h a v e a s k e d y o u e a r l i e r
w h e n th is - t h e m e d i a s t a t e m e n t th a t t o l d th e p u b lic a b o u t w h a t y o u
la t e r te r m e d t h e p r o t e s t p o lic y y o u s a id t h a t y o u o n ly g o t t o k n o w a b o u t
it fr o m t h e m e d i a . Wa s i t u s u a l a t S A B C t h a t if t h e r e w a s t o b e a n e w

20

p o li c y o n s o m e t h i n g o r i f t h e r e w a s t o b e a c h a n g e o f p o l ic y o n
s o m e t h i n g t h e r e w o u l d b e n o c o n s u lt a ti o n - p r i o r c o n s u l t a ti o n s w i t h a ll
t h o s e w h o m a y b e a ff e c t e d b y i t?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

Ye s

and

no

C h a ir.

Sometimes

there

is

c o n s u l t a ti o n a n d s o m e t i m e s t h e r e i s n o t . W e h a v e i n th e o r g a n is a ti o n
w h a t w e c a l l r e d i ff u s io n w h e r e e v e r y b o d y f r o m a c r o s s t h e c o u n tr y a n d -

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a l l t h e o ff ic e s tu n e i n a n d l is te n w h e n e i th e r th e e x e c u t iv e s o f t h e b o a r d
g e t t o g e t h e r t o - t o d is s e m i n a te i n f o r m a t io n to u s o r t o p e r h a p s t a lk
a b o u t t h e p o s s i b i li ty o f i n tr o d u c in g a n e w p o l ic y t o g a u g e v ie w s .
S o th a t i s o n e w a y. S o m e t i m e s i t h a p p e n s b u t th is th e r e w a s
c e r t a i n l y n o c o n s u l ta t i o n . T h i s w a s a d ir e c ti v e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. On - on this …
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O n th is p a r t ic u l a r o n e a n d t h e is s u e th a t t h e fi n a l

r e s p o n s i b i li ty f o r n e w s n o w l a y w i th t h e - w i t h h i m a n d I t h i n k y o u h a v e
10

s a i d a n d o t h e r w i t n e s s e s s a i d th a t t h e n o r m w a s t h a t t h e E d i t o r i n C h i e f
w o u ld b e t h e G r o u p C E O .

N o w w a s t h a t a ls o n o t n o ti f ie d t o t h e

n e w s r o o m - t o th e n e w s p e o p l e i n a d v a n c e ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I s t a n d t o b e c o r r e c t e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I n m y r e c o ll e c t io n I w a s n o t n o ti f ie d v ia …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : E m a i l o r v i a r e d i ff u s io n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : O r a n y t h i n g .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u o n ly g o t to k n o w a t t h e m e e ti n g ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. A lr ig h t . T h a n k y o u . T h e n l e t u s g o b a c k
t o y o u - y o u w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e r e a c t io n o f t h e l is t e n e r s o f t h e
program …
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: Hm.

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
C H A I R P E R S O N : To th e c a n c e ll a ti o n o f t h e p r o g r a m . I f y o u s t il l w a n t
t o s a y s o m e th in g y o u c a n c o n ti n u e .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

C h a ir, I a ls o - I r e c e i v e d a l o t o f h a t e m a i l o n

s o c ia l m e d i a w h i c h - s o m e o f it is s ti ll t h e r e - w h e r e - w h e r e p e o p l e
t h o u g h t t h a t I m a d e t h e d e c is io n t o c a n c e l th e e d i t o r s b e c a u s e I a m t h e
E x e c u t iv e Pr o d u c e r o f t h e s h o w. I t w a s v e r y h a r d f o r m e t o h a v e to g o
t h r o u g h th a t b e c a u s e i t w a s n o t o f m y d o i n g b u t I w a s n o t g o i n g t o - t o
u n d e r t a k e a d is c u s s i o n w i th - w it h l is t e n e r s o n - o n s o c i a l m e d i a .
A - a s ta t e m e n t w a s n e v e r is s u e d to s a y t h a t i t w a s
10

M r M o ts o e n e n g ’s d e c i s i o n .

S o I h a d t o b e a r th e b r u n t b u t e v e n t u a ll y

o b v i o u s l y w i th t h e a d v e n t o f s p e a k i n g o u t a n d - a n d w i t h P a r li a m e n t
e tc e t e r a t h e n t h e v ie w e r s r e a l is e d i t w a s - i t w a s n o t o f m y p e r s o n a l
d o i n g th a t th e - t h a t t h e p r o g r a m w a s c a n c e l l e d . A ls o I u s e d t o fi e l d a
lo t o f t e l e p h o n e c a ll s .
M y - my o ffi c e n u m b e r w a s c ir c u l a t e d a n d I w o u l d s i t o n t h e
p h o n e w i th l is te n e r s a n d th e y w e r e v e r y u p s e t .

J a , a n d - a n d t h a t is

t h e e x te n t o f t h e d i s g r u n tl e d n a t u r e o f o u r li s te n e r s a n d w h ic h w a s - i t
w a s v e r y s a d b e c a u s e t h i s is e ff e c ti v e ly th e p e o p l e w e h a v e to s e r v e .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: Hm.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e m e d i a s t a t e m e n t w h i c h h a d a n n o u n c e d t h e p o l ic y
d i d i t n o t m a k e i t c l e a r t h a t i t w a s M r M o ts o e n e n g w h o h a d m a d e t h e
d e c is i o n ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d i t s i m p ly s a y S A B C w it h o u t s a y i n g w h o ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I - I d o n o t r e c a l l . I w o n d e r i f i t is h e r e a s a …

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C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e l l i f i t i s w e w i ll c h e c k . I j u s t …
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I j u s t - I j u s t t h in k o f t h i s s i t u a t i o n w h e r e p e o p l e t h i n k
y o u a r e t h e o n e w h o m a d e t h e d e c is i o n .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n y o u d id n o t m a k e t h e d e c i s i o n .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I t i s - p u b l ic d e c e p ti o n is a c r u e l t h in g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : E v e n w h e n a y e a r a g o t h e r e w e r e c h a n g e s m a d e
10

t o S A F M w h e r e c u r r e n t a ff a ir h o u r s w e r e r e d u c e d d r a s t ic a ll y fr o m s ix
h o u r s t o t w o h o u r s a d a y. I w a s - a l s o h a d to b e a r th e b r u n t o f s o c i a l
m e d i a b u l ly in g b e c a u s e i t w a s v e r y p o p u la r p r o g r a m s t h a t w e r e
c a n c e l le d .
A M l iv e a n d P M li v e a n d t h a t t o o - li s te n e r s t h o u g h t t h a t I w a s
b e h in d t h a t a n d t h e y - s o m e o f th e m w e n t a s f a r a s l ik e n i n g m e t o
M r M o ts o e n e n g s a y i n g t h a t I a m a s b a d a s - a s h e is a n d - a n d a g a in I
k e p t q u i e t . I b l o c k e d p e o p l e w h o w e r e b u l ly i n g m e o n s o c ia l m e d i a b u t
I n e v e r e n g a g e d . I ju s t d id n o t e n g a g e w i t h t h e p u b l ic o n s o c i a l m e d i a .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

20

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Thank you.

Th e m e d ia s t a te m e n t w e

c u r r e n tly d o n o t h a v e i t b u t d u r i n g th e t e a b r e a k w e c a n a tt e m p t t o - to
s o u r c e i t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

M s P il la y ju s t t o s t a y j u s t o n t o p o f

y o u r e v i d e n c e . Yo u m e n ti o n e d a l e t te r t h a t w a s s e n t . T h a t is a t t a c h e d

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
o n y o u r - o n y o u r s u p p l e m e n t a r y s t a t e m e n t . T h a t i s o n p a g e 2 5 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A c t u a ll y e a r l i e r o n I th o u g h t I h a d f o u n d th e

s u p p l e m e n t a r y s ta t e m e n t b u t I d i s c o v e r e d th a t I h a d n o t . N o w I f o u n d
it .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

So

you

say

the

l e tt e r

is

attached

to

the

supplementary statement?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s C h a ir o n p a g e 2 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
10

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Ms P i ll a y t h a t i s - t h a t i s t h e - is th is

t h e l e t t e r t h a t w a s s e n t t o Mr M o ts o e n e n g a f t e r th e c a n n i n g o f t h e
e d i to r s ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th a t i s c o r r e c t.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

C h a i r t h is - th is le t t e r is q u i t e l e n g t h y

b u t I fi n d i t v e r y c r i tic a l t h a t M s P il la y d o e s r e a d i t i n t o r e c o r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e ll s h e c a n d o o n e o f t w o t h i n g s . O n e , i f s h e
a b l e to t e ll m e t h e m a i n fe a t u r e s o f th e c o n te n ts o f t h e l e tt e r w i th o u t
r e a d in g i t . M a y b e r e a d in g o n e o r t w o p a r a g r a p h s th a t is fi n e b u t i f y o u
t h i n k th e r e i s p a r ti c u la r i m p o r t a n c e y o u k n o w r e a d in g t h e w h o le le t t e r
20

t h a t w i ll b e fi n e . W h a t is y o u r o w n s e n s e ?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

C h a ir m y o w n s e n s e i s t h a t th e e n tir e

le t t e r is i m p o r ta n t b e c a u s e i t t o u c h e s b a s e o n th e e d i t o r s .

I t a ls o

touches base of you know …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Th e p u r g e a n d s u s p e n s i o n o f t h e o th e r

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
m e m b e r s o f th e S A B C e i g h t a n d s o fo r t h …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : In t h a t c o n t e x t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: She may read it.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : M s Pi ll a y c a n y o u ju s t a ls o j u s t i d e n ti f y
y o u k n o w fr o m t h e t o p w h o th e l e t te r w a s s e n t t o , w h o w a s a ls o c c ’ d i n
t h e le t t e r a n d t h e c o n t e n t s o f t h e le t t e r ?
10

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

O k a y.

C h a ir t h e l e tt e r w a s f o r a t t e n t i o n S A B C

C h i e f O p e r a ti n g O ff ic e r M r H l a u d i M o t s o e n e n g a t S A B C R a d i o P a r k
corner

of

H e n le y

and

A r ti ll e r y

Road.

It

was

a ls o

copied

to

J i m i M a tt h e w s Ac t in g G r o u p C E O , t o S i m o n Te b e l e A c ti n g G E N e w s , to
S e b o l e l o D i tl h a k a n y a n e G M R a d io N e w s , t o N y a n a M o l e t e A c ti n g G M
T V, to A n g i e K a p e l i a n is N a ti o n a l E d i to r R a d i o C u r r e n t A ff a ir s , to
N o t h a n d o M a s e k o Ac t in g H e a d T V C u r r e n t A ff a i r s a n d t o Z o li s a S i g a b i
N a t io n a l B u ll e ti n E d i t o r. Th e ti t le w a s :
“ R e q u e s t f o r E d i to r i a l P o l ic y C l a r i ty a n d C o n c e r n
o v e r U n f a ir S u s p e n s i o n s : w e t h e u n d e r s i g n e d w r i te
20

t h is l e t te r t o y o u t o r e g is t e r o u r d is p l e a s u r e a n d
in c r e a s i n g c o n c e r n a b o u t t h e r e c e n t d e v e l o p m e n t s
o c c u r r i n g i n th e S A B C N e w s r o o m .

Our newsroom

h a s b e c o m e a s o u r c e o f d e r is i o n , d e s p a ir a n d
c r i ti c is m f r o m t h e p e o p l e t h a t w e a r e fu n d a m e n t a lly
a c c o u n t a b l e t o t h e p u b li c a t l a r g e . I n p a r t ic u l a r t h e

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
d e v e l o p m e n ts o f t h e p a s t w e e k h a v e h e ig h t e n e d th e
s e n s e o f fe a r, l a c k o f c la r i ty a b o u t o u r j o u r n a li s t ic
r e s p o n s i b i li ty a n d l o w s ta ff m o r a l e p e r m e a ti n g o u r
n e w s r o o m s b e c a u s e o f w h a t w e c o n s i d e r e d to b e
normal

editorial

e n g a g e m e n ts

and

the

usual

c o n te s t a ti o n o f i d e a s d u r i n g a d i a r y m e e ti n g .
a d d it i o n

we

are

of

the

view

th a t

the

In

recent

d e c is i o n s t o r e m o v e th e n e w s p a p e r s l o ts a n d t h e
e d i to r s o n S A F M ’s A M liv e a m o u n ts t o w h a t w e
10

consider

censorship

unless

reasonable

and

p r o f e s s i o n a l e x p l a n a t io n s c a n b e a d v a n c e d w i t h i n i n
t h e fr a m e w o r k o f o u r E d i t o r i a l P o l ic y a n d o u r
o b li g a ti o n

to

serve

the

p u b li c .

As

seasoned

jo u r n a li s ts w it h in th e S A B C w e m a in t a i n t h a t t h e
r e a s o n s g i v e n fo r t h e s e s u d d e n d e c i s i o n s c o n tr a d ic t
o u r g o v e r n i n g p o l ic ie s a n d l e g is la t io n . N a m e l y t h e
SABC

E d i to r i a l

B r o a d c a s ti n g

Ac t

Code,

the

South

A fr ic a n

and

the

South

A fr ic a n

C o n s t i tu t io n . A s jo u r n a l is t h a v in g to o p e r a ti o n a lis e
20

t h e p o l ic i e s o f th is p u b li c i n s ti t u ti o n w h ic h i s
i m p o r t a n t fo r th e p r o m o ti o n o f o u r d e m o c r a c y w e
f e e l a g g r ie v e d t h a t th e i m a g e o f o u r i n s ti t u ti o n , o u r
jo u r n a li s t in t e g r i ty c o n t i n u e s to b e c o m p r o m is e d b y
u n c o n s t i tu t io n a l p r o n o u n c e m e n ts

that erode

the

c r e d i b ili t y o f t h e S A B C a n d t h e jo u r n a l is ti c i n te g r i ty

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o f a ll o f u s w h o w o r k fo r i t . Fu r t h e r m o r e w e w is h to
r e g is t e r o u r d e e p c o n c e r n fo r o u r c o l l e a g u e s w h o
have been suspended for expressing their right to
fr e e d o m o f e x p r e s s io n b y s i m p l y d e b a ti n g a n d
assessing

th e

n e w s w o r th in e s s

of

e x p e c te d d u r i n g e d i t o r i a l m e e ti n g s .
v ie w

the

suspensions

F o e t a Kr i g e
v ic ti m i s a t io n .
10

and

of

e v e n ts

as

As such we

Thandeka Gqubule,

S u n a Ve n t e r

as

a c ts

of

A n e d i to r i a l m e e ti n g is t o d e b a t e ,

d e li b e r a t e , a r g u e a n d fi n d c o n s e n s u s o n n e w s
s t o r ie s .

However

based

on

the

recent

d e v e l o p m e n ts i t s e e m s t h a t t h is n o l o n g e r a ll o w e d
d u r i n g e d i t o r i a l li n e t a lk s .

A s i t u a t i o n th a t w e

b e li e v e n e e d s t o b e c h a l l e n g e d .

W e a r e e t h i c a ll y

a n d l e g a lly b o u n d b y t h e p r o v i s i o n s o f t h e S o u t h
A fr ic a n C o n s ti t u ti o n in p a r tic u l a r S e c t i o n 1 6 1 ( a )
C h a p te r 2 i n t h e B il l o f R i g h t s .

L i k e w is e w e a r e

b o u n d b y t h e B r o a d c a s ti n g A c t a n d t h e S A B C ’s
m a n d a t e fr o m t h e S o u th A f r i c a n p u b li c .
20

shocked

by

the

la t e s t

We are

p r o n o u n c e m e n ts

that

f u n d a m e n t a lly e r o d e t h e r i g h t o f th e p u b li c t o k n o w
t h e w h o le s t o r y a b o u t t h e d e v e l o p m e n ts i n th e ir
c o m m u n i ti e s a n d t o d i s p l a y s u c h s t o r ie s i n a
responsible manner as has been done as per ICASA
a n d B C C S A r e q u ir e m e n ts .

These pronouncements

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
a ffe c tiv e l y
p r o v i d in g

render

our

c o m p e l li n g

newsrooms
audio

visual

in c a p a b le
content

of
that

e d u c a t e s a n d i n f o r m s t h e p u b l ic t o d i s s e m i n a te
balanced

and

accurate

i n f o r m a t io n .

We

the

u n d e r s ig n e d t h e r e f o r e r e q u e s t a n u r g e n t m e e t i n g
w i t h t h e C O O t o g a in c la r i ty a n d r e s o l v e t h e a b o v e
in d i c a t e d m a t t e r s . O u r p r i m a r y i n te r e s t i s t o c l a r if y
t h e c o n f u s io n a n d fi n d a l a s ti n g s o lu t io n t h a t w i ll
a ls o p r o v i d e g u id e li n e s o n a l l i s s u e s e d i t o r i a l.
10

L a s tly w e h o p e t h a t t h i s w il l a ls o r e s t o r e o u r p u b l ic
i m a g e a n d u p h o l d o u r i n te g r i ty in t h e e y e s o f t h o s e
we are meant to serve.
E x e c u t iv e

Pr o d u c e r

S ig n e d , B u s i s i w e N tu li
Special

As s ig n m e n t ,

K r iv a n i P il l a y E x e c u t iv e Pr o d u c e r S A F M C u r r e n t
A ff a ir s a n d J a c q u e s S t e e n k a m p S e n i o r I n v e s ti g a tiv e
R e p o r t e r. ”
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

T h a n k y o u M s P ill a y.

Did you ever

r e c e i v e a - a r e s p o n s e o r y o u k n o w a m e e ti n g w i th t h e t h e n C E O M r M r M o ts o e n e n g ?
20

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : N o C h a i r I d i d n o t .
CHAIRPERSON:

I - I t a k e i t t h a t - th a t r e f e r e n c e t o S e c t i o n 1 6 1 ( a )

C h a p te r 2 i n t h e B il l o f R ig h ts m a y h a v e b e e n a - a ty p o b e c a u s e t h e y o u m u s t h a v e b e e n r e f e r r i n g t o t h e S e c ti o n 1 6 .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : 1 6 , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S u b s e c ti o n 1 ( a ) …

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h d e a l s w i th fr e e d o m o f e x p r e s s i o n a n d s o o n ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. N o t h a t is f i n e .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

W h a t w a s th e

c o n s e q u e n c e i f a n y w h a t - w h a t h a p p e n e d a ft e r is s u i n g t h is l e t te r ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

A f t e r i s s u i n g t h i s - th is l e t te r w a s i s s u e d o n

S a t u r d a y o r S u n d a y.

O n t h e M o n d a y m o r n i n g J i m i M a tt h e w s h a d

r e s ig n e d v ia s o c i a l m e d i a . W e a l l f o u n d o u t v ia s o c ia l m e d i a C h a ir a n d
10

t h e n f o u r d a y s l a t e r o n a Th u r s d a y a f t e r n o o n I w a s g i v e n n o tic e t o
a p p e a r b e f o r e a d is c i p l in a r y h e a r in g o n t h e Fr id a y.

I w a s g iv e n l e s s

t h a n 2 4 h o u r s ’ n o tic e t o a p p e a r.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n th a t h a p p e n e d t h e r e h a d b e e n n o r e s p o n s e

fr o m M r M o ts o e n e n g to t h e l e t t e r o r th e r e h a d b e e n ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th e r e h a d b e e n n o r e s p o n s e . T h a t w a s th e fir s t
ti m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o r w a s th a t t h e r e s p o n s e ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

T h a t w a s th e r e s p o n s e w a s t h e d is c i p l in a r y

h e a r in g .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, h m .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

M s P il la y if y o u c a n j u s t t u r n to p a g e

2 7 ? It is j u s t a ft e r t h e le t t e r.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : I s t h is t h e le t t e r y o u - y o u a r e s p e a k i n g
a b o u t th e r e s p o n s e th a t y o u r e c e i v e d f o r y o u t o g o t o a d i s c i p li n a r y

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
h e a r in g ? C a n y o u ju s t t a l k t o th is l e t te r ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

S o t h is is th e le t t e r I r e c e iv e d a f te r t h e

d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g . T h e r e i s o n e le t t e r m is s i n g w h ic h is t h e fir s t o n e
w h ic h w e w i ll tr y a n d g e t t o y o u .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : O k a y.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : S o r r y C h a ir. S o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th e o n e l e t te r is t h e i n v i t e to t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e d i s c i p li n a r y h e a r in g .
10

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th e d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : W h i c h w a s a Th u r s d a y a f t e r n o o n t o b e t h e r e f o r
a d i s c i p li n a r y h e a r i n g o n a Fr i d a y m o r n i n g . I h a d n o t b e e n u n i o n is e d a t
t h a t t i m e a n d m y c o ll e a g u e s q u i c k l y r a l li e d a r o u n d m e t o b a s i c a ll y s ig n
u n i o n m e m b e r s h i p f o r m s . Th e f ir s t u n i o n I c a ll e d w a s C W U . I w a s t o l d
t h a t a s h o p s te w a r d w o u l d c o m e a n d m e e t m e . Th e s h o p s te w a r d c a m e
a n d b a s i c a ll y w a s t e d my t i m e b e c a u s e I s u b s e q u e n t ly f o u n d o u t t h a t
C W U h a d n o i n te n ti o n to r e p r e s e n t m e .
I c a l le d B E M AW U .

20

I w a s n o t a m e m b e r o f B E M AW U b u t

B E M AW U a lr e a d y h a d a n o t h e r d is c i p l in a r y h e a r in g th a t - th a t t h e ir s h o p
s t e w a r d w a s a t t e n d in g t h e n e x t d a y. I e ff e c ti v e ly h a d n o a s s i s t a n c e . I
w a i te d t il l 7 o ’ c l o c k f o r C W U to r e t u r n t o m y o ff ic e t o a s s is t m e i n
p r e p a r in g f o r t h is d is c ip li n a r y h e a r i n g . N o b o d y a r r iv e d . I t h e n l o o k e d
out of the SABC.
A f r i e n d o f m in e is a la w y e r b y p r o fe s s i o n . S h e t h e n a r r iv e d

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
a t m y h o m e a n d u p o n o n e lo o k a t th e n o t ic e f o r D C l a u g h e d it o ff
s a y in g i t w a s l e s s t h a n 2 4 h o u r s t o a p p e a r b e fo r e a D C . T h a t i n i ts e l f
is a g a in s t l a b o u r l a w s b u t s h e d i d n e v e r th e l e s s h e lp m e p r e p a r e . I g o t
t o t h e D C o n Fr id a y m o r n i n g a n d …
CHAIRPERSON:

B e fo r e w e - b e f o r e w e g e t t o t h e D C w h a t w a s th e

c h a r g e th a t t h e le t t e r t h a t c a ll e d y o u t o a d is c i p li n a r y i n q u ir y t o l d y o u ,
y o u w e r e g o in g to f a c e o r c h a r g e s ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : T h e y s a i d th a t w e w e r e - w e - w e h a d b a s ic a l ly
b r o u g h t t h e S A B C in t o d is r e p u t e . S o t h a t w e w r o te a l e t te r …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h - o h is t h e l e t te r a t 2 7 - p a g e 2 7 th e o n e th a t y o u
got …
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r d o e s it r e fl e c t t h e c h a r g e s ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : S o t h i s is s i m il a r to t h e c h a r g e s t h a t w e r e i n t h e
fir s t l e t t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : J a . S o t h a t i s w h y I a m - I a m tr y i n g t o r e c a l l - I
b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : W h a t w a s in t h a t f ir s t o n e w h ic h …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I w i ll e n s u r e t h a t I g e t t o th e e v i d e n c e le a d e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t y o u s a y t h e c h a r g e s r e f e r r e d to h e r e …
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th e s e a r e p r e t ty m u c h …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e b a s ic a l ly th e s a m e ?

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. L e t u s - l e t u s h e a r w h a t th e c h a r g e s a r e
b e f o r e w e g e t t o t h e a c t u a l ly h e a r in g . M a y b e s h e c a n r e a d .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Ye s M s P ill a y c a n y o u j u s t r e a d th e

charges.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o r ju s t s a y w h a t t h e c h a r g e s a r e .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

“ Yo u a r e h e r e b y n o t i fi e d i n t e r m s o f

S c h e d u l e 8 o f th e L a b o u r R e l a ti o n s A c t N u m b e r 6 6
o f 1 9 9 5 t h a t a ll e g a t io n s h a v e b e e n r e c e iv e d t h a t
10

you

are

c o n ti n u i n g

to

commit

fu r t h e r

a c ts

of

m is c o n d u c t a ft e r r e c e i v i n g y o u r l e t t e r i n fo r mi n g y o u
o f y o u r d i s c i p li n a r y h e a r i n g . ”
S o th e s e w e r e a d d i ti o n a l t o th e - t o t h e f ir s t d is c i p l in a r y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e fi r s t o n e s ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : L e tt e r C h a ir. S o t h e f a c t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th a t w e w e r e s p e a k in g to t h e m e d ia - s o :
“ Yo u w r o t e a le t t e r t o t h e S A B C C O O r a is in g
c o n c e r n s in r e l a t i o n t o t h e i n s tr u c t io n g i v e n b y h i m
20

and

le a k e d i t t o

d is p la y i n g

the

d is r e s p e c t

media platforms
and

p e r s is t e n c e

thereby
in

your

r e fu s a l to c o m p ly w it h a n i n s tr u c ti o n p e r t a i n i n g t o
t h e E d i t o r i a l P o l ic y o f t h e S A B C a s w e ll a s t h e
d ir e c t iv e n o t t o b r o a d c a s t v i s u a l s , a u d i o o f t h e
d e s tr u c ti o n o f p r o p e r ty d u r in g p r o t e s t a c t i o n . S i n c e

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
t h e p o li c i e s a n d p e r s o n n e l w e r e … ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. B e fo r e th a t …
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : O h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A m I r i g h t t o t h in k t h a t p a r a g r a p h 1 . 1 w h ic h y o u h a v e
ju s t r e a d s e e m s t o s u g g e s t t h a t e v e n r a i s in g c o n c e r n s w i t h t h is C O O
was a problem?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r a n d t h a t i s a ls o h o w …
CHAIRPERSON:

H o w - h o w c a n th a t b e a p r o b le m w h e n s o m e b o d y

r a i s e s c o n c e r n s w i t h - w i t h y o u a b o u t is s u e s a t w o r k ?
10

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : T h is is t h e k in d o f e n v ir o n m e n t w e w o r k e d i n a t
t h a t t i m e C h a ir. N o t h in g m a d e s e n s e r e a l ly. T h e - t h e d ir e c tiv e s th a t
were issued out, the - just nothing made sense.

I w a n t to s a y i t w a s

t h e r a m b li n g s o f a m a d m a n . S o - y o u k n o w t o e d i t i t b u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : R e a l ly n o t h i n g m a d e s e n s e . J u s t u s i n q u ir i n g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : A b o u t i t a n d i t a s a v e r y d ip lo m a t ic le t t e r i n m y in m y o p in io n th a t w e h a d s e n t o u t .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

W e l l m a y - m a y - m a y b e - m a y b e th e r e m i g h t - i n

c e r t a i n c ir c u m s ta n c e s m a y b e t h e r e m ig h t b e s o m e t h i n g a b o u t a n y
a l le g a ti o n o f le a k i n g i t o u ts i d e b u t w h e n o n e r e a d s th e r e o n e g e ts t h e
s e n s e t h a t p a r t o f - o f t h e p r o b l e m is t h a t y o u r a is e d c o n c e r n s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s . W e q u e s t io n e d t h e d e c is io n .
CHAIRPERSON: And how - how does it become
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : A n d h o w d o y o u w o r k in a n e w s r o o m ?

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
C H A I R P E R S O N : O b j e c ti o n a b le t o t h e s e c o n c e r n s ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

N e w s r o o m - j o u r n a lis t ic p r i n c ip l e s a r e a ll a b o u t

a s k in g q u e s ti o n s . A n y s t o r y y o u d o y o u a s k a q u e s t i o n . T h a t is h o w
we get out stories and how is it that you can run a newsroom without
a l lo w in g t h e v e r y p e o p le w h o a r e s u p p o s e d to b e a s k in g q u e s ti o n s b y
p r o f e s s i o n a r e n o t s u p p o s e d t o a s k y o u q u e s ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h a t d o y o u d o if y o u d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d t h e

d ir e c t iv e …
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : W e l l w e w o u l d n o t k n o w …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Without raising concerns?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : B e c a u s e w e w e r e n e v e r a ff o r d e d t h e a u d i e n c e o r
- or …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th e r e s p o n s e t o o u r l e t te r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. Al r i g h t . 1 . 2 .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : 1 . 2 :
“ S i n c e th e p o l ic i e s a n d p e r s o n n e l r e g u la ti o n s a r e
in c o r p o r a t e d i n t o y o u r e m p l o y m e n t c o n t r a c t y o u r
c o n d u c t a s s ta t e d a b o v e c o n s ti t u t e s a c o n t r a v e n t i o n
o f P a r a g r a p h 2 ( d ) o f t h e R e g u la t io n s i n t h a t y o u

20

m a d e c o m m e n ts o r p u b l is h e d a n a r t ic le i n t h e m e d ia
o n y o u r t e r m s a n d c o n d i t io n s o f t h e c o n tr a c t w h i le
y o u w e r e i n s e r v ic e o f t h e S A B C w i t h o u t p r i o r
c o n s e n t o f t h e G r o u p C h ie f E x e c u t iv e . ”
1 .3 :

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
“ I t a l s o c o n t r a v e n e s s e c ti o n - R e g u l a ti o n 2 ( e ) i n
t h a t i t c o n s t i tu t e s a r e fu s a l t o o b e y a n d c a r r y o u t
r e a s o n a b l e a n d l a w f u l i n s tr u c t io n s i n c l u d i n g t h e
p o li c i e s a n d r e g u l a ti o n s o f t h e S A B C . I t a m o u n t s t o
in s u b o r d i n a t io n a n d c o n t r a v e n e s C la u s e 2 .1 o f t h e
Disciplinary Code and Procedure.”
1 .4 :
“It

u n d e r m in e s

the

e d i to r i a l

r e s p o n s i b ili t y

and

a u t h o r i ty o f t h e S A B C a s v e s t e d u p o n i ts C h ie f
O p e r a t in g O ffic e r i n t e r m s o f P a r a g r a p h 2 o f t h e

10

S A B C R e v is e d E d i t o r i a l P o li c y 2 0 1 6 . ”
P o in t 2 :
“ S i n c e r e c e iv in g y o u r … ”
S o th o s e a r e j u s t t h e c h a r g e s n o w C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. M a y b e f o r t h e s a k e o f c o m p l e te n e s s y o u
c a n r e a d th e …
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : O k a y.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e - t h e la s t t w o p a r a g r a p h s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : P o i n t 2 :
“ S i n c e r e c e iv in g y o u r d is c i p l in a r y h e a r i n g n o tic e
y o u c o n t in u o u s l y t o o k p a r t in m e d ia in t e r v ie w s w i t h
v a r io u s

d a ily

newspapers

r e s u l t in g

in

th e

p u b lic a ti o n o f a r ti c l e s w h e r e i n y o u h a d c r i tic is e d

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
a n d d i s p la y e d d i s r e s p e c t a n d p e r s is t e n c e i n y o u r
r e fu s a l to c o m p ly w it h a n i n s tr u c ti o n p e r t a i n i n g t o
t h e E d i t o r i a l P o l ic y o f t h e S A B C a s w e ll a s t h e
d ir e c t iv e n o t t o b r o a d c a s t v i s u a l s , a u d i o o f t h e
d e s tr u c ti o n o f p r o p e r t y d u r i n g p r o t e s t a c ti o n . Yo u r
conduct

c o n s t i tu t e d

a

c o n tr a v e n t i o n

of

th e

p r e s c r i p t s s e t o u t in P a r a g r a p h s 1 . 2 t o 1 . 4 . ”
P o in t n u m b e r 3 :
“ Yo u a r e a c c o r d i n g l y a ff o r d e d a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o
10

s t a te y o u r c a s e in r e s p o n s e t o t h e s e a ll e g a ti o n s . I n
that

regard

you

are

e n ti t le d

to

prepare

th a t

r e s p o n s e w i t h t h e a s s i s t a n c e o f a tr a d e u n i o n
r e p r e s e n t a tiv e , a f e l lo w e m p l o y e e o r l a w y e r s o f
y o u r o w n c h o ic e . S u c h r e s p o n s e m u s t b e d e li v e r e d
t o my o ff ic e n o l a t e r th a n 4 o ’ c l o c k o n F r i d a y
1 5 J u ly fa il in g w h ic h I w il l a s s u m e y o u h a v e n o
a n s w e r t o t h e a ll e g a t io n s le v e ll e d a g a i n s t y o u . ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. B e f o r e w e p r o c e e d I j u s t w a n t t o t a k e y o u b a c k
t o s o o n a f t e r y o u h a d s e n t t h e l e tt e r t o Mr M o t s o e n e n g a n d t o t h e
20

c o p i e s - c o p i e d o t h e r p e o p l e i n c l u d i n g M r J i m i M a tt h e w s . Yo u s a i d t h a t
y o u h a d s e n t th e l e t t e r o n a S a t u r d a y a n d …
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir. I t w a s a S u n d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh a Sunday?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d th e n y o u s a y - y o u s a i d s o o n t h e r e a f te r o r

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
w a s i t th e fo ll o w i n g d a y M r J i m i M a t t h e w s r e s i g n e d ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

S o w e - if I c o r r e c tl y r e m e m b e r i t w a s e a r l y

e v e n i n g S u n d a y n i g h t C h a ir.

W e h a d s e n t o ff t h e l e t te r.

We had all

m e t t o s i g n - s c a n i t a n d s e n d i t a n d o n my w a y t o w o r k o n M o n d a y
m o r n in g r o u n d a b o u t 7 o ’ c lo c k I r e c e iv e d a p h o n e c a ll fr o m a n o t h e r
media

house

asking

if

I

had

heard

about

the

r e s i g n a t io n

of

J i m i M a tt h e w s a n d t h a t w a s h o w I f o u n d i t a n d i t w a s a b o u t a c o u p l e o f
h o u r s l a t e r th a t I h a d s e e n t h e s o c i a l m e d i a p o s t th a t h e h a d i n d e e d
r e s ig n e d .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Do -

d o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r h is r e s i g n a ti o n w a s

c o n n e c t e d in a n y w a y w i t h t h e s ta n d t h a t y o u w o u ld o r w h a t y o u s a i d in
t h e le t t e r a s a g r o u p o r y o u d o n o t … ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I f o u n d t h e t i m i n g t o b e q u it e c o in c i d e n t a l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : B u t I - I c o u ld n o t s a y fo r s u r e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c o u l d n o t s a y ? O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Thank you.

M s P il l a y o n t h a t l e t t e r

p a g e 2 8 p a r a g r a p h 2 i t is s t a t e d t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. W h a t p a g e ?
20

A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : P a g e 2 8 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Paragraph 2.

It is s t a t e d th a t t h e

d ir e c t iv e n o t to b r o a d c a s t d e s tr u c ti o n o f p r o p e r ty i n - i n p r o t e s ts a n d s o
f o r th . W a s t h a t in li n e w i th t h e E d i to r i a l P o l ic y ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

T h a t w a s n o t i n l i n e w i th t h e E d i t o r i a l P o l ic y.

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
T h e E d i t o r i a l P o l ic y is c l e a r C h a i r - I b e g y o u r p a r d o n .
P o lic y is c l e a r.

T h e E d i t o r ia l

T h e o n ly t h in g t h a t w e a r e n o t g o in g to b r o a d c a s t i f

s o m e t h i n g in c i t e s v i o l e n c e o r r a c i s m o r t h in g s th a t a r e a g a i n s t o u r B i ll
o f R i g h t s i n t h e C o n s t i tu t io n . T h a t is - y o u k n o w t h e r e is - th e r e is j u s t
- t h e r e i s a w h o le lo t o f p r e s c r i p ts - e d i t o r i a l p r e s c r i p t s .
I d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d h o w s h o w i n g t h e d e s tr u c ti o n o f p r o p e r ty I w a n t t o g iv e y o u s o m e c o n t e x t C h a ir. T h e s e p r o te s t p o l ic y - p r o te s t
a c ti o n a r e s e r v i c e d e l iv e r y p r o t e s ts t h a t w e r e h a v e - th a t w e r e
o c c u r r i n g a c r o s s t h e c o u n t r y. Th e t i m in g o f th is w a s j u s t w e e k s b e fo r e
10

a n e l e c t io n .

A l l t h e p e o p le t h a t w e w e r e i n te r v i e w i n g t h a t w e w e r e

v ie w in g th a t w e w e r e - t h e c o m m u n i ty l e a d e r s t h a t w e h a d o n o u r
p r o g r a m s ta lk e d a b o u t s e r v ic e d e liv e r y.
T h e y t a l k e d a b o u t a c c e s s to w a t e r a n d s a n i ta t io n .

They

t a lk e d a b o u t h o m e s . T h e y ta lk e d a b o u t j o b s . Th e y t a lk e d a b o u t f o o d .
T h e y t a lk e d a b o u t i n f r a s t r u c t u r e , r i g h t .
named

the

T h e y - th e y th e n n a m e d th e ir

c o u n c i ll o r s .

They

governing

p a r ty.

They

named

Government.

Ac c o r d in g to t h e m t h e i r le a d e r s w e r e t o b l a m e fo r

n o n - s e r v i c e d e li v e r y.
S o w h e n s o m e b o d y s a y s I a m g o in g t o b a n t h is , th e a u d i o a n d
20

t h e v id e o , w e e k s b e fo r e a n e le c ti o n , w h e n s o m e b o d y is c r it ic is in g a n
a d m i n is tr a t i o n i n p o w e r, t h a t ’s a l s o r u n n in g f o r th e s a m e e l e c ti o n , h o w
e ls e d o y o u i n t e r p r e t t h a t C h a ir ?
F o r m e th a t w a s a l r e a d y th e s t a r t o f a c a p t u r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll l e t m e t a k e y o u b a c k b e f o r e w e p r o c e e d , l e t u s
g o b a c k t o t h a t m e e t i n g w h e r e y o u w e r e c o n fr o n t e d a b o u t th e p r o t e s t

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
p o li c y a s y o u c a m e t o c a ll i t .

Yo u s a i d t h a t M r K r i e g e r d i d s a y

s o m e t h i n g , y o u s a i d t h a t y o u r a is e d y o u r h a n d y o u w a n t e d t o s a y
s o m e t h i n g b u t y o u w e r e n o t g iv e n a c h a n c e . W e r e t h e r e o th e r p e o p l e
w h o s p o k e a t th a t m e e t in g o t h e r t h a n Mr M o ts o e n e n g a n d I t h i n k y o u
s a i d M r J i m m y M a t t h e w s a ls o s p o k e , w e r e t h e r e o t h e r p e o p le w h o
s p o k e a t th e m e e ti n g , a n d i f s o w h a t d i d th e y s a y ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

T h e G M o f r a d i o M is s S e b o le l o D i tl h a k a n y a n e

w a s t h e r e w i th u s , s h e a t te m p t e d t o d e f e n d t h e s h o w, t h e e d i to r s b u t h e
s t il l w o u l d n ’ t l is te n to h e r e v e n th o u g h s h e w a s m y l in e m a n a g e r ’s
10

m a n a g e r. S o v e r y s e n i o r p e r s o n b u t h e w o u l d n ’ t e v e n l e t h e r fi n i s h h e r
s e n te n c e a s s e n i o r a s s h e w a s .

So he didn’t let her speak and he

didn’t let me speak.
CHAIRPERSON:

I j u s t w a n t to m a k e s u r e I d o n ’ t m i x u p is s u e , t h e r e ’s

o n ly o n m e e t in g , I th i n k t h a t w e h a v e ta lk e d a b o u t s o fa r, d i d it d is c u s s
b o t h t h e is s u e o f t h e p r o b l e m – t h e e d i to r ’s f o r u m a n d n e w s p a p e r s a n d
t h e p r o t e s t p o li c y o r w a s t h e r e n o m e e ti n g a t w h ic h th e p r o te s t p o lic y
w a s d is c u s s e d ?

20

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

T h i s w a s t h e o n e a n d o n l y m e e ti n g I h a d w i th

M o ts o e n e n g

w h ic h

C h a ir

in

he

d is c u s s e d

th e

e d i to r s

and

the

n e w s p a p e r s w i th m y p r o g r a m m e s a n d – b e c a u s e th o s e p r o g r a m m e s
w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t th e p r o t e s t p o li c y.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h s o t h e p r o t e s t p o li c y w a s d i s c u s s e d b e c a u s e o f

t h a t o k a y, s o I g o t i t r i g h t .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :
CHAIRPERSON:

The content yes on those programmes.

O k a y s o I g o t i t r i g h t , o k a y s o o n ly t h o s e p e o p l e

Page 40 of 230

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
s p o k e a t th a t m e e ti n g ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

Ye s .

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

And M r Krieger spoke but did Mr

M o ts o e n e n g s a y to y o u w h y h e t h o u g h t i t w a s ju s ti fi e d t o c o m e u p w i th
t h is p o li c y a t t h a t m e e ti n g ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

T h e r e w a s n o j u s ti f ic a t i o n C h a ir, h e s a i d h e

w a s i n c h a r g e , to p a r a p h r a s e C h a ir, th e s e a r e n o t t h e e x a c t w o r d , it
w a s b a s ic a l ly m y d e c is i o n g o e s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s , y e s o k a y t h a n k y o u a n d I t h i n k w e w e r e – w h e n

I i n t e r r u p t e d y o u w e w e r e a b o u t t o t a lk a b o u t t h e d is c ip li n a r y h e a r i n g
a n d b e c a u s e I w a n te d t o k n o w w h a t t h e c h a r g e w e r e , w e w e n t t o a
le t t e r t h a t s e e m s to h a v e b e e n a l a te r l e t t e r, is t h a t r ig h t ?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

Ye s s o I ju s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e w e d o n ’ t e n d u p

s k i p p i n g t h e d i s c ip li n a r y h e a r in g , w h a t h a p p e n e d t o i t .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Ye s , M i s s P il l a y y o u s t a t e d , ju s t f o r

c la r i ty p u r p o s e s b e c a u s e w e h a v e d e a lt w i t h t h is s u b s e q u e n t l e t te r y o u
r e c e i v e d a f t e r t h e fi r s t l e tt e r.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :
20

Ye s .

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Yo u s a i d y o u r e c e iv e d l e s s th a n 2 4

h o u r s t o a p p e a r a t t h e d i s c i p li n a r y h e a r in g , y o u r e c e iv e i t o n T h u r s d a y,
Fr id a y w a s s u p p o s e d to b e y o u r D C . N o w w i t h th is l e t t e r i t ’s d a t e d t h e
8 t h o f J u ly a n d y o u w e r e to w r i t e a r e s p o n s e to t h e s e c h a r g e s o n t h e
1 5 t h o f J u ly, n o w t h a t ’s m o r e t h a n 2 4 h o u r s . W h e n d id y o u r e c e i v e t h i s
le t t e r, t h e t h ir d l e t t e r ?

Page 41 of 230

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

S o t h is is t h e s e c o n d l e t te r, 8 t h o f J u ly – C h a i r

it ’s t h e s e c o n d l e tt e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h e o n e th a t y o u g o t o n t h e Th u r s d a y, y o u s a id

y o u d o n ’ t h a v e h e r e b u t y o u w o u l d tr y t o g e t i t f o r u s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

I d o n ’t h a v e s o t h a t w o u ld b e T h u r s d a y ’s d a te

f o r Fr i d a y ’s d is c i p l in a r y, F r i d a y … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Was it the 16th of June, I think I saw some date the

T h u r s d a y … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :
10

N o i t c o u ld n ’t h a v e b e e n t h e 1 6 t h o f J u n e C h a ir

it w o u ld h a v e b e e n e a r l y – i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n e n d J u n e e a r ly J u ly.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

C h a ir s o I w e n t t o t h e d is c i p li n a r y h e a r i n g w i t h

J a c q u e s S t e e n k a m p a n d B u s is i w e N tu li w h o h a d t h e ir la b o u r u n io n r e p s
w i t h t h e m a n d s o l id a r i ty k i n d ly o ff e r e d t o a s s is t m e fr e e o f c h a r g e
b e c a u s e I w a s , f o r w a n t o f a b e t te r w o r d , a lo n e r a n g e r t h e r e o n Fr i d a y
w i t h o u t a n y u n i o n r e p r e s e n t iv i ty a n d s o li d a r i ty h a d t o ld m e t h a t t h e y
w o u ld r e p r e s e n t m e p r o b o n o a n d s i t w it h m e in t h e D C . T h a t D C
started and because of the argument that we had…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:
20

A n d w h o w a s c h a ir i n g i t ?

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

C h a ir, I c a n ’t r e m e m b e r b u t i t w a s a g e n t le m a n

t h a t w a s f lo w n in , I t h in k , fr o m F r e e S t a te P r o v i n c e , f l o w n i n
s p e c i f ic a l ly to c h a i r t h i s D C .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

A n d – s o i n t o it t h e u n i o n r e p r e s e n ta t iv e s

a r g u e w h y t h e D C c o u l d n o t g o a h e a d a n d t h e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

Page 42 of 230

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
CHAIRPERSON:

I’ m s o r r y, t h i s D C y o u h a v e m e n ti o n e d a n u m b e r o f

o th e r c o l l e a g u e s o f y o u r s t h a t c a m e w it h y o u , b u t t h a t D C w a s fo r y o u
o n ly o r w e r e t h e r e a n u m b e r o f y o u f a c i n g c h a r g e s i n t h e s a m e
d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

Th e t h r e e o f u s w h o w r o te t h e l e t te r t o M r

M o ts o e n e n g e t a l .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i t w a s a j o i n t d is c i p l in a r y h e a r i n g ?

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

It w a s a j o in t d is c ip li n a r y h e a r i n g fo r th e t h r e e

of us.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a lr i g h t , y o u m a y c o n t in u e .

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d w h e n t h e y a r g u e d th a t th is
D C c o u l d n o t g o a h e a d f o r v a r i o u s r e a s o n s , i t w a s th e n a d j o u r n e d b u t it
w a s n e v e r r e - s c h e d u le d . T h e r e - s c h e d u li n g w a s t h e 8 t h o f J u ly C h a ir,
t h is le t t e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u g o t t h is l e t te r y e s .

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

W e g o t th is l e t t e r t o t h e n p r o v id e a w r i t t e n

r e s p o n s e b y t h e 1 5 t h o f J u l y a n d th e n i n t h is l e tt e r t h e y a d d e d m o r e
because

they

felt

because

of the

media

interviews

and

a ll

of

t h a t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u w e r e c o n ti n u i n g ?

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

Ex a c t ly s o t h e r e w e r e m o r e c h a r g e s h e r e a n d

t h e n o u r la w y e r s s u b s e q u e n t ly r e s p o n d e d t o th a t le t t e r, m e e t i n g t h e
d e a d l in e o f 4 o ’c lo c k o n th e 1 5 t h o f J u l y b u t u n f o r t u n a t e ly t h e y d id n ’ t
fi n d o u r r e s p o n s e s g o o d e n o u g h a n d w e w e r e s u b s e q u e n t ly fi r e d o n th e
1 8 t h o f J u ly.

Page 43 of 230

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w t h e r e w a s n o d is c ip li n a r y h e a r i n g n o w ?

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :
CHAIRPERSON:

No.

O r ig in a lly t h e id e a w a s t h a t t h e r e w a s g o i n g t o b e

a d is c i p li n a r y h e a r i n g .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

A n d t h i s le t t e r o f th e 8 t h o f J u ly h a d s a i d t h a t y o u r

r e s p o n s e h a d t o r e a c h th e m b y 1 6 h 0 0 o n Fr id a y 1 5 J u l y fa il in g w h ic h
t h e w r i te r w o u l d a s s u m e t h a t y o u h a d n o a n s w e r t o th e a l le g a ti o n s
le v e ll e d a g a in s t y o u . S o o n e c o u l d s a y w e l l, i f th e r e w a s n o r e s p o n s e
10

b y t h e d e a d l i n e , t h e y m ig h t h a v e t a k e n t h e a t ti t u d e th a t t h e r e ’s n o n e e d
f o r a h e a r in g b e c a u s e t h e s e p e o p l e a r e a d m i tt i n g th e s e a l le g a t i o n s b u t
t h e r e s p o n s e w a s fi l e d a n d o n e w o u l d t h e n h a v e e x p e c t e d t h a t t h e r e
w o u ld t h e n b e a d a te f o r a d is c i p l in a r y h e a r i n g b u t y o u s a y th e r e w a s
n o s u c h d a t e , th e r e w a s ju s t a d e c is i o n t o fir e ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s 1 0 0 % c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s .

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

C h a ir t h e y a c t u a lly a c k n o w l e d g e d r e c e i p t o f o u r

r e s p o n s e a n d I d i d n ’ t – t h e y – I’ m p a r a p h r a s i n g a g a in I d o n ’ t k n o w t h e
le g a l ja r g o n t h a t w a s u s e d b a s i c a ll y t o s a y, y o u r l a w y e r s h a v e s e n t u s a
20

r e s p o n s e w e ’v e g o n e t h r o u g h i t a n d w e ’v e ta k e n th e d e c is i o n t o
t e r m in a t e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y s o m e t h i n g l ik e t h e r e s p o n s e h a s n o m e r i t o r

s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :
CHAIRPERSON:

A b s o lu t e l y.

J a o k a y, y e s ?

Page 44 of 230

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

T h a n k y o u M is s P il l a y, s o y o u f il e d –

y o u r l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s f il e d t h e ir r e s p o n s e s o n Fr i d a y b e f o r e 4
o ’c l o c k a n d y o u w e r e s u b s e q u e n tl y fir e d , y o u s a i d t h e 1 8 t h , w a s th e 1 8 t h
on that Monday?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

O n th a t M o n d a y, I r e m e m b e r it c l e a r l y b e c a u s e

it w a s N e l s o n M a n d e l a ’s b ir t h d a y C h a i r a n d t h a t’s a p e r s o n a l h e r o o f
m i n e s o i t ju s t fe l t v e r y ir o n ic t h a t t h e p e r s o n w h o e n c o u r a g e d m e to
g e t in t o j o u r n a lis m , I w o u l d b e f ir e d o n h is b ir t h d a y.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
10

M i s s P il la y o n p a r a g r a p h 1 8 , l e t ’s g o

b a c k to t h e s t a t e m e n t o n p a g e fi v e .
CHAIRPERSON:

We go back to what page?

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

P a g e f iv e o f th e m a i n s t a t e m e n t

C h a ir, t h a t w o u ld b e u n d e r f o l d e r 1 4 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s

you

must

just

r e m in d

me

about

the

f o l d e r … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Folder CC14.

B e c a u s e I c l o s e w h e n w e m o v e to a n o th e r p a g e , I

c lo s e c o m p l e te ly.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
20

T h a t’s fi n e C h a ir, I w i ll r e m in d y o u .

Paragraph 18 – well the second

p a r a g r a p h ju s t u n d e r 1 8 , t h e

s u b s e q u e n t p a r a g r a p h . I t s t a te s t h a t t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n o f t h e e d i t o r s , M r
M o ts o e n e n g j u s t if i e d i t , c a n y o u j u s t e la b o r a t e o n Mr M o t s o e n e n g
ju s t i fic a ti o n o f t h e c a n c e l la t io n o f t h e p r o g r a m m e ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

O k a y s o i t s e e m s t h e n t h a t t h e o n ly r e a s o n f o r

t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n w a s th a t t h e p r o g r a m m e c r i ti c is e d , C h a ir, t h e d e c is i o n

Page 45 of 230

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
o f M r M o ts o e n e n g p r o t e s t p o lic y.

T h e a r g u m e n t th a t Mr M o ts o e n e n g

m a d e w a s t h a t t h e p r o g r a m m e w a s p r o m o ti n g t h e s a l e o f n e w s p a p e r s
w h o s e e d i t o r s w e r e i n te r v i e w e d a n d I f e l t t h a t, th a t a r g u m e n t w a s
ir r e l e v a n t b e c a u s e n e w s p a p e r s a r e n o t t h e d ir e c t c o m p e ti t io n o f a n y
b r o a d c a s t e r. Mr M o t s o e n e n g m a d e t h i s a r g u m e n t a t t h e ti m e w h e n t h e
S A B C w a s p r o m o ti n g t h e G u p t a o w n e d N e w A g e n e w s p a p e r t h r o u g h i ts
N e w A g e b r e a k f a s t b r ie f in g s o n S A B C T V. I a ls o w a n t t o a d d t h a t w h e n
t h e y c a n c e ll e d t h e n e w s p a p e r, s h o r tly a f t e r th e a c t u a l n e w s p a p e r w a s
r e m o v e d c i ti n g a u s t e r it y m e a s u r e s , o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s t h e a c tu a l
10

n e w s p a p e r s w e u s u a ll y u s e e v e r y m o r n i n g w h e n w e ’r e – y o u k n o w
b e f o r e w e d o o u r d ia r i e s , t h o s e w e r e r e m o v e d b u t th e r e w e r e c o p io u s
a m o u n ts o f th e N e w A g e e v e r y w h e r e , te n c o p ie s p e r t a b le , y o u k n o w,
a l m o s t. L i k e t h e – i t w a s r e a l ly b i z a r r e b e c a u s e i f y o u ’r e g o i n g to c i te ,
y o u k n o w, s e l li n g n e w s p a p e r s t h e n t h a t n e w s p a p e r h a d n o b u s i n e s s o f
b e i n g t h e r e w i t h s o m a n y c o p ie s .
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d y o u o r p e o p l e in th e n e w s r o o m r a i s e th is t o s a y,

y o u h a v e j u s t s a i d , y o u k n o w, w e a r e n o t g o in g t o h a v e t h e s e
newspapers anymore for – as part of austerity measures, how come we
h a v e , y o u k n o w, s ta c k s a n d s t a c k s o f t h e N e w A g e ?
20

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

W e d i d n ’ t r a is e i t f o r m a l ly C h a ir, w e d id s p e a k

a b o u t i t a m o n g s t o u r s e l v e s , t h e p r o d u c e r s , th e s e n i o r p r o d u c e r s w e
e v e n b r o u g h t it t o t h e a t te n ti o n o f o u r l in e m a n a g e r s a n d a u s t e r i t y w a s
c i te d a s o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s f o r r e m o v i n g th e m a in n e w s p a p e r s , th e
o n e s t h a t w e w e r e u s e d to g e tt i n g e v e r y d a y a n d w h e n w e m a d e th e –
w e d i d n ’ t r e a ll y m a k e a f o r m a l a r g u m e n t , w e a ll j u s t , a m o n g s t

Page 46 of 230

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
o u r s e lv e s , y o u k n o w i n o u r … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

To s a y i s t h is a u s t e r it y m e a s u r e s i f y o u b r i n g i n

t h is o n e a n d n o t ju s t in b i g v o l u m e s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

A b s o l u te ly b u t w e a l s o k n e w w h ic h w e r e o u r

b a t t le s , i f h e w a s n ’ t g o i n g to r e s p o n d t o a f o r m a l l e t t e r th a t s e n io r
jo u r n a li s ts h a d w r i t t e n , w a s h e g o i n g t o a n s w e r a b o u t t h e N e w A g e
newspaper?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
Age
10

newspapers

being

a

M is s P il l a y y o u ta lk a b o u t t h e N e w
s ta c k

of

ten

per

ta b le

and

so

f o r th … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

W e ll th e m e e t i n g t a b l e – m e e ti n g t a b l e n o t p e r

d e s k , s o r r y.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Ye s w a s t h e d i s t r i b u t io n o f t h e N e w

A g e n e w s p a p e r s , w a s th is a d a i ly o c c u r r e n c e o f t h e s e n e w s p a p e r s
b e i n g b r o u g h t i n , w a s i t a n a s tr o n o m ic a l a m o u n t , w a s i t, y o u k n o w a
m a n a g e a b l e a m o u n t , y o u k n o w, t h a t i t’s n e n e w s p a p e r p e r e m p l o y e e ,
c a n y o u ju s t t a l k t o th a t ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

I c a n ’ t r e a l ly p u t m y f i n g e r o n th e n u m b e r C h a ir,

I w o u l d a r r iv e f o r m y s h i f t a n d th e r e ’ d p r o b a b ly b e a b o u t f iv e o r s i x o f
20

t h e n e w s p a p e r s s ta c k e d a r o u n d t h e m e e ti n g t a b l e , t h e r e w o u l d b e o n e
o r t w o a r o u n d o t h e r ta b le s , j a b u t u n fo r t u n a te ly C h a ir I’ m s o s o r r y b u t I
c a n ’ t p u t m y fi n g e r o n t h e e x a c t n u m b e r th a t w a s t h e r e o n a d a i ly b a s i s ,
I j u s t k n o w t h a t t h e r e w e r e m a n y c o p i e s o f t h e N e w A g e a v a il a b l e .
CHAIRPERSON:

B y t h e ti m e t h i s – b y t h e ti m e o f y o u r d is c i p l in a r y

a c ti o n a n d t h e r e m o v a l o f o t h e r n e w s p a p e r s d o y o u h a v e a r e c o l l e c ti o n

Page 47 of 230

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
of – about how long the New Age had been around in terms of being
m a d e a v a il a b l e a t S A B C b e in g d e liv e r e d i n b i g n u m b e r s ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r ?

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :
CHAIRPERSON:

No.

But it had been there for some time?

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :
CHAIRPERSON:

I h o n e s tl y c a n ’ t r e c a l l C h a ir.

Ye s a s fa r a s m y m e m o r y – y e a h .

O k a y.

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
10

T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir I’ v e n o te d

t h a t it ’s q u a r te r p a s t e l e v e n I d o n ’ t k n o w i f th e C h a ir w o u ld li k e t o t a k e
the

tea

break

now

before

we

carry

on

w i th

further

with

th e

e d i to r i a l … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

H o w m u c h m o r e ti m e d o y o u t h in k w e n e e d b e fo r e

s h e ’s d o n e ?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

I t h i n k w e w o u ld t a k e a b o u t , m y

e s ti m a t i o n , 4 5 m i n u t e s a t m o s t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y n o t h a t’s – I w a s lo o k i n g a t h e r s t a te m e n t

a n d I w a s th i n k i n g i t ’s le s s t h a n t h a t b u t t h a t ’s f in e , I th in k l e t ’s ta k e
t h e te a b r e a k , I th i n k y o u r w a tc h a n d m y w a tc h a r e n o t g i v i n g u s t h e
20

e x a c t t i m e , m i n e i s s t il l a f e w m i n u t e s b e f o r e q u a r t e r p a s t b u t it ’s o k a y
t h e r e ’s n o p o i n t i n s ta r t i n g a n o t h e r q u e s ti o n n o w.
W e w il l t a k e t h e t e a a d jo u r n m e n t n o w a n d w e ’ ll r e s u m e a t h a l f
p a s t e le v e n , w e a d j o u r n .
REGISTRAR:

A ll r is e .

INQUIRY ADJOURNS

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s le t u s p r o c e e d .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir j u s t d u r i n g t h e
t e a a d j o u r n m e n t I h a d a s k e d t h e – o u r t e a m ’s i n v e s t ig a to r s j u s t t o
a c q u ir e t h a t m e d i a r e l e a s e b y S A B C . T h e y o n i t a n d a s s o o n a s w e g e t
it w e w il l t h e n s u b m i t i t .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

M s P il la y o n

p a r a g r a p h 1 9 t h a t is o n p a g e 6 C h a ir o n y o u r m a i n s t a te m e n t y o u t a l k
10

t o y o u r e d it o r ia l w o e s t h a t h a d b e g u n .

Yo u e m p h a s is e o n t h e d a y

b e f o r e t h e S t a t e o f t h e N a t io n A d d r e s s t h a t w a s t o b e g i v e n b y th e
President.

C a n y o u ju s t e la b o r a t e o n a n y e d i to r i a l i n t e r fe r e n c e th a t

y o u g u y s e n d u r e d i n t h a t p e r io d ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : C h a ir – C h a ir – I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . C h a i r o n t h e
– in F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 a s i s tr a d i t io n f o r th e P r e s i d e n t t o d o a S t a te o f t h e
N a t io n A d d r e s s a n d p a r t o f o u r p u b l ic s e r v ic e m a n d a t e o u r te a m s fl y
d o w n to C a p e To w n to g i v e a l m o s t w a l l to w a ll c o v e r a g e . S o i t w o u l d
b e a p r e v i e w t o t h e S t a te o f th e N a t i o n A d d r e s s a n d a p o s t a n a l y s i s a n d
r e s p o n s e a n d r e a c t io n to t h e Pr e s id e n t’s a d d r e s s .
20

A n d w e d o t h is

e v e r y y e a r a n d i t is o n e o f t h e t h i n g s th a t is a m a i n a t tr a c t o r t o o u r
s t a ti o n b e c a u s e I w o u l d li k e to s a y w e d o i t s o w e l l .
20…
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n o w S A F M ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th is is S A F M y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s O k a y.

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B u t i n Fe b r u a r y

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I n F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 s o th e p r o d u c ti o n t e a m s t h e y
w o u ld p l a n a h e a d . T h e y w o u l d o r g a n is e w h o w e c a l l p o l it ic a l a n a l y s ts ,
e c o n o m ic a n a l y s ts , s o c i a l y o u k n o w a n y o n e w h o is a b le to g iv e s o m e
k in d o f p o s t S O N A a n a l y s i s .

A n d w e h a d a n a n a l y s t li n e d u p .

We

u s u a ll y f in d t h e m i n th e p r o v i n c e s w h e r e w e h a v e t o tr a v e l in o r d e r t o
a ls o k e e p th e c o s t s d o w n . A n d w e w e r e t o l d t h e r e w i ll b e n o a n a ly s i s
o f Pr e s id e n t Z u m a ’s a d d r e s s . O b v i o u s l y t h a t c o m i n g fr o m t h e t o p a n d I
h a d t o m a k e t h e u n fo r t u n a t e c a ll .

M y t e a m w e r e to o e m b a r r a s s e d to

c a l l th e a n a l y s t b e c a u s e t h e y fe l t t h a t t h e y h a d n o t t a k e n t h a t d e c is i o n
10

a n d t h e y s h o u l d n o t b e th e o n e t o h a v e to c a ll a n d c a n c e l th e a n a ly s t.
S o I c a l le d a n d c a n c e l le d w i th th e a n a ly s t 2 4 h o u r s b e f o r e t h e S t a t e o f
the Nation Address. And that was…
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u w o u l d h a v e m a d e a r r a n g e m e n ts w i t h t h a t

jo u r n a li s t a b o u t h o w l o n g b e f o r e t h e a c t u a l d a t e o f th e S t a t e o f th e
N a t io n A d d r e s s ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Yo u m e a n a n a ly s t ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e a n a ly s t t h a t y o u h a d to c a n c e l . Yo u w o u l d h a v e
m a d e a r r a n g e m e n t s a b o u t h o w l o n g b e f o r e t h e S t a te o f t h e N a ti o n
Address day?
20

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : A c o u p l e o f w e e k s b e fo r e b e c a u s e w e d o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o lo n g b e f o r e ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : L o n g b e f o r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

We –and we also because you know we know

s o m e o f t h e a n a ly s t s w h o a r e w e ll r e a d w h o – s o w e tr y a n d b o o k t h e m

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
in a d v a n c e a s p o s s i b l e s o th a t o t h e r b r o a d c a s te r s m a y n o t h a v e n o t
fir s t d ib s – d i b s o n t h e m .
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh you – you want to – you book them before your

c o m p e ti t o r s b o o k t h e m ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : A b s o lu t e l y. A b s o lu t e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : A n d s o th is i s h o w th e t e a m w o r k s , th is i s h o w
the senior producer in charge of that broadcast would have worked.
T h e y w o u ld h a v e b o o k e d a n d t h e y b a s ic a l ly t o l d m e w e ll i f y o u w a n t
10

t h e m c a n c e ll e d y o u a r e g o i n g t o h a v e t o c a n c e l i t b e c a u s e I a m n o t –
w e h a v e b o o k e d t h e m a n d s o I w a s t h e u n f o r t u n a te – h a d t h e
unfortunate task.

A n d I h a d t o v e r y d i p l o m a t ic a ll y c a l l a n d s a y

u n f o r t u n a t e ly w e w il l n o l o n g e r b e r e q u ir i n g y o u r s e r v i c e s . T h a t – t h a t
s p e e c h w e n t o n w i t h o u t p o l it ic a l a n a l y s i s .

T h e r e w a s o n ly p o l i tic a l

p a r t y r e s p o n s e to t h e s p e e c h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t y o u s a y t h e i n s tr u c ti o n c a m e fr o m th e t o p a n d
I s e e i n p a r a g r a p h 2 0 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t t h a t y o u s a y i t w a s a n e m a il .
W h o d id t h e e m a il c o m e fr o m ?
MS
20

K R I VA N I

P I L L AY :

So

t h is

is

another

c o r r e c ti o n

in

s u p p l e m e n t a r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O h o k a y.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I t w a s a v e r b a l i n s tr u c ti o n a n d n o t a n e m a i l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 51 of 230

my

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I – I w a s j u s t tr y i n g t o r e c a ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : A n d e v e n w h e n I c o n s u l te d w i th my c o l l e a g u e s
t h e y w e r e l ik e e m a il n o t h i n g w a s d o n e o n e m a i l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : A n d th e n I – t h e y r e m i n d e d m e i t w a s a v e r b a l
in s t r u c t i o n a n d t h a t is w h e n I v e r y q u ic k ly c a ll e d t h e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r s
t o t e l l th e m m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W h o g a v e t h e v e r b a l i n s t r u c t i o n ?
10

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I t h in k a t t h a t ti m e it w a s t h e a c ti n g G E o f n e w s
S i m o n Te b e l e .

H e w o u l d h a v e g iv e n t h e i n s tr u c ti o n th e n s o M r

M o ts o e n e n g w o u ld h a v e g iv e n th e i n s tr u c ti o n to h i m a n d h e w o u l d h a v e
g iv e n t h e i n s t r u c t i o n to th e G M o f R a d i o a n d y o u k n o w f il t e r e d d o w n .
Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h y o u h e a r d i t fr o m y o u r – d o y o u c a ll t h e m

supervisor or manager?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b u t i t d id n o t n e c e s s a r ily c o m e fr o m …
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I w a s n o t c a l le d d ir e c tl y.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u w e r e n o t c a l le d d ir e c tly ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : N o , n o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h e a r d i t w h e n i t h a d b e e n g iv e n ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t . B u t i n t e r m s o f w h o e x a c tly it e m a n a t e d
fr o m d i d y o u g e t t o k n o w t h a t o r w a s i t j u s t s p e c u l a ti o n ?

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M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : T h e s p e a k a t t h e t i m e w a s i t is f r o m t h e to p t h a t
is h o w w e w e r e u s e d t o .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s . W a s t h e r e a g e n e r a l u n d e r s ta n d i n g w h o t h e
top referred to?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w a s i t?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : M r H l a u d i M o ts o e n e n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
10

M s Pi ll a y y o u t a lk a b o u t b o o k i n g t h e

p o li t ic a l a n a ly s t w e e k s b e f o r e w a s t h is a s e r v ic e t h a t w a s p a id f o r b y
t h e S A B C t o b o o k t h a t a n a ly s t ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : N o w e s e ld o m – s o r r y C h a ir. W e s e l d o m p a y f o r
s e r v ic e s .

W e u s u a ll y o n ly b o o k a n d p a y d u r in g a n e l e c ti o n p e r i o d

b e c a u s e o v e r t h a t p e r io d y o u k n o w w e n e e d t h e m – it is w a ll t o w a ll
c o v e r a g e a n d w e n e e d t h e m y o u k n o w to b e w i t h u s f o r 2 4 h o u r
b r o a d c a s t in g . B u t w e d o n o t n e c e s s a r i ly p a y fo r a n a ly s t s . W e – i t i s
d o n e o u t o f g o o d w il l. W e l o o k f o r r e s e a r c h e r s , w e l o o k f o r e x p e r t s a n d
w e i n v i t e th e m t o b e p a r tic i p a n ts i n a p r o g r a m . S o th e y w o u l d j o i n u s .
T h e y w o u l d b e p a r t o f y o u k n o w th e i r a c c r e d i t a t i o n w e a s s i s t w i t h t h e
20

a c c r e d i t a ti o n e t c e t e r a .

B u t w e a r e n o t k n o w n f o r p a y i n g fo r s u c h

s e r v ic e s a n d i f a n a n a ly s t r e q u e s t p a y m e n t t h e n u n f o r t u n a t e l y w e w o u l d
h a v e t o le t t h e m g o b e c a u s e w e a r e n o t – w e d o n o t d o th a t . G e n e r a l ly
a l l – m o s t b r o a d c a s te r s a n d p u b l ic a ti o n s u s u a l ly p a y f o r a n a ly s is ts
m o s t ly o v e r a n e l e c ti o n p e r io d w h e n y o u e x c l u s iv e u s e o f a n a ly s t s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. L e t m e ju s t g o b a c k t o t h is i n s tr u c ti o n th a t

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
t h e r e w o u ld b e n o a n a ly s is o f t h e S t a t e o f t h e N a ti o n A d d r e s s .

Were

y o u e v e r t o l d w h y th a t – w h a t t h e b a s is w a s f o r th a t i n s tr u c t io n ? I t ju s t
s e e m s q u i t e s tr a n g e to m e .

W e ll i t m ig h t b e a b a d t h in g b u t I c a n

u n d e r s t a n d a n in s tr u c ti o n t h a t s a y s , m a k e s u r e y o u g e t a n a l y s ts w h o
w i ll s p e a k f a v o u r a b l y.

Because then you know that the person who

g iv e s t h a t i n s tr u c ti o n d o e s n o t w a n t p e o p l e w h o w il l c r i tic is e th e S t a t e
o f th e N a ti o n A d d r e s s . B u t t h e i n s tr u c t io n s e e m s to e x c l u d e e v e n t h o s e
w h o m a y h a v e s p o k e n w e ll a b o u t t h e N a ti o n A d d r e s s – S t a t e o f th e
N a t io n A d d r e s s .
10

I w o n d e r w h e t h e r w h o e v e r g a v e t h e in s t r u c t i o n h a d

s e e n th e S t a te o f th e N a ti o n A d d r e s s a n d h a d t a k e n a c e r ta i n v i e w o f i t
t h a t m a y b e l o ts o f a n a l y s ts w o u ld b e v e r y c r i t ic a l o f i t .

D id y o u e v e r

g e t to u n d e r s t a n d w h a t t h e b a s is w a s a n d d i d y o u g e t a n y i n f o r m a ti o n
in r e g a r d t o w h y t h is in s t r u c ti o n w a s g iv e n ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

C h a i r I a l m o s t a d m ir e y o u r o p t i m is m t h a t th e r e

w o u ld b e r e a s o n s a ff o r d e d t o u s f o r a n y d e c i s i o n .

U n fo r t u n a t e ly w e

w e r e w o r k in g i n a n e n v ir o n m e n t w h e r e i t w a s j u s t i s s u e d , o r d e r s w e r e
ju s t i s s u e d w i th o u t j u s ti fi c a t io n o r r e a s o n . I w o u ld a ls o ta k e i t th a t y e s
if y o u w a n te d to p r o m o te t h e P r e s i d e n t y o u c o u l d s a y h e r e is a lis t o f
m a y b e a n a ly s t s th a t y o u c o u l d u s e . B u t I t h i n k g iv e n t h e c ir c u m s ta n c e s
20

o f t h e ti m e , o f th e m a n n e r i n w h ic h th e l e a d e r o f t h e ti m e w a s b e i n g
la m b a s t e d a c r o s s t h e m e d i a , a c r o s s h e p u b li c I c a n o n l y i m a g i n e t h a t
t h e r e a s o n w o u l d b e to a v o id a t a l l c i r c u m s t a n c e s c r i ti c is m a g a i n s t t h e
le a d e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Or maybe – maybe it was seen as better to simply say
t h e r e w o u l d b e n o a n a l y s i s b e c a u s e i f y o u s a i d o n ly t h e fo ll o w i n g

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a n a ly s t th e n i t b e c o m e s m o r e b la t a n t .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : A b s o lu t e l y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u Ms P i ll a y. A p o l o g ie s ju s t to
b a c k tr a c k a li t t le b i t . I th i n k I m i g h t – I h a v e l e f t t h is o u t a n d i t i s v e r y
c r i ti c a l b e c a u s e M r M a t t h e w s h a s r e s p o n d e d t o p a r a g r a p h s p a r tic u la r ly
p a r a g r a p h s 1 4 o f y o u r m a i n s t a te m e n t o n p a g e 4 . In t h e m e e t in g w h e r e
y o u a n d M r K r i g e w e r e s u m m o n e d t o M r M o ts o e n e n g ’s o ff ic e w h e r e M r
M a t t h e w s h a d s t a t e d t h a t i f i t is c o ld o u ts i d e i f y o u d o n o t l ik e t h is y o u
10

c a n g o . Yo u h a v e t w o c h o i c e s t h e d o o r o r t h e w i n d o w.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Can you elaborate what was the

r e s p o n s e t o t h i s ? Yo u s a id y o u w e r e p a r t ic u l a r l y s u r p r i s e d w h y is t h a t
so?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

I w a s p a r t ic u l a r ly s u r p r is e d b e c a u s e e v e n

t h o u g h C h a ir M r M a t t h e w s a n d I d i d n o t h a v e a c l o s e w o r k i n g
r e l a ti o n s h i p I k n e w o f h i m a n d h e w a s s o m e o n e t h a t a s a y o u n g
jo u r n a li s t I h a d a d m i r e d a n d a l m o s t – y o u k n o w y o u – a s y o u g r o w u p i n
t h e r a n k s o f jo u r n a l is m y o u k i n d o f s p o t t h e jo u r n a l is t y o u w a n t t o b e
20

a n d y o u s p o t th e m in t h e v e t e r a n s . A n d M r M a t t h e w s w a s o n e o f th o s e
people …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h a p p e n s w i t h l a w s tu d e n t s a n d l a w y e r s t o o .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

Yo u k n o w i n t h e t e le v is i o n i n d u s tr y th a t y o u

k n o w – I k n o w th a t h e a l s o h a d a n e y e fo r p ic t u r e s a n d s t o r y t e l li n g a n d
I w a s a w a r e o f y o u k n o w h is c a r e e r. S o w h e n s o m e b o d y li k e t h a t a n d

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y o u k n o w y o u h a v e a d m ir e d a s a s t u d e n t s a y s s o m e t h in g l ik e t h a t
in s t e a d o f d e f e n d i n g y o u a t a m e e t in g i t is c o n f u s in g a n d i t is w o r r y i n g
a n d t h e n y o u s ta r t t o w o n d e r w e l l w h a t is in i t fo r y o u ? W h y – I m e a n
y o u h a v e b e e n s u c h a g o o d j o u r n a lis t f o r s o l o n g a n d t h e n w h y d o e s th e
t u n e c h a n g e . Yo u k n o w. A n d I a l m o s t e x p e c t e d a f t e r w a r d s t o g e t a c a l l
fr o m M r M a tt h e w s to s a y p e r h a p s I w a s u n d e r d u r e s s a n d y o u k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON: Kind of explain.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : E x p l a i n h i m s e l f b u t I n e v e r h e a r d fr o m h i m .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s .

Yo u – m a y b e y o u w i ll d e a l w it h t h i s .

Yo u w ill

r e m e m b e r M r P i ll a y t h a t e a r li e r o n I a s k e d y o u w h e t h e r y o u g o t t o k n o w
w h e t h e r h is r e s ig n a ti o n w a s c o n n e c t e d i n a n y w a y w it h t h e le t t e r th a t
s o m e o f y o u h a d w r i t te n .

I t h i n k i n h is r e s p o n s e to Mr K r i g e ’s

s t a te m e n t M r J i m i M a t t h e w s in h i s r e s p o n s e to M r Kr i g e ’s s t a t e m e n t I
t h i n k I r e a d s o m e t h in g a lo n g t h e l in e s th a t h e s a i d t h e r e w e r e c e r ta i n
things that he had done of which he was not proud.
i m p r e s s io n

th a t

he

was

saying

h is

resignation

may

I g o t th e
have

been

c o n n e c t e d w i t h h i m c o m i n g t o t h e c o n c l u s io n t h a t h e h a d d o n e c e r ta in
things that he should not have done that were wrong and that people
m i g h t n o t h a v e e x p e c te d f r o m h i m .
20

T h a t is t h e i m p r e s s i o n I g o t .

It

m i g h t b e a w r o n g i m p r e s s i o n t h a t I g o t a n d t h a t is p a r t o f t h e r e a s o n
w h y I w a s a s k i n g w h e t h e r y o u k n e w w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s a c o n n e c ti o n
b e c a u s e y o u r le t t e r r a i s e d c e r t a i n is s u e s w h ic h m a y o r m a y n o t h a v e
m a d e h i m to r e f le c t . J a o k a y t h a n k y o u .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. M s P il la y w h e n th is
in s t r u c t i o n w a s g iv e n n o t t o h a v e a n y p o l it ic a l a n a ly s t a n d s o f o r t h i n

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p a r a g r a p h 2 1 y o u s ta t e th a t y o u p r o t e s t e d t h i s in s tr u c ti o n t o t h e
g e n e r a l m a n a g e r o f r a d io n e w s .

W h o e x a c tl y w a s a t t h e t i m e t h e

general manager of radio news?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I t w a s S e b o le lo D i t l h a k a y a n e .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: And what was her response?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I r e m e m b e r g o i n g t o h e r o ffi c e a n d I h a d b r o u g h t
t h is t o h e r a tt e n ti o n a n d s h e s a i d s h e t r i e d t o e x p l a i n i t to M r
M o ts o e n e n g – s o r r y C h a ir – w h y i t w o u l d n o t w o r k . W h y t h is in s t r u c t i o n
w o u ld n o t w o r k a n d b a s i c a lly h e h a d n o t – h e to l d h e r th a t s h e h a d n o
10

o p t io n a n d w e h a d n o o p ti o n .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

M s P il l a y w h a t w o u l d h a v e h a p p e n e d

h y p o t h e t ic a l ly i f y o u h a d y o u k n o w s a i d n o I a m g o in g t o h a v e t h o s e
p o li t ic a l a n a ly s t s a n d s o f o r th . W h a t d o y o u th i n k t h e c o n s e q u e n c e s
w o u ld h a v e b e e n h a d y o u n o t f o ll o w e d th e in s t r u c t i o n ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

C h a ir I t h i n k I w o u ld h a v e b e e n f ir e d m u c h

e a r l ie r t h a n I w a s .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : L e t u s g o t t o t h e s e c o n d o c c a s io n w h e n
t h is h a p p e n e d t h a t y o u h a v e h i g h li g h te d in p a r a g r a p h 2 2 o f y o u r
s t a te m e n t – y o u r m a i n s ta t e m e n t.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. T h i s t h i n g o f p r o h i b i t in g a n a l y s i s is q u i t e
s tr a n g e .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : i t is v e r y s tr a n g e .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e a n a ly s is m e a n s y o u lo o k a t a ll a n g le s o f a

s t o r y a n d y o u a s k w h y th is , w h y n o t t h a t , w h y t h a t a n d y o u c o m m e n t
w h e r e y o u k n o w s o m e b o d y h a s d o n e w e l l a n d – a n d y o u c r i tic is e w h e r e

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t h e y h a v e n o t d o n e w e l l. I t is m e a n t to b e a n a n a ly s is a n d a n a n a l y s is
m u s t b e t o t h e b e n e fi t o f e v e r y b o d y b e c a u s e e v e r y b o d y is s u p p o s e d t o
w a n t to b e e x p o s e d t o a ll a n g l e s a n d p e r s p e c ti v e s t o a s to r y.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Yo u h i t t h e n a il o n t h e h e a d C h a ir t h a t is e x a c t ly
w h a t a n a l y s i s is a b o u t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : M s P i ll a y j u s t to p i c k u p o n t h a t . W h a t
d o y o u t h i n k t h e in t e n ti o n w a s t o p r o h i b it t h is a n a ly s is ?

What do you

t h i n k th e p r i m a r y g o a l w a s ?
10

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : N o t t h a t i t w a s p r e c is e l y c o m m u n i c a t e d a s s u c h
b u t f o r s o m e b o d y w h o h a s b e e n i n th e i n d u s tr y lo n g e n o u g h a n d to u s e
m y p o w e r s o f a s s e r ti o n a n d d e d u c ti o n t h a t t h e r e w a s a v i e w n o t t o
c r i ti c is e P r e s i d e n t J a c o b Z u m a . N o t t o p a i n t h i m i n a p o o r l ig h t . N o t t o
p a i n t h is le a d e r s h i p in a p o o r li g h t . N o t t o s h o w t h a t s e r v ic e d e l iv e r y
f a il u r e s a t th e h a n d s o f g o v e r n m e n t o r t h e g o v e r n i n g p a r ty in w e e k s
b e f o r e a n e l e c ti o n a n d f o r m e t h a t is th e o n ly d e d u c t io n .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

T h a n k y o u M s P il l a y.

Yo u a ls o s ta t e

t h a t t h a t w a s n o t th e f ir s t o c c a s i o n w h e r e a s y o u w e r e p r o h i b i t e d to
in c l u d e p o li t ic a l a n a l y s is . Yo u h a v e h i g h li g h t e d t h a t i n p a r a g r a p h 2 2 .
20

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : C a n y o u j u s t t a lk t o t h a t?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

O n t h e 2 3 r d A u g u s t P a r li a m e n t ’s P o r t fo li o

C o m m i t t e e C h a ir t h e y m e t th e S A B C b o a r d . I t w a s t e l e v is e d l iv e . T h e
b o a r d – b y t h is t i m e t h e r e w a s a l o t o f u p h e a v a l a b o u t w h a t w a s g o i n g
o n a t th e S A B C b e c a u s e w e h a d o b v io u s l y p u b li c ly r e b u k e d t h e s e

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d e c is i o n s .

A n d t h e b o a r d a n d s o m e o f t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e e x e c u ti v e

c a l l e d u s d is g r u n t le d j o u r n a lis t s .

T h e y w e n t a s f a r a s c a ll i n g u s l ia r s

a n d w e w e r e t o ld t h e r e w o u ld b e n o a n a l y s is o f t h a t a p p e a r a n c e b e fo r e
the …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e P o r t f o li o C o m m i t t e e .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t a k e i t t h a t d a te 2 3 r d A u g u s t is 2 3 r d A u g u s t 2 0 1 6 ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. B u t s o th is in s t r u c ti o n w a s n o w c o m i n g fr o m …
10

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : A g a i n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Fr o m – i t w a s c o m i n g f r o m th e e x e c u t iv e s ?

Well I

g u e s s a ll o f t h e m w e r e c o m i n g fr o m o n e o r o t h e r e x e c u t iv e ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y s o t h i s w a s a n o t h e r o c c a s io n ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : A n o t h e r o n e . Fr o m t h e t o p fi l te r e d d o w n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t n o w w e r e y o u t o l d th is ti m e a l s o w h y n o t ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

I o n c e a g a i n w e n t t o m y l in e m a n a g e r s C h a ir

and…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : O n e o f t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n s w e h a d w e w o u ld n o t
h a v e a n a ly s is b u t w h y d o w e n o t g e t c o m m u n i c a t io n s e x p e r t s o r
b r o a d c a s t e x p e r ts o r m e d ia e x p e r ts t o c o m e i n . I w a s tr y in g t o
c ir c u m v e n t t h i s is s u e , m o v e a r o u n d i t , fi n d a c o m m e n t a t o r, a n e x p e r t , a
r e s e a r c h e r, a n a c a d e m i c .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u w e r e tr y i n g t o m a k e t h e b e s t o f a d i ff ic u l t

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
s i tu a ti o n .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

Ye s . A n d i t w a s n o t w o r k i n g a n d – b u t I d o

r e m e m b e r a c o n v e r s a ti o n s a y i n g y e s w e c o u l d d o t h a t b u t n o t a p o li t ic a l
a n a ly s is o f it . W h i c h w a s a v e r y fi n e li n e y o u k n o w b e t w e e n t h e t w o .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

Hm.

Now at this stage August 2016 who were

t h e e x e c u ti v e s i n te r ms o f th e h i e r a r c h y t h a t w o u ld h a v e – t h a t y o u
w o u ld h a v e e x p e c t e d t o h a v e h a d s o m e t h i n g t o d o w i t h th is i n s tr u c t io n ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I t w o u l d h a v e b e e n – w e l l M r J a m e s A g u m a a n d
Mr
10

Hlaudi

M o ts o e n e n g

were

working

q u i te

c l o s e ly

to g e th e r

as

e x e c u tiv e s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w a s a n a c ti n g G C E O /
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h a t ti m e .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th a t i s c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

I t h i n k t h e a c ti n g G E w a s S i m o n Te b e le .

I am

ju s t tr y i n g t o r e c a ll I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e l l i f y o u d o n o t r e m e m b e r a l l o f th e m i t is f in e
I j u s t w a n t e d t o h a v e a n id e a s o th a t o n e d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r i ly t h i n k o f
20

s o m e b o d y w h o m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n t h e r e , w h o m i g h t h a v e le f t .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : O k a y s u r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u k n o w f o r e x a m p l e .

B u t t h i s w a s a ls o q u i t e – I

k n o w t h e p r o h i b i t io n o f t h e a n a ly s is i n r e g a r d t o th is m e e ti n g w a s q u i te
– w o u ld h a v e b e e n q u i t e s tr a n g e b e c a u s e o f th e jo b o f a P a r li a m e n t a r y
P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e .

T h e b o a r d a n d th e e x e c u tiv e s g o th e r e b e c a u s e

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t h e P o r tf o li o C o m m i t t e e e x e r c is e s o v e r s ig h t a n d t h e y n e e d t o g e t
a n s w e r s o n w h a t m a y b e h a p p e n i n g o n c e r t a i n t h i n g s w i th i n t h e S A B C
a n d t h e p u b l ic n e e d s t o k n o w a b o u t t h a t .

And there have been

p r o b le m s a t S A B C f o r m a n y y e a r s a n d t h e p u b l ic i s – is s u p p o s e d t o
k n o w a b o u t t h a t a n d t h e y a r e s u p p o s e d t o k n o w w h a t is P a r li a m e n t
d o i n g a b o u t i t b e c a u s e i t h a s a n o b l i g a t io n t o e x e r c is e o v e r s ig h t . B u t
t h a t i s b e i n g p r o h i b it e d .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

C h a i r i n m y o p i n i o n P a r li a m e n t’s P o r t fo li o

C o m m i t t e e o f C o m m u n i c a t io n s f a il e d i n t h e ir o v e r s i g h t r o l e . B e c a u s e i f
10

y o u g o b a c k a n d g e t t h e P a r l i a m e n t a r y t a p e s o f th e 2 3 r d A u g u s t e v e n
t h e li n in g – li n e o f q u e s ti o n i n g fr o m s o m e o f t h e M P ’s w a s n o t o f a n
o v e r s ig h t b o d y i t w a s a l m o s t o f f r i e n d s s p e a k i n g t o fr ie n d s .

Or one

team mate speaking to the same team mate. So the line of questioning
w a s n o t to f in d th e w h o le s t o r y a n d t h e w h o l e tr u t h a n d n o t h i n g b u t th e
tr u th a b o u t t h e g o i n g s o n a t t h e S A B C . S o I a ls o e n c o u r a g e d t h e
in v e s t i g a t o r s t o l o o k a t t h a t t a p e o f th e 2 3 r d A u g u s t a n d t o s e e t h e l in e
o f q u e s t i o n in g o f th a t o v e r s i g h t b o d y a n d t o s e e t h e k i n d o f r e s p o n s e s
t h a t th e e x e c u tiv e s g a v e t o P a r li a m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . W e l l t h a t m u s t b e d o n e a n d y o u – w e ll b e in g i n
20

t h e m e d i a y o u p r o b a b ly w o u ld k n o w t h a t I h a v e s a i d o n e o f t h e t h i n g s
t h a t th e c o m m i s s io n n e e d s to d o is t o s e e t o w h a t e x t e n t P a r l ia m e n t
e x e r c is e d it s o v e r s i g h t o b li g a t i o n s p r o p e r l y i n r e g a r d t o th e e x e c u t iv e s ,
in r e g a r d to v a r io u s g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts a n d S O E ’s . S o t h a t i f a t
t h e e n d o f th e w o r k o f t h e c o m m is s i o n I c o n c l u d e t h a t i n d e e d t h e r e w a s
S t a te C a p t u r e I c a n l o o k a t w h a t is i t t h a t P a r li a m e n t c o u ld h a v e d o n e ?

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D i d t h e y d o i t ? I f t h e y f a il e d w a s th e r e ju s t if ic a ti o n f o r t h e m f a i li n g to
d o w h a t t h e y c o u ld h a v e d o n e b e c a u s e o t h e r w is e it m a y w e ll b e t h a t
t h i n g s m ig h t h a v e b e e n a r r e s t e d b e f o r e t h e y g o t t o w h e r e th e y g o t t o .
A n d a ls o t h e q u e s t io n o f th e l e v e l s o f c o r r u p t i o n . O n e h a s g o t to a s k
has

P a r li a m e n t

and

i ts

various

P o r t f o l io

Committees

have

they

e x e r c is e d th e ir c o n s t it u ti o n a l o b l i g a t io n s t h e w a y t h e y s h o u ld ?

And

b e c a u s e i t m a y b e th a t i f t h e y h a v e n o t a n d i f t h e y h a d e x e r c is e d t h e ir
o b li g a ti o n s p r o p e r l y a l o t o f d a m a g e c o u l d h a v e b e e n a v o i d e d .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : C h a ir I w o u l d a l s o lik e t o p u t o n r e c o r d th a t t h e
10

S A B C 8 t h r o u g h o u r l e g a l t e a m As l a m M o o s a j e e a n d A d v o c a t e S t e v e n
B u d l e n d e r w r o t e t o B a l e k e M b e t e t h e s p e a k e r o f P a r li a m e n t t o p o i n t o u t
t h e s e k i n d o f i n e ff ic ie n c i e s a n d t h e f a i lu r e o f P a r l ia m e n t a s a n
o v e r s ig h t b o d y. A n d w e – w e fo r w a n t o f a b e t t e r w o r d p e s t e r e d t h e m
u n t il w e g o t w h a t w e g o t w h ic h e n d e d u p b e in g th e fir s t e v e r i n q u ir y
in t o t h e S A B C in P a r l i a m e n t . B u t i t to o k a w h i le b e f o r e w e c o u l d g e t
that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e ll p r o b a b ly i t w o u l d b e g o o d to e v e n g e t t h a t
k in d o f c o r r e s p o n d e n c e .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : S u r e .

20

CHAIRPERSON:

A n e x c h a n g e o f c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b e c a u s e y o u w o u ld

h a v e b e e n d o in g n o t h i n g m o r e t h a n s a y i n g P a r li a m e n t m u s t p e r f o r m i t s
jo b .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th a t i s p r e c is e l y w h a t w e w e r e d o in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d fr o m w h a t y o u s a y i t l o o k s li k e i t t o o k q u i t e s o m e
ti m e b e f o r e i t h a p p e n e d a n d m a y b e if y o u h a d n o t p e r s is t e d th e w a y I

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understand you did maybe it might not have happened. So – so that
p l u s a n y o t h e r i n fo r m a t i o n th a t y o u a t S A B C a n d o t h e r p e o p l e a t S A B C
m i g h t h a v e th a t w o u ld g iv e t h is c o m m i s s i o n a p ic tu r e o f h o w t h e
c o m m u n ic a ti o n s c o m m i t te e w a s e x e r c is i n g i ts o v e r s ig h t o v e r t h e y e a r s
if y o u h a v e g o t a n y i n fo r m a t i o n t h e n t h e c o m m i s s io n w o u l d r e a lly
w e lc o m e t h a t .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th a n k y o u C h a ir I w ill p a s s t h e m e s s a g e o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
ADV MPHO RASIVH ETSHELE:
10

Th a n k y o u M s P il la y.

On paragraphs

2 3 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t t h a t w o u ld s t il l b e o n p a g e 6 o f y o u r m a i n
s t a te m e n t y o u t a lk t o a p r e - e le c ti o n w o r k s h o p a n d w h a t w a s s a id a t t h a t
p r e - e l e c ti o n w o r k s h o p .

C a n y o u ju s t – M r Kr ig e h a s to u c h e d b a s e o n

w h a t th e e l e c ti o n – t h e p r e - e l e c ti o n w o r k s h o p i s a b o u t a n d s o fo r t h s o
y o u d o n o t h a v e t o g o i n t h a t d e ta il b u t h o w e v e r y o u t a lk t o o n t h e n e x t
p a r a g r a p h o n p a r a g r a p h 2 4 w h a t M r M o ts o e n e n g h a d s t a t e d i n t h a t
w o r k s h o p o n p a r a g r a p h 2 4 o n p a g e 7 . C a n y o u j u s t r e a d th a t o u t i n t o
t h e r e c o r d a n d c o m m e n t th e r e a f t e r ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

O k a y.

C h a ir a t t h e w o r k s h o p M r M o ts o e n e n g

m a d e t h e f o ll o w i n g d e e p l y c o n c e r n in g r e m a r k s .
20

“ D o n o t f o c u s o n n e g a t iv e s to r i e s .
R e p o r t e r s a t t h e S A B C d o n o t k n o w th e w o r ld .
W h e n t h e y r e p o r t th e y m is l e a d l is t e n e r s .
To d a y I a m g o i n g t o t a lk to t h e p r e s s c lu b , t o a ll
e d i to r s .

I a m g o i n g t o te ll t h e m t h e y c a n n o t tr y t o

in fl u e n c e S A B C .

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
I a m g o i n g t o t e l l th e m t h e y c a n n o t t e l l u s w h a t t o
do.
L o o k a t y o u r e d i t o r i a l p o l ic y.
W e h a v e r e m o v e d n e w s a n d r e p l a c e d w i th c o n te n t .
I f y o u a s S A B C m e s s u p th e o r g a n is a ti o n y o u m e s s
u p y o u r l i fe .
I am in charge.
N e w s is n o w p a r t o f o p e r a t i o n s .
W e c h a n g e th e w o r l d .
10

We must have news with content.
I a m i n c h a r g e , y o u m u s t a d h e r e to m y i n s t r u c t io n .
P r e s i d e n t Z u m a is t h e P r e s i d e n t o f t h e c o u n tr y.
I do not regard him as ANC.
Yo u c a n n o t tr e a t h i m t h e s a m e .
W e w i ll g i v e h i m m o r e t i m e .
Yo u c a n q u e s ti o n e v e r y o n e . ”
A n d h e r e fe r r e d to M r M a n ta s h e e t c e t e r a .
“ E x c e p t o u r Pr e s id e n t .
W e n e e d to r e s p e c t h i m e s p e c i a l ly y o u S A B C .

20

I e x p e c t y o u t o a l ig n w i t h m y in s t r u c t i o n . ”
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: And…
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

Probably my ignorance.

What does it

m e a n t o s a y w e h a v e r e m o v e d n e w s a n d r e p l a c e d i t w i th c o n te n t ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

S o i n t h e e d i to r i a l p o li c y C h a ir w h e n w e ta lk

a b o u t n e w s c o n t e n t c o u ld m e a n a n y t h i n g . C o n t e n t …

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
C H A I R P E R S O N : O t h e r th a n n e w s ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s . A b s o l u te ly.
CHAIRPERSON: Adverts?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : A b s o lu t e l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : C o n t e n t c o u ld b e a m u s ic v i d e o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : C o n t e n t c o u ld b e a k id s p r o g r a m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : N e w s h a s v e r y c l e a r p r e s c r i p ts o f w h a t i s a n e w s
it e m ?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : S o h e i s e ff e c ti v e ly r e m o v e d i t a n d m u d d ie d t h e
w a t e r s o f w h a t t h e n e w s p r e s c r ip t s a r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o – s o w h a t d id t h is m e a n ?

Look at your editorial

p o li c y w e h a v e r e m o v e d n e w s a n d r e p l a c e d it w i t h c o n t e n t .

What did

t h a t m e a n ? D i d h e r e m o v e a n y t h i n g in t h e p o l ic y r e l a t i n g t o n e w s ? O r
what did that mean?

I a m t r y in g t o u n d e r s t a n d i t.

F ir s t ly I d i d n o t

u n d e r s t a n d th e – t h e c o n te x t w h ic h y o u h a v e n o w e x p l a i n e d b u t w h a t
20

d i d i t a c tu a lly m e a n ? W h a t w a s t h e r e t h a t w a s r e m o v e d a n d w h e r e w a s
it r e m o v e d a n d w h a t d id i t s a y ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

T h e w a y I u n d e r s t a n d i t a n d I s ta n d t o b e

c o r r e c t e d p e r h a p s m y o th e r c o ll e a g u e s c o u l d g iv e y o u a b e t t e r
e x p l a n a t io n b u t t h a t n e w s c o n t e n t , n e w s i t e m s , n e w s p r o g r a m m i n g w a s
being watered down.

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , o k a y.

Okay but the watering down was taken

c a r e o f in t h e p o l ic y b e c a u s e h e s a y s l o o k a t t h e E d i t o r i a l P o li c y o r … ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

T h a t is w h e r e h e s w a p p e d .

So in the news

e d i to r i a l - in t h e - in t h e s e c t i o n o f n e w s …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I n th e E d i t o r ia l P o l i c y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : B e c a u s e w e h a v e m a n d a t e . W e h a v e l a n g u a g e .
W e h a v e s p o r t a n d e d u c a t io n e t c e t e r a i n t h e s e c ti o n o f n e w s . S o w h e r e
10

w e t a l k a b o u t n e w s v a lu e s o r - o r p r e s c r ip t s it w o u l d b e c o n t e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . I n t h e p o l ic y ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I n th e a c tu a l 2 0 1 6 c h a n g e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : P o l ic y ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, o k a y.

T h a n k y o u a n d t h e e ff e c t o f th a t w a s -

w a s w h a t a t a p r a c t ic a l l e v e l i n t h e n e w s r o o m ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

I t w o u l d m e a n th a t t h e r e w o u ld b e n o r o b u s t

p o li t ic a l …
CHAIRPERSON: Debates?
20

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : D e b a t e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u w o u ld ju s t r e p o r t ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Yo u w o u l d j u s t r e p o r t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Without having debates and so on and so …?

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M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Yo u w o u l d h a v e d e b a te s b u t t h e y w o u l d t h e n
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w a te r e d d o w n ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : B e w a te r e d d o w n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o a t a p r a c t ic a l l e v e l w o u l d y o u lik e h a v e t o
t e ll y o u r - y o u r g u e s t s i f t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o ta lk t o s a y w e l l d o n o t b e
t o o h a r s h o r a n y th i n g ?

How would it work or you would be careful in

h o w y o u c h o o s e th e m ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : C h a ir a t t h e r is k o f s o u n d in g i n s u b o r d in a t e …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I a c t u a ll y d id n o t lis t e n t o t h i s i n s tr u c ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I c o n ti n u e d a n d s o d i d m y c o ll e a g u e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

The

producers

and

senior

producers

and

a n c h o r s w e c o n t in u e d t o w o r k …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : A s j o u r n a lis t s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : M s P i ll a y o n t h e - m o r e o r l e s s th e la s t
p a r a g r a p h o f t h a t s ta t e m e n t. I t s a y s :
“I

am

in

in s t r u c t i o n s .

charge.

Yo u

must

adhere

to

my

P r e s i d e n t Z u m a i s t h e Pr e s id e n t o f

t h e c o u n tr y. I d o n o t r e g a r d h i m a s th e A N C . Yo u

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
c a n n o t tr e a t h i m t h e s a m e . W e w il l g iv e h i m m o r e
ti m e . ”
H o w d o y o u in t e r p r e t t h is ? M o r e ti m e w a s t h is m o r e c o v e r a g e
o f Pr e s id e n t Zu m a ?

Yo u k n o w. C a n y o u - c a n y o u t a lk t o t h is ?

How

w a s y o u r i n te r p r e t a ti o n o r t h e g e n e r a l in t e r p r e t a ti o n a m o n g s t y o u r
colleagues for the statement?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

S o C h a ir i n t h e c o n te x t o f t h is - t h is w a s a

p r e - e l e c ti o n w o r k s h o p . S o w h e n it c o m e s t o e le c ti o n c o v e r a g e th e r e is
s o m e t h i n g th a t - th a t w e u s e t h a t I C A S A p r e s c r i b e s a n d t h a t i s
10

e q u it a b l e c o v e r a g e .
coverage.

I t is n o t e q u a l c o v e r a g e b u t i t is e q u i t a b l e

I t is a fo r m u l a m o v e d b a s e d o n t h e n u m b e r o f s e a ts y o u

h a v e in P a r li a m e n t e t c e t e r a .
S o o b v i o u s ly t h e g o v e r n in g p a r ty w i ll h a v e a s l i g h t ly l o n g e r
c o v e r a g e t h a n t h e s a y t h e o ff ic ia l o p p o s i t i o n w h o w il l t h e n h a v e s li g h t ly
c o v e r a g e t o t h e s e c o n d o p p o s i t i o n p a r ty e tc e t e r a .

W h a t I u n d e r s ta n d

t h is to b e is t h a t y o u w i ll g iv e t h e Pr e s i d e n t m o r e t i m e .

Almost

d is r e g a r d i n g e q u i ta b le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . I n o t h e r w o r d s m o r e th a n w h a te v e r …
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : M o r e t h a n e q u i ta b l e .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Be prescribed by ICASA?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : E x a c tl y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, w h ic h - w h ic h w o u l d b e m o r e i n a n y e v e n t?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

A n d Ms P i ll a y h o w d i d y o u - w h a t w a s

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t h e r e a c t i o n ? Wa s t h e r e a n y k i n d o f d e s c e n ti n g v ie w s fr o m a n y o n e w h o
p u t u p t h e ir h a n d a n d s a i d w e ll y o u k n o w I d o n o t a g r e e w i t h th is ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I d o r e m e m b e r - I d o r e m e m b e r t h a t i m m e d i a t e ly
n o b o d y - p e o p l e w e r e lo o k i n g a r o u n d .

I t w a s a l m o s t th is u n e a s e

b e c a u s e s o m e o f u s c o u l d n o t b e li e v e w h a t w e w e r e l is te n in g t o . S o m e
o b v i o u s l y h e a r d i t a g a in a n d t h e y - li k e I s a i d th e y w e r e u s e d t o t h e
k in d o f u t te r a n c e s o f t h i s in d iv i d u a l . I t w a s m y f ir s t ti m e b a c k a f t e r a
few years as I mentioned.
So I was - I know I was bewildered when I saw - I did not
10

r a i s e m y h a n d . I d i d n o t s a y a n y t h i n g . W e h a d a d jo u r n e d fo r a l u n c h a t e a b r e a k o r a l u n c h b r e a k a n d I d o r e m e m b e r p e o p le n o t b e i n g v e r y
h a p p y b y th a t b u t t h e r e w a s n o k in d o f f o r m a l c a u c u s w h e r e w e t h e n
s t o p p e d h i m i n h is tr a c k s a n d - a n d a s k e d h i m q u e s ti o n s .
P e o p l e d i d p u t t h e ir h a n d s u p , a s k e d q u e s ti o n s a n d y o u k n o w
tr i e d y o u k n o w i n a - i n a w a y t o - t o v o ic e t h e ir d is c o n t e n t b u t t h is i s
t h e k i n d o f i n d iv i d u a l w h o c o m m a n d e d t h is r o o m i n t h is a l m o s t w a y t h a t
w h a t I s a y g o e s a n d e v e n i f s o m e b o d y a t t e m p te d to r a ti o n a li s e o r b e
r e a s o n a b l e w i th h i m t h e y w o u l d n o t w in . J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t th is m e e t i n g w a s t h e - w a s t h e A c t in g G C E O th e r e

20

o r th e h i g h e s t r a n k i n g e x e c u t iv e w a s M r M o ts o e n e n g ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

T h e Ac t in g G C E O w a s th e r e .

Mr James Aguma

w a s t h e r e b e c a u s e I r e m e m b e r a s k i n g a q u e s ti o n . I r e m e m b e r p u tt i n g
m y h a n d u p t o s a y t h a t o n e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t i r k s m e a s a n E x e c u t iv e
P r o d u c e r is w h e n r e p o r t e r s d o n o t h a v e t h e a d e q u a te r e s o u r c e s t o d o
t h e ir w o r k a n d c a n o n ly f il e s t o r i e s w h e n t h e y c o m e b a c k t o t h e o ffic e

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a n d w h y d o t h e y n o t h a v e th e 3 G d a t a c a r d s e t c e t e r a a n d I r e m e m b e r
M r J a m e s A g u m a w a s t h e r e b e c a u s e M r M o ts o e n e n g s a i d b u t w e h a v e
g o t t h e m o n e y a n d h e m u s t ju s t m a k e i t h a p p e n .

T h a t - j a th a t th e

reporters get the 3G cards …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : A n d th e y g e t t h e r e s o u r c e s t h a t t h e y n e e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : To g e t th e j o b d o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , o k a y.
10

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

M s P il la y I h a v e - I h a v e n o t e d th a t i n

p a r a g r a p h 2 4 w h a t w e h a v e ju s t r e a d w h a t M r M o ts o e n e n g h a d s ta t e d is
in q u o t e s . W a s t h is w o r d f o r w o r d t h a t w a s s a id b y M r M o ts o e n e n g ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

Ye s b e c a u s e i r o n i c a l ly I w a s t h e s c r i b e a t t h is

w o r k s h o p C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

There was - there was a few of us that were

asked to scribe …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :
20

A n d t h is - a n d t h i s w o r k s h o p w a s t h e r e c o r d e d

workshop.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s r e c o r d e d ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : A ( i n d is ti n c t) w a s p l a c e d in fr o n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : A n d e v e r y s in g le s e s s i o n w a s r e c o r d e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.

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M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : A n d w e h a d t u r n s t o ta k e n o t e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o - s o t h i s is n o t j u s t b a s e d o n y o u r n o t e s ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : N o th is i s b a s e d o n - o n m y n o t e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s m e c h a n ic a l ly r e c o r d e d a s w e ll ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

Ye s .

I d id n o t - I d i d n o t g e t my h a n d s o n t h e

recording.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : S o t h e s e a r e j u s t m y ty p e d n o t e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t …
10

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: But you say …
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th e r e …
CHAIRPERSON: There was a mechanical recording?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : A r e c o r d i n g e x is t s s o m e w h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. Al r i g h t .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : J a .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

I f w e c o u l d ju s t t u r n t o p a g e 1 0

A n n e x u r e 1 . M s P il l a y c a n y o u i d e n t i fy th a t d o c u m e n t i n fr o n t o f y o u ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th a t i s t h e mi n u te s o f t h e w o r k s h o p .
20

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: Dated?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : 6 J u n e .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: 6 June 2016?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: And if we turn to page 17 of that same
document.

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : I n t h e m i d d l e o f t h e d o c u m e n t t h e r e is
a h e a d i n g C O O H l a u d i M o ts o e n e n g .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

I s th is w h a t w a s t h e m in u t e s o f w h a t

t h e c o n te n t i n - i n w h ic h w h a t h e w a s s a y i n g ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th a t i s c o r r e c t.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Th e r e is j u s t a fe w b e c a u s e i t is - i t is
n o t n u m b e r e d . T h e r e is j u s t a fe w p a r t ic u l a r p a r a g r a p h s t h a t I w a n t y o u
10

t o g iv e c o m m e n t o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m - I a m s o r r y. D id y o u s a y p a g e 1 - 6 ?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : 1 - 7 C h a ir. S o r r y. 1 - 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h 1 - 7 . O k a y.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Th a t w o u ld b e u n d e r th e h e a d in g o f

C O O H l a u d i M o ts o e n e n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y e s , o k a y. Ye s .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Th e f ir s t t w o li n e s o f - o f t h a t d o c u m e n t
is s a i d :
“Concerned About News:
20

t h e r e is l a z i n e s s i n th e

n e w s r o o m . W h e n w e c o m p a r e b r o a d c a s te r s t h e r e i s
a h u g e d i ff e r e n c e b e tw e e n u s a n d t h e m . ”
Wa s t h i s a c o n tr ib u ti o n t o m a y b e th e l o w m o r a le b e t w e e n t h e
jo u r n a li s ts a n d s o f o r th ? Yo u k n o w h i m s t a ti n g th a t t h e j o u r n a li s t s t h e
n e w s r o o m i s l a z y a n d s o f o r th .

H o w d i d y o u g u y s r e a c t t o th a t

comment, if any?

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

C h a ir a t th is w o r k s h o p w o u l d h a v e o n l y b e e n

e d i to r s , s p e c ia li s ts , d e s k e d i to r s , a s s i g n m e n t e d i to r s , r e g i o n a l e d i t o r s .
S o b a s ic a l ly th e e d i t o r ia l l e a d e r s h i p o f t h e n e w s d iv is io n .

S o th e

jo u r n a li s ts t h e m s e l v e s w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n - t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n
m a y b e o n e o r t w o b u t t h e jo u r n a l is ts th e m s e lv e s w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n
at that workshop.
S o I d o n o t t h i n k h e w o u l d h a v e s a i d th is f a c e t o f a c e t o th e
jo u r n a li s ts .

H e s a id t h a t t o u s a s e d it o r s i n t h e h o p e s t h a t w e w o u ld

t a k e h is c o n c e r n s a b o u t th e s h o d d y c a m e r a w o r k . F o r e x a m p l e h e u s e d
10

- h e t a l k e d a b o u t i n c o n s is t e n c i e s in c a m e r a t e a ms , n e e d i n g to tr a i n
camera people.

H e s a i d th a t th e j o u r n a lis ts n e e d to b e p a s s i o n a t e .

T h e y n e e d t o g o b a c k to b a s i c s .
S o h e - h e s a i d a ll o f th is in t h e h o p e s t h a t w e w o u l d t a k e
t h is m e s s a g e b a c k to o u r t e a m s i n p r e p a r a ti o n f o r e l e c t io n s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

A n d M s P il l a y d i d y o u f e e l t h a t y o u

k n o w b e i n g t h e e d i to r t h a t th e j o u r n a lis t s - t h e n e w s r o o m w a s l a z y o r
s o fo r t h o r d o y o u t h i n k t h a t h i s c o m m e n t w a s m is d ir e c t e d ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

C h a ir I d o b e li e v e th a t s o m e o f h i s c o m m e n t s

a r e m i s d ir e c te d b e c a u s e t o m y r e c o ll e c t io n M r M o ts o e n e n g n e v e r c a m e
20

to the newsroom.

H e n e v e r - I d o n o t r e c a l l h i m m e e t in g j o u r n a lis ts ,

g e t t in g to k n o w t h e m , g e t ti n g t o k n o w t h e ir w o r k .

J o u r n a l is ts w o r k

u n d e r - o f t e n lo n g u n s o c i a b le h o u r s f il i n g a n d y o u r e a ll y h a v e g o t to
u n d e r s t a n d t h e n a t u r e o f t h e w o r k t h a t w e d o a n d h e t o m y r e c o ll e c t io n
n e v e r d id t h a t .
S o th is w a s t h e fir s t ti m e t h a t I - I h a d h is o p in io n o f th e

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
q u a li ty o f n e w s b e i n g d i s s e m in a t e d b u t I a m n o t i n c h a r g e o f th e i n p u t
t e a m w h ic h is t h e j o u r n a l is ts . M y t e a m - I c o m a n a g e d a t e a m o f o u t p u t
p r o d u c e r s , s e n i o r p r o d u c e r s a n d a n c h o r s w h e r e t h e y w o u ld t h e n u s e
t h e s t o r i e s o f t h e i n p u t jo u r n a l is ts in - i n o u r p r o g r a m s . S o I w a s n o t - I
a m n o t i n a p o s i ti o n to a s s e s s w h e t h e r h i s c o m m e n t s h a d a n y
v a l i d a t io n .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A n d j u s t t o g o t o t h e b o tt o m o f t h e la s t
p a r a g r a p h o n t h a t p a g e t h e r e a r e s o m e t y p o e r r o r s a n d s o f o r th s o I a m
ju s t g o i n g to r e a d i t a s - a s w e l l a s I c o u ld o r M s P il la y c a n y o u r e a d
10

that last paragraph …
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : S u r e .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : S t a r ti n g w i t h j o u r n a l is ts ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :
o r g a n i s a t io n

“J o u r n a lis t s
is

who

not independent.

belong
In

to
th e

an
new

E d it o r ia l P o li c y it is c l e a r t h a t t h e o r g a n is a t io n is
in d e p e n d e n t n o t th e i n d iv id u a l .

W h e n w e is s u e a n

in s t r u c t i o n i t i s a n i n s tr u c t io n .

W e a r e n o t a s k in g

you.

SABC has a clear

N o o n e is i n d e p e n d e n t.

agenda.
20

media.

T h e w a y w e r e p o r t i s u n i q u e fr o m o t h e r
I f y o u a r e n o t i n l i n e t h e d o o r is o p e n .

R e v a m p i n g t h e S A B C i s n o t a b o u t j u s t c o n t e n t . I t is
a ls o p e r s o n n e l .

Need people who support the

agenda of the SABC.”
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : M s P i ll a y s o t h a t l a s t l in e :
“Revamping the SABC is not just about content. It

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
is a ls o a b o u t p e r s o n n e l . ”
H o w w o u ld y o u in t e r p r e t t h a t ?
k n o w a ls o r e v a m p i n g o u r p e r s o n n e l ?

W o u ld r e v a m p in g m e a n y o u
Ta k i n g p e r s o n n e l o u t o r h o w

w o u ld y o u i n te r p r e t th a t ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I w o u l d - I w o u l d u n d e r s ta n d i f y o u c a n n o t d o th e
jo b o r - o r if y o u c a n n o t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o m p ly w i t h t h e i n s tr u c ti o n ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : E x a c tl y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th e n - th e n o u t y o u g o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . D id y o u u n d e r s t a n d o r d o y o u u n d e r s ta n d h o w i t
is p o s s i b l e t o s p e a k o f t h e S A B C b e in g i n d e p e n d e n t b u t t h e j o u r n a li s ts
- t h e in d i v i d u a ls n o t b e i n g in d e p e n d e n t?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th a t i s a d i ff ic u l t o n e C h a ir …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : B e c a u s e h e - I t h i n k h e v i e w e d t h e S A B C a s a n
e n t i ty o n i t s o w n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : A n d h i m b e i n g a t th e h e l m …

20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : O f t h a t e n t i ty …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : A n d w h a t e v e r h e s a w t h a t o r g a n is a ti o n t o b e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Is w h a t u s a s j o u r n a l is ts a n d s ta ff m e m b e r s h a d

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
t o b e i n l in e w i t h .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : S o t h e r e - t h e r e i n s tr i p s t h e i n d e p e n d e n c e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : B u t t o b e i n l in e w i t h h is v is i o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : O f le a d e r s h i p …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : F o r t h is s o c a ll e d …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I n d e p e n d e n t in s ti t u t io n .
CHAIRPERSON:

So

e ff e c t iv e ly

he

would

determine

where

the

in d e p e n d e n c e s ta r t s a n d w h e r e i t - i t w o u l d e n d ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th a t i s h o w I u n d e r s t a n d it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e jo u r n a l is ts h a d t o s i m p ly t h a t w h a t e v e r h e d i d
h e t o o k i n to a c c o u n t in d e p e n d e n c e a n d th e ir s m u s t j u s t b e t o c o m p l y ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : C o m p ly. Th a t i s i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : O k a y.
20

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : S o r r y. C h a i r f o r th e r e c o r d I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I - I d o - I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r i f I - i f I s a i d a t t h is
m e e ti n g t h a t J a m e s A g u m a h e w a s t h e r e a s C F O …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : N o t a s C E O .

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

Because I remember the conversation being

a b o u t w e h a v e m o n e y fo r t h e s e r e s o u r c e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Yo u k n o w th e - t h e - to d o o u r w o r k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : J a , s o i t w a s …
CHAIRPERSON: So he was the finance person?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s . I w o u l d l ik e t o m a k e th a t c o r r e c ti o n p l e a s e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

A n d i f w e tu r n o v e r to p a g e 1 8 s ti ll o n

t h e m i n u te s p a r a g r a p h - th e f o u r th p a r a g r a p h s ta r t in g w it h “ c h a n g e d ” .
C a n y o u j u s t r e a d th a t i n to t h e r e c o r d ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

“ C h a n g e d S u p p ly C h a in M a n a g e m e n t

E x c lu s i o n : if a n y th i n g a ff e c ts b r o a d c a s t in g t h e n w e
c la s s if y t h o s e a s e m e r g e n c i e s . ”
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

C a n y o u g iv e c o m m e n t o n t h a t o n t h e

c h a n g e d S u p p l y C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t in t h a t a s p e c t ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :
20

I - I - I a m s o r r y C h a ir.

I am unable to do so

b e c a u s e I - I c a n n o t r e c a l l i n - i n w h a t c o n t e x t th is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Th is w a s s a i d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I d o n o t k n o w th e c h a n g e s i n t h is - i n th e - in t h e
S u p p ly C h a in M a n a g e m e n t .

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Okay;

and

th e

next

-

the

next

p a r a g r a p h w h e r e i t s ta r t s w it h - t h e n e x t tw o - w e l l t h e r e a r e t w o
s e n te n c e s t h e n s t r a ig h t u n d e r n e a t h t h a t t h e r e is a d is c u s s i o n b y h i m
a b o u t f r e e l a n c e r s . C a n y o u r e a d t h a t o u t i n to t h e r e c o r d ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : “ O n th e is s u e o f fr e e l a n c e r s o n l y r u d e
o p e n fo r a b u s e is fr e e l a n c e r s . T h e r e is n o s c r u t in y.
10

C a u ti o n t h a t t o d o i t in tr a n s p a r e n t m a n n e r if n o t
and we know of shenanigans we are ruthless now
a s fa r a s fr a u d u l e n t u s e - u s e o f o r g a n is a t i o n
resources.”
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: And - and the next paragraph.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : “ N e w s h a s g o t 1 0 0 0 e m p lo y e e s . Th a t
- n e w s s h o u l d h a v e 1 0 0 0 e m p l o y e e s . Th a t s h o u l d
b e s u ff ic ie n t . I f - i f th e y a l l n e w s I w i ll w o r r y i f y o u
n e e d a n o th e r 5 0 0 .

T h is fi n a n c i a l y e a r I w i ll f o c u s

o n fr e e l a n c e r s . ”
20

A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A n d w h a t w a s h i s i n t e n ti o n t o f o c u s o n
fr e e l a n c e r s ? C a n y o u g iv e c o m m e n t to t h o s e tw o - t w o p a r a g r a p h s ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

O n th e fr e e l a n c e is s u e I d o k n o w th a t t h e

fr e e l a n c e r s C h a ir h a d s o m e i s s u e s t h a t t h e y h a d t a k e n to - y o u k n o w
b r o u g h t t o h is a t t e n t io n b u t I - I d o n o t k n o w t h e d e ta ils o f t h a t
c o m m u n ic a ti o n

between

fr e e l a n c e r s

and

Page 78 of 230

M r M o ts o e n e n g

and

how

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
e x a c tl y h e w a s g o i n g t o fo c u s o n fr e e l a n c e r s . U n fo r t u n a t e ly I w o u l d n o t
b e i n a t te n d a n c e o f fr e e l a n c e m e e ti n g s a s I a m a p e r m a n e n t s t a ff
m e m b e r.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A n d o n p a r a g r a p h 2 5 a n d a ls o to t o u c h
b a s e w i t h p a r a g r a p h 2 6 t h a t i s o n p a g e 7 o f y o u r m a i n s ta t e m e n t. Yo u
s t a te d t h a t M r M o ts o e n e n g ’s i n s tr u c ti o n s a t th a t w o r k s h o p w e n t a g a i n s t
t h e E d i to r i a l P o li c y a n d s o f o r t h .

C a n y o u j u s t t a l k to t h o s e tw o

p a r a g r a p h s p le a s e ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :
10

O k a y.

C h a ir w e l l M r M o ts o e n e n g ’s i n s tr u c t io n s

w e n t a g a in s t t h e I n t e r n a ti o n a l J o u r n a li s m C o d e o f C o n d u c t , t h e
E d it o r ia l C o d e o f th e S A B C a n d t h e l e g a l ly b i n d i n g d o c u m e n t s o f t h e
S o u th A fr ic a n C o n s ti t u ti o n a n d t h e B r o a d c a s ti n g A c t a n d m y o w n
personal views.
T h e s e in s tr u c ti o n s b y Mr M o ts o e n e n g h a v e c r e a t e d a r i ft
b e t w e e n t h o s e w h o w a n t to a d h e r e t o th e S o u t h A fr ic a n Br o a d c a s ti n g
A c t a n d t h o s e w h o f e a r e d l o s i n g t h e ir jo b s a n d t h is is p r e c is e ly t h e
s i tu a ti o n t h a t w a s a s t h e S A B C t h r e e y e a r s a g o a n d - a n d I w a n t to o n
t h e r e c o r d s ta t e t h a t t h e r e w e r e a l o t o f p e o p l e th a t d i d n o t l ik e w h a t h e
d i d b u t th e r e w e r e s in g le m o m s w h o c o u l d n o t a ffo r d t o l o s e t h e ir jo b s .

20

T h e r e w e r e s i n g l e h e a d h o u s e h o l d s w h o c o u l d n o t a ff o r d t o
lo s e t h e ir j o b s . S o n o t e v e r y b o d y - i t w a s n o t t h a t w e c o u l d a ffo r d t o
s t a n d u p b u t t h e r e w e r e s o m e p e o p le w h o t h e r is k - t h e p r ic e w a s t o o
high to pay to stand up.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Ye s te r d a y I h e a r d e v i d e n c e f r o m M s M o k h o b o

w h o w a s G r o u p C E O a t s o m e s t a g e a t t h e S A B C t h a t w i th i n a w e e k o r

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
w i t h i n - j a w i t h i n a w e e k o r s o a f t e r h e r a p p o in t m e n t a s G C E O s h e w a s
taken

by

M r M o ts o e n e n g

c o n g r a t u l a t e h i m ( s ic ) .

to

meet

the

G u p ta s

who

w a n te d

to

As a t t h is ti m e w a s t h e r e a n y k n o w le d g e

g e n e r a l ly s p e a k i n g w i t h i n S A B C a s t o w h e t h e r M r M o ts o e n e n g h a d a n y
r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h t h e G u p t a s …
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I w a s n o t a w a r e C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r i s t h a t s o m e t h in g th a t y o u - j a .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : B e c a u s e a t t h i s t i m e I w a s a c tu a lly a t E N C A .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
10

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : A t t h e t i m e o f M s M o k h o b o ’s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Te n u r e , j a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

M s P il l a y y o u s a id t h a t th e r e w e r e

t h o s e w h o fe a r e d to l o s e t h e ir jo b s .

W a s t h e r e a n y o n e - b e s id e s t h e

S A B C e ig h t - w a s t h e r e a n y o n e t h a t y o u h a v e - t h a t y o u h a d w o r k e d
w i t h a t t h e S A B C t h a t s t o o d u p th a t d e t e s t e d th e s e i n s tr u c t io n s a n d
a c t u a ll y l o s t t h e ir jo b ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ye s . M y c o l le a g u e Vu y o M v o k o a t l e a s t w e w e r e
20

r e i n s t a te d b u t Vu y o Mv o k o ’s f i g h t c o n ti n u e d .

He was without a salary

f o r a l m o s t t w o y e a r s a n d - a n d t h a t w a s a v e r y p a i n fu l e x p e r i e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: And he was part of the eight?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

H e w a s p a r t o f t h e e ig h t .

e m p l o y m e n t c o n t r a c t w a s d i ff e r e n t t o o u r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u w e r e p e r m a n e n t ?

Page 80 of 230

I t w a s ju s t t h a t h i s

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : W e w e r e p e r m a n e n t a n d h e w a s f r e e la n c e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e w a s a fr e e l a n c e r.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : A n d h e b o r e t h e b i g g e s t f in a n c ia l b r u n t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : O f s t a n d i n g u p .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : A lo t o f p e o p le w o u l d h a v e w a n te d t o s ta n d u p …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : A n d h a v e c o m e t o u s a n d g i v e n u s s u p p o r t …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : A n d e x p l a i n e d w h y t h e y c o u l d n o t a ff o r d t o lo s e
t h e ir j o b s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e ir s it u a ti o n s .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

A n d - a n d I - a n d I h o l d n o g r u d g e a g a i n s t my

c o l l e a g u e s a t a ll b e c a u s e t h e y w o u ld h a v e w a n t e d t o b u t w e h a v e a ls o
in t h is e c o n o m y C h a ir …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : W it h - w i th s o m e ti m e s t h e r e a l i ty i n S o u t h A f r ic a
is o n e s a l a r y …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : F e e d s m o r e t h a n o n e f a m i ly …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, huh-uh.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : A n d y o u h a v e g o t to k e e p t h a t i n m i n d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : W h is tl e b l o w i n g is o f t e n …

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I t i s n o t a v e r y g la m o r o u s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : Ta s k …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : A n d - a n d th e r e a r e s o m e h e a v y c o n s e q u e n c e s
that come with it.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . J a , i t is - i t is - i t is a r e a li ty. I - I o ft e n e x p r e s s
t h e c o n c e r n e v e n w i th r e g a r d t o t h e c o u r t o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n t h a t t h e r e
10

m u s t b e m a n y p e o p l e i n G o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts a n d m a y b e s o m e w h o
in th e p a s t w e r e M i n i s te r s a n d m a y b e s o m e a r e s t il l M i n i s te r s a n d s o m e
w h o - w h o m a y h a v e b e e n D G s , D e p u ty D G s a n d s o o n a n d C E O s o f
s o m e S O E s w h o m u s t h a v e a lo t - t h e y k n o w t h a t s h o u l d b e b r o u g h t
b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s io n b u t w h o h a v e n o t d o n e s o a n d s o m e o f t h e m
m a y b e - i t i s t h a t k i n d o f s i t u a ti o n .
T h e y a r e e m p l o y e d i n G o v e r n m e n t a n d t h e y h a v e a fe a r th a t
if t h e y w e r e t o c o m e a n d r e v e a l w h a t t h e y k n o w e it h e r t h e y w o u l d l o s e
t h e ir j o b s o r t h e y m i g h t fe a r t h a t s o m e t h i n g e ls e m ig h t h a p p e n …
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : H m .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e m e m a n a t in g fr o m w h o e v e r t h e y m i g h t i m p li c a t e
a n d i t i s - i t is q u i t e a c h a l le n g e b e c a u s e o n t h e o n e h a n d y o u d o n o t
w a n t to c l o s e y o u r e y e s t o y o u r r e a l i ty b u t a t th e s a m e ti m e y o u s a y
c a n w e c h a n g e t h e c o u n tr y f o r th e b e t t e r if w e d o n o t k n o w e x a c tly w h a t
happened.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : H m .

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
CHAIRPERSON:

I f w e d o n o t k n o w th e f u l l e x t e n t o f w h a t m a y h a v e

happened.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : H m .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i t b e c o m e s q u i t e a d i ffic u lt th i n g .

Yo u - i t is

d i ff ic u l t t o c r i tic is e p e o p l e w h o a r e i n th a t s it u a ti o n b u t a t th e s a m e
ti m e y o u - y o u k n o w t h a t t h e r e - t h e r e m a y b e p e o p l e - th e r e m a y b e
s t il l a l o t o f p e o p l e w h o - w h o c a n a ff o r d t o c o m e f o r w a r d w h o a r e n o t
a s d e s p e r a t e - w h o a r e n o t a s in a s d e s p e r a t e a s i t u a t i o n a s s o m e
p e o p l e m a y b e b u t i t - i t b e c o m e s q u it e d i ff i c u l t .
10

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S t r ik i n g t h e b a la n c e y o u - y o u a d m ir e t h o s e w h o a r e
a b l e to c o m e f o r w a r d b e c a u s e i t i s b e c a u s e o f p e o p l e w h o h a v e
b e h a v e d l ik e t h a t w h o h a v e c o m e f o r w a r d w h o h a v e h a d t h a t c o u r a g e
t h a t s o m e o f t h e t h in g s h a v e c o m e t o t h e f o r e a n d w i t h o u t t h o s e p e o p l e
c o m e fo r w a r d .

L o t s o f th in g s m i g h t h a v e h a p p e n e d w h ic h d i d n o t

h a p p e n b e c a u s e t h e y c o m e - c a m e f o r w a r d a n d t h e c o u n tr y c o u l d b e i n
a w o r s e s i tu a ti o n .
S o - s o w e a s a n a t i o n n e e d t o m a k e i t c le a r h o w m u c h w e
a p p r e c ia t e th o s e i n v a r i o u s G o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t s , S t a t e O w n e d
20

E n ti t ie s a n d j u s t i n c o m m u n i ty w h o c o m e f o r w a r d a n d s a y t h i s is m y
c o u n tr y. I k n o w th i n g s th a t h a v e g o n e w r o n g . Th e r e is a n o p p o r t u n i ty
t o m a k e a c o n t r i b u t i o n th a t m i g h t h e l p w it h t h e c h a n g e .

I w i ll c o m e

f o r w a r d . I k n o w t h a t i t i s n o t r is k fr e e b u t I w i ll c o m e f o r w a r d a n d I w il l
play my role.
S o - s o - b u t o n e j u s t d o e s n o t k n o w w h a t t o d o to e n c o u r a g e

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
m o r e p e o p le w h i le a c c e p t in g t h a t t h e r e a r e s o m e w h o d e fi n i t e l y w o u ld
lik e to b u t f e e l th a t th e i r s i t u a t io n i s t o o d e s p e r a t e .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . S o - s o I u n d e r s t a n d , j a . Th a n k y o u .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Th a n k

you

C h a ir.

M s P il l a y

M r M a tt h e w s h a d - h a s a n s w e r e d in t e r m s o f a 3 . 3 N o ti c e t h a t w a s
is s u e d . T h a t w o u l d b e C C 2 5 C h a ir. O n p a g e 2 0 o f C C 2 5 t h a t w o u l d b e
a t t h e ta il e n d o f t h a t d o c u m e n t M s P il l a y. A t th a t a ffi d a v i t u n d e r y o u
h e a d i n g - u n d e r y o u r n a m e K r iv a n i Pi ll a y h e s ta t e s :
“ I n p a r a g r a p h 1 4 o f Ms P i ll a y ’s a ff id a v i t s h e r e fe r s

10

t o th e s a m e e x tr a c t o f t h e m e e ti n g r e f e r r e d to b y
M r Kr ig e

in

paragraph

14

of

his

a ff i d a v i t .

I

a c c o r d i n g l y r e p e a t h is p a r a g r a p h s 1 5 a n d 1 6 a b o v e
in r e s p o n s e t h e r e t o . ”
W e h a v e r e a d t h e s a m e p a r a g r a p h s to M r K r i g e b u t h e is a ls o
responding to you.

S o c a n y o u c o m m e n t - k i n d ly c o m m e n t o n - w i t h

t h e s e i n d iv id u a l p a r a g r a p h s th a t I a m g o i n g t o b e r e a d i n g o n th e
record?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : I s t h a t p a r a g r a p h s 1 5 a n d 1 6 ?
20

A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : 1 5 a n d 1 6 t h a t w o u ld b e fo u n d o n p a g e
1 2 o f C C 2 5 . Ye s , h a v e y o u g o t i t ? A r e y o u t h e r e ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY : ( N o a u d i b le r e p l y ) .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

O n p a r a g r a p h - p a r a g r a p h 1 5 i t s ta t e s

that:
“ T h a t d e c is io n w a s m a d e b y M o t s o e n e n g .

Page 84 of 230

J u s t to

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
c la r i fy th a t d e c is io n w a s . T h e d e c is i o n w a s th a t t h e
A C B C ( s ic ) w o u l d n o lo n g e r s h o w a n y v is u a ls o f th e
d e s tr u c ti o n o f p r o p e r ty. ”
I t f u r t h e r s ta t e s :
“ I t w a s q u i t e c l e a r t h a t t h e n e w s s t a ff w e r e n o t
h a p p y w it h t h e d e c is io n a n d m a n y h a d d e c id e d n o t
t o i m p l e m e n t i t b e c a u s e i t b r e a c h e d t h e e d it o r i a l
p o li c i e s o f th e S A B C a n d th e p r i n c i p le o f f a ir n e w s
coverage.
arranged

10

I t w a s in t h a t c o n t e x t t h a t M o ts o e n e n g
to

meet

with

u n d e r m i n e h is d e c is io n .
those

m e e ti n g s

31 May 2016

and

where

those

who

dared

to

I was present at some of
at

the

m e e t in g

amongst

h e ld

o th e r

on

things

M o ts o e n e n g is r e p o r t e d to h a v e s a i d Si m o n i f y o u
d o n o t a d h e r e g e t r id o f t h e m .

We cannot have

p e o p l e t h a t q u e s ti o n m a n a g e m e n t . T h is i s t h e l a s t
ti m e t h a t w e w il l h a v e a m e e t in g o f t h is k i n d . ”
15.2:
“And
20

thereafter

I

r e p o r te d

to

have

said

to

jo u r n a li s ts th a t it is c o ld o u ts id e . I f y o u d o n o t lik e
it y o u c a n g o . Yo u h a v e g o t t w o c h o ic e s t h e d o o r o r
t h e w i n d o w. ”
C a n y o u j u s t g iv e a b r ie f c o m m e n t a r y o n t h o s e p a r a g r a p h s ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY :

T h i s is - t h i s C h a i r w a s - w a s a t t h e - a t t h e

m e e ti n g t h a t w e h a d w h e n h e d e c i d e d t o c a n c e l t h e - t h e e d i to r s a n d h e

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
is b a s ic a l ly c o n f ir m in g w h a t M r Kr i g e a n d I h a v e t o l d t h i s C o m m i s s i o n
in o u r - i n o u r e v i d e n c e . J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I s e e a t p a r a g r a p h 1 7 o f M r M a t t h e w s ’ s t a t e m e n t
that he says:
“ I t w a s b e c a u s e o f t h e c o r r o s iv e c i r c u ms t a n c e s i n
w h ic h I h a d f o u n d m y s e lf th a t I fi n a ll y f e l t t h a t th e
o n ly a l t e r n a t iv e w a s fo r m e t o r e s i g n fr o m m y
p o s i ti o n w i th t h e S A B C w i t h i m m e d i a te e ff e c t . ”
A n d i f o n e r e a d s t h is i n th e c o n te x t o f h is e n tir e a ffi d a v i t i t
10

d o e s a p p e a r t h a t h e is s a y i n g t h a t h e , h i m s e l f w a s n o t g o in g a l o n g w i th
some

o f t h e s e d e c is i o n s

fr o m Mr

M o ts o e n e n g

but he says

Mr

M o ts o e n e n g w a s s u c h t h a t i t w a s v e r y d i ffi c u l t to d is a g r e e w i th h i m o r
e x p r e s s d is s e n ti n g v i e w s a n d h e s a y s th a t h e w a s j u s t c a r r y i n g o u t M r
M o ts o e n e n g ’s i n s tr u c ti o n s .

S o g o i n g b a c k t o t h e q u e s ti o n I ’d a s k e d

e a r l ie r a b o u t w h e t h e r h is d e c is i o n to r e s i g n m a y h a v e b e e n c o n n e c t e d
w i t h t h e is s u e s y o u r a is e d i n th e l e t te r, i t m a y w e l l b e th a t , I m e a n t h e
is s u e s y o u r a i s e d i n t h a t l e t te r w e n t t o th e s a m e i s s u e s a b o u t th e
b r e a c h o f e d i t o r i a l i n d e p e n d e n c e a n d s o o n , t h e p o li c y a n d s o o n , y e s
o k a y.
20

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d la s t ly ju s t t o - i n

r e s p o n s e t o y o u r s t a t e m e n t M is s P il la y, i n p a r a g r a p h 1 6 M r M a t th e w s
s t a te s t h a t,
“ I a c c e p t t h a t I d i d n o t s ta n d u p t o M o t s o e n e n g o r v o ic e my
c o n c e r n s a b o u t h is d e c is i o n o r h i s s ta n c e a n d I r e p e a t th a t i t
w a s e x tr e m e ly d i ffic u lt t o d is a g r e e w it h h i m o r t a k e a d i ffe r e n t

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
v ie w i n a n a t m o s p h e r e t h a t w a s h ig h l y c o r r o s i v e . I a ls o a c c e p t
t h a t i t w a s a n u n fo r t u n a t e c h o i c e o f w o r d s t h a t I w a s m e r e l y
tr y i n g to w a r n t h e j o u r n a li s ts o f Mr M o ts o e n e n g ’s a p p r o a c h t o
d is s e n t in g v i e w s i n w h a t h a d b e c o m e a tr i t e m e t h o d o f th e w a y
he operated.

T h a t a n y o n e w h o o p p o s e d h i m o r v o ic e d a

d is s e n t in g v ie w w o u l d f a c e t h e p r o s p e c t o f d i s mi s s a l b u t I d e n y
a n y in v i t a ti o n th a t , b y m y p r e s e n c e in s u c h m e e ti n g s I h a d
a s s o c i a t e d my s e l f w i th h i s a c c u s a t i o n s t h a t s u c h s t a ff w e r e
g u il ty o f d e s ta b i li s i n g t h e S A B C a n d s o m e h o w o n my o w n o r b y
a s s o c i a t i o n a s s u m e d r e s p o n s i b i li ty f o r th e d is m i s s a l o f S A B C 8

10

in c i r c u ms t a n c e s w h e n m y r e s i g n a ti o n h a d p r e c e d e d t h e
d is m i s s a l s ” ,
C a n y o u g iv e c o m m e n t o n th a t M is s P i ll a y ?
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY:

C h a ir t h is w a s t h e fi r s t ti m e t h i s r e s p o n s e – Mr

M a t t h e w s r e s p o n s e is th e fir s t t i m e th a t I ’v e h e a r d o f h is r e s p o n s e to
a n y th in g t h a t I h a v e p r e s e n te d i n p u b li c s in c e t h a t M a y m e e t in g th r e e
years ago.

T h i s m a y h a v e n o r e l e v a n c e t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n b u t I’ m

H i n d u b y b e l i e f a n d a G o d f e a r i n g p e r s o n a n d I b e li e v e t o e r r i s h u m a n
a n d t o f o r g i v e i s d i v i n e a n d t h a t th is is t h e c l o s e s t o f a n y k i n d o f
20

e x p l a n a t io n o r e v e n t o s tr e t c h i t to a n a p o l o g y th a t I w il l e v e r r e c e iv e
fr o m M r M a t t h e w s b u t I d o w a n t t o p l a c e o n r e c o r d t h a t i f h e d e e m e d
a n d fe l t t h i s w a y h e h a d m a n y o p p o r t u n i t ie s t o c o m e t o t h e f o r e , lik e
P a r li a m e n t a n d li k e t h is C o m m i s s i o n i t s e l f b e c a u s e i t r e a l ly is i m p o r ta n t
t o s h o w, C h a ir,
abused.

h o w t h e n e w s r o o m w a s a b u s e d b e c a u s e i t r e a l ly w a s

T h e r e ’s a l o t o f tr a u m a i n o u r n e w s r o o m t h a t ’s v e r y s lo w ly

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
s t a r ti n g t o h e a l b u t I a c c e p t Mr M a t t h e w s ’ e x p la n a ti o n a n d I h o p e t h a t
t h is C o m m is s i o n c a n i n s o m e w a y o r a n o t h e r, i n y o u r fi n d i n g s o r
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s e n s u r e th a t th is k i n d o f r e a s o n i n g w il l n e v e r h o l d
w a t e r e v e r a g a i n i n t h e n e w s r o o m in t h e P u b l ic B r o a d c a s t e r. W e n e e d
t o h a v e u n fa il in g l e a d e r s h ip f o r s u c h a m a s s iv e i n s ti t u ti o n . Ev e r y b o d y
w a n ts t h e ir h a n d s o n th e P u b l ic B r o a d c a s t e r, i t ’s th e f ir s t p l a c e y o u w il l
s t a r t i f y o u w a n t t o c a p tu r e a m i n d o r c a p t u r e a n a ti o n o r fo r t h a t m a t te r
government

and

n o w ’s

th e

ti m e

to

ensure

that

whatever

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s y o u m a k e , C h a ir, w i ll a ll d u e r e s p e c t, th a t t h is
10

n e w s r o o m a n d t h i s o r g a n is a ti o n is d u ly p r o t e c te d .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t – i t w i ll b e i m p o r ta n t t h a t

m e d i a p e o p l e l ik e y o u r s e lv e s , j o u r n a li s t a n d p e o p l e a t S A B C , t h e y k e e p
tr a c k o f th e p r o g r e s s o f th e C o m m i s s i o n b e c a u s e a t a c e r ta i n s t a g e I
w o u ld

be

very

interested

in

g e t ti n g

s u b m is s i o n s

fr o m

v a r io u s

s t a k e h o ld e r s a s to w h a t t h e y t h i n k w o u ld b e t h e r i g h t r e c o m m e n d a t io n s
t o m a k e i n r e g a r d t o t h e ir o w n s it u a ti o n s o r t h e ir o w n i n s ti t u ti o n s w i th
r e g a r d t o m a y h a v e h a p p e n e d in t h e p a s t in t h e ir o w n i n s t i tu t io n s t o
m a k e s u r e t h a t i f t h o s e r e c o m m e n d a t io n s a r e i m p le m e n t e d it n e v e r
h a p p e n s a g a i n . S o it w il l b e i m p o r ta n t t h a t, y o u k n o w, p e o p l e i n th e
20

m e d i a , j o u r n a li s t s a n d e v e r y b o d y w h o is c o n c e r n e d w i t h t h e m e d i a , t h e y
b e g in t o r e f le c t o n w h a t t y p e s o f r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t h e y w o u ld lik e t o
p u t fo r w a r d b e f o r e m e t o c o n s id e r fo r w h e n I h a v e to m a k e my
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s in r e g a r d t o v a r io u s s e c t o r s t h a t t h e C o m m i s s io n h a s
been looking at.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY:

C h a i r w o u l d y o u l ik e m e t o t a k e t h a t m e s s a g e

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
b a c k to o u r n e w s r o o m ?
COMMISSIONER:

P l e a s e , p l e a s e y e s , y o u k n o w, n o t j u s t t h e S A B C

e v e r y b o d y, y o u k n o w, o t h e r m e d i a h o u s e s , I’ m v e r y i n te r e s te d in g e t ti n g
s u b m is s io n s in d u e c o u r s e o n w h a t r e c o m m e n d a t io n s I s h o u l d c o n s i d e r
t o m a k e s u r e t h a t i f t h o s e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s a r e i m p le m e n t e d w e
p r e v e n t s o m e o f t h e th in g s t h a t h a v e h a p p e n e d i n t h e p a s t fr o m
h a p p e n in g i n t h e f u tu r e b e c a u s e t h a t ’s v e r y, v e r y i m p o r t a n t . S o p l e a s e
do take it back to the newsroom.
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u , w i ll d o .

B u t I a ls o w a n t e d to a s k th e q u e s t i o n , y o u r e f e r r e d to

s o m e o f y o u r c o l l e a g u e s , w h o , w h e n th e s e th i n g s w e r e h a p p e n i n g t o
the newsroom and to the SABC8 came to you and gave you support but
in d i c a t e d t h a t t h e y c o u l d n ’ t g iv e y o u o p e n s u p p o r t o r c o u l d n ’ t ta k e t h e
s a m e s t a n d b e c a u s e o f t h e ir s i tu a ti o n .

Those people were fearing

lo s i n g th e i r j o b s , m a y b e Mr M o ts o e n e n g h a d t h e p o w e r t o d is m i s s t h e m ,
b u t I d o n ’t i m a g i n e h e h a d p o w e r t o d is m is s t h e a c ti n g G C E O t o t h e
e x t e n t t h a t M r J i m i M a t th e w s m a y h a v e b e e n a c ti n g G C E O a t t h a t ti m e
m a y b e t h a t i s a d i ffe r e n t ti m e b e c a u s e I’ m t r y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d h is fe a r
o f Mr M o t s o e n e n g o f s a y i n g n o to h i m a n d s a y i n g – h e s a y s i t w a s
20

d i ff ic u l t to a r g u e w i t h h i m i t w a s d i ff ic u l t t o ta k e a d i ffe r e n t v i e w t o h i m .
M y q u e s t i o n is , h e w a s s o s e n i o r, w h y w a s i t s o d i ffi c u l t, n o w y o u m a y
o r m a y n o t b e a b le to e x p l a i n t h a t to m e a s y o u u n d e r s to o d t h e
s i tu a ti o n .

I t m a y b e t h a t y o u s a y, l o o k I k n o w h o w t h e s i tu a ti o n w a s ,

m a y b e t h e a c t i n g G C E O w o u l d tr e m b l e w h e n M r M o t s o e n e n g s t e p p e d in
o r c a m e i n to t h e r o o m , I d o n ’ t k n o w, I ’ m t r y in g t o u n d e r s t a n d w h y,

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
s o m e b o d y a t th a t s e n io r l e v e l w o u l d f e e l t h a t t h e y c o u ld n ’ t s t a n d t h e ir
g r o u n d a g a in s t M r M o t s o e n e n g . N o w i t m a y b e t h a t i f th is w a s d u r i n g
t h e ti m e w h e n h e w a s a c t in g G C E O t h e f a c t th a t h e w a s a c ti n g m e a n t
t h a t h e r e m a in e d a s v u l n e r a b l e a s i f h e w a s n o t a c t i n g b e c a u s e h e
c o u l d g o b a c k t o h is p o s i ti o n i n d u e c o u r s e a n d t h e n h e c o u ld b e
d is m i s s e d . I t m a y b e th a t h e w a s n o t a c t i n g G C E O a t th e ti m e , h e w a s
ju s t i n h is p o s it i o n b u t I ’ m w o n d e r i n g e v e n if h e w a s n o t a c ti n g G C E O
a t th e p o s i t io n w h ic h h e o c c u p i e d w h i c h m i g h t n o t n e c e s s a r i ly h a v e
b e e n a b o v e t h a t o f Mr M o ts o e n e n g a n d m ig h t n o t e v e n h a v e b e e n ,
10

m a y b e a t t h e s a m e l e v e l I d o n ’ t k n o w, w h e th e r n e v e r t h e l e s s s o m e b o d y
a t th a t l e v e l, a l th o u g h i t w o u l d b e u n r e a s o n a b l e t o h a v e e x p e c t e d t h a t
s o m e b o d y a t th a t l e v e l w o u l d s ta n d u p a n d s a y n o .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY:

C h a i r y o u r a is e a v e r y i n t e r e s t in g p o i n t , I m e a n

t h e G C E O , l ik e y o u h e a r d f r o m M r M a d o d o t h is w e e k a n d h e i s t h e fi n a l
a c c o u n t in g o ff ic e r, h e is th e f i n a l v o ic e a n d s i g n a tu r e f o r m a n y o f t h e
d e c is i o n s , s o it w o u l d b e v e r y h a r d t o e x p l a i n th e d y n a m ic C h a ir
b e t w e e n M r M a t t h e w s a n d M r M o t s o e n e n g . I h a d n ’ t c o m e i n to c o n t a c t
w i t h t h e m m u c h a t a l l in f a c t b e f o r e b e in g s u m m o n e d t o th a t m e e ti n g .
S o I w o u l d n ’ t b e a b l e t o u n d e r s ta n d t h e d y n a m i c t h a t e x i s ts t h e r e b u t
20

ju s t i n th is , k i n d o f , n e w S A B C t h a t w e ’r e e x p e r i e n c i n g w i t h th e n e w
e x e c u tiv e s th a t o n - b o a r d , t h e r e ’s a l o t m o r e tr a n s p a r e n c y th a n w e h a v e
b e e n u s e d to o r h a v e b e e n e x p o s e d . Th e r e ’s a lo t m o r e c o m m u n ic a ti o n
t o u s t h a n w e ’v e b e e n e x p o s e d o r h a v e e x p e r i e n c e d a n d I’ m n o t s a y in g
t h a t , y o u k n o w, th e y a r e g o i n g t o t a k e u s o u t – I ’ m h o p i n g t h e y a r e
g o i n g t o ta k e u s o u t o f o u r c u r r e n t s i t u a t io n b u t i t’s a r e fr e s h in g

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le a d e r s h i p C h a ir. I h a v e c e r ta in ly n o t e x p e r i e n c e d t h i s a t th e S A B C .
CHAIRPERSON:

In a long time?

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY:

I n a l o n g t i m e , s o i t w o u l d b e d i ff ic u l t fo r – fr o m

w h a t I s e e fr o m th e c u r r e n t e x e c u t iv e s a n d h o w t h e y c o m m u n ic a t e t o u s
t o w h a t I ’v e e x p e r i e n c e d w i t h M r M o t s o e n e n g a n d M r M a t t h e w s in th a t
m e e ti n g i s c h a lk a n d c h e e s e b u t t o ta l k a b o u t w h e t h e r – w h y M r
M a t t h e w s , w o u l d n ’ t , a s a c ti n g G C E O s ta n d u p t o th e C O O w o u l d b e
v e r y d i ffi c u l t fo r m e t o k in d o f u n d e r s t a n d w h y t h a t h a p p e n e d o r w h y i t
didn’t happen.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll m a y b e o t h e r s a r e w i t n e s s e s – a m o n g t h e o t h e r

w i t n e s s e s f r o m t h e S A B C w h o w il l g i v e e v i d e n c e t h e r e m a y b e
s o m e b o d y w h o m i g h t b e a b l e t o g i v e t h e i r o w n p e r s p e c ti v e i n r e g a r d t o
t h a t . I k n o w t h a t y e s te r d a y M i s s M o k h o b o a l s o t e s t i fi e d th a t t h e r e w a s
a ti m e b e f o r e s h e d e c i d e d to l e a v e th e S A B C , a p a r t fr o m h e r f ig h ts a n d
d is a g r e e m e n t w i t h t h e , t h e n , C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d Ms Ts h a b a l a l a
s h e s a i d s h e h a d l o t o f f i g h ts w i t h Mr M o t s o e n e n g , n o w M r M o t s o e n e n g
I take it was at a lower level because obviously Group CEO is the
u l ti m a t e w i th i n th e e x e c u t iv e m a n a g e m e n t b u t f r o m w h a t s h e s a i d , I g o t
t h e i m p r e s s io n t h a t M r M o t s o e n e n g , a n d I h o p e I ’ m n o t b e i n g u n fa ir to
20

h i m a n d I h o p e I ’ m n o t m i s c o n s t r u in g M i s s M o k h o b o ’s e v i d e n c e b u t I
g o t t h e i m p r e s s io n t h a t s h e w a s s a y in g M r M o ts o e n e n g w a s a ls o k i n d o f
p r e s s u r is i n g h e r t o le a v e o r m a k in g li f e d i f fi c u l t f o r h e r a n d p a r t o f w h a t
I’ d li k e t o k n o w is ,

what was going on,

h o w i s i t p o s s i b le fo r t h is

p e r s o n w h o i s n o t t h e C E O , w h o is t h e C O O , o f c o u r s e t h a t’s s ti ll q u it e
a h ig h p o s i ti o n t o s e e m to h a v e p o w e r t o m a k e

Page 91 of 230

i t d i ffi c u l t n o t j u s t f o r

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
p e o p l e u n d e r h i m b u t e v e n t h o s e w h o a r e a b o v e h i m t o j u s t m a k e li f e
d i ff ic u l t w i t h t h e r e s u l t t h a t m a y b e h e w a s j u s t g e t t in g t h i n g s h is w a y,
b u t y o u w ill n o t b e a b l e t o e x p l a i n , m a y b e s o m e b o d y w il l b e a b l e t o
e x p l a i n y e s , th a n k y o u .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M is s P i ll a y w e ’v e

r e a c h e d t h e t a i l e n d o f y o u r m a i n s t a te m e n t a n d s u p p l e m e n ta r y
s t a te m e n t a p a r t fr o m w h a t w a s s a i d a n d is th e r e a n y t h in g e ls e th a t y o u
w o u ld l ik e t o d is c lo s e o r a n y c o m m e n ta r y a n d s o f o r t h , f u r th e r
commentary?
10

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY:

T h a n k y o u A d v o c a t e , C h a i r I h a v e j u s t b e fo r e i n

p r e p a r a ti o n f o r e v i d e n c e to d a y, a s y o u k n o w e v e n th o u g h I a m g iv i n g
e v i d e n c e m o s tly o n S A F M c u r r e n t a ff a i r s I a m p a r t o f t h e s o - c a l le d
S A B C a i d s a n d s o m e o f u s h a d a b r ie f c a u c u s y e s t e r d a y a n d t h e r e a r e
a f e w th in g s t h a t I w o u l d l ik e to p u t o n r e c o r d i f y o u d o n ’ t m i n d ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s y o u c a n g o a h e a d j a .

M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY:

So despite everything that has happened,

d u r i n g o u r f i g h t a s t h e S A B C 8 w e h a v e f o u n d t h a t t h e m a jo r i ty o f
s u p p o r t w e ’v e h a d h a s b e e n o v e r w h e l m i n g ly fr o m d e m o c r a c y l o v i n g
p e o p l e a n d w e w a n t t o p l a c e o n r e c o r d o u r th a n k s t o t h e S o u th A fr ic a n
20

p u b lic a n d o u r t h a n k s t o t h e e n tir e j o u r n a li s m c o m m u n i ty.

I t is o n e

e v e n t t h a t – w e c a n ’ t r e c a ll i n r e c e n t h is to r y w h e r e o n e o f t h e
jo u r n a li s m c o m m u n i ty c a m e to g e th e r r e g a r d l e s s i f y o u w e r e p r i v a t e o r
p u b lic a n d r e g a r d l e s s o f w h a t p la t f o r m y o u b e l o n g t o .

They came

t o g e th e r t o g i v e u s s u p p o r t a n d o u r p u b l ic s u p p o r t w a s g e n e r o u s l y –
w e n t in t o c r o w d f u n d i n g w h e r e w e – w h e n w e w e r e fir e d w e r e c e iv e d a

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
s u m o f m o n e y f r o m t h e p u b li c th a t a s s is t e d u s b u t u n f o r t u n a t e l y w h a t
h a p p e n e d h e r e a t t h is C o m m i s s i o n w a s a v e r y g e n e r o u s a n d i n n o c e n t
c r o w d f u n d i n g id e a , w a s t h e n u s u r p e d w h e n B o s a s a c l a i m e d t h a t
B o s a s a h a d m a d e a d o n a ti o n t o t h i s w h ic h w a s p r o v e n t o b e c o m p l e te ly
u n tr u e a n d w e w a n t t o p u t o n r e c o r d o u r a b s o l u te t h a n k s t o th e p e o p l e
w h o h a v e p u t to g e th e r t h a t f u n d d u r i n g o u r t i m e o f n e e d . A ls o C h a ir w e
w a n t t o p u t o n r e c o r d o u r t h a n k s t o A s la m M u s s a G a n d A d v o c a t e
S t e p h e n B u d l e n d e r, w h o o v e r m o n t h s w o r k e d w i th u s p r o b o n o a n d
r e a l ly s to o d t h e t e s t o f t i m e w i th t h e S A B C 8 b u t w e a ls o w a n t t o p u t o n
10

r e c o r d s o m e t h in g th a t w e a r e q u i te d i s a p p o in t e d w i t h a n d t h a t’s t h e
r e c e n t e d i to r i a l i n q u ir y r e p o r t fr o m D r J o K la w e , w e a r e d i s a p p o i n te d i n
t h e r e s u l ts o f t h a t r e p o r t b e c a u s e w e h a v e b e e n t o P a r li a m e n t a n d
h a v e , u n d e r o a t h , s ta t e d o u r e x p e r i e n c e s o f t h e p r o t e s t p o l ic y o f th e
r e m o v a l o f t h e p r o g r a m m e a n d w e f i n d i t v e r y d i ffi c u l t t o u n d e r s ta n d
that conclusion.

W e u n d e r s ta n d t h a t t h e r e w i ll b e n o te l e p h o n e c a ll

p r o o f o r e m a il p r o o f o r p h o to g r a p h ic p r o o f o r v i d e o p r o o f b u t w e d o f i n d
t h a t , t h a t k i n d o f c o n c l u s i o n w a s q u i te w o r r y i n g a n d c o n c e r n i n g to s a y
the least.

W e a l s o b e li e v e th a t w h e n t h e S A B C i n tr o d u c e d t h e t w o

in q u ir ie s , s e x u a l h a r a s s m e n t a n d t h e e d i t o r i a l i n q u ir y, o u r c o ll e a g u e s
20

w e r e g u a r a n te e d a n o n y m i ty t o c o m e f o r w a r d w i t h i n fo r m a t i o n , t h is w a s
h o n o u r e d b y t h e s e x u a l h a r a s s m e n t in q u ir y b u t i t w a s n o t h o n o u r e d b y
t h e e d i t o r i a l i n q u ir y.

Th e fi n a l r e p o r t p u b lis h e d a ll t h e n a m e s o f

e v e r y o n e w h o c a m e b e f o r e . I p e r s o n a lly d o n ’ t m i n d b e c a u s e w h a t e v e r I
h a v e b r o u g h t t o y o u r a t te n t io n i s a lr e a d y in t h e p u b li c d o m a i n w h ic h I
h a v e b r o u g h t t o D r J o e K l a w e ’s a t t e n t i o n b u t t h e r e a r e s o m e p e o p l e

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
w h o s to o d u p fo r t h e f ir s t t i m e w i th t h e a n o n y m i ty g u a r a n t e e d a n d
w h o s e n a m e s w e r e th e n p la s t e r e d a l l o v e r t h a t r e p o r t . M y c o n c e r n a n d
o u r c o n c e r n a s t h e S A B C a i d s is th a t g o i n g f o r w a r d s h o u l d a n y b o d y
w a n t t o w h is t le b lo w o r b r in g a n o n y m o u s l y is s u e s t o t h e fo r e w il l th e ir
id e n t i ty b e s e c u r e .

A s jo u r n a l is ts w e h a v e to p r o t e c t o u r s o u r c e s ,

jo u r n a li s ts w e r e t h e s o u r c e s h e r e a n d n o b o d y p r o t e c t e d t h e m .

So we

w a n t t o b r i n g t h a t a n d p u t t h a t o n th e r e c o r d C h a ir a n d f in a lly I w a n t to
s a y t h a t w h e n a p r o g r a m m e is r e m o v e d a n d w h e n y o u d e c i d e w h a t t h e
p u b lic n e e d s to s e e o r h e a r, w h o d o e s th a t b e n e f i t? It c e r t a i n ly d o e s n ’ t
10

b e n e fi t t h e c i ti z e n r y i t d o e s n ’ t b e n e fi t th e p u b lic w e a r e m e a n t t o s e r v e .
W h e n y o u t a k e o u t p l u r a l i ty o f v ie w s a n d d i ff e r e n t p e r s p e c ti v e s a n d y o u
d e c i d e w h a t y o u r a u d i e n c e , y o u r v i e w e r w i ll s e e a n d h e a r, w h o d o e s
t h a t b e n e fi t ?

S u r e ly a l l o f t h i s a m o u n ts t o a f o r m o f c a p t u r e , m e d i a

c a p tu r e i n m y o p in i o n .

S o C h a ir I i m p l o r e t h is C o m m i s s io n t o p l e a s e

s a f e g u a r d t h e r ig h ts o f th e S A B C n e w s r o o m a n d to e n s u r e i ts l o n g e v i t y
a n d to h e l p s a v e o u r o r g a n i s a t io n a n d t h a t ’s a l l I w is h t o s u b m i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M is s P i ll a y a n d o n c e a g a in

t h a n k y o u fo r c o m in g t o s h a r e w it h t h e C o m m is s i o n y o u r e x p e r i e n c e s
a n d w h a t y o u k n o w, w e a p p r e c ia t e i t, i f a n e e d a r is e s w e w i ll a s k y o u t o
20

c o m e b a c k , b u t th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h a n d y o u a r e e x c u s e d .
M S K R I VA N I P I L L AY:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Thank you.

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .

W e a r e a t t e n to o n e a n d m a y b e y o u r w a tc h s a y s

w e a r e a t e i g h t m i n u te s t o o n e .

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Te n t o o n e C h a ir.

O k a y, y e s I g u e s s m a y b e w e s h o u l d s t a r t t h e n e x t

witness at two?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

t h a t w o u l d b e p e r f e c t ly fi n e .

B e c a u s e i t ’s j u s t t e n m i n u t e s … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .

ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s a b s o l u te ly fi n e C h a ir.

I f w e tr y t o s ta r t n o w w e w o u l d h a v e t o b r e a k

before much has been said.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

I n d e e d s o C h a ir.

O k a y w e ’ ll ta k e th e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t n o w a n d w e ’ ll

r e s u m e a t t w o o ’c l o c k , w e a d jo u r n .
REGISTRAR:

All rise.

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready Ms Norma n?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : G o o d a f te r n o o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d a f te r n o o n .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : M r C h a ir m a n t h e n e x t w i tn e s s is a ls o fr o m
t h e S A B C a n d h is n a m e is M r M w a b a P h ir i. I h a d a s k e d t h e R e g is tr a r
t o o p e n u p E x h i b i t C C 1 6 b e f o r e y o u M r C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . W e w il l a ls o m a k e r e fe r e n c e
to Exhibit 25.

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h ic h is M r M a t t h e w s ’ s t a t e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . M a y t h e w it n e s s b e s w o r n in ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . P le a s e a d m i n i s te r t h e o a t h o r a ff ir m a t io n .
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: M w a b a P h ir i .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n w i th m a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

a ffir m a t i o n ?
10

M R M WA B A P H I R I: I h a v e n o o b je c ti o n .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u s o le m n ly a ffi r m t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e y o u w i ll g i v e

s h a l l b e th e tr u th ; t h e w h o l e t r u t h a n d n o t h in g b u t t h e tr u th ; i f s o p le a s e
r a i s e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, I tr u ly a ffi r m ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: I tr u ly a ff ir m .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you Mr Chairman.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m a y p r o c e e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s I m a y p r o c e e d . T h a n k y o u . Mr P h ir i
y o u h a v e i n fr o n t o f y o u a l e v e r a r c h f il e a n d I h a d a s k e d th a t y o u h a v e
20

a l o o k a t a d iv id e r m a r k e d C C 1 6 w h ic h c o n ta in s w h a t a p p e a r s t o b e
y o u r s t a t e m e n t , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h a t is tr u e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u j. I f y o u g o t o t h a t p a g e 1 o f
t h a t d o c u m e n t i t h a s y o u r n a m e s , y o u r f u ll n a m e s th e r e a n d t h e n I
w o u ld lik e y o u t o h a v e a l o o k a t p a g e 6 ?

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M R M WA B A P H I R I: P a g e 6 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Is t h a t y o u r s i g n a t u r e ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h a t is m y s i g n a t u r e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. And then if you go to page 7
d i d y o u d e p o s e t o t h a t a ff id a v i t a t B r ix t o n 2 1 s t – o n t h e 2 1 s t A u g u s t
2019?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s I d i d .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s t h a n k y o u . A n d a r e t h e c o n t e n ts o f

y o u r s t a t e m e n t tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ?
10

M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h e y a r e tr u e a n d c o r r e c t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . Mr P h ir i is c o r r e c t t h a t y o u
employed by the SABC?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: It is c o r r e c t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I n w h a t p o s it i o n a r e y o u e m p lo y e d ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: I a m a n E x e c u tiv e P r o d u c e r in t h e C u r r e n t A ff a ir s
d e p a r t m e n t.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . F o r h o w lo n g h a v e y o u b e e n w i th t h e
SABC?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h e S A B C r e c r u it e d m e f r o m L u s a k a i n 1 9 9 6 .

20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H IR I: M y m a th s is v e r y b a d . 2 0 – s o r r y th a t s h o u l d b e
25 years.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

C o u l d y o u j u s t – j u s t b r ie f ly p l a c e y o u r

Page 97 of 230

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
q u a li fi c a t io n s o n r e c o r d ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

I h o l d a P o s t G r a d u a te D i p l o m a i n B u s i n e s s

M a n a g e m e n t fr o m M i l p a r k B u s i n e s s S c h o o l. O r a m I g o i n g a b o u t i t t h e
w r o n g w a y ? S h o u l d s ta r t fr o m m y m a tr ic ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o Mr P h ir i y o u c a n …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : B u t j u s t b e c a r e fu l n o t to …
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Yo u c a n s t a r t fr o m a n y w h e r e b e c a u s e y o u k n o w

s o m e t i m e s m a y b e if y o u s t a r t in a c e r t a i n w a y p e o p l e th i n k y o u b e lo n g
t o a c e r t a i n a g e g r o u p . S o s t a r t w h e r e y o u w a n t to s t a r t .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A n d I a ls o h o l d
a

Bachelor

of

Mass

C o m m u n ic a ti o n s

Honours

Degree

from

the

U n iv e r s i ty o f Z a m b ia o b t a in e d i n 1 9 8 9 . I m a tr ic u l a te d i n Z a m b i a i n P a ti
M u f u l ir a S e c o n d a r y S c h o o l .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: In 1 9 7 5 . Th a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h a t is a ll .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d n o w in t e r m s o f y o u r c a r e e r y o u to l d
t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t t h e n y o u w e r e r e c r u it e d in 1 9 9 6 .

Before that if

y o u w e r e i n Za m b i a w h a t p o s i ti o n s w e r e y o u h o l d in g th e r e ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: O h I w o r k e d i n v a r i o u s o r g a n is a t i o n s . I w o r k e d w it h
Zambia

In f o r m a t io n

S e r v ic e s ,

Zambia

News Agency

N a t io n a l B r o a d c a s t in g C o r p o r a ti o n .

Page 98 of 230

and

Zambia

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

Did you then when you

w e r e r e c r u i t e d t o S o u t h A f r ic a d i d y o u – t o t h e S A B C r a th e r d i d y o u
p r o g r e s s th r o u g h t h e r a n k s o r w e r e y o u r e c r u i te d j u s t t o h o l d p o s i ti o n s
in t h e e x e c u tiv e o r m a n a g e m e n t p o s i t io n s ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

N o I w e n t t h r o u g h th e r a n k s .

I w a s i n i ti a lly

r e c r u it e d b e c a u s e t h e S A B C w a s o n a v e r y b i g p r o g r a m to v e n tu r e i n t o
t h e c o n ti n e n t . S o C h a n n e l A fr ic a R a d i o S t a ti o n is t h e o n e t h a t b r o u g h t
m e t o J o h a n n e s b u r g . B u t t h e n a s I w a s h e r e t h e S A B C s t a r t e d t h e fir s t
2 4 h o u r n e w s c h a n n e l i t w a s c a ll e d S A B C A f r i c a a n d t h e n I – I w a s
10

m o v e d fr o m t h e r a d i o t o te le v i s i o n . Fr o m 1 9 9 8 u p t o n o w I h a v e b e e n
r is i n g – y e s I m i g h t s a y w h a t y o u c a l l r is i n g t h r o u g h th e r a n k s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: H a p p e n e d t o m e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . A n d th e n i n p a r a g r a p h 3 o f
your statement at page 1.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: P a r a g r a p h 3 .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Page 1.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s C h a ir I h a v e g o t it .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

20

Ye s y o u s t a te t h e r e th a t y o u w e r e

a p p r o a c h e d b y t h e i n v e s t ig a to r s o f th e c o m m i s s io n h e n c e y o u d e p o s e d
t o t h i s a ff id a v i t . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s th a n k y o u .

What – would you just

b r i e fl y t e l l t h e C h a ir p e r s o n a b o u t th e q u e s ti o n t i m e p r o g r a m t h a t y o u
d e a l w i t h i n p a r a g r a p h 5 a t p a g e 2 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t a s t o w h a t w a s

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
t h is p r o g r a m a n d h o w l o n g d i d i t l a s t a n d h o w d i d i t e n d ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

Q u e s ti o n ti m e w a s a p r o g r a m d e s i g n e d t o

in t e r r o g a t e n e w s m a k e r s o f v a r i o u s w h a t s h o u ld I s a y, p r o f e s s i o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i ffe r e n t s e c to r s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: D i ff e r e n t s e c t o r s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

I t w a s p r o v i d in g a n in - d e p th k i n d o f f e e l a b o u t

w h a t i s b r e a k – w h a t is m a k i n g n e w s ?
10

making news.

L ik e r i g h t n o w t h e v i o l e n c e is

W e w o u l d h a v e p r o b a b ly b r o u g h t i n t h e H o m e A ff a ir s

M i n is t e r o r v a r i o u s N G O ’s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: It w a s th a t k in d o f p r o g r a m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: I t s t a r te d j u s t i n i t ia ll y w i t h t h e – w i t h t h e s ta r t o f
t h e S A B C N e w s c h a n n e l in 2 0 1 2 . S o w e w e r e o n a ir fr o m 2 0 1 2 u p to
2018.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

And then how did you halt that

program?
20

M R M WA B A P H I R I: S o r r y I d i d n o t g e t y o u r q u e s t io n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : H o w d id y o u p u t a n e n d t o t h e p r o g r a m o r
why?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: I n e v e r p u t a n e n d to th a t p r o g r a m . Th e p r o g r a m
w a s h a l te d in v e r y, v e r y c o n tr o v e r s i a l c ir c u m s ta n c e s . D u r i n g r e i g n o f Mr
M o ts o e n e n g ,

Mr

H la u d i

Motsoeneng

the

Page 100 of 230

program

was

quite

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
c o n tr o v e r s i a l i n t h a t w e b r o u g h t p e o p l e t h a t w e r e n o t fr i e n d s o f f o r l a c k
o f a b e tt e r w o r d y e s n o t fr i e n d s p e o p le w h o m m a n a g e m e n t w a s n o t
h a p p y a b o u t t o o u r p la t f o r m s a n d th is a n n o y e d m o s t o f o u r m a n a g e r s .
S o m u c h s o t h a t w e u s e d to – w e e n d e d u p c o m i n g in a n d f u lf il li n g o u r
m a n d a t e r a t h e r s e c r e tl y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H IR I : L ik e t h e in s ta n c e s I h a v e p u t in m y a ffi d a v it w h e r e
w e h a v e – w e h a d t o s m u g g l e i n M s M a d o n s e la , Ms T h u li M a d o n s e la
a ft e r s h e h a d r e l e a s e d th e r e p o r t o n t h e S A B C ,
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . N o w w e g o in g t o t a lk a b o u t t h a t j u s t
n o w. B u t I w o u l d l ik e y o u t o t e ll t h e C h a ir p e r s o n a s to h o w w e r e y o u
t o l d t h a t t h i s p r o g r a m is g o i n g t o c o m e t o a n e n d a n d w h a t t h e r e a s o n s
w e r e f o r p u t ti n g i t – f o r h a lt i n g t h a t p r o g r a m ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

I w a s t o l d i n 2 0 1 8 b y Ms M a s e k o , M s N o th a n d o

M a s e k o th a t th e p r o g r a m w o u ld n o t c o n t in u e .
request reasons behind that.

T h e n I p r o c e e d e d to

She did not have any reasons so I in

upward referral…
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y d id y o u s a y s h e d id n o t g iv e y o u r e a s o n s
M R M WA B A P H I R I: S h e d id n o t g i v e m e r e a s o n s .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M WA B A P H IR I :

B u t n e v e r t h e l e s s b e c a u s e o f u p w a r d r e fe r r a l I

d e c i d e d t o t a k e i t to t h e a c t in g – I t h o u g h t [ in d i s ti n c t ] it w a s th e a c t in g
C E O . S h e c a ll e d f o r a – s o r r y s h e d i d n o t c a l l f o r a m e e ti n g I c a n n o t
r e m e m b e r w h a t h a p p e n e d . I t h in k w e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u s a y a c ti n g C O O o r a c ti n g C E O ?

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M R M WA B A P H I R I: A c t in g C E O .
CHAIRPERSON: CEO?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay in 2018?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h o w a s t h e a c t in g C E O a t t h e t i m e ?
M R M WA B A P H IR I: I t w a s M s N o m – s o r r y I f o r g e t – h e r s e c o n d n a m e
Nomsa.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh you forget the surname?
10

M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h e s e c o n d n a m e I f o r g e t it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o th a t i s f in e I a m s u r e w e w i ll fi n d o u t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y y o u m a y c o n t i n u e .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: J a a t t h e m e e t i n g w e h e a r d – I t h i n k w e d is c u s s e d
t h is is s u e . S h e t h o u g h t i t n e e d e d t o b e r e s o lv e d b e t w e e n m e a n d t h e
COO. The COO.
CHAIRPERSON: The COO?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h e C O O t h e n w a s Mr M a r o l e n g , C h r i s M a r o l e n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C h r i s M a l u l e k a ? O k a y.

20

M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s C h a ir. H e r d ir e c ti v e w a s n e v e r e n f o r c e d . H e
n e v e r c a m e b a c k t o m e d e s p i t e my q u e r i e s o n w h e t h e r w e w o u ld g o
a h e a d a n d d o w h a t t h e C E O h a d r e q u e s te d o f u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w o u l d ta k e t h e w h o l e p r o c e s s f o r w a r d ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I a m s o r r y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h s o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e y o u g o f o r – f o r w a r d l e t u s g o b a c k t o th e

a c t u a l p r o g r a m . A r e y o u s a y i n g t h a t i ts n a t u r e w a s th a t y o u w o u l d l o o k
f o r p e o p l e w h o a r e k n o w le d g e a b l e i n d i ff e r e n t s e c t o r s ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ex a c t ly C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d b r i n g t h e m i n a n d i n t e r v ie w th e m ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: A n d in t e r v i e w t h e m .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I f i t w a s s o m e th i n g t h a t n e e d e d H o m e A ff a ir s y o u
m i g h t b r i n g t h e M i n i s t e r o f H o m e A ff a ir s . I f i t w a s s o m e t h i n g r e la t in g t o
e n e r g y y o u m i g h t b r i n g i n t h e M i n i s te r o f E n e r g y a n d m a y b e y o u m ig h t
b r i n g in a n e x p e r t o n e n e r g y, th a t k i n d o f t h i n g .

T h a t is w h a t is w a s

d e a li n g w it h .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Pr e c is e l y C h a ir. Pr e c i s e l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e n – a n d t h e n y o u w o u l d a s k q u e s t io n s a n d

t h e r e w o u ld b e a n s w e r s a n d s o o n ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ex a c t ly C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t it w a s l ik e ?
20

M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h a t is w h a t i t w a s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t t h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. W h a t w a s t h e fr e q u e n c y
o k f th is p r o g r a m , Q u e s ti o n Ti m e ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I :

It w a s a d a i ly p r o g r a m . Fr o m M o n d a y t o Fr id a y

in it i a l ly – s o r r y M o n d a y t o S a t u r d a y i n i t ia lly t h e n w e c h a n g e d i t s o m e

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t w o y e a r s in t o th e o p e r a ti o n s o f S A B C N e w s in t o a f o u r d a y p r o g r a m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d w h a t ti m e d u r i n g t h e d a y ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

W h a t I w o u ld c a ll 1 7 :3 0 i s w h a t t i m e n o w – h a l f

p a s t f iv e p m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : H a l f p a s t f iv e p m . S o y o u w a l k in t o y o u r
w o r k e s t a b li s h m e n t o n e d a y a n d y o u a r e t o l d th a t it is n o t g o in g t o –
y o u r p r o g r a m h a s c o m e to a n e n d ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: I w a s g iv e n s o m e 3 0 d a y s ’ n o t ic e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – o h t h e r e w o u ld b e s o m e n o ti c e ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I : Ye s M s M a s e k o s e n t m e a m e m o r a n d u m w h i c h s a id
n e x t – fr o m n e x t m o n t h t h is p r o g r a m w ill n o t b e o n a ir.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l b e f o r e – b e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d . Yo u s a id t h a t y o u
w e r e b r in g i n g i n t o t h e p r o g r a m p e o p l e t h a t t h e m a n a g e m e n t d i d n o t
lik e ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: W h ic h n e w s m a n a g e m e n t d i d n o t l ik e .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h y d id y o u b r in g o n l y p e o p l e t h a t t h e m a n a g e m e n t

d i d n o t l ik e ?
20

M R M WA B A P H I R I:

M a y b e I m a d e a s w e e p in g s t a t e m e n t .

It is not

a l w a y s b u t e v e r y b o d y th a t w e b r o u g h t i n w a s n o t l ik e d . B u t w e h a d th e
a u d a c it y fo r l a c k o f a b e t t e r w o r d to b r in g i n e v e n th e p e o p le t h a t
m a n a g e m e n t d id n o t w a n t b e c a u s e w e f e l t t h e y w e r e d r iv in g th e n e w s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t w e r e y o u b r in g in g in a m i x o f p e o p le s o t h e r e

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
w o u ld – t h e r e w e r e s o m e th a t m a n a g e m e n t li k e d o r s h o u l d h a v e lik e d
a n d t h e r e w e r e s o m e th a t th e y d id n o t l ik e a n d m a y b e s h o u ld n o t h a v e
n o t lik e d .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: D e fi n i te ly s o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

The

n a m e o f t h e p e r s o n th a t y o u fo r g o t j u s t t o r e m i n d y o u is th a t M s N o m s a
P h il is o ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: P h i li s o y e s .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Thank you.

C o u ld y o u t h e n t e ll t h e

C h a ir p e r s o n a b o u t th e i n c i d e n t th e n i n y o u r d r i v e t h e n t o b r i n g t h e
p e o p l e o n t o y o u r p r o g r a m ? Yo u h a v e m e n ti o n e d t h a t a f t e r t h e r e l e a s e
b y t h e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r o f th e – o f h e r r e p o r t g o v e r n a n c e – w h e n
g o v e r n a n c e a n d e ff o r ts f a i l e d i n 2 0 1 4 – F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 4 . S o y o u s a y y o u
d e c i d e d t h a t y o u w e r e g o in g to b r in g h e r t o y o u r s h o w ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s C h a ir.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O r in v i t e h e r t o y o u r s h o w ?
20

M R M WA B A P H I R I:

Ye s C h a ir.

A t o u r d a i ly e d i t o r ia l m e e ti n g w e

d e c i d e d – m y t e a m d e c i d e d w e n e e d e d t o h a v e M s M a d o n s e la e v e n i f
s h e w a s g i v i n g a r e p o r t t h a t w a s q u i t e n e g a tiv e fo r t h e S A B C .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s t h i s n o w b e tw e e n t h e d a t e w h e n y o u r e c e iv e d t h e
n o t ic e t o s a y y o u r p r o g r a m w ill c o m e t o a n e n d i n 3 0 d a y s ’ ti m e

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M R M WA B A P H I R I: N o t h is is a c tu a lly b e f o r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h is is b e f o r e o k a y. O k a y a l r i g h t .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h i s is b e f o r e . Th is is i n 2 0 1 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. O k a y. Ms N o r m a n
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s M r C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k h e h a d n o t fi n is h e d s a y i n g w h a t h a p p e n e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e a n s w e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t m a y b e t h a t y o u m ig h t w is h to f in is h e v e r y th i n g
t h a t h a p p e n e d b e fo r e .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s M r C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h b e f o r e t h e te r m in a ti o n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b e c a u s e …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e r e w a s th e q u e s t i o n o f t h e p r o c e s s n o t b e in g

t a k e n f o r w a r d i n te r ms o f w h ic h h e a n d th e C O O w e r e s u p p o s e d t o t a lk
f u r th e r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To m e e t y e s a n d d e a l w i th i t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To m e e t a n d s o o n .
20

A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a ir.

M a y b e w e c o u ld

fi n i s h t h a t s o t h a t I d o n o t f o r g e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Thank you.

Yo u s a y t h e n t h e C E O h a d

g iv e n s o r t o f a d ir e c ti o n t h a t y o u h a d to m e e t ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Mr M a r o le n g h a d to m e e t m e .

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A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s M r M a r o l e n g .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: To r e s o l v e t h i s is s u e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u h a d t o m e e t a n d r e s o l v e t h e is s u e b u t
that never happened?
M R M WA B A P H I R I :

T h a t n e v e r h a p p e n e d u p to t o d a y i t h a s n o t

happened.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

S o I w o u l d i m a g in e t h e n w h e n M r

M a r o le n g w a s n o t g e tt i n g b a c k t o y o u y o u w o u ld h a v e g o n e b a c k t o th e
C E O a n d s a y C E O n o t h in g is h a p p e n in g , w h a t is h a p p e n i n g w i t h m y
10

program?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: I in d e e d w e n t b a c k t o t h e a c t i n g C E O . I s t il l d i d
not receive any response.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e d i d n o t g iv e y o u a n y r e s p o n s e ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: I w a s n o t g i v e n a n y r e s p o n s e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h b u t d id y o u s p e a k t o h e r ?

She – did she just

s t a n d t h e r e a n d n o t s a y a n y th i n g o r d id y o u ju s t s e n d s o m e t h in g in
w r i t in g ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: I c o m m u n i c a t e d i n w r i ti n g .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I n w r i ti n g o h o k a y.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: And you did not get any response?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: I d id n o t g e t a n y r e s p o n s e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

S o th e n d u r i n g t h a t 3 0 d a y p e r i o d

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
t h a t y o u – o f n o tic e t h a t w a s g i v e n t o y o u th e n a s a p e r s o n w h o w a s
p r o d u c in g t h is p r o g r a m I w o u l d i m a g i n e th a t w o u l d b e th e ti m e f o r y o u
t o b e t e ll i n g y o u r li s t e n e r s a n d y o u r v i e w e r s t h a t t h is i s g o in g t o c o m e
t o a n e n d , is t h a t w h a t y o u d i d d u r i n g t h a t p e r i o d ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I :

I m u s t a d m it I w a s d e fi a n t a n d I t h o u g h t

a n n o u n c i n g t o m y a u d i e n c e t h a t w e a r e g o i n g o ff a ir I w o u l d b e
a g r e e i n g t h a t – a g r e e i n g to t h e w r o n g d e c i s io n th a t t h e p r o g r a m s h o u l d
g o o ff a ir. I h a d n o t a g r e e d . I f t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o g iv e m e a r a ti o n a l e
o f s o m e k in d I w o u l d p r o b a b l y h a v e g o n e a n d t o l d m y a u d i e n c e t h a t y e s
10

t h e p r o g r a m is c o m i n g t o a n e n d b u t t h e y d id n o t c o m e b a c k t o m e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W a s t h i s …
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t I a m s o r r y.

B u t a c t u a ll y a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e

p o s i ti o n fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e s a id a l t h o u g h y o u h a d b e e n g i v e n n o t ic e
t h a t a d e c is io n h a d b e e n t a k e n t h a t t h e p r o g r a m w o u l d c o m e to a n e n d
in 3 0 d a y s ’ ti m e o r s o .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

There had been subsequent developments namely

y o u r m e e ti n g w i t h t h e a c t i n g C E O a n d i n te r ms o f t h a t m e e ti n g t h e
p r o c e s s w a s s t il l g o i n g to g o fo r w a r d . Yo u a n d t h e C E O w e r e s t il l g o i n g
20

to meet?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ve r y tr u e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

And I would imagine that it would be reasonable to

t h i n k th a t u n ti l th a t p r o c e s s h a d b e e n t a k e n
M R M WA B A P H I R I: I g e t t h e f i n a l a n s w e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

F o r w a r d y o u c o u l d n o t t a k e t h a t n o t ic e to r e m a i n

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
valid.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ve r y tr u e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ve r y tr u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e y o u d i d n o t k n o w w h a t w o u ld b e t h e o u t c o m e
o f y o u r f u r th e r c o n s u l t m e e ti n g s w i th t h e C O O ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h a t is tr u e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

I t c o u l d r e s u l t i n y o u a g r e e i n g th a t t h e p r o g r a m

should come to an end.
10

M R M WA B A P H I R I: S h o u ld g o o ff a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r y o u c o u l d p e r s u a d e t h e C O O t h a t th e r e i s v a lu e i n
t h e p r o g r a m c o n t in u i n g .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: In t h e p r o g r a m g o in g a h e a d . T h a t is tr u e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . H o w w a s t h e p o p u l a r i ty o f
t h is p r o g r a m ?
M R M WA B A P H IR I: T h is w a s o n e o f t h e m o s t p o p u la r p r o g r a ms o n th e
c h a n n e l . T h e m a r k e ti n g d e p a r t m e n t fo r t h e S A B C w o u l d p r o b a b ly g iv e
y o u t h e d a t a – t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t th e y w e r e o f te n g iv in g a ll o f u s . T h e y

20

s a i d i t w a s t h e b e s t p e r fo r mi n g p r o g r a m i n t h e a ft e r n o o n s e c ti o n o f t h e
b r o a d c a s t . S o o n o n e d a y w h e n t h is m a r k e ti n g p r o fe s s i o n a l w a s g iv i n g
u s th is t a lk h e w a s p u z z l e d a t t h e f a c t th a t i t h a d b e e n p u l l e d o ff a ir.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : F r o m w h a t t i m e to w h a t t i m e d i d y o u u s e d t o h a v e t h e
program?

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Fr o m h a l f p a s t fi v e in t h e a ft e r n o o n t o s ix o ’ c l o c k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m o k a y. S o i t w a s t h ir t y m i n u t e s ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: 3 0 m i n u t e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t v e r y p o p u la r ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: B u t v e r y, v e r y p o p u l a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d a c c o r d i n g to p a r a g r a p h 5 o f y o u r

s t a te m e n t i t la s t f o r a l m o s t s ix y e a r s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s C h a ir.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Th a n k y o u . T h e n l e t u s g o b a c k t h e n
t o t h e q u e s ti o n t h a t – th e m a t t e r t h a t y o u w e r e d e a li n g w i th t h e n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h b u t d i d i t e n d o r d i d i t n o t e n d w h e n t h e t h ir ty

d a y s w a s u p ? L e t u s c o m p l e t e th a t .
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

Ye s i t e n d e d . It w a s – it w a s j u s t p u l le d o ff a i r I

w o u ld s a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h o u t a n y f u r th e r d i s c u s s i o n ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: W i th o u t a n y f u r t h e r d is c u s s i o n . S o m u c h s o t h a t I
w a s f o r c e d t o ta k e t h e i s s u e t o t h e J o e Tl o lo C o m m is s i o n – e d i t o r ia l
c o m m i s s io n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: It f e a t u r e s in t h a t r e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

B u t e v e n th e n I a m s t il l a w a it i n g s o m e k in d o f

a c ti o n a f t e r t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.

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A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n . A n d th e n le t u s
t a lk a b o u t t h e n t h e r e p o r t c o m e s o u t o n g o v e r n a n c e a n d e th ic s f a il a n d
y o u d e c id e t h a t y o u w o u l d w a n t t o i n v i te …
M R M WA B A P H I R I: M s M a d o n s e l a .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ms Madonssela.

Ms Madonsela to your

s h o w y e s . Ta k e u s t h r o u g h t h a t p r o c e s s . W h a t d i d y o u d o ? A n d t h e n
what happened?
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

J a th e r e w a s a v e r y, v e r y s t if li n g a t m o s p h e r e a t

the SABC then. We had a…
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th is w a s w h i c h y e a r n o w ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: 2 0 1 4 .
CHAIRPERSON: 2014?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M WA B A P H IR I: 2 0 1 4 . S o m u c h s o t h a t e v e n t h e b r i n g i n g – s o r r y
t h e i n v i ti n g o f M s M a d o n s e la w a s d o n e d is c r e e tl y. W e d id n o t w a n t t h e
t o p m a n a g e m e n t t o b e a w a r e o f w h o m w e a r e – w e w e r e b r in g in g in .
B u t e v e n t h e n w e s ti ll k n e w th a t w e c o u ld – s o r r y I f o r g e t o n e t h i n g . A t
t h e ti m e t h e p r o g r a m w a s a p r e - r e c o r d e d p r o g r a m m e a n in g w e w o u ld

20

r e c o r d in th e m o r n i n g a n d th e n p u t i t o n a ir la t e r. S o w h e n w e i n v i t e d
M s M a d o n s e l a w e h a d to m a k e s u r e t h a t b e tw e e n th e ti m e o f r e c o r d i n g
a n d t h e t i m e o f a i r i n g n o b o d y in t e r f e r e d w it h w h a t e v e r p r o d u c t w e h a d .
S o w e w e n t a b o u t t h i s b y d o in g e v e r y th in g v e r y, v e r y s e c r e t ly. In v i t e d
– w e i n v i te h e r, s h e c o m e s , s o r r y a g a i n I f o r g o t s o m e t h i n g . W e h a d a
s tr a t e g y in w h ic h w e f ir s t o f a ll i n f o r m e d o u r c o l le a g u e s i n th e

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“c o ll e a g u e s ” i n th e n e w s m e d ia in t h e [i n d is t in c t] m e d ia t h a t w e w e r e
g o i n g t o h a v e M s M a d o n s e l a o n o u r p r o g r a m . W e w e r e g o in g t o r e c o r d
h e r a t a c e r t a in t i m e . T h is e n s u r e d t h a t t h e y w o u ld b r in g in a c a m e r a
p e r s o n o f s o m e k in d w h o w o u l d r e c o r d t h e f a c t t h a t w e h a d t a lk s t o M s
M a d o n s e la .

I f s h e d o e s n o t g o o n a i r t h e y w o u l d s t il l h a v e t h e

recording.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h e r e w o u ld b e p r o o f.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s . S o t h a t is w h a t h a p p e n e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

M R M WA B A P H I R I :

W e r e c o r d e d M s M a d o n s e la b u t w e h i d t h e t a p e

t h a t – t h e t a p e is c a l le d t h e F X t a p e t h a t i s t h e fi n a l t a p e t h a t w e h a v e
t o – s u p p o s e d t o t a k e t o F C C . F C C is s u p p o s e d to b e t h e f in a l c o n tr o l
c e n tr e . T h e s e a r e t h e p e o p le w h o r e c e iv e a p r o d u c t a n d t h e n p u t i t o n
a ir f o r t h e r e s t o f t h e p u b l ic t o v i e w. W e h i d t h a t t a p e f r o m e v e r y b o d y.
W e w a n te d t o g i v e – t o h a n d i t i n o n ly a t a b o u t f iv e o ’c l o c k t h i r t y
m i n u t e s b e f o r e g o i n g o n a ir.

A n d I t h i n k t h a t p l a n w o r k e d q u i t e w e ll

b e c a u s e i f th e r e w a s a n y b o d y l o o k i n g fo r i t th e y c o u ld n o t h a v e s e e n
the tape anywhere.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

B u t t h e n b e fo r e y o u o n h o w w o u l d y o u

h i d e h e r w i t h c o m i n g i n to t h e s t u d i o ? H o w d i d y o u m a n a g e th a t ?
M R M WA B A P H IR I: O k a y w h a t w e d i d in t h is c a s e is th e t e a m g a v e th e
t a p e to m e t o k e e p .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H IR I:

S o I w a s h o l d i n g o n t o t h e ta p e a n d th is is a b i t

e m b a r r a s s in g I r a n a w a y fr o m t h e o ff ic e . I h a d t o r u n a w a y b e c a u s e I

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
w a s a n ti c i p a t i n g q u e r i e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: B u t w h e r e i s th is t a p e . S o I h a d to r u n a w a y u n t il
fi v e o ’ c l o c k t h a t is w h e n I c a m e b a c k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: A n d t h e n h a n d e d i t o v e r to F C C .
CHAIRPERSON: But I think she was – she was asking before that what
y o u h a v e s a id is i m p o r t a n t b u t I th i n k s h e w a s a s k i n g h o w y o u m a n a g e d
10

t o h id e M s M a d o n s e l a h e r s e l f w h e n s h e c a m e t o t h e S A B C ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I : O h I s e e . N o I w o u l d n o t a c t u a ll y p u t it in th o s e
w o r d s . W e d id n o t h i d e h e r a s s u c h . S h e h a d c o m e – s h e h a d c o m e
e a r l ie r f o r a p r o g r a m c a l le d N e w s A t E i g h t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: It is a r a d i o p r o g r a m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H IR I:

N o w s h e d id n o t g o o n a ir.

I do not know what

h a p p e n e d t h e r e I a m o n t h e T V s id e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

On the – but we heard rumours that her show

w h ic h w a s s u p p o s e d t o h a v e b e e n d o n e e a r l i e r h a d b e e n c a n c e l le d s o
n o w my te a m w a s g e t t in g v e r y t e n s e .

I f h e r e a r l ie r r a d i o s h o w s w e r e

b e i n g c a n c e ll e d w h a t w o u l d h a p p e n t o u s ? A n d i n d e e d e v e n b e f o r e t h a t
a g a in o n e o f m y t e a m m e m b e r s c a m e a n d t o l d m e s h e i s s u p p o s e d to

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b e o n M o r n i n g L iv e b u t s h e h a s b e e n c a n c e l le d a g a in . W e n e v e r th e l e s s
d e c i d e d w e j u s t h a d t o g o a h e a d w i th w h a t e v e r w e a r e d o in g . W e k n e w
w e w e r e g o i n g t o b e in b i g p r o b le m s b u t w e d e c id e d l e t u s g o a h e a d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e d a y w h e n s h e w a s g o i n g to h a v e t h i s i n te r v i e w
w i t h y o u a n d w h ic h w a s g o i n g to b e r e c o r d e d h a p p e n e d to b e th e d a y
w h e n s h e w a s g o in g t o b e a t S A B C a n y w a y fo r o t h e r p r o g r a ms ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Fo r o t h e r p r o g r a ms y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . A n d th e d a t e is w h a t y o u
10

h a v e in p a r a g r a p h 9 b e in g t h e 1 8 t h – Tu e s d a y 1 8 t h F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 4 ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: 1 8 t h Fe b r u a r y y e s if I r e c a l l , y e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is t h e d a t e ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h a t w a s th e d a t e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A lr ig h t a n d t h e n – s o m a y b e I s h o u l d j u s t
t a k e y o u t o – t h e n y o u w i ll t e l l m e i f y o u t h i n k t h a t t h e r e f e r e n c e t o th is
a r ti c l e i s p r e m a tu r e b u t I t h i n k i t r e l a t e s t o s o m e o f h e r i n v i t a ti o n s t h a t
w e r e n o w d e c l i n e d i n th e s e n s e th a t t h e y w e r e n o t g o i n g o n .

If y o u

c o u l d t u r n to p a g e 9 o f t h a t – o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t . Yo u w ill s e e t h e r e i s
t w o p a g e . P a g e 8 a n d t h e n t h e r e is p a g e 9 .
20

M R M WA B A P H I R I: P a g e 9 T h u li in d u c k .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W h a t d o e s i t s a y.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h u li in d u c k o v e r c a n c e l l e d in t e r v i e w.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d w h e n y o u s a id s o m e o f h e r

in t e r v ie w s w e r e c a n c e ll e d a r e y o u r e la t in g t o t h i s ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: To t h is in t e r v i e w.

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A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To t h i s i n te r v i e w y e s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: J a t h is i s t h e r a d i o i n t e r v ie w.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: A n d I a m s u r e if y o u c a n s e e t h e r e is a p ic tu r e o f
T h u li a n d M p h o S e d u m a a p r e s e n te r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: H e w a s t h e p r e s e n t e r o f t h i s p r o g r a m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d t h e n …
M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h e y a r e c o m i n g – e m e r g i n g fr o m t h e S A B C >
10

A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Thank you.

And then if you go to that

p a g e , p a g e 9 le t u s ju s t d e a l w i t h th a t a n d t h e n w e k n o w – th e n w e
m o v e o n w e w i ll n o t h a v e t o c o m e b a c k t o i t . I f y o u g o b a c k t o p a g e 9
y o u w i ll s e e t h e d a t e th e r e is t h e S o w e t a n a r t ic le d a te 1 9 F e b r u a r y
2014 and then it says:
“ T h e l a s t m i n u te c a n c e ll a ti o n o f a s c h e d u l e d S A B C
r a d i o i n te r v i e w w i th P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r T h u li M a d o n s e la
y e s t e r d a y is s h r o u d e d i n m y s te r y. ”
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o t h is is w h a t y o u w e r e t a l k i n g a b o u t .
20

M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s C h a ir t h a t is w h a t I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
show was cancelled?

Ye s . T h e n d i d y o u g e t to k n o w w h y t h is

Even if it was just after you had now recorded

her?
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

N o t f o r m a l ly. A l l I k n e w w a s t h a t b e c a u s e o f th e

f a c t t h a t s h e – s h e h a d a r e p o r t t h a t w a s n e g a t iv e a b o u t o u r C O O

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
d e f in i te ly s h e w o u l d n o t b e w e lc o m e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d …
M R M WA B A P H IR I: B u t I t h i n k t h e S A B C d i d i s s u e t h e ir o w n r e a s o n i n g
b e h in d – th e y c l a i m e d s o m e t h i n g o f t h e s o r t t h a t s h e w a s n o t i n v i te d
p r o p e r ly. I a m n o t o n r e c o r d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a l r i g h t . B u t th e r e i s s o m e r e a s o n th a t
is – w e ll t h is is – I t h i n k th is – t h e s p o k e s w o m a n fo r t h e P u b l ic
Protector
“ W e w e r e n o t a w a r e th a t t h e i n t e r v ie w w a s c a n c e ll e d
10

u n t il

we

got

here.

He

said

Mandonsela

s p o k e s w o m a n G a le l e M a s e b i o u t s i d e t h e s tu d i o s
were not given a reason why it was cancelled.”
M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h a t is tr u e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is w h a t i s c o n ta i n e d i n th a t y e s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h a t is tr u e C h a ir.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . A n d th e n s a i d th e n t h e y
ju s t g a v e u s a n a p o l o g y a n d t h a t w a s it .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h a t is tr u e C h a ir.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

recording.

Thank you.

So going back then to your

S o t h e n y o u s a y y o u r a n a w a y a n d t h e n y o u r p r o g r a m is

g o i n g t o a ir a t fi v e o ’ c l o c k s o y o u c a m e b a c k a t fiv e o ’c l o c k a n d …
M R M WA B A P H I R I: I c a m e b a c k a t fiv e o ’ c lo c k .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d y o u p la y e d ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: J a .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e n i t w e n t o n a ir.

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M R M WA B A P H I R I: J a t h e n i t w e n t o n a ir.
ADV

TH A N D I

NORMAN

SC:

Okay

and

then

what

were

th e

c o n s e q u e n c e s o f y o u h a v in g d o n e th a t? W h a t h a p p e n e d ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I :

M y li n e m a n a g e r M r T h e m b a M t h e m b o c a ll e d m e

a n d – w e l l h e a s k e d f o r t h e p r o fe s s i o n a l r e a s o n s b e h i n d m e b r i n g i n g i n
M s M a d o n s e l a . I e x p l a i n e d e x a c t ly th a t s h e i s t h e k in d o f p e r s o n t h is
p r o g r a m h a d b e e n m a d e f o r. S h e is m a k i n g n e w s a t t h e m o m e n t. A n d
p e o p l e w a n t t o fi n d o u t m o r e a b o u t w h a te v e r r e p o r ts s h e h a s g i v e n . M r
M t h e m b o w a s to m e l o o k e d q u i te u n d e r s t a n d in g .
10

H e s a id i t i s a lr i g h t

b u t u n f o r t u n a t e ly I h a v e to g o a n d e x p l a in th is a t s o m e m e e ti n g . T h a t
is w h a t h e t o l d m e .

M y li n e m a n a g e r M r T h e m b a M t h e m b o c a ll e d m e

a n d – w e l l h e a s k e d f o r t h e p r o fe s s i o n a l r e a s o n s b e h i n d m e b r i n g i n g i n
M s M a d o n s e l a . I e x p l a i n e d e x a c t ly th a t s h e i s t h e k in d o f p e r s o n t h is
p r o g r a m h a d b e e n m a d e f o r. S h e is m a k i n g n e w s a t t h e m o m e n t. A n d
p e o p l e w a n t t o fi n d o u t m o r e a b o u t w h a te v e r r e p o r ts s h e h a s g i v e n . M r
M t h e m b o w a s to m e l o o k e d q u i te u n d e r s t a n d in g .

H e s a id i t i s a lr i g h t

b u t u n f o r t u n a t e ly I h a v e to g o a n d e x p l a in th is a t s o m e m e e ti n g . T h a t
is w h a t h e to ld m e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s ; a n d - a n d …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y. Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

I f y o u w a n t e d t o in v i t e s o m e b o d y t o c o m e a n d

p a r t ic ip a t e i n y o u r p r o g r a m o r t o b e r e c o r d e d fo r y o u r p r o g r a m w e r e
y o u r e q u i r e d to n o ti fy a n y b o d y b e f o r e h a n d t h a t t h is i s t h e p e r s o n y o u
a r e i n v i ti n g f o r t h a t d a y a n d t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o a p p r o v e o r n o t

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a p p r o v e o r w h e r e y o u fr e e t o i n v i te w h o e v e r y o u t h o u g h t w o u l d b e g o o d
for your program?
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

A c c o r d i n g to S A B C E d i to r i a l P o li c y I a m n o t

s u p p o s e d to b u t w e d o h a v e - w e d o h a v e a d ia r y m e e ti n g a t w h ic h w e
c a l l a n “ i d e a ” is h a n d e d o v e r a n d y o u e x p l a i n t o t h is - to th e m e e t i n g
who you are going - who you are going to invite.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d - a n d it i s a t t h a t m e e ti n g t h a t o t h e r p e o p l e m i g h t
g e t t o k n o w w h a t y o u r p l a n s a r e i n t e r m s o f i n v it i n g a n y b o d y ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s . I t is a t th a t m e e t in g .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e y c a n e x p r e s s t h e ir v i e w s i f t h e y w a n t t o b u t
n o r m a l ly y o u d e c id e ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

N o r m a lly j a b e c a u s e th e m a n a g e r o f - o f t h e

p r o d u c t o r th e p r o g r a m …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: D e c i d e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

T h e y c o u l d g iv e y o u a d v ic e w h ic h - w h ic h mi g h t

m a k e y o u t h in k t w ic e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R M WA B A P H I R I: A n d y o u m a y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: D e c i d e n o t t o g o a h e a d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t is n o t h in g m o r e th a n a d v i c e ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: N o t h i n g m o r e t h a n a d v ic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

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A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n . S o
t h a t w a s th e f ir s t i n c i d e n t th a t y o u h a d m e n ti o n e d - y o u m e n ti o n e d a n d
t h e n t h e s e c o n d i n c i d e n t y o u d e a l w i th it i n p a r a g r a p h 1 4 a n d y o u
e n t i tl e t h a t p a r a g r a p h b y s a y i n g :
“ C h a n g e s t o E d it o r ia l P o l ic y 2 0 1 4 E le c ti o n s . ”
C o u ld y o u t h e n t e l l t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t th a t - w h a t is t h a t
in c i d e n t a ll a b o u t ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

Th is i n c id e n t in v o l v e d M r J u l iu s M a l e m a .

Th e

le a d e r o f th e Ec o n o m ic Fr e e d o m Fr o n t . H e h a d j u s t r e l e a s e d h is …
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y. E c o n o m ic Fr e e d o m F i g h t e r s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ec o n o m ic Fr e e d o m Fi g h t e r s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h , o k a y.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h e p a r t - i t is a p o li t i c a l p a r ty.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

N o , n o I t h o u g h t y o u s a i d fr o n t, o k a y.

Maybe I miss …
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Is i t E c o n o m ic Fr e e d o m F r o n t o r … ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o . Tw ic e y o u s a i d f ig h t e r s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: It is fi g h t e r s ?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Mr M a le m a h a d ju s t r e l e a s e d h i s p a r ty e l e c ti o n li s t
o n M a r c h , th e 1 7 t h . My te a m a g a in f e l t t h a t h e w a s t h e r ig h t p e r s o n t o
bring to our program …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: B u t lik e I - li k e I h a v e s a i d t h e a t m o s p h e r e i n t h e

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
S A B C - th is i s a m o n t h l a t e r a f te r t h e - a f t e r M s M a d o n s e l a ’s c a s e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

B r i n g i n g h i m in w a s g o i n g t o b e v e r y d i ff ic u l t .

W h a t - i n d e e d w h e n h e c a m e in u n f o r tu n a t e ly b y s o m e c o in c i d e n c e h e
w a s c o m i n g in a s o u r G E N e w s w a s g o i n g o u t f o r a - fo r t h e w o r k s h o p
t h a t m y c o l le a g u e Kr iv a n i w a s e a r li e r ta lk i n g a b o u t . S o t h e y w e r e g o i n g
t o - t o s o m e h o t e l in E a s t R a n d to d i s c u s s e l e c ti o n c o v e r a g e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d w h o is t h e G E N e w s ?

The name of

the GE News?
10

M R M WA B A P H I R I: Mr J i m i M a t th e w s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Mr Jimi Matthews yes.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Mr J i m i M a t th e w s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

I h e a r th a t - I w a s n o t - I d o n o t k n o w w h a t

h a p p e n e d b u t I h e a r t h a t i m m e d i a t e ly h e s a w - h e s a w M a l e m a g o i n g i n
h e l o o k e d f o r s o m e b o d y t o fo ll o w h i m a n d g o a n d s to p w h a t e v e r h e w a s
doing.

S o t h is h a p p e n e d t o b e M r K w e s i S ik o s a n a m y c o l l e a g u e .

He

w a s a ls o a n E x e c u t iv e P r o d u c e r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
20

M R M WA B A P H I R I: M r K w e s i S ik o s a n a w e n t a f t e r M r M a l e m a to g o a n d
s t o p w h a te v e r i n te r v i e w h e w a s d o i n g b u t b e f o r e th a t a n o t h e r c o l le a g u e
c a l l e d Vi n c e n t M p h o n d e s i c a m e t o m y o ff ic e a n d ti p p e d m e o ff a n d s a i d
y o u r p r o g r a m is a b o u t t o b e - to b e s t o p p e d .

G o t o t h e s tu d io r ig h t

n o w. S o I r a n t o th e s t u d i o a n d i n d e e d I f o u n d M r S ik o s a n a b u s y t e l li n g
m y t e a m t o s to p - t o h a l t th e r e c o r d i n g s .

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
I t o l d M r Si k o s a n a I w o u ld n o t - m y r e p o r ti n g l in e h a d n o th i n g
t o d o w i t h h i m b u t n e v e r t h e l e s s h e in s is t e d th a t h e - I s h o u l d n o t h a v e
a q u a r r e l w i th h i m . I t is n o t h i m t o b l a m e . H e w a s o n ly p a s s i n g o n a
m e s s a g e f r o m M r M a t th e w s .

I r e t o r t e d t h a t h is m e s s a g e h a d b e e n

r e c e i v e d b u t w e w e r e g o in g a h e a d w it h o u r r e c o r d i n g . I h a d a s k e d h i m
to leave the studio.
W e - w e c o n t i n u e d w it h th e r e c o r d i n g a n d w e c o n c l u d e d w i t h
it e v e n t u a l ly …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

M R M WA B A P H I R I: B u t g iv e n t h e s e h a p p e n i n g s w e k n e w w e w o u l d b e
in b i g p r o b l e m s .

S o w e d e c i d e d r a th e r s p o n t a n e o u s l y t o - to - n o t i t

w a s n o t s p o n t a n e o u s ly t h i s . W e d e c i d e d t o h a v e t w o t a p e s - t w o fi n a l
t a p e s a n d t h e n o n e w e h id . I w a s h a v i n g - I w a s h o ld i n g o n t o i t . T h e
o th e r o n e m y t e a m w a s h o l d i n g b e c a u s e w e w e r e n o w a n t ic i p a ti n g
e i t h e r M r M a t t h e w s o r a n y o n e t o c o m e a n d r e q u e s t fo r t h a t t a p e .
B e f o r e w e c o u l d g o n e a r - I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r p r e c is e ly t h e
o r d e r o f e v e n ts b u t M r Te b e le a p p r o a c h e d m y t e a m a n d a s k e d f o r t h e
tape.
CHAIRPERSON: As you suspected would happen?
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: A s I s u s p e c t e d i t w o u l d h a p p e n C h a ir.
u n f o r t u n a t e ly w a s fr o m a d i ff e r e n t u n i t a l l t o g e t h e r.

M r Te b e l e

H e w a s h e a d in g

w h a t w e c a ll t h e S p e c i a l P r o je c ts D e p a r t m e n t . S o I w o n d e r e d w h y h e
h a d t o a s k fo r m y t a p e . N e v e r t h e l e s s b y t h e ti m e I w a s t h i n k in g a b o u t
t h a t M r - Mr Te b e le h a d a l r e a d y b e e n h a n d e d th e ta p e .

Page 121 of 230

I would not

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
have handed it to if …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: If h e h a d c o m e t o m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: B u t h e h a d g o n e b e h i n d m e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: A n d t a lk e d to m y - to m y j u n i o r s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: A n d a s k e d fo r t h e t a p e .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: S o th e y g a v e h i m t h e t a p e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

T h e r e w a s a ls o s o m e c o n tr o v e r s y o v e r t h is .

I

r e m e m b e r M r M a l e m a o n h is p a r t h e t h o u g h t th a t - t h a t p r e r e c o r d i n g
t h e y h a d d o n e o n t h a t p a r ti c u l a r d a y w o u l d g o o n a ir la t e r in t h a t d a y
b u t it w a s n o t s u p p o s e d t o b e t h a t w a y.

It was supposed to be the

f o ll o w i n g d a y. S o w h e n t h e y d i d n o t s e e t h e ir - t h e ir s h o w o n a ir …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h e y c o n c l u d e d th e S A B C h a d …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d c a n c e ll e d i t ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: H a d c a n c e ll e d i t y e s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: B u t i t h a d n o t b e e n c a n c e l le d y e t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: I w a s h o l d i n g o n to t h e ta p e l ik e I s a id .

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e - th e t a p e y o u w e r e h o ld in g o n t o w a s t h e - th e
s e c o n d o n e o r th e a l t e r n a t iv e o n e ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h e s e c o n d o n e y e s b u t i t w a s t h e s a m e t h i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o - b u t …
M R M WA B A P H I R I: ( In t e r v e n e s ) , j a .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t th o s e w h o to o k th e o t h e r o n e m a y h a v e t h o u g h t

t h a t t h e r e w o u l d b e n o - i t w o u ld n o t b e s h o w n b e c a u s e th e y w e r e
having the tape. They did not know about the second tape. Did they?
M R M WA B A P H I R I:
10

N o a p p a r e n tly w h a t h a p p e n e d C h a i r w a s th is .

T h e y - M r - Mr Te b e le v ie w e d t h e t a p e a n d c a m e b a c k t o m y te a m a n d
t o l d t h e m h e w a s - h e w a s o f t h e o p i n i o n i t w a s a lr i g h t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: It c o u l d g o o n a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: B u t h e n e v e r c a m e b a c k a g a i n t o c o m e a n d te ll u s
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: I f w e s h o u l d g o o n a i r o r n o t . I d i d n o t - I d i d n o t
wait for him.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, b u t h e b r o u g h t b a c k t h e t a p e ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: H e b r o u g h t b a c k t h e t a p e to m y te a m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. H m .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h e n e x t d a y b u t …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s ; a n d - a n d in a n y e v e n t f r o m w h a t y o u
a r e t e l li n g u s h e h a d n o b u s i n e s s te ll i n g y o u w h e th e r to a ir o r n o t …

Page 123 of 230

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Tr u e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a t p r o g r a m f r o m - fr o m w h a t y o u h a d

said.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Tr u e C h a ir.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Now - so the …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u w e r e s a y i n g t h a t M r M a l e m a o r t h e E F F w h e n

t h e y d id n o t s e e t h e i n t e r v ie w b e i n g s h o w n o n t h a t - th a t e v e n i n g . Th e y
10

t h o u g h t t h e p r o g r a m o r t h a t in t e r v i e w h a d b e e n c a n c e l le d . I th in k y o u
w e r e a b o u t to s a y s o m e t h in g a b o u t w h e t h e r th e r e i s a n y t h i n g t h e y d i d
about it.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h e y w e n t to - t o th e m e d i a a n d s p r e a d t h e s to r y
t h a t S A B C h a d c a n c e ll e d t h e ir in t e r v i e w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: I t h i n k t h a t w a s t h e s t o r y t h a t w a s tr e n d i n g in - in
those two days.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

I was sort of not very concerned about that

b e c a u s e I k n e w i t w o u ld g o o n a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: In t h e e v e n i n g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 124 of 230

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M R M WA B A P H I R I: N e x t - o n t h e n e x t d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: S o w h e n i t w e n t o n a ir I t h in k t h e y s il e n t ly …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

So then these events - these two

in c i d e n ts th e y m u s t h a v e b e e n t h e i n c i d e n t s t h a t r e a ll y - th a t is th e
r e a s o n w h y y o u f e l t t h a t l o o k y o u n e e d e d t o b r i n g th e s e in c i d e n ts t o t h e
a tt e n ti o n o f t h e C o m m is s i o n b u t w h a t I w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d i s w h a t d o
y o u c o n c lu d e o r w h a t d id y o u c o n c l u d e a t th e t i m e a s t o w h a t w a s
h a p p e n in g w i t h i n t h e S A B C a n d w h y w o u ld y o u r e g a r d t h e s e a s
10

c h a n g e s w i t h i n t h e E d i t o r i a l P o lic y a s y o u h a v e h e a d e d o n e o f t h e
paragraphs?
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

I t w a s n o t v e r y d i ffi c u l t t o c o n c l u d e a l th o u g h w e

m a y b e a c c u s e d o f s p e c u l a ti n g m o r e t h a n n e c e s s a r y b u t o u r C O O a t t h e
- a t t h e t i m e h a d j u s t b e e n I t h i n k c o n fir m e d in t h a t p o s i ti o n .

N o w if

y o u m o n i to r e d th e v ic t o r y o v e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t Mr M o ts o e n e n g ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

O u r C O O fr o m I th i n k p r o d u c e r l e v e l u p t o C O O

p o s i ti o n i t w a s s o m e k i n d o f a m a z i n g t h i n g . H o w a p r o d u c e r w o u l d g o
a n d b e c o m e th e C O O . A p a r t fr o m t h a t g i v e n T h u l i M a d o n s e l a ’s r e p o r t I
20

d o n o t k n o w i f y o u - i f y o u a r e f a m il i a r w i th i t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : F a m il ia r w i th it .
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

Ms Madonsela had stated that our COO had no

M a tr ic a n d t h e n s h e w o n d e r e d w h y - w h a t h e w a s d o i n g i n t h e S A B C .

Page 125 of 230

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
G iv e n a ll th o s e k i n d s - k in d s o f h a p p e n i n g s a r o u n d a t t h a t ti m e y o u
w e r e b o u n d t o b e li e v e t h a t t h i s g e n tl e m a n h a d ti e s w it h v e r y, v e r y
o ffic e s in - in t h e l a n d .
H o w e ls e d id h e m a k e - m a n a g e to g o u p i n s u c h a v e r y, v e r y
- w h a t c a n I s a y f o r la c k o f a b e t te r w o r d . S u c h a li g h t n i n g m a n n e r. A t
t h e s a m e ti m e a s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is - is t h a t v e r y q u i c k ly ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ve r y q u ic k ly y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. H m .
10

M R M WA B A P H I R I: A t t h e s a m e t i m e a s h e g o e s in t o th a t C O O ’s o ffic e
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e d i d i t l ik e l ig h tn i n g ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: L ik e l ig h t n i n g j a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: A s h e a r r iv e s in t h e o ffi c e o f t h e C O O t h e M i n is t e r
o f C o m m u n ic a ti o n

decides

to

change

the

jo b r e s p o n s i b il i ti e s

or

d e s c r ip t io n s o f th e C O O p o s i ti o n s o th a t h e n o w h a s c o n tr o l o v e r t h e
n e w s r o o m . A l l - a ll a l o n g t h e C O O i n t h e S A B C h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h
20

t h e n e w s r o o m b u t s u d d e n ly h e is a p e r s o n w h o g o e s c o n tr o v e r s i a l ly
in t o t h a t p o s it i o n a n d b e c o m e s h e a d o f - o f th e n e w s r o o m .
T h a t le f t m a n y o f t h e - m a n y o f m y c o ll e a g u e s to t h i n k h e h a s
v e r y, v e r y s tr o n g r e la t io n s w i t h s o m e o n e in t h e - i n t h e - h ig h i n th e
p o li t ic a l le a d e r s h i p . S o th a t b e c a m e v e r y s t if li n g i n t h e n e w s r o o m . Yo u
d i d n o t - y o u d id n o t n e e d to b e o n h is w r o n g s i d e .

Page 126 of 230

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w y o u s p o k e a b o u t s o m e b o d y m o v i n g fr o m b e i n g

p r o d u c e r t o C O O . A r e y o u t a l k i n g a b o u t M r M o ts o e n e n g w h e n y o u t a lk
- w h e n y o u s a y t h a t?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: I w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t Mr M o ts o e n e n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . H e - d id h e p r o d u c e r l e v e l t o C O O ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d h o w m a n y l e v e l s a r e th e r e f r o m C O O to C - I
m e a n fr o m p r o d u c e r t o C O O m o r e o r l e s s ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I:
10

T h e r e s h o u l d b e a b o u t s ix - s ix y e s .

Pr o d u c e r,

s e n i o r b u ll e ti n e d i to r, e x e c u t iv e p r o d u c e r t h e r e s h o u l d b e a b o u t s ix .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - s o n o r m a l ly t o g e t t o C O O o n e c o u l d b e e x p e c te d
if y o u g o t th r o u g h t h e r a n k s a s y o u w e r e s a y i n g e a r l ie r o n t o g o a t l e a s t
t h r o u g h m o s t o f th e m ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h r o u g h m o s t o f t h o s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: R a n k s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s C h a ir.

20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Thank you and could just read out what

y o u s a y to t h e C h a ir p e r s o n in p a r a g r a p h 1 5 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t p l e a s e ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: O n - o n p a r a g r a p h 1 5 ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s 1 - 5 . T h a t is a t p a g e 4 .
M R M WA B A P H I R I:
with

“ T h e n e w s r o o m w a s a t t h e ti m e a b u z z

M r M o t s o e n e n g ’s

close

Page 127 of 230

ti e s

w i th

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
P r e s i d e n t J a c o b Z u m a a n d in v i t in g a p e r s o n li k e
M r M a l e m a w h o w a s g o i n g t o b e s e e n a s a n a ffr o n t
t o o u r b o s s ’ r e p u te d r e l a ti o n w i th P r e s i d e n t Zu m a . ”
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Did - did you share these views?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s I d i d .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

T h e n t h o s e a r e th e o n ly in c i d e n ts

t h a t y o u w a n t e d to h i g h l ig h t i n y o u r e v i d e n c e . A m I c o r r e c t ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s . T h e s e a r e t h e o n ly o n e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

M R M WA B A P H I R I: I t h i n k I r a is e d s o m e o th e r i n c i d e n t s w h ic h y o u a r e
a w a r e o f w h e n th e S A B C e i g h t w a s a s k in g f o r a - f o r a r e v i e w.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: M y a ff id a v i ts a r e t h e r e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

O h y o u m e a n in th e - i n t h e - i n

Mr Kolosi (?)?
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

In

the

C o n s ti t u ti o n a l

C o u r t.

No,

in

the

C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h n o , n o . T h o s e a p p li c a t io n s , y e s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A lr i g h t , o k a y. N o , ja - b u t th e n c a n w e c a n I ju s t t a k e y o u t h r o u g h t o w h a t M r M a tt h e w s s a y s i n r e s p o n s e t o
what you say about him?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s C h a ir.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : M r M a t th e w s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e b e fo r e t h a t …

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A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u f o r d o in g a f a v o u r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e b e fo r e t h a t - I a m s o r r y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r P h ir i it i s - i t is r e a ll y s tr a n g e i t s e e m s t o m e t h a t
t h e n e w s r o o m h a d a t s o m e s t a g e t h i s t y p e o f s i t u a t io n t h a t y o u h a v e
d e s c r ib e d .

P a r ti c u la r ly t h e n e w s r o o m o f a p u b l ic b r o a d c a s t e r w h e r e

y o u h a v e to - I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u u s e d t h e w o r d - m a y b e y o u d id n o t
u s e th e w o r d s n e a k i n b u t y o u k n o w b r in g in p e o p le t h a t y o u th i n k h a v e
s o m e t h i n g t o c o n t r i b u t e fo r t h e li s te n e r s o r fo r t h e p u b l ic .
10

Yo u h a v e t o b r in g i n - b r i n g t h e m in s e c r e tly a n d - a n d y o u
h a v e t o r e c o r d - w h e n y o u r e c o r d t h e m y o u - y o u fe a r t h a t s o m e b o d y
fr o m h i g h u p is g o i n g t o c o m e a n d d e m a n d t h e t a p e a n d y o u w il l n e v e r
b e a b l e to h a v e i t o n a ir to t h e e x t e n t th a t y o u h a v e t o - y o u h a d t o
r e s o r t t o a b s e n t in g y o u r s e l f fr o m t h e b u il d i n g fo r - f o r I a s s u m e a
n u m b e r o f h o u r s a n d c o m e b a c k a t 5 o ’ c l o c k j u s t t o m a k e s u r e th a t t h e
t a p e w o u ld n o t b e t a k e n a w a y fr o m y o u a n d t h a t t h e p u b l ic w o u ld b e
a b l e t o - to v i e w - t o w a tc h th e i n t e r v ie w.
I t ju s t s e e m s a v e r y s tr a n g e e n v ir o n m e n t t h a t in - f o r a n y
jo u r n a li s t i n S o u t h A fr ic a i n 2 0 1 4 w i th o u r C o n s t i tu t io n a n d t h e k i n d o f

20

d e m o c r a c y t h a t w e h a v e i t is ju s t - I m e a n a s y o u w e r e t e ll i n g m e i t w a s
lik e c a n t h a t r e a l ly b e S o u t h A f r ic a . C o u l d th a t k in d o f t h i n g h a p p e n ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

Ye s C h a ir.

T h o s e t h i n g s - I w o u l d p r o b a b ly s a y

e v e n w o r s e th in g s h a p p e n e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

If - if I have to somehow refer to the - the other

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
a ffi d a v i ts I a m s u b m i tt e d w i th t h e S A B C e i g h t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

There was

ti m e s -

there

were

times

when

s o m e b o d y w o u l d b e o n a ir …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

A n d th e n y o u g e t a c a l l t h a t h a l t t h a t p r o g r a m -

s t o p t h a t p r o g r a m i m m e d i a te ly.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: S o y o u h a v e t o g o t h e r e a n d …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: D e f e n d y o u r s e l f .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: A s - a s th e p r o g r a m is o n a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

W e l l I a m s u r e t h e r e w il l b e t h o s e i n - in -

in c i d e n ts w il l b e t o l d t o - to m e i n d u e c o u r s e a s w e ll b u t y o u d id s a y
t h e y a r e c o v e r e d i n a n a ffi d a v i t th a t y o u h a d p r e p a r e d . I t is i m p o r t a n t
t h a t o n e g e t s th e f u ll p ic t u r e o f w h a t i s - w h a t - w h a t h a p p e n e d b e c a u s e
o n e d o e s n o t w a n t a s it u a ti o n w h e r e y o u th in k y o u h a v e g o t th e fu ll
p ic t u r e a n d s o m e b o d y e l s e c o m e s a n d s a y s n o , n o th a t is n o t th e f u ll
20

p ic t u r e .
A c tu a l ly w h a t Mr P h ir i w a s t e l li n g y o u w a s j u s t a n e x c e p t io n .
I f y o u - I c a n g i v e y o u a f u l l p ic t u r e a n d w h e n y o u h a v e th e f u l l p ic t u r e
y o u w il l s e e t h a t t h i n g s w e r e n o t a s h e d e s c r i b e d th e m …
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t a l s o w e d o n o t w a n t a s i t u a t io n w h e r e w e m ig h t

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
t h i n k it is a n is o la t e d i n c i d e n t t h a t y o u h a v e t o l d m e a b o u t i f i t w a s n o t
a n i s o la t e d in c i d e n t . If th e r e w e r e m a n y m o r e i t is i m p o r t a n t t h a t o n e
g e t s t h e f u l l p ic t u r e .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u Mr C h a i r m a n . Th a n k y o u . M a y
I ju s t - C h a i r d ir e c t y o u r a tt e n ti o n t o E X H I B I T C C 2 5 w h ic h is t h e
a ffi d a v i t o f M r M a t t h e w s ? Mr P h ir i y o u h a v e it th e r e n e x t t o y o u . I f y o u
could please turn to page 2 of that.
10

M R M WA B A P H I R I: P a g e 2 ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

T h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n .

After

M r M a tt h e w s w a s s e n t a 3 .3 N o ti c e h e r e s p o n d e d a n d t h i s is h i s
r e s p o n s e t o p a r a g r a p h s 1 7 a n d 1 8 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t a n d h e e v e n q u o te s
t h o s e - h e s t a r te d q u o ti n g fr o m p a r a g r a p h 1 6 a n d h e d e a ls w i th t h e
in c i d e n t th a t y o u te s t i fi e d t o r e l a ti n g to M r M a le m a a n d h is r e s p o n s e t o
that - he says - I beg your pardon:
“I

have

been

r e q u e s te d

by

o ffi c i a l s

of

the

C o m m i s s i o n o f I n q u ir y i n to a ll e g a t i o n s o f S t a t e
C a p t u r e , F r a u d a n d C o r r u p ti o n i n t h e P u b lic S e c to r
20

in c l u d i n g

organs

of

S t a te

to

respond

to

the

s t a te m e n t o f M r M w a b a P h ir i d a t e d 1 5 A u g u s t 2 0 1 9
p a r t ic u l a r ly p a r a g r a p h s 1 7 a n d 1 8 th e r e o f w h ic h I
h a v e b e e n a d v is e d i m p l ic a t e o r m a y i m p lic a te m e i n
r e l a ti o n t o m a t t e r s t h a t a r e b e in g i n v e s t ig a te d b y
t h e C o m m i s s i o n . I n o r d e r to r e s p o n d t o p a r a g r a p h s

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
1 7 a n d 1 8 i t is n e c e s s a r y t o q u o t e t h o s e p a r a g r a p h s
a s w e ll a s p a r a g r a p h 1 6 o f Mr P h ir i ’s s t a te m e n t
w h ic h r e c o r d s th e fo ll o w i n g … ”
A n d t h e n h e g o e s a n d h e q u o t e s w h a t y o u h a v e a lr e a d y
t e s ti fi e d to a b o u t Mr M a le m a ’s r e c o r d in g - in t e r v ie w r a th e r …
M R M WA B A P H I R I: H m .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

And then in paragraph 6 then he says I

r e s p o n d to M r P h ir i ’s c o n t e n ti o n s a s f o ll o w s :
“ I t i s c l e a r fr o m t h e c o n t e n t s o f t h e s e p a r a g r a p h s
t h a t M r P h i r i d o e s n o t h a v e a n y p e r s o n a l k n o w le d g e

10

o f th e a ll e g a t io n s t h a t h e m a k e s a g a i n s t m e a n d
t h e y a c c o r d in g l y c o n s t i tu t e h e a r s a y e v i d e n c e a n d
s h o u l d b e d is r e g a r d e d . I n a n y e v e n t … ”
6 .2 :
“In

any

event

I

have

no

r e c o ll e c t i o n

of

any

in v o lv e m e n t i n th is m a tt e r a n d a c c o r d i n g l y d e n y i ts
c o n te n ts . ”
D o y o u h a v e a n y r e m a r k s t o th a t ? A n y r e s p o n s e ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: I w o u l d j u s t p r o b a b l y s a y I a c c o r d i n g l y a c c e p t th e
20

tr u th o f t h i s - o f t h is c o n te n ts a s f a r a s I a m c o n c e r n e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s . T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

But you say you - you were saying what somebody

e ls e to ld y o u n a m e l y t h a t h e h a d b e e n a s k e d b y Mr M a t t h e w s t o c o m e
to the newsroom and stop the program?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: R e c o r d in g s t u d i o C h a i r.

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

S o w h a t y o u w e r e s a y in g is w h a t th a t p e r s o n

s a i d . N a m e ly i n s o f a r a s h e m e n ti o n e d Mr …
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Mr M a t t h e w s .
CHAIRPERSON: Jimi Matthews name?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I t i s t h a t p e r s o n w h o w o u ld k n o w w h e th e r it is
10

tr u e o r n o t b u t t h a t is w h a t t h e p e r s o n s a i d ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h a t is w h a t t h e p e r s o n s a i d . T h a t is tr u e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , ja .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: A n d h e t o l d m y t e a m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , y e s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: To s t o p t h e r e c o r d in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o t h e p a r t t h a t - t h a t i s w h a t y o u h e a r d b e in g
t o l d t o y o u r t e a m fr o m t h a t p e r s o n t h a t r e m a i n s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h a t r e m a in s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t y o u d o n o t k n o w is w h e t h e r …

20

M R M WA B A P H I R I: ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

H e w a s t e l li n g th e tr u t h i n - in s a y i n g Mr M a t t h e w s

had sent him?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h a t is tr u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t y o u d o n o t k n o w ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: T h a t is tr u e , j a .

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u a n d t h e n l a s tl y Mr P h ir i th e n

t h e c u r r e n t e n v i r o n m e n t th a t y o u a r e i n n o w t h e n e w s r o o m a n d h o w
m a t t e r s h a v e b e e n h a n d l e d n o w i s i t d i ff e r e n t f r o m h o w i t w a s i n 2 0 1 4
o r h a s i t i m p r o v e d a n d c o u ld y o u ju s t t e l l t h e C h a ir i f i t h a s t o w h a t
extent?
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

I t h a s d e f in i te ly i m p r o v e d . I w o u l d - I w ill g iv e a

v e r y b i a s a n s w e r b e c a u s e I a m a ff e c te d .

M y p r o g r a m is n o t o n a ir.

T h a t is w h y I - I c a n n o t s a y i t i s e x c e ll e n t. I t h a s i m p r o v e d …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

M R M WA B A P H I R I: B u t my p r o g r a m w e n t o ff a ir b e c a u s e I s u s p e c t o f
t h e r e s i d u e s o f t h e M o ts o e n e n g a r e a w h o a r e s t il l tr y in g t o h a v e t h e ir
way at the SABC.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n y o u s a y y o u r p r o g r a m is n o t o n a ir.

Are you

r e fe r r i n g t o … ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Q u e s t i o n ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e - t o q u e s ti o n t i m e ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u w is h i t t o b e r e s t o r e d - t o c o m e b a c k ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s C h a ir. I h a v e b e e n f i g h t in g fo r t h a t u p …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: U p t o t o d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Thank you.

T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n t h a t

is a ll fr o m t h is w it n e s s . T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is a ll .

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u w e r e t h e r e a t t h e S A B C f o r a l l t h e ti m e t h a t
M r M o ts o e n e n g w a s C O O o r A c t i n g C O O . I s t h a t r ig h t ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u h a v e m a n y d e a li n g w i t h h i m d ir e c tly y o u r s e lf ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

N o t d ir e c tly.

E x c e p t fo r ti m e s w h e n I w o u l d

p r o b a b ly in v i t e h i m t o my p r o g r a m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: J a .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: H e w o u ld c o m e in .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

I - I w a s ju s t l o o k i n g f o r - I w a s w o n d e r i n g

w h e t h e r y o u m i g h t b e a b l e to e x p l a in o r m a k e u s - g iv e u s a p i c t u r e o f
w h y i t is th a t i t l o o k s l ik e h e w a s v e r y i n fl u e n ti a l w i t h i n th e - w i th i n
SABC.
response

E a r l ie r o n I h e a r d e v i d e n c e a n d M r J i m i M a t t h e w s i n h is
to

the

statements

of

other

witnesses

has

said

that

M r M o ts o e n e n g w a s t h e k in d o f p e r s o n th a t - i t w a s d i ff ic u l t t o d i s a g r e e
w i t h o r h a v e a fi g h t w it h o r - o r e x p r e s s d i ff e r e n t v i e w s fr o m h i s a n d I
w a s t h in k i n g y o u m ig h t b e a b le t o g iv e m e a p i c tu r e a s t o w h e t h e r t h a t
20

w a s y o u r f e e l in g a s w e ll .
T h a t w a s y o u r v i e w a n d w h a t t h e b a s is w a s fo r e v e n
s o m e b o d y a s s e n i o r a s M r J i m i M a t t h e w s n o t fe e l i n g t h a t h e c o u l d
s t a n d u p a n d s a y n o I d o n o t a g r e e w it h y o u t o Mr M o t s o e n e n g . T h a t is
s o m e t h i n g y o u - y o u a r e u n a b le to - t o d o . To g iv e a p ic t u r e t h a t m i g h t
e x p l a i n th a t .

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M R M WA B A P H I R I: In - in f lu e n ti a l is I - I t h i n k C h a i r w h a t y o u a r e t h e
J u d g e w o u ld p o li t e l y w a n t t o p u t i t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

As far as the newsroom was concerned he was

a u t h o r i t a r i a n . H e w a s a d ic t a to r. W h a te v e r h e - h e w a n t e d - w h a t e v e r
he woke up with must be done.

I gave the example not in this forum

somewhere else.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: O f t h e f a c t t h a t t h e 9 0 p e r c e n t S o u t h A f r i c a n m u s ic
10

…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: A n d d ir e c t o r - d ir e c t o r a te w a s n o t i n a n y w a y b a d
b u t ju s t t h e w a y i t w a s d o n e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: J a . I t - i t - t h e r e w a s n o s tr a t e g y. S o m e b o d y j u s t
w a k e s u p o n e d a y a n d te ll s a ll o f y o u 9 0 p e r c e n t .

There - there are

q u a r t e r s - t h e r e a r e lo c a l m u s i c q u a r t e r s n e a r ly e v e r y w h e r e a r o u n d t h e
g l o b e . Yo u f in d th e Fr e n c h h a v e g o t s o m e th in g lik e n i n e - I t h i n k i t is
9 9 p e r c e n t m u s ic m u s t b e i n - i n th e ir l a n g u a g e o n ly.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Must be - yes.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: S o th e r e w a s p r o b a b l y n o t h i n g w r o n g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: W i t h th e S A B C g o in g t o 9 0 p e r c e n t …

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: B u t t h e w a y i t w a s d o n e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: W a s n o t p r o p e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: H e a n t a g o n is e d s t a k e h o l d e r s w i th i n a n d o u ts i d e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

B u s in e s s c o u ld h a v e b e e n p a r tn e r s i n t h a t 9 0

percent …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Fe l t t h a t ( i n d is t in c t) b y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: W i t h d r a w in g t h e ir b u s i n e s s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: A n d t h a t is w h a t m a d e i t f e ll …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: B e c a u s e t h e r e is n o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o n s u l t a ti o n ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: N o c o n s u l t a ti o n .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , h m . O k a y, o k a y. N o t h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r P h ir i . T h a n k y o u .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: S o r r y C h a ir I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I: I a l s o w a n t e d t o p u t t h is o n r e c o r d . I t h o u g h t t h is

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C o m m i s s i o n n e e d s t o l o o k o u t f o r - f o r th e f a c t t h a t s t a te b r o a d c a s t e r s
a r o u n d th e c o n ti n e n t a r e s o m e - t h e y a r e t h e n o r m o n t h e c o n t i n e n t . A s
a r e s u l t e v e n o u r p o li ti c a l l e a d e r s h ip h e w a n ts t o r e p l ic a te b o t h .
F o r tu n a te ly f o r S o u t h A f r i c a i t h a s a c o n s ti t u t i o n th a t is v e r y, v e r y, v e r y
- s o i d e a l t h a t I t h i n k i t g o e s in t o t h e c l o u d s i n s t e a d o f in t e r r u p ti n g w it h
t h e p e o p l e . I t is - i t i s t o o g o o d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To o g o o d ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Ye s ; a n d I d o n o t t h in k i t is a p p r e c i a te d o n t h e - o n
the ground.
10

T h e m e d i a - u s th e n e w s m e d i a n e e d s t o p l a y o u r r o le

t h e r e . I t h in k w e a r e v e r y i n t e g r a l to th e c o n s ti t u ti o n a l r e q u ir e m e n t o r
t h e f a c t t h a t fo r - f o r y o u r - fo r th e j u d ic ia r y, th e l e g is la t u r e a n d
P a r li a m e n t t o

check

each

o th e r.

They

must

have

fr e e d o m

of

e x p r e s s io n . T h e y c a n n o t d o t h a t w it h o u t fr e e d o m o f e x p r e s s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

S o i f th e p u b l ic b r o a d c a s t e r is c a p t u r e d t h a t k in d

o f c h e c k w o u l d n e v e r - w i ll n o t t a k e p l a c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

W e n e e d to h a v e a - p u b li c b r o a d - a p u b li c

b r o a d c a s t e r m o r e th a n a n y o th e r b r o a d c a s t e r. L e t u s fo r g e t a b o u t t h e 20

the private media.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

Th e p u b l ic b r o a d c a s t e r w h o s e s ta k e h o l d e r s h i p

in c l u d e s t h e w h o l e c o u n tr y n e e d s t o b e p r o t e c te d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Fr o m a n y f o r m o f c a p t u r e …

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: Fr o m e i t h e r t h e s ta t e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r p r iv a t e i n te r e s t ?
M R M WA B A P H I R I: P o l i tic a l o r e v e n i d e o l o g ic a l …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M WA B A P H I R I: C a p tu r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm. No, no …
M R M WA B A P H IR I:
stern
10

about

our

S o I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t , I w o u l d li k e to b e v e r y
plea

that

something

should

happen

after

th is

C o m m i s s i o n to p r o t e c t t h e S A B C s o w e l l t h a t w h a te v e r h a p p e n e d in th e
la s t fi v e y e a r s s h o u l d n e v e r, e v e r o c c u r a g a i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . N o , n o I m e a n th e m e d ia is c r u c ia l i n a n y
d e m o c r a c y, I m e a n t h e m a t t e r s t h a t t h is C o m m i s s i o n is i n v e s t ig a ti n g a
lo t o f t h e m c a m e t o t h e f o r e b e c a u s e o f t h e m e d i a , b e c a u s e o f
jo u r n a li s ts , c o u r a g e o u s j o u r n a lis ts w h o i n v e s t ig a t e d c e r t a i n t h i n g s a n d
p u t th e m f o r w a r d t h e n t h e p u b l ic b e g a n t o r e a li s e t h a t th e r e w e r e
c e r t a i n t h i n g s th a t n e e d e d f u r t h e r i n v e s ti g a ti o n , s o t h e r o l e o f t h e
m e d i a i s r e a lly c r u c i a l b u t a s y o u m a y h a v e h e a r d w h e n I s p o k e t o M s
P il l a y j o u r n a lis ts a l l o v e r a r e i n v i t e d t o r e f le c t o n w h a t k i n d o f

20

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s th is C o m m i s s i o n s h o u l d c o n s id e r m a k i n g a t th e e n d
o f i t s w o r k t h a t w o u ld a c h i e v e w h a t y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t, s o I w il l b e
v e r y i n te r e s t e d a t t h e r i g h t t i m e to r e c e iv e i n p u t fr o m t h e m e d i a p e o p l e
t h e m s e l v e s a n d t a k e t h e m i n to a c c o u n t i n m a k i n g r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t h a t
I w o u l d m a k e , s o a ll o f y o u c a n s ta r t w o r k i n g .
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

W e w il l d e fi n i t e l y r e s p o n d .

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

N o t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h , th a n k y o u f o r

c o m i n g t o s h a r e y o u r e v i d e n c e w i th t h e C o m m is s i o n , i f w e n e e d t o a s k
you to come back we may ask you but for now you are excused.
M R M WA B A P H I R I:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n , Mr C h a ir m a n t h e

n e x t w it n e s s is th e w i t n e s s M s T h a n d e k a G q u b u l e - M b e k i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

H e r s ta t e m e n t is in E X H I B I T C C 2 9 .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

M r C h a i r ma n w h i ls t t h e w i t n e s s is

p r o c e e d i n g t o ta k e a s e a t m a y I j u s t e x p l a i n t o th e C h a ir t h a t t h i s
w i t n e s s w a s m o v e d , s h e w a s s u p p o s e d t o te s t i fy s o m e ti m e n e x t w e e k ,
b u t b e c a u s e o n e w it n e s s t h a t w a s s u p p o s e d t o – th a t w a s s c h e d u l e d fo r
t o d a y c o u l d n o t m a k e i t t o d a y d u e t o a n o ffi c i a l e n g a g e m e n t , w e m o v e d
h e r t o t o d a y, b u t a ll t h e i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n s w e r e n o ti f ie d t e l e p h o n ic a lly
a n d t h e y h a d a l l in d i c a t e d t h a t t h e y h a d n o d i ff ic u l ty w i t h h e r te s ti fy in g
t o d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o t h a t ’s f in e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

C h a ir t h e r e is a f e w e r r o r s in t h e

s t a te m e n t o f t h e w i tn e s s , h e r n a m e is n o t s p e l t c o r r e c t ly, i n f a c t I th i n k
t h e t e a m t h a t . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t is h a p p e n in g , I h a v e b e e n t a l k i n g a b o u t

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
p e o p l e ’s n a m e s n o t b e in g s p e l t c o r r e c tl y.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s , t h a n k y o u , b u t w h a t i s i n t e r e s t in g

h e r e C h a ir I t h i n k t h e m is ta k e w a s m a d e b y t h e w i t n e s s h e r s e l f b e c a u s e
if C h a i r h a d t o g o t o p a g e 2 8 w h e r e s h e s ig n e d h e r s u r n a m e , t h e fir s t
s u r n a m e is s p e l t i n c o r r e c tl y, a n d I t h in k t h e n t h e t e a m t h a t w a s b in d in g
w e n t – in f a c t e v e n o n t h e fir s t p a g e C h a i r y o u w i ll f in d t h a t w h a t i s o n
p a g e 2 8 a n d w h a t is o n t h e f ir s t p a g e i s a l s o d i ff e r e n t, s o t h e t e a m j u s t
w e n t w i t h w h a t is c o n t a in e d o n th e fir s t p a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : G - c in s t e a d o f G - q ?
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , a n d th e n i n 2 8 t h e r e ’s G c a n d t h e n

t h e w it n e s s s i g n e d , I th i n k i t m u s t h a v e b e e n m a y b e a c o m p u te r g li tc h
t h e r e , I d o n ’ t k n o w, b u t .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u w il l m a k e a r r a n g e m e n ts fo r t h e s e p a g e s t o b e

r e p l a c e d b y p a g e s t h a t h a v e g o t t h e c o r r e c t s p e ll in g ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

W i th t h e c o r r e c t n a m e s y e s C h a ir, th a n k

y o u . A n d t h e n C h a ir y o u w i ll fi n d a ls o t h i s a ffi d a v i t o f t h e w it n e s s t h e
w i t n e s s h e r s e l f h a d d e c id e d i n s t e a d o f a t t a c h i n g a n n e x u r e s t o a c t u a l ly
in c o r p o r a t e w h a t ’s c o n t a i n e d i n t h e A n n e x u r e s , i n t h e a ff id a v i t i ts e l f , s o
t h e n u m b e r i n g is a b it d i ff e r e n t.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

B u t s h e i s q u i te c o m f o r t a b l e , I a m q u i te

c o m f o r t a b l e l e a d i n g h e r o n h e r s t a t e m e n t , w e w i ll b e a b l e t o n a v ig a t e
it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o t h a t ’s f in e . T h a t’s t h e n o r m is n ’t i t , o u ts id e o f
t h e C o m m is s i o n ?

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

S o m e p e o p l e l ik e t o d o t h a t y e s .

A n n e x u r e s a n d j u s t a t t a c h e d w it h o u t t h e s e d i v i d e r s

t h a t y o u p e o p le li k e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

N o th a t is tr u e C h a ir t h a n k y o u .

C h a ir

may she be sworn in?
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e l e t u s a d m it t h is – t h e f il e c o n t a i n in g th e

s t a te m e n t o f M s T h a n d e k a G q u b u l e - M b e k i w il l b e m a r k e d a s E X H I B I T
CC29.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

M a y t h e w it n e s s b e s w o r n i n ?

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a d m i n is t e r th e o a t h o r a ff ir m a t io n
REGISTRAR:

P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

My n a m e is Th a n d e k a G q u b u l e -

Mbeki.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t i o n t o t a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

oath?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :
REGISTRAR:
20

None..

D o y o u c o n s i d e r th e o a th t o b e b i n d i n g o n y o u r

conscience?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

I c o n s id e r t h e o a t h b in d i n g o n my

conscience.
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e
tr u th , t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th i n g b u t th e tr u th , i f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r
r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e l p m e G o d .

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

S o h e lp m e G o d .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M s G q u b u l e - M b e k i . T h a n k y o u ,
you may proceed.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . T h a n k y o u , M s

G q u b u l e - M b e k i c a n y o u p l e a s e l o o k a t t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t i s i n fr o n t o f
y o u , is t h a t y o u r s ta t e m e n t , i n f a c t i t i s a n a ffi d a v it , b u t it is w r i t t e n
s t a te m e n t a t p a g e o n e i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

Ye s it i s C h a ir.

T h a n k y o u , a n d i f w e tu r n t o p a g e 2 8 o f

that document.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

Ye s i s t h a t y o u r s i g n a tu r e th a t a p p e a r s

there?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I n d e e d i t is .

Th a n k y o u a n d t h e n i s i t c o r r e c t th a t y o u r

fir s t s u r n a m e is n o t s p e l t c o r r e c t ly t h e r e , c o u ld y o u c o r r e c t i t fo r t h e
record.
MS THANDEKA GQUBULE-MBEKI:

I t s h o u l d b e G q u b u le w h ic h is G -

q - u - b - u - l- e .
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s t h a n k y o u , a n d t h a t is t h e s a m e a t

p a g e i f y o u g o t o p a g e o n e i t a ls o is m i s s p e l t th e r e , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

Ye s , m a y I c l a r if y t h a t , o n th e h o p

I – w e h a d w o r k e d o n t h is d o c u m e n t f o r q u i t e a w h il e s o I r e a l ly
a d d r e s s e d m y s e l f to t h e c o n t e n t s r a t h e r t h a n th e a e s th e ti c s a n d th e
s p e l li n g w h i c h I a p o l o g i s e f o r.

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s t h a n k y o u , y e s , w e w il l d o , w e w i ll

h a v e t o d o a s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ff id a v i t b u t a ft e r y o u h a v e t e s ti f ie d t o d a y
to correct those errors.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u .

Ye s th a n k y o u , a n d d i d y o u m a k e t h i s

s t a te m e n t fr e e ly a n d v o l u n ta r il y ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I did so.

Ye s , a n d t h e c o n t e n ts o f t h is a ff id a v i t i s

tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ?
10

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ja.

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

C o u ld y o u j u s t te ll t h e

C h a ir p e r s o n . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I s e e t h e o n e i s a s t a te m e n t , t h e o t h e r s m a y b e
. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th e r e w e r e o th e r s th a t a r e in c o r p o r a te d ,

a r e v a r i o u s c o u r t a p p li c a t io n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I

see

that

it

was

done

at

a

p o li c e

s t a ti o n

nevertheless.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

Ye s i t w a s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e s t a te m e n t , j a .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Thank you, where

a r e y o u c u r r e n tly e m p lo y e d ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

I a m e m p lo y e d b y t h e S o u t h

A fr ic a n B r o a d c a s t in g C o r p o r a ti o n , t h e S A B C .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d w h a t i s t h e p o s i ti o n th a t y o u h o ld

Page 144 of 230

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
there?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

C h a i r I a m t h e E c o n o m ic s E d i t o r

f o r t h e S A B C , I a m r e s p o n s i b l e f o r a ll e c o n o m i c s , f in a n c e a n d b u s in e s s
r e p o r t in g a c r o s s o u r 1 9 r a d io s t a t i o n s , o u r f o u r c h a n n e ls a n d o u r d i g i t a l
p l a t fo r m .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

C o u ld y o u p l e a s e p la c e o n r e c o r d y o u r

q u a li fi c a t io n s p l e a s e ?
MS THANDEKA GQUBULE-MBEKI:

I am concluding a Masters of

P h il o s o p h y i n I n te r n a ti o n a l B u s i n e s s , I h a v e a M a s t e r s d e g r e e i n
10

J o u r n a li s m fr o m t h e C o l u m b ia S c h o o l o f J o u r n a l is m i n N e w Yo r k , I h a v e
v a r io u s b u s i n e s s q u a li f ic a t i o n s fr o m . . .( in t e r v e n t i o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : To o m a n y to m e n ti o n .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

I n s e a d w h ic h is Fo n t a i n e b le a u i n

P a r is , I h a v e v a r i o u s q u a l i fi c a t io n s f r o m W i ts B u s i n e s s S c h o o l a n d j a I
t h i n k I w il l l e a v e i t a t th a t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s th a n k y o u .

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , y o u s e e t h e h u m ili t y p r e v e n ts h e r fr o m s a y in g a ll
of them.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

Ye s , t h a n k y o u . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n )

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

I d i d m a tr i c u l a t e h o w e v e r a t

E p w o r th G ir l s H ig h S c h o o l in P i e te r m a r i tz b u r g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d t h o s e q u a li f ic a t i o n s m o s t o f t h e m a r e

c o n ta in e d i n p a r a g r a p h 5 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

Indeed they are.

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

C o u l d y o u t h e n t e ll t h e

C h a ir p e r s o n th a t I w o u ld i m a g i n e m a y b e e v e n w it h o u t g o i n g in t o d e ta il
in t o w h a t h a p p e n e d w i t h th e S A B C 8 b e c a u s e y o u r c o ll e a g u e s h a v e
a lr e a d y s p o k e n to it , m a y b e y o u c o u ld ju s t h i g h li g h t t h e a r e a s th a t Mr
K r i g e a n d M s P il la y h a v e n o t d e a l t w i t h i n t h e ir e v id e n c e , w h i c h I
b e li e v e y o u m i g h t h a v e h a d – li s te n e d t o o r a t l e a s t h a v e h a d a l o o k a t
w h a t t h e y t e s ti fi e d t o th e C o m m i s s i o n a b o u t. C o u l d y o u j u s t h i g h l ig h t
t h o s e a r e a s t h a t t h e y h a v e n o t d e a l t w it h ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:
10

C h a ir t h e y h a v e b r o a d l y d e a l t w i t h

t h e s w e e p o f m o s t o f t h e h a p p e n in g s , t h e y h a v e h o w e v e r l e f t t o m e I
s u p p o s e t o d e a l w i th t h e h u m a n tr a u m a a n d t h e s m e a r c a m p a ig n s , t h e
v ic ti m i s a t io n s a n d t h e d e a t h o f o n e o f u s , S u n a .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

MS THANDEKA GQUBULE-MBEKI:

And I know that Foeta must have

h a v e d e a l t w i th t h e . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t ’s M r Kr ig e ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

Th a t ’s M r Kr ig e , s o r r y.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:
20

H e m u s t h a v e d e a l t w it h t h e

m e e ti n g i n w h ic h w e w e r e d i s m is s e d , f o r w h ic h w e w e r e a ll e g e d l y
d is m i s s e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r h e t a lk e d a b o u t t h e

c o n te n ts , th e d is c u s s i o n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

H e s p o k e a b o u t h i m l a r g e ly.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , m a y b e y o u c a n d e a l w i t h t h a t.

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:
m e e ti n g a t t h e S A B C .
a c r o s s r a d i o a n d T V.

E v e r y m o r n in g C h a i r t h e r e i s a

I t is h e l d b y t h e le a d e r s h i p o f t h e n e w s r o o m
In th o s e d a y s t h e r e w e r e t w o m e e ti n g s a n d w e

w e r e i n a r a d io m e e t in g . A t t h i s r a d io m e e t in g a d i s c u s s io n c a m e u p
a b o u t w h e t h e r to c o v e r th e o b je c ti o n b y t h e a c ti v i s t s , t h e C i v i l S o c i e ty
A c tiv is ts t o t h e p r o te s t p o lic y. N o w a fe w d a y s b e f o r e t h a t t h e c a p i ta l
c i ty w a s b u r n i n g a s th e A N C r i p p e d i ts e l f a p a r t o n th e s tr e e t s o f t h e
c a p i t a l c i ty. W e w e r e a s k e d n o t t o c o v e r t h e e v e n t s . . .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is is 2 0 1 6 ?
10

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

Ye s s ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , I j u s t w a n t t o l o c a t e i t i n t e r m s o f t i m e w h a t y o u
are talking about.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

Chairperson we were asked not to

c o v e r i t i n a n o r m a l jo u r n a li s tic w a y, u s i n g a ll t h e j o u r n a l is t ic v a l u e s
a n d p r e s c r ip ts , w e w e r e a s k e d in s t e a d t o c o n c e a l t h e i n t e n s i ty o f th e
fir e s t h a t b u r n t t h r o u g h t h e c a p i t a l c i ty. W e w e r e a s k e d t o s ta n d u n d e r
J a c a r a n d a tr e e s , w e l l o u r jo u r n a l is ts t o s t a n d u n d e r J a c a r a n d a t r e e s
a n d n o t s h o w t h e b u r n i n g c a p i ta l c i t y. F o r u s th is is h e in o u s , a n d a t a
p r e v i o u s m e e t i n g t o t h e o n e fo r w h ic h w e w e r e fi r e d I a s k e d a n d I
20

p l e a d e d w i t h N ta t i Te b e l e , S i m o n Te b e l e a n d I w e r e r a th e r c l o s e , w e
u s e d t o p r a y t o g e t h e r, w e u s e d t o e a t b r e a k fa s t i n h i s o ff ic e t o g e t h e r
some days.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

J u s t r e m in d m e w h a t h is p o s i t io n w a s a t th e t i m e

Head of News or Acting Head of News.

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

He was at the time Head of News

o r A c t in g H e a d o f N e w s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d H e a d o f N e w s o r A c t in g H e a d o f N e w s w o u l d b e
H e a d o f N e w s f o r R a d io a n d T V ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

I n d e e d s ir, a n d D i g i t a l .

CHAIRPERSON: Okay and Digital, yes.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

S o h a v i n g y o u r s e l f , h a v in g b e e n a

le c t u r e r t e a c h i n g j o u r n a l is m I a m s u r e i t m u s t h a v e b e e n s h o c k i n g ,
something that was unheard of that you could be told what to cover and
10

w h a t n o t to c o v e r.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

I t is h e i n o u s t o h i d e f r o m c it iz e n s ,

it w a s h e in o u s o n a n u m b e r o f le v e ls , t h r e e m a i n ly, fi r s tl y to h i d e fr o m
c i tiz e n s w h a t t h e y n e e d t o k n o w a b o u t h o w t h e y a r e g o v e r n e d a n d t h e
p u b lic r e s p o n s e , t o b e a s k e d t o m u t e t h e p u b li c v o i c e i n a d e m o c r a c y
was for me a treasonous request. Then the second part was that our
jo u r n a li s ts w e r e b e i n g c o n s tr a i n e d fr o m p r a c ti c i n g t h e ir v o c a t i o n a s
they have been taught.

I l e c tu r e d i n j o u r n a l is m a t R h o d e s U n i v e r s i t y

a n d I b e g a n a n d s t a r t e d a n d fo u n d e d t h e J o u r n a l is m D e p a r t m e n t o f
M o n a r c h U n iv e r s it y S o u t h A f r i c a a n d s o m e o f th e s t u d e n ts w h o c o m e
20

o u t o f R h o d e s i n e v it a b l y e n d u p i n o u r n e w s r o o m a n d s o m e o f th e m
w a s h u p fr o m M o n a r c h i n o u r n e w s r o o m , s o s o m e o f my s t u d e n ts
r e p o r t e d to m e a n d th o s e p e o p l e t h a t w e t a u g h t e t h i c s t o a t R h o d e s a n d
w e ta u g h t th e m w r i t in g w h a t w e r e t h e y t o t h i n k o f m e i f I w a s t o
e n d o r s e th is a ft e r t e a c h i n g t h e m t o d o t h e o p p o s it e .
T h e th ir d p a r t w a s n o t s o m u c h a b o u t th e r ig h ts o f f r e e d o m o f

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
e x p r e s s io n , b u t t h e f a c t t h a t i n a c a v a l ie r w a y w e w e r e b e in g a s k e d to
b e n d th e v e r y m a n d a te o f p u b l ic b r o a d c a s t in g . N o w I a m a d ie - h a r d fo r
t h e m a n d a t e o f p u b li c b r o a d c a s ti n g , p e r h a p s I s h o u ld h a v e s a i d t h a t i n
m y C V, I c u t m y t e e th i n j o u r n a li s m a t t h e W e e k ly M a il , w h i c h w a s a
p r o - d e m o c r a c y n e w s p a p e r in t h e d a r k d a y s o f a p a r t h e i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D u r in g t h e E i g h t ie s ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

D u r i n g th e E i g h t i e s a n d w e w e r e

t a u g h t a n d i t w a s y o u k n o w r e a ll y s e e p e d in t o u s th a t jo u r n a l is m i s o n e
o f t h e d e m o c r a c y p r o p e ll e r s , t h a t i n a n y d e m o c r a t ic e c o - s y s t e m
10

jo u r n a li s ts a r e p a r t o f t h o s e w h o o u g h t t o b e c o n s id e r e d th e g u a r d i a n s
of governance and so having been reared in this way and having reared
a n d ta u g h t o th e r s t h i s w a y I c o u ld n ’t s l e e p a t n ig h t , I h a d th e m o s t
a m a z in g c o g n i ti v e d i s s i d e n c e , s o I b e g g e d N t a ti , d e p e n d i n g o n o u r
r e l a ti o n s h i p t o g e t h e r N ta t i p l e a s e j u s t l e t t h e m fr e e , l e t t h e m g e t i n t o
P r e t o r i a , r a m p u p d e p lo y m e n t p l e a s e N t a ti .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y is t h a t n o w s t il l b a c k a t t h e m e e t in g o r w a s
it a f te r ?
MS THANDEKA GQUBULE-MBEKI:

T h is is a m e e ti n g b e f o r e t h e

m e e ti n g f o r w h ic h w e w e r e f ir e d .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O h , o k a y, t h a t is t h e m e e t in g w h e r e h e s a i d d o n ’ t –

t h e j o u r n a l is ts m u s t n ’ t s h o w th e f u l l e x t e n t o f w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g in
Pretoria.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

Ye s , th is i s t h e m e e t in g a t w h ic h

h e is o p e r a ti o n a li s i n g t h e p r o te s t p o l ic y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y, o k a y.

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

A n d i t h a p p e n e d p r i o r to t h e

m e e ti n g fo r w h ic h h e g o t r e a ll y f e d - u p a n d p a r t ic ip a t e d i n o u r
e v a c u a t io n fr o m t h e b r o a d c a s t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

T h is is t h e p r e v i o u s m e e ti n g a n d I

lo o k e d a r o u n d t o c o l l e a g u e s a n d I s a i d p le a s e s u p p o r t , N t a ti t h is h a s
g o n e t o o fa r, l o o k b e h in d y o u w h e r e w e s i t , o u r e d i t o r i a l c o d e s i ts
b e h in d u s a s w e h a v e t h i s r o u n d m e e ti n g .

S o m e o f th e c o l l e a g u e s

w a n t e d t o s p e a k , I c o u ld s e e , b u t s o m e t h in g w a s c o n s tr a i n in g th e m , I
10

t u r n e d t o o n e o f t h e o th e r e d i to r s a n d s h e s a i d t o m e ( A f r i c a n
la n g u a g e ) , s o I th e n . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t g iv e th e E n g l is h v e r s io n , s o .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

S h e s a i d “ I d o n o t w is h t o g e t i n to

any trouble”.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

S o t h a t p a in t e d m e i n e y e s o f

o th e r s a s s o m e b o d y w h o i s s o m e w h a t w il li n g t o g e t in t o t h is t r o u b l e ,
b u t i n m y o w n e y e s I a m s o m e b o d y w h o is tr y i n g to e x p u n g e a g u il ty
a n d a d is s o n a n c e th a t I c a n e v e r b e in v o lv e d in s u c h a c ti o n s .
20

S o t h e m e e ti n g f o r w h ic h w e w e r e fi r e d i t w a s m y s e l f , i t w a s –
it h a p p e n e d s o o n a f t e r th e m e e t i n g a b o u t t h e – w h e r e t h e y fir s t
o p e r a ti o n a li s e d th e p r o t e s t p o li c y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y le t ’s f i n is h t h a t m e e t in g f ir s t , h o w d id i t e n d ,
ju s t g i v e m e s o m e m o r e d is c u s s i o n a t th a t m e e t in g w h e r e w e – y o u
w e r e lo o k i n g f o r s u p p o r t a n d th e r e w a s n ’t s u p p o r t fo r t h c o m i n g a n d s o

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
on.
MS THANDEKA GQUBULE-MBEKI:
he

was

a b s o l u te ly

f ir m

that

N ta t i Te b e l e w a s a b s o lu t e l y fir m ,

we

wouldn’t

entertain

my

fe a r s

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u tr i e d t o r a i s e it w it h h i m b u t i t d i d n o t w o r k .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

S o th e n h e w o u ld a ft e r t h e m e e ti n g t h e n

y o u w o u ld b e d ir e c te d t o s i m p ly i m p le m e n t th a t d e c is i o n t h a t h e h a d
taken.
10

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

Ye s I w e n t b a c k in t o th e n e w s r o o m

a n d I w e n t a r o u n d v o ic in g m y d is g r u n tl e m e n t a n d m y u t t e r d i s p l e a s u r e
a t w h a t w a s g o in g o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Mmm.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

A n d .. .( i n t e r v e n t i o n )

S o t h e n t h e n e x t m e e t in g w o u l d b e th e

o n e th a t y o u m o v e d t o , t h e o n e w h e r e y o u w e r e t h e n fir e d ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

B e f o r e t h a t I g o t a c a ll fr o m

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
20

CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y le t ’s t r y i f y o u c a n r e m e m b e r, w e k n o w i t

w a s 2 0 1 6 , d o y o u r e m e m b e r th e m o n th o r e v e n t h e d a te . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n )
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :
CHAIRPERSON:

I t w a s w i n t e r.

M a y b e it is s u c h a n i m p o r t a n t m e e ti n g y o u w o u l d

r e m e m b e r e v e n t h e d a te ja .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

It was the

Page 151 of 230

Winter of our

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
Discontent.
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( l a u g h in g ) o k a y.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :
CHAIRPERSON:

It was mid-2016.

O k a y, o h it w o u ld – b e f o r e t h e e l e c t io n s , s o t h e

e l e c ti o n s w o u ld h a v e b e e n M a y I t h i n k .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

Ye s it w a s M a y.

C H A I R P E R S O N : M o r e o r le s s , th e y w e r e n o t i n J u n e I th i n k th a t ’s fo r
s u r e , s o t h e y w o u l d h a v e b e e n i n M a y o r A p r i l , I’ m n o t s u r e t h e
e l e c ti o n s .
10

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O r m a y b e – I m a y b e m is t a k e n a c t u a ll y, I m a y b e

m is t a k e n , I t h i n k i t’s t h e N a t io n a l o n e s t h a t a r e n o r m a l ly h e l d i n A p r il o r
M a y, 2 0 1 6 w a s l o c a l g o v e r n m e n t e l e c ti o n s , I t h i n k t h o s e w e r e in
August.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

Ye s , i t w a s t h e m o r n in g a f t e r t h i s

c a p i t a l c i ty w e n t u p i n fl a m e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y b u t n o w I s e e m t o r e m e m b e r I t h in k th e y w e r e

h e l d a f te r M a y, i t m ig h t h a v e b e e n e v e n A u g u s t , t h e l o c a l g o v e r n m e n t
e l e c ti o n s , i f I ’ m n o t m i s t a k e n , b u t I w a n t e d t o h a v e a s e n s e o f
20

r o u n d a b o u t w h e n i n 2 0 1 6 it w a s , b u t y o u ’r e s a y i n g r o u n d a b o u t m i d 2016.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s s ir.

I s e e m t o r e c a l l th a t a c c o r d i n g t o M s

P il l a y ’s e v i d e n c e i t w o u l d b e b e t w e e n J u n e , a r o u n d J u n e /J u l y b u t w e ’r e
ju s t lo o k i n g f o r t h e e x a c t d a te s fr o m h e r s t a te m e n t .

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t ’s fi n e , b u t w in t e r.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s C h a ir.

MS THANDEKA GQUBULE-MBEKI:

A f t e r t h a t m e e ti n g , t h e in i ti a l

m e e ti n g t h e fi r s t m e e t in g a b o u t th e c a p i ta l c i t y a n d th e c o v e r a g e o f th e
c a p i t a l c it y

at which

th e y

o p e r a ti o n a l is e d

or

wished

for

us

to

o p e r a ti o n a li s e t h e p r o t e s t p o l ic y. I r e c e i v e d a c a l l fr o m a c o ll e a g u e , a
f e ll o w e d i to r c a ll e d Z o l is a Si g a b i , a n d s h e t o l d m e th a t B u s is iw e N tu li is
lo o k in g fo r m e , a n d I w a s – I d i d n ’ t k n o w B u s i a t t h e t i m e a n d I w a s
a w a r e th a t th r o u g h o u t t h e n e w s r o o m t h e r e w e r e p o c k e ts o f d is c o n te n t
10

and

r u m b li n g s

about

o r g a n is i n g

s o m e th in g

to

respond

to

the

in c r e a s i n g ly h e in o u s t h i n g s t h a t w e w e r e b e i n g a s k e d t o d o .
I w e n t to s e e B u s i a n d I c a ll e d h e r b e f o r e a n d I w e n t t o s e e
h e r a n d e ff e c t iv e ly s h e r e c r u it e d m e i n t o t h e e ff o r ts th a t l a t e r b e c a m e
t h e S A B C 8 , a n d i t w a s p r i o r t o th a t , t o g e t h e r w e w e n t to s e e t h e
Fr e e d o m o f Ex p r e s s i o n I n s t it u t e .
CHAIRPERSON: The two of you now?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e t w o o f u s .

J a , i s th is t h e f o ll o w i n g d a y o r s a m e d a y o f t h e

m e e ti n g w h e r e t h e y s o u g h t t o o p e r a ti o n a li s e t h e . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
20

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:
o p e r a ti o n a li s i n g

m e e ti n g

and

th e

C h a ir i t w a s b e tw e e n t h e
m e e ti n g

fo r

w h ic h

we

were

s u b s e q u e n t ly d is m i s s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e s a m e d a y o r d i ff e r e n t d a y s ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y, a lr ig h t .

I t w a s d i ff e r e n t d a y s .
Yo u w e n t to s e e t h e Fr e e d o m o f

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E x p r e s s i o n I n s t i tu t e ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON: Mmm?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

Ye s , w e a s k e d t h e m w h e t h e r t h e r e

is a n y r o u t e l e g a ll y t o c h a ll e n g e t h e e d i t o r i a l p o l ic y o f 2 0 1 6 , a n d w e
. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u h a d j u s t h e a r d f o r t h e f ir s t ti m e a t t h is m e e ti n g

a b o u t t h is p o li c y o r y o u h a d h e a r d a b o u t i t b e f o r e b u t t h e y h a d n o t
s t a r t e d o p e r a ti o n a li s i n g i t?
10

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

S ir I w a s a w a y a t h o m e in t h e

E a s t e r n C a p e a n d I r e t u r n e d t o t h e c a p i ta l c i t y s to r y a n d t o th e
r u m b li n g s i n t h e n e w s r o o m a n d t o t h e c a ll t h a t B u s i is lo o k i n g f o r m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

A n d t h e n I h a d a m e e t i n g w i th

B u s i a n d s h e i n v it e d e v e r y b o d y b u t u n fo r t u n a t e l y t h e r e w e r e o n ly t w o o f
u s in t h a t m e e t i n g , B u s i a n d m y s e l f, a n d w e d e c id e d t o t h e n g o t o th e
Fr e e d o m o f E x p r e s s io n I n s ti t u te t o a s k t h e m i f w e c o u l d f in d a w a y a s
s t a ff m e m b e r s o f t h e S A B C t o h a v e t h e 2 0 1 6 p o lic y s e t a s id e , a n d w e
a ls o w a n t e d t o k n o w w h a t w e c o u l d d o a b o u t t h e p r o t e s t p o l ic y l e g a l ly.
20

T h e n w e w e n t a b o u t o u r b u s i n e s s , w e n t b a c k t o o u r d i ff e r e n t
d e p a r t m e n ts a n d b e g a n t o w o r k , a n d th e n I w e n t i n to a m e e ti n g t h e
n o r m a l d i a r y m e e t in g a n d t h is is t h e m e e t i n g t h a t i n J o e C o l le r ’s r e p o r t
h e d e s c r i b e s a s t h e d ia r y m e e t in g fr o m h e l l.
I n t h e m e e t in g . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n )
CHAIRPERSON: Just to make sure one understands at the Freedom of

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E x p r e s s i o n In s t i tu t e d i d y o u l e a v e t h e r e t o g o b a c k o n t h e b a s is t h a t
t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o l o o k i n t o t h e i s s u e s y o u h a v e r a is e d t o s e e h o w t o
help you?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

Indeed they said they would

in v e s t i g a t e h o w t o h e l p u s b e c a u s e t h e y ’ v e g o t a p r o b o n o le g a l c l in ic
a tt a c h e d t o th e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, r i g h t . S o y o u w e n t b a c k .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

S o w e w e n t b a c k a n d w e a ls o

p h o n e d t h e C PJ , t h e C o m m i t te e fo r t h e P r o te c t i o n o f J o u r n a l is ts i n N e w
10

Yo r k a n d w e w e r e t r y i n g t o fi n d a w a y o f t e lli n g t h e m w h a t w e w e r e
going through.

T h e n w e w e n t in t o o u r d i ff e r e n t d e p a r t m e n ts , g iv i n g

e a c h o t h e r ta s k s , B u s i a n d I, t o r e c r u i t o t h e r p e o p l e a n d t o s p e a k to
o th e r p e o p l e a n d i t i s i n t h is c o n te x t t h a t w e s p o k e t o J a c q u e s a n d t o
K r iv a n i . T h e n w e w e n t i n to t h i s m e e t i n g a n d B u s i w a s n ’ t t h e r e , i t w a s
c h a ir e d b y J o n a t h a n L u n g u fr o m M p u m a l a n g a a n d h e w a s s o m e w h a t
a s s is t e d b y Z o l is a Si g a b i b a c k h e r e a t h o m e i n te r m s o f k e e p i n g t h e
J o h a n n e s b u r g c r o w d g o i n g . N t a t i Te b e l e c a m e in a n d a s s e r t e d h i m s e l f
in t h e m e e ti n g a n d h e p r i m a r il y s a id t h a t t h e – o n e o f th e to p s lu g s , a
s lu g is w e n a m e a s t o r y, w e j u s t g iv e i t a q u ic k n a m e , a n d t h e n w e g iv e
20

a b r ie f i n d ic a ti o n o f w h a t t h e s t o r y i s a b o u t a n d t h e n w e a s s i g n
jo u r n a li s ts to c o v e r it a n d t h e n w e t e l l w h a t ti m e i t is to b e d e l iv e r e d .
S o N t a ti s a i d th e s lu g c a l le d p r o t e s t , I t h in k i t w a s c a l le d
p r o t e s t , w h i c h w a s t h e s l u g r e f e r r i n g t o t h e p r o t e s t b y th e r i g h t t o k n o w
c a m p a i g n a t d i ff e r e n t S A B C f a c il i ti e s , I t h i n k i n D u r b a n a n d in C a p e
To w n , t h a t s t o r y w a s t o b e b a n n e d o r c a n n e d o r j u s t w a s n ’ t to h a p p e n .

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

J u s t a s a m a tt e r o f i n te r e s t th a t r i g h t t o

k n o w s t o r y d id i t r e la t e to t h is p o l ic y ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

Ye s , i t w a s – it r e l a te d t o t h e

p r o t e s t p o li c y th e y w e r e p r o t e s ti n g t h e p u b li c ’s r i g h t t o k n o w fr o m i t s
o w n p u b lic b r o a d c a s t e r.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

D o y o u k n o w w h e th e r a t t h a t s t a g e t h e y w e r e a c t in g

simply because they might have seen in the media that the SABC was
i m p l e m e n ti n g , th e y a d o p t e d t h i s p o l ic y o r w h e t h e r t h e y m a y h a v e b e e n
10

c o n ta c t e d b y t h e F r e e d o m o f E x p r e s s io n I n s ti t u te o r a n y t h i n g o r y o u
d o n ’t k n o w ?
MS THANDEKA GQUBULE-MBEKI:

N o , w h a t I a m a w a r e o f is a

m u s h r o o m in g o f d is c o n t e n t t h r o u g h o u t t h e m e d i a i n d u s tr y a n d c iv il
s o c ie t y a f t e r t h e i s s u i n g b y S A B C o f a m e d ia s ta t e m e n t a b o u t th e
p r o t e s t p o li c y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y.

Ye s I t h i n k I – w e in t e r r u p t e d y o u w h i le

y o u w e r e t e l li n g u s a b o u t t h e – c o n ti n u i n g t o t e ll u s a b o u t th e m e e ti n g ,
t h e d i a r y m e e ti n g I t h i n k .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:
20

Ye s . A t th e m e e ti n g D e p u t y C h ie f

J u s t ic e I t h e n a s k e d N t a ti Te b e le t o c o v e r t h e s t o r y, t o a ll o w u s to c o v e r
t h e s to r y, a n d h e s a i d n o , h e w a s q u i t e a d a m a n t a n d g iv e n t h a t I h a d
a lr e a d y e x p e r i e n c e d h i s f ir m n e s s a r o u n d t h e c a p i t a l c i ty b u r n i n g I
d e c i d e d t o a l s o p u t my o w n fo o t d o w n , a n d I s a i d N ta t i w i th r e g a r d s t o
t h is i t is a m a t te r th a t is r e a lly c o n c e r n in g f o r t h e e n t ir e y o u k n o w
n e w s r o o m a n d m e d ia in d u s tr y, a n d I s u s p e c t i t ’s a m a tt e r t h a t m a y w e l l

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
e n d u p i n t h e c o u r t s o f t h i s c o u n tr y.
d is s e n t in g .

I wish to be recorded as

S o F o e t a K r ig e a ls o e x p r e s s e d s i m i la r v i e w s , a n d S u n a

Ve n t e r, t h e l a t e , s a id t h a t s h e m a y b e t h e y o u n g e s t a m o n g u s b u t s h e
b e li e v e s t h a t s h e s h o u l d n ’ t y o u k n o w k ic k o f h e r j o u r n a l is m c a r e e r i n
t h is f a s h i o n a n d t h a t s h e r e a ll y s h e f e l t th a t s h e . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e n e e d e d t o ta k e a p o s i ti o n .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

Ye s a n d s h e t o o k a fi r m s t a n d i n

t h a t m e e ti n g a n d s a id t h a t s h e w o u l d n ’ t a s s o c ia t e h e r s e l f w it h th is .
T h e r e a f te r w e – i t w a s n ’ t th a t c a u s tic a d i s c u s s i o n , i t w a s n ’ t y o u k n o w
10

a n d N t a ti s e e m e d t o b e q u it e c o m p o s e d a n d h e – N t a ti Te b e l e t h a t is ,
s e e m e d y o u k n o w t o a c c e p t y o u r r i g h t t o d i s s e n t a n d J o n a th a n t h e n
p r o c e e d e d w i th t h e m e e ti n g a n d h e c l o s e d t h e m e e ti n g , I h a v e e v e n
r e a d h is a ff id a v i t a b o u t w h a t ti m e th e m e e ti n g c lo s e d a n d h is v e r s i o n
t a ll i e s w i t h m i n e .

And then thereafter we went about our business and

w e t h o u g h t t h a t N t a ti ’s d e c is io n w o u l d h o ld , b u t s o o n a f te r th a t w e w e r e
c a l l e d in t o h is o ffi c e a n d s e r v e d w i th s u s p e n s i o n l e t t e r s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e y o u g o t s e r v e d w i t h s u s p e n s i o n l e t te r s b o t h

a t t h e fir s t m e e ti n g a n d a t t h e d i a r y m e e ti n g d i d h e e v e r p r o v i d e
w h a t e v e r i t i s t h a t h e r e g a r d e d a s j u s t i fic a t io n fo r s a y i n g t h a t
20

1 . T h e p r o t e s ts i n P r e t o r ia s h o u l d n o t b e s h o w n p r o p e r ly t h e w a y i t
s h o u l d b e s h o w n b y j o u r n a l is ts a n d
2 . F o r s a y i n g t h a t t h e p r o te s ts b y th e r i g h t t o k n o w o r g a n is a ti o n
should not be shown.
Did he provide any reasons?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : A s – s e v e r a l p o i n ts h e s a id t h a t h e

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h a s h is i n s tr u c t io n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d i d h e e v e r s a y w h o t h e in s t r u c t i o n c a m e fr o m ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

No but I do not need to be two

y e a r s o l d to h a v e g u e s s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n e w w h e r e i t c a m e fr o m ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : I n d e e d I d i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D i d i t c o m e fr o m M r M o ts o e n e n g ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Oh sorry I beg your pardon.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o I a m d o n e y o u c a n c o n ti n u e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A r e y o u f i n is h e d ? I a p o l o g is e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y. O r d i n a r i ly w h e n t h e r e i s d e c e n t a s
t h e r e w a s a t th is m e e ti n g w h a t u s u a ll y h a p p e n s b e c a u s e l o o k y o u h a v e
r e c o r d e d y o u r d is a p p r o v a l o f w h a t e v e r i t i s th a t t h e y w a n t e d t o d o a n d
t h e j o u r n a li s t s w e r e g o i n g t o – th e y w a n t e d t o c o v e r t h is s t o r y.

20

So if

t h e n t h e r e is t h a t k i n d o f d is s e n t i n g v o ic e w h a t w o u ld o r d in a r ily h a p p e n
s a y if y o u a r e in a n o r m a l e n v ir o n m e n t .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I : I n a n o r m a l e n v ir o n m e n t d is s e n t is
a c c o m m o d a t e d w e a g r e e to d i s a g r e e a n d s o m e b o d y w i th t h e p o w e r t o
d e c i d e d e c id e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : I g u e s s th a t i f i t is th e e d it o r w h o d e c i d e s th a t i s m o r e
a c c e p ta b l e t o t h e j o u r n a l is ts i n th e n e w s r o o m t h a n i f i t is s o m e b o d y
outside of the newsroom, is that right?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

B u t g e n e r a l ly n e w s r o o ms a r e n o t

peaceful places they are…
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e a r e d e b a t e s a n d d i s a g r e e m e n ts .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : T h e r e a r e [i n d is t in c t] o f i d e a s , th e y
10

a r e m a r k e t p la c e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d r o b u s t d e b a te s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : O f t h e tr a d e o f id e a s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

But there everybody is used to that and

e v e r y b o d y k n o w s i n t h e e n d t h e e d i t o r h a s a j o b to d o a n d s o m e ti m e s
y o u w i ll a g r e e w i th h i m o r h e r, s o m e t i m e s y o u w i ll n o t a g r e e b u t w h a t is
m o s t u n a c c e p t a b l e is s o m e b o d y f r o m o u ts i d e d e c i d in g ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

N o t r e a l ly.

C h a ir I s h o u l d h a v e

t o l d y o u t h a t t h is t e n u r e o f m i n e a t th e S A B C w a s my t h ir d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

I h a d h a d p r e v i o u s te n u r e s i n

d i ff e r e n t e n v ir o n m e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

A n d i n t h e e n v ir o n m e n t le d u n d e r

Z w e l a k h e S is u lu a d e b a t e w a s o n e o f th e m o s t w e lc o m e t h i n g s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I: B e c a u s e it w o u l d l e a d u s to b e t te r
p o li c i e s a n d th e m o r e v ig o r o u s th e b e t t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : A n d i t e n li v e n s t h e n e w s r o o m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

A n d it c r e a t e d f o r a c e r t a in

p a s s i o n , a c e r ta i n a ir o f fr e e d o m , a c e r t a i n Pr a g u e s p r i n g t h a t t h e
S A B C e x p e r ie n c e d w h e n w e w e r e t h e r e i n t h e d y i n g y e a r s o f t h e
apartheid regime.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

So I was accustomed to that

culture.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

A n d I w a s f a i li n g t o a d a p t t o t h e

n e w c u l tu r e w h e r e s il e n c e a n d c o m p li a n c e a n d r o b o ti c d e c is i o n s w e r e
t h e o r d e r o f th e d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w w h e n t h e r e w e r e i n s tr u c t io n s s u c h a s t h e s e t h a t
y o u w e r e v e r y o p p o s e d t o a n d t h a t c a m e fr o m t h e C O O o r a c ti n g C O O
d i d y o u c o n s id e r t h a t y o u c o u l d g o t o th e C E O o r a c t in g C E O a n d s a y
20

b u t t h is is w h a t t h e C O O is s a y in g a n d i t i s u n a c c e p t a b l e t o u s a n d t h a t
m a y b e t h e r e c o u l d b e a n i n t e r v e n t i o n o r w a s t h e r e – w a s t h e p o s i ti o n
t h a t n o in t e r v e n ti o n fr o m t h e C E O w a s e x p e c t e d t o h a p p e n o n c e th e
COO had spoken?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:
upwards

w h ic h

f o r m e r ly

rested

with

F o r m e r ly th e r e is a r e f e r r a l
the

Page 160 of 230

CEO

prior

to

Hlaudi

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M o ts o e n e n g in a u g u r a ti n g e d i t o r ia l p o l ic y o f 2 0 1 6 . A n d C h a ir h e – w h e n
h e in a u g u r a t e d i t a t t h a t B o s P a r a d e i n M a g a li e s h e b a s i c a ll y s a i d h e is
t h e A l p h a a n d th e O m e g a . N o w a f t e r th a t e v e r y C E O w a s a l a y in g d u c k
fr a n k l y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ev e r y C E O w a s d e a d i n t h e w a te r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w a s – a f te r t h a t w a s h e lik e t h e [i n d i s t i n c t ] C E O ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : H e w a s t h e A l p h a a n d th e O m e g a .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e O m e g a .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Thank you.

S o th e n th is is a ll – t h e n

t h o s e m e e t in g s h a p p e n e d a n d t h e n le t u s g e t t o t h e m e e ti n g t h e n w h e r e
y o u w e r e fi n a ll y d is m is s e d .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

S o C h a ir w e g e t c a ll e d u p o n e b y

o n e th e t h r e e o f u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is y o u r s e l f, M r Kr ig e a n d M s P i ll a y ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : A n d S u n a , th e l a t e S u n a Ve n t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h M s Ve n t e r.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON: So does that make four?
MS THANDEKA GQUBULE-MBEKI:

T h e t h r e e o f u s . Th e o th e r s w e r e

p a r t y t o a d i ff e r e n t d i s c i p l i n a r y b u t t h o s e d is c ip li n a r i e s h a p p e n e d o n
t h e s a m e d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y s o i t w a s y o u r s e lf , M s Ve n t e r a n d Mr K r i g e ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : B u t w e w e r e c a l le d i n o n e b y o n e .
CHAIRPERSON: One by one.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : A n d s e p a r a t e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.[
MS THANDEKA GQUBULE-MBEKI:

In f a c t w e d i d n o t k n o w t h a t w e

h a d b e e n c a l le d i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:
10

U n ti l w e c a l le d e a c h o t h e r w h e n

t h e r u m o u r s b e g a n t o p e r c o l a te .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

L a t e r i n t h e e v e n in g a n d it w a s a

q u e s t io n o f o h s o y o u a ls o a n d y o u a ls o a n d w e t h e n c o n c l u d e d t h a t t h e
t h r e e o f u s h a d s p o k e n o u t i n t h a t m e e ti n g . T h i s m u s t b e t h e p r e m is e
o n w h ic h t h e y a r e g o in g to m o v e a g a i n s t u s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o w h e n y o u w e r e c a ll e d y o u w e r e j u s t g iv e n t h e

le t t e r o f s u s p e n s i o n w it h o u t a n y d is c u s s i o n o f a n y c o n s e q u e n c e r e a l ly
o r th e r e w a s s o m e d i s c u s s i o n ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:
20

W h e n I w a s c a ll e d a n d D a d e

N d e b e l e w a s s e a t e d t o m y le f t a n d S e b o l e le D i t lh a k a n y a n e w a s s e a te d
t o m y r i g h t . O p p o s i te m e w a s t h e h e a d o f H R M a n i A l o o h e a d o f H R i n
t h e n e w s d iv i s i o n . A n d I s a i d to D a d e N d e b e l e , D a d e N d e b e l e t h is is
u n l a w f u l a n d I h a t e to s a y th is t o y o u b u t w e a r e g o i n g to r e la t e t h r o u g h
t h e c o u r t s n o w. A n d I tu r n e d t o S e b o l e l e a n d I s a i d t h a t s h e i s a v e r y
s w e e t h u m a n b e i n g a n d i t is a p it y t h a t w e s t a n d a t o d d s . A n d I w a s

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t h e n a c c o m p a n i e d t o m y o ffi c e t o c l e a r my d e s k a n d th e n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e s u s p e n s i o n w a s w i t h i m m e d i a te e ff e c t?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

It was immediate.

D a d e N d e b e le

w a s v e r y fir m t h a t t h e c o r p o r a t io n h a s d e c id e d to p a r t w a y s w i th m e . I
– w h e n fr o m t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON:

So – but this – I am sorry – was – this was a

s u s p e n s i o n a n d n o t a d is m i s s a l a s y e t .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : N o i t i s a s u s p e n s i o n n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t .
10

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I: B u t D a d e N d e b e l e a t th a t m e e ti n g
w a s v e r y fir m t h a t a n d t h e c o r p o r a ti o n h a s d e c i d e d t o p a r t w a y s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th a t is – i s t h a t t h e t e r m h e u s e d p a r t w a y s ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

Ye s t o p a r t w a y s a n d t h e y h a v e

m a d e t h i s d e c is io n a n d h e i n s is t e d t h a t I s ig n t h e le t t e r a n d r e c e i p t o f
t h e l e t te r w h ic h I d i d d o a n d t h e n M a n i a c c o m p a n i e d m e t o m y o ff ic e
a n d to o k m y c lo c k i n g d e v ic e s a n d b y t h e n m y c o l le a g u e s c o u ld s e e
w h a t is g o i n g o n .

I t l o o k s li k e a fr o g m a r c h o u t o f t h e b u il d i n g a n d

p e o p l e a r e tr y i n g t o h o l d o n t o m e . A n d t o s a y g o o d b y e a n d p e o p l e a r e
b a ff l e d a n d I c o u l d n o t e v e n s a y g o o d b y e to m y t e a m s .
20

And so he

m a r c h e d m e o u t o f th e b u il d i n g b u t o d d l y a s – t h e S A B C i s a v e r y
p a r a d o x i c a l p l a c e . I t is a v e r y l o v i n g h u m a n e p l a c e b u t i t i s a – a ls o
c a n b e a v e r y v ic io u s p l a c e .

S o a s h e is m a r c h i n g m e t o w a r d s t h e

t u r n s ti le s w h e r e y o u k n o w th e g a t e s o f n o r e t u r n h e a s k s m e i f I c a n
h u g h i m t o s a y g o o d b y e b e c a u s e w e b a s i c a l ly h a d a g o o d r e la t io n s h ip .
S o t h e w h o l e t h i n g a b o u t c a p t u r e is t h a t i t r u p tu r e s r e l a ti o n s h i p s i t

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v ic ti m i s e s p e o p le , it d e v a s t a t e s , it c r e a t e s tr a u m a .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

A l r i g h t . S o t h e n th a t is h o w y o u –

t h e n a f t e r th a t th e n t h e r e w a s a d is m is s a l t h a t – b e c a u s e y o u …
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : T h e n a ft e r t h a t …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a t is th e s u s p e n s i o n t h a t y o u d e a l i n g

with yes.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

Then after that I went to the

Fr e e d o m o f Ex p r e s s i o n I n s t it u t e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe before – I am sorry
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : To a r r a n g e a r e s u lt .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. T h e l e t te r s a i d y o u w e r e s u s p e n d e d u n t il
what would happen?

U n ti l a h e a r i n g o r w h a t ?

U s u a lly y o u w o u l d b e

s u s p e n d e d p e n d in g a d is c ip li n a r y h e a r i n g .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

D e p u ty C h ie f J u s t ic e I th in k i t is

id e n t ic a l t o K r iv a n i ’s – n o K r i v a n i d i d n o t – i t is id e n t ic a l t o K r i g e ’s
s u s p e n s i o n l e t t e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm I…
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I th i n k I s a w i t w a s [ m u m b li n g ]
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y m a y b e – m a y b e s h e c a n h a v e a l o o k a t i t.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t is – d o y o u h a v e a n y r e c o ll e c t io n w h e th e r i t s a id
something along those lines that you were suspended to and you must
a p p e a r a t a d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r in g o n a c e r t a i n d a t e a n d t h a t t h e s e w e r e
t h e c h a r g e s t h a t y o u w o u ld f a c e ?

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
MS THANDEKA GQUBULE-MBEKI:

I t h i n k i t m e n ti o n e d s o m e t h i n g

a b o u t a r e fu s a l to c a r r y o u t a n i n s tr u c t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : S o m e t h i n g a b o u t i n s u b o r d i n a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n s u b o r d in a ti o n y e s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I: A n d – b u t i t d i d n o t n a m e a d a t e o n
w h ic h w e w o u ld b e a ff o r d e d a n o p p o r t u n i ty.
CHAIRPERSON: A hearing.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : To d e f e n d o u r s e lv e s .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

B u t I m a y b e m is t a k e n .

I cannot

r e c a l l th e r e h a v e b e e n s o m a n y l e t t e r s a n d s o m u c h l i ti g a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y, o k a y. T h e y w ill c h e c k i f y o u th i n k it is t h e
same.

B u t i f la t e r o n t h e r e i s a c h a n c e o f g e tt i n g th e o n e t h a t w a s

a d d r e s s e d to y o u th a t w o u l d b e h e l p fu l .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : I c a n m a k e it a v a i l a b le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s o k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u d i d y o u u lt i m a t e ly

a p p e a r t h e n b e fo r e d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g ?
20

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

W e ll o n t h a t d a y a f te r I w a s

suspended I drove out and I went back to the FXI and I phoned around
a n d o b v io u s ly I g o t i n t o u c h w i th B u s i a n d t o o r e a ll y to o r g a n is e a
r e v o l t t o b r in g i t o n b e c a u s e w e f e lt t h a t w e o w e d it t o t h e c o u n tr y to b e
h e a r d a n d t o b e h e a r d o n t h is is s u e . S o w e o r g a n is e d a m e e t i n g w i t h
C i v il S o c ie ty.

W e s a t a t D e L a C r è m e i n M e lv il le ir o n ic a lly w h e r e w e

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u s e d t o s i t to d e b a t e h o w w e w o u l d h a v e a p u b l ic b r o a d c a s t e r in t h e
Z w e l a k a d a y s in s te a d o f a s t a t e b r o a d c a s t e r. A n d w e d e c id e d t o m a r c h
t o th e c o n s t i tu t io n a l c o u r t a n d t h a t Kr i g e , my s e l f a n d S u n a w o u l d le a d
t h e m a r c h . A n d i t i s f o r o u r s t a te m e n ts a s w e m a r c h e d a n d a s w e d r e w
a tt e n ti o n o f t h e p u b l ic t o th e h a p p e n i n g s a t t h e S A B C t h a t M r
M o ts o e n e n g a n d h i s c o h o r t s r e fe r r e d t o a s y o u r w il f u l s p e a k i n g o u t o f
turn, speaking out to the press and so on.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

B u t y o u m i g h t n o t r e c a l l th e e x a c t w o r d i n g th a t w a s

u s e d t o d e s c r ib e t h e c h a r g e s o r w h a t t h e l e t t e r s a id y o u h a d d o n e
wrong but you would – do you remember that whatever the wording was
it r e la t e d t o th e s t a n d y o u h a d ta k e n a g a i n s t t h is p o l ic y a n d a g a in s t t h e
in s t r u c t i o n s t h a t h a v e b e e n g i v e n th a t y o u h a v e t o l d m e a b o u t .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

Indeed.

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t m u c h y o u k n o w.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : T h a t m u c h I k n o w i n d e e d i t i s t r u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n . A n d
t h e n – a n d t h e n w h e n – w e r e y o u th e n b r o u g h t b e f o r e s o m e o n e w h o
20

w a s g o i n g to d i s c i p li n e y o u ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And who was that person?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : W e w e r e g iv e n 2 4 h o u r s ’ n o t ic e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

To a p p e a r b e f o r e a d i s c ip li n a r y

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
h e a r in g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

T h e r e w e r e t w o , t h r e e p e o p le i n

t h e d is c i p l in a r y h e a r i n g o n th e o t h e r s i d e . A n d t h e r e w e r e th r e e o f u s .
T h e r e w a s m y s e l f , S u n a Ve n t e r a n d F o e t e K r i g e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d t h e d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e e d e d ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

No.

I t w a s n o t m e a n t to b e t h e y

w e r e n o t s e r i o u s , t h e y w e r e j o k i n g , t h e y w e r e j u s t k ic k in g t i m e a n d t h e y
ju s t a l l o w e d th e l a w y e r to a r g u e a b o u t l e g a l r e p r e s e n ta t io n a n d th e y
10

p o s tp o n e d th e h e a r in g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d t h e n a f te r t h a t p o s tp o n e m e n t i s
t h a t th e m a t t e r t h a t e n d e d u p in t h e la b o u r c o u r t?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

A f t e r th e p o s t p o n e m e n t w e w e r e

ju s t fi r e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d t h e n – b u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. T h e r e w a s – w a s i t M r K r i g e o r Ms P il l a y
o h i t w a s Ms P i ll a y w h o w a s a s k e d t o s u b m i t r e p r e s e n ta t io n s b y f o u r
o ’c l o c k o n a c e r t a i n d a t e I t h i n k .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s w e a ll d i d th a t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t d id n o t h a p p e n – o h i t h a p p e n e d w i th y o u a s
w e ll ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : W e a ll d i d t h a t. Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w a s th e d a t e t h e s a m e ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : I t w a s a ll t h e s a m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, o k a y.

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M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

A n d t h e n a f t e r th a t t h e y r e j e c t e d

o u r r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s a n d th e y d i s m is s e d u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

A n d t h i s i s w h e n w e lo d g e d t h e

matter in the labour court.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Labour court.
C H A I R P E R S O N : L a b o u r c o u r t. Ye s o k a y.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

A n d th is is w h e n w e to o k o u r

c o n s ti t u ti o n a l c o u r t m a t t e r u p .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Th a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u . I w o u l d li k e
t o – u s t h e n to d e a l w i t h s p e c i fi c m a t te r s b e c a u s e n o w t h a t y o u h a v e
c o n fir m e d w h a t Mr K r i g e a n d M s P il la y h a d te s t i fi e d t o a b o u t y o u r
h a v i n g b e e n d is m is s e d f r o m t h e S A B C I t h i n k y o u d e a l w it h q u it e
i m p o r t a n t t o p ic s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : R ig h t .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : I n y o u r s t a te m e n t a t p a g e 3 . In s ta n c e s o f
p o li t ic a l in t e r f e r e n c e in t h e n e w s a g e n d a a n d m a n d a te o f th e S A B C a n d
y o u d e a l th e r e w it h a b o u t t w o i n s t a n c e s a n d I w o u l d lik e y o u t o ju s t

20

t a k e t h e C h a ir th r o u g h t h o s e .

T h e o n e r e f e r s t o w h a t is – w a s

p o p u l a r ly k n o w n a s t h e N a n a g a t e a n d t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s a r o u n d w h a t
w a s s u p p o s e d t o h a p p e n i n th e n e w s a b o u t th a t m a t te r q u i c k l y.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

M a y I r e m in d y o u s o th a t I a m

e c o n o m ic s e d i t o r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

S o t h e is s u e a r o u n d N a n a g a t e

a ffe c te d m e a n d m y d e p a r t m e n t . I t w a s o u r r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o t e ll t h e
S o u th A fr ic a n p u b lic a b o u t t h e v a l u e o f t h e m o n e y i n t h e ir p o c k e ts , t h e
p l u n g e o f t h e r a n d , t h e i n fl a ti o n a r y i m p lic a ti o n s o f t h a t a s w e ll a s t h e
r is e in th e p r ic e o f t h e b o n d y i e l d s a n d e v e r y t h i n g t h a t h a p p e n e d
a r o u n d t h e s l u m p in t h e c u r r e n c y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B a s i c a ll y th e e c o n o m ic i m p lic a ti o n s o f w h a t h a p p e n e d
a s a r e s u l t o f th e d is m i s s a l o f M r N e n e ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I: Th e m o s t – y o u w il l r e c a l l Si r t h a t
it w a s th e 9 t h D e c e m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON: 9th December 2015.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:
day was the 10th.

Ye s i n d e e d a n d th a t t h e f o l l o w in g

S o t h e fo ll o w i n g d a y w e r u n a c r o s s t h e S A B C

p l a t fo r m s u p d a t e s o n t h e c u r r e n c y, t h e c u r r e n c i e s o f o th e r c o u n t r i e s a s
w e ll a s t h e e m e r g i n g m a r k e ts a n d t h e Br ix c u r r e n c i e s . S o w e r e p o r t o n
t h e s e a s i s o u r d u t y a n d o u r m a n d a t e e v e r y s i n g le d a y.
20

Th e – w h a t

m o v e s c u r r e n c i e s is o u r b r e a d a n d b u t te r. W e n e e d t o a n a ly s e t h a t . W e
n e e d t o b r i n g i n a n a l y s ts w h o e x p l a i n w h a t is h a p p e n i n g s o t h a t p e o p l e
c a n m a k e g o o d c o m m e r c i a l d e c is io n s . P e o p l e c a n tr a d e m e a n i n g f u lly
a n d in a w e ll- i n f o r m e d m a n n e r a n d p e o p le c a n m a k e l o n g t e r m
e c o n o m ic d e c is io n s a ff e c t in g t h e ir d e b t le v e ls , t h e ir in t e r e s ts , w h a t
in t e r e s t r a t e s t h e y w o u ld g e t fr o m t h e b a n k s a n d s o o n a n d s o f o r th .

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
S o w h e n N o t h a n d o M a s e k o a tt e m p t e d fi r s t v e r y g in g e r l y t o e n g a g e m e
a s k in g m e to v e e r a w a y fr o m m e n ti o n i n g t h e c o n d u c t o f t h e P r e s i d e n t
a n d th e p o li t ic a l f a c to r s m o v in g th e r a n d o n t h o s e d a y s .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h i s is n o w i n r e l a ti o n to t h e 9 t h D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5

w h e r e a b o u t a r e w e w h e n th a t h a p p e n e d w h e n …
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : W e a r e o n th e 1 0 t h .
CHAIRPERSON: On the 10th.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : O r th e 11 t h .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay
10

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : A n d i t is a lr e a d y a s to r m a n d t h e
team is very busy at the moment.

S o i n i ti a lly I a m b a ff l e d b y t h i s

a s s e r t io n a n d I d o n o t r e s p o n d i m m e d i a t e l y. I n s t e a d I g o a n d c h e c k t h e
e m e r g i n g m a r k e t i n d e x . N o w t h e e m e r g in g m a r k e t i n d e x is – th e r e a r e
t w o . Th e r e is t h e J P M o r g a n o n e a n d t h e n t h e r e i s t h e g e n e r a l M S C I
r ig h t .

S o it w i ll t e ll u s h o w th e r a n d i s d o i n g in r e la t io n to i t s p e e r s .

B e c a u s e th e e m e r g i n g m a r k e t c u r r e n c i e s n o r m a lly tr a c k a c e r t a i n – t h e y
r e s p o n d t o e x t e r n a l o r [ i n d is ti n c t ] f a c t o r s i n a s i m i la r fa s h i o n .

For

e x a m p l e th a t D e c e m b e r h a d b e e n a v e r y b u s y D e c e m b e r f o r th e
m a r k e t s . T h e U n it e d S t a t e s w a s t i d y i n g u p a n d m o p p in g u p w h e n i t h a d
20

c h e a p e n e d i t s r a n d s o t h e y w e r e m o p p i n g u p e x c e s s l i q u id i ty in t h e ir
fi n a n c i a l s y s t e m .
program.

T h e y w e r e t a p e r i n g o ff t h e q u a n t it a ti v e e a s i n g

S o t h a t w o u ld h a v e h a d a n e ffe c t o f s t r e n g t h e n i n g t h e ir

currency and weakening the emerging market ones and so on and so
f o r th . I a ls o c h e c k e d w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g in N o v e m b e r w it h t h e r a n d .
T h e r a n d w a s d o i n g w e ll c o m p a r e d t o it s p e e r s s o m e t h i n g v a r i a n c e o f

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
7 % a n d I a m n o t o n e w h o b e li e v e s t h a t n e c e s s a r il y a s tr o n g c u r r e n c y is
a g o o d th in g o r a w e a k o n e is a g o o d t h in g i t is a ll r e l a ti v e . B u t o n t h i s
– o n th e s e d a y s th e r a n d w a s d o i n g s o m e t h i n g u n i q u e a n d w h a t I f o u n d
s tr a n g e a b o u t t h e r e q u e s t n o t t o lo o k a t t h e p o l i ti c a l e c o n o m y a n d t h e
e v e n t s – p o l it ic a l e v e n ts th a t m a y h a v e h a d e ffe c t s o n t h e r a n d s , th e
e q u it i e s m a r k e t s , t h e b o n d m a r k e ts a n d th e h u g e s e l l- o ff th a t h a p p e n e d
a s a r e s u l t. W a s t h a t Br a z il w a s g o in g t h r o u g h s o m e t h in g s i m i la r th a t
D e c e m b e r a n d I n e v e r g o t a r e q u e s t n o t to m e n t io n t h e i m p e a c h m e n t o f
D e l M a r u s o a n d t h e r e s i g n a ti o n o f t h e f i n a n c e m i n i s t e r in B r a z i l a n d
10

M e x ic o h a d i ts o w n w o b b le s a t t h e s a m e ti m e s o a n d t h e ir c u r r e n c ie s
r e s p o n d e d y o u k n o w to t h o s e h a p p e n i n g s . S o t h e is s u e o f w h e t h e r t h e
r a n d is tr a d in g a f a ir v a lu e – w h a t is d e t e r m i n i n g t h e v a l u e – th e
c u r r e n t v a lu e o f th e r a n d is o u r b r e a d a n d b u t t e r a t t h e e c o n o m i c s
d e p a r t m e n t. S o t o b e a s k e d n o t to t e ll t h e p u b l ic a b o u t w h a t is d r iv in g
h e v a l u e o f t h e r a n d i n th e ir p o c k e t f o r m e is a n o t h e r tr e a s o n o u s
request.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

A n d J a s o I – I b a s ic a lly d e c id e d

n o t te ll th e m e m b e r s o f m y t e a m a n d ju s t t o p r o c e e d w i th c o v e r in g t h e
20

r a n d a s e v e r y b o d y e ls e w a s d o i n g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I s it e v e n p o s s ib l e n o t t o t a k e in t o a c c o u n t
t h e p o li t ic a l c li m a t e w h e n y o u lo o k in g a t t h e p e r f o r m a n c e o f th e r a n d o r
is i t s o m e th i n g t h a t y o u c a n a c tu a lly ju s t ig n o r e a n d f o c u s o n th e fi n e
[i n d is t in c t] m a r k e ts w i th o u t e v e n l o o k i n g a t th e p o li t ic a l c li m a t e ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I: B u t t h a t i s n o t p o s s i b le to e x tr i c a t e

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
p o li t ic a l u n c e r t a in ty t o m a r k e t m o v e m e n ts .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h e n y o u w e r e a s k e d t o – n o t t o d e a l w i th t h is i n
y o u r c o v e r a g e w a s t h a t s o m e th in g y o u e x p e c te d b y th e n t h a t c o u ld
h a p p e n a n d it c o u ld c o m e fr o m t h e p e r s o n t h a t c a m e fr o m o r i t w a s
s tr a n g e t h a t s h e c a m e t o y o u – th a t s h e c a m e w i th th a t in s t r u c ti o n o r
request.
MS THANDEKA GQUBULE-MBEKI:

I t w a s n o t s o m u c h s tr a n g e a s it

w a s a l a r m i n g a n d a n n o y in g a n d t h e – t h e r e q u e s t a n d t h e t h i n g s t h a t
10

s h e s a i d in tr y i n g t o p r e v a i l o n m e li k e t h e r a n d h a s b e e n t r a d i n g b a d ly
f o r a w h i le . I t i s n o t th e P r e s i d e n t ’s b e h a v i o u r t h a t h a s d o n e t h i s a s
w e ll a s …
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w h y w a s s h e c o m in g to y o u ?

W h y d i d s h e li k e

t h i n k y o u w e r e g o i n g to s a y i t is b e c a u s e o f th e Pr e s i d e n t n e c e s s a r il y ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I: N o s h e is c o m i n g t o m e t o p r e v a il
o n m e n o t t o fo ll o w t h e g e n e r a l n a r r a ti v e a r o u n d .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh outside.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : O u t s i d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

A n d t o d i m t h e s p o t li g h t o n th e

c o n d u c t o f t h e Pr e s id e n t a n d i ts e c o n o m ic i m p a c t.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

And you refer to that

c o n d u c t o f h e r s a s b e i n g i ll o g i c a l a n d u n - j o u r n a l is t ic in p a r a g r a p h 9 , is
that correct?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

In d e e d I s t il l m a i n ta i n it w a s

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
ill o g i c a l a n d u n - jo u r n a l is tic .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. And then in paragraph …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y, s o r r y M s N o r m a n . T h a t in s t r u c t i o n is i t o n e o f
t h o s e i n r e s p e c t o f w h ic h h e w o u l d s a y i t w a s n o t ju s t c o m i n g fr o m h e r
it w a s c o m i n g fr o m t h e C O O e v e n t h o u g h s h e m i g h t n o t h a v e s a i d s o
herself or you do not know?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

I d o n o t k n o w h o w e v e r a b iz a r r e

s e t o f e v e n ts h a p p e n e d . T h e – a S u n d a y s o o n a f te r t h a t w e c a r r ie d t h e
v ie w s o f th e P r e s i d e n t o n w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d a n d b a s ic a l ly P r e s i d e n t
10

Z u m a s a i d t h a t it w a s a n o v e r r e a c t io n r e a lly a n d t h a t t h e m a r k e t s h a d
o v e r - r e a c t e d a n d h e a ls o s a id t h a t t h e r a n d h a d b e e n tr a d in g b a d ly fo r
a w h i l e a n d h e a ls o s a i d s o m e t h in g to t h e e ffe c t t h a t h e d o e s n o t
b e li e v e t h a t t h e c u r r e n c y s h o u ld b e s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u c a n tr a d e i n . I t
is – h e s e e m e d t o s a y th a t it s h o u l d b e ju s t a s t o r e v a l u e a n d a f o r m o f
e x c h a n g e b u t n o t s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u c a n t r a d e in w h ic h w a s b e s i d e t h e
p o i n t t o w h a t w a s a c tu a lly g o i n g o n a n d t h e a c t u a l v a lu e l o s t in t h e
e c o n o m y a n d th e o b l i g a t io n w e h a v e a s th e p u b li c b r o a d c a s t e r t o
b a s ic a lly t e l l t h e p u b l ic w h a t th e i r c u r r e n c y i s d o i n g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .

And then can

y o u a ls o h i g h l i g h t a n o t h e r i n c i d e n t w h e n y o u d e a l w i th t h e m a n d a t e o f
the SABC at page – at paragraph 10 page 4 where somebody handed
y o u a fi l e f o r y o u t o i n v e s t ig a t e . C o u l d y o u ta lk t o t h a t ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I: Ye s . N y a n a I w a s in h is o ff ic e a n d

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
w e – N y a n a a n d I. . l
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is M s N y a n a .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Mr N y a n a M o le t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M o l e te .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Mr.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t M o l e te o r
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : M o l e t e y e s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

H e h a n d e d m e t h i s f il e I t h in k

r a th e r r e lu c ta n tl y a n d h e s a id t h a t i t c o n t a i n e d a l le g a ti o n s a b o u t c e r ta in
m a c h in a ti o n s o r m is d e m e a n o u r s c o m m i t t e d b y P r a v i n G o r d h a n a t
S A R S . S o I t o o k th e fi le a n d I s a i d I w o u ld h a v e a l o o k a t i t .

I read

t h e fil e . T h e r e w a s a b s o l u te ly – i t w a s a w h o le l o t o f p e o p le r e c o r d e d
s p e a k i n g a b o u t M r Pr a v in G o r d h a n . A n d I c o u l d s e e n o w r o n g d o in g th a t
t h e y a r e a l le g in g .

I m e a n y e s i t is c e r t a i n ly i t a p p e a r e d t h e y d i d n o t

lik e h i m b u t t h a t is n o t a s t o r y.

A n d I – I j u s t ig n o r e d i t f o r a w h il e

tr y i n g t o t h in k w h a t t o d o a b o u t i t . A n d t h e n I w a s c a l le d b y a r e l a tiv e
20

w h o s a i d J i m i M a n y e s a y s th a t I a m s i t t in g o n a fi le a n d I a m s u p p o s e d
t o b e i n v e s t ig a ti n g t h is fi le a n d I a m s u p p o s e d t o d o s o m e t h in g a b o u t
t h is i n v e s ti g a ti o n . T h e n I t h e n t o l d N y a n a a n d t h e o t h e r s t h a t I w o u ld
d o s o m e th i n g a b o u t t h e fi le o n l y i f t h e p e o p l e m a k i n g t h e s e a l le g a ti o n s
w h ic h a r e v e r y fr i v o lo u s a s f a r a s I c o u l d s e e w o u ld g o a n d d e p o s e
t h e m s e l v e s i n a n a ff id a v i t a t a p o li c e s t a ti o n o r w h e r e v e r a n d o n c e

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c h a r g e s h a d b e e n o ff ic ia ll y p r o ffe r e d t o M r Pr a v in G o r d h a n I w o u ld th e n
f e t c h t h e d o c k e t a n d t h e f il e a n d t h e n I w o u ld d o s o m e t h i n g a b o u t i t
b e c a u s e I f e l t t h a t I w o u ld b e o p e n i n g t h e c o r p o r a t i o n a n d m y s e l f to a
d e f a m a ti o n s u i t w h ic h I c o u l d n o t h o n o u r a b l e a c q u i t my s e l f o f li k e h o w
w o u ld I g e t o u t o f t h a t ? A n d b e s id e s i t w o u l d b e fr u i tl e s s a n d w a s t e fu l
e x p e n d i t u r e I h a v e d e t e r m i n e d t h i s a n d u s in g m y j o u r n a lis t ic a n d
e d i to r i a l j u d g m e n t th a t t h is f il e is – t h e r e is n o s t o r y h e r e u n ti l i t is
o ffic i a l . A n d i f I w e r e t o j u s t r u n w i th t h i s fi le w h a t w o u l d I b e d o i n g to
b e s m ir c h s o m e b o d y ’s g o o d n a m e w h ic h h e h a s a r i g h t t o o n j u s t fu r i o u s
10

g r o u n d s . S o I d e c id e d t o t e l l N y a n a I t h i n k I a c tu a lly w r o te a n e m a i l t o
t h is e ff e c t t h a t l e t t h e p e o p l e m a k in g th e a l le g a t i o n s d e p o s e t h e m s e l v e s
u n d e r o a th i n a n a ffi d a v i t a n d g o to th e p o lic e a n d th e n o n c e t h e p o l ic e
h a v e c h a r g e d t h is g e n t le m a n I w il l g o a n d f e tc h t h e d o c k e t a n d th e fi le .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d M s M o l e te t e ll y o u w h e r e s h e g o t t h e fi le fr o m

that she was giving you?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I: I a m s o r r y to c o r r e c t y o u Si r it i s a
g e n tl e m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e fi r s t l in e o f .
20

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s I s e e t h e e r r o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : P a r a g r a p h 1 0 in b r a c k e t s it is w r i t te n M s c a n y o u s e e
that in your statement.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s S i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is a n e r r o r.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s i t is a n e r r o r.

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h i t is a m a n o k a y.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : I a p o l o g is e C h a ir. It is a m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s d i d h e t e ll y o u w h e r e h e g o t th e f il e fr o m w h e n h e
gave it to you?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I: I t h i n k c a s u a lly h e m e n ti o n e d th a t
Jimi Manye
CHAIRPERSON: Gave it to him?
10

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : J a
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : W a s a b i t a n x i o u s a b o u t
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : N o m o v e m e n t o n th is fi le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n t h e

ti m e n o w is fo u r o ’ c l o c k . T h i s w i tn e s s s ti ll h a s s o m e g r o u n d to c o v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I k n o w th e r e i s a l o t o f g r o u n d t o c o v e r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s , y e s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll t h e r e a r e tw o p o s s i b ili t ie s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D e p e n d in g o n w h a t t h e s it u a ti o n is t o m o r r o w in t e r m s
o f w it n e s s e s a n d in t e r m s o f M s G q u b u l e - M b e k i’s o w n s i t u a t i o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e c o u l d s to p a n d c o n ti n u e t o m o r r o w o r w e c o u l d

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
c o n ti n u e . I a m a v a il a b l e w e c o u l d c o n ti n u e u n ti l f iv e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I f y o u a r e a v a i la b le a n d M s G q u b i l e - M b e k i i s

a v a i la b le .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir I w o u ld p r e fe r t h a t w e c o n ti n u e
b e c a u s e I h a v e a r e q u e s t t o m a k e to y o u C h a ir a b o u t t o m o r r o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u ld t h a t b e c o n v e n i e n t to y o u ?
10

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : I n d e e d Sir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t l e t u s c o n ti n u e t h e n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n t h a n k y o u .

t h e n i n p a r a g r a p h 11 in
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r m a y b e w e s h o u l d ta k e a …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : J u s t a fiv e m i n u t e a d jo u r n m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e c o m f o r t b r e a k o f t e n m in u te s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t u s r e s u m e a t t e n p a s t fo u r.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We adjourn.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES

Page 177 of 230

So

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . L e t u s p r o c e e d .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .

Ms Gqubule-

M b e k i y o u s p e a k t h e n fr o m p a r a g r a p h 11 r i g h t u p t o - a l l t h e s u b
p a r a g r a p h s i n p a r a g r a p h 1 2 o f th e t h r e a t s t h e n t h a t t h e y d ir e c t e d a t
y o u a n d o t h e r j o u r n a l is ts - t h e S A B C e i g h t .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : I n d e e d .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

C o u ld y o u ju s t s u m m a r i s e b e c a u s e

t h e C h a i r p e r s o n h a s r e a d y o u r s ta t e m e n t?

J u s t s u m m a r is e b r ie f ly

t h o s e t h r e a t s t h a t y o u b e l i e v e t h a t th e y a r e - I a m n o t s u g g e s ti n g th a t
10

t h e r e is a n y th r e a ts a r e n o t i m p o r t a n t b u t ju s t t o s u m m a r i s e t h e o n e s
t h a t y o u w is h t o p l a c e o n r e c o r d .
CHAIRPERSON: And …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e t o a ls o e m p h a s is e t h a t th a t i s n o t t o

p r e s s u r is e y o u n o t t o t e l l y o u r s to r y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w. Yo u - y o u w o u l d k n o w w h a t y o u w o u l d li k e
t o p u t fo r w a r d a s p a r t o f te ll i n g t h e C o m m is s i o n w h a t y o u e x p e r i e n c e d
a n d - a n d s o i n t h e e n d w e w a n t t o d o j u s ti c e t o - t o t h a t w h il e - w h il e
20

you are here.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

T h a n k y o u D e p u ty C h ie f J u s t ic e .

O n - o n t h e p h o n e I r e c e iv e d t h e fo ll o w i n g t h r e a ts o n m y p h o n e . Tw o o f
t h e m w e r e m a i n l y d ir e c t e d a t S u n a Ve n t e r w h o f o r s o m e r e a s o n o u r
a s s a i l a n t s h a d d e c i d e d to f o c u s o n a n d to - t o te r r o r is e h e r a n d s o m e o f

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t h e m ju s t e n v e l o p e d u s i n t h i s a tt e m p t t o t e r r o r is e S u n a .

One of the

death threats that she received said:
“ E n o u g h g ir l , y o u a r e f ir s t to b l e e d t o d e a t h . ”
S o t h is is t h e o n e th a t w a s - w e b e l ie v e d ir e c t e d a t t h e l a t e
S u n a Ve n te r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

A n d it w a s r e c e iv e d o n Tu e s d a y

1 3 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 6 a t 1 7 : 0 5 p m b y S M S . I h a v e g iv e n m y p h o n e o v e r t o
t h e C o m m is s i o n …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : To th e F o r e n s ic s D e p a r t m e n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : To s c r u b t h r o u g h t h e s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Ye s a n d th e n t h e …
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : A n o t h e r o n e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: The second one, yes.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

A n o t h e r S M S a l s o fr o m t h e s a m e

n u m b e r 0 8 4 9 2 3 4 0 3 6 s a id t o u s , t h e B l a c k m e m b e r s o f th e S A B C e i g h t :
20

“ Tr a i t o r s p r o t e c ti n g y o u r W h i te fr i e n d s i n P a r l i a m e n t
w h o s t a r t e d t h is . Te ll i n g li e s a b o u t y o u r c o mr a d e s .
Yo u w e r e w a r n e d . W e d o n o t k il l Bl a c k s b u t s i t a n d
w a t c h t h e b l o o d f lo w. ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : P h e w.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : T h is t e x t m e s s a g e w a s r e c e iv e d b y

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
o th e r m e m b e r s o f t h e o t h e r m e m b e r s o f t h e S A B C e i g h t a n d it c a m e
fr o m t h a t s a m e n u m b e r 0 8 4 9 2 3 4 0 3 6 a s a n S M S .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e - t h e fir s t o n e .

Yo u s a i d i t w a s d ir e c te d a t

M s Ve n t e r ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u d i d n o t g e t i t fr o m h e r.

Yo u g o t it fr o m

a n o t h e r n u m b e r. I n o th e r w o r d s s h e is n o t t h e o n e w h o f o r w a r d e d i t t o
y o u t o s e e w h a t s h e h a d r e c e iv e d ?
10

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

W e h a d a W h a ts A p p g r o u p a n d

e v e r y t h i n g t h a t w e r e c e iv e d
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, was shared?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

W e ju s t d u m p e d o n - o n t h a t

WhatsApp group.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : ( C l e a r in g o f t h r o a t) , e x c u s e m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh.

So - so I was wondering whether - I was

w o n d e r i n g i t c a m e to y o u if i t w a s n o t s e n t - i f i t w a s d ir e c t e d a t h e r
a n d i t w a s n o t s e n t t o y o u b y h e r a n d I w a s w o n d e r i n g w h e th e r t h e id e a
20

w a s to i n te r m e d i a t e , t h r e a t e n y o u a s w e ll a n d o t h e r s b y le t ti n g y o u
k n o w w h a t w a s b e in g d ir e c t e d a t h e r b u t y o u s a y t h a t i t w a s …
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s s e n t t o t h e c o m m o n W h a ts A p p g r o u p ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : I t w a s s e n t t o - i t w a s s e n t t o S u n a
…

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : A n d S u n a th e n s h a r e d i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh.

I t w a s s e n t to h e r a n d th e n s h e s e n t i t - s h e -

she shared it on the - on the group …
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a ts A p p g r o u p ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s s i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : A n d th e n t h e s e c o n d o n e …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : W a s s e n t t o a ll o f u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : T h e e i g h t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : I n c l u d in g C a la t a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : A n d Vu y o Mv o k o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : A n d th e n o n M o n d a y …

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h o w - h o w f a r w a s t h is i n t e r m s o f t i m e n o w a n d
d a t e fr o m t h e d a t e w h e n y o u w e r e d is m is s e d ? W h e r e a r e w e i n t e r m s
of time when this was happening?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : T h e - t h e b u lk o f th e t h r e a ts c a m e
p o s t o u r r e i n s t a te m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A f t e r y o u h a d b e e n r e in s t a te d ?

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : A f t e r w e h a d b e e n r e i n s t a te d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . S o t h i s is li k e ly to h a v e h a p p e n e d a ft e r y o u h a d
been reinstated?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s s i r.
CHAIRPERSON: These two threats?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

C h a ir p e r s o n , m o s t o f t h e t h r e a t s

h a p p e n e d p o s t o u r r e in s t a t e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O h t h a t is - d o e s t h a t m e a n t h a t t h e r e m a y h a v e
b e e n q u i t e a v e r y te n s e o p p o s i t io n t o y o u r r e in s t a t e m e n t a n d t h o s e
10

p e o p l e m ig h t n o t h a v e w a n t e d y o u t o b e r e in s t a t e d ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

I n d e e d w h e n w e fir s t - u p o n o u r

r e i n s t a te m e n t w e w e r e t o l d b y o u r l a w y e r s t o r e p o r t t o w o r k a n d o n t h e
fir s t d a y t h a t w e r e p o r te d w o r k w e w e r e t u r n e d b a c k . T h e y c a m e t o th e
t u r n s ti le s to - t o m e e t u s t h e r e a n d t h e y s a i d y o u b e t te r g o b a c k . W e
a r e a p p e a l i n g a n d t h e n b y t h e e n d o f th a t d a y I r e m e m b e r I w a s a t a
c iv il s o c i e ty m e e ti n g o n t h e S A B C e i g h t . W e w e r e c a l l e d a n d to l d th a t
t h e S A B C i s n o w r e a d y to r e in s ta t e u s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Thank you and then you speak about

s o m e t h i n g t h a t h a p p e n e d o n M o n d a y, 1 8 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 7 .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

Ye s .

A p ic t u r e o f a c h i ld is o n a

f a k e Tw i t t e r a c c o u n t w h ic h - I d o n o t k n o w - i t i s - i t h a s g o t m y n a m e

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
o n it . T h is Tw i t t e r a c c o u n t a n d it h a s g o t my n a m e Th a n d e k a G q u b u l e
o n it a n d I d o n o t h a v e - I d o n o t o w n a Tw i t te r a c c o u n t o r a Tw i t t e r
h a n d l e o r a Tw i t t e r a d d r e s s . I a m n o t o n Tw i t te r a n d t h e s e p e o p le a r e
t w e e ti n g a ll s o r ts o f t h in g s a b o u t o t h e r p e o p l e .
I t a l m o s t lo o k s li k e i t is i n m y n a m e a n d I h a d to m a k e a n
a n n o u n c e m e n t a t w o r k t h a t t h is is n o t m y Tw it t e r h a n d le . T h i s i s j u s t
c r e a ti n g h e a t fo r m e . I - I h a v e n o i n te n ti o n o f g o i n g o n t o Tw i t t e r a n d
t h e n th e fo ll o w i n g S M S ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y. B e f o r e y o u - y o u m o v e o n fr o m t h a t
10

one.

Yo u m e n t i o n e d s o m e th in g a b o u t a p ic t u r e o f y o u r d a u g h t e r th a t

w a s l in k e d to t h e a c c o u n t.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :
Khani Gqubule

on

t h is

account

Ye s .
which

It is a p ic tu r e o f K h a n i I

hope

has

s in c e

been

d e m o b il is e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

S o t h e r o p in g in o f f a m ily a n d

p e o p l e ’s c h il d r e n i n a t t e m p ts t o i n v o l v e t h e m i n tr o u b le is - is m o s t
cruel.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
20

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : D e p u t y C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:
child.

I g u e s s t h a t th is w a s t o s a y w e k n o w y o u r - y o u r

W e k n o w y o u r d a u g h te r o r s o m e th in g l ik e t h a t a s p a r t o f

in ti m i d a ti o n o r t h r e a ts m a y b e .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : I d o n o t k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.

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ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O b v i o u s ly y o u w o u l d b e c o n c e r n e d i f p e o p l e w h o a r e
t h r e a t e n i n g y o u k n o w y o u r c h i ld .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e f o r e c a n id e n t i fy o r r e c o g n is e h e r …
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Somewhere?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

So

the

following

SMS

w h ic h

a p p e a r s t o h a v e b e e n d ir e c te d a t n o t o n l y M s Ve n te r b u t s e n d i n g t h i s
m e s s a g e I t h i n k t o a ll S A B C e i g h t i t s a i d :
“ To

scared

to

go

to

Parliament

fo r c in g

your

c o m r a d e s to b e tr a y t h e m s e lv e s fo r y o u r a g e n d a .
W e h a v e b e e n p a t ie n t . W a r n e d y o u . ”
It came from the number 0784923436.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

Ye s a n d I w o u ld i m a g i n e w it h a l l

t h e s e t h r e a ts t h a t y o u r e c e i v i n g o n y o u r p h o n e s y o u w o u l d h a v e th e n
20

h a d to a p p r o a c h th e p o li c e ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : W e a p p r o a c h e d t h e p o l ic e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W h a t h a p p e n e d ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

Several times we met with the

p o li c e a n d w e w e r e in t e r v ie w e d . W e o ff e r e d t h e m o u r p h o n e s a n d th e
p o li c e n e v e r c a m e to o u r h e l p a t a l l .

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e y to o k s t a t e m e n t s , t h e y t o o k y o u r p h o n e s .

D id

t h e y c o m e b a c k t o s a y o u r i n v e s ti g a t i o n h a s c h a l le n g e s b e c a u s e o f A ,
B , C , D o r w e - t h e r e is n o w a y w e c a n e s t a b li s h w h o w a s b e h i n d th is
thing?

D i d th e y c o m e b a c k t o m a k e t h a t r e p o r t b a c k o r a n y t h i n g l ik e

that?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : T h e y - t h e y d i d s a y t h a t th e t h r e a t s
w e r e b e i n g m a d e b y - t h r o u g h th o s e d i s p o s a b l e p h o n e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : B u r n p h o n e s a p p a r e n t ly …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : A n d t h a t th e r e is n o w a y t o d is c e r n
w h o a c t u a lly w a s s e n d i n g t h e s e …
CHAIRPERSON: Was behind them?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , o k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d t h e n y o u m a k e - in p a r a g r a p h 1 4
y o u d e a l w i t h y o u a p p r o a c h i n g a G e n e r a l o f In t e l li g e n c e .

20

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :
I n s p e c t o r - G e n e r a l o f In t e l li g e n c e .

Ye s .

We

approached

W e f ir s t w r o te t o h i m - D r D i n tw e .

W e w r o t e s e v e r a l l e t te r s a n d h e g a v e u s a n a u d ie n c e .
him.

the

We met with

T h a t m e e t in g w i t h h i m w a s a t t e n d e d b y m y s e lf , S u n a Ve n t e r,

B u s is iw e N tu li a n d F o e t a Kr ig e . W e w e r e p r o m i s e d a r e p o r t b u t n e v e r
received one.

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
B u s is iw e w r o te t o h i m s e v e r a l ly a ft e r t h e m e e t i n g t o - t o
in q u ir e a s to h o w f a r th e O ffi c e o f t h e In s p e c t o r - G e n e r a l f o r I n t e lli g e n c e
is o n a ll t h e m a t t e r s i n c l u d in g th e th r e a ts a n d th e r e q u e s t a n d t h e n e w s
t h a t c e r t a i n p e o p l e fr o m N a ti o n a l In t e l li g e n c e h a d b e e n r e q u e s t e d t o b e
d e p lo y e d a t t h e S A B C . S o w e r e c e iv e d c o r r e s p o n d e n c e fr o m h is o ff ic e
s a y in g th a t t h e m a tt e r i s s ti ll r e c e iv i n g a tt e n ti o n b u t w e h a v e n e v e r
received a report.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Up to today?
10

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ti ll t o d a y s ir.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i t w a s j u s t th e a c k n o w l e d g m e n t o f r e c e ip t o f

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a n d s a y in g t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n w a s g o i n g o n b u t n o t h i n g
f u r th e r ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : I n d e e d .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
CHAIRPERSON: And that was 2016?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : T h a t w a s …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 17.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d n o w it is 2 0 1 9 .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 2017.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : 2 0 1 7 .
CHAIRPERSON: 2017?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o w i t i s 2 0 1 9 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d t h e n y o u
m o v e o n t o d e a l w i t h tw o in c i d e n ts o f b r e a k i n s i n p r o p e r t ie s i n s o m e o f
y o u r c o l le a g u e s w h i c h w e r e li k e t w o d a y s a p a r t . T h e 6 t h o f - t h e 6 t h a n d
8 October 2017.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :
10

Ye s .

O n 6 O c t o b e r S u n a ’s h o m e

w a s b r o k e n in t o a n d h e r h o u s e w a s tr a s h e d . T h e p ic tu r e s o n m y p h o n e
in d i c a t e s t h e s c a l e o f th e d e s t r u c t i o n a t h e r h o m e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

O n 8 O c t o b e r B u s is i w e N t u l i , h e r

h o u s e w a s b r o k e n i n t o a n d o n th e s a m e d a y 8 O c t o b e r M r F o e ta K r i g e ’s
o n e p r o p e r ty - t h e c a r e t a k e r t h e r e w a s h e l d u p a t g u n p o i n t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

O n 3 N o v e m b e r o u r la w y e r a t t h e

ti m e M r A s la m M o o s a j e e w h o a c t e d f o r u s w h il e h e w o r k e d a t N o r t o n
R o s e F u lb r i g h t a n d h e - w e b e l i e v e h e h e a d e d u p th e P r o B o n o
20

D e p a r t m e n t a n d h e a c t e d v i g o r o u s ly f o r u s a n d h e r e c e iv e d a t e x t
m e s s a g e to d r o p t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n a l C o u r t c a s e t h a t w e h a d l o d g e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n g o i n g fo r w a r d y o u d e a l w i t h w h a t
w a s n o w h a p p e n i n g w i th y o u a t w o r k i n p a r a g r a p h 1 8 .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m - I a m s o r r y.

Before that did you get to know

w h e r e th e te x t m e s s a g e c a m e fr o m t h a t w e n t t o Mr M o o s a je e .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

Moosajee.

No,

not

to

my

knowledge.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u n o t - o k a y, a lr i g h t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , t h a n k y o u .

Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .

Paragraph 18. Thank you.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : S o t h i s p o in t d e a l s w i t h t h e a l m o s t
half day where I could not work because my computer had been
10

r e m o t e ly ta k e n o v e r a n d i t ju s t m o v e d o n it s o w n f o r a g e s a n d I c a ll e d
the IT Department. I said please guys I need to work. I cannot work
a n d t h e y s a i d n o , w e a r e w o r k i n g w i t h th is c o m p u te r. W e h a v e r e m o t e l y
t a k e n it o v e r.
I s a i d m a y b e i t h a s g o t a v ir u s . C a n y o u w o r k w i th i t q u ic k ly
a n d t h e c o m p u t e r j u s t - f o r h o u r s j u s t c a r r ie d o n j u s t d o i n g i ts o w n
t h i n g . S h o w i n g fi le s a n d - s o I ju s t f il m e d i t a n d I le f t it a t t h a t b u t I
f o u n d i t h o r r i fic .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

Th a n k y o u a n d p a r a g r a p h 1 9 .

Yo u

d e a l w it h w h a t …
20

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d a u d i t q u e r y ? Wa s i t a n a u d i t q u e r y ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : A n a u d i t q u e r y c a m e to m e s a y i n g
t h a t I h a d f a i le d t o d is c l o s e a n - a b u s in e s s i n t e r e s t a n d i t s a i d t h a t t h i s

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
company

now

had

business

with

the

SABC

and

it

is

c a l le d

I n d is a ( ? ) M e d i a . A t f ir s t I c o u l d n o t r e c a l l w h a t t h is c o u l d b e r e f e r r in g
t o b e c a u s e a s f a r a s I k n o w I h a d n o i n t e r e s t i n th is c o m p a n y a n d I
h a v e n e v e r r e c e iv e d a n y th i n g f r o m a c o m p a n y c a ll e d In d i s a M e d i a a n d I
lo o k e d a t t h i s l e t te r w h ic h p u r p o r t e d t o c o m e fr o m t h e A u d i t o r - G e n e r a l’s
O ff ic e .
I p h o n e d t h e A u d i t o r - G e n e r a l ’s O ffi c e to fi n d o u t , tr y in g to
f o ll o w t h r o u g h . N o b o d y k n e w a n y t h i n g a b o u t t h i s l e t te r b u t t h e n t h e r e
w a s a l i t tl e b o x a t th e e n d a n d i t - n e x t to m y o w n P e r s n u m b e r s w h ic h
10

is m y S A B C e m p l o y e e n u m b e r. T h e y h a d t h e n a m e o f b u s i n e s s w o m a n
D a n is a B a l o y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Hm.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : N o w t h e b a c k g r o u n d to th is is th a t
m a n y y e a r s a g o I w a s i n v i te d to s e r v e o n t h e B o a r d o f I n d is a M e d i a . I
w a s t h e n t o l d t h a t t h i s c o m p a n y i s in s o lv e n t. It is g o i n g i n to l i q u id a ti o n
a n d th e r e i s n o s u c h c o m p a n y a n y m o r e . I n e v e r r e c e iv e d a n y m o n e y o r
a n y th in g fr o m t h e c o m p a n y. S o …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u h a d b e e n i n v it e d to s e r v e o n i t ?

20

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : O n t h e b o a r d y e s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e b o a r d . In v i t e d b y w h o m ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : B y t h e t h e n C E O J a b u la n i M a b a s o ,
ja .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o f - o f t h e - o f a c o m p a n y c a ll e d … ?

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : A c o m p a n y c a ll e d I n d is a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h e n y o u d is c o v e r e d a f te r h e h a d i n v i t e d y o u t h a t
t h e c o m p a n y w a s g o in g t h r o u g h l i q u id a ti o n o r h e is t h e o n e w h o t o l d
you?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

I think

I attended

a b o u t tw o

m e e ti n g s th e r e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B L E - M B E K I:

A n d I w a s t o l d t h a t th e c o m p a n y i s

g o i n g t o b e s h u t d o w n a n d th a t th is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h a f te r y o u h a d s t a r t e d …
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t e n d i n g m e e t in g s t h e r e ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

And

th a t

th is

li q u i d a t io n a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: So you had become a board member …
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e it w e n t i n t o l iq u i d a ti o n ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

Page 190 of 230

is

g o in g

into

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

A n d I h a d d i s c l o s e d th a t a t m y

previous job.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : A s r e q u ir e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

But that it now pops up at the

SABC …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : W i t h m y P e r s n u m b e r.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : N e x t t o D a n is a B a lo y ’s n a m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : W a s m o s t b a ffli n g …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : A n d I h a d to v i g o r o u s ly r e fu s e t h i s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s - w a s s h e in a n y w a y in v o lv e d w i t h th a t c o m p a n y
( in t e r v e n e s ) /
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s s h e w a s .
CHAIRPERSON: She was?

20

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u a n d i n p a r a g r a p h 2 0 y o u
d e a l w i t h a d a y w h e n y o u w e r e a c c o s t e d b y th e p o l ic e a n d t h e S A B C
s e c u r i ty. C o u l d y o u ju s t q u ic k ly t e l l t h e C h a ir a b o u t th a t i n c id e n t ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

I was on my way to meet people

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
w h o w e r e - w h o c a n b e d e s c r i b e d a s w h i s t l e - b l o w e r s fr o m w i th i n
P R A S A . I w a s d u e t o m e e t t h e m s o m e w h e r e i n t h e C r e s ta a r e a . S o I
w a s i n a h u r r y a n d I w a s l e a v i n g t h e T V b u i ld i n g o f t h e S A B C . W h e n I
h a d p a s s e d th r o u g h t h e t u r n s ti le s I w a s a p p r o a c h e d b y t h e S A B C
s e c u r i ty.
T h e y w e r e i n t h e c o m p a n y o f t h e Br ix to n P o l ic e .

N o w th e

S A B C a n d t h e Br ix to n P o lic e S t a ti o n h a v e g o t a l o n g r e la t io n s h i p a n d
t h e - t h e g e n tl e m a n a s k e d m e t o c o m e in t o th e l i t tl e s e c u r i t y r o o m a n d
w a n t e d m e t o m a k e a s t a t e m e n t a b o u t th e d e a t h t h r e a t s ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is w a s n o w a S A B C s e c u r i ty o r … ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

S A B C s e c u r i ty t o g e t h e r w i t h a

g e n tl e m a n fr o m Br ix t o n P o li c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : I t h e n …
CHAIRPERSON:

W i th o u t a n y a p p o in t m e n t y o u k n e w n o t h i n g a b o u t

t h is ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : N o a p p o i n t m e n t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :
20

No

i n d i c a t io n

th a t

th e y

were

c o m i n g . I t is e m b a r r a s s in g . It lo o k s li k e a n a r r e s t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : T h e - t h e r e c e p ti o n is fu ll .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : I t is j u s t d o w n r i g h t h u m il i a t i n g …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : A n d m y c o l l e a g u e s w e r e s o w o r r i e d
that they phoned the union when they saw me being whisked into this
li t tl e o ffi c e a s t h o u g h I a m b e i n g a r r e s te d o r - o r s o m e t h in g li k e th a t . I t
is v e r y d e f a m a t o r y.
J u s t t h e w h o le s c e n e a n d t h e y - w h i l e I w a s in s i d e t h e u n i o n
a n d t h e u n i o n l e a d e r c a ll e d a n d I t o ld t h e p o li c e t h a t I h a v e g o t a t r u s t
p r o b le m b e c a u s e t h e y h a v e n o t r e s o lv e d t h e is s u e o f w h a t h a p p e n e d t o
S u n a a n d S u n a is d e a d n o w a n d h o w - h o w c a n I t r u s t t h e m a n d th e y
t h e n s a i d th a t th e y r e c e i v e d i n s t r u c t i o n s fr o m a c r o s s t h e r o a d .
10

A c r o s s th e r o a d is R a d i o P a r k w h e r e t h e a u t h o r i t ie s - th e b i g
a u t h o r i t ie s i n t h e S A B C s i t …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

And they also said that they had

r e c e i v e d a n e m a i l t h a t t h i s w a s to h a p p e n t o m e a n d t h a t th e c o p s w e r e
t o b e c a l le d fo r m e a n d I m u s t h a n d o v e r m y p h o n e t o th e c o p s . Th e n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is is i n N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 7 a c c o r d i n g t o … ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 20.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s a n d …
20

CHAIRPERSON:

W o u ld th is h a v e b e e n n o w o u t o f t h e b l u e in t h e

s e n s e t h a t i t w a s n o t c lo s e d to t h e e v e n t s o f y o u r d is m i s s a l a n d y o u r
r e i n s t a te m e n t ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : I t w a s c lo s e d t o m e w r i ti n g a le t t e r
o f c o n c e r n t o - t o th e a u t h o r i t ie s a t t h e S A B C a b o u t a - a s c a r y
g e n tl e m a n s e n d in g m e a m e s s a g e o n t e le g r a m .

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

H e s in c e d e le t e d h is t e l e g r a m

m e s s a g e s o I c a n n o t fi n d i t o n m y p h o n e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

B u t t h e g e n tl e m a n w o r k e d in th e

P r e s i d e n c y a n d t h is m e s s a g e - m a y b e I a m p a r a n o i d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : B u t I d i d a s k B u s is iw e w h a t s h o u l d
I fe e l a n d t h i n k a b o u t t h is m e s s a g e .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : S h o u l d I - s h o u l d I b e f e a r f u l …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

A n d B u s is iw e s a i d y o u m u s t n o t

t a k e a n y t h i n g ly in g d o w n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

At face value.

I t i s - it is o f

concern …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :
20

A n d I - I th e n - th e u n i o n s c a ll e d

a r o u n d a n d a c o ll e a g u e c a l le d Z o n k e S m i t h c a m e t o w a i t o u t s i d e t o s e e
if I a m o k a y a n d w e th e n w e n t t o s i t i n t h e c a r p a r k t o g e t h e r b e c a u s e I
c o m p le t e l y r e f u s e d t o c o o p e r a t e w i t h t h e - th e p o lic e . Th e y w a n t e d m e
t o c o m e t o Br ix t o n th e f o l l o w i n g d a y to - t o c h a t t o t h e B r i x t o n g u y s a n d
ju s t t o f o b h i m o ff b e c a u s e I n o ti c e d t h a t h e w a s w e a r i n g a g r e e n ,
y e l l o w a n d b la c k T- s h ir t u n d e r n e a t h h i s tr a c k s u i t w h ic h m a d e w e

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
w o n d e r i f h e i s i n a c o n d i ti o n t o ta k e a s t a t e m e n t .
S o I w e n t t o s i t i n my c a r w i t h - in th e c a r p a r k w i th
Z o n k e S m i t h . I m u s t s a y C h a i r p e r s o n b y n o w I w a s f a ll in g a p a r t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Hm.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

C r y i n g u n c o n tr o l l a b ly a n d I t h e n

c a l l e d Br ix t o n a n d g a v e t h e g e n t l e m a n ’s n a m e a n d h is s e r v ic e n u m b e r
t o t h e B r ix t o n P o l ic e a n d th e y t o ld m e h e is o ff d u ty. N o w h o w c a n a n
o ff d u t y c o p t a k e a s ta t e m e n t fr o m m e . I w a s s o b a ff le d . S o h e r e i s a
c o p o n a fr o lic o f h is o w n d o in g fa v o u r s f o r p e o p l e a c r o s s t h e r o a d .
10

W h a t - w h a t is t o b e t h o u g h t o f t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n P o l ic e i n
t h is c o n te x t ?

A r e t h e y in h o c k e d t o a to x ic n e t w o r k i n s id e t h e S A B C

t h a t is h e ll b e n t o n te r r o r is i n g u s .

S o t h a t w a s w h a t w a s in m y m i n d

D e p u ty C h ie f J u s t ic e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e - t h e n a m e s o f t h e s e p e o p l e t h e s e c u r i t y g u y.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - I g u e s s y o u w o u l d k n o w b e c a u s e h e w a s S A B C
based. Is that right?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e n t h is o ff d u ty p o li c e - p o lic e m a n o b v i o u s ly

you got to know the name?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s a n y t h i n g d o n e p a r ti c u la r ly i n r e g a r d t o h is

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c o n d u c t t o - fr o m y o u r s i d e t o t a k e i t fu r t h e r ? A s s o o n a s t h e y l e f t y o u
a l o n e y o u d e c i d e d y o u d i d n o t w a n t t o d o a n y th in g a b o u t i t ? J u s t w a n t
- i t j u s t s o u n d s v e r y s t r a n g e t h a t w h e n h e is o ff d u ty h e i s e n g a g e d i n
s o m e t h i n g lik e th a t a n d i t is n o t c l e a r e x a c t ly w h a t - w h y h e w o u l d b e
in v o lv e d in - in t h a t w h e n h e is o ff d u t y.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

H e w a s a s k e d t o d o s o b y th e

people in Radio Park.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a t is - t h a t is w h y I w a n t t o fi n d o u t w h e t h e r
a n y th in g w a s d o n e l a te r t o r e p o r t h i s c o n d u c t b e c a u s e h o w c a n h e
10

b e i n g a p o lic e o ffi c e r a n d t h e n b e i n g o ff d u ty c a r r y o u t i n s tr u c t io n s fr o m
a n y w h e r e o t h e r t h a n fr o m t h e p o l ic e . ( I n t e r v e n e s ) .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

T h i s w a s h is c o n d u c t tr u t h f u lly

C h i e f J u s t ic e a n d I h a v e n o i d e a …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : O f w h a t p o s s e s s e d h i m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : To b e h a v e in t h i s m a n n e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t - b u t a s f a r a s y o u k n o w n o th in g f u r t h e r h a p p e n e d
o r n o t h i n g h a p p e n e d to h i m a f t e r th a t a b o u t h is c o n d u c t ?
20

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : N o n o t h i n g h a p p e n e d t o h i m a s fa r
a s I k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I d o n o t s e e h is n a m e h e r e . H a v e y o u g i v e n th e
n a m e t o - to t h e C o m m i s s i o n b y a n y c h a n c e ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s , I w i ll g iv e t h e n a m e …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : To th e C o m m i s s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I - I t h in k - I t h i n k t h a t is v e r y c o n c e r n i n g a n d …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o m e t h i n g n e e d s to - t h a t k in d o f c o n d u c t n e e d s to

b e r e p o r te d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a . I t - it m a y w e ll b e t h a t i f w h a t y o u h a v e i n t h is

s t a te m e n t b e c a u s e m a y b e it m i g h t n o t b e f o c u s i n g e n o u g h o n h is
conduct.
10

I t m a y b e th a t i t i s n o t e n o u g h .

It m a y b e t h a t i t m ig h t b e

n e c e s s a r y t o d o a n o t h e r s t a t e m e n t t h a t f o c u s e s o n w h a t h is r o le w a s i n
t h a t w h o le t h i n g . A lr i g h t.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : I u n d e r s t a n d D e p u ty C h a ir J u s ti c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t - b u t y o u w il l - y o u w i ll - y o u w il l i n d ic a te i f i t i s
something you would rather not raise again or - or what?

I a m ju s t

s a y in g th a t b e c a u s e s o m e t i m e s w h e n p e o p le h a v e g o n e t h r o u g h c e r t a i n
s i tu a ti o n s s o m e t i m e s t h e y - t h e y d o n o t w a n t t o h a v e t h o s e t h i n g s t h o s e s t o r i e s r e v is i t e d b u t it i s s o m e t h in g t h a t c o n c e r n s m e q u i t e a l o t
20

a n d i t is n o t s o m e t h i n g t h a t o n e w o u ld w i s h t o j u s t g o a w a y l ik e t h a t .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s s i r I w il l i n d ic a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n a n d th e n i n

p a r a g r a p h 2 1 y o u d e a l w i t h a n i n c id e n t w h e n y o u - y o u a n d y o u r
c o l l e a g u e s w e r e c h a s e d b y a c a r u n t il y o u r e a c h e d a c e r t a i n S h e l l

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G a r a g e w h e r e t h e n l a te r y o u w e r e a b l e t o v ie w th e f o o ta g e a n d y o u g o t
t o g e t t o t h e n a m e o f t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s c h a s i n g y o u a n d t h e r e is
c u r r e n tly li ti g a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: That was a very scary thing. Please tell me about it.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s m a ’ a m . I a m a b ig a d m i r e r o f
t h e l a te e c o n o m is t S a m p i e Te r r e b l a n c h e .

So w h e n h i s c o l l e a g u e s t h e

o th e r e c o n o m is ts u n d e r t h e c o o r d i n a ti o n o f P a t r ic k B o n d a n d h is
c o l l e a g u e s o r g a n is e d a t o n e o f t h e f a c il i ti e s o f th e U n iv e r s i ty o f
10

J o h a n n e s b u r g a r e tr o s p e c t iv e l o o k a s h is m a in e c o n o m i c c o n tr i b u t io n s
a n d h is t h e o r e ti c a l w o r k o v e r t h e s p a n o v e r h i s li f e ti m e .
T h e r e a s o n fo r t h i s w a s t h a t h e w a s d y i n g o f c a n c e r.

I had

w o r k e d w it h h i s d a u g h t e r, C h r is te ll e in m y e a r l y j o u r n a lis t c a r e e r a n d
r e a l ly r e a d h is w o r k a l o t. Es p e c ia ll y h i s b o o k A H is t o r y o f I n e q u a l it y .
S o I w a s s o e x c i te d t h a t h i s c o l le a g u e s a r e d o in g t h is f o r h i m a n d t h a t
w o u ld a ffo r d u s a n o p p o r t u n i ty to s p e a k t o h i m a n d h i s c o ll e a g u e - t o
s p e a k a b o u t h i s w o r k s p e c i a ll y o n t h e i d e a o f a w e a l t h t a x f o r S o u t h
A fr ic a .
I p i tc h e d i t a t th e m o r n in g d i a r y m e e t i n g a n d I s a i d I w o u l d
20

c o v e r i t my s e l f . I t o o k t h e l iv e v i e w w h ic h is l ik e a m o b il e s a te ll it e a n d
the camera.

I w a s w i t h a - a n in t e r n b y th e n a m e o f H il d a a n d a

c a m e r a w o m a n b y t h e n a m e o f Va n e s s a .

W e w e n t t o t h i s f a c i li ty i n

W e s t d e n e a n d w e a r r i v e d l a t e b u t w e c o v e r e d t h e s to r y a n d w e c r o s s e d
u s i n g th e s a te ll i te in t o th e 1 o ’ c lo c k n e w s a n d i n t e r v ie w e d p e o p le .
T h e n w e w e r e p a c k in g u p l a te o n a ft e r w e h a d a c c o m p li s h e d

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o u r t a s k a n d w e w e r e g e t ti n g r e a d y t o g o a n d p a c k a g e u p a m i n i s to r y
lik e i t is a t in y li t tl e d o c u m e n ta r y.

I t is a n e w s i te m f o r th e e v e n in g

n e w s o n S a m p i e Te r r e b la n c h e ’s w o r k .
W h e n w e w e r e d r iv i n g o u t o f th is f a c il i ty, t h is f a c il i ty is o n a
s o r t o f i n c li n e , a n d w e w e n t to w a r d s a s t o p s ig n a n d i t i s i m p o r t a n t th a t
it i s a s to p s i g n a n d n o t a r e d r o b o t o r a r o b o t , w e t h e n a ft e r c r o s s i n g
o v e r o n to t h e o t h e r s i d e h e a r d t h is s c r e e c h i n g o f a c a r a n d w e t h o u g h t
t h e g u y i s i n tr o u b l e , s h o u l d w e ju s t l in g e r a b i t t o s e e w h a t is
h a p p e n in g a n d w e e v e n w o n d e r e d i f w e h a d d o n e s o m e t h i n g t o c a u s e
10

t h is , b u t t h e n i t b e c a m e c l e a r, b e c a u s e w e s to p p e d t h e r e f o r a w h i le to
s e e i f w e c a n a t t e n d to t h e c a r, f o r a f e w m i n u t e s w e j u s t s a t i n t h e c a r,
t h e n t h i s c a r g a v e c h a s e , a n d i t w a s a f u r io u s c h a s e . W e p h o n e d t h e
o ffic e a n d w e s c r e a m e d i n to t h e h a n d s e t w e a r e u n d e r a t ta c k , w e a r e
u n d e r a t t a c k , a n d L e m e e z G i lb e r t a t t h e o ffic e w a s w o n d e r in g w h a t i s
g o i n g o n , w h e r e a r e y o u w h a t is y o u r G P S l o c a ti o n , a n d o b v i o u s l y w e
c o u l d n ’ t te ll w h e r e w e w e r e a n y m o r e b e c a u s e w e w e r e n o lo n g e r
s t o p p in g a t r o b o ts , w e w e r e n o l o n g e r s t o p p i n g a t s to p s i g n s a n y m o r e
b e c a u s e . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n )
CHAIRPERSON: And that in itself was dangerous?

20

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

W e w e r e e n d a n g e r in g e v e r y o n e ,

a n d w e h a d tr i e d a t d i ff e r e n t p o in t s t o t h i n k o h m a y b e w e a r e b e i n g
h i ja c k e d , w e m u s t s u r r e n d e r

the

equipment, we

must surrender

o u r s e lv e s , w e th e n fo u n d o u r s e lv e s , i t h a d b e g u n t o d r i z z l e , w e f o u n d
o u r s e lv e s o n r o u n d a b o u t , c o m i n g t h r o u g h Fir s t S t r e e t i n M e lv il le a n d
d i p p i n g t o w a r d s t h e S h e l l G a r a g e , b e c a u s e o f t h e s p e e d a t w h ic h w e

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
w e r e a p p r o a c h in g I s a w th e p e tr o l a t t e n d a n ts p u t t h e ir h e a d s , t h e ir
h a n d s o n t h e ir h e a d s a s w e w e r e a p p r o a c h i n g t h e g a r a g e , a n d I w a s
b e g g i n g Va n e s s a , Va n e s s a p l e a s e l e t ’s s u r r e n d e r n o w, t h e c a m e r a s
m u s t b e h e r e , l e t u s ju s t d o s o m e t h in g , le t u s g e t o u t o f t h e c a r, m a y b e
w e a r e s a fe n o w.
A n d th e n h e c h a r g e d r i g h t t h e r e in t h e g a r a g e , a n d Va n e s s a
s a i d n o w a y s I a m d r iv in g lik e c r a z y.

S o w e w e r e d r i v i n g th is c a r – s h e

d r o v e t h i s c a r l ik e a m a d w o m a n . S h e s a v e d o u r l iv e s o n th a t d a y, a n d
e x h a u s t e d w e c li m b e d u p , s h e w e n t a n d p u t t h e c a r t h e r e , a n d I s a i d
10

Va n e s s a y o u a r e n e v e r g o i n g t o d r iv e t h is S A B C c a r a g a i n a n d t h e
in t e r n w a s tr e m b li n g i n th e b a c k s e a t a n d t h e r e w a s a l o t o f o b v i o u s ly
tr y i n g , w o n d e r i n g w h a t’s h a p p e n e d , b e c a u s e w e h a d l o s t th e c a r in t h e
s li p s tr e a m o f tr a ffi c o n E m p ir e R o a d , s o w e p a r k e d t h e c a r a n d e n t e r e d
t h e b u i l d i n g a n d I w e n t t h r o u g h t o N y a n a M o t l e t e ’s o ff ic e a n d I f o u n d
h i m t h e r e w i t h K e n n e th M a c k a t e u r s , o n e o f o u r s e n i o r s , a n d t h e y t o l d
u s to g o t o th e B r ix t o n P o li c e .
Va n e s s a w e n t t o t h e Br ix t o n P o lic e S t a ti o n a n d s h e w r o te m e a
le t t e r s a y in g t h a t a c e r ta in S e r g e a n t Vil li g a z i a t t h e B r ix to n P o li c e
S t a ti o n r e f u s e d t o t a k e t h e c a s e , r e fu s e d t o o p e n a c a s e , n o t e v e n a

20

c a s e o f in t i m id a ti o n .
S o I tr a v e ll e d a n d t h e n I w e n t b a c k to th e g a r a g e a n d a
g e n tl e m a n w h o i s th e m a n a g e m e n t o f o w n e r s h i p o f th e g a r a g e , lo n g b e a r d e d g e n t le m a n , h e is n o lo n g e r t h e r e n o w, g a v e m e o n P a tr i c k
B o n d ’s U S B t h e in c i d e n t a s r e c o r d e d b y t h e c a m e r a s a n d h e h e l p e d m e
t o is o l a te t h e n u m b e r p l a t e a n d F o e t a K r ig e th e n tr a c e d t h e n u m b e r

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p l a te s t o a c a r l e a s i n g e n t i ty i n th e E a s t R a n d . I th e n p h o n e d th e c a r
le a s in g e n ti ty i n t h e E a s t R a n d a n d t h e y t o l d m e t h a t th e c a r w a s n o t
le a s e d t o a n i n d iv id u a l b u t t o a c o m p a n y, th is c o m p a n y is S c h i n d le r
L i f ts .
S c h i n d le r L i f ts h a s a m u l ti m il li o n R a n d c o n tr a c t w i t h th e S A B C
t o f ix a b o u t 1 6 l i ft s a n d f o u r w a l k w a y s , e s c a l a to r s . I t o c c u r r e d to m e to
g o to M r M a t h e b u l a , t h e H e a d o f S A B C S e c u r i ty, j u s t t o a s k a b o u t
S c h i n d le r a n d I w e n t t o th e c a r d e p a r t m e n t o f t h e S A B C t o a s k a b o u t
t h e c a r r e g is tr a t i o n n u m b e r, w h i c h w a s s t r a n g e l y s i m i l a r to t h e c a r s t h a t
10

w e l e a s e , b u t I c o u ld n ’t d r a w a n y h e l p , s o I d e c i d e d t o l it i g a t e a n d I
w e n t to t h e S o u t h G a u t e n g H i g h C o u r t . . .( i n te r v e n ti o n )
CHAIRPERSON:

R o u n d a b o u t w h e n d id t h is i n c id e n t h a p p e n ?

2017,

2018?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I t w a s . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n )

I f I m a y d ir e c t t h e w i tn e s s C h a i r p a g e 8 ,

29 January 2018.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

Ye s t h a n k y o u . I t w a s a M o n d a y.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d e c i d e d t o li t ig a t e ?
20

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

Ye s I d e c id e d t o l i ti g a t e t o

a s c e r t a i n th e id e n ti ty o f th e g e n t le m a n w h o g a v e c h a s e . I s t o o d a l o n e
in c o u r t e v e n t h o u g h I w a s o n d u t y w it h th e S A B C S a t e l li t e L iv e Vie w, I
w a s w i th S A B C p e r s o n n e l , a n d I w a s ( in d is t in c t) h a r m i n t h e l in e o f
d u t y, a n d th e C o u r t is s u e d a n o r d e r c o m p e lli n g t h e c o m p a n y, S c h i n d l e r,
t o r e v e a l t h e i d e n ti ty o f t h e d r iv e r.

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
W e w e r e b e i n g c h a s e d b y o n e w h it e g e n t l e m a n w h o s e n a m e is
J a n U n g e r e r, t h e m a n w h o o f te n f ix e s t h e li f t n e x t to m y o ffi c e o n t h e
s e c o n d f lo o r a t t h e S A B C T V B l o c k .
CHAIRPERSON: Somebody you knew?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

I d o n ’t k n o w h i m s ir, I d i d n ’ t k n o w

h i m b u t h e fix e s t h e li f ts a t t h e S A B C .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u d i d n ’ t k n o w h i m b e fo r e . Ye s , o k a y.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

S o I w e n t b a c k t o N t a ti M a t h e b u la

w h o r u n s t h e s e c u r i ty d e p a r t m e n t o f th e S A B C , a n d I g a v e h i m t h e
10

n a m e J a n U n g e r e r a n d h e p r in t e d o u t s e v e r a l p a g e s o f th e n u m b e r o f
ti m e s J a n U n g e r e r h a d e n t e r e d th e S A B C b u il d in g t o fi x t h e l if t s a n d a
P E R S n u m b e r, w h ic h is a n S A B C e m p lo y e e n u m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h e is a l s o e m p lo y e d b y th e l i f t c o m p a n y ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

B y S c h i n d le r, t h e s u p p li e r o f t h e

SABC.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o . . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

To my m in d i t is a d is c u s s i o n

b e t w e e n th e S A B C a n d S c h in d le r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

The SABC has the power in the

r e l a ti o n s h i p b e c a u s e i t i s a s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r t o a c o r p o r a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

I t ’s a C E O t o C E O d is c u s s i o n .

CHAIRPERSON: Mmm.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Yo u a s k w h y t h e e m p l o y e e is c h a s i n g

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
jo u r n a li s ts a n d y o u – w e l l I w r o te t o t h e B o a r d m e m b e r s , i n c lu d i n g m y
s is t e r i n - la w P h o e b e ( i n d is t in c t ) G q u b u l e a n d I a s k e d f o r a f u l l r e p o r t . I
n e v e r r e c e iv e d a r e p o r t o n t h i s i n c i d e n t , b u t . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t t h is is 2 0 1 8 i s n ’ t i t , t h i s i s 2 0 1 8 , i t is n o l o n g e r

2 0 1 4 , 2 0 1 6 , i t is – o r w a s i t a n o l d b o a r d ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

Th is i s t h e in t e r i m b o a r d .

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is is th e i n t e r i m b o a r d , j a .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

Ye s , t h e i n te r i m b o a r d w a s

a tt e m p t in g to c l e a n u p b u t t h e i s s u e s w e r e u n r e s o l v e d , th e y p i t c h e d
10

b a t t le s b e t w e e n e n fo r c e r s , o u r s e lv e s a n d t h e s c r a p e s o v e r e d i t o r i a l
d ir e c t io n w a s u n a b a te d a n d w e r e a li s e d w h a t M r N y a n a M o t l e t e to l d u s
o n t h e fir s t m e e ti n g b a c k in Te b e l e ’s o ff ic e a f te r o u r r e i n s ta t e m e n t h e
said nothing has changed here.
CHAIRPERSON:

B y t h e w a y y o u w e r e r e i n s t a te d w i th in w e e k s a f t e r

y o u w e r e d is m is s e d i s n ’ t i t ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

W i t h i n w e e k s , s o y o u d id n ’ t s t a y o u t o f S A B C f o r a

lo n g t i m e ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:
20

I th i n k i t w a s a l it t le l e s s t h a n a

m o n th .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L i t tl e le s s t h a n a m o n th . B u t o n c e y o u g o t th e n a m e
o f t h e p e r s o n w h o h a d b e e n c h a s in g y o u , e n d a n g e r i n g y o u r li v e s li k e
t h a t , a p a r t fr o m g o i n g to t h e B o a r d d i d y o u g o t o t h e C E O , th e C O O o r
p e o p l e l ik e t h a t , a p a r t fr o m M a t h e b u la ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

Ye s , t h e A c t i n g C E O , G C E O a t t h e

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
ti m e w a s N o m s a P e l li s o , s h e s a i d th a t s h e w o u l d e n g a g e a la w fir m ,
M a d o n is e , t o lo o k in t o th is . T h is m a t te r w a s s o i n c o m p e t e n t ly h a n d l e d
b y M a d o n is e a n d w h o e v e r w a s r e s p o n s ib l e t h a t I d is c o v e r e d b y
b e fr i e n d i n g t h e o t h e r b la c k S c h i n d l e r g u y s th a t J a n U n g e r e r h a d b e e n
in v i te d b a c k i n t o t h e b u i l d i n g a m o n th a ft e r th is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t b e f o r e a la w f ir m c o u l d b e a s k e d to d o a n y t h i n g I
w o u ld h a v e t h o u g h t th a t t h e f ir s t t h in g t h a t w o u l d h a p p e n w o u l d b e t o –
f o r t h e C E O o r Ac t in g C E O to s a y w e ll if t h is g u y h a s – is s u p p o s e d t o
b e e m p l o y e d b y t h e S A B C w h o is i n c h a r g e o f t h a t p e r s o n , h o w d i d t h a t
10

h a p p e n , I w a n t t h a t p e r s o n t o c o m e h e r e , I w a n t t o fi n d o u t a n d d o a n
in t e r n a l i n v e s ti g a ti o n t o e s t a b li s h e x a c tl y w h a t i s h a p p e n i n g b e f o r e y o u
e v e n g o o u ts id e . Th a t d i d n ’ t h a p p e n o r y o u d o n ’ t k n o w ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

N o t m u c h o f th a t h a p p e n e d D e p u ty

C h i e f J u s ti c e , I o n l y s a w a l e t t e r fr o m N o m s a P e l li s o t o B r u c e P h ip s o n
s a y in g t h a t th e g e n t le m a n ’s e n tr y t o t h e b u i ld i n g s h o u l d b e h a l te d a n d
c le a r ly . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : S h o u ld b e h a l t e d ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

Ye s te m p o r a r ily c l e a r ly, b e c a u s e

h e la t e r f o u n d h i ms e lf b a c k m e r r i ly i n th e b u i ld i n g .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w a s a n y i s s u e t a k e n u p w i t h Sc h in d le r, w i t h th e
li fe c o m p a n y ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

I s a w a l e tt e r fr o m N o m s a P e l li s o

in d i c a t in g t h a t t h e C E O o f S c h i n d l e r w a s o u t o f t o w n a n d S c h i n d l e r
b e li e v e s t h a t i t w a s a c a s e o f r o a d r a g e b e c a u s e w e h a d s k i p p e d a r e d
robot but there was no red robot where we were.

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t d id th e S A B C e v e r c a l l u p o n t h i s g u y t o a n s w e r t o
s a y y o u k n o w th is i s w h a t w e – w h a t h a s b e e n fo u n d o u t , w h a t w a s
g o i n g o n , w h a t d o y o u h a v e t o s a y, a s f a r a s y o u k n o w th e r e ’s n o t h in g
lik e th a t ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

I would have expected that they

w o u ld h a v e p u t t h e – o u r a s s a i la n t a n d u s in t h e s a m e r o o m
. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a t s o m e s t a g e .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:
10

. . . a n d s a i d t a lk i t o u t , w h a t

happened.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

B u t n o n e o f th a t h a p p e n e d , a n d

t h e o d d th i n g w a s h e r – w e l l t h e m , S A B C i n v i t in g h i m b a c k t o r e p o r t o n
d u t y.

T h e o t h e r th in g t h a t w a s v e r y o d d w a s t h a t F o e ta K r ig e

in v e s t i g a t e d th is m a n , fo u n d th a t h e h a s a c r i m i n a l r e c o r d a n d h e is
e n t e r in g a c r i m i n a l r e c o r d , I m e a n h e is e n t e r in g a n a t i o n a l k e y p o i n t
w i t h a c r i m i n a l r e c o r d , a n d t h e s e c o n d p a r t i s th a t th e c r i m i n a l r e c o r d
w a s f o r s i m il a r b e h a v i o u r, a n d o n h i s p e r s o n a l w e b s i te s w e f o u n d s c a r y
s w a s ti k a s , a r m e d p e o p le , b u l l e t s , t h a t k i n d o f v is u a l a n d i m a g e w h ic h I
20

t h e n g a v e t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n o f I n q u ir y i n t o S ta t e C a p t u r e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , t h a n k y o u .

S o a s f a r a s y o u k n o w i s t h i s p e r s o n s ti ll , is t h is

person back at SABC even as we speak, or the last time you knew he
was back?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

H e w a s b a c k a n d i n a m e e ti n g w i th

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
o u r n e w C E O , M a d o d a M x a k w e , W e b e r W e n t z e l , D a n i e l ( in d i s ti n c t) h e
w a s w o r k i n g a t W e b e r W e n tz e l a t th e t i m e , a n d h e – w e c o n fr o n te d
N o m s a P e l li s o a b o u t t h is g e n tl e m a n a n d t h e in c i d e n t a n d s h e s a i d t w o
t h i n g s t h a t a la r m e d m e , s h e s a i d t h a t t h e c o p w h o w a s o ff d u t y w a s
a s k e d b y h e r t o g o a n d ta k e a l o o k a t – l o o k in t o m e a c r o s s t h e r o a d a t
t h e T V b lo c k , s h e a ls o s a i d t h a t – s h e a ls o s a id t h a t s h e w a s u n a w a r e
t h a t th is g e n t le m a n is b a c k i n t h e b u il d i n g a n d th e n th e C E O a s k e d h e r
t o m a k e s u r e t h a t th is d o e s n ’ t o c c u r a g a i n , t h a t ’s th e C E O M a d o d a
Mxakwe.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Said she must make sure what?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:

Th a t t h is m a tt e r i s r e s o lv e d , th a t

t h is m a n m u s t n o t c o m e b a c k h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

W h a t p o s i ti o n is s h e in n o w, s h e w a s a c ti n g

CEO at the time of the incident?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

S h e h a s s in c e le f t th e c o r p o r a t io n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e h a s s in c e le f t th e c o r p o r a t io n ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

Ye s s ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s h e l e ft b e fo r e t h e r e w a s f in a li ty o n t h e m a t t e r ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I:
20

S h e le f t b e fo r e th e r e w a s fi n a li t y

o n a w h o l e s le w o f m a t t e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M m m . T h is is q u i t e c o n c e r n i n g b e c a u s e i t h a p p e n e d
in t h e c o n t e x t o f w h a t a p p e a r s t o h a v e b e e n c o n ti n u e d a c ts o f th r e a t
a n d in t i m id a ti o n th a t m a y h a v e b e e n c o n n e c t e d w i t h th e s t a n c e y o u
t o o k , y o u a n d o t h e r s t o o k a g a i n s t th e p r o te s t p o lic y a n d a g a i n s t
in s t r u c t i o n s

that

were

being

g iv e n

to

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th e

newsroom

that

were

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
o b j e c ti o n a b l e .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

C h i e f J u s ti c e m a y I s a y t h a t th e

SABC 8 became the most unlucky people, the most coincidence-prone,
c o i n c i d e n t p r o n e p e o p l e o n e a r t h , a n d t h e m o s t tr a u m a tis e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

I mean I – when I read your statement and all the

t h i n g s th a t y o u h a v e t a lk e d a b o u t h e r e a n d a ls o w h a t s o m e o f t h e o t h e r
w i t n e s s e s fr o m t h e S A B C 8 w h o h a v e g iv e n e v i d e n c e t a l k e d a b o u t, i t
ju s t s e e m e d a v e r y s tr a n g e p h e n o m e n o n t h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g a r o u n d th e
S A B C 8 . I m e a n t h e m a n n e r in w h ic h I m e a n , M s Ve n t e r ’s h o u s e w a s
10

b r o k e n i n t o in c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h ic h a p p e a r to h a v e b e e n i n ti m i d a ti o n ,
t h r e a ts a n d t h e n M r C h r i s ( in d i s ti n c t) o r s o m e b o d y w a s h e l d a t g u n p o in t
r o u n d a b o u t t h e ti m e , t h a t ti m e a n d t h e n y o u w e r e r e c e iv i n g a s t h e
S A B C 8 t h r e a t e n i n g m e s s a g e s a l l o f w h i c h s e e m e d t o b e c o n n e c te d
w i t h t h is s ta n c e y o u w e r e t a k i n g s i m p ly a b o u t y o u k n o w c e r t a in
d ir e c t iv e s a n d th e p r o t e s t p o l ic y a n d t h e n y o u w e r e c h a s e d lik e t h i s , I
m e a n w h e n y o u r e a d h o w y o u d e s c r i b e in y o u r s t a te m e n t a n d a ffi d a v it
h o w y o u w e r e c h a s e d y o u a r e lu c k y t h a t n o c a r a c c i d e n t , n o a c c i d e n t
o c c u r r e d a s a r e s u l t o f tr y i n g t o r u n a w a y fr o m t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s
c h a s i n g y o u a n d t h e n t h e r e is t h is in c i d e n t w h ic h y o u w e r e t a lk i n g

20

a b o u t w h e r e t h e o ff - d u ty p o li c e m a n , w h e r e t h e y ju s t w a n t e d y o u t o g o
t o th e p o l ic e s t a ti o n a n d a l l o f t h a t a n d a ll o f th e s e t h i n g s a l l s e e m e d t o
b e le f t h a n g i n g .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

Al l o f t h e m a r e le f t h a n g i n g

D e p u ty C h ie f J u s t ic e .
CHAIRPERSON:

I m e a n w e c e r ta i n ly d o n ’t s e e o u r s e lv e s a s t h e

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C o m m i s s i o n a s p e o p l e w h o c a n s o lv e e v e r y t h i n g b u t w e c e r t a i n l y
s h o u l d d o w h a t w e c a n i n r e g a r d t o p a r t ic u la r ly m a t t e r s t h a t s e e m q u i t e
c o n n e c t e d w i t h w h a t w e a r e i n v e s ti g a ti n g , b e c a u s e i t m a y w e ll b e t h a t
c e r t a i n p e o p l e w e r e p r e p a r e d t o g o t o v e r y g r e a t l e n g t h s t o tr y a n d
make sure that people who stood against certain things at SABC were
d e a lt w i t h a n d if o n e is g o i n g to lo o k a t w h a t u l ti m a t e l y m i g h t n e e d t o
b e r e c o m m e n d e d t o tr y a n d p r e v e n t s i m il a r th in g s h a p p e n i n g in t h e
f u t u r e , o n e n e e d s t o u n d e r s ta n d t h e fu ll e x t e n t o f w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g ,
s o I t h i n k t h a t th e in v e s ti g a t o r s w h o m u s t f o l lo w t h e s e t h in g s u p a n d
10

t h e le g a l t e a m c a n g u i d e t h e m .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I t h i n k th e y m u s t b e f o ll o w e d u p a n d I w o u l d l ik e
t o b e u p d a t e d i n a f e w w e e k s ti m e a s to h o w f a r t h e y h a v e g o n e to tr y
a n d e s t a b l is h , g e t f u ll c l a r i ty a b o u t s o m e o f th e s e t h i n g s a n d s o m e o f
t h e s e c h a r a c t e r s th a t w e r e i n v o lv e d , t h e p o lic e o ff ic e r w h o w a s
in v o lv e d i n t h is th i n g a n d t h e h a n d l in g o f t h e m a tt e r r e la t in g t o
s o m e b o d y t h a t i s k n o w n b y th e S A B C w h o c h a s e d S A B C s t a ff e r s a n d
a l m o s t g o t th e m k il le d b e c a u s e a n y th i n g c o u ld h a v e h a p p e n e d w i t h
t h e m d r iv i n g y o u k n o w t h r o u g h r e d r o b o ts a n d w h a t e v e r, b u t it j u s t
20

s e e m s li k e t h e m a t te r w a s n o t b e i n g g iv e n t h e s e r i o u s n e s s a n d u r g e n c y
t h a t i t d e s e r v e d , s o I w o u ld l ik e i f y o u c a n t a k e t h a t f u r t h e r a n d g e t t h e
in v e s t i g a t o r s t o lo o k i n t o a l l o f th o s e t h i n g s , I w o u l d l ik e to b e u p d a t e d
b e f o r e th e e n d o f S e p te m b e r a s t o h o w f a r e v e r y t h i n g is .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir, w e w il l d o t h a t, t h a n k

you.

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
CHAIRPERSON: Mmm.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h e n C h a ir a s I h a v e i n d ic a t e d b e c a u s e

o f t h e p a c i n g o f th e a n n e x u r e s th e n t h e p a r a g r a p h s , n o w w e a r e a t
p a r a g r a p h 1 7 5 , i t m a y a p p e a r a s i f w e h a v e j u m p e d b u t i t is a c tu a lly t h e
sequence.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y n o t h a t ’s f in e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s th a n k y o u , t h e n y o u m a k e m e n t io n o f

y o u r c o ll e a g u e M s S o p h i e M o k w e n a a n d j u s t t e ll t h e C h a i r w h a t
h a p p e n e d b e tw e e n y o u a n d h e r.
10

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

W e w e r e c o m i n g b a c k fr o m

K r iv a n i ’s o ffic e , w e h a d a d is p u t e a b o u t a s to r y i n v o lv i n g S A P, o n e o f
t h e I T c o m p a n i e s fr o m G e r m a n y a n d h o w i t h a n d l e d t h e is s u e o f
c o n tr a c ts w i t h E s k o m a n d th e G u p ta s . S o I f e l t t h a t i n t h is c a s e , a n d I
w a s y o u k n o w I w a s in t w o m i n d s e v e n a s I w a s a r g u in g b u t I f e l t th a t
jo u r n a li s tic a l ly w e d i d n o t h a v e c r e d i b l e s o u r c e s o n t h e s to r y, b u t t h a t
is a s e p a r a t e m a t t e r, b e c a u s e w h e n w e c a m e b a c k I f o l lo w e d h e r to h e r
o ffic e w h e r e w e w e r e s ti ll ta lk in g a b o u t S A P a n d th e n s h e t o l d m e t h a t I
a m d e f e n d i n g S A P b e c a u s e I w a s a n a p a r t h e i d s p y a n d I s a id y o u m u s t
b e c r a z y, y o u m u s t t a k e s o m e m e d s , I h a v e n e v e r b e e n a n a p a r t h e i d
20

s p y, I w a s a n a c t iv i s t f r o m t h e a g e o f 1 2 , a n d t h a t w a s a d i s c u s s io n t h a t
ju s t w e n t s o u th .
A fe w w e e k s la t e r M a n d e l a p a s s e d a w a y, I w a s a w a r e t h a t
S o p h i e w a s c lo s e t o M a n d e l a a n d t h e f a m il y a n d o n t h e s i d e l in e , a n d
t h a t s h e , M a h l a ts e ( i n d is t in c t ) t h e h e a d o f S A N E F, t o l d m e a ft e r t h e s p y
a l le g a ti o n s n o w w e r e b l o w i n g h o t a n d f u r i o u s a n d I w a s b e i n g i n s u l t e d

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
a l l o v e r s o c ia l m e d i a t h a t S o p h i e h a d t a k e n h e r t o s e e M a n d e l a a n d
M a n d e la I t h i n k p r o m p t e d b y S o p h ie , th is i s w h a t I r e a d in t o M a h l a ts e
( in d is ti n c t) to l d m e , t h e n to l d h e r t h a t I a m s u p p o s e d to b e a s p y a n d a
jo u r n a li s t c a ll e d D e s h n e r e c o r d e d M a n d e l a d o i n g t h i s o n t h e s i d e l in e s
o f t h e l a u n c h o f a d o c u m e n t a r y.
T h e n i n a 2 0 1 5 m e e ti n g S o p h ie t h e n s a y s t h a t w e m u s t t h e n
p r e p a r e f o r a s t o r y a b o u t j o u r n a lis t w h o w e r e a t S t r a t c o m a n d I a m s ti ll
n a iv e l y u n a w a r e t h a t t h e is s u e is m e h e r e . T h e n I w e n t t o Vi ll a g e Wa lk
t o a g a t h e r i n g a b o u t e t h i c s a n d w h e n I o p e n e d m y p h o n e I d is c o v e r e d
10

t h a t t h e w h o l e t o w n w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t m e b e i n g a s p y, a n d I g o t a c a l l
fr o m S a m M k o k e li , t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e M e d i a Fr e e d o m C o m m i t t e e o f
S A N E F, a n d a c o l l e a g u e , a n d h e s a i d Th a n d e k a w h a t a r e w e a t S A N E F
t o d o a b o u t t h i s , t h e s e s p y a ll e g a t io n s .

What can you say?

I have

n e v e r b e e n a s p y.
I t h e n w e n t h o m e a n d I c a l le d t h e c h u r c h

My father was one

o f t h e l e a d e r s o f th e S o u t h A fr ic a n C o u n c i l o f C h u r c h e s , a n d Pr e s i d e n t
o f t h e M e th o d i s t C h u r c h , s o I r e a c h e d o u t t o t h e Ar c h b is h o p , T h a b o
M a g o b a , w h o w a s a t u n iv e r s i ty w i th m e , a t W i ts a n d h e w a s tr a v e lli n g ,
h e w a s i n R o m e , I s a i d t o h i m T h a b o I a m h u r ti n g in p l a c e s I d id n ’ t
20

e v e n k n o w e x is t , I j u s t n e e d s o m e k in d o f s p ir i t u a l c o u n s e l , w h a t is
t h is , a n d t h e n h e s a i d I w il l a t t e n d t o y o u o n c e I r e t u r n fr o m R o m e . T h e
n e x t c a ll I m a d e w a s t o ( i n d i s ti n c t) a n d I s a i d to ( in d is ti n c t) A d v o c a te
( in d is ti n c t) t h a t w h a t t h e y a r e d o i n g t o m e , t h e E F F i s r e a ll y
u n w a r r a n t e d a n d I ta k e s tr o n g e x c e p ti o n t o i t .

I p h o n e d D a h li M p o fu

w h o w a s a ls o a c l a s s m a te o f m i n d , a c o m r a d e o f m in e , w e w e r e

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
a r r e s t e d t o g e t h e r a t W i ts U n iv e r s i ty.

W e s p e n t th e b e t te r p a r t o f o u r

fi n a l y e a r in s o li t a r y c o n f in e m e n t , w e a r r i v e d a t J o h n Vo r s t e r t o g e t h e r.
I p h o n e d h i m a n d I s a i d D h a li y o u a r e C h a ir m a n o f t h is t h in g , y o u n e e d
t o d o s o m e th i n g a n d h e s a i d – I s a i d D h a li s i n c e w h e n a m I a s p y, h e
s a i d o h m a n G q u b s I k n o w y o u a r e n o t a s p y, a n d I c o u l d n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d
w h y t h i s t h i n g i s a r u n a w a y fir e , w h y is i t n o t b e i n g d o u s e d b y r e a s o n
a n d s a n it y. N e e d l e s s t o s a y, i t w a s f iv e d a y s o f t h is . M y b r o t h e r, t h e
e c o n o m is t D u m a G q u b u l e d i d n ’ t g o t o w o r k . H e w a s s o e n r a g e d a n d s o
a g g r ie v e d th a t h e d e c id e d t o g o o n l in e a n d fi g h t e v e r y s in g l e tr o ll . I
10

d e c i d e d t o a p p ly t o e v e r y s i n g le i n t e ll i g e n c e a g e n c y i n t h e c o u n tr y t o
h a v e m y a p a r t h e i d r e c o r d s d e c l a s s i fi e d . O n c e t h e y w e r e d e c l a s s i fi e d , I
d is c o v e r e d th a t I w a s n ’ t a s p y w is h I k n e w a n d th a t I w a s s p ie d o n
h e a v il y e s p e c i a lly i n my fir s t j o b a s a r e p o r t e r a t t h e W e e k ly M a i l , c a lls
t o L u s a k a , t o To m S e b i n a a n d e v e n o p e r a ti o n s o f S tr a tc o m t h a t w e
d i d n ’ t k n o w a b o u t . L i k e o p e r a ti o n Ar is t o tl e a n d a ll o f th o s e w e r e u s e d
t o s p y o n m e a n d m y c o m r a d e s in t h o s e d a y s b e fo r e I w a s a j o u r n a li s t.
S o , i t’s o n ly th r o u g h t h is t h a t w e w e r e a b l e t o p u t i t t o b e d . I a l s o h a d a
m e e ti n g

with

Nomavenda

Mthiyane

who

was

a ls o

u n f o r t u n a t e ly

fi n g e r e d . A n d s h e r e m in d e d m e t h a t o n t h e l a s t d a y o f t h e s e v e n d a y s
20

o f t h e t e s ti m o n y o f M a m M a n d e la a t t h e tr u t h C o m m i s s io n A d v o c a te
D u m i s a N s e b e z a p u t i t t o h e r t h a t h e h a d b e e n g iv e n b y S tr a tc o m t h e
lis t o f j o u r n a l is ts w h o w e r e s p ie s a n d th a t t h e t h r e e n a m e s T h a n d e k a
G q u b u l e , A n t h o n H a r b o u r a n d N o m a v e n d a M th iy a n e w e r e n o t s p i e s o r
w e r e n o t o n t h e l is t . S o , e v e n a s M a h l a ts i ’s b e i n g i n v i te d t o lis t e n to m y
s p y in g e v e r y b o d y k n e w t h a t th e r e w a s n o s u c h i n t e r m s o f w h a t w a s l e d

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
a s e v i d e n c e b e f o r e t h e tr u t h C o m m i s s io n . T h e m a t t e r is s ti ll b e f o r e t h e
C o u r t . I t w i ll b e h e a r d . I t ’s a d e f a m a ti o n m a t t e r. A d v o c a t e . .. ( i n d i s t i n c t)
is s e t t o a r g u e t h is m a t t e r b e f o r e th e C o u r s e i n O c t o b e r. B u t w e s e e it
a s p a r t o f a s l e w o f s m e a r s t h a t w e r e m e a n t t o d e v a s t a te u s a n d
d e s tr o y u s s o m e d a y C h i e f J u s t ic e . I’ m j u s t h a p p y w h e n I w a k e u p t h a t
I’ v e w o k e n u p a liv e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . S o r r y, M r C h a ir m a n w e ’v e g o n e
p a s t 5 o ’c l o c k . I’ m s o r r y I l o s t tr a c k o f t i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , I t h in k i t ’s b e t te r t h a t w e fi n i s h .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t w e f i n is h ? T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . S h a ll w e t h e n d e a l
w i t h t h e is s u e w h e r e t h e S u n d a y W o r ld a c c o r d i n g t o p a r a g r a p h 1 7 7
w e r e t h e y p u b li s h a n a r ti c l e a b o u t y o u a n d th e S I U . C o u l d y o u ta lk t o
that?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

Ye s , I g o t a c a ll fr o m a j o u r n a lis t

b y t h e n a m e o f A u b r e y M t h o m b e n i . H e ’s f r o m th e S u n d a y W o r ld . H e …
( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

I ’ m s o r r y, le t m e i n t e r r u p t y o u . M r P r e t o r i u s , I k n o w

we need to meet but I know we need to meet but it may be that if your
o th e r c o m m i t m e n ts d ic ta t e th a t m a y b e w e s h o u ld r a t h e r m e to m o r r o w
m o r n in g th a t w o u l d b e fi n e .
M R P R E TO R I U S : I d o n ’ t h a v e a m ic r o p h o n e .
CHAIRPERSON: But I can hear you.
M R P R E TO R I U S : I ’ m in y o u r h a n d s .

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R P R E TO R I U S : S o , i t d e p e n d s h o w l o n g t h e e v id e n c e w il l g o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s o , w e ’l l c o n ti n u e b u t i f w h i le w e a r e c o n t in u in g
y o u t h i n k le t ’s r a t h e r m e t o m o r r o w f e e l fr e e t o l e a v e a n d t h e n y o u c a n
t a lk t o m e l a te r in t h e e v e n i n g .
M R P R E TO R I U S : I w i ll d o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t. T h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n . Ye s ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s , I i n te r r u p t e d y o u . I t h i n k y o u
10

m i g h t h a v e t o r e p e a t t h e q u e s ti o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I b e g y o u r p a r d o n , s o r r y.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

I r e c e iv e d a c a ll , m a ’a m f r o m

A u b r e y M t h o m b e n i . H e ’s a jo u r n a l is t w i t h t h e S u n d a y W o r l d . H e w a s i n
p o s s e s s i o n o f m y e n t ir e e m p l o y m e n t fi le a t t h e S A B C . H e w a s a l s o i n
p o s s e s s i o n o f t h e s c o r e s , i n te r v i e w s c o r e s o f t h e p a n e l t h a t m e t t o l o o k
a t t h e p e r f o r m a n c e i n t h e i n te r v i e w o f v a r i o u s c a n d i d a te s f o r t h e p o s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C a n d id a t e s fo r a p o s i ti o n th a t y o u h a d a p p li e d f o r ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s , D e p u ty C h i e f J u s tic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e c u r r e n t p o s it i o n ?
20

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : T h e c u r r e n t p o s i t io n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, h m .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : A n d t h e h e a d l i n e o f t h e s to r y t h a t
h e s u b s e q u e n t ly w r o t e w a s S I U g u n s f o r G q u b u l e . N o w I w a s m y s t i fi e d .
T h e S I U h a d n o t e v e n in t e r v i e w e d m e a n d t h e S I U a t th e S A B C h a d

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b e e n q u it e b r i s k i n i n te r v i e w i n g p e o p l e , l o o k i n g f o r d o c u m e n ts a n d s o
o n s o f o r th . T h e y h a d n o t e v e n s a t d o w n w it h m e b e c a u s e t o m y
k n o w l e d g e t h e r e w e r e n o a ll e g a t io n s o f i m p r o p r i e t y. I d o n ’t s t e a l p u b lic
m o n e y. I f r o w n o n p e o p l e w h o d o a n d i t ’s ju s t n o t i n m y m a k e u p . S o , I
w a s j u s t w o r r i e d a n d m y s ti f ie d . S o , t h e S A B C 8 r e s p o n d e d i n a l e t te r
a ft e r th is p u b l ic a ti o n t o s a y t h a t fo r a b o u t a y e a r a n d a h a l f I h a d
r e fu s e d to r e t u r n t o t h e S A B C a f te r r e p e a t e d a p p r o a c h e s t o c o m e b a c k
t o fi ll t h e p o s i ti o n o f e c o n o m i c s e d i t o r. B e c a u s e th e y s a i d t h a t t h e y h a d
h a d s e v e n e c o n o m i c s e d i t o r s in a s h o r t s p a c e o f t i m e ; I t h i n k f o u r y e a r s
10

I’ m n o t s u r e a n d t h a t a ll o f t h e m h a d n ’ t l a s t e d . A n d th e y s a id t h a t t h e y
h a d tr o u b le fi ll i n g t h e p o s t . Th e tr o u b le w a s t o g e t t h e r i g h t c o m b i n a t i o n
o f a tr i p o d o f s k il ls w h ic h i s j o u r n a l is m , b u s i n e s s a n d e c o n o m ic s a s
w e ll a s b r o a d c a s t in g . S o , c a n d i d a te s t e n d e d t o h a v e .
CHAIRPERSON: One or the other or two or ja?
MS

THANDEKA

G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

One

or

the

o th e r

but

the

c o m b in a ti o n o f t h e th r e e w a s n o t p r o v i n g a c h a ll e n g e t o f il l a n d t h e y
w e r e r e l u c t a n t t o f il l i t ju s t a n y h o w. Th a t is w h a t I w a s t o l d . S o ,
e v e n t u a l ly I w r o te t o J i m m y a n d I s a i d , I ’l l c o m e . S o , I w a s c o n c e r n e d
t h a t t h e y i m p l i e d t h a t t h e S I U c o u l d p o s s i b ly b e g u n n i n g f o r m e . As i t
20

t u r n s o u t th e S I U w a s n ’t g u n n i n g fo r m e a t a l l a n d th is w a s j u s t p a r t o f
t h e s m e a r i n g t h a t s t e p p e d u p o n m e a ft e r S o o n e r d i e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th is w a s w h e n n o w i n t e r m s ? T h is w a s 2 0 1 8 ?
MS THANDEKA GQUBULE-MBEKI:

T h i s is a ll 2 0 1 8 . I n 2 0 1 8 D e p u ty

C h i e f J u s tic e , I b e c a m e a s p y. I w a s c h a s e d b y a c a r ; t h e S I U a n d w e
w e r e a c c u s e d o f t a k i n g B o s a s a m o n e y w h i c h w a s a ls o u n tr u e .

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y, y e s . T h a n k y o u . Th a n k y o u , C h a ir.
M a y b e n o w t h a t y o u ’v e d e a l t w i t h t h e is s u e o f y o u r a p p o in t m e n t a n d t h e
in t e r v ie w, I s h o u l d

ju s t b r i n g

to

your

a t te n ti o n

that Mr

H la o d i

M o ts o e n e n g h a s s u b m i t te d a n a ffi d a v it t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n . A t p a g e ,
p a r a g r a p h 1 2 8 o f h is a ff id a v i t h e s a y s , t h e C o m m is s i o n a m o n g s t o th e r
t h i n g s t h a t h e d e a l s w i th a b o u t v a r i o u s e m p l o y e e s . H e s a y s ,
The

C o m m is s i o n

should

a ls o

check

th e

new

a p p o i n t e e s a n d c h e c k w h a t k i n d o f p r o c e s s e s w a s f o l lo w e d
e s p e c i a l ly T h a n d e k a G q u b u l e w h o m I h a v e b e e n a d v is e d n e v e r
a tt e n d e d a n y in t e r v i e w s .

10

I k n o w y o u d o d e a l w i t h th e i n te r v i e w i s s u e in y o u r a ffi d a v i t i n
p a r t ic u l a r a t p a g e 2 6 . T h a t y o u c o u l d n o t a t t e n d w h e n o t h e r p e o p l e
w e r e in t e r v i e w e d b u t y o u w e r e s u b s e q u e n tl y in t e r v i e w e d .
MS

THANDEKA

G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

Ye s ,

I

was

s u b s e q u e n tl y

in t e r v ie w e d b y S e fa k o N y a k a , t h e h e a d o f c u r r e n t a ff a ir s a n d b y N y a n a
M o le t e a n d th e n I h a d a n in t e r v i e w w it h J i m m y M a t t h e w s a n d I , j a .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u . Th a n k y o u , C h a ir.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : B u t t h is w a s m y th ir d r e t u r n to t h e
SABC.
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : S o , I w a s a k n o w n e n t i ty.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MS THANDEKA GQUBULE-MBEKI:

So, they knew what they were

g e t t in g a n d w h a t t h e y w e r e n o t g e t t in g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

A n d h e a d h u n t i n g is a le g i t i m a te

p r o c e s s a n d I g u e s s H l a o d i w o u l d k n o w t h a t.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , t h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n p a r a g r a p h 1 8 0

y o u d e a l w i th t h e d e a t h o f Ms S u n a Ve n t e r a n d y o u a r e r e l a ti n g h e r
d e a t h t o th e t h r e a t s t h a t y o u w e r e a ll r e c e iv in g o r a r e y o u j u s t
m e n ti o n i n g t h e m a t t e r ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : S u n a w a s u n w e ll .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :
10

S u n a h a d a h e a r t c o n d i ti o n b u t

S u n a w a s r e a lly, r e a lly g o i n g th r o u g h t h e m o s t. S h e w a s tr a u m a ti z e d .
A t c e r t a i n t i m e s I w o u l d a s k h e r b e c a u s e s o m e o f t h e s tu ff s e e m j u s t s o
b iz a r r e , s o u n b e l ie v a b le a n d i t’s o n ly a f t e r h e r d e a th t h a t w e r e a li z e d
t h a t y o h , S u n a h a d s u ff e r e d a lo t . A n d s h e w a s s h o t i n th e fa c e i n
W e s t d e n e . Th is is n o t f a r f r o m w h e r e I w a s c h a s e d . S h e w a s , h e r h o u s e
w a s b u r g l e d , s h e w a s c o n s t a n tly s c a r e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I : B u t D e p u ty C h i e f J u s t ic e t h e p la c e
is r e p le t e w i t h m y s t e r io u s d e a t h s .
CHAIRPERSON:

20

I t ’s v e r y m y s t e r i o u s . S o m a n y th i n g s r e a ll y a r e

mysterious.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

T h e d e a t h o f th e f o r m e r h e a d o f

le g a l i s v e r y b iz a r r e , I m e a n b e i n g

shot at a

ti m e

when

the

in v e s t i g a t io n s a r e g o i n g o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n y o u l o o k a t a l l o f t h e s e t h i n g s th a t w e r e

h a p p e n in g t o th e S A B C 8 a n d s o m e o f t h e m h a p p e n i n g t o in d i v i d u a ls

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w h o w e r e in t h e S A B C 8 lik e y o u r s e l f a n d M s Ve n t e r m a y b e m o r e
p a r t ic u l a r ly o n e s w h ic h s t r e tc h e d in t o 2 0 1 8 a n d s o o n . A r e y o u a b l e to
s a y th e r e m a y b e o t h e r t h i n g s o t h e r t h a n t h e s t a n d y o u t o o k a g a i n s t s o c a l l e d p r o t e s t p o l ic y a n d d ir e c t iv e s t h a t w e r e is s u e d in 2 0 1 6 th a t y o u
a r e a b l e t o l in k t h is w i t h ? To s a y, i t m a y b e i t’s th is a n d t h a t a n d t h a t
a n d m a y b e i t’s n o t p a r t o f i t . I t ’s n o t c o n n e c t e d w it h th a t s ta n c e y o u
t o o k o r a r e y o u o n ly a b le t o s a y, i f i t’s c o n n e c te d w i th a n y th i n g it lo o k s
lik e i t c a n o n l y b e c o n n e c t e d w i t h th e s t a n d y o u t o o k t h e n ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : I d o n ’ t k n o w, D e p u t y C h ie f J u s t ic e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n ’ t k n o w ? Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t ’s c o n n e c t e d t o i t
a n d w h a t ’s n o t c o n n e c t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS THANDEKA GQUBULE-MBEKI:

W h a t I k n o w is t h a t in q u ic k

s u c c e s s i o n , d e v a s ta t in g e v e n ts o c c u r r e d t o u s a n d w h a t is m o s t
c o n c e r n i n g i s th e i n s ti t u ti o n a l r e s p o n s e t o t h e e v e n ts . I ’l l g iv e a n
e x a m p l e . I a s k e d N o ms a P h i lis w a f o r th e w h i s tl e - b l o w e r p o li c y o f t h e
S A B C b e c a u s e if y o u ’ v e g o t a w h is tl e - b lo w e r li n e y o u m u s t h a v e a
w h is t le - b lo w e r p o lic y. A n d w e h a d h o p e d t h a t w e c o u l d d e a l w i t h t h is ,
20

t h e s e th in g s a r e h a p p e n in g t o u s t h r o u g h t h e p r o t e c t e d d is c l o s u r e s A c t
w h ic h c o m p a n i e s a r e o b l ig e d to f o l lo w a n d i m p l e m e n t p r o t e c t io n s f o r
in t e r n a l w h is tl e - b l o w e r s . S h e r e s p o n d e d b y s a y i n g , t h e r e is n o s u c h
e n t i ty S A B C a n d t h e r e f o r e , y o u c a n n o t r e ly o n w h a t d o e s n ’ t e x is t . I
r e m e m b e r I w a s d r iv in g w i th h e r in a c a r. An d I s a id , b u t t h is is a n o b r a i n e r. I t ’s t h e l a w. Yo u h a v e t o h a v e i t . Yo u c a n ’t s a y t o m e t h e r e i s

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n o s u c h a n d t h e r e fo r e y o u r r e l i a n c e o n i t i s n il o r i t’s j u s t s o m e t h i n g
b a n a l . S o , I m y s e l f a n d B u s i a n d t h e o t h e r s s o u g h t to e n g a g e W e b b e r
W e n tz e l a g a i n to c o n s tr u c t a p o t e n t i a l o r a d r a f t o r a s k e l e t a l w h i s t l e b l o w e r p o li c y to p r o t e c t n o t j u s t u s b u t a n y o n e w h o i n f u tu r e h o p e s t o
s t a n d u p i n w o r k p l a c e s e s p e c i a l ly a t t h e S A B C . A n d W e b b e r W e n tz e l
d i d t h i s a n d a b o u t a f e w w e e k s a f t e r W e b b e r W e n tz e l h a d d r a f t e d th is
s k e le t a l w h is tl e - b l o w e r p o lic y fo r u s a t o u r b e h e s t . W e l l , th e n e w
g e n tl e m a n , t h e n e w h e a d o f H R J o n a t h a n T h e k i s o s i m p l y p r o d u c e d t h e
w h is t le - b lo w e r p o l ic y f r o m t h e a n n a ls o f t h e I T s y s t e m w i t h i n t h e S A B C
10

a n d it w a s d a t e d 2 0 1 3 a n d h e g a v e i t t o u s . H e s a i d , t h e S A B C h a s
c o m p li e d . H e r e i s th e w h is t le - b lo w e r p o l i c y. W h a t w a s t h a t a l l a b o u t?
S o , e v e n a s w e w e r e b e in g t o ld b y a u t h o r i t y t h a t t h e r e is n o s u c h , t h e r e
w a s a w h is tl e - b l o w e r p o lic y. S o , w e w e r e b e i n g l e d u p th e g a r d e n p a t h
b e c a u s e t h e a r g u m e n t th a t w e c a n n o t r e l y o n t h i s w a s t o b e m a d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d c o m p a r i n g t h e 2 0 1 3 p o l ic y a n d th e o n e t h a t h a d
been prepared by Webber Wentzel, you would have no issues with the
2 0 1 3 o n e ? I t w a s f in e a s w e ll ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : T h e 2 0 1 3 o n e i s f i n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m b u t it h a d a l m o s t b e e n fo r g o t te n . N o t m a n y p e o p l e

20

knew about it.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : N o t m a n y p e o p le k n e w a b o u t i t a n d
n o t m a n y p e o p l e tr u s te d t h e i n t e r n a l w h i s t le - b lo w e r m e c h a n is m . T h e
p e r c e p t io n w a s t h a t i f y o u m a d e u s e o f t h e i n te r n a l w h is tl e - b l o w e r
m e c h a n is m y o u w o u l d b e t o a s t . A n d in d e e d , t h e h i s to r y o f w h i s t l e b l o w e r s in th e S A B C i s t h a t t h e y g e t w h i p p e d o u t o f th e s y s t e m . S o ,

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lik e K r i v a n i a n d t h e r e s t o f t h e S A B C 8 w o u ld th a t p a r tic u la r ly fo r
S O E s . T h is c o u n tr y c a n d e v e l o p m e a s u r e s t o i n s u l a t e a n d p r o t e c t
w h is t le - b lo w e r s f r o m h a r m a n d fr o m e x p e r i e n c i n g t h e k i n d s o f h a r m th a t
w e h a v e e x p e r i e n c e d . A n d b e c a u s e t h e y a r e th e o n e s w h o w o u l d s t a n d
b e t w e e n u s i n fu t u r e c a p t u r e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. C a n I j u s t a s k b e fo r e I
t a k e y o u t o th e la s t p a r a g r a p h ? A s y o u w o u ld , I ’ m s u r e y o u w o u l d
a p p r e c ia t e th a t y o u ’v e r e a c h e d t h e e n d o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

C o u l d y o u j u s t t e l l t h e C h a ir p e r s o n

b e c a u s e t h i s i s a m a t te r th a t M s P il l a y h a d r a i s e d r e g a r d i n g t h e r e p o r t
t h a t M r J o e T l o l o h a d p r e p a r e d a f t e r h a v i n g b e e n c o m m is s i o n e d t o d o
s o b y th e S A B C . A n d y o u in d i c a t e d in c o n s u l t a ti o n t h a t y o u h a d r a is e d
c e r t a i n c o n c e r n s a b o u t th a t r e p o r t a n d I w o u ld l ik e y o u t o r a is e th o s e
s o th a t w h e n M r T lo l o c o m e s b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s i o n t o m o r r o w, h e is
a w a r e o f t h e m a t t e r s t h a t y o u a r e c o m p la i n in g a b o u t .
MS THANDEKA GQUBULE-MBEKI:

Ye s , I d i d s o i n c o r r e s p o n d e n c e

w i t h t h e c h i e f e x e c u ti v e M a d o d a M q a k w e a n d P h a t is o M a g o p e n i , o u r
b o s s a s w e ll a s N t a t e J o e T l o l o . I r a is e d t h e is s u e th a t th e r e a r e c e r t a i n
20

m e e ti n g s i n h i s r e p o r t w h e r e J i m m y a n d S i b u le l o a r e p l a c e d in t h o s e
m e e ti n g s w h e r e t h e y r e a l ly w e r e n o t th e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is J i m m y M a t t h e w s ?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: And who?
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I : S i b u l e lo , M s S i b u l e l o D i tl a k a n y a n a .

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
S h e w a s n ’t in s o m e o f th o s e m e e ti n g s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : W h e r e s h e is p l a c e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I : A n d N t a t e Tl o lo p o in t e d o u t t h a t in
h is v i e w t h e s e a r e m i n o r is s u e s a n d th e y d o n ’t a ffe c t t h e s u b s t a n c e o f
h is f in d i n g s . H e s a i d , i n fa c t t h a t t h e s e a r e t y p o g r a p h i c a l e r r o r s b u t i n
o u r v i e w th e s e e r r o r s h a v e b e a r in g b e c a u s e t h e y i m p ly e i t h e r J i m m y ’s
c o m p lic i ty o r S i b u l e l o ’s c o m p lic i ty in m a t t e r s w h ic h t h e y r e a l ly w e r e n o t
10

in v o lv e d . S o , w e w o u ld w a n t t h a t p a r t o f th e r e p o r t c o r r e c t e d b u t o u r
b o a r d a n d o u r C E O is a w a r e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I :

A n d t h e r e a r e j u s t s o m e d e ta il s

a b o u t w h o w a s c h a ir i n g w h a t m e e t i n g th a t n e e d to b e c o r r e c t e d . T h e
o th e r c o n c e r n th a t w e h a v e b e y o n d K r iv a n i’s c o n c e r n is t h a t jo u r n a l is ts
m u s t a ls o b e a c c o u n ta b l e in s o m e w a y to t h e p r o f e s s io n a n d t o s o c i e t y.
P r e c is e ly b e c a u s e th e y p l a y a k e y r o l e in th e d e m o c r a tic d i s p e n s a ti o n
a n d p u b l ic s e r v i c e b r o a d c a s t j o u r n a l is ts in p a r t ic u l a r b e c a u s e o f th e
p o w e r t h a t t h e y w i e l d . To s p e a k e v e r y d a y t o 2 8 m i ll io n p e o p l e i s a
20

h u g e p r iv il e g e th a t m u s t g o w i th i n o r d i n a t e r e s p o n s ib il i ty. A n d t h e
i m p u n it y t h a t is c o n d o n e d i n t h e J o e T lo l o r e p o r t is f o r m e i n a d e q u a t e
a s a r e s p o n s e t o th e ty p e o f m o r a l e t h ic a l c r i s is t h a t j o u r n a li s m f a c e d
a t t h e p u b l ic b r o a d c a s te r. T h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . W e w i ll r a is e th o s e . T h e y w i ll
be

raised

w i th

him

to m o r r o w

m o r n in g .

Page 220 of 230

Thank

you.

C h a ir …

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll , I’ m s o r r y b e fo r e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w th a t y o u r a is e d t h e is s u e o f j o u r n a lis t s b e i n g

a c c o u n t a b l e th a t th e y ’v e g o t a c c o u n t a b i li t y, y o u m a y o r m a y n o t k n o w
t h a t I h a v e o n a f e w o c c a s i o n s c o m p la i n e d t h a t j o u r n a lis t s a n d m e d i a
h o u s e s a r e v e r y m u c h i n t h e h a b it o f g iv in g p e o p le a b o u t w h o m t h e y
h a v e s to r i e s t o w r i t e v e r y i n a d e q u a te t i m e to r e s p o n d , v e r y s h o r t
n o t ic e . W e h e r e in th e C o m m i s s i o n h a v e b e e n s u b je c te d t o t h e s a m e
10

t h i n g a n d it lo o k s li k e w h a t e v e r a p p e a l I m a k e t o t h e m e d ia t o s a y, n o t
ju s t u s e v e r y b o d y p le a s e j u s t g iv e p e o p l e a d e q u a t e t i m e t o p u t t h e ir
s id e o f t h e s to r y. I t lo o k s li k e t h e y s a y, a h w e d o n ’ t c a r e a b o u t th a t . Yo u
g e t t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t i f j o u r n a lis t s o r e d it o r s th i n k t h a t t h e y ’v e g o t a
s c o p e o r w h a t e v e r t h e y d o n ’ t c a r e a b o u t s o m e b o d y e ls e ’s r i g h t s . E v e n
t h e k i n d o f n o ti c e t h a t t h e y s o m e ti m e s g i v e i t ’s l ik e th e y t h in k e v e r y o n e
m u s t b e s i tt i n g a n d d o in g n o t h i n g a n d ju s t w a i ti n g fo r th e m t o w r it e a n d
s a y p l e a s e c o m m e n t m y d e a d l i n e is t o m o r r o w. A n d t h e y m u s t d r o p
e v e r y t h i n g a n d r e s p o n d b e c a u s e t h e y g iv e y o u t h a t s h o r t n o ti c e s o t h a t
in th e a r t ic l e , t h e y ’ll b e a b le t o s a y h e d id n o t c o m e b a c k to u s . W e

20

in v i te d h i m o r h e r to c o m m e n t , h e d i d n ’ t b u t a c tu a lly t h e y g i v e y o u a n
e x tr e m e l y s h o r t n o ti c e to d o a n y t h in g a n d I d o n ’ t u n d e r s ta n d w h y s o
m a n y j o u r n a l is ts a p p e a r t o t h i n k it ’s r i g h t t o d o t h a t . I s u s p e c t t h a t i t ’s
t h e ir o w n c o n c e r n s , m a y b e s e lf is h c o n c e r n s a b o u t b e in g t h e o n e w h o
c o m e s o u t w i th th e s to r y f ir s t a n d s o o n . B u t i f th e s a m e t h i n g s w e r e to
b e d o n e t o t h e m , t h e y w o u l d n ’ t . T h e y w o u l d fi n d t h is u n a c c e p t a b l e . S o ,

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
y o u w o n d e r w h e r e a r e t h e s e p r i n c i p l e s o f f a ir n e s s t h a t w e a r e a ll t o l d
a r e s o e n tr e n c h e d in j o u r n a li s m . S o , I ju s t m e n t io n e d th a t f o r w h a t i t ’s
w o r t h b e c a u s e I h a v e m e n ti o n e d i t o n a fe w o c c a s io n s i n r e g a r d t o
o th e r p e o p l e b u t in r e g a r d to th e C o m m i s s io n a s w e l l y o u k n o w. I t h in k
s o m e t i m e e a r l y t h is y e a r o r l a s t y e a r th e C o m m i s s i o n w a s a p p r o a c h e d
o n S a t u r d a y a ft e r n o o n b y a S u n d a y n e w s p a p e r t o s a y, w e m u s t
c o m m e n t . T h e y w a n t t o r u n a s t o r y t h e f o ll o w i n g d a y. I m e a n , w h a t is
t h a t ? Ar e w e s u p p o s e d t o b e s i t ti n g a n d d o i n g n o t h i n g a n d j u s t w a i ti n g
in c a s e o n e o r o t h e r n e w s p a p e r r i g h t s a n d s a y s , c o m m e n t ? S o , w e m u s t
10

b e a v a i l a b le t o c o m m e n t w i th in 2 4 h o u r s . I t’s j u s t u n a c c e p ta b l e b u t i t ’s
h a p p e n in g a n d s o m e th in g m u s t b e fo u n d t o c o r r e c t it b e c a u s e n o b o d y
w o u ld lik e th a t k i n d o f t h i n g t o b e d o n e t o t h e m w h e n t h e y a r e o n t h e
o th e r s i d e o f t h i s th i n g . S o , I m e n t io n i t f o r w h a t i t’s w o r t h . Yo u a r e
q u i te s e n i o r i n t h e fi e l d a n d y o u m a y o r m a y n o t b e a b le t o s a y, w e ll
t h is is th e j u s t if ic a ti o n w h y p e o p l e d o t h is i n th e i n d u s tr y o r y o u m i g h t
b e a b l e t o r a is e i t w h e r e a n d w h a te v e r f o r a . To s a y y o u k n o w, t h e r e is
r e a l ly c o n c e r n a b o u t th is k i n d o f t h in g . I m e a n w h a t e v e r t h e p e r s o n h a s
d o n e y o u k n o w, p r o c e s s is d i ff e r e n t fr o m th e m e r i ts . J u s t m a k e s u r e
t h a t t h e p r o c e s s is f a i r y o u k n o w. S o , o k a y a l r i g h t . Th a t w a s ju s t m y

20

thought.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I : I d o t a k e i t s e r i o u s ly D e p u t y C h ie f
J u s t ic e . I s i t o n t h e N a ti o n a l C o u n c i l o f t h e … ( i n d is ti n c t) . I a t te n d th e
m e e ti n g s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o t h a n k y o u .
MS

THANDEKA

GQUBULE-MBEKI:

I

do

Page 222 of 230

feel

that

th e r e

is

a

05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
c o n v e r s a ti o n a b o u t e t h ic s m o r e b r o a d l y t h a t w e h a v e to h a v e a s a n
in d u s tr y e s p e c ia ll y a t t h e ti m e w h e r e r e v e n u e s a r e s e r i o u s ly s q u e e z e d
a n d s o s c o o p c u l tu r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : Is e n c o u r a g e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS THANDEKA GQUBULE-MBEKI:

We need to draw some rules of

s o m e s o r t t o i n tr o d u c e t h e p r i n c i p le s o f f a ir n e s s b u t is a c o n v e r s a ti o n
t h a t I d o b e li e v e t h e in d u s tr y h a s t h e i n te ll e c t u a l f a c u l t y t o e n g a g e
10

with.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I : A s w e ll a s th e w il l t o lo o k i n w a r d s
a n d fi n d r e s o l u t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s . I t’s q u i te i m p o r ta n t b e c a u s e e v e n fo r t h e

p r o f e s s i o n a l j o u r n a lis t s i f I’ m t h e s u b j e c t o f t h e s t o r y t h a t a p a r t ic u l a r
jo u r n a li s t w r it e s . I m u s t b e a b l e w h a te v e r th e s t o r y s a y s a b o u t m e , I
m u s t b e a b l e t o s a y, t h i s j o u r n a li s t w a s ju s t d o i n g h e r j o b ; w a s j u s t
d o i n g h is jo b a n d i t ’s n o th i n g p e r s o n a l . A n d I m u s t b e a b l e t o s a y, e v e n
t h o u g h I d is a g r e e w i t h th is a n d t h a t a n d t h a t b u t h e o r s h e is j u s t d o i n g
20

h e r j o b a n d s h e h a s fo ll o w e d a f a ir p r o c e s s . B u t w h e n I ’ m n o t g iv e n
a d e q u a t e ti m e , I’ m l ik e l y t o t h i n k t h i s jo u r n a li s t d o e s n ’ t c a r e a b o u t m y
r ig h ts a s a n i n d iv id u a l . H e o r s h e j u s t c a r e d a b o u t b e in g t h e f ir s t w a n t
t o c o m e u p w i t h a s t o r y a n d I d o n ’ t th i n k t h a t ’s a g o o d p e r c e p ti o n t h a t
t h e p r o f e s s io n s h e ’ d w a n t t o h a v e . I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t th a t a l l s e l fr e s p e c ti n g jo u r n a l is ts w o u l d w a n t a s i t u a ti o n w h e r e y o u m i g h t w r i t e

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
a b o u t s o m e b o d y b u t t h a t p e r s o n w o u l d b e a b l e t o s a y, t h e r e ’s n o th i n g
p e r s o n a l . Yo u a r e ju s t d o in g y o u r j o b a n d y o u a r e n o t b e i n g s e n t b y
c e r t a i n p e o p le t o w r it e c e r ta i n t h i n g s a b o u t m e . Yo u h a v e n o t b e e n
c a p tu r e d . Yo u a r e j u s t d o i n g y o u r j o b . B u t w h e n s o m e o f th e s e th i n g s
h a p p e n , I t h i n k i t ta in t s t h e i m a g e o f th e p r o f e s s i o n b e c a u s e t o o m a n y
p e o p l e t h i n k jo u r n a l is ts a r e n o t f a ir. T h e y a r e d r iv i n g c e r t a in a g e n d a s
a g a in s t c e r t a i n p e o p l e a n d i t ’s n o t g o o d th a t t h e p u b l ic s h o u ld h a v e t h a t
k in d o f p e r c e p ti o n a b o u t s u c h a n i m p o r t a n t p r o fe s s i o n . O k a y a lr i g h t ,
thank you.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u , M r C h a ir m a n . T h a n k y o u . J u s t
la s t ly, w h a t y o u ’ v e t o l d t h e C o m m i s s i o n f o r t h e t w o a n d a h a lf h o u r s
t h a t y o u ’v e b e e n s i t ti n g t h e r e , y o u s u m m a r iz e i t a t p a g e 2 7 . A n d I t h i n k
it ’s o n ly f a ir t h a t I a l lo w y o u t o j u s t r e a d t h a t p a r a g r a p h in t o th e r e c o r d
b e c a u s e i t s u m m a r iz e s e v e r y t h i n g t h a t y o u ’v e t o l d t h e C h a ir p e r s o n .
Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
MS THANDEKA GQUBULE-MBEKI:

D u r in g th e p a s t 1 0 y e a r s , a

d e t e r m i n e d a n d c o r r u p t g r o u p o f p e o p l e l a i d s ie g e t o t h e p u b li c
b r o a d c a s t e r t o lo o t i t o f h is r e s o u r c e s a n d to l e a d i t a s tr a y fr o m i ts
m a n d a t e . I t w a s a s y s te m a t ic a n d r ig o r o u s p r o j e c t . I t in v o lv e d p e o p le
20

in s i d e t h e S A B C a n d t h o s e o u ts i d e o f i t . T h e y w is h e d t o b e n d t h e
n a r r a t iv e t o s u i t t h e ir m is a p p r o p r i a ti o n a g e n d a . Th e y w e r e i n d i ffe r e n t
t o t h e h u m a n r i g h ts o f c i t iz e n s a n d e m p l o y e e s o f t h e S A B C . T h e y
v io l a t e d th e p u b lic ’s r i g h t t o k n o w h o w t h e y a r e g o v e r n e d . T h e y v i o l a t e d
t h e r i g h t o f fr e e d o m o f e x p r e s s i o n o f t h e ir jo u r n a l is ts . T h e y v io la t e d
la b o u r r i g h t s a n d t h e r i g h t s t o p r i v a c y th e c i tiz e n s a n d j o u r n a li s t s h a v e .

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T h e c o r p o r a ti o n b u c k l e d u n d e r t h e l o o ti n g a n d t h e p lu n d e r. 4 .1 b il li o n
w a s u n a c c o u n t e d f o r. T h e n e w s r o o m w a s a p l a c e o f f e a r a n d p i t c h e d
b a t t le s . T h e y w e r e v i c i o u s i n t h e ir e x e c u t io n o f t h e i r p r o j e c t a n d in t h e i r
w a k e m a n y p e o p l e s u ff e r e d ; e m p l o y e e s , f a m i li e s , c h i ld r e n . Th o s e
c o n s i d e r e d t o b e o p p o n e n t s o f th e i r a g e n d a w e r e d e a l t w it h r u th le s s ly.
T h i s i s t h e s t o r y o f o u r r e c e n t h is t o r y a s a c o r p o r a ti o n . I t is a ls o t h e
s t o r y o f o u r c o u n tr y o f h o w a c u t la s s o f p e o p le l a i d s ie g e to o u r liv e s
a n d o u r li v e li h o o d s a n d h e l p e d t h e m s e lv e s to o u r f u t u r e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u , M r C h a ir m a n . Th a t
10

is t h e e v i d e n c e fr o m t h is w it n e s s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : M a y I s a y o n e la s t t h i n g ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
MS THANDEKA GQUBULE-MBEKI:

D e p u ty C h i e f J u s ti c e , w e w a n t t o

thank you for hearing us. We have been yearning to have some moment
o f c a t h e x is w h e r e w e f in a l ly te ll i t a ll . W e a r e w o r r i e d a b o u t t h e S A B C .
T h e S A B C a s y o u m a y h a v e h e a r d o r s e n s e d i s a p l a c e th a t in f la m e s a
lo t o f p a s s i o n s a n d i t ’s a m u c h - lo v e d c o r p o r a t i o n b y i ts w o r k e r s . A n d i ts
f u t u r e i s i n d a n g e r i f w e c a r r y o n w i t h th e c u r r e n t f u n d i n g m o d u l e w h ic h
20

is a lr e a d y d is r u p t e d b y th r e e f a c to r s . It w a s d is r u p te d b y t h e p l u n d e r
and

the

s te a l i n g

and

t h a t’s

why

some

of

us

didn’t

want

the

r e tr e n c h m e n t ’s b e c a u s e t h e s t a ff h a v e s u ff e r e d s o m u c h a n d t h e y
d i d n ’ t , t h e y a r e n o t r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h e p lu n d e r. A n d s o , o t h e r s m u s t
p l u n d e r a n d t h e y m u s t s u ff e r. T h e n th e s e c o n d p a r t is t h a t d ig i ta l
d is r u p ti o n h a s h a p p e n e d . P e o p le n o lo n g e r w a t c h T V t h r o u g h t h e

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n o r m a l d e v ic e th a t y o u p a y fo r a n d T V l ic e n s e , t h e f u t u r e o f t h e T V
lic e n s e is a m e c h a n is m fo r e x tr a c ti n g s u ffi c i e n t r e v e n u e e v e n t h o u g h
it ’s 1 5 % is i n d a n g e r b e c a u s e o f t h is d i g i t a l d is r u p ti o n a n d t h e m u l ti p l e
u s e o f d e v ic e s ; th e u s e o f m u l ti p l e d e v ic e s ; e x c u s e m e . T h e t h i r d f a c to r
is t h a t o f b r o a d c a s t e r s in t h e w o r l d a n d t h e S A B C 8 t o o k t h e ti m e t o
tr a v e l t h r o u g h o u t G e r m a n y a n d t o d o r e s e a r c h o n o t h e r p u b li c
b r o a d c a s t e r s th r o u g h o u t th e w o r ld . Th e 3 % c o n tr i b u ti o n o f th e p u b li c t o
t h e b r o a d c a s t e r i s a n a n o m a l y g lo b a l ly. T h e p u b li c d e s e r v e s a h e a l t h y
s o u n d p u b lic b r o a d c a s t e r t h a t is n o t s u b j e c t t o c a p tu r e . Fi n a n c i a l
10

v u l n e r a b il i ty t h e r e fo r e e n a b l e s c a p t u r e . I t e n a b le s p o l it ic ia n s to p l a y
g a m e s w it h t h e f u tu r e o f th e S A B C b y w i t h h o ld in g f u n d s a n d i t m a k e s
t h e S A B C a d i c ta t e t o b a i lo u ts b e c a u s e t h e m a n d a t e , t h e n o b l e
m a n d a t e is u n f u n d e d . S o , t h is u n fu n d e d m a n d a t e is in n e e d n o w o f
a n o t h e r b a i l o u t a n d it ’s n o t fo r t h c o m i n g a n d m i s e r y i s a b o u t t o b e g i n .
A n d m i s e r y in o u r c o u n t r y e s p e c ia lly w h e n i t c o m e s to s o p o w e r f u l
m e c h a n is m o f p o li ti c a l , s o c i a l a n d e c o n o m ic c o m m u n ic a ti o n i t is g o in g
t o r e s u l t i n a n o t h e r o p p o r t u n i ty f o r a l o o t in g s p r e e . A n d a t t h e S A B C
t h e s t a ff fe a r t h e d a y th a t o u r h o n o u r a b le c u r r e n t l e a d e r s w a lk o u t t h e
d o o r a n d le a v e u s t o t h e r a v a g e s o f e n e m i e s th a t w e ’v e s e e n b e f o r e .

20

CHAIRPERSON:

T h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d o f S A B C , t h e c u r r e n t

g r o u p C E O M r Mx a k w e a n d n o w y o u r s e l f . A ll o f y o u h a v e s p o k e n a b o u t
t h e s i t u a ti o n i n w h i c h th e S A B C fi n d s i ts e l f w it h n o f u n d i n g c o m in g . A n d
t h e s e n s e I’ v e g o t e a c h t i m e e a c h o n e o f y o u I m e a n w h e n e v e r e a c h
o n e o f y o u s p o k e is th a t th e S A B C is o r m a y w e l l b e o n th e b r i n k o f a
c a l a m i ty w h ic h c o u l d h a p p e n a n y t i m e . I s m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g c o r r e c t ?

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M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : I t is . I t is v e r y c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : D e p u t y C h i e f J u s tic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u a b le t o p u t y o u r f in g e r o n w h e t h e r th e r e a r e
a n y l e g i ti m a t e r e a s o n s t h a t p e o p le w i t h in t h e S A B C t h i n k m a y b e
b e h in d t h is s i t u a t io n o r w h a t y o u m a y b e th in k i n g w h y t h e S A B C i s
a l lo w e d t o b e in , t o s t a n d o n t h e b r in k o f t h is c a l a m i ty w h e n t h a t c o u l d
b e a v o id e d ? A n d fr o m w h a t I ’v e h e a r d c o u l d h a v e b e e n a v o id e d b y
f u n d i n g b e in g p r o v i d e d m o n t h s a g o ?
10

M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E - M B E K I : A l l I c a n s a y is t h a t , th e s to r y o f
t h is c o r p o r a ti o n is o n e f o r th e a g e s b e c a u s e i t i s s o p o w e r fu l th a t th e
p o w e r f u l s e e k to t a m e i t . A w e a k e n e d S A B C is a c o n tr o ll a b l e S A B C .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th a t i s w h e r e e v e r y t h i n g r e v o lv e s . A n d w e l l, M r

M x a k w e to ld m e t h a t t h e s it u a ti o n i s s o b a d t h a t h e fi n d s h i ms e lf , h e
fi n d s t h a t e v e r y w e e k h e h a s t o s p e a k t o h i s e x e c u t iv e c o l le a g u e s t o
a s k t h e m n o t to r e s i g n . W h ic h s e e m e d t o s u g g e s t t o m e h i s p l e a s c o u l d
a n y ti m e b e c o m e i n e ffe c t iv e a n d h is c o l le a g u e s m i g h t s a y, t h a t ’s i t . A n d
I t h in k b o th , I t h in k t h e C h a ir p e r s o n a l s o if I’ m n o t m is ta k e n i n d i c a t e d
t h e c h a l le n g e t h a t c o u l d h a p p e n i f t h a t w e r e to h a p p e n . A n d o f c o u r s e ,
20

that we don’t know where that could put the SABC other than what we
k n o w h a p p e n s w h e n a c a l a m i ty h a p p e n s . I s a i d t o M r Mx a k w e i f I r e c a l l
c o r r e c t ly, I’ m n o t s u r e w h a t i f a n y t h in g I c a n d o a t t h is s ta g e b e f o r e I
fi n i s h e d th e w o r k o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n . B u t I ’ m v e r y c o n c e r n e d a b o u t
w h a t t h e s it u a ti o n o f t h e S A B C t h a t h a s b e e n d e s c r i b e d t o m e b y
s u c c e s s i v e w i t n e s s e s h e r e . A n d i t’s a s i t u a ti o n w h e r e o n e w o u l d n ’ t lik e

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a c a la m i ty t o h a p p e n a n d t o s a y, m a y b e I c o u ld h a v e d o n e s o m e t h in g .
B u t s o m e t i m e s i t’s d i ffi c u l t to s e e w h a t o n e c a n d o . S o , b u t i t ’s
s o m e t h i n g th a t is v e r y c o n c e r n in g . I ’ m r e fl e c t in g o n i t , ja . Th a n k y o u .
Thank you very much Ms Gqubule Mbeki.
M S T H A N D E K A G Q U B U L E- M B E K I : T h a n k y o u , C h i e f J u s tic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r h a v i n g c o m e fo r w a r d t o s h a r e y o u r e x p e r i e n c e s a t
t h e S A B C o v e r th e p e r i o d t h a t y o u h a v e d e a l t w i th a n d t o te ll m e a b o u t
w h a t h a p p e n e d to th is S A B C 8 d u r in g t h e p e r i o d t h a t y o u h a v e
d e s c r ib e d . I’ m h a p p y th a t y o u d id c o m e f o r w a r d t o g iv e e v id e n c e . I’ m
10

h a p p y t h a t o t h e r p e o p l e fr o m t h e S A B C c a m e f o r w a r d i n c lu d in g t h e
o th e r m e m b e r s o f th e S A B C 8 . Yo u m a y h a v e t o c o m e b a c k a t s o m e
s t a g e i f w e h a v e r e a s o n t o a s k y o u t o c o m e b a c k a n d I ’ ll s t il l h e a r o t h e r
e v i d e n c e a n d s o o n . B u t I b e li e v e t h a t t h e ju d g m e n t o f t h e L a b o u r C o u r t
v in d ic a te d y o u r p o s i t io n i n r e g a r d t o w h a t y o u s t o o d f o r. O f c o u r s e , y o u
h a v e d e s c r ib e d t o m e a l o t o f o t h e r th i n g s th a t w o u l d h a v e h a p p e n e d
a ft e r th a t h a p p e n e d t o y o u . T h e is s u e o f b e i n g c h a s e d b y a c a r o v e r a
c e r t a i n p e r i o d . I t h i n k y o u r s t a t e m e n t s m a y b e s a y in g it w a s 1 5 m in u t e s
o r w h a te v e r o f b e i n g c h a s e d . I t m u s t h a v e b e e n a d i ff ic u l t ti m e w h e n
y o u d id n ’t k n o w w h e th e r y o u w o u l d c r a s h a g a i n s t a c a r. B u t a s I h a v e

20

in d i c a t e d , I w o u l d li k e t h e in v e s ti g a t o r s o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n t o l o o k i n t o
s o m e o f t h e is s u e s t h a t y o u h a v e r a is e d . I t is v e r y i m p o r ta n t th a t w e
h a v e p e o p l e w h o w il l s t a n d , s t a n d u p w h e n t h i n g s h a p p e n w h i c h th e y
b e li e v e a r e w r o n g a n d b e c a u s e i f n o b o d y s t a n d s u p th e n w r o n g th i n g s
d o n ’t g e t s t o p p e d . I’ m r e a l ly h a p p y th a t y o u a n d t h e o th e r w i tn e s s e s
c a m e a n d g a v e e v id e n c e . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h a n d t h e o th e r is s u e s

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t h a t I s a i d s h o u l d b e in v e s ti g a t e d w i ll b e i n v e s ti g a te d a n d I w i ll a s k t h e
in v e s t i g a t o r s a n d th e le g a l t e a m t o k e e p y o u i n fo r m e d . I h a v e n o d o u b t
t h a t y o u w i ll g iv e w h a te v e r c o o p e r a ti o n t o th e m . A n d t h e n y o u w o u ld
h a v e h e a r d w h a t I s a i d e a r l ie r t o th e o th e r w i t n e s s e s t h a t I’ m v e r y k e e n
f o r p e o p l e i n th e m e d i a t o r e f l e c t o n w h a t i n p u t , c o n tr i b u ti o n t h e y c a n
m a k e t o t h e C o m m i s s io n w i t h r e g a r d t o w h a t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s I s h o u ld
c o n s i d e r m a k in g i n r e g a r d to w h a t h a p p e n e d a t th e S A B C , w h a t
h a p p e n s w it h p o li t ic a l in t e r f e r e n c e w i t h e d i to r i a l p o li c i e s , e d i to r i a l
in d e p e n d e n c e . S o , p e o p l e lik e y o u s h o u l d w o r k o n t h a t s o t h a t a t t h e
10

r ig h t ti m e t h e C o m m i s s io n c a n b e e n r ic h e d b y t h e s u b mi s s io n s t h a t th e
m e d i a c a n m a k e . S o , t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h fo r c o m in g o n c e a g a i n a n d
y o u a r e e x c u s e d . Th a n k y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u , M r C h a ir m a n . T h a t i s a l l fo r

t o d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is a ll fo r t o d a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: And how many have we got tomorrow?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

To m o r r o w w e ’v e li n e d u p o n ly t w o

w i t n e s s e s M r C h a ir m a n a n d t h a t’s o n e o f t h e t h i n g s I lik e to t a l k t o y o u
20

a b o u t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e y a r e n o t g o i n g to b e lo n g w i t n e s s e s a t
a l l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h a t m i g h t m e a n t h a t w e m ig h t h a v e to

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05 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 157
fi n i s h e a r l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , w h a t ’s y o u r e s t i m a t e w h e n w e m ig h t fi n i s h ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t h i n k b y lu n c h ti m e . W e s h o u ld e v e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B y l u n c h ti m e ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O r e v e n s li g h t ly b e f o r e lu n c h ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. N o , t h a t ’s f i n e b u t w e ’l l s t a r t a t 1 0 o ’c l o c k
then.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e w i ll a d jo u r n a t th e s t a g e a n d th e n t o m o r r o w w e

w i ll s t a r t a t 1 0 o ’ c l o c k . W e a d j o u r n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u , Mr C h a ir m a n .
R E G I S T R A R : A l l r is e .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 0 6 S E P T E M B E R 2 0 1 9

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