C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 05 FEBRUARY 2020 D AY 2 0 7 20 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 PROCEEDINGS RESU ME ON 5 FEBRUARY 2020 C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M r M b i k i w a , g o o d m o r n in g e v e r y b o d y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W e a r e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Ms S a m b o y o u – t h e o a t h y o u to o k y e s t e r d a y c o n ti n u e s t o a p p l y t o d a y o k a y ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u u n d e r s t a n d ? 10 M S S A M B O : Ye s I u n d e r s t a n d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . MS SAMBO: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Let us proceed. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M s S a m b o b e f o r e w e s ta r t c o u l d I a s k y o u ju s t t o m o v e t h e m ic r o p h o n e a l it t l e b i t c l o s e r t o w a r d s y o u s o t h a t w e c a n – w e c a n h e a r. M s S a m b o w e fi n i s h e d y e s t e r d a y ’s p r o c e e d in g s w i t h y o u e x p l a i n i n g t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p th a t y o u h a d w it h A A R . F r o m t h e o u t s e t y o u r a t t e m p ts t o s e c u r e a n a g e n c y a g r e e m e n t a n d th e i r reluctance to do so. 20 I f w e c a n t h e n p i c k i t u p fr o m p a r a g r a p h 1 5 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t a n d c a n y o u j u s t te ll u s i n b r o a d t e r m s a f t e r y o u r r e t u r n fr o m th e U n i te d S t a t e s h o w d i d y o u r – y o u r r e l a t i o n s h ip w i t h A A R t h e n develop? MS SAMBO: O k a y w h e n I r e tu r n e d fr o m t h e U S o n t h e fi r s t t o A A R I tr i e d s e v e r a l t i m e s t o c o n t a c t M s C h e r y l J a c k s o n t o c o n t i n u e t h e d is c u s s io n a n d tr y i n g t o p r o b e m o r e f o r – f o r u s to g e t a n a g r e e m e n t – Page 2 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 s o r t o f a n a g r e e m e n t w i t h th e m . A n d I w a s a ls o i n tr o d u c e d t o M r S h a h w h o w a s a l s o w o r k i n g f o r A A R b u t b a s e d i n t h e M i d d l e E a s t a n d l o o k in g a ft e r M i d d l e E a s t a n d A fr ic a . A n d t h e r e w e r e t w o – w h e n I w e n t t o A A R I w a n te d – I t a lk e d to t h e m a b o u t t h e c o m p o n e n ts b i d t h a t n o r m a lly c o m e s o u t e v e r y fi v e y e a r s fr o m S A A Te c h n ic a l . B u t a s s o o n a s I g o t c lo s e r t o w o r k i n g w i t h S A A Te c h n ic a l th e n I a ls o r e a l is e d t h a t t h e y a l s o h a v e q u o t a ti o n s y s te m s f o r c o n s u m a b l e s . S o o n i t e m 1 5 I t h in k t h is w a s a q u o t a ti o n f o r o n e o f th e c o n s u m a b l e s t h a t I s e n t t o M r S h a h t o – t o q u o t e u s s o th a t w e c o u l d r e s p o n d f o r th e i g n i t o r p l u g s a t S A A 10 Te c h n i c a l . I t h a s g o t n o th i n g t o d o w it h t h e c o n tr a c ts . The big c o m p o n e n ts c o n tr a c t. I t is a q u o ta t io n fo r c o n s u m a b l e s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Indeed and what was the – what was your p r o p o s a l a s t o h o w a t th a t s t a te y o u r r e l a ti o n s h i p w o u l d w o r k ? MS SA MBO: N o t h e q u o ta t i o n s y s t e m is s tr a ig h t fo r w a r d . I sent the e n q u ir y – t h e y g i v e m e a q u o t a ti o n – I p u t m y m a r k - u p a n d I q u o t e th e c li e n t . T h e n i f I g e t t h e p o s i t iv e r e s p o n s e t h e n I w o u l d o r d e r a n d s u p p ly t o t h e c l ie n t . B u t I h a v e n e v e r h a d th a t r e l a ti o n s h i p w i th A A R . I h a v e n e v e r o r d e r e d a n y t h in g f r o m t h e m b u t fo r t h i s o n e y e s th e y d i d q u o t e m e b u t I d i d n o t g e t t h e – I w a s n o t a w a r d e d t h a t q u o t a ti o n . 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h e n y o u s p e a k i n y o u r a ff id a v i t a b o u t y o u r e ffo r t s t o s e t u p a m e e t in g b e t w e e n Mr S h a h a n d M r M u s a Z w a n e . W h o is Mr Z w a n e ? MS SAMBO: M r M u s a Zw a n e w a s t h e C E O o f S A A Te c h n ic a l a t th a t ti m e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d d i d y o u k n o w h i m a t t h i s s ta g e ? Page 3 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 M S S A M B O : K i n d ly r e p h r a s e y o u r q u e s t io n w h i c h s t a g e ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A t th e p o in t a t w h ic h y o u tr y in g to s e t u p a m e e ti n g b e t w e e n h i m o n th e o n e h a n d a n d r e p r e s e n ta t iv e s o f A A R o n t h e o th e r a r o u n d J a n u a r y 2 0 1 3 ? M S S A M B O : N o , n o , n o I w a s s ti ll tr y i n g t o g e t t o h a v e a m e e t i n g w i t h h i m s o t h a t I c o u l d k n o w h i m . Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w h a t w e r e y o u tr y in g to a c h ie v e b y s e t ti n g u p a m e e ti n g w i th M r Z w a n e ? MS SA MBO: 10 I w a n te d t o i n tr o d u c e A A R in d i c a t e s t h a t i n t r o d u c e S R S a v i a ti o n a n d i n d i c a t e o u r i n te r e s t i n d o i n g b u s in e s s w i t h S A A Te c h n ic a l a n d fo r h i m a s t h e C E O t o g u id e i n w h ic h i s t h e r o u te t h a t w e n e e d to t a k e t o b e a b l e t o d o t h a t . A n d a ls o A A R f r o m t h e b e g i n n i n g – fr o m t h e fir s t m e e ti n g i n C h ic a g o t h e y r e q u e s t e d t h a t I g e t a m e e ti n g w i t h h i m s o t h a t i s w h a t I w a n t e d t o g e t a n a p p o i n t m e n t w it h h i m s o t h a t A A R c a n c o m e a n d m a r k e t t h e m s e l v e s b e t t e r. I d id n o t – I w a s n o t t e c h n ic a l s a v v y a t t h a t ti m e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Can we then turn to what you describe as t h e fir s t b i d – t h e fi r s t S A AT b i d ? A n d h e r e y o u d e s c r ib e a te n d e r. W h a t w a s th e t e n d e r f o r ? 20 MS SAMBO: I t w a s f o r t h e s u p p ly o f a ir c r a f t c o m p o n e n ts f o r v a r i o u s a ir c r a f t ty p e s a t S A A Te c h n ic a l . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d y o u s a y t h a t y o u d o w n l o a d e d th is b i d d o c u m e n t a n d s e n t i t t o – t o Mr S h a h a n d Ms J a c k s o n . What – what w a s y o u r p r o p o s a l i n d o in g th a t ? MS SAMBO: I t w a s a fo ll o w u p o n t h e d i s c u s s i o n t h a t w e w a n t t o d o Page 4 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 b u s i n e s s w i t h t h e m a n d t h e t e n d e r w a s a n o p e n te n d e r. I d o w n lo a d e d it fr o m t h e S A A w e b s it e a n d s e n t t o t h e m a n d s a i d , n o w t h i s is t h e o p p o r t u n i ty f o r u s t o g e t t h a t d e a l o n t h e t a b l e . H e r e is a t e n d e r l e t u s respond. I f w e g e t it t h e n i t w i ll c r e a t e t h a t o p p o r tu n it y f o r u s to g o in t o t h e n e x t s t a g e o f a f u l l p a r tn e r s h i p o r a n a g e n c y a g r e e m e n t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d y o u – y o u s a y t h a t y o u t h e n v is i te d th e A A R o ffi c e s a g a in i n a r o u n d M a r c h 2 0 1 3 . W h a t w a s t h e p u r p o s e o f t h a t v is it ? M S S A M B O : T h e p u r p o s e o f th a t v is it w a s t o s h o w A A R t h e s i n c e r i t y 10 a n d t h e – h o w – h o w I r e a lly w a n t e d to d o th is . H o w m u c h I r e a l ly w a n t e d t o d o th is . I u s e d m y o w n c o s ts – a t m y o w n ti m e , w e n t b a c k t o s a y, h e r e I a m I s t il l d o b e li e v e t h e r e is a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o s u p p ly S A A Te c h n i c a l a n d t h e n t h e r e s t o f t h e c o n t in e n t . Can we please have an a g r e e m e n t i n p la c e ? S t ill I d i d n o t g e t th e a g r e e m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e y o u w e n t th e r e h a d t h e y r e s p o n d e d i n a n y w a y t o t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e y o u h a d s e n t t o th e m a l e r ti n g t h e m t o – t o t h i s bid? M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t h a d th e y – w h a t h a d b e e n t h e ir r e s p o n s e ? 20 M S S A M B O : R e g a r d i n g t h e b i d M r S h a h t h e n d e c id e d t o c o m e t o S o u t h A fr ic a t o c o m e a n d w o r k o n t h e b id w i t h m e . S o t h e y d id p o s i ti v e ly r e s p o n d . A n d p r i o r to t h a t a ls o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d e a n d I n d u s tr y a t th e E m b a s s y in C h ic a g o b e tw e e n 2 0 11 a n d 2 0 1 3 t h e y h a v e b e e n a ls o p r o b in g A A R t o e n g a g e w i th m e . S o th e r e h a s b e e n c o m m u n ic a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: S o a f t e r y o u h a d s e n t t h e m th e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e Page 5 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 a l e r ti n g t h e m t o t h is t e n d e r a n d b e f o r e y o u w e n t th e r e in M a r c h t h e y r e s p o n d e d p o s i t iv e ly in t e r m s o f w a n ti n g t h e t w o o f y o u t o w o r k t o g e th e r o n t h i s b id ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . M S S A M B O : A b s o lu t e l y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Yo u s a y t h a t p a r t o f y o u r r e a s o n f o r g o in g t h e r e w a s t o f o r m a li s e t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e tw e e n S R S a n d A A R . Were you able to do that in any way? 10 MS SAMBO: U n fo r t u n a t e ly n o t . A A R s a i d t o m e t h e y w i ll s i g n a t e a m i n g a g r e e m e n t w i t h S R S w h e n w e r e s p o n d t o th e b i d . a p p lic a b l e t o th e p e r i o d o f t h a t b i d . T h a t is B u t th e r e w a s n o lo n g s ta n d i n g agreement. C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e y o u w e n t t o C h i c a g o i n M a r c h y o u s a i d t h a t M r S h a h r e s p o n d e d a n d w a n te d to w o r k w i t h y o u o n t h e b i d . Was – did y o u – d i d t h e t w o o f y o u d o q u i t e s o m e w o r k o n t h e b i d b e fo r e y o u w e n t to Chicago? M S S A M B O : I w il l n e e d t o c o n fi r m . Th e r e a r e d e t a ils o f w h e n M r S h a h c a m e t o m y o ffi c e . C a n I j u s t f i n d t h e d e t a ils t o r e s p o n d t o th a t? 20 CHAIRPERSON: J a t h a t i s fi n e ja . I ju s t w a n t t o – t o s e e w h a t p r o g r e s s i f a n y t h e t w o o f y o u h a d m a d e b e fo r e y o u w e n t t o C h ic a g o o r in M a r c h ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M s S a m b o I t h i n k p a r a g r a p h 2 5 is t h e o n e y o u a r e l o o k in g fo r. MS SA MBO: Okay thank you so much. Page 6 of 180 Ye s M r S h a h c a m e to o u r 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 o ffic e s a f t e r I c a m e b a c k fr o m t h e U S . S o t h e y r e s p o n d e d p o s it iv e l y t h a t th e y w o u ld w o r k w i t h m e a n d h e n c e I a ls o w e n t a c r o s s to C h ic a g o . T h e n w h e n I c a m e b a c k M r S h a h c a m e fr o m D u b a i s id e – fr o m t h e M i d d l e E a s t t o th e n c o m e a n d w o r k o n t h e r e s p o n s e f o r th e b i d w i th m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d th is m e a n t h a t t h e t w o o f y o u d i d n o t w o r k o n t h e b i d b e f o r e y o u w e n t to C h ic a g o i n M a r c h ? MS SAMBO: No. CHAIRPERSON: N o – n o y o u d id n o t o r d o y o u m e a n y o u d i d w o r k t o g e th e r o n t h e b id b e f o r e y o u w e n t t o C h i c a g o in M a r c h ? 10 M S S A M B O : N o w e d i d n o t w o r k o n t h e b i d t o g e t h e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. B u t h a d t h e y r e s p o n d e d t o th e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a t t h a t t i m e b e f o r e y o u w e n t to C h ic a g o in M a r c h ? M S S A M B O : Ye s t h e y h a d r e s p o n d e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e ir r e s p o n s e w a s p o s i t iv e ? M S S A M B O : I t w a s p o s it iv e y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o w h e n y o u w e n t t o C h ic a g o i n M a r c h d id y o u w a n t t o c o n c r e ti s e t h e a r r a n g e m e n t i n t h e l ig h t o f th e p o s it iv e response? M S S A M B O : Ye s b e c a u s e n o w t h e r e w a s b i d . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MS SAMBO: That we could both respond to. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S A M B O : A n d A A R s a i d y e s w e w il l s ig n a t e a m i n g a g r e e m e n t b u t a s fa r a s t h i s b id is c o n c e r n e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. T h a n k y o u . Page 7 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Yo u s a y t h a t s h o r tly a f te r y o u r tr i p t o C h ic a g o y o u i n tr o d u c e d A A R t o s o m e o n e i n th e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d e a n d In d u s tr y. C a n y o u t e ll u s a b o u t t h a t ? MS SAMBO: Ye s o n e o f t h e r e q u ir e m e n t s o n t h e b i d is f o r a n y in t e r n a t io n a l o r m u l ti n a ti o n a l c o m p a n y t h a t s e e k s t o g e t a c o n tr a c t t h a t is w o r t h m o r e t h a n 1 0 m il li o n U S D o ll a r s t h e n t h e y h a v e a r e q u ir e m e n t t o c o m p ly w i t h t h e 3 0 % l o c a l is a t i o n i n a f o r m o f N I P w h ic h is th e N a t io n a l I n d u s tr i a l P a r t ic i p a ti o n P r o g r a m . S o t h a t p r o g r a m r e s id e s w i t h i n t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d e a n d I n d u s tr y a n d t h e l a d y w h o w a s 10 r e s p o n s i b l e f o r N I P – t h e N a ti o n a l I n d u s t r i a l P a r tic i p a t io n P r o g r a m w a s M s N o mv u la Ts a t s i w h o m I s e n t a n e m a i l t o in tr o d u c i n g A A R a n d in d i c a t in g t h a t w e r e s p o n d in g t o t h is b i d a n d w e w o u l d l ik e t o g e t m o r e in f o r m a ti o n i n u n d e r s ta n d i n g w h a t t h e p r o g r a m w a s a ll a b o u t . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll M r M b ik iw a y o u m i g h t w is h t o j u s t s p e ll th a t s u r n a m e o r f o r th e tr a n s c r ib e r o r th e – M s N o m v u l a i s i t Ts a t s i ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Ts a ts i t h a t is T- s - a - t- s - i . CHAIRPERSON: J a j u s t s o t h a t t h e t r a n s c r i b e r s w i ll n o t w r i te something that we cannot even understand. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u C h a i r. 20 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A n d y o u c a n d o th e s a m e f o r a l l t h e n a m e s t h a t a r e n o t – m i g h t n o t b e e a s y t o s p e ll i f t h e y d o n o t s e e a d o c u m e n t w h e r e th e y a r e w r i t te n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M s S a m b o y o u d i d – y o u d id a t s o m e p o i n t Page 8 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 c o n c l u d e a n a g r e e m e n t w i t h – w it h A A R , i s th a t r i g h t? M S S A M B O : Ye s t h e t e a m i n g a g r e e m e n t f o r th is b i d . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d te ll u s a b o u t t h e t e a m in g a g r e e m e n t? MS SAMBO: Th e t e a m in g a g r e e m e n t w a s d r a f t e d b y t h e l e g a l d e p a r t m e n t a t A A R C o r p o r a ti o n a n d i t w a s e m a il e d to m e . It was t a lk in g a b o u t u s r e s p o n d i n g to t h e b id a n d th a t – a n d i t w a s a c t u a l ly o u t li n i n g w h a t th e i r r e s p o n s i b i li t ie s w o u l d b e a n d w h a t w o u l d t h e ir r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s fo r S R S w o u ld b e . I w o u l d g u e s s w e w i ll s e e th e t e a m i n g a g r e e m e n t o n th e e v i d e n c e . 10 I d o n o t r e m e m b e r th e fu ll a g r e e m e n t a s i t is b u t w e c a n r e f e r t o i t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : b r i e fl y. No sure. I w o u ld l ik e t o g o t h e r e v e r y C o u l d I a s k y o u to t u r n t o p a g e 7 6 o f y o u r b u n d le t h a t is a t Ta b 9 ? M S S A M B O : Ye s I h a v e g o t i t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d i f y o u tu r n o v e r t h e p a g e t o p a g e 7 7 y o u w i ll s e e u n d e r 2 . 1 A t h a t t h e fir s t o f t h e o b j e c ti v e s i s t h e p a r ti e s a g r e e t h a t t h e o b je c tiv e s o f t h e S A AT p r o g r a m a r e t o w o r k t o g e t h e r t o p r o p o s e a c o m p o n e n t S A AT p r o g r a m t o S A AT a n d to c o n s e q u e n tly jo in t ly i d e n ti f y t h e t e c h n ic a l i n d u s tr i a l a n d m a r k e t r e q u ir e m e n t s f o r 20 such a program. Can I ask if you just look further down the page at P r i n c ip le s o f C o o p e r a t io n ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S R S A t h a t is S R S Av i a ti o n a s w e h a v e b e e n c a l li n g i t , is t h a t r i g h t ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . Ye s . Page 9 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : When it says provides support to AAR in w i n n i n g t h e S A AT p r o g r a m b y p r o v id i n g in t e l li g e n c e , w h a t d o e s th a t mean? MS SAMBO: W e r e a ll y d i d n o t u n p a c k i t b u t fo r m e I b e li e v e d t h a t is f o r m e t o d o m a r k e t r e s e a r c h . T h a t i s w h a t I b e l ie v e d . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e t o ld u s s o f a r in tr o d u c i n g t h e m t o N I P – t r y i n g to s e t u p a m e e ti n g w i th M r Z w a n e w o u ld i t b e f a ir t o s a y t h a t p a r t o f y o u r r o l e w a s t o in tr o d u c e A A R t o S A A a n d to t h e R e g u la t o r y R e q u i r e m e n ts i n S o u t h A f r i c a ? 10 M S S A M B O : Ye s t h a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n w e th e n ta lk a b o u t t h e – th e p r o c e s s o f p r e p a r in g th a t fir s t b i d s u b m is s io n . M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Yo u d id t h a t w i t h Mr S h a h y o u s a y ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W h a t d id t h a t in v o l v e ? M S S A M B O : I t i n v o l v e d th e te c h n i c a l a s p e c ts o f r e s p o n d in g t o – to t h e bid. Ev e r y b i d c o m e s w i t h m a n d a to r y r e q u ir e m e n ts a n d p a r t o f t h e m a n d a t o r y r e q u ir e m e n ts w a s t h e s u b m i s s i o n o f a ll t h e c o m p l i a n c e 20 d o c u m e n ts fr o m S R S Av i a ti o n s u c h a s th e t a x C l e a r a n c e C e r t i fi c a t e , t h e B E E C e r ti f ic a t e , t h e f u l l r e g is tr a ti o n D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d e a n d In d u s tr y. d o c u m e n ts from CIPC, the And Mr Shah was responsible to r e s p o n d t o th e t e c h n i c a l p a r t o f t h e – o f t h e b i d . Then once we c o m p il e d t h e t w o d o c u m e n ts w e b o u n d e d t h e d o c u m e n t a n d s u b m i tt e d a s a j o i n t b id . Page 10 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d M s S a m b o w h a t w a s t h e o u tc o m e o f t h a t tender? M S S A M B O : I t w a s c a n c e ll e d . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : D o y o u k n o w w h y ? MS SAMBO: Excuse me can I… C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s i t c a n c e ll e d b e f o r e S R S a n d A A R s u b m it t e d t h e ir bid? M S S A M B O : Ye s i t w a s a f t e r th e c l o s in g d a t e . I t w a s c a n c e ll e d . I d o n o t r e c a l l r e c e iv in g a f o r m a l le t t e r o f c a n c e l la t io n u n ti l I e n q u i r e d a t 10 S A A Te c h n ic a l a s k i n g fo r fe e d b a c k a b o u t t h e c o n tr a c t w h e n is i t g o i n g t o b e a w a r d e d ? A n d th a t i s w h e n I … CHAIRPERSON: But you say SS – SRS and AAR had already s u b m i tt e d i ts b i d ? M S S A M B O : S u b m i t te d . Ye s , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J o i n tly. M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M s S a m b o I t h in k y o u w e r e lo o k i n g f o r t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e in f o r m i n g y o u o f th e – t h e c a n c e l la t io n . 20 T h a t is a t p a g e 9 1 . A n d th e e m a il s t a r ts a t th e b o t t o m o f th e p a g e b u t c a r r i e s o n o v e r to p a g e 9 2 . MS SAMBO: Thank you. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C o u l d y o u g o t o 9 2 ? C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s . S o o n th e – o n th e 1 4 A u g u s t I r e c e iv e d a n e m a i l fr o m M s N o n ts a s a M e m e la a n d s h e h a d c c ’ d M s E v e l y n [ F a ll it ] Page 11 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 w h o w a s t h e C o m m o d i ty B u y e r f o r th is p a r ti c u la r c o n tr a c t r e s p o n d i n g to m y r e q u e s t f o r f e e d b a c k a n d th e e m a i l r e a d s : “ K i n d ly t a k e n o t e th a t i n li g h t o f t h e c u r r e n t c a s h fl o w c h a l le n g e s a n d t h e d r iv e t o s ig n i fic a n tl y r e d u c e o p e r a ti o n a l c o s ts . S A AT i s r e v i e w i n g i t s m a j o r s u p p li e r c o n tr a c ts h e n c e t h e d e c is io n t o e x e r c is e i ts o p t io n a s p e r C l a u s e 3 . 2 .4 “ c o n d i ti o n ” in t h e b i d d o c u m e n t to r e tr a c t t h e b id p r o c e s s . S A AT i s p l a n n in g t o g o o u t a n d r e - a d v e r t is e t h e t e n d e r a s soon 10 as f o ll o w e d all the i n te r n a l including processes ensuring that have the been te n d e r r e q u ir e m e n t s a n d t h e s c o p e a r e in li n e w i t h t h e l o n g t e r m tu r n a r o u n d s t r a t e g y. K in d l y t a k e n o te th a t e v e r y o n e is a ll o w e d t o b id a g a in . ” A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d j u s t t e l l u s w h a t th e d a t e o f t h a t e m a il was? M S S A M B O : T h e d a t e o f th e e m a i l w a s o n th e 1 4 A u g u s t 2 0 1 4 . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u . Ms Sambo you mentioned e a r l ie r a n d y o u s a y i n y o u r a ffi d a v it t h a t M s J a c k s o n p u t t h e U S 20 C o n s u la t e i n c o n t a c t w it h y o u . W h a t r o l e d i d t h e U S C o n s u la t e p l a y i n a l l o f th is ? MS SAMBO: O k a y p o s t s u b m i t ti n g t h e f ir s t b i d t o S A A Te c h n i c a l A A R c o n ta c t e d th e A m e r ic a n E m b a s s y h e r e in S o u th A fr ic a a n d r e q u e s t e d t h e m t o c o m e a n d d o a d u e d ili g e n c e o n m y c o m p a n y a n d m y s e l f . A n d t h e m e e ti n g w a s s e t u p a n d in d e e d I w a s in t e r v ie w e d a n d i n te r r o g a te d Page 12 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 in m y o ff ic e a t S A A ir w a y s P a r k . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d M s S a m b o y o u e v e n t u a ll y d i d m a n a g e t o s e t u p a m e e t in g w i t h Mr Z w a n e , is t h a t r ig h t? M S S A M B O : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n y o u te ll u s a b o u t t h a t m e e t in g ? M S S A M B O : O k a y I a m tr y i n g t o f i n d m y c o m m u n ic a t i o n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Yo u d e s c r i b e it in y o u r a ff id a v i t a t p a r a g r a p h 29. MS SAMBO: 10 Botha. Ye s . O n t h e 1 6 A p r i l 2 0 1 4 I s e n t a n o t h e r e m a il t o M s M s B o t h a w a s a p e r s o n a l a s s i s t a n t to M r Z w a n e a t S A A Te c h n i c a l c o p y i n g M r S h a h fr o m A A R i n t h e M i d d l e E a s t r e q u e s t i n g M r Z w a n e ’s a v a i la b ili t y t o a t te n d a m e e t in g o n t h e 1 0 M a y 2 0 1 4 b e t w e e n S R S Av i a ti o n , A A R a n d S A AT. A c o p y o f t h a t e m a il is a t ta c h e d i n o n e o f t h e a n n e x u r e s , A n n e x u r e 1 3 . T h a t m e e t in g e v e n t u a lly w a s c o n f ir m e d a n d i t t o o k p la c e o n a S a tu r d a y t h e 1 0 M a y 2 0 1 4 a t o n e o ’c l o c k a n d t h e v e n u e f o r th a t m e e t i n g w a s a t P i g a l le Vi ll a g e Vi e w S h o p p i n g C e n tr e i n B e d fo r d v i e w. T h is m e e ti n g w a s a t te n d e d b y m y s e l f , M r Ti m o th y Romenesko. CHAIRPERSON: 20 I am sorry Ms Sambo. I am sorry Ms Sambo. Mr M b ik i w a i t w i ll b e i m p o r ta n t t o e n s u r e t h a t a s f a r a s p o s s i b l e s h e is a b l e t o g i v e h e r e v i d e n c e fr o m h e r o w n m e m o r y e x c e p t w h e n s h e h a s to r e fr e s h h e r m e m o r y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: P a r tic u la r ly b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e is s u e s a b o u t h e r m e m o r y s o th a t w e k n o w w h e n s h e is – s h e c a n n o t r e m e m b e r a n d s h e Page 13 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 lo o k s a t t h e d o c u m e n t b e c a u s e s h e c a n n o t r e m e m b e r. But we know w h e n s h e g i v e s t h e e v i d e n c e fr o m h e r o w n m e m o r y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C e r t a i n l y C h a ir. C h a ir I h a v e b e e n i n fo r m e d t h a t w e a r e h a v i n g s o m e a u d io is s u e s w i t h t h e – w i th t h e m i c r o p h o n e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h is t h a t s o . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C o u l d w e a d j o u r n j u s t f o r fiv e m in u t e s t o tr y a n d s o r t th a t o u t ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 10 I n fa c t i t i s n o t t r a n s c r i b i n g s o i t is q u i t e i m p o r t a n t t h a t w e … i n fa c t i t is n o t tr a n s c r ib i n g s o i t i s q u i t e i m p o r ta n t that we… C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a t w il l – r e c o r d i n g fo r p u r p o s e s o f tr a n s c r ip t io n s . S o i t i s q u it e i m p o r t a n t t h a t w e a d j o u r n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y w e w i ll a d j o u r n t o e n a b l e th e te c h n ic i a n s to s o r t o u t t h e t e c h n ic a l p r o b l e m . W e a d jo u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l R is e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m t o l d th e p r o b le m h a s b e e n fix e d . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I t s e e ms s o , C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t d o - d o w e k n o w h o w m u c h o f t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t s h e g a v e w a s n o t c a p tu r e d , b e c a u s e y o u m i g h t h a v e t o g o b a c k a li t tl e b i t t o m a k e s u r e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a i r I a m t o ld th a t i n f a c t w e - i t w a s Page 14 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 recording. C H A I R P E R S O N : It - o h . O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : E v e n t h o u g h i t w a s n o t a m p l i fy i n g t h e sound. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W e d id g e t t h e r e c o r d i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S o t h e r e is n o i s s u e w i t h t h e t r a n s c r i p t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a t is f i n e . 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M s S a m b o y o u w e r e t e ll in g u s a b o u t t h e m e e ti n g w i th - w it h M r Zw a n e . C o u ld y o u t e ll u s w h a t - w h a t h a p p e n e d a t th a t m e e ti n g a n d - a n d a s t h e C h a ir i n d ic a te d r e ly i n g a s m u c h a s p o s s i b le o n y o u r - o n y o u r m e m o r y o f e v e n ts a n d - a n d u s i n g y o u r a ffi d a v i t i f n e c e s s a r y t o - t o r e fr e s h t h a t m e m o r y. MS SAMBO: M r Zw a n e O k a y. came to Th a n k y o u . the m e e t in g T h a n k y o u C h a ir. and he was On 10 May accompanied by M s N o m s a M e m e l a w h o w a s t h e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r P r o c u r e m e n t a t S A AT - S A A Te c h n ic a l a n d t h e r e w e r e tw o r e p r e s e n ta t iv e s fr o m A A R a n d o n ly m y s e l f fr o m S R S Av ia t io n . 20 A t t h e m e e t in g A A R w a s in tr o d u c i n g th e m s e lv e s a n d t h e p r o d u c ts t h a t t h e y o ffe r a n d t h e s e r v ic e s t h a t t h e y o ff e r a n d t h a t is w h a t th e c o n t e n t o f th a t m e e ti n g w a s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h o w d i d S A AT r e c e iv e t h is p r e s e n t a t i o n ? MS SAMBO: T h e y i n v i te d A A R t o c o m e b a c k a n d d o a f o r m a l p r e s e n t a ti o n w it h l i n e m a n a g e r s p r e s e n t a t S A AT p r e m is e s . Page 15 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s a n d t h e w a y th a t t h is m e e ti n g w e n t w a s i t s u c h that SRS and AAR were seen as working together or was AAR taken as working on its own? M S S A M B O : A t th is - a t t h a t m e e ti n g i t - w e in tr o d u c e d o u r s e lv e s a s a c o l l e c ti v e . As A A R . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S S A M B O : I n a p a r tn e r s h ip y e s . CHAIRPERSON: And then you were treated as such? M S S A M B O : Ye s . A t t h e m e e t i n g . Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h a t m e e t in g . J a . M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d Ms S a m b o ju s t r e m in d u s . A t th is p o in t w a s t h e te n d e r s t il l p e n d i n g ? M S S A M B O : I d o n o t r e c a ll … ( i n te r v e n e s ) . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Yo u r - y o u r e v i d e n c e e a r l ie r w a s t h a t y o u y o u r e c e iv e d n o ti fi c a t i o n o f t h e r e tr a c t io n i n A u g u s t 2 0 1 4 . MS SAMBO: I would need to check on the actual tender document. T h e c l o s in g d a t e o f th a t b i d . I - I d o n o t r e c a l l i t r ig h t n o w. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n c h e c k . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Ye s . S o r r y. I a m n o t r e f e r r i n g to th e d a te b y w h ic h b id s h a d t o b e s u b m i t te d … M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : B u t a t t h is p o i n t a b id h a d b e e n s u b m i t t e d , b u t t h e r e h a d n o t y e t b e e n a n y d e c is i o n . Page 16 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 M S S A M B O : I d o n o t - I d o n o t r e m e m b e r. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : O k a y. T h e - t h e - y o u r e v i d e n c e e a r l ie r w a s t h a t t h e b i d w a s a d v e r t is e d o n 3 F e b r u a r y - 2 3 Fe b r u a r y. T h a t is o n p a r a g r a p h 1 9 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t. M S S A M B O : Ye s . Ye s a n d t h e c l o s in g … A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Yo u s e e t h a t ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . I s e e i t a n d t h e c l o s in g d a te w a s in i ti a l ly 5 M a r c h , but was then extended to 30 March as a closing date. Ye s , b u t th e f o r m a l c o m m u n ic a ti o n t h a t t h e b i d w a s c a n c e l l e d w a s o n ly r e c e iv e d … 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W e c a n g o t o p a g e 9 … MS SAMBO: In - in August. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : P a g e 9 2 fo r t h a t . MS SAMBO: Ye s . I n - in A u g u s t. T h a t is t h e d a te t h a t I r e f e r r e d t o e a r l ie r o n w h i c h is … A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : P a g e 9 2 a n d if y o u - i f y o u t h e n g o b a c k to 9 1 . Yo u c a n s e e t h e - t h e d a te o f t h e e m a i l fr o m M s M e m e l a . M S S A M B O : I t w a s t h e 1 4 t h - 1 4 A u g u s t 2 0 1 4 . Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u a n d t h e n y o u d e s c r i b e d a f o ll o w u p m e e ti n g w i t h M r Zw a n e t a k i n g p l a c e i n - i n J u n e 2 0 1 4 . W h a t - w h a t 20 w a s t h e p u r p o s e o f th a t m e e ti n g ? M S S A M B O : D u r in g t h e f ir s t m e e t i n g a t P ig a l l e A A R i n tr o d u c e d o n e o f t h e ir s u b s id i a r i e s c a ll e d Ar i m a r w h i c h is a c o m p a n y b a s e d i n L o n d o n a n d t h a t c o m p a n y - t h e y h a d r e c e n t ly b o u g h t t h a t c o m p a n y a n d th a t c o m p a n y w h a t th e y d o . T h e y h a v e g o t a s o ft w a r e th a t th e y u s e t o a s s is t a ir li n e s to b u y th e ir p a r ts a n d c o m p o n e n ts i n a m o s t e c o n o m ic a l Page 17 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 w a y a n d a ls o a s s is ti n g a ir li n e s t o u t il is e th e ir w a r r a n t ie s , b e c a u s e w h e n a ir li n e s d o n o t u s e t h e ir w a r r a n t ie s f o r i n s t a n c e a n e n g i n e breakdown. I t is s t il l u n d e r w a r r a n ty, b u t i n s t e a d o f u s i n g th e w a r r a n ty. T h e y p u r c h a s e a n e w e n g i n e o r t h e y l e a s e a n o t h e r o n e . I t i s a n e x tr a c o s t a n d t h a t o p p o r t u n i ty c a ll s i tt i n g o n a w a r r a n ty is n o t u t il is e d . S o A A R m a r k e t e d t h a t p r o d u c t a s o n e o f th e w a y s t h e y c o u l d a s s is t S A A Te c h n i c a l to s a v e c o s t s a n d t h e w a y i t w a s i n tr o d u c e d to S A A Te c h n i c a l . I t w a s i n s u c h a w a y t h a t it w o u l d n o t n e e d a b i d d i n g p r o c e s s , 10 b u t A A R w o u l d c o m e i n w i th A r i m a r. Te c h n i c a l . See the gaps. D o a f u ll a n a ly s is o f S A A Then show them how much they can save fr o m th e p r o g r a m a n d o n ly c h a r g e a p e r c e n ta g e o f t h e s a v i n g s . So A r i m a r ’s r e p r e s e n t a ti v e n e e d e d t o c o m e d o w n fr o m L o n d o n t o c o m e a n d g iv e t h is f u l l p r e s e n ta t io n to t h e li n e m a n a g e r s . S o t h a t t h e l i n e m a n a g e r s w o u l d b e i n li n e o f w h a t k i n d o f in f o r m a ti o n i s r e q u e s te d t o b e in p u tt e d o n t h e s p r e a d s h e e t . S o th a t a f u ll a n a ly s i s c o u ld b e d o n e . S o th a t i s th e fo ll o w u p m e e ti n g th a t t o o k p l a c e a t S A AT. 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d d o y o u r e m e m b e r w h a t th e o u tc o m e o f t h a t m e e ti n g w a s ? MS SAMBO: A t t h a t m e e t in g M r Z w a n e d id g i v e A A R a n d A r i m a r a n d S R S a g o a h e a d to c o n d u c t t h e a n a ly s is . A s p r e a d s h e e t w a s s e n t t o m e w h ic h I t h e n s e n t t o S A A Te c h n i c a l a s k in g f o r i n fo r m a t i o n , b u t u n f o r t u n a t e ly w e d i d n o t g e t a v e r y g o o d r e s p o n s e b a c k fr o m t h e Page 18 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 r e s p o n s i b l e l in e m a n a g e r s . S o th a t e x e r c i s e w a s n u l l a n d v o i d . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Yo u t h e n d e a l a t - a t p a r a g r a p h 3 3 a n d o n w a r d s w i t h a n a p p r o a c h y o u m a d e to M s M e m e la i n o r d e r to i n t r o d u c e S R S a s a n i n d e p e n d e n t c o m p a n y. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l - w e l l - le t u s t r y a n d l e t h e r te ll t h e e v e n t s a s t h e y u n fo l d e d Mr M b ik iw a . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C e r t a i n ly C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . L e t h i m - l e t h e r t e l l t h e e v e n ts a s t h e y u n f o l d e d . W h a t c a m e n e x t? A f t e r th a t m e e ti n g w h a t h a p p e n e d a n d s o o n a n d i f 10 s h e c a n n o t r e m e m b e r s h e c a n r e fr e s h h e r m e m o r y, b u t tr y a n d le t h e r b e t h e o n e w h o t e ll s - w h o t e l ls m e w h a t c a m e n e x t - w h a t c a m e n e x t? O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C e r t a i n l y C h a i r. Ms S a m b o , w h a t - w h a t h a p p e n e d a f t e r t h e - t h e s e c o n d m e e ti n g w it h M r Z w a n e ? M S S A M B O : P o s t t h e s e c o n d m e e ti n g w i t h Mr Z w a n e I b e l ie v e d t h a t I h a v e p r o v e n t o A A R t h a t t h e o p p o r t u n i ty in d e e d e x i s t s a t S A A Te c h n i c a l . I h a d a l r e a d y d o n e th e in t r o d u c t io n t o t h e C E O a s t h e y h a d r e q u e s t e d a n d w e w e r e a l r e a d y a l s o g iv e n a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o d o t h e Arimar audit. 20 S o t h e r e a f t e r I c a l le d C h e r y l - M s C h e r y l J a c k s o n - b a c k i n C h ic a g o a n d tr i e d t o n e g o t ia t e a g a i n f o r m y r e t a in e r f e e , b e c a u s e I t h o u g h t n o w t h e y c a n s e e th a t I a m a s e r i o u s b u s in e s s w o m a n a n d I h a v e a lr e a d y s t a r t e d d e l iv e r in g o n t h e p r o m is e s t h a t I h a v e m a d e a n d I m a d e t h a t c a l l t o Ms C h e r y l o n 1 5 J u ly 2 0 1 4 a s k in g th e m f o r a r e t a in e r, b u t u n fo r tu n a t e ly M s J a c k s o n r e s p o n d e d a g a in t o s a y a s a w o m a n o f Page 19 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 c o l o u r i n th e U n i t e d S t a t e s o f A m e r ic a s h e i s a lw a y s - s h e is a ls o fa c e d b y s i m il a r c h a ll e n g e s t h a t B l a c k w o m e n i n S o u th A fr ic a a r e f a c e d w i t h . W h e r e i f y o u a r e a B l a c k w o m a n i n a m a l e d o m i n a te d i n d u s tr y y o u a r e n o t ta k i n g s e r i o u s ly. To b e t a k e n s e r io u s ly y o u n e e d t o p e r f o r m 1 0 ti m e s m o r e t h a n y o u w o u l d t o b e a b le to h o l d a p o s i ti o n o f p o w e r a n d b e a b l e to m a k e d e c i s i o n s . S o s h e is s t r u g g l in g w it h t h a t a t A A R . S o i t w il l b e d i ffic u l t fo r h e r t o n e g o t ia t e a r e t a i n e r f e e f o r m e h e r e in S o u th A fr ic a a n d s h e r e q u e s t e d t h a t w e c o n ti n u e w it h th e v e r b a l a g r e e m e n t t h a t w e h a d i n t h e p a s t . T h a t I w il l o n ly g e t p a i d o n c e t h e 10 d e a l is o n t h e t a b l e . CHAIRPERSON: S o th e v e r b a l - w h a t w e r e t h e t e r m s o f t h e v e r b a l a g r e e m e n t t o w h ic h s h e w a s r e fe r r i n g ? M S S A M B O : T h a t w a s t h a t A m e r ic a n Fo r e i g n A g e n c y … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MS SAMBO: P o l ic y th a t she showed me that when American c o m p a n i e s d o b u s i n e s s e s - b u s i n e s s w i t h f o r e i g n c o m p a n ie s . T h e y c a n p a y u p to e i g h t p e r c e n t o f th e v a l u e o f t h e c o n tr a c t a s a c o m m i s s io n once the deal is concluded. CHAIRPERSON: So that - that - so you were supposed to ensure that 20 they got the deal? M S S A M B O : Ye s . S o … ( in t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is A A R ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . T h r o u g h t e n d e r i n g p r o c e s s . U p o n g e t t in g a s u c c e s s bid … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 20 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 M S S A M B O : T h e n w e w o u l d lo o k a t t h e v a l u e o f t h a t c o n tr a c t a n d t h e n I w il l o n l y b e p a i d u p t o e i g h t p e r c e n t . I t w a s n o t e v e n s p e c i f ic h o w much … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MS SAMBO: For SRS, but … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : T h e d o c u m e n t w a s s a y i n g u p to e i g h t p e r c e n t. C H A I R P E R S O N : M a x i m u m e i g h t p e r c e n t? M S S A M B O : Ye s . S o h e n c e I w o r k e d s o h a r d … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : O v e r t h e y e a r s t o tr y a n d g e t th is d e a l. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : S o t h a t I c a n u l t i m a t e ly … CHAIRPERSON: B u t in t e r m s o f t h a t v e r b a l a g r e e m e n t it s e e m s t h a t S R S a n d A A R w o u ld n o t b e p a r t n e r s . S R S w o u ld b e lik e a n a g e n t w h o w o u ld g e t a c o m m i s s io n fo r h e l p in g A A R to g e t t h e b i d - t o g e t t h e t e n d e r. MS SAMBO: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is my u n d e r s t a n d i n g c o r r e c t ? 20 MS SAMBO: No. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SAMBO: Th e - th e o n e p a r t i s c o r r e c t , b u t th e o t h e r c o m p o n e n t w o u ld b e S R S w a s g o i n g to b e t h e n t h e B E E p a r tn e r in t h e c o n tr a c t . S o - so … C H A I R P E R S O N : I s t h e p o s i t io n th a t i n r e g a r d t o c e r t a i n a s p e c t s S R - Page 21 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 SRS … M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: C o u l d b e t a k e n a s a n a g e n t, b u t in r e g a r d t o o th e r a s p e c ts o f t h e w o r k S R S w o u l d b e a B E E p a r tn e r f o r A A R ? MS SAMBO: Ye s . Yo u r e m e m b e r I m e n ti o n e d a t t h e b e g i n n i n g th a t p a r t o f m y r e s p o n s i b i li ty w a s t o d o m a r k e t r e s e a r c h f o r t h e m a n d m a k e s u r e th a t t h e y u n d e r s t a n d h o w b u s i n e s s i s d o n e i n S o u t h A fr ic a . So o n e o f t h o s e c o m p o n e n ts w a s t h e c o m p li a n c e w i th B la c k E c o n o m ic Empowerment. So when I went to AAR I marketed my company as 100 10 p e r c e n t Bl a c k f e m a l e o w n e d c o m p a n y t h a t t h r o u g h a b i d d i n g p r o c e s s t h e r e is a lr e a d y a n a d v a n ta g e in te r ms o f g e tt i n g p o in t s o n th e B l a c k E c o n o m ic E m p o w e r m e n t . S o f o r A I - f o r A A R n o t a g r e e i n g to p a y m e a r e ta i n e r. T h a t w a s th e n g o i n g to b e s u b s t i tu t e d b y a c o m m is s i o n w h e n t h e c o n tr a c t is c o n c l u d e d , b u t t h e n o n c e i t is c o n c l u d e d t h e n s t il l p a r t ic ip a t e i n t h a t c o n tr a c t n o w a s a B E E p a r tn e r t o A A R . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 20 T h a n k y o u a n d - a n d y o u r - y o u r r e ta in e r n o w h a v i n g - y o u r r e q u e s t f o r a r e ta in e r n o w h a v in g b e e n r e f u s e d . W h a t s t e p s d i d y o u t a k e a f t e r th a t ? MS SAMBO: I w a n te d t o m a k e a l iv i n g a n d I - I a ls o t h r o u g h m y e n g a g e m e n ts w it h S A AT i d e n t i fi e d a n o p p o r tu n it y o f s u p p l y i n g th r o u g h q u o t a t i o n s y s t e m a s I ( i n d is ti n c t ) to S A A Te c h n ic a l a n d m e t w i t h M s M e m e l a a n d n o w i n tr o d u c e d S R S Av i a ti o n a s a n i n d e p e n d e n t l o c a l Page 22 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 c o m p a n y th a t w a n te d to b e c o m e a s u p p l ie r to S A A Te c h n ic a l . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d - a n d a s a n in d e p e n d e n t c o m p a n y w h a t w o u ld S R S Av i a t i o n s u p p ly ? MS SAMBO: B u y a n d s e ll . We would procure the consumables - the a ir c r a f t p a r t s t h a t th e y w a n t . F in d a s u p p li e r. Q u o t e th e c l i e n t a n d u p o n s u c c e s s t h e n w e b u y a n d s u p p ly t h e c o m p o n e n t o r t h e c o m m o d i ty t o S A A Te c h n ic a l . T h e n w e i n v o ic e a n d g e t p a id in 3 0 d a y s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d y o u s a y y o u m e t w i t h M s M e m e l a . I a m - I a m i n t e r e s te d i n h o w y o u r r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h Ms M e m e l a d e v e l o p e d 10 o v e r ti m e , b u t a t - a t t h is p o in t i n ti m e w h a t - w h a t w a s - w h a t w a s y o u r r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h h e r ? M S S A M B O : I t w a s - I h a v e k n o w n a s a M a n a g e r a t S A A Te c h n i c a l a n d I w a s r e g a r d e d a s a p o t e n ti a l s u p p li e r t o S A AT. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Can we move then to the second tender? H o w d i d th e s e c o n d - t h e s e c o n d t e n d e r d i ff e r f r o m t h e fir s t o n e ? M S S A M B O : T h e s e c o n d t e n d e r I d o n o t r e c a l l a n y d i ffe r e n c e , b u t i t f o r m e i t w a s t h e f ir s t te n d e r r e is s u e d . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : O k a y a n d d id y o u s u b m i t a b i d ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . I a ls o w o r k e d t o g e t h e r w i t h A A R i n w o r k in g o n th e 20 bid. T h is ti m e th e y w e r e m o r e c o m f o r t a b le w i t h w o r k in g o n t h e ir t e c h n ic a l p a r t o n th e ir o w n w h e r e v e r t h e y w e r e , b e c a u s e i t w a s c o m in g b a c k n o w th e s e c o n d t i m e a r o u n d . S o th e y w e r e f a m il ia r w i t h w h a t is r e q u ir e d a n d o n m y s i d e a s w e ll I c o m p il e d a l l t h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t w e r e r e q u ir e d a n d w e t h e n jo i n t ly s u b m i tt e d t h e b i d . W i th t h is o n e t h e y c o u r i e r e d t h e t e n d e r d o c u m e n t s tr a i g h t Page 23 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 fr o m t h e U S t o S A A Te c h n i c a l a n d I s u b m i t t e d m i n e i n t h e te n d e r b o x a t S A A Te c h n i c a l , b u t i t w a s t h e s a m e b id . C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s g e t t h e t i m e fr a m e s r i g h t . T h e t e n d e r w h e n i t w a s i s s u e d f o r th e fi r s t ti m e a n d w a s l a te r c a n c e ll e d o r w i th d r a w n . That was 2014 or 2013? M S S A M B O : T h e te n d e r w a s … CHAIRPERSON: When was that? M S S A M B O : A d v e r t is e d in 2 0 1 3 . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. 10 M S S A M B O : I t c lo s e d i n 2 0 1 3 … CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. MS SAMBO: B u t t h e r e w a s n o c o m m u n i c a ti o n fr o m S A AT f o r a lo n g ti m e . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. M S S A M B O : Til l i n 2 0 1 4 . I s e n t a n e m a il a s k i n g f o r f e e d b a c k . Th a t is w h e n I r e c e iv e d t h a t fe e d b a c k f r o m M s N o m s a M e m e la fr o m S A AT i n 2014. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n i t w a s r e is s u e d . W h e n w a s t h a t? M S S A M B O : I t w a s r e is s u e d o n 2 9 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 4 . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d - a n d y o u - y o u d e s c r i b e d t h e p r o c e s s o f p u t ti n g t o g e t h e r t h e - t h e b i d a n d - a n d A A R b e i n g m o r e c o m f o r t a b l e w i t h t h e t e c h n ic a l s t u ff . H o w - h o w d i d th e - t h e t w o o f y o u w o r k t o g e th e r o n - o n c o m p i li n g t h e b i d ? MS SAMBO: W e h a d a te l e p h o n e c o n fe r e n c e . Page 24 of 180 W e h a d a te le c o n o n 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 v a r io u s d a y s t o d is c u s s t h e b id . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d - a n d d e s c r ib e f o r u s t h e - t h e t e l e p h o n e c a l l y o u r e c e i v e d f r o m M r Z w a n e a r o u n d th a t t i m e i n October/November 2014. M S S A M B O : O k a y. I n - a r o u n d t h e N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 4 I r e c e iv e d a p h o n e c a l l fr o m M r Z w a n e r e m in d m e o f t h e d is c u s s i o n w e h a d w h e n w e m e t a t h is o ff ic e w h e r e h e t o l d m e t h a t w h e n I w o r k w i th i n t e r n a t i o n a l c o m p a n i e s I n e e d t o b e v e r y c a r e fu l i n m a k in g s u r e t h a t th e r e a r e a g r e e m e n ts i n p l a c e a n d t h a t th e y d o n o t g o b e h i n d m y b a c k to w o r k 10 with other people and he made an example about an experience he had a t th a t ti m e . T h e n w h e n h e c a l l e d m e . H e a s k e d m e i f I a m a w a r e t h a t A A R is n o w c o m in g t o S A A Te c h n ic a l w i t h a n e w p e r s o n c a ll e d M r R a fi q u e B a g u s . I d o n o t k n o w h o w - if y o u - t h a t i s h o w y o u p r o n o u n c e t h e s u r n a m e a n d h e is n o w i n - h e h a s n o w b e e n i n tr o d u c e d t o h i m a s th e B E E p a r t n e r. S o I s a i d I - I d id n o t k n o w. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n y o u s p e l l t h a t s u r n a m e ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w a n t to h e l p t h e t r a n s c r i b e r s w i t h s p e ll in g ? MS SAMBO: Mr B a g u s . I d o n o t s e e i t o n m y f il e a n d I t h i n k i t is - I think … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l … ( in t e r v e n e s ) . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Yo u w i ll fi n d i t - y o u w il l f in d i t a t p a r a g r a p h 42. M S S A M B O : B - A- G - U - S . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : And - and tell us what you did after you r e c e i v e d th is p h o n e c a ll fr o m M r Z w a n e ? Page 25 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 MS SAMBO: I t h e n c o n ta c t e d Ms C h e r y l J a c k s o n t o f in d o u t w h y s h e c a m e to S o u t h A f r i c a a n d n e v e r i n fo r m e d m e th a t s h e is i n S o u t h A f r ic a a n d h e r in i ti a l r e s p o n s e w a s th a t t h e y tr i e d to c a l l m e a n d a ls o s e n t m e a n e m a i l . T h e n I s a i d I a m l o o k i n g a t m y p h o n e . Th e r e a r e n o m i s s e d c a l ls fr o m e i t h e r y o u r s e l f o r fr o m M r S h a h . I - c a n I ta lk t o y o u , b e c a u s e I n e e d t o u n d e r s ta n d w h o M r R a fi q u e B a g u s is a n d w h a t is t h e r e la ti o n s h i p . T h e n th a t is w h e n s h e i n v it e d m e t o c o m e a n d m e e t w i th h e r a t t h e I n te r c o n t in e n ta l H o t e l in S a n d t o n . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. L e t u s tr y a n d u n d e r s t a n d th is . Yo u g o t a c a ll fr o m M r M u s a Z w a n e … M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A n d i n t h a t c o n v e r s a t i o n th a t h e h a d w it h y o u h e w a r n e d y o u to b e c a r e f u l w h e n d e a l in g w i t h i n t e r n a t io n a l c o m p a n i e s o r c o m p a n i e s fr o m o th e r c o u n tr i e s . Is th a t r i g h t ? S h e - h e w a r n e d y o u o f s o m e t h i n g . W h a t d id h e w a r n y o u a b o u t? MS SAMBO: Ye s . W h e n I c a m e b a c k fr o m t h e U S i n 2 0 11 I i m m e d i a t e ly s t a r te d m a k in g c o n t a c t w i th S A A Te c h n ic a l . T h a t is w h e n I g o t t o k n o w th a t M s B o t h a is t h e PA t o M r Zw a n e a n d I r e q u e s t e d t o 20 h a v e m e e t in g s w i th M r Z w a n e a n d o n e m e e t in g w a s s u c c e s s f u l b e f o r e t h e P i g a ll e m e e ti n g . I m e t Mr Z w a n e i n h is o ffic e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t y o u a r e g o i n g b a c k … ( i n te r v e n e s ) . M S S A M B O : Ye s . I a m g o i n g b a c k s o th a t y o u c a n u n d e r s ta n d . S o r r y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o . A t t h i s s t a g e I ju s t w a n t y o u t o c o n f ir m w h a t y o u r Page 26 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s o f w h a t M r Z w a n e w a s a l e r ti n g y o u t o o r w a r n in g you about. MS SAMBO: He … CHAIRPERSON: Then we can move on. M S S A M B O : O k a y. H e w a s w a r n i n g m e … C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d if y o u - i f y o u … M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: T h i n k h e w a s n o t w a r n i n g y o u a b o u t a n y t h in g . Yo u c a n s a y n o . H e w a s n o t w a r n in g m e . T h i s i s w h a t t h e c a l l w a s a b o u t . I 10 ju s t w a n t u s to t a k e i t fr o m t h e r e . M S S A M B O : N o . T h e - th e c a l l d e fi n it e ly w a s a w a r n i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W h a t is - w h a t w a s h e w a r n i n g y o u a b o u t ? M S S A M B O : T h a t A A R i s - h a s i n t r o d u c e d a n e w B E E p a r tn e r t o t h e m at SAA. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A f t e r y o u h a d t o ld u s a b o u t - t o ld m e a b o u t t h a t c o n v e r s a ti o n . L a t e r o n y o u th e n s a i d y o u s p o k e t o M s J a c k s o n … M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A n d s h e - a n a r r a n g e m e n t w a s m a d e fo r a m e e t in g b e t w e e n th e t w o o f y o u . 20 M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h e a ir p o r t . Is th a t r i g h t a t th e h o t e l ? MS SAMBO: No. In Sandton. C H A I R P E R S O N : In S a n d t o n ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I h a d n o t h e a r d y o u t e l l m e - m a y b e I m is s e d i t. Page 27 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 T h a t h o w y o u g o t t o k n o w t h a t s h e w a s i n S o u th A f r ic a . Was she in S o u th A fr ic a w h e n M r Z w a n e c a l le d y o u ? MS SAMBO: Ye s . She was - they had just left S A AT. M s C h e r y l J a c k s o n , Mr S h a h a n d Mr R a fi q u e B a g u s h a d j u s t le f t S A A Te c h n i c a l fr o m a m e e ti n g w i th h i m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Is t h a t - is th a t w h a t Mr Z w a n e to l d y o u a s w e ll ? M S S A M B O : T h a t is w h a t M r Zw a n e t o l d m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . T h a t t h e y w e r e i n S o u t h A fr ic a . T h e y j u s t h a d a m e e ti n g a n d t h e n … 10 M S S A M B O : W i th S A A Te c h n ic a l … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S A M B O : W h e r e Mr R a f i q u e w a s n o w i n tr o d u c e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S S A M B O : To t h e m . CHAIRPERSON: Now - now I understand. O k a y. S o y o u s p o k e to M s J a c k s o n a n d s h e s a id l e t u s m e e t i n S a n d t o n ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. T h e n y o u c a n c o n t i n u e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S o t e l l u s a b o u t th a t m e e t i n g . 20 M S S A M B O : O k a y. I m e t w i t h M s J a c k s o n a n d M r S h a h a t t h e ir h o te l a n d I c o n fr o n te d th e m a b o u t M r R a fi q u e B a g u s a n d I r e q u e s t e d t h e m t o explain what was now happening. Then M s Jackson … (intervenes). CHAIRPERSON: A n d w h o w a s i n t h e m e e ti n g ? a n d w h o e ls e ? M S S A M B O : A n d Mr S h a h . Page 28 of 180 Yo u r s e l f , M s J a c k s o n 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. J u s t t h e th r e e o f y o u ? MS SAMBO: Just the three of us. CHAIRPERSON: Okay? MS SAMBO: A t t h a t m e e ti n g M s J a c k s o n n a r r a t e d a s t o r y t o m e t h a t s h e w a s i n L o n d o n a t s o m e p o in t a t th e i r - a t t h e ir l e g a l f ir m c a l l e d D e n t o n s fir m f o r s o m e th in g e l s e , b u t i n th e d i s c u s s io n t h a t s h e h a d w i t h t h e p e r s o n a t D e n to n - a t D e n t o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A t D e n to n s . I t h i n k i t is D e n t o n s . J a . MS SAMBO: 10 D e n t o n s . Ye s . A t D e n t o n s s h e i n d ic a t e d h e r f r u s t r a t io n in tr y in g t o p e n e tr a t e t h e S o u th A f r ic a n m a r k e t s p e c i fic a lly w i t h S o u t h A fr ic a n A ir w a y s Te c h n ic a l a n d t h e p e r s o n t h a t s h e s p o k e t o th e n s a i d . D o y o u k n o w th a t w e h a v e a b r a n c h - D e n to n s a s D e n t o n s ? D e n to n s w e h a v e g o t a b r a n c h in C a p e To w n . W e w ill i n tr o d u c e y o u to t h e o ffic e in C a p e To w n a n d s e e h o w t h e y c a n a s s i s t y o u i n p e n e tr a ti n g t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n m a r k e t . S o t h a t is h o w C h e r y l - M s C h e r y l J a c k s o n w a s t h e n i n tr o d u c e d t o a g e n tl e m a n c a l l e d M r N o o r K a p d i w h o w a s a - a p a r tn e r a t D e n t o n s fi r m a n d Mr Noor Kapdi th e n i n tr o d u c e d R a f iq u e - M r R a fi q u e B a g u s to Cheryl Jackson. 20 S o t h a t i s w h a t s h e t o l d m e . Th e n s h e f u r t h e r i n d i c a t e d th a t t h e y h a v e e n g a g e d w i th Mr R a fi q u e B a g u s a n d a s S A A - a s A A R t o o k a d e c is i o n th a t Mr B a g u s w a s b r i n g i n g to t h e ta b le a d i ff e r e n t s tr a t e g ic w a y o f a s s is t in g t h e m t o g e t t o p e n e tr a t e t h e m a r k e t i n S o u th A f r i c a a n d t h e y w e r e lo o k in g a t - I d o n o t r e m e m b e r i f t h e y h a d a lr e a d y s i g n e d a c o n s u l ta n c y a g r e e m e n t w i t h h i m o r th e y w e r e s t il l g o in g to s i g n a Page 29 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 c o n s u l t a n c y a g r e e m e n t w i t h h i m , b u t s h e i n d ic a te d t o m e t h a t M r B a g u s is n o t c o m in g i n a s a p a r tn e r t o A A R . I n f a c t Mr B a g u s w a s t o l d t h a t t h e B E E p a r tn e r i s S R S Av i a ti o n . H is w a s th e n t o - t o a s s i s t t h e m i n f o r m i n g a b r o a d b a s e d B l a c k E c o n o m ic E m p o w e r m e n t s tr a ta t h a t w i ll t h e n b e a b l e to a s s i s t t h e m t o p e n e tr a t e S A AT. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d d i d - d i d M s J a c k s o n s a y M r B a g u s w a s o r w h a t h is b a c k g r o u n d w a s ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . S h e d i d i n d ic a t e a t t h a t ti m e t h a t Mr B a g u s w a s t h e 10 C E O o f A l e x k o r M i n e a n d s h e w o u l d a r r a n g e a m e e ti n g b e tw e e n m y s e l f a n d M r B a g u s . Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : We - we are now at paragraph 40 of your a ffi d a v i t . C a n y o u ju s t t e l l u s w h a t - w h a t h a p p e n e d n e x t ? MS SAMBO: T h is i n tr o d u c ti o n t o Mr R a f iq u e B a g u s h a p p e n e d d u r i n g t h e ti m e th a t t h e s e c o n d b id w a s s t il l - w e w e r e w o r k i n g o n th e s e c o n d bid. So it was - it was between the advertisement and the closing date. S o i n b e t w e e n th e r e th a t i s w h e n t h e in tr o d u c ti o n h a p p e n e d . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u c a l l i t a s e c o n d b id f o r c o n v e n ie n c e , b u t i t w a s t h e fi r s t b id r e is s u e d a s y o u i n d ic a te d e a r l i e r o n . I s t h a t r i g h t ? 20 M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S S A M B O : O n m y a ff i d a v i t C h a ir w e h a v e r e fe r r e d t o i t a s t h e s e c o n d S A AT b id . O n p a g e 11 . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MS SAMBO: Of my - yes. Page 30 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 CHAIRPERSON: J a n o th a t ’s f in e , I j u s t w a n t to m a k e s u r e th a t w e a r e o n th e s a m e p a g e , w e d o n ’ t th i n k th e r e ’s a d i ffe r e n t b id , o k a y. MS SAMBO: Ye s , s o fr o m t h e n I r e c e iv e d a n e m a i l t h a t w a s s e n t in b y t h e Vi c e – b y Mr R o b e r t R e a g a n fr o m A A R a n d in t h a t e m a i l h e w a s n o w tr y i n g t o g e t th e p e r s p e c t iv e o r t o f o r m a l is e t h i s w o r k i n g r e la t io n s h ip n o w w i th M r R a fi q u e n o w a s a c o n s u l ta n t a n d S R S a s a B E E p a r tn e r i n t h e s u b m i s s io n o f t h i s t e n d e r a n d I t h in k – n o t th a t I th i n k , I a m s o r r y, p a r t o f M r R a fi q u e B a g u s ’ c o n s u l t a n c y w a s t o a d v i s e t h e m o n h o w t h e y s h o u l d p e n e tr a te I t h i n k th is m a r k e t , y e s . 10 CHAIRPERSON: S o t h is m e e ti n g t h a t y o u h a d w i th M s J a c k s o n a n d M r S h a h i n S a n d t o n d i d i t h a p p e n b e f o r e S R S a n d A A R s u b m i tt e d th e ir jo in t b i d to w h a t y o u c a ll a s e c o n d t e n d e r ? MS SAMBO: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: S o w h e n t h e s e c o n d t e n d e r, w h e n y o u s u b m i t t e d y o u r b i d to t h e s e c o n d t e n d e r, Mr B a g u s h a d s t a r t e d a d v i s i n g A A R ? MS SAMBO: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: W a s h e a d v is in g A A R , j u s t A A R , o r w a s h e a d v is in g both SRS and AAR as people who were working together? MS SAMBO: 20 H e w a s a d v is i n g ju s t A A R . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, a lr i g h t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n I g o to t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e y o u ’v e j u s t r e fe r r e d t o , i t’s a t p a g e 1 4 4 o f y o u r b u n d l e . MS SAMBO: Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : MS SAMBO: Is t h is t h e e m a il y o u w e r e r e f e r r in g t o ? Ye s a b s o lu t e l y. Page 31 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h a t is . . .[ i n te r v e n e s ] A n d t h a t is – I’ m s o r r y, t h e e m a il s h e w a s r e f e r r i n g t o t h a t s h e s a i d c a m e f r o m M r R o b e r t R e a g a n , is t h a t r i g h t ? MS SAMBO: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: J a , o k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d c a n I j u s t a s k y o u t o r e a d in t o th e r e c o r d t h e fir s t s e n te n c e a n d th e t h r e e b u ll e t p o i n ts ? MS SAMBO: “ A l l, C h e r y l, R a h o o l, J e n n i f e r a n d I s p o k e t o d a y w i th t h e 10 f o ll o w i n g fo lk s a b o u t A A R ’s p u r s u it o f s e v e r a l b u s in e s s o p p o r t u n i ti e s i n S o u t h A fr ic a , in c l u d i n g t h e r e c e n t ly is s u e d R F P f o r a ir c r a f t c o m p o n e n t s u p p o r t . • R a f iq u e B a g u s , a former DPE o ff i c ia l tu r n e d b u s i n e s s m a n w h o i s a c ti n g a s a s tr a t e g ic b u s i n e s s c o n s u l t a n t f o r A A R i n S o u th A fr ic a ; • S p o n g il e S a m b u , a S o u t h A fr ic a n b u s i n e s s w o m a n w h o w i ll b e o u r B E E p a r t n e r o n th e R F P ; a n d • N o o r G a b d i , a la w y e r w i th D e n to n s i n S o u t h A fr i c a w h o w e h a v e r e ta i n e d t o a s s i s t o u r b u s in e s s d e v e l o p m e n t e ffo r t s t h e r e . ” 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S o j u s t e x p la in h o w th e s e p a r ti e s w e r e going to be working together on a single bid submission? MS SA MBO: P o s t t h e i n tr o d u c t io n a t e l e p h o n ic i n t r o d u c ti o n b y Ms J a c k s o n t h e r e w a s a c o n f e r e n c e c a l l b e tw e e n M s C h e r y l J a c k s o n , m y s e l f , Mr G a b d i a n d Mr B a g u s d i s c u s s i n g t h e b i d . Page 32 of 180 In that telephone 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 c a l l M r B a g u s a n d M r G a b d i p r o p o s e d t h a t A A R p a r tn e r w i th D e n e l Av i a ti o n a s w e ll i n r e s p o n d i n g to th is b id b e c a u s e th e y h a v e a t e c h n ic a l e x p e r t is e i n th is m a r k e t . M y r e s p o n s e w a s I d o n ’ t t h in k t h a t w i ll b e r e l e v a n t lo o k in g a t t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts o f t h e b i d a n d w h a t I k n o w D e n e l o ffe r s a s p r o d u c ts a n d s e r v ic e s s o I s u g g e s t e d t h a t t h e r e is n o t e v e n e n o u g h ti m e to s t a r t c r e a t in g n e w r e l a t i o n s h i p s t o r e s p o n d to t h is b i d , a n d I a d v i s e d i n t h a t t e l e p h o n e c a ll th a t t h e s u b m is s i o n o f t h e b i d w h a t m a t t e r s th e r e is t h e p r ic e , m o r e t h a n i f th e y b r i n g i n t h e t e c h n i c a l e x p e r t is e I h a v e t h e B E E c o m p o n e n t w h i c h w e r e t h e k e y r e q u ir e m e n ts 10 o f t h e b i d , I d id n ’t s e e a r e a s o n w h y D e n e l w o u l d b e in t r o d u c e d i n t o t h is b id b e c a u s e t h e b id w a s a lr e a d y o u t a n d t h e r e w a s e n o u g h t i m e t o in t e r r o g a t e a t h ir d p a r ty in t o th is r e l a ti o n s h i p , s o t h e y – b y t h e ti m e w e e n d e d t h a t c a ll w e h a d m a d e a n a g r e e m e n t t h a t A A R a n d S R S Av i a ti o n w o u ld p r o c e e d a s p l a n n e d i n t h e s u b m is s i o n o f th e ir b i d . CHAIRPERSON: Did you understand how their idea would work of b r i n g i n g D e n e l i n to t h i s w h e n D e n e l is a S t a te e n t i ty ? MS SAMBO: No I did not. CHAIRPERSON: I don’t seem to understand how Denel would be b r o u g h t i n t o th e b i d . 20 MS SAMBO: Yo u a ls o d id n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d ? I did not, I did not understand. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : In t h a t e m a i l c a n I a s k y o u t o g o to n u m b e r 2 , w h e r e i t s a y s S ib o n g i le a d v i s e d th a t S R T w i ll b i d o n t h e R F P a t a lo s s . S o r r y, a r e y o u th e r e ? MS SAMBO: Where? Page 33 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : MS SAMBO: Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : MS SAMBO: I t is a t p a g e 1 4 4 . At number 2. Page 144, number 2, yes? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S ib o n g il e a d v is e d t h a t S R T w i ll b id o n t h e R F P a t a l o s s , s h e r e m i n d e d u s t h a t p r i c e w ill d ic t a te t h e R F P w i n n i n g b i d r e g a r d l e s s o f a n y p o l i tic a l o r o th e r c o n n e c ti o n s . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l w il l y o u s t a r t b y t e l li n g m e w h e t h e r S R T w a s a m is t a k e , i t w a s m e a n t t o b e S R S o r w h e t h e r S R T is s o m e t h i n g e ls e ? 10 MS SAMBO: SRT is another company that was based inside SAA Te c h n i c a l t h a t w a s – t h a t I a l s o w e n t to – a s p a r t o f m y m a r k e t r e s e a r c h I v i s i t e d t h e m t o u n d e r s ta n d w h a t t h e y d o a n d i f th e y a r e r e s p o n d in g to t h e b id a n d t h e g e n tl e m a n th a t I s p o k e t o , i f m y m e m o r y s e r v e s m e w e ll , w a s M r M o h a m e d , I s ta n d f o r c o r r e c t i o n , w i th t h e s u r n a m e a n d w e d is c u s s e d th e b id , a n d h e in d i c a t e d t h a t S R T d i d n ’ t h a v e t h e c a p a c i ty t h a t th e o t h e r b ig g e r p l a y e r s l ik e L u f th a n s a a n d A ir Fr a n c e a n d p e r h a p s A A R a s w e l l s o t h e y w o u l d b i d b u t t h e y k n o w t h e y w o u l d b i d a t a lo s s b e c a u s e t h e y d o n ’ t h a v e t h e f u l l r e s o u r c e s , s o fr o m t h a t d i s c u s s io n t h a t I h a d w i t h M r M o h a m e d I w a s th e n g i v i n g t h e m f e e d b a c k o f p a r t o f t h e 20 m a r k e t r e s e a r c h t h a t I h a v e d o n e t h a t o n e o f th e o t h e r b id d e r s is g o i n g t o b e S R T a n d t h e y h a v e i n d ic a te d t o m e t h a t t h e y w i ll b e b i d d in g a t a lo s s , a n d j a , t h a t ’s a l l . CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: Why would anybody bid at a loss, do you know? H e i n d ic a te d to m e th a t t h e y w o u ld n ’ t – t h e y d o n ’ t h a v e t h e k i n d o f c a p a c i ty t h a t a ir l in e s li k e A ir Fr a n c e , w h ic h w a s s u p p ly in g a t Page 34 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 t h a t ti m e , w o u l d h a v e , h e i n d ic a t e d t h a t w h e n – s h o u l d t h e y g e t t h e b id w h e n A ir Fr a n c e l e a v e t h e y a r e g o in g t o l e a v e w i t h e v e r y t h i n g th a t t h e y h a v e b r o u g h t i n t o S A A Te c h n i c a l a n d t h e y w i ll h a v e t o s t a r t a fr e s h s o i f t h e y n e e d t o b e a c o m p e t i tiv e b i d d e r i t – t h e y a r e g o i n g t o o p e r a t e o n t h e fir s t b i d a t a lo s s b e c a u s e t h e y h a v e t o c a p it a lis e t o g e t t h e b u s i n e s s o ff th e g r o u n d , t h a t ’s w h a t h e m e a n t , o r t h a t is w h a t I understood when he told me. CHAIRPERSON: I n o th e r w o r d s t h e y w o u l d h a v e a l o n g t e r m b e n e f it la t e r b u t n o t i m m e d i a te ly ? 10 MS SAMBO: Ye s , y e s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d i n t h a t s e n te n c e t h a t y o u r e a d i t is in d i c a t e d t h a t y o u a d v is e d t h a t p r ic e w o u l d d i c t a t e t h e w i n n i n g b i d r e g a r d le s s o f a n y p o li t ic a l o t h e r c o n n e c ti o n s . W h y d i d y o u th i n k i t n e c e s s a r y t o s a y t h a t p o l i tic a l o r o th e r c o n n e c t io n s w o u l d m a k e n o d i ff e r e n c e ? MS SAMBO: O k a y, M r R a f iq u e w a s in t r o d u c e d to m e a s s o m e b o d y w h o is p o li ti c a ll y c o n n e c t e d a n d th a t is w h a t h e w a s b r in g in g o n t h e t a b le , w h ic h I w a s n o t , a n d h e n c e C h e r y l s a i d t o m e I m u s t n o t w o r r y 20 a b o u t M r R a f i q u e B a g u s , h e is b r in g i n g a d i ff e r e n t s tr a t e g y c o n s u l ta n c y in t o th e w h o le r e la t io n s h ip a n d i n th e d is c u s s i o n o f h o w w e s h o u l d r e s p o n d t o t h e s e c o n d b id a s s ta t e d i n m y a ffi d a v i t , is th a t it c a m e v e r y c le a r t h a t M r R a f iq u e w a s p r o p o s in g t h a t A A R g e ts a l e tt e r o f s u p p o r t fr o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b li c E n t e r p r i s e s , S A A w a s s ti ll r e p o r ti n g t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b l ic E n te r p r is e s a t t h a t ti m e a n d w h e n h e w a s Page 35 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 in tr o d u c e d t o m e h e w a s i n tr o d u c e d a s s o m e b o d y w h o h a s w o r k e d w i t h t h e D P E i n t h e p a s t a s t h e a d v is o r o f th e f o r m e r m in is t e r A l e c Er w i n , s o t h a t w h o l e p o l i tic a l, I d o n ’ t k n o w i f I s h o u ld c a l l it c o n n e c t io n b u t i t is w h a t h e is b r i n g i n g i n a n d f o r m e a s a b u s i n e s s w o m a n I w a s s tr a ig h t fo r w a r d t o s a y e v e n i f y o u c a n h a v e th o s e p o l it ic a l c o n n e c ti o n s if y o u r p r i c e is o u t o f p l a c e y o u w il l n o t g e t th a t c o n tr a c t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. I see we are almost at quarter past eleven. CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s , a r e y o u a b o u t t o m o v e o n to s o m e t h in g e ls e ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : CHAIRPERSON: I a m a b o u t t o m o v e o n t o s o m e th i n g e l s e . O k a y, w e w i ll t a k e t h e a d jo u r n m e n t a n d w e w il l resume at half past eleven. We adjourn. REGISTRAR: A ll r is e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: Okay you may proceed… A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. M i s s S a m b o ju s t b e fo r e t h e t e a a d jo u r n m e n t y o u w e r e te ll in g u s a b o u t a n e - m a i l th a t M r R e a g a n 20 h a d s e n t s o r t o f d e s c r i b in g t h e p a r tn e r s h i p b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d S R S Av i a ti o n a n d A A R a n d M r B a g u s . C a n w e p ic k i t u p a t p a r a g r a p h 4 2 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t a n d c a n y o u te ll u s w h a t h a p p e n e d a f te r t h a t? M S S A M B O : C h a ir c a n I p l e a s e r e f e r t o m y n o t e s ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SAMBO: Thank you. Subsequent to that, on the 18th of November Page 36 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 2 0 1 4 , I m e t w i t h M r G a b d e fr o m D e n t o n s fir m . T h e m e e t in g w a s a r r a n g e d b y M is s J a c k s o n , a n d in o u r d is c u s s io n s w e ta lk e d a b o u t R a f iq u e , w h o R a fi q u e w a s a n d h e w a s tr y in g to m a k e m e a t e a s e i n u n d e r s t a n d in g th a t R a f iq u e is c o m i n g t o d e l iv e r o n a d i ffe r e n t r o l e t h a n I d o fo r A A R . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w h a t h a p p e n e d a f te r y o u r m e e t in g w i th Mr Gabde? MS SAMBO: P o s t t h a t m e e ti n g w i th M r G a b d e , a m e e ti n g w a s th e n s c h e d u l e d f o r m e t o m e e t M r B a g u s a n d t h e m e e t i n g w a s s c h e d u le d f o r 10 m e t o m e e t h i m a t h is o ff ic e s i n R o s e b a n k a t t h e A le x c o r o ff ic e s a n d t h a t i s w h e r e w e h a d o u r m e e ti n g . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w h a t w a s t h e p u r p o s e o f t h a t m e e t in g ? MS SAMBO: T h e p u r p o s e o f th e m e e t in g w a s f o r h i m i n p e r s o n n o w, t o o u tl i n e t o m e w h a t h i s r o l e w a s a t A A R a n d a ls o th a t h e h a s b e e n t o l d t h a t S R S a v i a ti o n is t h e B E E p a r t n e r f o r A A R . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d is t h a t w h a t w a s d i s c u s s e d a t t h e m e e ti n g ? MS SAMBO: T h a t is w h a t w e d i s c u s s e d a t th e m e e t i n g . CHAIRPERSON: 20 W h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t e x a c tly M r B a g u s w a s g o in g to d o a t a p a r ti c u l a r l e v e l in a d v is i n g [ i n t e r v e n e s ] MS SAMBO: W h a t? C H A I R P E R S O N : In A A R . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] . M S S A M B O : S o r r y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s g o i n g to b e h i s a d v ic e s a b o u t ? W a s i t j u s t b u s i n e s s o r w a s w h a t e x a c t ly w a s h e g o i n g t o a d v i s e o n t h a t S R S w a s Page 37 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 n o t a b l e t o a s s is t o n ? MS SAMBO: W h a t I r e m e m b e r v e r y w e ll is t h a t h e h a d a lr e a d y in d i c a t e d t o A A R t h a t p a r t n e r i n g w i t h S R S Av i a ti o n a l o n e i s n o t b r o a d e n o u g h a n d a t th a t t i m e it w a s d u r i n g th e t i m e t h a t t h e D T I h a d r e c e n tl y a n n o u n c e d t h a t w h e n t h e y s ta r t e d w it h t h e c o m p li a n c e o f B E E it w a s B l a c k E c o n o m ic E m p o w e r m e n t b u t t h e y h a d a d d e d a n o th e r e l e m e n t t h a t s a y s , n o w i t n e e d s to b e b r o a d , i t n e e d s to b e b r o a d b a s e d b l a c k e c o n o m ic e m p o w e r m e n t a n d R a fi q u e b e li e v e d th a t S R S a lo n e is n o t b r o a d e n o u g h fo r t h e r e l a t i o n s h ip w it h A A R . S o o n e o f t h e t a s k s t h a t I r e m e m b e r v e r y w e ll , h e t o l d m e h e 10 was going to do, is to create a broad-based black e c o n o m ic e m p o w e r m e n t s tr u c t u r e t h a t c a n w o r k w i th A A R . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w h a t w a s y o u r r e s p o n s e t o M r B a g u s i n t h is m e e ti n g w h e n h e d e s c r i b e d h i s r o l e ? MS SA MBO: I w a s a g r e e a b le t o th a t . I i n d i c a t e d I c a n n o t b lo c k a n y o n e i f t h e y w a n t t o a d d o th e r p a r t n e r s , e s p e c ia ll y g iv e n th a t w e d i d n ’ t h a v e t h e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e , w e d i d n ’ t h a v e a c o n tr a c t th a t w a s b i n d i n g b e tw e e n m e a n d A A R s o t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g m u c h I c o u l d s a y. 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d te ll u s w h a t h a p p e n e d a f t e r y o u r m e e ti n g w i th Mr. B a g u s ? MS SAMBO: P o s t t h a t m e e t i n g w i t h Mr. B a g u s I, s o r r y c a n I ju s t g o t h r o u g h a n d ju s t c h e c k my n o te s ? . . . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y o u c a n r e fr e s h y o u r m e m o r y . M S S A M B O : T h a n k y o u . O k a y. O n e o f t h e th i n g s th a t h a p p e n e d p o s t Page 38 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 m y in tr o d u c ti o n to M r G a b d e a n d Mr B a g u s is t h a t M r S h a h c a m e t o S o u th - A fr i c a t o m e a n d fi n a l is e t h e b id b e c a u s e t h e b id w a s d u e o n t h e 2 n d o f D e c e m b e r if I a m c o r r e c t a n d h e w a s d u e t o b e in S o u th - A fr ic a i n November 2014. S o I m e t w i th M r S h a h a s w e l l a t h is h o t e l a t t h e In t e r C o n ti n e n t a l i n S a n d t o n , w h e r e ; o k a y, d u r i n g th a t m e e ti n g h e t h e n o r g a n i s e d a n o t h e r t e a m in g a g r e e m e n t t h a t w e w e r e s u p p o s e d t o s i g n to s u b m i t t h e b id , s o … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: 10 Yo u s a y a n o th e r. W a s t h e r e o n e t h a t h a d a lr e a d y been signed before? M S S A M B O : Ye s . W h e n w e s u b m it t e d t h e in i ti a l b i d , t h e fir s t o n e , w e s ig n e d a t e a m in g a g r e e m e n t a n d w it h t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n o f t h e b i d [i n t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u n e e d e d t o s i g n a n o t h e r o n e ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S o , d o I u n d e r s t a n d c o r r e c t ly t h a t i t w a s a t e a m i n g a g r e e m e n t p e r b id . MS SAMBO: It was, yes indeed. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 20 A n d t e l l u s a b o u t th e p r o c e s s o f p r e p a r in g the bid with Mr Shah? MS SA MBO: Mr S h a h c a m e w i t h t h e t e c h n ic a l . H e w o r k e d o n th e t e c h n ic a l b id , I d id n ’ t w o r k o n t h e te c h n i c a l p a r t o f th e b i d . R e m e m b e r it w a s e - m a i le d t o t h e m . T h e y s ta r t e d w o r k in g o n i t. S o , t h e t e c h n ic a l b i d is , m o s t o f i t w a s d o n e b y t h e p e o p l e i n C h ic a g o . M r S h a h w a s p l a y i n g m o r e a r o l e o f a b u s i n e s s d e v e l o p m e n t Page 39 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 person fo r AAR to for stakeholder management, r e l a ti o n s h i p m a n a g e m e n t , a n d a ls o m a k in g s u r e t h a t t h e b id i s , is s u b m i t t e d o n ti m e ; t h a t w e a l l w o r k o n w h a t w e r e q u ir e d t o w o r k o n a n d i t’s s u b m i t t e d o n t i m e . S o t h a t is w h a t w e d is c u s s e d . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d , a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d a ft e r y o u r p r e p a r e d t h e b i d s u b mi s s io n ? CHAIRPERSON: Maybe before that, you said Mr Shah was working on t h e t e c h n ic a l s i d e o f t h e [ i n t e r v e n e s ] MS SA MBO: 10 C o - o r d in a ti n g th a t t h e y, y e s , c o - o r d i n a t i n g t h e te c h n i c a l [i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: And SRS was working on what part? MS SAMBO: W i th t h e c o m p l ia n c e . T h e r e g u l a to r y c o m p l i a n c e d o c u m e n ts , a n d y o u r ta x c l e a r a n c e s , a n d , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. D i d y o u t h e n s u b m i t t h e b i d o n ti m e ? MS SA MBO: Ye s , t h a t’s th e b i d t h a t w a s c o u r i e r e d fr o m C h ic a g o a n d S R S s u b m i t te d o u r p o r ti o n a t th e t e n d e r b o x a t S A A Te c h n ic a l . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , a n d o n c e a g a i n s t ill , S R S a n d A A R s u b m i t ti n g t h e b i d j o i n tl y [ i n t e r v e n e s ] M S S A M B O : Ye s . 20 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A lr i g h t . B u t b e f o r e t h e s u b m is s i o n o f t h e b id w a s t h e r e a n y o th e r i m p o r t a n t t h in g th a t h a p p e n e d ? M S S A M B O : I w o u ld n e e d t o r e m i n d m y s e lf , le t ’s s e e . Ye s . A c c o r d i n g t o m y a ffi d a v i t o n p a r a g r a p h 5 1 I w a s i n f o r m e d b y M i s s J a c k s o n t h a t M r B a g u s h a d o r g a n i s e d a m e e ti n g b e t w e e n ; o r g a n is e d a m e e t i n g f o r A A R t o m e e t t h e D e p u ty M i n i s te r o f Fi n a n c e i n C a p e To w n . Page 40 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 S o , s o m a n y t h i n g s h a p p e n e d d u r i n g th e s e c o n d b i d . The S t a te P r e s i d e n t m o v e d th e r e p o r ti n g li n e o f S A A f r o m D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b l ic E n te r p r is e s to D e p a r t m e n t o f F i n a n c e . S o , s o t h e n Mr B a g u s o r g a n i s e d t h a t A A R n o w m e e ts th e D e p u ty Mi n is te r o f Fi n a n c e i n C a p e To w n . T h i s is w h a t S h a r o n m e n t io n e d t o m e . I d o n ’ t k n o w i f th e m e e ti n g t o o k p l a c e o r n o t. CHAIRPERSON: D i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d w h a t , d id s h e s a y w h a t t h e p u r p o s e o f t h a t m e e ti n g w a s g o i n g t o b e ? 10 M S S A M B O : To in tr o d u c e A R [i n t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e D e p u ty M i n is t e r ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W h o w a s t h e D e p u ty M i n i s t e r a t t h e t i m e ? M S S A M B O : I t w a s D e p u ty M i n i s t e r M c i b i s i J o n a s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Mr J o n a s h a s s u b m i tt e d a s t a te m e n t i n r e s p o n s e t o h a v i n g r e c e i v e d a R u l e 3 3 n o t ic e . I w o u l d li k e t o t a k e y o u ju s t t o th e r e l e v a n t p a r a g r a p h s o f th a t a n d to a s k f o r y o u r c o m m e n t o n w h a t h e h a s s a i d i n r e p ly. If I c o u l d a s k y o u t o tu r n t o p a g e 5 4 6 . 20 M S S A M B O : Ye s , I a m . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : paragraph 13. Ar e y o u th e r e ? O k a y. I f w e c a n s ta r t a t Th e r e , M r J o n a s h a s a d d r e s s e d o th e r m a t t e r s i n h is a ffi d a v i t w h ic h w e w i ll r e tu r n t o l a te r. M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : B u t f o r p r e s e n t p u r p o s e s i f w e c o u l d s ta r t a t Page 41 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 paragraph 13, and he says “As regards, the a l le g e d m e e t in g w it h AAR m e n ti o n e d i n p a r a g r a p h 5 1 o f h e r s t a te m e n t ” . T h a t is y o u r s ta t e m e n t. M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : “ I r e c a ll b e i n g in v i t e d to a d i n n e r b y M r B a g u s in C a p e To w n . w o u ld 10 M r B a g u s t o l d m e th a t t h e d i n n e r b e w it h a US based e n ti ty w h ic h was in t e r e s te d i n in v e s t i n g in S o u t h - A f r i c a . I a t t e n d e d t h is d i n n e r f o r a s h o r t p e r i o d o f ti m e . M is s J a c k s o n was introduced to me and provided me w i th b a c k g r o u n d o n A A R a n d e x p r e s s e d it s d e s ir e t o in v e s t in S o u th - A fr i c a . She provided me w i th in f o r m a ti o n a b o u t t h e c a p a b il i ti e s o f A A R w h ic h seemed impressive at face value and it appeared t h a t A A R m a y b e a b l e to a s s is t S A A a n d a ls o t h e potential in v e s t m e n t in S o u t h - A fr ic a or c o l l a b o r a ti o n w it h S A A i n A f r i c a w o u ld b e b e n e fic i a l 20 t o t h e S o u th A fr ic a n e c o n o m y m o r e b r o a d ly. I t o l d h e r th a t I w a s n o t in v o lv e d i n t h e m a n a g e m e n t o f S A A a n d th a t s h e s h o u l d s p e a k t o th e r e l e v a n t m a n a g e m e n t o f S A A i n o r d e r t o f in d o u t a b o u t t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p o l ic ie s w h ic h a r e f o ll o w e d b y S A A a b o u t o p p o r t u n i ti e s f o r c o l l a b o r a ti o n w it h S A A . ” Page 42 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 He then says: “ T h i s m e e ti n g t o o k p l a c e t h e e v e n in g b e fo r e t h e S t a te o f th e N a t i o n A d d r e s s in C a p e To w n . The f o ll o w i n g m o r n i n g , I c o i n c i d e n t ly m e t M is s D u d u M y e n i , w h o a t th a t s t a g e w a s th e c h a ir o f S A A . I t o l d M is s M y e n i a b o u t t h e m e e ti n g w h i c h I h a d w i t h M is s J a c k s o n a n d t h a t A A R a p p e a r e d t o h a v e meaningful c a p a b i li t ie s of AAR and maybe in t e r e s te d in i n v e s ti n g i n to i n v e s t m e n t i n S o u t h A fr ic a . H o w e v e r, I a ls o to l d h e r th a t I h a d s a i d th a t 10 if A A R w is h e d to d o w o r k w i th S A A i t s h o u l d s p e a k t o th e r e le v a n t m a n a g e m e n t o f S A A d i r e c tl y. She in d i c a t e d th a t s h e w o u l d b e i n t e r e s te d in m e e t in g M is s J a c k s o n a n d I a c c o r d i n g ly p u t th e m in t o u c h w i t h e a c h o t h e r. ” Paragraph 15 “ To t h e b e s t o f m y r e c o l le c ti o n t h a t w a s t h e e n d o f m y i n v o l v e m e n t i n th is m a t t e r. ” M is s S a m b o d o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t o n t h a t ? 20 M S S A M B O : N o . I w a s n o t p a r ty t o t h is m e e t in g a n d I w a s n o t p r iv y t o it . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : So, you have no reason to doubt what Mr Jonas has said? MS SAMBO: No. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S o , w e h a v e j u s t d e a l t w i t h t h e b i d , y o u r b i d Page 43 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 s u b m is s io n , t h e b i d p r e p a r a ti o n , t h e b i d s u b m is s io n , a n d t h is m e e ti n g w h ic h to o k p l a c e i n C a p e To w n . W h a t h a p p e n e d t h e r e a f t e r ? C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e a b o u t i n t h e . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n th e a ffi d a v i t w e a r e a t P a r a g r a p h 5 2 . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. MS SA MBO: O k a y, t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f 2 0 1 4 a n d 2 0 1 5 S R S Av ia t i o n w a s n o t a c t iv e in th e a c tiv i ti e s o f A A R a t S A AT. T h e m e e t i n g s t h a t th e y w e r e h a v i n g w e r e p r e d o m in a n tl y w it h M r B a g u s s o w e w e r e n o t a c ti v e , s o I d o n ’ t r e a ll y k n o w w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g d u r i n g t h a t p e r i o d . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat what period that was? M S S A M B O : T h e e n d o f 2 0 1 4 a n d A p r il 2 0 1 5 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Yo u d i d n ’ t h a v e m u c h in t e r a c ti o n a s S R S t h a n with AAR. Is that what you are saying? M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: B u t y o u d o k n o w t h a t t h e y w e r e h a v in g ; A A R w a s h a v i n g a l o t o f in t e r a c ti o n w i th M r B a g u s . MS SA MBO: Ye s . T h e r e is a n e - m a i l t h a t M r B a g u s s e n t t o m e , in c l u d i n g o t h e r C o n s o r t iu m m e m b e r s w h e r e h e i n d i c a t e d th a t h e h a s h a d m e e t in g s a b o u t fi v e ti m e s , o r t h r e e ti m e s , o r m a n y ti m e s w i t h A A R , 20 w e w ill r e f e r to … [ i n te r v e n e s ] A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W e c a n g o t o t h a t e - m a il . I t is a t P a g e 1 6 3 . M S S A M B O : W o u ld y o u l ik e m e t o r e a d o r g iv e a c o n t e x t? CHAIRPERSON: W e ll , is th e r e a n y t h i n g p a r ti c u l a r l y i m p o r t a n t in th e c o n te n ts o f t h e e - m a il o th e r th a n t h a t h e m e n t io n s t h a t h e w a s h a v i n g a n u m b e r o f m e e t i n g s w i th A A R , M r M b i k i w a ? Page 44 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir, t h e t h r u s t o f th e e - m a i l i s t h a t M r B a g u s h a d b e e n m e e ti n g w i t h A A R . Th e r e i s j u s t o n e a s p e c t i n t h e t h ir d f u ll p a r a g r a p h s t a r ti n g w it h : “ Ä t th e m e e t i n g ” . If you could just r e a d t h e f ir s t s e n te n c e o f t h a t i n t o th e r e c o r d . S t a r ti n g w i t h “ A t t h e m e e ti n g . ” M S S A M B O : R e a d s in t o th e r e c o r d . “ A t t h e m e e ti n g i n C h ic a g o la s t w e e k , A A R a n d D a v i d s p e c i f ic a l ly r e q u e s t e d t h a t B o n g a n i a t te n d t h e m e e ti n g w i th a d e le g a t i o n . ” 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d t h e n e x t s e n te n c e , s o r r y. M S S A M B O : R e a d s in t o th e r e c o r d . “ B o n g a n i w il l b e l e a d in g th e B E E C o n s o r t iu m . ” A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W h o is t h e B o n g a n i t h a t is b e in g r e fe r r e d to? M S S A M B O : P o s t t h e m e e t in g th a t I h a d w i t h Mr B a g u s a t A le x c o r, h e c o n fir m e d th a t h e w a s p u t t in g t o g e t h e r a b r o a d b a s e d b la c k e c o n o m ic e m p o w e r m e n t s tr u c tu r e , a n d in th a t s tr u c t u r e th a t is w h e r e I s a w th e n a m e a n d g o t to k n o w a b o u t M r B o n g a n i M o r e . I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e r e t h e s tr u c t u r e is o n m y fi l e . 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W e w il l g o th e r e i n a m o m e n t . M S S A M B O : O k a y. S o , Mr M o r e , I d i d n ’ t k n o w h i m . I s a w h i m o n t h e s tr u c t u r e , a n d I tr i e d t o g e t i n fo r m a ti o n a b o u t t h e d i ffe r e n t p e o p l e t h a t I s e e o n th e s tr u c t u r e . B u t I w a s p a r tic u l a r ly i n t e r e s te d i n B o n g a n i b e c a u s e I s a w B o n g a n i ta k i n g th e r o l e t h a t I h a v e b e e n p l a y in g a ll a l o n g w i t h A A R a s a le a d B E E p a r t n e r. Page 45 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 A n d t h i s e - m a il c l e a r l y in d ic a t e s th a t t h e y w e r e i n , R a fi q u e a n d t h e t e a m w e r e in v i t e d t o g o t o C h ic a g o a n d t h e y a p p o i n te d B o n g a n i a s a l e a d fo r t h e B E E C o n s o r ti u m . A n d i n m y q u e s t t o g e t th e i n fo a b o u t w h o B o n g a n i w a s , d u r i n g t h a t t i m e I h a d a lr e a d y k n o w n M i s s N o n ts a s a M e m e l a f o r q u i t e s o m e ti m e a n d w e w o u l d t a l k a b o u t m y r e l a t i o n s h i p with AAR; what is h a p p e n in g because now I believe we are a c q u a in t a n c e s ; w e c o u l d t a l k a b o u t m y r e la ti o n s h i p w i th A A R a n d s h e , and I mentioned Bongani and she came back to me saying that she has b e e n t o ld t h a t B o n g a n i is . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ] . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M o r e . MS SAMBO: M r M o r e , I a p o l o g i s e C h a ir. T h a t M r M o r e is r e l a te d to t h e D e p u ty M i n is t e r o f F i n a n c e , Mr M c ib is i J o n a s , a n d th e s h a r e s th a t h e i s h o l d i n g o n t h is b r o a d b a s e d b l a c k e c o n o m ic e m p o w e r m e n t s tr u c t u r e , h e is h o l d i n g th o s e s h a r e s o n b e h a l f o f t h e M i n is te r th a t is what I was told. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m e a n o n b e h a l f o f th e D e p u t y M i n is te r ? Yo u s a id M i n is t e r. M S S A M B O : O n b e h a l f o f t h e D e p u ty M i n i s t e r, I a p o lo g is e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 20 M is s S a m b o t h a t is t h e o t h e r a s p e c t o n w h ic h Mr J o n a s h a s f il e d a n a ff id a v i t . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: N o w j u s t t o c la r i fy, w h o w a s g i v i n g y o u t h is in f o r m a ti o n ? M is s M e m e l a ? M S S A M B O : M i s s M e m e la . Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And once again, who was she? MS SA MBO: M is s M e m e l a w a s t h e h e a d o f p r o c u r e m e n t a t S o u t h Page 46 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 A fr ic a n A ir w a y s Te c h n ic a l . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n I a s k y o u t o r e t u r n t o M r J o n a s ’s a ffi d a v i t a n d th a t ’s a t P a g e 5 4 4 I w o u l d li k e y o u t o g o to . C H A I R P E R S O N : D id M is s M e m e l a t e ll y o u w h e r e s h e w a s g e t t in g th is in f o r m a ti o n f r o m o r d id y o u n o t a s k ? M S S A M B O : I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r. I d i d n ’ t a s k . I d i d n ’ t g e t w h e r e s h e g o t it fr o m . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S o a t P a g e 5 4 4 , I f I c a n s t a r t a t P a r a g r a p h 5 o f M r J o n a s ’s a ff id a v i t , h e s a y s “In essence, as discussed f u r th e r b e lo w, she s u g g e s t s t h a t I h a d a n u n d is c l o s e d i n t e r e s t in o n e o f th e p r o p o s e d B E E C o n s o r t ia w h ic h w a s in v o lv e d in A A R . T h e r e i s n o t r u t h t o th is a l le g a ti o n w h a ts o e v e r. T h e r e is a ls o n o e v i d e n c e p r o v i d e d b y M is s S a m b o fo r t h is p r e p o s t e r o u s a l l e g a t io n o t h e r t h a n w h a t i s c o ll o q u i a l ly r e fe r r e d t o a s d o u b le h e a r s a y. ( I t i s p r e m is e d o n a s t a t e m e n t a l le g e d ly 20 m a d e b y M r M o r e to M s M e m e l a a n d i n a n y e v e n t Mr More denies ever making such a statement to M s M e m e l a g i v e n i t th e a l le g e d s t a t e m e n t i s f a ls e . ” I f I c a n t h e n a s k y o u to t u r n t o P a g e 5 4 6 a n d a t P a r a g r a p h 1 2 . Mr Jonas says “ I s tr e s s in th is r e g a r d th a t I h a v e n e v e r h e ld a n y Page 47 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 in t e r e s t w h a t s o e v e r i n a n y B E E C o n s o r t i u m w h ic h p a r t n e r e d w i th A A R e i t h e r i n m y o w n n a m e o r t h r o u g h M r B o n g a n i M o r e , f u r th e r m o r e I a m n o t r e l a t e d t o Mr M o r e . ” L a s tly i f w e c a n t u r n t o P a g e 5 5 0 , th is i s a s u p p o r t in g a ffi d a v i t fr o m Mr More which was p r o v id e d together with Mr J o n a s ’s . A n d at Paragraph 3 he says “ I n p a r ti c u l a r I h a v e d e n i e d I h a v e e v e r h e ld a n y s h a r e s i n a n y B E E C o n s o r t i u m w h ic h w a s in t e n d e d 10 t o p a r tn e r w i th A A R C o r p o r a ti o n “ o n b e h a l f ’ o f M r Jonas. I a ls o d e n y h a v i n g s u g g e s t e d to M is s Memela that I would have done so. I c o n fir m t h a t M r J o n a s h a d n o d i r e c t o r i n d ir e c t f i n a n c i a l o r o w n e r s h ip i n t e r e s t in th e p r o p o s e d c o n s o r ti u m o f w h ic h I f o r m e d p a r t . ” M is s S a m b o , d o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t i n r e s p o n s e t o t h a t? M S S A M B O : A s I h a v e m e n ti o n e d , I w a s i n fo r m e d b y M is s M e m e l a t h a t M r M o r e is h o l d i n g s h a r e s o r o n b e h a l f o f D e p u ty M i n i s te r M c i b is i J o n a s . I th e r e fo r e c a n n o t v o u c h o r d e n y o r a g r e e , b u t w h a t is c o m i n g 20 o u t o f th is s t a te m e n t is i t a l le g e s t h a t I s a i d M is s N o n c a s a h e a r d t h a t fr o m M r M o r e a n d it s n o w h e r e o n m y a ffi d a v it . I d id n o t s a y M i s s N o n c a s a w a s to ld b y M r M o r e th a t h e is h o ld in g s h a r e s o n b e h a l f o f t h e D e p u ty M i n is t e r. Th a t i s t h e c o r r e c ti o n I w o u l d li k e t o m a k e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W e h a v e a ls o r e c e iv e d a s ta t e m e n t f r o m M s M e m e l a w h ic h is i n s u p p o r t o f th e c r o s s - e x a m i n a t i o n a p p lic a ti o n . Page 48 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 M o s t o f t h a t w e w il l g e t t o i n d u e c o u r s e , b u t I w o u l d j u s t li k e t o t a k e you to Page 516. M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d P a r a g r a p h 1 2 w h e r e M is s M e m e l a s a y s “ T h e s a m e , M i s s S a m b o c l a i m s i n h e r a ff i d a v i t th a t I h a d c o n fir m e d t h a t I d i d n o t k n o w Mr M o r e b u t in t h e s a m e a ffi d a v it s h e a s s e r ts t h a t I in f o r me d h e r t h a t Mr M o r e w a s s t a n d i n g f o r Mr J o n a s . I fu r t h e r d e n y a n d r e fu t e th e a ll e g a t i o n a s m is r e p r e s e n ta t io n 10 o f f a c ts b y M is s S a m b o a s I d id n ’t k n o w M r M o r e to a n e x te n t t h a t I w o u l d h a v e k n o w n s u c h d e t a i ls about him.” S o , M is s M e m e l a d e n i e s h a v i n g to ld y o u . What is your comment in r e s p o n s e t o t h a t? MS SAMBO: M is s M e m e l a d i d t e l l m e th a t s h e h a s b e e n t o l d t h a t M r M o r e is h o l d i n g s h a r e s o n b e h a l f o f t h e M i n is t e r. I d i d n o t i n s i n u a t e a n y w h e r e i n my a ffi d a v it t h a t M is s M e m e l a k n o w s M r M o r e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u s o . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: 20 S o , w h a t y o u i n s i s t o n i s th a t M is s M e m e l a to l d y o u t h a t Mr M o r e w a s h o l d i n g c e r t a i n s h a r e s o n b e h a lf o f th e D e p u ty M i n is t e r o f F i n a n c e a t t h e t i m e [ i n t e r v e n e s ] M S S A M B O : Ye s CHAIRPERSON: W h a t y o u s a y, y o u n e v e r s a i d w a s t h a t s h e t o l d y o u t h a t s h e g o t t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n fr o m M r M o r e . MS SAMBO: Correct. Page 49 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I f w e c a n t h e n r e t u r n , M i s s S a m b o , t o y o u r a ffi d a v i t a n d p i c k i t u p a t P a r a g r a p h 5 3 . Yo u h a d j u s t t o l d u s th a t b e t w e e n t h e e n d o f 2 0 1 4 a n d A p r i l 2 0 1 5 y o u h a d h a d v e r y l i tt l e in v o lv e m e n t . C a n y o u t e l l u s w h a t t h e n h a p p e n e d in A p r il 2 0 1 5 ? MS SAMBO: I n 2 0 1 5 I w a s in f o r m e d a g a in b y M is s M e m e l a t h a t A A R h a s i n v i t e d S A AT r e p r e s e n t a t iv e s t o v is i t th e ir f a c il i ti e s i n th e U n i te d S t a te s a n d s h e in d ic a t e d t o m e t h a t t h e p e o p le w h o a r e i n v it e d o r th a t w o u ld b e g o in g t o v is i t A A R w a s h e r s e lf , t h e C E O M r Z w a n e , t h e 10 m e m b e r o f th e b o a r d D o c to r Ta m b i , t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d o f S A A t e c h n ic a l M is s Y a k h e K w i n a n a . T h o s e a r e t h e p e o p le t h a t w o u ld b e v i s i ti n g a n d t o r e p r e s e n t t h e C o n s o r ti a , t h e p e r s o n th a t w i ll b e r e p r e s e n ti n g th e c o n s o r ti a w a s M r B o n g a n i M o r e . CHAIRPERSON: Wa s i t M is s M e m e l a w h o w a s te ll in g y o u t h is in f o r m a ti o n ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: H a d A A R n o t t o l d y o u a n y th in g a b o u t t h i s tr i p t h a t w a s p la n n e d b y t h is ti m e ? M S S A M B O : N o , I c o n fr o n t e d A A R a f t e r w a r d s [i n t e r v e n e s ] 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e h e a r in g a b o u t i t fo r t h e f ir s t ti m e ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d s o , w h a t d i d y o u d o w h e n y o u w e r e to l d t h is in f o r m a t io n ? M S S A M B O : L ik e I n o r m a lly d o , I c a l le d M is s S h e r y l J a c k s o n b e c a u s e Page 50 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 s h e w a s th e p o i n t o f c o n ta c t b e t w e e n S R S a n d A A R . S o I m e n t i o n e d to h e r t h a t I h a v e m a n a g e d t o f in d o u t t h a t t h e r e is a p l a n n e d t r i p a n d I s e e t h a t I a m e x c l u d e d fr o m t h e tr ip a n d a c c o r d i n g to th e k n o w l e d g e t h a t I h a v e n o w i s t h a t t h e d e l e g a t io n w i ll b e v is i ti n g y o u r C h ic a g o o p e r a ti o n s b u t t h e y w i ll a l s o b e v is it i n g y o u r M ia m i o p e r a t io n s , w h i c h I h a v e n e v e r v i s i t e d b u t I h a v e v is i te d y o u r C h ic a g o o p e r a ti o n s t w ic e . S o , I s u g g e s t e d t o h e r t h a t I w o u l d li k e t o b e p a r t o f t h e d e l e g a ti o n th a t is c o m i n g to v i s i t t h e ir f a c i li t ie s . But Ms Jackson d e c l in e d m y r e q u e s t i n d i c a t in g t h a t th e y w il l h a v e a c h a ll e n g e w h e n 10 t h e y tr a n s p o r t t h e d e l e g a t io n b e tw e e n t h e f a c il i ti e s i n C h ic a g o a n d M i a m i b e c a u s e t h e y w i ll b e u s in g th e i r p r iv a te je t . So, I responded to Ms Jackson by saying that I do not need to b e i n t h e p r iv a t e j e t a n d I d o n o t n e e d t o b e a t t h e C h ic a g o f a c il i ti e s b e c a u s e I h a v e b e e n t h e r e . B u t I a m i n t e r e s te d i n k n o w i n g t h e M ia m i f a c i li t ie s s o I c a n g e t my s e l f o n a f li g h t fr o m J o h a n n e s b u r g t o M i a m i . I w i ll n o t b e b o t h e r i n g a n y o n e . B e p a r t o f th e m e e t i n g w h e n t h e y conclude the meeting in Miami. Then I can return back. And I was p r e p a r e d to fi n a n c e my tr i p a n d b u t u n fo r t u n a t e ly, s h e s ti ll i n s is te d t h a t I a m n o t r e q u ir e d t o b e t h e r e . S o , I d i d s ta n d d o w n . 20 CHAIRPERSON: W h a t d id s h e s a y - w h a t e x p l a n a t io n d i d s h e g iv e fo r t h e f a c t t h a t o n e , t h e y d i d n o t i n c lu d e y o u in t h i s d e l e g a t io n ? Tw o , t h e y d id n o t t e l l y o u a b o u t i t b e f o r e y o u h e a r d fr o m M s M e m e l a ? M S S A M B O : S h e d i d n o t r e s p o n d a b o u t w h y th e y d i d n o t t e l l m e b u t . . . ( in t e r v e n e s ) CHAIRPERSON: Did you ask her? Page 51 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 M S S A M B O : Ye s , I d id . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MS SAMBO: Ye s , I r e m e m b e r I d i d a s k b u t s h e d id n o t r e s p o n d w h y t h e y d id n o t te ll m e . A ll s h e m e n ti o n e d i s th a t a c c o r d i n g th e B r o a d B a s e B l a c k E c o n o m i c C o n s o r t iu m s tr u c t u r e th a t M r R a f iq p r o p o s e d t o A A R , S R S w a s n o w a c o m p o n e n t o r p a r t o f th e c o n s o r ti u m . S o , f o r th is tr i p t h e y h a v e a p p o i n t e d M r M o r e to b e a le a d f o r t h e B E E c o n s o r ti u m a n d h e n c e I w a s n o t r e q u ir e d t o b e t h e r e . S o , M r M o r e i n d ir e c tl y w a s g o i n g t o a ls o r e p r e s e n t m e b e c a u s e n o w a c c o r d i n g t o t h a t s tr u c t u r e , I 10 a m p a r t o f th e c o n s o r t i u m . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d d o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r t h a t d e l e g a ti o n went ahead? M S S A M B O : Ye s i n d e e d , t h e d e l e g a t i o n w e n t a h e a d . I b e c a m e f r i e n d s w i t h M s M e m e la o n Fa c e b o o k a n d M s M e m e l a w o u l d t h e n p o s t t h e a c ti v i ti e s i n C h i c a g o . I h a d v e s t e d in t e r e s t b e c a u s e A A R is - I r e g a r d e d A A R a s a b a b y t h a t I b r o u g h t i n to S o u th A fr ic a . S o , I w a n t e d t o k n o w e a c h a n d e v e r y t h i n g t h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g a n d M s M e m e l a h a p p e n e d to b e th e p e r s o n t h a t p r o v i d e d t h e i n fo r m a ti o n d ir e c t ly o r i n d ir e c t ly. 20 So, t h r o u g h F a c e b o o k b e c a u s e n o w I h a d a s e n s e o f w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g s o m y n a t u r a l i n s t in c t t o ld m e t h a t i t is t i m e to s t a r t g a t h e r i n g a n y in f o r m a ti o n th a t I c o m e a c r o s s t h a t h a s t o d e a l w i t h A A R b e c a u s e I h a v e v e s t e d i n te r e s t . CHAIRPERSON: B e f o r e t h a t d e l e g a t io n w e n t to C h i c a g o , d id t h o s e w h o w e r e p a r t o f th e B E E c o m p o n e n t- B E E p a r t n e r s f o r A A R h a v e a n y Page 52 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 d is c u s s io n s a b o u t e a c h o n e ’s r o l e a n d w h a t w o u l d h a p p e n a n d w h o w o u ld p l a y a l e a d i n g r o le a n d s o o n ? A n d w a s S R S i n v o lv e d i n a n y s u c h d is c u s s i o n s ? M S S A M B O : N o t to m y k n o w l e d g e . I w a s n o t p a r ty to a n y d i s c u s s io n s t h a t p l a n n e d f o r t h e tr ip . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : N o w y o u m e n t i o n e d th a t y o u l e a r n e d a b o u t t h e tr ip fr o m F a c e b o o k a n d y o u h a v e a t t a c h e d t o y o u r a ffi d a v it s o m e o f the 10 photographs that you downloaded of the d e l e g a t io n . Th e u n f o r t u n a t e ly t h e a tt a c h m e n ts t o y o u r a ffi d a v i t a r e v e r y u n c l e a r. C h a ir t h e y h a v e b e e n b lo w n u p i n t h e b u n d l e o f M r H u m a n w h o w i ll b e c o m in g t o m o r r o w. I f I c o u ld r e f e r y o u t o w h a t is p r o v is i o n a ll y D D 2 2 C . A n d i f I c o u l d b e g l e a v e t o h a n d a c o p y o f t h is t o t h e w i t n e s s b e c a u s e I d o n o t think she has it. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , I a m j u s t t h i n k i n g w h e t h e r y o u s h o u l d n o t h a v e m a d e c o p i e s o f w h a t is i n t h a t b u n d l e f o r m e a n d f o r h e r s o t h a t c o u l d b e p a r t o f th is o n e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d C h a ir, w e c a n a r r a n g e f o r th a t t o b e done. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : W e c a n d o t h a t? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : We certainly can arrange for that to be done. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o w i t m ig h t b e b e t t e r t h a t y o u d e a l w i t h t h a t a s p e c t m a y b e la t e r. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C e r t a i n ly C h a ir. Page 53 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 C H A I R P E R S O N : A f t e r lu n c h j a . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : J a . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W e w il l r e t u r n t o t h a t . M s S a m b o th e n t e l l u s w h a t h a p p e n e d a f te r t h e d e l e g a t io n w e n t to v is it t h e A A R f a c il i ti e s . MS SAMBO: What happened after? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Ye s . M S S A M B O : O h o k a y. O n t h e 3 0 t h o f A p r i l 2 0 1 5 M r B a g u s i n f o r m e d m e t h a t h e h a s b e e n o ffi c i a l ly a p p o i n t e d a s a c o n s u l t a n t f o r A A R a n d h e 10 in d i c a t e d to m e t h a t h e h a s h a d v a r i o u s tr ip s t o A A R a s w e l l to e n g a g e w i t h th e m i n t h e - a s p a r t o f h is r o le a s a c o n s u l ta n t f o r A A R . H e fu r t h e r in tr o d u c e d th e c o n s o r ti u m s tr u c t u r e .. . ( in t e r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is a f t e r th e d e l e g a ti o n h a d c o m e b a c k fr o m t h e US? M S S A M B O : S o r r y, th is i s b e fo r e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A r e w e i n t h e p e r i o d b e f o r e t h e d e l e g a t io n ? MS SAMBO: Before they went. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a t i s m y e r r o r, I a p o l o g is e . MS SAMBO: Oh. 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I f t h e r e a r e e v e n t s t h a t o c c u r r e d b e f o r e t h e d e l e g a ti o n a c t u a l ly w e n t b u t a f t e r y o u w e r e i n f o r m e d t h a t i t w a s g o i n g . M S S A M B O : O h o k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : P l e a s e d e a l w i t h t h o s e . MS SAMBO: O n e o f th e d is ti n c t th i n g s t h a t I r e m e m b e r is th a t M s M e m e l a r e q u e s t e d m e to a s s is t h e r w it h a v is a a p p l ic a t i o n b e c a u s e I Page 54 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 w a s - I k n e w v e r y w e ll w h a t t h e p r o c e s s w a s to a p p ly fo r a v is a t o th e U n i te d S t a t e s . S h e h a d n e v e r tr a v e ll e d t o t h e U n i te d S t a te s a t t h a t ti m e a n d a ls o s h e h a d t o a p p ly f o r a n e m e r g e n c y v is a b e c a u s e t h e ti m e t h a t s h e to l d m e th a t s h e n e e d e d to b e - s h e is g o i n g t o b e p a r t o f t h e d e l e g a ti o n a n d t h e d a t e th a t w a s a lr e a d y s e t fo r t h e tr a v e l , i t s u g g e s t e d t h a t s h e n e e d e d t o g e t a n e m e r g e n c y v is a . A n d a f e w w e e k s p r i o r t o h e r r e q u e s t w e h a d d is c u s s e d t h a t m y e m p l o y e e w a s g o in g t o g o t o t h e U S a s w e l l b u t f o r a d i ff e r e n t r e a s o n n o t a t A A R f o r o t h e r b u s i n e s s e s a n d w e m a n a g e d t o f a s t tr a c k a n d g e t 10 t h e v i s a s p e e d i ly. S o , s h e a s k e d m e t o a s s is t h e r in th a t p r o c e s s w h ic h I did. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W e s p o k e b r i e f ly e a r li e r a b o u t y o u r r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h M s M e m e l a . H o w w o u l d y o u d e s c r i b e t h a t r e la t i o n s h ip a t t h i s p o i n t w h e r e y o u a r e a r r a n g i n g h e r v is a f o r h e r ? MS SAMBO: O v e r a p e r i o d o f ti m e w o r k in g w i t h h e r, w e b e c a m e fr i e n d s a t le a s t t h a t i s w h a t I b e li e v e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d t e ll u s w h a t h a p p e n e d a f t e r t h a t . A f t e r y o u a s s i s t e d h e r w i t h h e r v is a a p p l ic a ti o n . M S S A M B O : T h e y th e n tr a v e ll e d to t h e U S A a n d th a t i s w h e n I s t a r t e d 20 f o ll o w i n g u p o n t h e a c t iv i ti e s b e c a u s e I w a n te d to k n o w w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g i n t h e U S . A n d t h a t i s w h e n M r B a g u s a l s o c o n f ir m e d t h a t h e is fu ll y a v e s t e d c o n s u lt a n t f o r A A R . C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d t h a t c o n f ir m a ti o n c o m e a f te r th e y h a d c o m e b a c k fr o m t h e U S ? Page 55 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 M S S A M B O : N o , i t w a s b e f o r e th e y le f t . S o , w h e n I w a n t e d t o b e p a r t o f th e d e l e g a t i o n t h a t w a s g o i n g to th e U S , I t h i n k i t w a s M a y. T h e tr i p w a s s c h e d u l e d to b e i n M a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Yo u d e a l w i t h t h a t a t p a r a g r a p h 6 5 . M S S A M B O : Ye s . S o y e s , t h e tr ip w a s s c h e d u le d t o b e o n t h e 8 t h o f M a y. S o w h e n I w a n t e d t o b e p a r t o f th e d e le g a t i o n , I w a s to ld t h a t I c a n n o t b e p a r t o f t h i s d e l e g a t io n b u t th e r e w il l b e a f o ll o w u p v is i t t o A A R i n J u n e . A n d R a f iq s e n t m e a n e m a il s u g g e s t in g th a t I p la n t o b e 10 p a r t o f t h e d e le g a ti o n t h a t w o u ld b e g o i n g i n J u n e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A lr i g h t . C a n w e t h e n p i c k i t u p a t p a r a g r a p h 6 0 a n d c a n y o u t e l l u s w h a t h a p p e n e d a f t e r y o u t o ld t h a t y o u w i ll n o t b e a b l e t o j o i n t h e d e l e g a ti o n ? MS SAMBO: O k a y. I r e c e i v e d a c a l l fr o m M s M e m e l a i n d ic a ti n g th a t M s K w i n a n a w o u ld li k e t o ta lk t o m e . S h e w o u l d l ik e to h a v e a d is c u s s io n w i t h m e a n d s h e a s k e d fo r m y p e r m is s i o n t o g iv e h e r m y c o n ta c t d e t a i ls b e c a u s e s h e w a n t e d t o m e e t w i th m e a t m y r e s i d e n c e . So, I agreed. I s a i d y o u c a n g iv e h e r my c o n t a c t d e ta ils a n d M s K w in a n a i n d e e d c o n ta c t e d m e . 20 A n d w e a r r a n g e d to m e e t a t m y r e s id e n c e . CHAIRPERSON: W h a t w a s h e r p o s i t io n i f a n y w i th S o u t h A fr ic a n Te c h n i c a l a t t h a t ti m e , M s K w i n a n a ? M S S A M B O : S h e w a s t h e c h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d . M S S A M B O : C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d o f S A A Te c h n i c a l . Page 56 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o , s h e c a m e t o t h e m e e ti n g ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: At your residence. MS SAMBO: At my residence, yes. CHAIRPERSON: And what happened? M S S A M B O : S h e c a m e t o m y r e s i d e n c e . S h e i n d ic a te d to m e th a t s h e w a s p la n n i n g t o r e s i g n a s th e c h a ir p e r s o n o f S A A Te c h n ic a l a n d s h e 10 w a s k e e n t o k n o w m o r e a b o u t m y r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h A A R a n d a t t h a t m e e ti n g s h e a ls o in d ic a te d t h a t w h e n s h e l e a v e s a s a c h a ir p e r s o n o f S A A Te c h n i c a l , s h e w a n ts to g e t h e r h a n d s o n o t h e r c o n tr a c t s a t S A A s u c h a s th e - th e r e w a s a c o n tr a c t f o r ty r e s a ir c r a ft ty r e s , a c o n tr a c t f o r lo g i s t ic s , I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h a t e l s e b e s id e s t h e c o m p o n e n t s . B u t t o m e s h e w a s v e r y c l e a r th a t s h e w a n t e d m e t o i n t r o d u c e h e r to M s C h e r y l e J a c k s o n , s h e w a n t e d t o h a v e a d i r e c t c o n t a c t w i t h Ms C h e r y l e J a c k s o n w h ic h I g l a d ly g a v e h e r t h e c o n t a c t d e t a i ls a n d t h e y s t a r te d t a lk in g d ir e c t ly. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W h a t d id y o u u n d e r s t a n d h e r t o m e a n w h e n 20 s h e s a i d s h e w a n t e d t o g e t h e r h a n d s o n t h o s e c o n tr a c ts ? M S S A M B O : I d o n o t k n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u a s k h e r, w h a t d o y o u m e a n ? MS SAMBO: I do not remember if I have asked her what she meant. I d o n o t k n o w w h a t s h e m e a n t . I t h i n k s h e c a n a n s w e r th a t o n e h e r s e l f . B u t s h e w a n t e d h e r h a n d s , i t i s w h a t s h e t o l d m e , o n th o s e c o n t r a c t s . Page 57 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 CHAIRPERSON: W e ll s h e a s k e d f o r a m e e ti n g , s h e c a m e t o y o u r r e s id e n c e a n d s h e w a n t e d M s J a c k s o n ’s c o n t a c t d e ta ils w h ic h y o u g a v e h e r. M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: One would have thought that at least you would want t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t t h e p u r p o s e w a s o r w h a t s h e w a s ta lk in g a b o u t b e c a u s e it l o o k s l ik e s h e w a n te d t h o s e c o n t a c t d e t a i ls s o t h a t s h e c o u l d a c h i e v e w h a t s h e w a s t a l k i n g a b o u t n a m e l y g e t t in g h e r h a n d s o n t h o s e c o n tr a c ts . 10 MS SAMBO: The meeting with Ms Kwinana was very brief. CHAIRPERSON: About how long? M S S A M B O : I t is s u c h a p i ty t h a t w e tr i e d t o g e t t h e ti m e a t w h ic h s h e c a m e i n a t t h e g a t e a n d th e t i m e t h a t s h e le f t b u t a s o f t o d a y w e h a v e n o t r e c e iv e d t h e in f o r m a t io n b e c a u s e t h e n th a t c o u l d p r o v e m y s t a te m e n t th a t th e m e e ti n g w a s v e r y b r ie f . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , d i d y o u s a y s h e c a m e t o t h e g a te ? M S S A M B O : Ye s , n o r m a l ly I . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : O r s h e g o t i n to t h e h o u s e a n d s h e h a d a m e e t i n g w i t h y o u o r d i d y o u b o th t a l k a t th e g a t e ? 20 MS SAMBO: No, she came into the gate. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MS SAMBO: D r o v e to m y r e s i d e n c e . S h e h a d a d r iv e r. She came in s i d e a l o n e . W e h a d a v e r y b r i e f m e e t in g w h e r e s h e i n d ic a t e d h e r in t e r e s t o n t h e c o m p o n e n ts t e n d e r a n d h e n c e , s h e w a n t e d to ta lk t o Page 58 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 Cheryle at AAR. A n d t h a t s h e w a s p l a n n in g to r e s i g n a n d s h e w a n ts h e r h a n d s - I w a s a b it . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : O n c e r t a in c o n tr a c ts . M S S A M B O : Ye s . I w a s a b i t u n c o m f o r t a b l e w i th th a t m e e t i n g b e c a u s e a p e r s o n o f m y c a p a c i ty a t t h a t t i m e i t w a s n o w r in g i n g w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g . A n d I d i d n o t p r o lo n g th e m e e ti n g . I d i d n o t w a n t t o k n o w t h e d e t a i ls o f w h a t d o e s s h e m e a n , s h e w a n ts h e r h a n d s o n th o s e c o n tr a c ts . I d i d n o t w a n t to r e a l ly e n t e r ta i n i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, h o w l o n g d o y o u t h in k t h e m e e t in g to o k ? 10 M S S A M B O : I t w a s l e s s th a n a n h o u r. CHAIRPERSON: Oh. M S S A M B O : I w o u ld s a y . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e 3 0 m in u t e s ? Yo u a r e n o t s u r e . M S S A M B O : I d o n o t k n o w s p e c i fi c . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , i t i s f i n e . B u t i t w a s a s h o r t m e e ti n g y o u s a y. M S S A M B O : I t w a s a s h o r t m e e t in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d a p a r t fr o m g iv i n g h e r t h e d e t a i ls o f A A R w a s s h e s u g g e s t in g t h a t y o u d o a n y t h in g e ls e t o a s s is t h e r to g e t h e r 20 h a n d s o n t h e s e c o n tr a c ts ? M S S A M B O : S h e d id a s k m e i f I k n o w a n y b o d y w h o is i n l o g is t ic s . A t t h a t t i m e I d id n o t k n o w a n y o n e t h a t I c o u ld t h i n k o f a n d I in d ic a t e d t o h e r t h a t I w o u l d t e l l h e r i f I k n o w o f s o m e b o d y o r I w o u l d te ll M s M e m e l a b e c a u s e th a t i s th e p e r s o n I e n g a g e w i t h i f t h e r e is a n y b o d y t h a t I c o u ld t h i n k o f t h a t is in lo g i s tic s . Page 59 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d M s S a m b o a r e y o u a b l e t o p la c e th is m e e ti n g i n t i m e a t a l l ? MS SAMBO: T h i s is o n e o f th e a r e a s C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t I s t r u g g l e t o p l a c e i t i n t i m e b e c a u s e t h e r e i s n o w r i tt e n d o c u m e n t th a t w il l r e m i n d m e o f t h e d a t e a t w h ic h t h is m e e t i n g t o o k p l a c e . I tr ie d v e r y h a r d t o g o b a c k i n ti m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s i t b e f o r e t h e o u tc o m e o f t h e b i d o f w h a t y o u c a l l the second the tender was announced? MS SAMBO: Was it before? 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s i t b e fo r e ? MS SA MBO: I t w a s - i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n b e t w e e n th e s e c o n d - th e a d v e r t is e m e n t o f t h e s e c o n d b id a n d b e fo r e th e t h i r d b i d w a s a d v e r t is e d . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y a n d d o e s t h a t h e lp a t a l l i n t e r m s - d o e s t h a t h e l p y o u a t a ll i n t e r m s o f m o n t h s ? And I am taking it that the year w o u ld h a v e b e e n 2 0 1 5 . M S S A M B O : Ye s , i t w a s 2 0 1 5 . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y e a r w o u ld b e 2 0 1 5 . M S S A M B O : Ye s . 20 CHAIRPERSON: A n d i n t e r m s o f m o n th s d o e s t h a t h e l p y o u a t a ll t o s a y it p r o b a b l y w o u l d h a v e b e e n a r o u n d w h ic h m o n th s ? M S S A M B O : U n fo r t u n a t e l y, n o t c h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t . O k a y, n o th a t is fi n e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Ms Sambo you say that the purpose of Ms K w in a n a c o m in g t o y o u r h o u s e w a s t o a s k y o u t o g i v e h e r d e t a ils t o Page 60 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 in tr o d u c e h e r t o M s J a c k s o n . D o e s t h a t s u g g e s t a t a l l t h a t it m a y b e b e f o r e Ms K w i n a n a w e n t o n a d e l e g a ti o n to m e e t A A R ? M S S A M B O : I t s u g g e s t t h a t b e c a u s e a t t h a t ti m e s h e d i d n o t k n o w M s J a c k s o n . S o , s h e w o u l d n o t h a v e m e t Ms J a c k s o n b y t h i s ti m e t h a t w e m e t . B e c a u s e y o u r e m e m b e r s h e w e n t o n th e d e le g a ti o n t o t h e U S s o s h e w o u l d n o t h a v e a s k e d m e f o r t h e c o n t a c t d e ta ils p o s t t h e tr i p . S o , I t h i n k b a s e d o n th a t w e c a n tr y a n d f i g u r e o u t w h e n t h is m e e t in g happened. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, c o n t i n u e . 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I f w e c a n t h e n p ic k i t u p a t p a r a g r a p h 6 1 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t . Can you tell us what happened t h e r e a f te r ? M S S A M B O : W it h in a f e w w e e k s o r a w e e k o r s o M s K w in a n a g a v e m e a c a ll a g a i n a s k i n g t o m e e t w i t h m e a n d s h e s u g g e s t e d t h a t w e m e e t a t t h e P r o t e a H o t e l in M i d r a n d w h ic h I a g r e e d t o . I w e n t t o P r o t e a H o t e l a n d I fo u n d h e r w i th D r Ta m b i , o n e o f t h e b o a r d m e m b e r s a t S A A Te c h n i c a l . A n d w h e n I g o t t o t h e m e e ti n g s h e i n d ic a t e d t h a t s h e w a n t e d t o in tr o d u c e m e t o p e o p le th a t s h e w o r k s w i t h a n d s h e in tr o d u c e d D r Ta m b i a s a n a v i a ti o n s p e c i a l is t w h o is p a r t o f t h e b o a r d 20 a t S A A Te c h n ic a l a n d a l s o s h e i n d ic a t e d t h a t h e is o r ig i n a lly fr o m S i e r r a L e o n e , I th i n k th a t is w h a t s h e i n d ic a t e d t o m e . A n d t h e n s h e g o t i n to th e c o n t i n u a ti o n o f t h e m e e t in g w e h a d a t m y h o u s e t h a t a s s h e is p l a n n i n g t o e x it S A A Te c h n ic a l , M r Ta m b i is t h e o n e w h o w i ll t a k e c a r e o f h e r in t e r e s t w h e n s h e is g o n e b e c a u s e h e w il l Page 61 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 r e m a in a s a b o a r d m e m b e r a t S A A Te c h n ic a l . A n d h e r i n te r e s t b e i n g a l l t h e c o n tr a c ts th a t s h e m e n ti o n e d s h e w a n t e d h e r h a n d s o n to m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w j u s t t o ti e th a t u p . A t t h a t s t a g e , a t t h e s t a g e o f t h is m e e ti n g a t t h e P r o t e a H o te l . M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: D i d y o u k n o w e x a c t ly w h ic h c o n tr a c ts s h e w a n t e d t o la y h e r h a n d s o n ? M S S A M B O : Ye s , s h e h a d a lr e a d y i n d i c a t e d t h e lo g is ti c s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 10 M S S A M B O : T h e ty r e s . CHAIRPERSON: Mm-hmm. M S S A M B O : A n d t h e c o m p o n e n ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t w a s i n r e s p e c t o f S A A Te c h n ic a l . M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o w p r io r t o h e r m e e t in g y o u a t y o u r r e s i d e n c e . M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d y o u h a d a n y i n te r a c t io n s w i t h h e r p r i o r t o t h a t? M S S A M B O : N o t a t a ll . C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h a t t h e f ir s t ti m e ? 20 M S S A M B O : T h a t w a s t h e f ir s t ti m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d o y o u k n o w h o w s h e g o t y o u r d e ta il s ? MS SA MBO: Ms M e m e l a c o n t a c t e d m e a s k in g if s h e c o u l d g iv e M s K w in a n a . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms K w i n a n a . Page 62 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 MS SAMBO: M y d e ta il s b e c a u s e s h e is a s k i n g f o r th a t f r o m M s Memela, yes. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MS SAMBO: So, I agreed. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o , w h e n s h e c a m e to s e e y o u t h a t w a s th e fi r s t ti m e y o u h a d a n i n te r a c t i o n w i t h h e r ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , a n d t h e n y o u h a d t h i s s e c o n d m e e t i n g . . . ( in t e r v e n e s ) 10 M S S A M B O : S e c o n d m e e t in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h e Pr o te a H o t e l . M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y o u w e r e s t il l t a l k i n g a b o u t t h a t o n e . M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h o w d id t h e d is c u s s i o n p r o c e e d a f te r s h e t o l d y o u w h a t D r Ta m b i ’s r o l e w o u l d b e a f t e r s h e h a d l e ft ? M S S A M B O : Ye s , t h e n s h e a ls o in tr o d u c e d m e t o M s M d l u l w a , M s K u k i M d lu l w a a s in Zu lu a s “ I h a s h i ” . A n d I w a s a s k i n g h e r w h a t is I h a s h i b e c a u s e a s a p e r s o n t h a t s p e a k s is i Z u lu a s w e l l , I k n o w I h a s h i to b e 20 s o m e t h i n g e ls e , t o b e a n a n i m a l . . . ( in t e r v e n e s ) CHAIRPERSON: Well just say what it is. M S S A M B O : To b e a h o r s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S A M B O : A n d s h e s a i d i n h e r w o r ld - s h e m a y n o t h a v e p u t i t i n th a t p a r t ic u l a r w o r d s t h a t I a m s a y i n g b u t , in h e r c o n te x t , . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) Page 63 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e p a r a p h r a s in g . M S S A M B O : Ye s , i n h e r c o n t e x t I h a s h i w a s a r u n n e r. A n d I s t il l p r o b e d f u r th e r t o u n d e r s ta n d w h a t is a r u n n e r a n d s h e s a i d a r u n n e r is a p e r s o n th a t is a g o i n b e t w e e n m a k i n g d e a ls f o r h e r. Ye s . A n d a t t h a t m e e ti n g s h e in d i c a t e d t o m e t h a t a s p a r t o f h e r i n te r e s t i n t h e c o m p o n e n ts te n d e r w h ic h i s w h a t- w h ic h is w h e r e I f e a tu r e i n is t h a t s h e w a n te d M s M d l u lw a to g o a n d n e g o t i a t e o n h e r b e h a lf t o A A R t h a t s h e w il l m a k e s u r e t h a t A A R g e ts th e c o n t r a c t . H o w e v e r, th e y n e e d t o p a y th e m - I w i ll s a y t h e m b e c a u s e l a te r o n s h e 10 q u a n ti fi e d w h o is t h e m , I w il l c o m e t o t h a t n o w. T h a t t h e y w a n t e d 1 0 0 m il li o n r a n d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t A A R g e t s t h e c o n tr a c t a n d t h e y w a n t th a t m o n e y f r o m A A R . S o M s M d l u lw a a s t h e I h a s h i t h e n s h e w il l r u n t o g o a n d n e g o ti a te a n d c o ll e c t th e m o n e y. CHAIRPERSON: N o w a t t h i s m e e t i n g ju s t te ll m e a l l th e p e o p l e w h o w e r e t h e r e . Yo u r s e l f , M s K w in a n a , D r Ta m b i , M s M d l u l w a . M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h e r e s o m e b o d y e ls e ? MS SAMBO: No. C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s j u s t . .. ( i n t e r v e n e s ) 20 M S S A M B O : I t w a s j u s t- y e s . CHAIRPERSON: The 4 or 5 of you? MS SAMBO: I t w a s ju s t u s b u t c a n I ju s t a ls o m a k e a d is c l a i m e r C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e p e o p le th a t I r e m e m b e r v e r y w e l l w e r e t h e r e is m y s e l f , D r Th a m b i a n d M s K w in a n a . Ms Kuki Mdlulwa, I do not r e m e m b e r v e r y w e l l th a t i f s h e w a s t h e r e i n p e r s o n o r w e d is c u s s e d h e r. Page 64 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 T h a t m e m o r y is fa il i n g m e . I d o n o t r e m e m b e r i f s h e w a s t h e r e in person. C H A I R P E R S O N : O r w h e t h e r M s K w in a n a j u s t ta lk e d a b o u t h e r. M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e i n t h e H o t e l w a s t h is m e e t in g h e ld ? M S S A M B O : T h e m e e t in g i t w a s i n a n o p e n p la c e . T h e r e i s a b a r o n t h e r ig h t- h a n d s id e a s y o u e n t e r. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e g r o u n d fl o o r ? M S S A M B O : O n th e g r o u n d f l o o r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S S A M B O : T h e r e is a b a r a r e a o r a l o u n g e a r e a a s y o u e n t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SAMBO: A n d a s y o u e n t e r t h a t H o t e l w e w e r e o n th e r i g h t- h a n d s id e b e h in d th e w a ll . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S S A M B O : Ye s , th a t i s w h e r e w e w e r e s i t ti n g . CHAIRPERSON: 20 O k a y. S o , c o n ti n u e w i t h t h e d i s c u s s io n a n d t e ll u s h o w t h e m e e ti n g e n d e d . M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : C o n ti n u e h o w th e d is c u s s io n c o n ti n u e d a n d t h e n u p t o where how it ended. MS SAMBO: T h a t is w h a t w e d is c u s s e d a n d I le f t t h e m th e r e b e i n g c o n fu s e d - f o r m e i t b e c a m e v e r y c le a r th a t a c o r r u p t a c t iv i t y i s s t a r t in g Page 65 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 here. I w a n t t o c o r r e c t s o m e t h i n g I s a i d o n m y a ff id a v i t w h e r e I in d i c a t e d - I d o n o t k n o w i f A d v o c a te w o u l d a s s is t m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S A M B O : W h e r e I s a i d i n m y a ff id a v i t , t h i s is w h e n I r e a l is e d t h a t w e a r e i n a c o r r u p t m o d e . A n d I w a n t to t a k e th e “ w e ” b e c a u s e I w a s n o t p a r t o f t h e “ w e ” . B e c a u s e t h e is s u e o f th e 1 0 0 m i ll io n a n d h a v i n g a r u n n e r, i t w a s c o m in g fr o m t h e o th e r s id e . I w a s r e c e iv in g f r o m t h i s s id e t h e e n d . A t t h a t ti m e , I w a s a ls o v e r y s h o c k e d t h a t a f i g u r e li k e 1 0 0 m i ll i o n is j u s t c a ll e d lik e t h a t. 10 T h a t is w h a t a c o m p a n y n e e d s t o p a y f o r t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e y g e t a t e n d e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t n o w w h a t – w h y d id y o u n e e d t o k n o w a l l o f th is ? D i d y o u a s k , w h y d o I n e e d t o – t o k n o w a l l o f t h is M s K w in a n a ? I a m n o t – I a m n o t in t e r e s t e d in a n y R 1 0 0 m i l li o n w h y d o y o u n e e d t o c a ll m e t o a m e e t i n g to d is c u s s t h i s ? I h a v e n o th in g t o s a y a b o u t i t. W h e r e d o I fi s s u r e in ? W h a t is r e q u i r e d o f m e ? MS SAMBO: A t th a t ti m e fo r m e I j u s t t h o u g h t th a t b e c a u s e I h a v e a l w a y s b e e n t h e B E E p a r tn e r f o r A A R a n d n o w s h e w a n t s to b e p a r t o f w h a t I s ta r t e d w i th A A R a n d h e n c e … C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t d id y o u a s k h e r ? 20 M S S A M B O : I d o n o t r e m e m b e r i f I a s k e d h e r C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : W h y s h e i s i n v o lv i n g m e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : B u t a ll I r e m e m b e r is t h a t s h e i s t h e o n e w h o e v e n s a i d fr o m t h e b e g i n n in g , S ib o n g i le y o u a r e n o t p a r t o f t h i s R 1 0 0 m i ll io n . Page 66 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 T h i s R 1 0 0 m il li o n is n e g o ti a t e d f o r m y s e l f a n d m y p e o p l e i n s i d e S A AT. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t w h a t s h e s a i d ? M S S A M B O : T h a t is w h a t s h e s a i d t o m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h a t m e e t in g ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . T h a t is w h a t s h e s a id . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . S o – s o s h e – s h e m e n ti o n e d t o y o u t h a t R 1 0 0 m il li o n w o u l d h a v e t o b e o b t a i n e d fr o m A A R ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u m u s t n o t t h i n k t h a t y o u a r e p a r t o f – y o u w i ll 10 g e t a n y th i n g o u t o f t h e R 1 0 0 m i ll io n . M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is h e r s e l f a n d o t h e r p e o p l e . M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : In s i d e S o u t h A f r ic a n – S A A Te c h n ic a l? M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A n d w h a t d i d y o u s a y t o a ll o f t h i s ? M S S A M B O : I h a d n o s a y C h a ir p e r s o n . I w a s j u s t b e i n g in f o r m e d . I ju s t r e c e i v e d t h e i n f o r m a t io n a n d I w a s j u s t s o s u r p r is e d th a t t h is is h o w t h in g s a r e d o n e . I t w a s t h e fir s t ti m e I w a s fa c e t o f a c e w i th s u c h 20 a r e q u ir e m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : E v e r s i n c e I s t a r te d m y b u s in e s s a s a n e n t r e p r e n e u r. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : S o f o r m e i t w a s c o n f u s in g . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 67 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 MS SAMBO: s u r p r is e d . I t w a s e x tr e m e l y c o n f u s i n g . It was – I was just so I w a s s o – I d o n o t k n o w t h e b i g E n g lis h w o r d s th a t I c a n use. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : To s a y [ A fr i c a n l a n g u a g e ] . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : Yo u k n o w. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : R 1 0 0 m il li o n . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . Ye s . S o h o w d i d t h e m e e ti n g e n d – e n d t h e n ? O r i s t h e r e s o m e t h i n g e ls e i m p o r ta n t t h a t w a s s a i d a t t h e m e e t in g t h a t y o u w a n t t o te ll m e a b o u t? MS SAMBO: Ye s . S o t h e o t h e r p e o p l e t h a t a r e p a r t o f t h is R 1 0 0 m il li o n s h e i n d ic a te d t h a t it w a s M r M u s a Z w a n e th e C E O o f S A A Te c h n i c a l a n d Ms M e m e l a a t P r o c u r e m e n t a t S A A Te c h n ic a l . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : S o t h e n I – a f te r t h a t I l e f t . CHAIRPERSON: Did she ask you to do anything or SRS to do anything t o e n s u r e t h a t t h i s R 1 0 0 m i ll io n th a t s h e w a n t e d w a s o b t a i n e d ? 20 MS SAMBO: No. CHAIRPERSON: No? M S S A M B O : I t w a s v e r y c l e a r th a t th e r u n n e r is M s [? ] N d l u l a . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : N o fr o m m y s e l f s h e j u s t w a n t e d C h e r y l ’s c o n t a c ts w h ic h I g a v e h e r. Page 68 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 CHAIRPERSON: B u t y o u h a d g i v e n h e r th e c o n t a c t d e t a i ls fo r M r J a c k s o n in … M S S A M B O : P r i o r. C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h e m e e t in g a t y o u r r e s id e n c e ? M S S A M B O : Ye s , y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s y o u s e e t h e q u e s ti o n t h a t a r is e s i s w h y d id s h e n e e d y o u t o k n o w a l l o f t h i s i n fo r m a ti o n i f s h e w a s n o t g o i n g to a s k y o u t o d o a n y t h i n g a n d if y o u a r e n o t g o i n g t o b e p a r t t o b e n e f i t i n a n y w a y o r to b e a s k e d to d o a n y t h i n g f o r t h e m ? 10 MS SAMBO: I was not asked to do anything. I w o u l d p le a d w i t h t h e C h a ir t h a t s h e c a n a n s w e r w h y s h e w a s t e l li n g m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S A M B O : M y te s ti m o n y is th a t t h a t is w h a t I w a s i n f o r m e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SAMBO: I was not asked to do anything. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S A M B O : B u t I w a s a n i n fo r m e d p a r ty. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S A M B O : Ye s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir I a m g r a t e fu l . M s S a m b o a r e y o u c e r t a i n t h a t th e f i g u r e o f R 1 0 0 m il li o n w a s m e n t io n e d a t th is m e e ti n g ? M S S A M B O : Th e f ig u r e o f R 1 0 0 m il li o n w a s m e n ti o n e d a t t h is m e e t i n g a n d i t w a s r e p e a te d a t a n o t h e r m e e t in g . Page 69 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d c a n I c l a r if y o n e o th e r t h i n g ? Ar e y o u c e r t a i n th a t M s K w i n a n a p h o n e d y o u to a s k – a s k f o r th is m e e ti n g a n d t h a t y o u d id n o t p h o n e h e r t o a s k f o r a m e e ti n g ? M S S A M B O : I w o u l d n o t h a v e a n y t h i n g to c a l l h e r f o r s o s h e c a ll e d m e t o t h e m e e ti n g a n d t h e c o n te x t o f t h e m e e ti n g w a s th e i n fo r m a ti o n s h e w a s g iv in g to m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e w h y I w a s a s k i n g y o u w h e t h e r s h e a s k e d y o u t o d o a n y t h i n g a t th a t m e e ti n g is t h a t I h a v e n o t s e e n h e r v e r s i o n . I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r h e r v e r s io n i s h e r e . B u t i f s h e d e n ie s t h a t t h e r e w a s 10 s u c h a m e e ti n g s h e m i g h t s a y, w h y w o u ld I h a v e c a l le d h e r i f th e r e w a s n o r o le f o r h e r in t h i s w h o l e th in g ? I t d o e s n o t m a k e s e n s e . S h e m i g h t s a y th a t . T h a t I c a l l e d h e r to a m e e ti n g a n d j u s t to l d h e r, I w a n t e d R 1 0 0 m il li o n a n d s h e w a s n o t g o i n g t o b e n e fi t fr o m i t . I w a s n o t a s k i n g h e r t o d o a n y th i n g . What was the purpose of asking to come to the m e e ti n g ? W h y d i d I w a n t to t e ll h e r a b o u t t h is ill e g a l a c tiv i ty th a t I w a s a b o u t t o g e t i n v o lv e d in ? M S S A M B O : T h e y k n e w I w a s t h e B E E p a r tn e r to A A R . T h o u g h t h e r e w a s n o s ig n e d c o n tr a c t b u t I w a s in t r o d u c e d – w h e n w e i n tr o d u c e d o u r s e lv e s t o S A A Te c h n ic a l w e i n tr o d u c e d o u r s e l v e s a s p a r tn e r s A A R 20 and SRS. W h y s h e d e c i d e d to te ll m e s h e i s th e o n e w h o n e e d s to r e s p o n d . H o w e v e r i n h e r r e s p o n s e t o t h e n o t ic e 3 . 3 is i t? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a t i s r i g h t . M S S A M B O : I n h e r – o k a y. S h o u l d I g e t t o t h a t? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : J a . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l j u s t c o n t in u e t o te ll m e w h a t e v e r y o u w a n t to t e l l Page 70 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 m e in r e s p o n s e to w h a t I a m s a y i n g to y o u w h a t s h e m ig h t s a y. I d o n o t k n o w w h a t s h e d e fi n it e ly w il l s a y. I a m j u s t s a y i n g if s h e d e n ie s t h a t t h e r e w a s s u c h a m e e t in g . O r s h e m i g h t a d m it t h a t th e r e w a s s u c h a m e e ti n g b u t d e n y t h a t – t h a t is p a r t o f t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n th is R 1 0 0 m il li o n a n d s o o n . M S S A M B O : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n i t is m y w o r d a g a i n s t h e r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u . N o – b u t I w a s j u s t w a n ti n g t o a l e r t y o u th a t y o u k n o w th e r e i s a p o s s i b i li ty t h a t th e y m i g h t s a y b u t t h e r e w a s n o p u r p o s e o n h e r o w n v e r s io n f o r c a l li n g h e r to t h e m e e t in g 10 b e c a u s e s h e w a s n o t g o i n g t o b e a s k e d t o d o a n y t h in g . But you say d e f in i te ly s h e – s h e s a id w h a t y o u s a y s h e s a i d a n d d e f in i te ly t h e m e e ti n g d id t a k e p la c e ? M S S A M B O : S h e – s h e d i d n o t d e n y in h e r r e s p o n s e to N o ti c e 3 . 3 th a t t h e r e w a s a m e e ti n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S A M B O : I n f a c t o n t h e N o ti c e 3 .3 . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : S h e i n d i c a t e d t h a t s h e h a v e m e e ti n g s a n y w a y th e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M S S A M B O : S o t h is p r o v e s t h a t I d i d n o t c a l l h e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SAMBO: She called me. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S A M B O : S h e u s e d t h a t p l a c e a s h e r o ffi c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 71 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 M S S A M B O : I f I c o u ld p u t i t t h a t w a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SAMBO: But of course she denied that she mentioned the R100 m il li o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. MS SAMBO: There were no minutes taken. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S A M B O : I t i s h e r w o r d a g a in s t m i n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d e v e n i f t h e m i n u t e s w e r e t a k e n p r o b a b l y t h e y 10 w o u ld n o t in c l u d e t h a t . M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r M b ik i w a . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir I t h i n k i t is a n a p p r o p r i a te m o m e n t t o turn to …. CHAIRPERSON: U n l e s s o f c o u r s e w e d e a li n g w it h t h e o t h e r m a t t e r w h ic h I h e a r d w h a t tw o w e e k s a g o w h e r e a l o t o f m i n u te s w e r e t h e r e f o r. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a t i s r i g h t . C H A I R P E R S O N : A l l k i n d s o f t h i n g s . Ye s o k a y c o n t i n u e . 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir I t h i n k i t is a n a p p r o p r i a te m o m e n t t o g o t o Ms K w i n a n a ’s r e s p o n s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S h e fi le d a s ta t e m e n t in r e s p o n s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : To r e c e i p t o f a R u l e 3 . 3 N o ti c e . Page 72 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I f I c a n a s k y o u tu r n t o p a g e 5 0 2 ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d a t p a r a g r a p h 3 a n d s h e s a y s t h e r e : “ C o n c e r n in g p a r a 4 .1 ” S h e is r e fe r r i n g t h e r e to t h e p a r a g r a p h n u m b e r s i n th e N o ti c e t h a t s h e received I believe. “I do not understand why I would tell Ms Sambo that I w a n t to r e s i g n a n d la y m y h a n d s o n t e n d e r s a s I 10 w o u ld n o t b e d e s t i tu t e w h e n I r e s i g n . I was o p e r a ti n g a n a u d i t a n d a c c o u n ti n g f ir m w h ic h I started in 1999. I was o p e r a t in g a p r o p e r ty d e v e l o p m e n t c o m p a n y w h i c h I s t a r te d in 2 0 0 0 a n d I w a s s i tt i n g i n o th e r b o a r d s w h ic h h a d n o t h i n g to d o w i t h S A A . M s S a m b o c a ll e d m e a n d s a i d s h e w o u l d lik e to m e e t a n d g r e e t a n d i n tr o d u c e h e r s e lf t o m e a s s h e is d o i n g w o r k f o r S A AT. I d e c i d e d t o g o w i th D o c to r Ta m b i w h o w a s a l s o a b o a r d m e m b e r a t S A AT. T h e m e e ti n g w a s h e l d a t P r o t e a H o t e l w h ic h is th e 20 p l a c e th a t w a s c o n v e n i e n t f o r D o c to r Ta m b i a n d I . A t t h e m e e ti n g s h e in tr o d u c e d h e r c o m p a n y a s t h e o n l y b l a c k f e m a l e o w n e d c o m p a n y i n a v i a ti o n a n d s h e o w n s a f le e t o f a ir c r a f t t h a t s h e le a s e s o u t. D u r in g o u r m e e ti n g I l e a r n t t h a t s h e i n f a c t h a d a c o m p l a i n t a g a in s t h e r p a r t n e r A A R a n d w a n t e d u s t o i n t e r v e n e . Page 73 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 S h e t o ld u s t h a t s h e h a s b e e n n h a s h i r u n n e r fo r A A R s in c e 2 0 11 w i t h o u t a n y f o r m o f r e m u n e r a ti o n a n d n o w t h e y o w e h e r R 1 0 0 m il li o n . W e a d v is e d h e r t h a t S A AT c a n n o t i n t e r v e n e i n th e ir b u s in e s s a s i t i s b e t w e e n t h e m a n d h a s n o th i n g t o d o w i t h S A AT. I d i d n o t k n o w M s S a m b o a t a l l b e f o r e th i s m e e t in g . R e a d i n g h e r a ff id a v i t I a m c o n v i n c e d th a t in d e e d s h e was a nhashi a runner for AAR.” W h a t is y o u r r e s p o n s e to t h a t M s S a m b o ? 10 M S S A M B O : Th is s t a t e m e n t t o m e h a s n o s u b s t a n c e . I t h a s b e e n v e r y c le a r t h a t I w a s in t r o d u c e d t o A A R b y t h e S o u th A f r ic a n g o v e r n m e n t a n d it w a s s a id w h e n I w a s – w h e n w e w e n t t o S A A Te c h n i c a l s o I c a n n o t h a v e b e e n n h a s h i o r t h e r u n n e r th a t I d i d n o t e v e n k n o w t h a t a h u m a n b e i n g c a n b e c o m e th a t r u n n e r o r n h a s h i if i t d ir e c tl y tr a n s l a t e s . Th e d e f in i ti o n o f n h a s h i . I t h i n k M s K w i n a n a i s m a k i n g a l le g a ti o n s t h a t s h e m u s t b r in g to t h e c o m m i s s io n t o p r o v e th a t I w a s t h a t n h a s h i th a t s h e s u g g e s t s a n d s h e m u s t b r in g t h e p r o o f t h a t I d e m a n d e d th e R 1 0 0 m il li o n t h a t s h e i s t a l k i n g a b o u t . A n d s h e is m is – s h e m is in t e r p r e te d w h a t S R S Av ia t io n w a s d o i n g . 20 I d o n o t o w n a ir p l a n e s . I r u n a n a ir c h a r te r c o m p a n y t h a t i s f u l ly li c e n c e d t o o p e r a t e , m a n a g e a n d le a s e a ir p la n e s . S h e m i s u n d e r s to o d m e . I d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d w h e r e s h e t o o k t h is I s a i d I o w n a fl e e t o f a ir c r a f ts . S h e m u s t b r i n g t h a t p r o o f h e r e a t t h e c o m m i s s io n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : D i d y o u in t h e m e e ti n g r e f e r t o a n y o f t h e d i ff ic u l ti e s y o u h a d b e e n h a v in g w i t h A A R ? Page 74 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 M S S A M B O : I d o n o t – I d id n o t . I d id n o t . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll y o u s e e s h e s a y s i n h e r a ff i d a v i t s h e a d m i ts t h a t t h e m e e ti n g a t Pr o te a H o t e l d i d ta k e p l a c e . B u t s h e s a y s i t t o o k p l a c e at your instance. Yo u a s k e d t o m e e t w i t h h e r a n d s h e s a y s a t t h a t m e e ti n g y o u t o ld h e r a b o u t c h a ll e n g e s i n y o u r r e l a ti o n s h i p w i th A A R a n d t h a t y o u s a i d t o h e r y o u h a d b e e n n h a s h i . Yo u a r e t h e – s h e s a y s y o u a r e th e o n e w h o c a m e u p w i t h t h e i d e a o f n h a s h i . She says you s a i d y o u h a d b e e n d o i n g th e w o r k a n d r u n n i n g a r o u n d b u t y o u w e r e n o t p a i d b y A A R a n d y o u – y o u s a id t h e y o w e d y o u R 1 0 0 m i lli o n a n d y o u 10 w a n t e d h e r o r t h e m t o i n t e r v e n e in y o u r r e la ti o n s h i p w i th A A R . W h a t d o y o u s a y to t h a t ? MS SAMBO: She must bring the proof. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll s h e s a y s y o u – th a t is w h a t y o u s a i d a n d y o u s a y s h e c a m e a n d s a i d s h e w a n t t o l a y h e r h a n d s o n c o n tr a c ts a n d s a i d s h e w a n t e d t o g e t R 1 0 0 m i ll io n . D i d y o u s a y w h a t s h e s a y s y o u s a i d ? MS SAMBO: Th is is – t h is i s a v e r y s e r i o u s a ll e g a t io n t h a t s h e is m a k i n g a g a in s t m e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : A n d I h a v e a lw a y s d e a l t w i t h m y p a r t n e r s d ir e c tl y. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MS SAMBO: Each time I can – it has been proven as we were going t h r o u g h m y s t a te m e n t t h a t e a c h ti m e I h a d a c h a ll e n g e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : W i th m y p a r t n e r s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 75 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 M S S A M B O : I w o u l d c o n fr o n t t h e m . T h e r e w a s n o n e e d f o r m e t o g o t o h e r a s a C h a i r p e r s o n . I d o n o t s e e a l in k , s tr a t e g ic a l ly o f a n y th in g t h a t she would have done for me. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : I a d d r e s s m y is s u e s m o s t i n w r it i n g a n d t h e y a r e o n th e fi le a s p r o o f . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SA MBO: E a c h t i m e I s p o k e t o A A R h a v i n g a c h a ll e n g e i t w a s f o ll o w e d b y e m a ils . T h e r e i s p r o o f . T h is i s th e o n ly a l l e g a ti o n t h a t is 10 o n t o p o f t h e ta b le r i g h t n o w w i t h n o p r o o f . A n d a c c o r d i n g t o m e w i th n o s u b s t a n c e a t a ll . C H A I R P E R S O N : M s M b ik i w a – M r M b ik iw a I a m s o r r y. D o e s s h e d e a l w i t h th e a l le g a t i o n b y M s S a m b o th a t s h e c a m e t o h e r h o u s e ? I d o n o t seem to see that here. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : N o C h a ir s h e d o e s n o t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S h e r e fe r s to t h e a l le g a t i o n o f w a n t in g t o la y h e r h a n d s o n c o n tr a c ts w h ic h – w h ic h M s S a m b o s a y s w a s s a i d f o r th e fir s t t i m e a t h e r h o u s e . S h e d e a ls w i t h th a t a ll e g a t io n b u t s h e d o e s n o t 20 d e a l h e a d o n w i t h M s S a m b o ’s a ll e g a ti o n t h a t t h a t m e e ti n g a t h e r h o u s e t o o k p la c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I t s i m p l e i s n o t d e a lt w i t h . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . And what paragraph – what paragraph in Ms S a m b o ’s a ffi d a v it d e a ls w it h t h a t m e e t in g ? Page 76 of 180 I just want to see how far 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 t h a t p a r a g r a p h i s f r o m t h e p a r a g r a p h s t h a t s h e is r e s p o n d i n g t o i n h e r a ffi d a v i t M s K w i n a n a ? ADV MICHAEL M B I K I WA : Ye s C h a ir they are in c o n s e c u t iv e p a r a g r a p h s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a c o n s e c u t iv e p a r a g r a p h s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 6 0 a n d 6 1 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : P a r a g r a p h 6 0 i s t h e – is t h e m e e ti n g a t t h e p r i v a t e r e s id e n c e a n d p a r a g r a p h 6 1 is t h e o n e a t t h e Pr o t e a H o te l i n 10 Midrand. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M s K w in a n a r e s p o n d s to 6 1 . CHAIRPERSON: So she could not have not seen … A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I t i s v e r y d o u b t f u l C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e a l l e g a ti o n s i n p a r a g r a p h 6 0 ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I t i s v e r y d o u b t f u l . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A n d s h e h a s c h o s e n to s a y n o t h i n g a b o u t t h a t part. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t t h a t a ll e g a t io n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M s S a m b o o n e f u r th e r q u e s ti o n o n t h e – o n b o t h t h e P r o t e a H o te l a n d t h e – t h e m e e ti n g a t y o u r – a t y o u r r e s id e n c e . D id y o u – d id y o u te ll a n y o n e e ls e a b o u t w h a t h a d o c c u r r e d Page 77 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 a t t h o s e m e e t in g s ? M S S A M B O : I h a d e m p l o y e e s y e s . S o m y e m p l o y e e s a t t h a t ti m e w e r e a w a r e o f t h e d is c u s s i o n s th a t w e r e m o v i n g b e t w e e n t h e d i ff e r e n t p a r ti e s a b o u t t h i s A A R r e l a ti o n s h i p . Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d y o u w o u ld h a v e s a i d t o y o u r e m p lo y e e s t h a t M s K w in a n a h a d a p p r o a c h e d y o u a n d s a id t h a t s h e w a n t e d to l a y h e r h a n d s o n c o n tr a c t s a n d th a t s h e w a s g o in g to u s e a r u n n e r f o r p u r p o s e s o f p a y in g a R 1 0 0 m i ll io n ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . T h is i s s o m e th i n g t h a t w a s a m a z i n g . I t is s o m e t h i n g 10 t h a t I c o u l d j u s t k e e p to m y s e l f. I n e e d e d t o ta lk t o s o m e b o d y t o m a k e s u r e t h a t m a y b e s o m e b o d y c o u ld m a k e s e n s e t o m e y o u k n o w. S o y e s I d is c u s s e d t h i s w i th m y te a m . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u . C h a ir w e h a v e m a n a g e d t o o b t a i n th o s e e n l a r g e d p h o to g r a p h s o f th e d e l e g a t io n to A A R . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I f w e c o u ld b e g l e a v e t o h a n d a c o p y u p a n d t o t h e w i tn e s s ? C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v e y o u m a r k e d w h e r e th e y s h o u l d g o i n to t h is – o r you have not marked into this? 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W e h a v e n o t d o n e s o y e t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e i f y o u – w o u l d i t n o t b e b e t te r t h a t y o u d o s o a ft e r m a r k i n g th e m s o th a t w h e n y o u r e f e r t o e a c h o n e o f th e m y o u g iv e t h e p a g e n u m b e r t h a t w i ll c o r r e s p o n d . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a t w il l c o r r e s p o n d t o … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 78 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : To Ms S a m b o ’s b u n d l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e b u n d l e . Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O t h e r w is e i t b e c o m e s d i ffi c u l t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A lr ig h t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a t i s fi n e C h a ir w e w i ll – in t h a t c a s e w e w i ll a d d r e s s t h a t a f te r … C H A I R P E R S O N : A f t e r lu n c h j a . 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A f t e r th e l u n c h – l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M s S a m b o i f w e c o u ld p i c k it u p i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t a t p a r a g r a p h 6 6 a n d t h i s is a f te r y o u r m e e t i n g s w i t h – a t t h e P r o t e a H o te l a n d a t y o u r r e s id e n c e . C a n y o u t e l l t h e c o m m i s s i o n w h a t happened thereafter? M S S A M B O : P l e a s e g iv e m e a s e c o n d ? C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e a b o u t i n h e r a ffi d a v i t … A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A t p a r a g r a p h 6 6 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s . 20 M S S A M B O : O k a y th e r e a f t e r Ms J a c k s o n c o n t a c te d m e . S h e s e n t m e a n e m a i l a n d g a v e m e fe e d b a c k a b o u t t h e r e c e n t v i s i t b y S A AT a t t h e ir p r e m is e s t h a t e v e r y th in g w e n t v e r y w e l l a n d t h e y w e r e – s o r r y. And t h a t th e y w e r e w o r k i n g o n d e te r m in in g a d a t e w h e n A A R t e a m w o u ld t h e n r e c i p r o c a t e t h e v i s i t to S A AT. Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A lr i g h t a n d a f te r s h e t o l d y o u a b o u t t h e Page 79 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 s u c c e s s o f t h e – o f t h e d e l e g a t io n w h a t h a p p e n e d t h e n ? M S S A M B O : Th e r e a ft e r I r e c e iv e d a n in v it a ti o n fr o m t h e C E O o f A A R M r D a v id S t o r c h A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S o r r y t o i n te r r u p t y o u t h a t is S- t- o - r - c - h f o r t h e tr a n s c r ip t . MS SAMBO: M r S t o r c h i n v i te d m e t o a p a r ty t h a t w a s g o i n g t o b e a t t h e P a r is Ai r S h o w i n Fr a n c e o n t h e 1 6 J u n e 2 0 1 5 . I n i t ia lly I a c c e p t e d t h e i n v i ta t io n b u t a s I s t a r t e d u n p a c k i n g t h e a c ti v i ti e s p r i o r to th e in v i ta t io n I t o o k a d e c is io n n o t t o a tt e n d t h e p a r t y. O n e o f th e t h i n g s i s 10 I f e lt t h e y w a n te d m e to b e t h e r e w h e r e t h e y t h in k i t is n e c e s s a r y f o r m e t o b e a n d w h e r e it is n o t n e c e s s a r y f o r m e t h e n I w o u ld b e e x c lu d e d . A n d a l l a l o n g I h a v e b e e n p a y in g m y m o n e y. I have been u s i n g m y o w n r e s o u r c e s t o in tr o d u c e th e m t o o p e n o p p o r t u n i t ie s to t h e m t o t e a c h th e m a b o u t t h e m a r k e t . W h a t is n e c e s s a r y fo r t h e m t o b e a b l e to d o b u s in e s s in S o u t h A fr ic a ? I f e l t v e r y m u c h t h a t I w a s t a k e n f o r g r a n t e d a n d M s J a c k s o n c o m p l e t e ly d e c id e d to e x c l u d e m e t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f 2 0 1 4 a t t h e b e g i n n i n g o f 2 0 1 5 in t h e a c ti v i ti e s s u r r o u n d i n g S A AT. A n d th e r e I a m i n v i t e d t o g o a n d c e l e b r a t e . S o I d i d n o t a t te n d t h a t i n v i ta t io n . B u t w h e n t h e y c a m e b a c k – w h e n t h e y w e r e a t P a r is A ir 20 S h o w i t w a s o n t h e n e w s t h a t S A AT h a s s i g n e d a M O U w i t h A A R . I s e n t a n e m a il o ff c o n g r a t u la t in g M s J a c k s o n a n d h e r te a m i n m a k i n g s tr i d e s in s ig n i n g a M O U w h ic h g a v e t h e m – w h ic h I b e l ie v e g a v e t h e m a le v e r a g e t o b e a b le t o th e n d o b u s i n e s s w i t h A A R o r w it h S A AT. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : And do you remember when the MOU was concluded? Page 80 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 M S S A M B O : I w a s n o t p a r ty t o i t , n o . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : D o y o u k n o w a n y t h i n g a b o u t w h a t i t p r o v id e d for? MS SAMBO: No. It is – I d i d r e a d a b o u t i t b u t I g u e s s I w a s n o t in t e r e s te d i n i t s o I c a n n o t p u t it a s my – a s my s t a te m e n t . H e r e t o d a y – we can – I guess we can just download and read the MOU. I… CHAIRPERSON: What did the signing of that MOU without your p a r t ic ip a ti o n m e a n f o r th e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n S R S a n d A A R ? W h a t – w h a t w a s t h e s i g n i fi c a n c e o f t h e f a c t t h a t S A AT h a s s ig n e d a M O U w i t h 10 A A R w it h o u t S A R S a s y o u s a w it . W h a t w a s t h e s i g n i fic a n c e ? MS SAMBO: Ye s . Th e r e w a s n o s i g n i fi c a n c e . They – when I had a d is c u s s io n w i th S h a r o n s h e s a i d t h i s is t h e w o r k t h a t t h e y h a v e b e e n d o i n g i n th e p a s t y e a r w i t h R a fi e k a n d h i s t e a m . S o – s o it w a s v e r y c le a r th a t i t is s o m e t h in g t h a t I w a s n o t p a r ty t o a n d I a ls o d i d n o t f e e l t h a t I w a n te d to b e p a r t o f it . H e n c e I c o n g r a t u la t e d t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e B E E c o n s o r t iu m . M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: T h a t y o u t o ld m e e a r l ie r o n y o u h a d b e e n t o l d w a s going to be led by Mr More. 20 M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h i s s t a g e o f th e s i g n i n g o f t h e M O U w e r e y o u s til l p a r t o f t h a t c o n s o r ti u m ? B e c a u s e I u n d e r s t o o d y o u e a r l ie r o n t o s a y y o u w e r e s a i d to b e p a r t o f t h a t c o n s o r ti u m th a t i s S R S ? M S S A M B O : T h a t c o n s o r t i u m , th e s tr u c t u r e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 81 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 M S S A M B O : T h e p r o p o s e d s t r u c t u r e w a s s t il l o n t h e ta b l e w i t h A A R . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : A n d m y e n g a g e m e n t w i th A A R w a s th a t I d o n o t w a n t to b e p a r t o f th is s tr u c t u r e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : Yo u a r e w e lc o m e t o i n c l u d e o th e r p e o p l e b u t p le a s e l e a v e m e a s a n in d e p e n d e n t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : I n t h is c o n s o r t i a . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : A n d d u r i n g t h e t i m e o f t h e d is c u s s io n w i t h t h e c o n s o r t i a u n f o r t u n a t e ly m y n a m e s t il l r e m a i n e d w i t h i n t h a t c o n s o r t ia o n p a p e r. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : T h e r e w a s n o f o r m a li s e d – y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u d i d n o t w a n t to b e p a r t o f t h e … MS SAMBO: No. CHAIRPERSON: O f th e – o f th e m . Yo u w a n t e d t o r e m a i n a n in d e p e n d e n t e n ti ty. M S S A M B O : Ye s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v i n g a r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h A A R . M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e y c o u l d h a v e a r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h A A R i f t h e y w a n t e d t o . Yo u h a d n o p r o b l e m . M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: But you did not want to be part of them Page 82 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a i r w e a r e c l o s e to t h e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t a n d I a m a l m o s t o n a – o n a n e w t o p i c . T h e r e is ju s t o n e e m a i l I w o u l d lik e to r e f e r Ms S a m b o t o . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : B e f o r e w e a d j o u r n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 10 M s S a m b o c a n I a s k y o u to t u r n t o p a g e 2 0 8 ? A r e y o u th e r e ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th e – t h e r e is t w o e m a il s h e r e . O n e i s fr o m R a h u l S h a h a n d th e n a t t h e t o p i t is f o r w a r d e d b y J o h n H o l m e s a n d y o u a r e o n e o f th e p e o p l e c c ’d , d o y o u s e e t h a t ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n I a s k y o u t o r e a d j u s t t h e f ir s t t w o p a r a g r a p h s o f th e e m a i l f r o m M r S h a h ? M S S A M B O : O k a y t h e o n e t h a t s a y s J o h n , C h r is a n d K e n ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a t o n e y e s . 20 M S S A M B O : A lr ig h t . “ O n e o f th e q u e s ti o n s p r o c u r e m e n t h a s f o r M s S a m b o a n d u s i s a b o u t t h e s t a r t d a te i n t h e e v e n t t h a t w e c o m e to th e t e r m s f o r s u p p o r ti n g P B H . T h e ir c o n tr a c t w i th A ir F r a n c e is e n d in g o n J u n e 3 0 t h . T h e q u e s t io n p o s e d b y th e m is , i f t h e y fi n a li s e t h e Page 83 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 c o n tr a c t h o w q u ic k ly w e g e t r e a d y a n d w h e t h e r w e w i ll b e t o s u p p o r t t h e m fr o m J u ly 1 s t . ” I th in k t h e r e h a s b e e n s o m e ty p o e r r o r s t h e r e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S u r e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S u r e . M S S A M B O : B u t I th in k w e g e t th e g is t CHAIRPERSON: Hm. What was PBH? MS SAMBO: 10 P B H i s t h e s a m e c o n tr a c ts – th e y a r e c o m p o n e n ts c o n tr a c ts . S o m e t i m e s i t is r e f e r r e d t o p o w e r b y t h e h o u r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w h o d o y o u u n d e r s t a n d p r o c u r e m e n t t o be? W h e n i t s a y s , o n e o f t h e q u e s ti o n s p r o c u r e m e n t h a s fo r M s Sambo? MS SAMBO: Ye s I w a s c a ll e d b y t h e ir c o m m o d i ty b u y e r fo r th e c o m p o n e n ts c o n tr a c ts M s E v e ly n F a l li t [ ? ] a n d t h a t q u e s ti o n w a s p o s e d t o m e t e l e p h o n i c a lly t h a t , i f t h e y c o n c lu d e th e f iv e m o n th ’s c o n t r a c t s 20 w i ll A A R b e r e a d y a n d b e a b l e t o c o m m i s s i o n t h e c o n tr a c t . T h a t is w h a t it w a s a ll a b o u t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : O k a y. A n d a t w h a t p o i n t w a s th e te n d e r p r o c e s s a t t h i s s ta g e , d o y o u r e m e m b e r ? M S S A M B O : N o . I t h in k w e c a n ju s t r e f e r t o th e d a t e s o n t h e c o n tr a c ts – o n th e te n d e r b id . Page 84 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A lr ig h t . M S S A M B O : To c o n f ir m . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir w e w i ll p ic k th is u s a ft e r t h e l u n c h adjournment. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. W e w i ll a d j o u r n f o r l u n c h a n d w e w i ll r e s u m e a t t w o o ’c l o c k . W e a d j o u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s c o n t in u e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u C h a i r. M s S a m b o , c a n w e p i c k i t u p a t p a r a g r a p h 7 3 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t a n d t h a t i s w h e r e y o u d e a l w it h w h a t y o u h a v e c a l le d th e th ir d S A AT b i d . M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n y o u d e s c r ib e f o r u s w h a t th is t e n d e r was? MS SAMBO: T h is w a s t h e th ir d b i d t h a t w a s a d v e r t is e d b y S A A Te c h n i c a l fo r a i r c r a ft c o m p o n e n ts , b e c a u s e t h e s e c o n d b i d w a s a l s o n o t awarded to anyone. 20 CHAIRPERSON: S o w a s i t w i t h d r a w n o r w a s a d e c is i o n m a d e t h a t n o b o d y w a s g o o d e n o u g h fo r i t o r w h a t w a s t h e s t o r y ? MS SAMBO: There … CHAIRPERSON: Second - second one. M S S A M B O : T h e r e w a s n o f o r m a l c o m m u n ic a t io n t o - fr o m S A AT. CHAIRPERSON: So they just - you never - you were never told Page 85 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 a n y th in g u n t il t h e r e w a s w h a t y o u c a l l th e t h ir d b i d ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . I t - i t - t h e y c a n c e ll e d , b u t t h e y n e v e r - th e y d i d n o t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ex p la in ? M S S A M B O : T h e - th e b i d w a s n o t f o r m a lly c a n c e l le d . W e s u b m i t t e d t h e b id . W e w e r e e x p e c t in g f e e d b a c k , b u t t h e r e w a s n o f o r m a l f e e d b a c k t h a t w a s s e n t t o u s . I d o n o t k n o w. M a y b e t h e y w o u l d h a v e s e n t i t t o A A R a n d t h e y d id n o t c o m m u n ic a t e w it h m e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 M S S A M B O : B u t t o m y k n o w l e d g e a n d fr o m th e c o m m u n ic a ti o n I h a v e w i t h S A AT. I d o n o t h a v e a n y t h in g c o n f ir m i n g t h e c a n c e l la t io n o f th e second bid. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o w t h e t h ir d b id w a s th a t s ti ll t h e s a m e b i d a s t h e fi r s t a n d t h e s e c o n d ? MS SAMBO: Ye s , b u t t h e d i ff e r e n c e w i t h th e th ir d b i d is t h a t i t w a s o n ly f o r f iv e m o n t h s a n d n o t f iv e y e a r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e p r e v io u s o n e w a s fo r fiv e y e a r s ? M S S A M B O : T h e l a s t t w o w e r e f iv e y e a r s e a c h . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e la s t o n e t h a t h a p p e n e d t w i c e . M S S A M B O : I a m s o r r y C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir i n f a i r - i n f a i r n e s s t o M s S a m b o th e y w e r e is s u e d a t l e a s t w i th - w i t h s e p a r a t e b i d n u m b e r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y, b u t in s u b s t a n c e i t w a s t h e s a m e t h i n g ? Page 86 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n s u b s ta n c e … CHAIRPERSON: Same … (intervenes). M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I d e n t ic a l . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I g u e s s i t m ig h t b e c o n v e n i e n t to c o n t i n u e t o c a l l t h e m f ir s t , s e c o n d a n d t h ir d b i d . M S S A M B O : Ye s . Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 10 B u t y o u s a y th e t h ir d o n e w a s t h e s a m e e x c e p t t h a t t h e r e w a s s o m e d i ffe r e n c e ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e i t w a s fo r fiv e m o n t h s a n d n o l o n g e r f o r f iv e years? M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a t w a s t h e o n ly d i ff e r e n c e ? M S S A M B O : T h a t w a s t h e o n ly d i ff e r e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Right. 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : And do you know why a tender was - was is s u e d f o r o n l y f iv e m o n t h s ? MS SAMBO: W e d id i n q u ir e a n d w e w e r e t o ld th a t t h e c u r r e n t t e n d e r that was running. It was coming to an end and they needed a t e m p o r a r y c o n tr a c t w h i ls t t h e y w e r e w o r k i n g o n th e n e w t e c h n ic a l r e q u ir e m e n t s fo r t h e fiv e y e a r b i d . S o - s o th e y - w h o e v e r w a s h o l d in g Page 87 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 t h e c o n tr a c t a t th a t ti m e . T h e b i d w a s c o m i n g to a n e n d a n d S A AT d e c i d e d t h a t th e a d v e r t is e a n o t h e r o n e f o r fiv e m o n t h s a n d d u r i n g t h a t fiv e m o n t h s it w i ll g iv e t h e m t i m e t o w o r k o n t h e t e c h n ic a l r e q u ir e m e n ts o f t h e n e x t fiv e years. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n I a s k y o u t o t u r n to th e - t h e e m a i l th a t y o u r e c e iv e d s e n d i n g y o u t h e t e n d e r d o c u m e n t? T h a t is a t p a g e 2 - 2 - 1 . CHAIRPERSON: r ig h t . 10 M a y b e i n - ju s t t o m a k e s u r e w e g e t th e ti m e fr a m e s T h i s w a s n o w a r o u n d J u ly 2 0 1 5 w h e n t h e t h ir d t e n d e r w a s a d v e r t is e d . 3 0 J u ly 2 0 1 5 . Is t h a t r i g h t ? MS SAMBO: It was on 30 July 2015. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d t h e c lo s i n g d a t e w a s i n i ti a lly 1 0 A u g u s t 2 0 1 5 … M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: But this was extended to 17 August. M S S A M B O : 1 7 A u g u s t 2 0 1 5 . Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M s S a m b o , c a n I a s k y o u to g o t o p a g e 2-2-1? 20 M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Do you see M r R o b b e r ts e … M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : To Mr F id d e s ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . Page 88 of 180 the email there fr o m 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W h o i s M r Fi d d e s ? M S S A M B O : M r Fi d d e s is o n e o f A A R C o r p o r a t io n ’s M a n a g e r s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d c a n I a s k y o u ju s t to r e a d t h e v e r y l a s t s e n te n c e b e f o r e i t s a y s k i n d r e g a r d s ? MS SAMBO: “ A l l C o m m u n ic a ti o n s s h o u l d b e l i m i te d to t h e P r o je c t M a n a g e r, m y s e l f o r to E v e l y n F a lli t ( ? ) in c o p y. ” A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u . I w i ll - I w i ll r e tu r n t o th a t i n a m o m e n t . I f w e c a n th e n p i c k i t u p a t y o u r a ffi d a v it a t - fr o m p a r a g r a p h 10 7 5 a n d t e l l u s w h a t h a p p e n e d a f te r th e b i d - th e - t h e th ir d b i d w a s is s u e d . MS SAMBO: O n - o k a y M r L e o n R o b b e r t s e i s s u e d th e b i d a n d it w a s s e n t s tr a i g h t t o A A R . I t w a s n o t o n t h e i r w e b s i t e a s u s u a l a n d th e n A A R f o r w a r d e d th e b i d t o m e . S u b s e q u e n t to t h a t A A R a r r a n g e d a t h ir d t e a m i n g a g r e e m e n t f o r t h is fi v e m o n t h s b id w it h S R S . On 10 August 2 0 1 5 M s C h e r y l J a c k s o n c a m e t o S o u t h A f r ic a a n d I m e t w it h h e r a t t h e r e s t a u r a n t i n S a n d t o n a n d w e - w e d i s c u s s e d t h e b id , b e c a u s e t h e y h a d r e c e i v e d t h e b i d a l r e a d y - t h e t h i r d b id - a n d I w a s - a n d I w a n te d t o t o n e g o ti a te w i t h M s C h e r y l J a c k s o n t h a t I d o n o t - w h e n w e r e s p o n d t o 20 t h is b i d . I d o n o t w a n t t o b e p a r t o f th e c o n s o r t ia . I w a n t t o r e m a i n a s a n i n d e p e n d e n t p a r t n e r in - i n t h is c o n s o r ti a . M s J a c k s o n a t t h e ti m e s h e w a s a l s o s t a y i n g a t S a n d t o n a t M ic h e l a n g e l o . So our meetings w o u ld b e a r o u n d w h e r e s h e b o o k e d t h e h o t e l . A t t h a t m e e ti n g a l s o s h e t o l d m e t h a t M r B a g u s a n d M r M o r e w o r k e d v e r y h a r d i n g e t t in g t h e m t o Page 89 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 s ig n a n M O U w i th S A AT. T h e o n e t h a t w a s s i g n e d a t t h e P a r is A ir S h o w a n d t h e r e fo r e M r - Mr M o r e a n d M r B a g u s t h e y w i ll fo r m a p a r t o f t h e c o n s o r t i a g o i n g forward. Meaning what I was told before. T h a t M r R a fi q u e B a g u s is o n ly a c o n s u l t a n t . O n - a t th a t m e e ti n g th e s t a tu s q u o c h a n g e d . G i v i n g h i m a n o p p o r tu n i t y t o n o w p a r t ic i p a te o n t h e b id . Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t h a d h a p p e n e d to t h e f a c t t h a t - a s I u n d e r s t o o d y o u r e v i d e n c e - a f te r t h e P a r is A ir S h o w y o u a n d A A R s e e m e d n o t t o w a n t t o o r y o u d id n o t w a n t t o i n te r a c t w i t h t h e m , b e c a u s e y o u w e r e 10 a g g r ie v e d ? Yo u t h o u g h t th e y - th e y in v i t e y o u w h e n i t is c o n v e n i e n t f o r t h e m a n d t h e y d o n o t in v i t e y o u w h e n i t is n o t c o n v e n i e n t f o r th e m a n d - a n d I th o u g h t y o u - y o u s a i d t h a t M s J a c k s o n a f t e r t h a t s e e m e d a ls o t o e x c l u d e y o u o r d id I m is u n d e r s t a n d ? I g o t t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t th e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n S R S a n d A A R a f te r t h e P a r i s S h o w - A ir S h o w p a r t y - w a s n o t s o g o o d . MS SAMBO: Not - not … C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I s e e n o w y o u - y o u a r e b a c k to g e th e r. S o w h a t happened? M S S A M B O : O h . O k a y C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O r d i d I m is u n d e r s ta n d s o m e th i n g ? M S S A M B O : M a y b e a li t t le b i t . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. M S S A M B O : W h e n Mr R a f i q u e a n d M r M o r e c a m e to t h e p ic t u r e - w h e n t h e y s ta r t e d fe a t u r i n g w i t h A A R . AAR parked me on the side and o p e r a t e d w i th Mr M o r e a n d M r B a g u s w i t h t h e ir s tr a t e g y w h i c h th e y s a i d Page 90 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 it w a s d i ffe r e n t fr o m m i n e a n d l e a d i n g u p t o t h e P a r i s A ir S h o w th e d e c is i o n I to o k n o t t o g o t o t h e a ir s h o w. Ye s . I t w a s th e b e g i n n i n g - i t w a s w h e n I w a s r e a l is in g t h a t n o w I a m b e i n g s id e - li n e d . S o I d e c i d e d t h a t I w ill n o t g o t o t h e a ir s h o w, b u t t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p w a s n o t c o m p l e te ly s tr a i n e d y e t . I s t il l b e li e v e d t h a t A A R w il l c o m e b a c k o n t h e t a b l e a n d w e d is c u s s h o w w e a r e g o i n g t o w o r k to g e t h e r g o in g f o r w a r d . H e n c e I d id e m a i l th e m c o n g r a t u l a ti n g t h e m o n t h e M O U s ig n e d a n d s u b s e q u e n t to t h a t M s J a c k s o n t o ld m e s h e is c o m i n g t o 10 S o u th A fr ic a . L e t u s h a v e a s i t d o w n a n d d is c u s s . Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l I d i d n o t a s k y o u w h e n y o u to ld m e a b o u t e m a i li n g th e m c o n g r a t u l a ti n g t h e m , b u t I w a n t e d to f in d o u t w h e th e r t h a t w a s g e n u in e c o n g r a t u l a ti o n s . MS SAMBO: It was … C H A I R P E R S O N : O r - o r w h e th e r i t w a s n o t r e a ll y g e n u in e . M S S A M B O : I t w a s g e n u in e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S S A M B O : I w a s c o n g r a tu la t i n g t h e m … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 M S S A M B O : G e n u i n e ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : D e s p i te th e f a c t t h a t t h e y h a d d o n e t h is w i t h o u t y o u r in v o lv e m e n t ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . I a m a b u s i n e s s m a n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : I t w a s g e n u in e . Page 91 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : I c o n g r a t u l a te d t h e m . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : T h e y h a d r e a c h e d a m i l e s to n e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S S A M B O : T h a t is w h a t I s a w i n fr o n t o f m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, b u t a t th a t ti m e - a m I - a m I r ig h t to s a y t h a t 10 w a s s ti ll t h e p e r i o d d u r i n g w h ic h y o u f e l t y o u w e r e b e i n g s i d e - l i n e d ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . It - i t w a s a t th e b e g i n n i n g o f m e r e a l is in g t h a t I a m a c t u a ll y b e i n g s i d e - l in e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y. M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d s o w h a t w a s t h e o u tc o m e o f y o u r m e e ti n g w i th - w i th M s J a c k s o n w h a t y o u h a v e d e s c r ib e d a t t h e ( in d is ti n c t) c o m p a n y. M S S A M B O : A n d t h e n s h e - th a t i s w h e n s h e i n d i c a t e d th a t M r B a g u s is g o i n g t o c i r c u l a te a s tr u c tu r e th a t w il l n o w r e s p o n d w i t h A A R o n t h e 20 t h ir d b i d . T h e b r o a d b a s e d B l a c k Ec o n o m ic s tr u c t u r e I r e f e r r e d to e a r l ie r. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t d i d M s J a c k s o n s a y t o y o u a t th a t m e e t i n g w h e n y o u s a id y o u d id n o t w a n t to b e p a r t o f th e c o n s o r ti u m ? Yo u w a n t e d t o s ta n d a l o n e h a v i n g a p a r t n e r s h i p w i th A A R . MS SAMBO: S h e i n s i s te d t h a t M r B a g u s h a s a lr e a d y n e g o t ia t e d w it h Page 92 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 A A R t h a t t h r o u g h h is c o n s u l t in g e n g a g e m e n t t h a t h e w il l c r e a te th is b r o a d b a s e d Bl a c k Ec o n o m i c E m p o w e r m e n t. S o th a t is w h a t th e y h a d a g r e e d u p o n . S o s h e d id n o t g i v e m e a n o p t io n to e x it fr o m - fr o m th e c o n s o r ti a . I t - i t w a s - th a t is w h a t w e w a n t to w o r k w i t h . Th e t h i r d b id w e w a n t t o s u b m i t w i t h o n e c o n s o r t iu m . N o t w it h d i ff e r e n t p a r ti e s . Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u t h e n a c c e p t t h a t t h a t w a s t h e p o s i ti o n ? T h e n y o u w o u l d c o n ti n u e w i t h t h e m b e in g p a r t o f t h e c o n s o r ti u m . Even t h o u g h y o u w o u l d h a v e p r e fe r r e d d i ff e r e n t l y. 10 MS SAMBO: I d id n o t a c c e p t . I s t il l p u s h e d fo r S R S t o s u b m i t a s a n in d e p e n d e n t t o a p o in t w h e r e I in d ic a t e d t o A A R t h a t t h is c o n s o r t ia y o u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t is n o t fo r m a l ly c o n s t it u t e d . T h e - t h e c o n s o r ti u m d o e s n o t e x is t . I t - i t i s m o r e lik e a p l a n t h a t i s o n t h e t a b l e . S o w h e n y o u s u b m i t a b i d . T h e c o n s o r ti u m n e e d s t o b e r e g is t e r e d . T h e r e n e e d s t o b e D ir e c t o r s a p p o i n t e d . Shareholders, c e r t if ic a te s . Yo u k n o w. A ll th e r e g u l a t o r y r e q u i r e d d o c u m e n ta t io n a n d t h e c o n s o r ti a d id n o t h a v e t h a t . I t h a d n o t g o n e to th a t s t a g e . So I s u g g e s t e d - I w a s s u g g e s t in g t o C h e r y l t h a t th e y c o n t in u e b i d d i n g w i t h S R S a s w e h a v e b e e n b id d in g , b e c a u s e t h e - t h e c o m p a n y is r e a d y. 20 I t c o m p l ie s w it h a ll t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts , b u t th a t is w h e n M s J a c k s o n s a i d M r R a f iq u e B a g u s a n d Mr M o r e h a v e w o r k e d v e r y h a r d on the MOU. So they cannot - we cannot leave them out. They need to b e p a r t o f th e s u b m is s io n fo r t h e f iv e m o n t h s . CHAIRPERSON: J a , b u t I w a n t to u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u a t ti t u d e w a s a ft e r s h e h a d s a i d t h a t . D i d y o u l e a v e t h e m e e ti n g … ? Page 93 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 MS SAMBO: I did not agree. CHAIRPERSON: D i d y o u l e a v e t h e m e e t in g o n a n a c c e p t a n c e t h a t i f y o u w e r e g o i n g t o b e p a r t o f t h e b id a s S R S y o u w o u l d h a v e t o b e p a r t o f t h e c o n s o r ti u m o r d i d y o u l e a v e t h e m e e t in g o n th e u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t y o u w o u l d s u b m it y o u r o w n s e p a r a t e b i d o r d i d y o u le a v e t h e m e e ti n g w i th - o n t h e b a s is th a t y o u w o u l d s u b m i t s o m e t h in g . S a y t o S A AT y o u w e r e p a r t o f t h e b i d i n v o l v in g t h e c o n s o r ti u m and AAR. W h a t w a s th e u n d e r s t a n d in g ? Yo u r - y o u r a tt i tu d e a s y o u le f t th e m e e t i n g in t e r m s o f w h e r e d o y o u f e a t u r e i n th is b i d . 10 M S S A M B O : W e d i d n o t h a v e a c o n c l u s io n . S h e u n d e r s t o o d … CHAIRPERSON: But in your own mind? M S S A M B O : I w a s s ti ll w a i ti n g t o s e e t h e s tr u c t u r e … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S S A M B O : B e c a u s e I h a d n o t r e c e iv e d t h e s t r u c t u r e y e t . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. MS SAMBO: A l l I k n e w is t h a t C h e r y l a s s u r e d m e t h a t I a m s til l t h e le a d … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : B E E p a r tn e r. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y. M S S A M B O : S o - s o I w a s s t il l w a it i n g f o r th e s tr u c t u r e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d - a n d t h e n t e l l u s w h a t h a p p e n e d a f t e r y o u r m e e t i n g w i t h M s J a c k s o n a t t h e ( in d is ti n c t) c o m p a n y ? C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u r e fr e s h i n g y o u r m e m o r y ? M S S A M B O : Ye s C h a ir. I a m s o r r y. Page 94 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MS SAMBO: O k a y. I h a v e a ls o - I h a v e a lr e a d y in d ic a t e d th a t A A R in q u ir e d w h y fi v e m o n t h s a n d n o t fi v e y e a r s a n d t h e f e e d b a c k w a s g iv e n t h a t th e o t h e r c o n tr a c t is e n d in g a n d t h e y n e e d s o m e b o d y t o - t o h o l d t h e c o n tr a c t a n d t h e n M s J a c k s o n - t h e n M s J a c k s o n s t a r t e d y o u k n o w in d i c a t in g to m e t h a t s h e h a s b e e n c o m i n g b a c k a n d f o r th t o S o u t h A fr ic a to tr y a n d g e t t h i s d e a l . I t h a s b e e n a l o n g ti m e . A A R h a s s p e n t a l o t o f m o n e y tr y i n g t o c a p t u r e t h i s m a r k e t . Yo u k n o w a n d g e t in t o S A A Te c h n i c a l . S o s h e 10 w a s fr u s tr a t e d . S h e - s h e a ls o lo o k e d v e r y m u c h u n d e r p r e s s u r e a n d s h e t o l d m e t h a t if s h e d o e s n o t g e t t h is c o n tr a c t th is ti m e a r o u n d . S h e is g o in g t o b e d is m is s e d fr o m - fr o m A A R . T h a t w a s d u r in g t h e d a y when we met. T h e n l a te r o n - a fe w d a y s a f te r t h a t m e e ti n g w e m e t a g a i n w i t h M s - M s C h e r y l J a c k s o n a t B u k h a r a R e s t a u r a n t w h ic h w a s ju s t o u t s i d e M ic h e l a n g e l o w h e r e s h e s t a y e d . was in the evening. T h a t m e e t i n g to o k p l a c e . It I d o n o t h a v e t h e s p e c if ic d a te , b u t i t w a s i n August 2015. W h e n w e m e t a t - I f o u n d h e r a lr e a d y a t t h e r e s t a u r a n t , 20 b e c a u s e s h e - s h e c a ll e d m e a n d s h e d i d n o t s o u n d t o o g o o d a n d s h e w a n t e d t o t a l k to m e . S o I w e n t t o s e e h e r. I t w a s e a r ly e v e n i n g . S o I w e n t t o s e e h e r. I fo u n d h e r t h e r e . M s J a c k s o n w a s d r in k i n g . S h e s h e w a s r e a l ly fr u s tr a t e d . S h e v e n t e d v e r b a ll y a ls o h e r fr u s tr a ti o n a b o u t n o t m a n a g i n g t o - to g e t th is c o n tr a c t. Back and forth and - and that AAR is now Page 95 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 p u t t in g s o m u c h p r e s s u r e o n h e r t o g e t th e c o n tr a c t. S o i n t h a t s t a t e a n d s h e i n s is t e d th a t s h e w a n te d i n fo r m a ti o n fr o m m e . T h a t c o u l d h e l p t h e m t o w i n th is b i d . S o I t o o k i t a s p a r t o f m y fa c t fi n d i n g o r in f o r m a ti o n fi n d i n g f o r A A R a s I h a v e b e e n d o i n g s i n c e w e s t a r te d t h e w o r k i n g r e l a ti o n s h i p a n d g i v i n g t h a t I h a d a v e r y c l o s e - n o w - fr i e n d ly r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h Ms Nomsa Memela. T h e n I c a l le d M s N o m s a M e m e l a a t th a t ti m e . I s a i d h e r e i s th e s i t u a t io n I a m f a c e d w i t h r i g h t n o w a t B u k h a r a R e s ta u r a n t . Cheryl Jackson is drinking. 10 S h e is s o d r u n k . S h e is fr u s tr a te d . S h e i n s is ts s h e w a n ts in f o r m a t io n th a t c a n a s s is t h e r t o w i n t h e b id . W h a t c a n w e d o a n d t h e n M s N o m s a M e m e la i n v it e d m e t o c o m e t o h e r i n A l b e r to n to g e t s o m e in f o r m a ti o n . S o I t o l d C h e r y l th a t I a m g o i n g t o m e e t w i t h N o m s a t o g e t s o m e in f o r m a ti o n t h a t c a n a s s is t . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is Ms M e m e l a ? M S S A M B O : M s M e m e la . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . M S S A M B O : I a p o l o g is e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa s A l b e r to n w h e r e s h e w a s w o r k i n g o r w a s t h a t h e r home? 20 MS SAMBO: Her home. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MS SAMBO: But we did not meet at her home. S h e d ir e c te d m e to m e e t w i t h h e r a t t h e S h e l l G a r a g e a s y o u e n t e r A l b e r to n n e x t t o - n e x t t o S A R S O ff i c e s . B e f o r e y o u c o u ld p r o c e e d to t h e S A R S O ff i c e s a t - a t Alberton. So she came in her vehicle. I m o v e d fr o m m y v e h ic le . Page 96 of 180 I 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 w e n t i n s id e to h e r s a n d s h e s a v e d in f o r m a ti o n f o r m e o n t h e m e m o r y s t ic k w h ic h I t o o k a n d w e n t b a c k t o B u k h a r a R e s t a u r a n t to M s J a c k s o n . S o w h e n I g o t t o - to M s J a c k s o n a t B u k h a r a R e s t a u r a n t I in d i c a t e d to h e r th a t I d o h a v e s o m e i n f o r m a t io n , b u t I h a v e a p r o b l e m t h a t I h a v e b e e n w o r k i n g f o r A A R f o r s o m a n y y e a r s a n d y o u r e f u s e to p a y m e a r e t a i n e r a n d y o u d o n o t w a n t t o p a y a n y th i n g . S o fo r m e th a t in f o r m a ti o n w a s k e y fo r m e a t th a t t i m e t o a s k M s C h e r y l J a c k s o n t o r e c o n s i d e r th e d e c is i o n o f n o t p a y in g m e t h e r e t a i n e r. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 10 Yo u h a v e r e f e r r e d to in f o r m a t io n . What - w h a t w a s t h e i n fo r m a t i o n ? MS SAMBO: T h e in f o r m a t io n - i t w a s o n a m e m o r y s ti c k . It was an E x c e l s p r e a d s h e e t t h a t c o n t a in e d p r i c i n g f o r - p r e v i o u s p r i c i n g f o r th e s a m e c o m p o n e n ts b i d . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d j u s t ta k e u s t h r o u g h s te p b y s t e p . CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y. Pr ic i n g p r o v i d e d b y w h o m in r e g a r d t o p r e v i o u s b i d s ? B y t h e e n t i ty t h a t h a d t h e c o n tr a c t a t t h e ti m e t h a t w a s g o i n g t o c o m e t o a n e n d o r b y o th e r b id d e r s w h o h a d p u t i n b i d s , b u t they had not got the tender? M S S A M B O : I t w a s - I lo o k e d a t a - a t th a t s p r e a d s h e e t . Sc a n n e d - I 20 I b a s ic a lly s c a n n e d a n d I s a w t h e n a m e s o f s o m e o f th e b i d d e r s l ik e Ai r Fr a n c e w h i c h h o l d i n g t h e - t h e c o n tr a c t a t t h a t t i m e a n d L u f th a n s a ’s n a m e w a s m e n t io n e d o n - o n th a t s p r e a d s h e e t a n d I s a w - t h o s e a r e t h e t w o th a t I r e m e m b e r v e r y w e l l t h a t I s a w o n t h a t s p r e a d s h e e t a n d M s M e m e l a s a i d to m e . H e r e is th e i n fo r m a t io n o f th e p r e v i o u s b id s . Ye s . Page 97 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Yo u s a y t h a t y o u - y o u a s k e d Ms M e m e l a w h e t h e r s h e h a d a n y in f o r m a t io n f o r y o u . D i d - d i d y o u a s k h e r w h e t h e r s h e c o u ld g i v e y o u b i d p r ic e s ? MS SAMBO: No. I s a id i n f o r m a ti o n . W h a t i n fo r m a ti o n c a n s h e h e l p w i t h ? T h e n s h e s a i d I m u s t c o m e to h e r, b u t w h e n I g o t to h e r t h e n s h e g a v e m e t h e E x c e l s p r e a d s h e e t w h ic h h a d t h e p r i c e s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir, w e h a v e a l s o r e c e iv e d a r e s p o n s e to a R u le 3 . 3 N o ti c e s e n t to M s M e m e l a . I w o u ld li k e t o ta k e y o u t o t h a t 10 Ms Sambo. M S S A M B O : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I t i s a t p a g e 5 - 1 2 - 5 - 1 - 2 . T h is is - th is is t h e r e l e v a n t p a r t o f h e r - h e r s t a te m e n t . I t i s n o t a n a ff i d a v i t . S o r r y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : It is a statement in support of her c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n a p p l ic a ti o n … M S S A M B O : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : And at paragraph 8.2 on page 5 - 5-12 - 5-1-2. She says … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l is - is th is a n a ffi d a v i t o r ju s t … A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I t i s j u s t a s t a t e m e n t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: d e c l a r a ti o n ? A s t a te m e n t . W h y is i t n o t a n a ffi d a v i t o r a ff ir m e d D o t h e r u l e s n o t r e q u ir e t h a t i t s h o u l d b e - h e r v e r s io n s h o u l d b e o n a ffi d a v i t o r a ff ir m e d d e c l a r a t i o n ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir, I d o n o t b e li e v e s o . I b e li e v e t h a t t h e Page 98 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 - s h e h a s t h e o p ti o n to s u b m i t a n a ff i d a v i t o r a s t a te m e n t , b u t w e a r e ju s t d o u b l e c h e c k in g t h a t . CHAIRPERSON: Have you found it? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Ye s . If y o u g o t o R u l e 3 .4 C h a ir. “ A n a p p li c a t io n i n te r ms o f R u le 3 .3 . 6 a b o v e m u s t b e s u b m i tt e d i n w r it i n g to t h e S e c r e t a r y o f t h e Commission within 14 …” C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m - I a m s o r r y. W h a t r u l e ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 3 . 4 . 10 CHAIRPERSON: 3.4. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d y o u w il l s e e t h e r e in th e s e c o n d s e n te n c e C h a ir o f 3 . 4 th e a p p l ic a t i o n m u s t b e a c c o m p a n i e d b y a s t a te m e n t fr o m t h e i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n r e s p o n d … CHAIRPERSON: N o - n o la t e r o n t h e r e i s a r u le th a t s a y s a n a p p lic a ti o n - w h e r e t h e r u l e s r e q u ir e a n a p p l ic a ti o n t h a t m u s t b e a n a p p lic a ti o n o n a ffi d a v i t . I t h i n k t h a t i s t o w a r d s th e e n d o f t h e R u l e s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Yo u m a y w e ll b e r i g h t a b o u t t h a t C h a ir. b e li e v e i t is 11 . 3 C h a ir. R u l e 11 . 3 . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 20 “ W h e r e v e r t h e s e r u le s m a k e provision for any p e r s o n w h o a p p l ie s t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n o r t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n . Th e a p p li c a t io n m u s t b e a s u b s ta n ti v e a p p lic a ti o n o n a ffi d a v i t w it h a m o ti o n . T h e a ffi d a v i t m u s t a m o n g o t h e r t h i n g s r e fl e c t t h e r e le v a n t fa c ts , t h e o r d e r s o u g h t a n d t h e g r o u n d s r e l ie d u p o n to Page 99 of 180 I 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 s e e k th a t o r d e r. ” N o w s h e m i g h t n o t h a v e a p p li e d f o r le a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e a n d ju s t p u t u p a n - a s t a t e m e n t , b u t d o t h e p r o v is io n s h a v e p r o v i s i o n f o r j u s t a s t a t e m e n t t h a t is n o t u n d e r o a t h ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A - a s t a t e m e n t t h a t is n o t u n d e r o a th a s a a s a r e s p o n s e t o a R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: D o t h e R u le s m a k e p r o v i s i o n fo r th a t o r is t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t p e o p l e w h o m i g h t n o t w a n t t o g o u n d e r o a th j u s t p u t - I c a n p u t u p a s t a t e m e n t w it h o u t g o i n g u n d e r o a th o r a n a ff ir m a ti o n ? 10 M a y b e fo r w h a t it is w o r t h c o n t i n u e … A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d p u t t o h e r. Th e n i n v e s ti g a te t h e is s u e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir, i f I … CHAIRPERSON: So that, because it would better if - if somebody has a version. Th e y p u t t h e i r v e r s i o n u n d e r o a t h o r a n - a n a ffir m e d d e c l a r a ti o n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C e r t a i n ly C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a a n d n o t t o c h a ll e n g e s o m e b o d y ’s e v i d e n c e th a t i s g iv e n u n d e r o a t h o n th e b a s i s o f a d o c u m e n t t h a t is n o t u n d e r o a t h o r 20 t h a t i s n o t a n a ffir m e d d e c l a r a ti o n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: L e t e v e r y b o d y b e u n d e r o a t h o r a ffir m e d d e c l a r a t i o n f o r t h e ir v e r s i o n s a n d th e n l e t u s t a k e i t fr o m t h e r e . O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir, a r e y o u - a r e y o u h a p p y fo r m e t o p r o c e e d to p u t M s M e m e la ’s v e r s i o n ? Page 100 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s y o u c a n d o s o fo r n o w a n d t h e n y o u c a n in v e s t i g a t e l a te r o n s o t h a t , g o i n g f o r w a r d w e c a n l o o k a t t h a t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : So Ms Sambo I was at paragraph 8.2 on page 512. MS SAMBO: Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d t h e r e Ms M e m e l a s a y s , “ I d e n y a n d r e fu t e th e a l l e g a ti o n a s fa ls e b y M s S a m b o , i n that I have never arranged to meet M s Sambo anywhere o u t s i d e S A AT. 10 I fu r t h e r d e n y a n d r e f u t e h e r a l le g a ti o n t h a t I f u r n is h e d h e r w i t h a m e m o r y s t ic k c o n ta i n i n g t h e id e n t i ti e s o f b i d d e r s a n d t h e ir b i d p r i c e s , th e r e is n o w a y t h a t I w o u ld h a v e s u c h i n f o r m a ti o n b e c a u s e i n m y c a p a c i ty a s H O D S C M – W h a t d o e s t h a t s ta n d f o r ? MS SAMBO: I d o n ’ t k n o w. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : “ I d i d n o t s i t o n th e e v a lu a ti o n te a m c r o s s functional sourcing team”. W h a t is y o u r r e s p o n s e to t h a t ? MS SAMBO: M y r e s p o n s e is t h a t I h a v e s u b m it t e d e v i d e n c e t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n t h a t M s M e m e l a is – th e a ll e g a ti o n t h a t w e n e v e r m e t is n o t 20 tr u e , s o th e e v id e n c e is b e f o r e th e C o m m i s s io n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : MS SAMBO: Te l l u s a b o u t t h a t e v id e n c e ? W h a t e x a c t ly w o u l d y o u li k e t o k n o w ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W h a t e v i d e n c e h a v e y o u p r o v i d e d to t h e C o m m i s s i o n in s u p p o r t o f y o u r a l le g a ti o n t h a t y o u m e t w i t h M s M e m e l a a n d o b t a i n e d t h e f la s h d i s k … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . Page 101 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: E x c u s e m e C h a ir ? CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: N o s h e m e a n s h e r o r a l e v id e n c e , is n ’t i t? Yo u ’ r e t a lk i n g a b o u t y o u r o r a l e v i d e n c e ? O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: O r is th e r e s o m e t h in g e ls e y o u h a v e s u b m i t t e d i n s u p p o r t o f y o u r e v id e n c e ? MS SAMBO: I h a v e s u b m it t e d t h e a c t u a l m e m o r y s ti c k . CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: 10 Ye s . Where the excel spreadsheet was saved on. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , o k a y, ta k e i t fr o m t h e r e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u . M s S a m b o c a n y o u j u s t e x p l a in t o u s w h y y o u w e r e o n ly a b l e t o fi n d t h e m e m o r y s t ic k o n M o n d a y n i g h t w h e n y o u g a v e i t t o t h e C o m m is s i o n ’s i n v e s t ig a t o r s ? MS SA MBO: W h e n I w a s i n it i a l ly l o o k in g fo r t h e m e m o r y s ti c k I w a s lo o k in g i n m y o ff ic e , I w a s lo o k in g a t h o m e , I l o o k e d e v e r y w h e r e a n d I c o u l d n ’ t f i n d th e m e m o r y s tic k , h e n c e w h e n I w a s w r i t in g m y a ffi d a v it t h e m e m o r y s t ic k w a s n o t t h e r e a n d I h a d p u t o n t h e a ffi d a v i t th a t I d o n ’t h a v e th e m e m o r y s ti c k . T h e n o n Fr i d a y – l a s t Fr i d a y, i f y o u c o u l d please remind me the date? 20 CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: N o i t ’s fi n e , l a s t Fr i d a y y e s . L a s t F r i d a y w e – I t h e n h a d a c o n s u l t a ti o n w i t h m y le g a l c o u n s e l a n d th e C o m m i s s io n ’s i n v e s ti g a to r s a n d t h e l e g a l t e a m . D u r i n g t h a t e n g a g e m e n t I w a s g iv e n a ll t h e f e e d b a c k t o N o t ic e 3 . 3 o f t h e i m p l ic a t e d p a r ti e s o n m y a ff id a v i t a n d o n e o f – a n d a l l t h r e e o f t h e s t a te m e n ts t h a t I r e c e i v e d o n F r i d a y, o n e fr o m M r Z w a n e , o n e fr o m M s Page 102 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 K w in a n a a n d o n e fr o m M s M e m e l a , a ll o f t h e m h a d a p e r s o n a l a t ta c k i n m y m e m o r y a n d th e m e d ic a l c o n d i ti o n th a t I d e a lt w it h a t th e b e g in n in g o f m y s ta t e m e n t a n d o v e r a n d a b o v e t h a t , Ms M e m e l a d e n i e d th e a l le g a ti o n s t h a t I p u t o n m y s t a t e m e n t a n d I d e c id e d t o g o a n e x tr a m i le to find this evidence. S o o n Fr i d a y w h e n I l e f t S a n d t o n f r o m t h e c o n s u l t a ti o n I w e n t h o m e a n d I t h e n c a l le d m y e x - e m p l o y e e s t h a t I w o r k e d w i t h a t t h a t ti m e a n d r e q u e s te d t h e m to p l e a s e r e m i n d m e , b e c a u s e t h e C o m m is s i o n is s i tt i n g o n t h e 4 t h a n d th e 5 t h a n d t h is is w h a t I’ m f a c e d w i th , I n e e d i n fo r m a ti o n . 10 P le a s e r e m i n d m e i f t h e r e ’s a n y th in g t h a t w e c a n t a k e b a c k t o t h e C o m m i s s io n , p l e a s e a s s is t m e . T h e n t w o o f t h e f o r m e r e m p l o y e e s a r e i n S o w e t o w h ic h is M s M a z w i S e b e k o a n d S a m k e l s i w e S e b e k o , t h e y a r e c o u s i n s a n d I a ls o i n v i te d m y s is t e r b e c a u s e I w o r k e d w i t h h e r, T h e m b e l ih l e Tw a l a . S o i t w a s th e f o u r o f u s a n d a s w e w e r e d e li b e r a t i n g t h a t ’s w h e r e Mazwi said, I r e m e m b e r I h a v e t h e m e m o r y s t ic k , y o u g a v e i t to m e , b u t I ’ m g o i n g t o lo o k fo r it . So she gave me that undertaking, I went back home…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: 20 F o r m e r e m p lo y e e s y e s . CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: M a z w i b e i n g o n e o f y o u r fo r m e r e m p l o y e e s . O k a y. T h e n I w e n t h o m e c o m f o r t e d th a t w e m i g h t g e t t h is e v i d e n c e t h a t w il l p r o v e t h a t I a m t e l li n g t h e tr u t h . O n S a tu r d a y I c a l l e d M a z w i , a s k i n g , d i d y o u fi n d t h e m e m o r y s t ic k a n d s h e s a i d to m e , n o w e h a v e n ’t f o u n d t h e m e m o r y s tic k y e t b u t I d o r e m e m b e r th a t I a ls o g a v e i t t o a fr i e n d o f m i n e t o k e e p i t f o r m e , a la d y b y t h e n a m e o f Page 103 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 Gugu, I don’t know her surname. m e m o r y s t ic k fr o m G u g u . S o I w ill t r y a n d g e t it a n d g e t t h e Th e n o n S u n d a y w h e n I c a m e b a c k fr o m C h u r c h I c a ll e d a g a i n to f in d o u t if s h e h a s t h e m e m o r y s t ic k a n d s h e s a i d , n o s h e s t il l d o e s n ’ t h a v e th e m e m o r y s t ic k in h e r p o s s e s s i o n , s h e w i ll l e t m e k n o w o n M o n d a y m o r n in g . M o n d a y m o r n in g c a m e a n d a s I w a s a b o u t to s t a r t a m e e t in g th a t I h a d o n M o n d a y, th e n I c a ll e d a g a i n , a s k in g a b o u t t h e m e m o r y s ti c k a n d s h e s a i d to m e , t h e y h a v e f o u n d th e m e m o r y s t ic k . T h e n I a r r a n g e d o n e o f m y c u r r e n t c o l l e a g u e s a n d a s k e d h i m – h i s n a m e is M r Si p h i w e Th e m b e a n d a s k e d h i m t o g o a n d fe tc h 10 t h e m e m o r y s t ic k fo r m e f r o m M a z w i a n d t h e n – t o g o a n d f e tc h t h e m e m o r y s t ic k b e c a u s e M a z w i s a id s h e i s g o i n g to g iv e t h e m e m o r y s t ic k t o S h a d r a c k b e c a u s e o n t h a t d a y s h e w a s m o v i n g h o u s e s , fr o m D i e p k l o o f t o s o m e w h e r e e ls e I d o n ’t r e m e m b e r w h e r e s h e w a s m o v in g t o b u t i t ’s e a s ie r t o a c c e s s D i e p k l o o f s o s h e w i ll l e a v e t h e m e m o r y s t ic k w i t h a g e n tl e m a n c a l le d S h a d r a c k w h o m I k n o w v e r y w e l l t h a t a s s is t u s w h e n w e m o v e o ff ic e o r m o v e h o u s e s , h e ’s g o t a v a n , h e is t h e ir n e i g h b o u r i n D ie p k l o o f . S o I g o t a t e x t m e s s a g e fr o m S i p h i w e b e c a u s e I w a s a lr e a d y i n a m e e t in g n o w, s a y i n g I’ m s tr u g g l i n g to g e t h o l d o f S h a d r a c k , s o I i m m e d ia t e l y s e n t h i m t h e c o n ta c t n u m b e r s f o r M a z w i , I 20 s a i d , p le a s e t a l k t o M a z w i b e c a u s e I ’ m i n a m e e ti n g . So I gave him b o t h S h a d r a c k ’s n u m b e r a n d M a z w i ’s n u m b e r t o ta lk t o t h e m . Then la t e r o n w h e n I c h e c k e d m y m e s s a g e s h e c o n fir m e d t h a t h e f o u n d th e m e m o r y s ti c k f r o m M a z w i , th e n I a s k e d h i m t o t a k e th e m e m o r y s tic k t o a fr i e n d o f m i n e w h o w o r k s j u s t o u ts i d e o f D i e p k l o o f , I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t t h a t a r e a is c a ll e d [i n d i s t i n c t ] s o m e t h i n g , ju s t b e f o r e y o u g o t o t h e Page 104 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 s t a d i u m , w h o h a d p la n n e d t o c o m e a n d s e e m e a f te r w o r k – w h e n s h e le a v e s w o r k . S o I a s k e d S i p h i w e to t a k e t h e m e m o r y s tic k a n d g iv e i t t o m y fr ie n d M s B a w in n i e L e m a le le w h o w a s g o i n g t o b r i n g it w i t h w h e n s h e c o m e s t o s e e m e i n th e e v e n in g a n d th a t ’s h o w t h e m e m o r y s ti c k got to me. CHAIRPERSON: I t w a s a lo n g j o u r n e y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : CHAIRPERSON: Q u it e a c h a in o f c u s t o d y [ la u g h t e r ] . O k a y l e t ’s tr y a n d g e t g o in g . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 10 C h a ir c a n I s a y t h a t M s H o f m e y r, i n h e r in tr o d u c t i o n , e x p l a in e d th e p r o c e s s t h a t h a d h a p p e n e d w i t h i n th e C o m m i s s i o n , t h e d a t a fo r e n s ic te a m h a s i m a g e d t h e fl a s h d i s k t h a t Ms Sambo provided to us, they have advised us that the properties of the s p r e a d s h e e t t h a t is o n th e fl a s h d is k s h o w th a t i t w a s c r e a te d – s o r r y la s t s a v e d o n t h e 3 r d o f A u g u s t 2 0 1 5 a n d t h a t th e u s e r th a t s a v e s i t w a s M s N o n ts a s a M e m e l a . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h e r e ’s a n a ffi d a v it f o r t h c o m in g fr o m t h e in v e s t i g a t o r s w i t h i n D F T … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: 20 S o t h o s e a r e t h e t e c h n ic a l p e o p l e w h o h a v e l o o k e d at the computers and so on? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : CHAIRPERSON: I n d e e d C h a ir. O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir w e ’v e a ls o p r in t e d a c o p y o f th e s p r e a d s h e e t w h ic h w e ’v e i n c l u d e d i n M s S a m b o ’s b u n d le a n d p e r h a p s we can go there. Page 105 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, b e fo r e y o u p r o c e e d , l e ts g o b a c k to t h e m e e ti n g t h a t y o u s a y y o u h a d w i th M s M e m e l a a t t h e S h e ll g a r a g e i n A l b e r t o n , d id y o u s a y S h e l l g a r a g e ? MS SAMBO: Shell garage. CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: C o n f ir m e d . CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: Ye s n e x t to … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . N o t f a r fr o m S A R S ? N o t f a r fr o m S A R S . CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s , h o w d id i t c o m e a b o u t th a t , t h a t s p o t w a s c h o s e n a n d w h o c h o s e t h e s p o t a s t h e s p o t w h e r e t h e tw o o f y o u s h o u l d m e e t? MS SAMBO: M s M e m e l a liv e s i n A l b e r t o n , s o s h e ’s t h e o n e w h o s u g g e s t e d w e m e e t. CHAIRPERSON: Is t h a t w h a t s h e to l d y o u a t th e ti m e , t h a t s h e li v e d in A lb e r t o n o r is t h a t w h a t y o u k n e w ? MS SA MBO: N o t h is is w h a t I k n e w, r e m e m b e r i t w a s o v e r t h e t i m e w h e n I’v e i n d i c a t e d … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: 20 Yo u h a v e b e c o m e fr ie n d s ? W e h a d b e c o m e fr ie n d s y e s , s o I k n e w t h a t s h e liv e s i n Alberton yes. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , b u t a t th a t ti m e w h e n y o u m e t h e r a t th e S h e ll g a r a g e , h a d y o u b e e n t o h e r h o u s e o r h e r h o m e a lr e a d y o r n o t r e a ll y ? MS SAMBO: I n t h e p a s t y e s , I v i s i t e d h e r. CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: Yo u h a d b e e n t o h e r h o m e ? Ye s I v i s i t e d . Page 106 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: A n d y o u k n o w i t i s i n A l b e r to n ? I k n o w it is i n Al b e r t o n . CHAIRPERSON: A n d w h e r e d i d s h e – w a s s h e w o r k in g a t t h e A ir p o r t where did she work? MS SAMBO: S h e w o r k e d a t t h e A ir p o r t a t S A A Te c h n i c a l . CHAIRPERSON: So the Shell garage was on her way home or was that on her way home would that be more or less where she would pass if s h e w a s g o i n g h o m e o r n o t r e a lly ? MS SAMBO: 10 Ye s i t i s o n h e r w a y h o m e . CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: It was on her way? J a i t ’s ju s t a s y o u o n - r a m p . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , a n d w h e r e w e r e y o u c o m i n g f r o m , w h e r e w e r e y o u r o ff ic e s ? MS SAMBO: Fr o m S a n d t o n , I w a s c o m i n g fr o m S a n d to n fr o m [i n d is t in c t] . CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: Fr o m t h e m e e ti n g ? Fr o m t h e m e e t in g w i t h M s J a c k s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y a lr ig h t , s o y o u s a y s h e w a s t h e o n e w h o s u g g e s t e d t h a t y o u m e e t a t th e s h e l l g a r a g e . 20 MS SAMBO: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: B u t in i ti a l ly s h e h a d s a i d a t h o m e ? No she did not. CHAIRPERSON: O h I t h o u g h t y o u s a id s h e s a i d y o u s h o u l d c o m e t o h e r h o m e b u t l a t e r s h e c h a n g e d a n d s a i d , l e t’s m e e t a t t h e g a r a g e . MS SAMBO: No, no, no. Page 107 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: N o s h e s a i d S h e ll g a r a g e ? Shell garage. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, a lr i g h t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M s S a m b o c a n I a s k y o u to turn to page 553. MS SAMBO: Ye s I’v e g o t it . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d y o u ’ ll s e e th a t f r o m 5 5 3 t o 5 5 7 d o y o u r e c o g n is e t h o s e s p r e a d s h e e t s ? MS SAMBO: 10 Ye s I d o . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : MS SAMBO: T h is is t h e p r ic in g fo r t h e c o m p o n e n t b i d . CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: Just repeat that, what are they? I t’s t h e p r ic i n g f o r t h e c o m p o n e n t b id . CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: W h a t a r e th e y ? W h e r e d i d y o u g e t it fr o m ? I g o t i t fr o m M s M e m e l a . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h r o u g h t h e m e m o r y s t ic k ? MS SAMBO: T h r o u g h th e m e m o r y s ti c k y e s . CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: 20 Ye s , a l l t h r e e p a g e s ? Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : CHAIRPERSON: T h e r e a r e fi v e p a g e s . O h , o k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : E a c h p a g e r e p r e s e n ts a t a b f r o m t h e e x c e l s p r e a d s h e e t. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y s o t h e s e a r e th e s p r e a d s h e e t s t h a t y o u g o t fr o m t h e m e m o r y s ti c k th a t M s M e m e l a g a v e y o u ? Page 108 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 MS SAMBO: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d M s S a m b o , w h a t d i d y o u d o w i th th is in f o r m a ti o n ? MS SA MBO: O n t h e n i g h t t h a t I r e c e iv e d t h e m e m o r y s ti c k , I d i d n ’ t d o a n y th in g w i th th e i n f o r m a t i o n b u t I w e n t b a c k t o M s J a c k s o n a n d t o l d h e r t h a t I ’v e g o t t h e in f o r m a t io n , I’v e g o t t h e p r ic i n g , I a c tu a lly t o l d h e r b e c a u s e a t t h a t t i m e I a l r e a d y k n e w, th e i n f o r m a ti o n is t h e p r ic i n g . CHAIRPERSON: 10 Did you know that from what Ms Memela had told you a t t h e m e e t in g a t t h e S h e ll g a r a g e ? MS SA MBO: N o w h e n s h e s a v e d th e m e m o r y s tic k s h e o p e n e d – i t w a s – s h e w a s s i t ti n g o n th e d r iv e r ’s s e a t w h e n w e m e t … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: And she opened her laptop…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: O h s h e o p e n e d i t , th e n y o u s a w ? Ye s , th e n s h e s a v e d . CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: Ye s t h a t ’s w h a t I m e a n . O h o k a y. Ye s a n d s h e s a i d t h i s is t h e p r i c i n g o f th e l a s t b i d s , y e s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 20 S o t e l l u s w h a t h a p p e n e d n e x t , w h a t d id y o u d o w i t h t h e f la s h d is k ? MS SAMBO: Th e n I w e n t h o m e – a f t e r t h e m e e ti n g w i t h M s J a c k s o n I w e n t h o m e w i t h th e d is k … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: A n d h o w d id th e m e e ti n g w i t h Ms J a c k s o n e n d , I r e m e m b e r a t s o m e s ta g e y o u s a i d t h a t y o u s a i d to h e r y o u w e r e n o t g o i n g t o g iv e h e r th e in f o r m a t io n , y o u ’v e g o t t h e i n fo r m a ti o n b u t y o u Page 109 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 w o n ’t g i v e i t t o h e r b e c a u s e y o u w a n t y o u r R 1 0 0 m il li o n . MS SAMBO: N o I n e v e r a s k e d f o r R 1 0 0 m i lli o n [ l a u g h te r ] . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y m a y b e y o u d id n ’ t s a y t h a t b u t y o u s a i d y o u w a n t to b e p a i d . MS SAMBO: I a s k e d h e r to r e v ie w h e r d e c is i o n o r t h e A R ’s d e c is io n n o t t o p a y m e m y r e t a in e r f e e s f o r th e w o r k t h a t I d o . CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 10 MS SAMBO: O k a y. I ’ m s o r r y y o u d i d n ’ t s a y R 1 0 0 m il li o n ? No, no, no. CHAIRPERSON: B u t d i d y o u s a y h o w m u c h y o u b e l ie v e d y o u s h o u ld be paid? MS SAMBO: N o , n o w e d i d n ’ t e v e n ta lk a b o u t th e fi g u r e s . CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: W e ll , n o s h e d i d n ’ t a g r e e n o r d i d s h e r e f u s e . CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: O k a y, d i d s h e r e fu s e t o r e v ie w ? Ja what did she say? S h e w a s v e r y d r u n k , I’ m s o r r y t o s a y th a t , t h a t n ig h t s h e w a s c o m p le t e l y d r u n k t h a t’s w h e n s h e e v e n to l d m e t h a t s h e h a d c a n c e r a n d s h e h a d r e c e n tly d i v o r c e d , i t w a s a lo t o f t h i n g s , s o w e c o u l d n ’ t 20 h a v e a v e r y c o n s t r u c tiv e d is c u s s i o n . T h e n I l e f t , w e a g r e e d th a t w e ’ ll meet again. CHAIRPERSON: D i d y o u s a y y o u r m e e t in g w i t h h e r w a s in t h e evening? MS SAMBO: I t w a s in t h e e v e n i n g , e a r l y e v e n i n g . CHAIRPERSON: I t h a d s ta r t e d a r o u n d w h a t t i m e , b e f o r e y o u w e n t to Page 110 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 t h e S h e l l g a r a g e m e e ti n g ? MS SAMBO: It would have been around 5h30, 6h00PM. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y a n d w h a t t i m e d i d y o u m e e t w i th M s M e m e l a a t t h e S h e l l G a r a g e , m o r e o r le s s ? MS SAMBO: I t c o u ld h a v e b e e n a r o u n d 7 h 0 0 P M . CHAIRPERSON: O h , o k a y a n d t h e n fr o m t h e r e y o u w e n t b a c k to S a n d t o n t o d o y o u r m e e ti n g w it h M s J a c k s o n ? MS SAMBO: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 10 MS SAMBO: A n d th e n l a te r o n y o u w e n t h o m e ? Then I went home. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, a lr i g h t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M s S a m b o y o u d i d a s k M s J a c k s o n if s h e w o u ld p a y y o u , i n w h i c h c a s e y o u w o u l d g iv e h e r th e f l a s h d is k , i s t h a t r ig h t ? MS SAMBO: I t w a s n o t a c o n d i ti o n lik e t h a t , i t w a s a s k i n g h e r t o r e v ie w t h e d e c i s i o n o f p a y i n g m e a r e ta in e r b e c a u s e I’ v e b e e n d o i n g a lo t o f w o r k a n d th e y d o n ’ t w a n t t o p a y m e a n d w it h t h e in f o r m a ti o n a t h a n d , f o r m e , I t h o u g h t I w o u l d u s e t h a t a s a le v e r a g e b u t n o t t o s a y s h e is p a y i n g o n l y f o r th is i n f o r m a ti o n , b u t fo r t h e m to r e v ie w t h e 20 d e c is i o n o f p a y in g m e m y r e t a in e r f o r a ll t h e w o r k I ’v e b e e n d o i n g . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I s t h e r e a s o n th a t y o u d id n ’ t g i v e h e r th e fl a s h d is k b e c a u s e s h e w o u ld n ’t p a y y o u t h e r e t a i n e r ? MS SAMBO: No. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : MS SA MBO: W h y d i d n ’ t y o u g iv e h e r t h e f la s h d i s k ? W h e n I g o t b a c k t o h e r a n d I s t a r t e d n e g o ti a ti n g m y Page 111 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 r e ta i n e r – b e c a u s e I h a v e th is i n f o r m a ti o n n o w … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: Which she wanted. CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: W h ic h s h e w a n t e d . Ye s . S h e c r ie d f o u l s a y i n g th a t in t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s i f s h e w e r e t o p a y m e n o w b e c a u s e I’ v e g o t t h is p r i c i n g in f o r m a t io n o f th e b i d t h a t w a s r u n n in g a t th a t t i m e i t w il l b e r e g a r d e d a s b r i b e r y a n d c o r r u p ti o n . A s s o o n a s s h e s a id t h a t I s a i d – y o u k n o w i n s i d e m y s e l f I w a s lik e , t h a n k y o u f o r o p e n in g my e y e s I a c t u a ll y d i d n ’ t t h in k i t w a s 10 b r i b e r y a n d c o r r u p ti o n s o I’ m n o t g o in g t o g i v e y o u th e i n fo r m a ti o n , t h a t ’s h o w I l e f t w it h th e i n f o r m a ti o n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M s S a m b o d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t a s k i n g S A AT f o r a n y t e n d e r i n fo r m a ti o n w h i l e a b i d w a s o p e n w a s w r o n g ? MS SA MBO: Ye s i t w a s w r o n g , a t t h a t t i m e my j u d g e m e n t w a s c lo u d e d . W h e n I w a s d o i n g i t a t t h a t t i m e , m y ju d g e m e n t w a s c l o u d e d , I have t h is pressure, R a f ie k is d e l iv e r i n g , h is m a k in g those in tr o d u c t i o n s , th is s i d e I ’ m b e i n g s i d e - l in e d , i t ’s l ik e I ’ m n o t p e r fo r m i n g a n d t h i s o n e i s c r y i n g fo u l a n d I th o u g h t , o k a y le t m e g e t t h is b u t th e n w h e n I r e a li s e d t h a t w h a t I’ m d o i n g i s w r o n g , I d i d n o t g iv e th e 20 in f o r m a ti o n . I h e ld t h e in f o r m a t io n a n d h e n c e t h e m e m o r y s t ic k e n d e d u p , e v e n m o v i n g fr o m m e t o b e k e p t a w a y – fa r a w a y f r o m m e . S o y e s , I r e a li s e d i t w a s w r o n g t o ta k e it , I a d m i t i t w a s w r o n g . CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: A n d y o u n e v e r g a v e t h e in f o r m a ti o n t o M s J a c k s o n ? N o I n e v e r g a v e th e m a n y i n f o r m a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. Page 112 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M s S a m b o i f w e c a n th e n p ic k i t u p a t p a r a g r a p h 8 3 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t a n d j u s t t e l l u s w h a t h a p p e n e d a f t e r y o u r m e e ti n g a t B u k h a r a R e s t a u r a n t w i t h M s J a c k s o n ? S o r r y t h a t ’s o n p a g e 24. MS SAMBO: O k a y, y o u w e r e a s k in g a b o u t w h ic h e le m e n t ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I’ m ju s t a s k in g y o u t o t e l l u s w h a t h a p p e n s n e x t, a f te r t h e m e e t in g w i t h M s J a c k s o n a t B u k h a r a ? MS SAMBO: O h o k a y, a lr i g h t. S o a f t e r t h a t m e e t in g a t B u k h a r a I r e c e i v e d a n i n v i t a ti o n t o a t t e n d a m e e ti n g n o w b y t h a t g r o u p fr o m t h e 10 B r o a d B a s e d B l a c k E c o n o m ic E m p o w e r m e n t s tr u c t u r e a n d th e m e e t in g w a s s c h e d u le d to t a k e p l a c e i n C a p e To w n f o r u s t o d is c u s s h o w w e ’ r e g o i n g t o r e s p o n d t o t h i s b i d . I c o u ld n ’ t tr a v e l t o C a p e To w n b u t r a th e r requested that, once they are together they can call me so that I join t h e m e e t in g in t h e f o r m o f a t e l e c o n fe r e n c e . D u r i n g th a t p h o n e c a l l M r B u r g e r s in f o r m e d m e t h a t t h e y w i ll u s e m y c o m p a n y d o c u m e n ts t o r e s p o n d o n th e b i d , s o w h e n th e b i d g o e s i n i t w il l s ti ll b e m e n ti o n e d a s A R & S R S Av i a ti o n , h o w e v e r I m u s t k n o w t h a t , o n c e w e g e t th e c o n tr a c t, t h a t s tr u c t u r e th a t w a s o n t h e t a b le w it h t h e n a m e s o f p e o p l e I d i d n ’ t k n o w w o u ld k ic k i n . s o I a c t u a l ly ta p e d th a t d is c u s s i o n b e c a u s e , 20 a lr e a d y a t t h a t ti m e I w a s a w a r e o f w h a t i s th e p la n s a n d t h e a c t iv i t ie s . I decided, one, I was with one of my employees and we decided to tape t h e d is c u s s i o n w i th a r e c o r d e r. S o M r B u r g e r s j u s t m e n t io n e d t h is i s w h a t w e ’r e g o i n g t o d o … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: Is t h i s t h e t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n o r is t h is n o w i n a m e e ti n g t h a t y o u d e c i d e d t o r e c o r d ? Page 113 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 MS SAMBO: I t is in t h e t e l e p h o n e d i s c u s s io n . CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: O k a y. I p u t M r B u r g e r s o n a s p e a k e r a n d [i n d is t in c t ] h a d t h e r e c o r d e r w it h h e r, s o w e r e c o r d e d t h e c o m m u n ic a ti o n . S o – a n d th e n t h a t ’s w h a t M r B u r g e r s m e a n t – i n d ic a t e d , I d i d n ’ t d i s p u t e , I j u s t s a i d o k a y a n d I a s k e d t o b e e x c u s e d b e c a u s e I w a s d r iv in g y e s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : MS SA MBO: A n d w h a t d id y o u d o w i th t h a t r e c o r d i n g ? T h a t r e c o r d i n g u n f o r tu n a te l y is o n e o f t h e th i n g s t h a t w e h a v e l o s t , it ’s s o m e t h i n g t h a t w e a r e s ti ll lo o k i n g f o r s o i f w e f in d t h e 10 r e c o r d i n g … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: W h ic h y o u m i g h t s t il l fi n d . If w e fi n d t h e r e c o r d i n g w e w i ll s u b m it i t to th e C o m m i s s i o n , S u m k a b e li e v e s t h a t w e d o w n lo a d e d i t t o o n e o f th e la p to p s , t h e r e c o r d i n g b u t in t h e l a p to p s t h a t I s ti ll h a v e , t h e r e ’s n o recording, so yes. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A lr i g h t a n d w h a t t h e n h a p p e n e d a ft e r y o u r teleconference which you recorded? MS SAMBO: 20 A f t e r th a t th e n t h a t’s – e x c u s e m e , c a n I r e f e r C h a ir to m y d o c u m e n t? CHAIRPERSON: MS SAMBO: Ye s . O k a y o n t h e 1 3 t h o f A u g u s t w e r e c e i v e d a n e m a il , w h e n I s a y w e , my s e l f a n d o th e r m e m b e r s o f t h e c o n s o r ti u m , w e r e c e iv e d a n e m a i l fr o m M s J a c k s o n f o r m a l ly in d i c a t in g t h a t A R w i ll b e r e s p o n d i n g t o t h e c o m p o n e n ts b i d t h a t [i n d i s t i n c t ] e m a i le d to t h e m d ir e c t ly a n d th e Page 114 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 e m a i l s o u g h t t o fo r m a l is e t h a t r e la t io n s h ip w i t h t h e c o n s o r t i a . The c o n s o r ti a , a t t h a t ti m e – w h e n I l o o k b a c k a t t h e d o c u m e n ts , t h e r e a r e t w o d i ffe r e n t n a m e s th a t w e r e u s e d , t h e r e w a s A fr ic a Av i a t i o n a n d l a te r is w a s c a ll e d D iz a Av i a ti o n , t h e c o n s o r t i a t h a t w a s f o r m e d . O n th e s a m e d a y I a ls o r e c e iv e d M s J a c k s o n ’s c a l l, a s k i n g m e i f I w o u l d b e a b l e to p h y s ic a lly g o a n d s u b m i t t h e t e n d e r d o c u m e n t w h e n i t ’s c o m p le t e d . T h e p la n w a s f o r t h e m t o w o r k o n t h e b id , e m a i l i t to m e a n d t h e n I w o u l d g o a n d p r i n t, b in d a n d s u b m i t . S o a t th a t ti m e I a g r e e d , h o w e v e r, b e f o r e A R s u b m i t te d t h e c o m p o n e n t b i d I c a l le d M s 10 J a c k s o n a n d r e q u e s te d th a t I w a n t t o b e e x c l u d e d fr o m t h is c o n tr a c t a n d t h e m a i n r e a s o n s w h y I w a n t e d t o b e e x c lu d e d fr o m t h e c o n tr a c t i s t h a t I w a s n o t c o m f o r ta b l e w i t h t h e c o n s o r ti a a s I h a d b e e n d is c u s s in g w i t h M s J a c k s o n a n d s e c o n d ly I d i d n ’ t l ik e t h e a t t i tu d e fr o m Mr R a f ie k B u r g e r s w h o w a s n o w i n s tr u c ti n g m e t h a t m y c o m p a n y d o c u m e n t w i ll b e u s e t o p a r t n e r a n d s u b m i t t h i s b i d a n d t h i r d l y b e c a u s e I r e a lis e d t h a t I h a v e i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t w o u l d p o t e n t i a ll y h a v e a b a d r e c o r d o n m y n a m e , I d e c id e d t h a t I w i ll n o t g iv e t h e m th e i n fo r m a t i o n a n d I w i ll n o t p a r t ic ip a t e o n th e b i d , s o I w a lk e d a w a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 20 A n d w h a t w a s t h e r e a c ti o n t o y o u w a l k i n g away? MS SAMBO: Sorry? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : MS SAMBO: W h a t w a s t h e r e a c ti o n … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . Fr o m M s J a c k s o n ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Fr o m M s J a c k s o n a n d A A R t o y o u w a lk in g away? Page 115 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 MS SA MBO: M s J a c k s o n c a l le d s e v e r a l t i m e s t h a t d a y, s h e s t il l in s is t e d t h a t I – i t w a s t h e f ir s t t i m e a f t e r I h a d i n d i c a t e d t h a t I a m w a lk in g a w a y, t h a t M s J a c k s o n o ff e r e d t h a t A R w il l p a y m e my c o n s u l t in g fe e . S o I s a i d t o M s J a c k s o n i t ’s t o o l a te I h a v e m a d e a d e c is i o n I w i ll n o t p a r ti c i p a t e , h o w e v e r, I w o u l d li k e u s t o g o b a c k t o th e d r a w i n g b o a r d , s it a r o u n d t h e ta b l e a n d l e t’s fi x t h is r e l a ti o n s h i p . F o r n o w, b e c a u s e t h e c o n t r a c t is o n l y f o r f iv e m o n th s , I w il l n o t h a v e m u c h t o l o s e , y o u c a n c o n t in u e w i t h y o u r c o n s o r ti a , I w i ll s t a n d b a c k b u t le t ’s s i t a r o u n d t h e t a b l e a n d a g r e e t o a g r e e o r a g r e e t o d is a g r e e . Th a t is 10 w h a t I p r o p o s e d t o M s J a c k s o n . T h e n M s J a c k s o n r e s p o n d e d t o s a y, i f I w a lk a w a y fr o m t h e fiv e - m o n t h c o n t r a c t , I m u s t k n o w t h a t t h e y w i ll n o t e v e n w o r k w i t h m e o n th e f iv e - y e a r c o n t r a c t , s o I s t il l c o n f ir m e d t h a t I’ m c h o o s i n g t o w a l k , s o I w a lk e d . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d d i d t h e i n f o , d id th e is s u e o f t h e in f o r m a ti o n o n th e fl a s h d is k e v e r a r is e a g a i n ? M S S A M B O : O n t h e p h o n e c a lls w h e n s e w a s o ff e r in g n o w m y c o n s u l t in g f e e , s h e w a s in s is t in g t o c a l l m e w i t h th e g u y s w h o w o r k o n t h e t e c h n i c a l p a r t o f t h e b i d , o n a c o n f e r e n c e c a l l s o t h a t I g iv e t h e m t h e i n f o r m a t i o n , t h e n I s a i d n o . S o t h a t w a s t h e e n d o f th a t d is c u s s io n 20 w i t h t h e m e m o r y s tic k . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A lr i g h t a n d l e t ’s p ic k i t p a r a g r a p h 9 0 o f t h e a ffi d a v i t a n d t e ll u s w h a t h a p p e n e d a f t e r y o u r e f u s e d t o g iv e th e m e m o r y s ti c k . MS SAMBO: Sorry? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Te ll u s w h a t h a p p e n e d a f t e r y o u d e c i d e d t o Page 116 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 w a lk a w a y a n d r e f u s e d t o p r o v i d e t h e m w i t h t h e i n fo r m a t i o n o n t h e m e m o r y s ti c k . M S S A M B O : N o , I d e c i d e d I d id n o t p a r ti c i p a t e o n t h e c o n tr a c t w i th t h e m , b u t I s ti ll s e n t e - m a i ls r e q u e s ti n g t o m e e t w i th t h e m w h e n th e y c o m e t o S o u t h - A fr ic a . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d d o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r th e b i d t h a t w a s s u b m i tt e d s ti ll c o n ta in e d y o u r C o m p a n y d o c u m e n ts ? MS SAMBO: I was in the dark u n ti l I r e c e iv e d a c a ll fr o m M r B a d e n h o u r s t , Mr E t ti e n n e B a d e n h o r s t. C a n I c o n f ir m th e n a m e a n d 10 surname? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A t p a r a g r a p h 9 6 y o u r e f e r to M r B a d e n h o r s t . M S S A M B O : Ye s M r E t t ie n n e B a d e n h o r s t f r o m E r n e s t a n d Yo u n g , r e q u e s t in g t o i n t e r v i e w m e , b e c a u s e E r n e s t a n d Yo u n g h a d b e e n a p p o i n t e d to in v e s ti g a t e v a r i o u s , t o d o a n i n t e r n a l i n v e s ti g a t i o n o f v a r io u s c o n tr a c t s w i t h i n S A A a s a w h o le . N o t S A AT o n l y. SAA as a w h o le . S o , my r e s p o n s e to h i m w a s I d o n ’ t h a v e a c o n tr a c t w i th S A A 20 o r S A AT, w h y w o u ld y o u w a n t to in t e r v ie w m e . T h e n h e s a i d my n a m e f e a t u r e o n t h e c o m p o n e n t s c o n tr a c t . T h e n I in d ic a t e d t h a t I d i d n o t b id o n t h e ir, b e c a u s e h e c a l l e d , w h e n h e c o n t a c t e d m e th e r e w a s n o t , t h e tender had closed but it had not been awarded. So, it was during the p r o c e s s a d j u d ic a ti o n o f th a t b i d . S o , h e r e q u e s te d th a t , i f I c o u l d c o m e t o S A A o ff ic e s f o r a n Page 117 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 in t e r v ie w, s o I a g r e e d . B u t t h is t i m e , b e c a u s e I a lw a y s g o a lo n e , I d e c i d e d I a m g o i n g t o t a k e o f my e m p lo y e e s . M is s S i b e k o , t o a t te n d t h e m e e ti n g w i t h m e . S o , I r e q u e s te d Because I was confused w h y d o th e y n e e d to in t e r v i e w m e . S o , w e a r r iv e d a t S A A H e i n tr o d u c e d h i m s e l f a g a in a s I h a v e in d i c a t e d . H e i n te r v i e w e d m e , a n d I g a v e t h e s ta t e m e n t a s I a m g iv in g t h e s t a te m e n t h e r e to th e C o m m i s s io n to t h e b e s t a b i li ty o f t h e m e m o r y I h a d a t th a t ti m e , a n d a t t h a t t i m e I s ti l l h a d th e r e c o r d i n g a s w e ll , w h ic h I h a v e i n d i c a t e d I h a v e , b u t I h a v e i n d ic a te d th a t I a m n o t s u r e i f 10 I s h o u l d g iv e i t to h i m , b e c a u s e I d i d n ’ t t e l l t h e o t h e r p a r ty t h a t I w a s r e c o r d i n g th e m . S o I d i d n o t g iv e th e r e c o r d i n g to E r n e s t a n d Yo u n g , b u t I s t il l h a d s m s o r W h a ts A p p c o m m u n ic a ti o n b e t w e e n m y s e l f a n d M is s J a c k s o n , a s k i n g t o b e r e l e a s e d fr o m t h e b i d a n d a l l t h a t . S o w h e n w e c o n c l u d e d o u r i n t e r v ie w, i t i s o n l y th e n th a t h e t o l d m e t h a t I a m b e i n g i n t e r v i e w e d b e c a u s e A A R d e c i d e d t o s ti ll p u t i n m y d o c u m e n t s , b e c a u s e t h e y a r e I n d e z a r, o r D e e z a r o r t h i s o th e r c o m p a n y d i d n o t h a v e a n y f o r m a li s e d d o c u m e n ts . They w o u ld have d is q u a li f ie d for not h a v in g the BEE c o m p o n e n t . S o , i t w a s t h e f ir s t t i m e I r e a l is e d t h a t A A R p r o c e e d e d t o 20 u s e my d o c u m e n t s w i th o u t m y k n o w l e d g e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u . A n d w e c a n t h e n g o to p a r a g r a p h 9 9 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it a n d if y o u c o u l d j u s t e x p la i n w h a t h a p p e n e d a f t e r y o u m e t w i t h Mr B a d e n h o r s t . M S S A M B O : O k a y p o s t th e m e e t in g t h a t I h a d w i t h M r B a d e n h o r s t , i t w a s a b o u t S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 5 . I w a s in v i t e d b y M is s J a c k s o n t o c o m e in Page 118 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 a n d d i s c u s s t h e B E E s tr u c tu r e i n p l a n n in g f o r t h e f iv e - y e a r c o n tr a c t . I w a s s u r p r is e d to b e in v i t e d a f te r I h a d w a l k e d a w a y fr o m . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : M is s J a c k s o n in v i t e d y o u ? M S S A M B O : M is s J a c k s o n i n v i t e d m e a n d s a i d th e r e w il l b e a m e e t i n g w i t h t h e m e m b e r s o f th e C o n s o r ti a t o d is c u s s a w a y f o r w a r d i n p la n n i n g f o r t h e f iv e - y e a r c o n t r a c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s th is th e f ir s t c o n t a c t o r c o m m u n ic a ti o n y o u w e r e h a v i n g w i th M is s J a c k s o n s in c e t h e c o n v e r s a t io n w h e r e s h e s a i d i f y o u w a lk a w a y y o u m u s t k n o w th a t t h e y w ill , t h e y w o u l d n o t w o r k w i t h y o u 10 o n t h e f iv e y e a r c o n tr a c t , o r t h e y h a d a b i t c o m m u n ic a ti o n i n - b e t w e e n ? M S S A M B O : I w o u ld h a v e to g o b a c k t o m y e - m a i ls a n d c h e c k . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e n o t s u r e ? M S S A M B O : I d o b e li e v e t h e r e w a s . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e c o m m u n ic a ti o n . M S S A M B O : C o m m u n ic a ti o n w h e r e I e x p r e s s e d m y g r i e v a n c e o f h o w t h e y m a n a g e d o r m i s m a n a g e d th e w h o l e p r o c e s s o f b r i n g i n g in n e w p a r t n e r s a n d f o r c i n g m e to b e p a r t o f t h a t . A n d t h e w h o le i s s u e a b o u t in f o r m a ti o n t h e y w a n t , b u t n o w t h e y a r e i n tr o d u c i n g t h e b r ib e r y a n d t h e 20 c o r r u p ti o n e l e m e n t . S o , I w a s n o t h a p p y a b o u t th a t . T h e r e i s a g r i e v a n c e th a t I had sent. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S S A M B O : Ye s . S o I i n d i c a t e d t o M is s J a c k s o n th a t t h e la s t ti m e w e s p o k e , t h e d is c u s s i o n w a s n o t in a c o r d i a l o r h a p p y m a n n e r, s o I w o u l d Page 119 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 lik e to m e e t w i t h h e r fir s t b e f o r e g o in g t o t h a t m e e ti n g . A t th a t t i m e , s h e h a d b o o k e d i n a t t h e I n t e r - C o n t in e n t a l H o t e l a t O R Ta m b o . S o , I w e n t in t h e r e , it w a s i n t h e m o r n i n g , I d o n ’ t h a v e t h e e x a c t d a t e , b u t i t w a s in S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 5 . I w e n t i n t h e r e , a s I w e n t in a t th e f o y e r, a s y o u a r e c o m i n g o r a t , w h a t d o y o u c a ll i t , a c o r r i d o r b u t i t h a s g o t , i t is a lo u n g e s o r t o f , I s a w M s J a c k s o n s i t ti n g w i t h Mr Ndzeku. T h a t I c o u l d r e c o g n is e b e c a u s e I k n e w h i m , a n d I w a s s u r p r is e d . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u w a n t to N d z e k u o r t h e s u r n a m e f o r t h e 10 tr a n s c r ip t io n . M S S A M B O : Ye s , i t i s N - d - z - e - k - u . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SAMBO: Mr Ndzeku. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s o k a y. M S S A M B O : S o I fo u n d M is s J a c k s o n s i t ti n g w i t h M r N d z e k u a t th e f o y e r a n d a s I c a m e i n , M r N d z e k u i m m e d ia t e ly s t o o d u p a n d i n a v e r y fl a m b o y a n t w a y, s a id , h i M i s s S a m b o , g o o d to s e e y o u . And he now tr i e d t o in tr o d u c e m e t o S h e r y l , a n d s a y S h e r y l t h is is M i s s S a m b o , s h e is o u r b r i g h t s t a r in a v i a ti o n . I f y o u t a lk a v i a ti o n is S o u t h - A fr ic a , y o u 20 w i ll h e a r t h e n a m e S ib o n g il e S a m b o . Yo u k n o w l ik e , b u t a t th a t ti m e I a m c o n f u s e d , I a m t r y in g t o p l a c e M r N d z e k o a n d M is s S h e r y l J a c k s o n to g e th e r, a n d b e f o r e I c o u ld e v e n r e s p o n d m u c h , I j u s t s m il e d a n d y o u k n o w. L is t e n t o th is s t a te m e n t . A n d i m m e d i a t e ly M r N d z e k o o ffe r e d t o e x p l a i n w h y h e is w i th Page 120 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 M is s J a c k s o n a n d h e i n d ic a te d t o m e t h a t h e m e t M is s J a c k s o n o n a fl ig h t f r o m s o m e w h e r e i n t h e C o n t in e n t , i n o u r C o n ti n e n t . A fr ic a n C o n ti n e n t . I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r t h e C o u n tr y, b u t w h e n t h e y m e t , th e y w e r e in tr o d u c e d to e a c h o t h e r b y a c o m m o n fr ie n d w h o w a s a n A m b a s s a d o r. I c a n ’ t r e c a ll w h i c h C o u n tr y h e m e n t i o n e d , a n d t h e y w a n t to i m p o r t a n d e x p o r t c o ffe e . B a s ic a ll y th a t i s w h a t h e m e n t io n e d a n d h e o ffe r e d t o , a n d h e s a i d g o o d - b y e t o S h e r y l a n d t h e y w e r e g o i n g to s e e o th e r l a t e r, a n d h e l e f t b e c a u s e I h a d a m e e ti n g w i t h M is s J a c k s o n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d h o w d i d y o u k n o w Mr N d z e k o f r o m 10 before? M S S A M B O : M r N d z e k o w a s in tr o d u c e d t o m e b y a fr i e n d w h o s a id , I k n o w s o m e b o d y e ls e w h o i s i n a v ia t io n . H e is o n e o f t h e s h a r e h o ld e r s a t S w is s p o r t , s o I w o u l d li k e t o in tr o d u c e t h e t w o o f y o u . So, I was in tr o d u c e d to M r N d z e k u a n d t h a t w a s y e a r s b e f o r e th e c o m p o n e n ts b i d . T h a t is w h y I k n o w h i m . C H A I R P E R S O N : L e ts g e t to y o u r m e e t in g w i t h M is s J a c k s o n . What happened? M S S A M B O : A t t h e m e e ti n g w i t h M i s s J a c k s o n , w e b o th v e n t e d o u t th e p r e v i o u s e x p e r ie n c e t h a t w e h a d , a n d I a s k e d M is s J a c k s o n i f 20 they w o u ld s til l c o n s id e r w o r k in g w i t h m e w h e n t h e f iv e y e a r c o n tr a c t c o m e s o u t , a n d s h e i n d i c a t e d t h a t t h e p e o p l e a t A A R w e r e e x tr e m e l y d is a p p o in t e d w i th m e d r o p p in g th e m a t th e l a s t m i n u t e , t h e w a y I d i d . S o , a s s h e w a s s i tt i n g th e r e a t th a t t i m e s h e c a n n o t c o n f ir m w h e t h e r I w o u l d s t il l w o r k w i t h th e m o r n o t . B u t s h e s t il l i n v i te d m e i n t o t h e m e e ti n g t h a t s h e p l a n n e d t o h a v e w i th t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e Page 121 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 C o n s o r t ia a n d M is s M d l u l w a w a s g o i n g t o b e a t t h e m e e t i n g a s w e ll . S o th a t w a s t h e d is c u s s i o n t h a t I h a d w i th M is s J a c k s o n . S h e s a i d , l e ts s e e . L e t ’s h a v e a d i s c u s s io n , w e w i ll ta k e i t fr o m t h e r e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d d id y o u t h e n g o i n t o t h e m e e t in g w i t h t h e r e s t o f t h e C o n s o r ti a ? M S S A M B O : Ye s , I d id . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d te ll u s a b o u t t h a t m e e ti n g . M S S A M B O : I n t h a t m e e t in g i t w a s b r ie f . W e i n t r o d u c e d o u r s e lv e s . T h e p e o p l e t h a t I r e m e m b e r w e r e in th e r o o m w a s M i s s K u k i M d l u l w a 10 w h ic h w a s r e f e r r e d t o a s “ i h h a s h i ” p r e v i o u s ly. And it was me r e p r e s e n ti n g S A R S Av i a ti o n , a n d i t w a s A d v o c a t e K e l le r m a n w h o w a s r e p r e s e n ti n g th e C o n s o r ti a . S h e w a s w o r k i n g w i t h M r R a fi q u e B a g u s . A t t h a t m e e ti n g i t w a s v e r y s tr a i g h t f o r w a r d . M i s s M d lu lw a i n d ic a te d t h a t s h e w a s t h e r e t o c o m e a n d te ll A A R t h a t h e r p e o p l e t h a t s h e is r e p r e s e n ti n g w h ic h i s M is s K w in a n a a n d h e r p e o p l e a t S A AT w a n ts t h e h u n d r e d m i ll io n fr o m A A R t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e g e t t h e c o n tr a c t . A n d t h e n M is s M d l u l w a a ls o c o n f ir m e d t h a t t h e h u n d r e d m il li o n e x c lu d e a n y o n e e ls e b u t f o r Ya k h e K w i n a n a a n d h e r p e o p l e a t S A AT. 20 A n d s h e a ls o i n d i c a t e d t h a t S ib o n g il e w e f o u n d y o u h e r e w i t h A A R , y o u w i ll c o n ti n u e y o u r n e g o ti a ti o n s d i r e c t ly w i t h A A R w h i c h I a g r e e d to , a n d th e n M s J a c k s o n w a n t e d t o k n o w fr o m A d v o c a t e K e ll e r m a n if t h e y a ls o h a v e a n a d v a n c e d r e q u ir e m e n t , a n d M is s K e ll e r m a n w a s v e r y c l e a r, t h a t n o t h e y d o n ’ t w a n t a n y c a s h u p fr o n t b u t t h e y s e e th is a s a l o n g te r m r e l a ti o n s h i p th a t t h e y c a n b u i ld w i t h A A R . Page 122 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 T h a t is w h a t I r e m e m b e r a t t h a t m e e t in g . CHAIRPERSON: Just remind me. Who did, whom did Ms Kellerman represent? M S S A M B O : M r R a fi q u e b r o t h e r s a n d t h e m e m b e r s o f th a t C o n s o r ti a . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W a s s h e p a r t o f t h e C o n s o r ti u m o r w a s s h e o n ly a r e p r e s e n ta t iv e o f , a la w y e r f o r th e C o n s o r t i u m ? M S S A M B O : M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is t h a t s h e w a s th e la w y e r, b u t s h e w a s a l lo c a t e d s h a r e s , b u t c a n w e j u s t r e f e r t o t h e s t r u c t u r e . Do we have it in the bundle. 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W e d o h a v e th e s tr u c t u r e is a t p a g e 2 3 4 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e l l i f s h e t e l ls m e , o r y o u t e l l m e w h a t h e r c a p a c i ty w a s , t h a t w o u l d d o . W a s s h e p a r t o f t h e C o n s o r t i u m a s w e ll ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a i r I a m n o t s u r e i f s h e w a s a s h a r e h o l d e r o f t h e C o n s o r ti u m . If y o u tu r n t o 2 3 5 i t l is t s t h e s h a r e h o ld e r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S h e i s n o t l is te d a s a s h a r e h o l d e r i n MS SAMBO: No, she is not. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : In h e r p e r s o n a l c a p a c i ty o r a s a m e m b e r . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : As a m e m b e r o f th is o r g a n i s a t io n s . Th is c o m p a n y. C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t . M S S A M B O : Ye s , n o w i s n o t . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a t t h e m e e ti n g d i d s h e s a y a n y th in g t o i n d ic a t e Page 123 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 h o w s h e c a m e i n t o th e m e e t in g o r d i d s h e s i m p l y s a y s h e w a s r e p r e s e n ti n g th e C o n s o r ti u m ? M S S A M B O : S h e s a i d s h e w a s r e p r e s e n t i n g t h e C o n s o r ti u m . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S S A M B O : N o , s h e is a c tu a lly a s h a r e h o l d e r. I f y o u lo o k a t p a g e 2 3 5 . T h e s e c o n d l a s t p o i n t, i t r e f e r s to Z K C o n s u l t in g S e r v ic e s h e l d b y Z a r i n a K e l le r m a n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y s o s h e w a s p a r t o f t h e C o n s o r t iu m ? 10 M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d I s e e i n th e s h a r e h o ld i n g s tr u c t u r e , Z K C o n s u lt i n g h e l d 8 .3 3 p e r c e n t o f Mz a n s i A v ia t io n W o m a n ’s C o n s o r ti u m . W h i c h in t u r n h e l d 3 3 . 3 3 p e r c e n t o f th e .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o , M is s K w i n a n a w a s n o t p a r t o f th e C o n s o r t i u m , b u t a s y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h e p o s i ti o n M is s M d l u lw a r e p r e s e n te d h e r a t t h is m e e ti n g . M S S A M B O : Ye s , M is s M d l u l w a y e s r e p r e s e n te d M is s Y a k h e K w i n a n a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o h . M S S A M B O : S h e w a s n o t p a r t o f t h e C o n s o r ti u m . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d d id M i s s M d l u l w a m a d e i t c le a r t h a t w a s a c ti n g o n b e h a l f o f K w in a n a . M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d th e r e q u e s t f o r a h u n d r e d m il li o n r a n d Page 124 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 p a y m e n t , d i d s h e m a k e t h a t o p e n ly to t h e w h o le m e e ti n g ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s M is s J a c k s o n ’s r e s p o n s e t o t h i s r e q u e s t f o r t h e p a y m e n t o f h u n d r e d m il li o n r a n d ? M S S A M B O : S h e s a i d s h e d o e s n ’ t h a v e t h e a u t h o r i ty to a p p r o v e a n y th in g , s h e w o u l d g o b a c k a n d d is c u s s i t w i t h h e r p r i n c ip a ls . C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s s h e th e o n ly p e r s o n r e p r e s e n ti n g A A R t h e r e ? M S S A M B O : A s f a r a s I r e m e m b e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d h o w d i d o th e r p e o p l e i n th e m e e ti n g r e a c t? M S S A M B O : M is s K e ll e r m a n w a s v e r y c l e a r th a t t h e y d o n ’ t w a n t a n y cash up front. T h e y w a n t t o h a v e a l o n g - la s ti n g w o r k i n g r e la t io n s h ip w i t h A A R . I w a s o n t h e s a m e b o a t th a t , I h a v e b e e n A A R a n y w a y s o I w o u ld lik e to c o n ti n u e w o r k in g w i t h A A R a s a n in d e p e n d e n t c o m p a n y. C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d M i s s M d l u l w a s a y w h a t th e h u n d r e d m il li o n r a n d w a s g o i n g to b e f o r. MS SAMBO: No, she did not. C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d a n y b o d y a s k , d i d M is s J a c k s o n a s k e d h e r w h a t 20 w o u ld t h is h u n d r e d m ill i o n r a n d b e f o r ? M S S A M B O : I f y o u , s o r r y C h a ir p e r s o n s h e w a s v e r y c le a r th a t s h e is r e p r e s e n ti n g Mis s Ya k h e Kw in a n a a n d Mis s Ya k h e Kw in a n a , th a t is th a t a mo u n t th a t s h e w a n ts to ma k e s u r e th a t AA R g e ts th e c o n tr a c t. C H A IR PER SO N: D id s h e s ay th a t a t th e me e tin g ? MS SA MB O : Sh e s a id th a t a t th e me e tin g y e s . Page 125 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. O k a y. Th a n k y o u . A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : Mis s Sa mb o w e c a n th e n tu r n to th e , to w h a t y o u d e sc r ibe a t th e fo u r th b id . MS SA MB O : Th e ? A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : Th e fo u r th SAAT b id . Th a t is o n p a g e 3 3 . MS SA MB O : Pa g e ? A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : Pa g e 3 3 . Pa r a g r a p h 11 3 . MS SA MB O : So r r y I w a s p a g in g th e a n n e x ur e s 3 3 . Pa g e 3 3 . C H A IR PER SO N: O f y o u r a ffid a v it. Pa g e 3 3 o f y o u r a ffid a v it. 10 MS SA MB O : Ye s , I a m g o in g th e r e . O k a y. A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : An d y o u d e a l th e r e w ith w h a t y o u d e s cr ib e a s th e fo u r th SA AT b id . C a n y o u d e s c r ibe th is te n d e r fo r u s ? C H A IR PER SO N: L e ts ju s t fin a lis e o n th e fiv e mo n th o n e . Be c a us e I a m n o t s u r e I k n o w w ha t u ltima te ly h a p p e n e d to th a t te n d e r. Th e fiv e mo n th one. Yo u w e r e n o t in te r e s te d in it . Yo u to ld Mis s J a c k s o n a n d y ou d e c id e d to w a lk aw a y. MS SA MB O : Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: D o y o u k n o w w h e th er th e y u ltima te ly g o t th e fiv e - mo n th te n d e r. Th a t is AAR . 20 MS SA MB O : H e y I w a s n o lon g e r pa r t o f, o f th a t c o n tr a c t s o I d id n ’t h a v e a n y fo r ma l c o mmu n ic a tio n in d ic a tin g w he th e r th e y g o t th e y g o t th e c o n tr ac t o r n o t b u t . ..[ in te r v e n e s ]. C H A IR PER SO N: To th is d a y y o u d o n ’t k n ow. MS SA MB O : W h a t I k n o w b y n ow. N o w, a fte r e ffe c t is th a t c o n tr a c t th a t c o n tr ac t w a s a ls o n o t a w ar d e d to an y, o h a s fa r as I k no w it w as n o t Page 126 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 a w a r de d to a ny o n e o r it d id n ’t g e t a ny fe ed b a ck w h e th er it w as a wa r d e d to a n y o n e . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . MS SA MB O : Th a t o n e I d o n ’t k n o w. C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u d o n ’t k n o w. MS SA MB O : I d o n ’t k n o w. I d o n ’t k n o w. C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. Alr ig h t. A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : Mis s Sa mb o c an y o u th e n te ll u s wh a t th e fo u r th te n d e r w a s ? 10 MS SA MB O : Th e fo u r th te n d e r w as th e comp o n e n ts b id a g a in , a n d th is time a r o u n d it w a s th e fu ll fiv e y e a r c o n tr a c t a n d it w a s a n o p e n te n d e r. W h e n I s aw th is te n d er, a s us u a l I d o wn lo a de d it, s e n t it to Ms J a c ks o n a t AAR a n d r e q u e s te d th a t w e w o rk to g e th e r on th e b o d . C H A IR PER SO N: N o w yo u s a id e a r lier o n th a t w h e n y o u as k ed h e r a t th e la s t me e tin g o r I th in k y o u , Mr N d z e k o , w h er e y o u me t Mr N d z ek o . W h e n y o u a sk e d h e r wh e th e r th e y w ou ld , th e y c ou ld s till w o r k w ith y o u o n th e fiv e y e ar c on tr a c t sh e sa id s he w as n o t sur e b ec a u se o th e r p e o p le w e re v e ry d is a p po in te d , th e fa c t th a t y o u d r o p p e d o u t w h e n th e y n e e d e d y ou . H a d s h e in th e me a n time c o me b a c k to y o u , to s a y w h e th e r th e y 20 w e r e p r ep a r ed to w o r k w ith y o u o n th e fiv e y e a r c o n tr ac t. By th e ti me th is te n d e r w a s a dv e r tise d ? MS SA MB O : N o l. N o th e r e w a s n o d isc u ss io n s , s o ...[in te r v e n e s ]. C H A IR PER SO N: J a . MS SA MB O : W h e n I s a w th e te n d e r, I ju s t d o w n lo a de d it. Fo r w a r d e d it to th e m. Page 127 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 C H A IR PER SO N: J a . MS SA MB O : As u s u a l a s k th e m th a t w e r e s p o n d ...[in te r v e n e s ]. C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. MS SA MB O : To th e b id to g e th e r. Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : An d w h a t w a s the r e s p o ns e to th a t? MS SA MB O : Th e r e w a s n o r e s po n s e a t a ll. A D V MIC H A EL MB IK IWA : An d te ll u s w h a t h a p p e n e d a fte r th e R FP w a s is s u e d . Pic k in g u p fr o m p a r ag r a p h 114 . 10 MS SA MB O : Th e r e a fte r I r e c e iv e d a ca ll fr o m Mis s Me me la s ug g es tin g th a t th e C h a ir p e r so n , M is s Y a k h e K w i n a n a w a n te d to me e t w ith me a g a in a n d th e y s u g g es te d w e me e t a t th e E mp e r o rs Pa la c e , b e c a u se Mis s Me me la w a s a t w or k , th e n s he q u ick ly p op in to th e me e tin g a n d th e n g o b a c k to w o rk . I a g r e e d to th a t. We me t a t th e Sp u r. I th in k it is c a lle d th e Sp u r R a nc h , G o ld R u sh Sp u r Ste a k R a nc h in s id e Emp e r o rs Pa la c e . At th a t me e tin g M is s Kw in a n a w a n te d to k n o w if I h a v e r e s o lv e d my is s ue s w ith AAR , b e c a u s e a t th a t ti me th e y k n e w th a t I w a lk e d a w a y fr o m th e fiv e mo n th s c on tr a c t, b e ca u s e I h a d b ee n ta lk ing to Mis s Me me la . Ye s . So , 20 a t th a t me e tin g Mis s Kw in a n a a ls o w a n te d to ... [in te r v e n e s ]. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I j u s t m e n t io n t h i s a n d Mr M b i k i w a y o u c a n , w e l l y o u c a n t a k e i t f u r t h e r i f y o u w a n t t o t a k e i t f u r th e r a n d M i s s S a m b o y o u c a n c o m m e n t if y o u w a n t to c o m m e n t . I t is p o s s i b l e th a t s h e m ig h t s a y t h a t s h e a s k e d a b o u t y o u r r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h t h e m b e c a u s e o n h e r v e r s i o n y o u h a d to ld h e r a t t h e Page 128 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 P r o t e a , w a s i t t h e P r o t e a H o te l m e e t i n g ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t y o u r p r o b le m s w i t h t h e m a n d a s k i n g h e r t o in t e r v e n e , o r th e m t o i n te r v e n e . I a m ju s t s a y i n g s h e m i g h t s a y t h a t i s w h y s h e a s k e d , b e c a u s e y o u h a d to l d h e r, n o t b e c a u s e s h e h a d h a d h e a r d fr o m M i s s M e m e la a b o u t y o u r p r o b l e ms w it h th e m M S S A M B O : I w o u ld d is p u t e w it h h e r i n r e s p o n s e , b e c a u s e a t t h a t t i m e I d o n ’ t th i n k I h a d w a l k e d a w a y fr o m t h e b i d . S o y e s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : I i n t e r r u p te d y o u . Yo u c a n c o n ti n u e . M S S A M B O : Ye s . S o a t th a t m e e t i n g M is s K w in a n a w a n t e d t o k n o w t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p w it h my s e l f a n d A A R , i f i t w a s s ti ll i n t a c t , a n d a ls o w a n t e d t o k n o w i f I h a v e s e e n Mr N d z e k o w i t h M is s J a c k s o n b e fo r e t h i s f o u r t h b i d w a s a d v e r tis e d . I h a v e b e e n d is c u s s i n g w i t h M is s M e m e l a a s o f t e n . Ve r y o ft e n a b o u t t h e a c t iv it i e s o f t h e A A R , o f m y r e l a ti o n s h i p w i th A A R s o I assumed that she would be p r iv y to that i n f o r m a t io n through M is s M e m e l a . A n d w h e n I a m w i t h M is s M e m e l a o r w h e n I s p e a k t o M i s s 20 M e m e l a I w o u l d e x p r e s s t h e d is a p p o i n t m e n t i n h o w A A R h a s tr e a t e d m e in t h e w h o l e p r o c e s s , a n d a t th is m e e ti n g M is s K w i n a n a s a id s h e c o u l d , b e c a u s e a t t h a t ti m e I w a s t h e n t o l d t h a t A A R is p a r tn e r in g w i t h , is p a r t n e r i n g , M i s s M e m e l a h a d t o l d m e t h a t A A R i s p a r tn e r in g w i th M r N d z e k o c o m p a n y. J N Av i a ti o n . A n d i t i s t h e n w h e n I r e a l is e d w h y M r N d z e k o m e t w i t h Page 129 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 M is s J a c k s o n i n S e p t e m b e r a t t h e I n te r - C o n ti n e n t a l H o t e l . S o , i t c o n fi r m e d , th is m e e ti n g c o n fir m e d th a t t h e y w e r e a l r e a d y d is c u s s in g a p o s s i b l e p a r t n e r s h i p f o r t h e f i v e - y e a r c o n t r a c t. Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: What had happened in the meantime to the C o n s o r t iu m t h a t w a s le d b y Mr M o r a i ? M S S A M B O : I t d is a p p e a r e d . I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u k n o w w h e n a b o u t i t d is a p p e a r e d o r d i d it d is a p p e a r w h e n t h e t h ir d t e n d e r w a s w i th d r a w n o r c a n c e ll e d w h e n t h e y d i d n ’ t g e t th a t te n d e r m a y b e . Yo u d o n ’t k n o w. 10 M S S A M B O : I h a v e n o t h e a r d o f t h e m s in c e t h e t h ir d b id y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b y t h e ti m e y o u s a w M r N d z e k o w i th M is s J a c k s o n y o u h a d n o t . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] . M S S A M B O : N o o n t h a t p a r tic u la r d a y w h e n I s a w M is s J a c k s o n a n d . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr N d z e k o . M S S A M B O : T h a t is w h e n th e r e w a s t h a t m e e t in g w h e r e M is s K u k i M d lu l w a w a s , a n d A d v o c a t e K e l l e r m a n w a s a n d my s e l f . That was the la s t ti m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e C o n s o r t i u m w a s s ti ll in p l a c e a t t h e ti m e . 20 M S S A M B O : A t t h a t ti m e . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SAMBO: It was. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S S A M B O : Ye s , s o r r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 130 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 M S S A M B O : I j u s t s a y ja . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d t e ll u s w h a t h a p p e n e d a ft e r y o u r m e e ti n g w i t h M is s K w i n a n a a n d M i s s M e m e la a t t h e S p u r a t E m p e r o r s P a la c e . M S S A M B O : A t t h a t m e e ti n g i t c a m e a c r o s s a s i f M is s K w i n a n a is n o w d r i v i n g n o w, i t w a s m o r e li k e s h e is c o n tr o l n o w o f w h o m u s t u l ti m a t e l y p a r t n e r w i th A A R . B e c a u s e a t t h e m e e t in g s h e c a l le d M is s J a c k s o n t o fi n d o u t i f t h e y c o u ld d r o p Mr N d z e k o a n d r e v i v e m y r e la t io n s h ip w i t h , w i t h A A R . B u t t h e r e w a s n o c o n c l u s io n . T h e r e w a s n o c o n c l u s i o n o n 10 t h a t te l e p h o n e c a l l , a n d I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r t h e o t h e r d e ta il s o f t h a t m e e ti n g , b u t M i s s K w i n a n a w a n t e d t o k n o w i f I k n o w M r N d z e k o . B e c a u s e I h a d m e n ti o n e d t o M is s M e m e l a in o u r in f o r m a l d is c u s s io n s t h a t I k n o w M r N d z e k o a n d I k n o w h i m r u n n i n g a f u e l o r p e tr o le u m c o m p a n y b e c a u s e h e h a d a n a g e n c y w i th E N I p e tr o l e u m c o m p a n y f r o m S p a in . A n d I k n o w h i m s o t h e y w a n t e d t o k n o w w h a t is i t t h a t I k n o w a b o u t h i m a n d I to l d t h e m t h e y c a n G o o g l e Mr N d z e k u ’s in f o r m a ti o n is o n G o o g l e s o y e s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I f w e c a n t h e n p ic k i t u p a t p a r a g r a p h 11 7 a n d te ll u s w h a t h a p p e n e d n e x t . 20 M S S A M B O : O k a y. S o , i n J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 M s M e m e l a c o n t a c t e d m e t h a t s h e w a n t e d t o h a v e a m e e ti n g w i t h m e . S h e h a s g o t i n f o r m a ti o n r e g a r d in g th e o u t c o m e o f t h e b i d . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e 4 t h b id . MS SA MBO: T h e 4 t h b i d w h ic h s h e a ls o k n e w t h a t I d id n o t s u b m i t b e c a u s e I c o u l d n o t g e t a p a r t n e r t o w i th t e c h n ic a l e x p e r t is e t o s u b m i t Page 131 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 t h e b i d w it h . S o , I m e t w i t h A d v o c a t e M e m e la i n Al b e r t o n b e c a u s e s h e liv e s in A lb e r t o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a t is t h e s a m e M e m e l a y o u h a v e b e e n r e f e r r in g t o throughout your evidence. M S S A M B O : Ye s , th a t i s t h e s a m e M e m e l a t h a t I a m r e f e r r i n g t o . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S S A M B O : A n d s h e . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) CHAIRPERSON: Yo u s a y y o u m e t w i t h h e r t h is ti m e a r o u n d w h e r e , where did you meet? 10 M S S A M B O : W e m e t a t t h e M a x is r e s ta u r a n t. C H A I R P E R S O N : In A lb e r t o n . M S S A M B O : I n A l b e r to n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S A M B O : I m i g h t h a v e t h e s e q u e n c e o f e v e n ts . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m i g h t b e g e t t in g th a t w r o n g . M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y b u t a t s o m e s ta g e y o u m e t w it h h e r i n A l b e r to n . M S S A M B O : Ye s , a t s o m e s t a g e I m e t w it h h e r in A l b e r t o n . A n d s h e in d i c a t e d t o m e th a t t h e b i d w a s a w a r d e d t o A A R w i t h J M Av ia t io n . S o , 20 I w a s n o t- I d i d n o t t a k e th e n e w s v e r y w e l l. I a c t u a ll y b r o k e d o w n . I li te r a ll y b r o k e d o w n s o b a d ly th a t i t s e e m e d li k e I w a s t o l d t h e n e w s t h a t a v e r y c l o s e f a m i ly m e m b e r h a d p a s s e d a w a y. It cut so deep in s i d e m e . I c o u l d n o t h i d e i t . P e o p l e a t t h e r e s t a u r a n t w e r e l o o k in g a t me, why am I crying so hard. A n d t h e r e a s o n w h y I w a s c r y i n g is t h e r e a l is a ti o n o f I w o u l d s a y Page 132 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 f e e li n g a n d k n o w in g t h a t I h a v e r e a lly b e e n s t a b b e d a t t h e b a c k w o r k i n g s o h a r d , p u t ti n g i n a ll m y e ffo r t s a n d f i n a n c i a l r e s o u r c e s and human r e s o u r c e s a n d e v e r y t h in g a n d i n t r o d u c i n g A A R a n d g o i n g a l l o u t f o r A A R a n d th e n n e x t t h in g s o m e b o d y e ls e j u s t c o m e i n l ik e th a t a n d t h e y a r e a w a r d e d a 1 .3 b i ll i o n r a n d c o n tr a c t th a t I w o r k e d f o r. C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h a t t h e v a lu e o f t h e te n d e r ? MS SAMBO: T h a t i s t h e v a l u e o f th e t e n d e r th a t Ms M e m e l a h a d in d i c a t e d to m e w h e n s h e t o l d m e i t w a s a w a r d e d a n d t h e v a l u e w a s 1 . 2 b i ll io n . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S A M B O : Ye s . S o , a t t h a t t i m e M s M e m e l a ju s t r e a li s e d a l s o w h a t she has done. I d o n o t t h i n k s h e e x p e c t e d th a t I w o u l d r e a c t in th a t w a y a n d s h e b e c a m e v e r y d e f e n s iv e i n th a t I w a s n o w v e r y h a r d o n h e r w a n ti n g to k n o w w h a t r e a l ly h a p p e n e d . p a r t n e r w i th A A R ? H o w d i d Mr N d z e k u g e t to A n d th a t is w h e n s h e in d i c a t e d t o m e t h a t M s K w in a n a in tr o d u c e d M r N d z e k u t o h e r a n d s h e a l s o a s k e d h e r to a s s is t M r N d z e k u i n p r e p a r i n g th e b i d . . . ( in t e r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o is th e s h e , w h o is th e h e r n o w ? M S S A M B O : O h , I a m s o r r y. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o is M s K w i n a n a ? W h o is M s M e m e la ? M S S A M B O : M s K w in a n a th e c h a ir p e r s o n o f S A A Te c h n i c a l r e q u e s t e d M s M e m e l a t h e H e a d o f Pr o c u r e m e n t t h e S o u th A f r ic a n A i r w a y s t o a s s is t M r N d z e k u f r o m J M Av ia t io n i n p r e p a r i n g fo r t h e s u b m is s io n o f the bid. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h i s w a s - t h is y o u w e r e t o l d b y M s M e m e l a a t Page 133 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 t h is m e e t in g a t y o u r s e c o n d m e e ti n g t h a t y o u h a v e t o l d m e a b o u t i n Alberton. M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . L e t u s j u s t g o b a c k a li t t le b i t . T h a t m e e ti n g , w h o r e q u e s te d t h a t t h e t w o o f y o u h a v e a m e e ti n g ? W a s i t M s M e m e l a or yourself? M S S A M B O : M s M e m e la , s h e w a n te d to b r e a k t h e n e w s to m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s h e w o u ld h a v e k n o w n t h a t y o u h a d n o t b e e n p a r t o f t h o s e w h o p u t i n a b i d . Yo u d i d n o t p u t in a b id . 10 M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h y w o u ld s h e h a v e w a n t e d t o h a v e a m e e ti n g t o b r e a k t h e n e w s to y o u ? MS SAMBO: B e c a u s e s h e k n e w h o w h a r d a n d h o w m u c h I r e a ll y w a n t e d t h i s c o m p o n e n t s b u s in e s s . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is p a r tic u la r j o b . M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MS SAMBO: A n d b e c a u s e w e h a v e d e v e l o p e d a fr ie n d s h i p i n t h e process. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S A M B O : S o , w e w e r e t a l k i n g a b o u t a n y t h i n g a n d e v e r y th in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. M S S A M B O : S o , s h e f e lt t h a t- s h e fe l t s h e n e e d e d to t e l l m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e n e e d e d t o te ll y o u . M S S A M B O : B e f o r e I c o u l d h e a r it o n t h e n e w s . Page 134 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: S o , it c o n ti n u e s . S o , s h e w a s s u r p r i s e d th a t y o u r e a c te d t o t h i s n e w s th e w a y y o u d i d . Yo u c r i e d a n d s o o n . M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , a n d w h a t d id s h e s a y ? Yo u s a i d s h e b e c a m e defensive. What did she say? M S S A M B O : J a . Ye s C h a ir, b e c a u s e n o w I w a s q u e s t io n i n g h e r r o l e i n a l l t h is . 10 T h e n t h a t is w h e n s h e in d ic a t e d t h a t M s Ya k h e K w i n a n a th e c h a ir p e r s o n o f S A A Te c h n ic a l h a d r e q u e s t e d h e r t o a s s i s t M r N d z e k u i n p r e p a r in g fo r t h e b id a n d f o r th e b i d s u b m i s s i o n . A n d a ls o , s h e to l d m e t h a t M r N d z e k u a ls o r e q u e s te d h e r b e c a u s e s h e is a n a d v o c a te b y p r o f e s s i o n , a s k e d h e r t o a s s is t in t h e ir j o in t v e n t u r e - th e j o in t v e n t u r e b e t w e e n J M Av i a ti o n a n d A A R C o r p o r a ti o n . S o , t o p r o v e w h a t s h e w a s t e ll i n g m e t h e n s h e e m a il e d m e th e e m a il s th a t I a m n o w t a l k i n g a b o u t on page 34. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e e m a il w a s t o p r o v e w h a t ? M S S A M B O : To p r o v e to m e t h a t s h e w a s a s s is ti n g . . . ( in t e r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr N d z e k u . 20 M S S A M B O : T h a t s h e a s s is t e d , y e s , M r N d z e k u . S h e in i ti a l ly s e n t i n t h e j o i n t- t h e d r a f t j o i n t v e n t u r e a g r e e m e n t w h ic h w a s s e n t t o h e r t o a s s is t a n d t h a t d o c u m e n t a ti o n . A n d t h e n l a te r o n s h e a ls o fo r w a r d e d a tr a i l o f e m a il s th a t w e r e g o i n g f o r th b e tw e e n - b a c k a n d fo r t h b e tw e e n A A R , J M Av i a ti o n a n d h e r. S o , s h e e m a il e d t o m e th a t tr a i l o f e m a i ls . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n o w a f te r t h e m e e t in g ? A f te r t h e m e e t i n g in Page 135 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 w h ic h s h e b r o k e th e n e w s t o y o u . M S S A M B O : I w o u ld h a v e t o c o n f ir m t h e e x a c t . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) CHAIRPERSON: Sequence. MS SAMBO: Sequence yes. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, b u t a t s o m e s t a g e . MS SA MBO: Ye s , t h is i s th e a r e a w h e r e t h e s e q u e n c e is . . . ( in t e r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : Is p r o b l e m a t ic . MS SAMBO: 10 I s p r o b le m a t ic i n th a t t h e c o n te n t is c o r r e c t b u t t h e s e q u e n c e c o u l d b e d is jo in t e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir, i t m a y a s s is t i f w e a c t u a l ly g o t o t h e e m a i ls . C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s g o to t h e e m a ils y e s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I f w e c a n g o to p a g e 3 6 7 . M s S a m b o w h o i s t h a t e m a i l i n t h e m id d le o f t h e p a g e fr o m ? MS SAMBO: T h is w a s fr o m M s N o n ts a s a M e m e l a d a t e d t h e 2 3 r d o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 a n d i t w a s s e n t t o my iC l o u d a c c o u n t . 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : O k a y a n d t h e n t h e e m a i l th a t s h e is f o r w a r d in g to y o u , w h o is t h a t fr o m ? M S S A M B O : T h e e m a il s u b je c t w a s t h e d r a f t p r o p o s a l a n d M s M e m e la h a d r e c e i v e d i t o n th e 1 4 t h o f J a n u a r y fr o m M s K h o s i S o k h u l u fr o m J M Av i a ti o n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d c a n y o u r e a d t h e c o n t e n d o f t h e e m a il ? Page 136 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 MS SA MBO: H i c o z , s o h e r e is t h e l a t e s t p r o p o s a l . Please let me k n o w i f i t is a c c e p ta b le . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d i f w e c a n t u r n . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) CHAIRPERSON: O r m a y b e s h e c a n r e a d t h e M s S o k h u l u ’s e m a i l address there into the record. J u s t r e a d t h a t e m a il a d d r e s s fr o m M s S o k h u l u i t i n d i c a t e s t h e - h e r c o n n e c ti o n w i t h t h e J M Av i a ti o n e n ti ty. M S S A M B O : T h e e m a i l a d d r e s s i s k h o s i @ j m a v i a v t io n s a .c o m C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. M S S A M B O : Ye s . 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d i f y o u tu r n o v e r t w o p a g e s t o 3 6 9 . Th is is t h e a t t a c h m e n t t o th e e m a i l. M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n y o u r e a d w h a t i ts ti t le is i n t h e m i d d l e of the page there? M S S A M B O : I s e e t h e A A R l o g o a n d t h e J M Av i a ti o n l o g o a n d th e ti t le is Pr o p o s a l fo r S o u t h A f r i c a n A ir w a y s . T h i s A A R P r o p o s a l O u t li n e s C o m p o n e n t s S u p p o r t f o r S A A Te c h n ic a l F le e t o f A ir b u s A 3 9 0 s , A 3 2 0 s , A 3 3 0 , A 3 4 0 a n d B o e in g 7 3 7 3 A ir c r a f t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 20 Thank you. C a n I t h e n a s k y o u t o t u r n to page 339? C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. T h e p r o p o s a l s t a r ts a t 3 6 9 . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : U p t o w h e r e d o e s i t g o ? D o y o u w a n t h e r to i d e n t if y u p t o w h a t p a g e it g o e s ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Ye s . C a n y o u id e n ti fy t h e l a s t p a g e ? J u s t Page 137 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 b e f o r e th e ta b th a t s a y s 4 4 . M S S A M B O : I t g o e s t o - o k a y, w h ic h p a g e n u m b e r s . . . ( in t e r v e n e s ) A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Yo u c a n g iv e u s t h e p a g e n u m b e r i n t h e b u n d l e . I t s t a r ts . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) M S S A M B O : I n t h e b u n d l e n o t . . . ( in t e r v e n e s ) A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I t s t a r ts o n p a g e 3 6 9 , w h e r e d o e s i t fi n is h in the bundle? MS SAMBO: At 442. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y s o t h a t , a l l t h o s e p a g e s th a t is t h e p r o p o s a l . Is t h a t th e p r o p o s a l t h a t w a s s e n t to M s M e m e la in t e r m s o f th e e m a i l w e lo o k e d a t a f e w m in u t e s a g o to - fr o m M s S o k h u lu o f J M Av i a ti o n ? Is t h a t r ig h t ? M S S A M B O : Ye s , i t i s c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n a ll t h i s w a s s e n t to y o u b y M s M e m e l a . M S S A M B O : M s M e m e la , y e s . CHAIRPERSON: To s h o w t h a t s h e h a d b e e n i n v o lv e d in a s s is t in g J M Av i a ti o n . M S S A M B O : F o r m e t h a t is w h a t I b e li e v e d a t t h e t i m e w h e n I r e c e i v e d 20 g iv e n th e c o n t e x t o f t h e d is c u s s i o n , I h a d w i t h h e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I f w e c a n ju s t t u r n to t h e o t h e r e m a i l t h a t M s M e m e l a f o r w a r d e d to y o u . T h a t is a t 3 3 9 . Page 138 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 M S S A M B O : Ye s . Th is e m a il i t c a m e fr o m Ms N o n ts a s a M e m e la o n t h e 2 3 r d o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 . I t w a s s e n t to m y i C l o u d e m a i l a d d r e s s a n d t h e ti t le - a n d t h e s u b je c t w a s J o i n t Ve n t u r e D r a ft A g r e e m e n t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Thank you and who was it sent by? M S S A M B O : T h e tr a i l o f e m a i ls s h o w s t h a t th e i n i ti a l d o c u m e n t c a m e fr o m Ms K h o s i S o k h u l u fr o m k h o s i @ j m a v i a ti o n s a .c o m a n d i t w a s s e n t to M s N o n ts a s a M e m e m l a o n h e r iC lo u d a c c o u n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : G iv e t h e d a t e a n d t h e t i m e o f t h e e m a il th a t w a s s e n t to Ms Memela. 10 M S S A M B O : T h e d a t e is t h e 1 4 t h o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 a t 1 6 :0 1 : 3 4 P M . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SAMBO: So 4 PM, half past 4 PM. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d y o u c a n y o u r e a d t h a t e m a il f o r u s please? M S S A M B O : H i c o u s i n , th is is th e f ir s t d r a ft o f th e J V s o fa r. J u l e s d i d a q u i c k r e v ie w a n d n o ti c e d t h e f o l lo w in g ; 1a. ‘i A g r e e d p a r t ic i p a ti o n J M 5 % A A R 9 5 % t h e n th e r e i s a 6 p a r t ic ip a ti o n i n te r e s t J M 5 % A A R 9 5 % . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 20 Yo u c a n p a u s e t h e r e M s S a m b o . Do you k n o w w h a t t h e r e la t io n s h i p w a s b e t w e e n M s S o k h u l u a n d M s M e m e l a ? M S S A M B O : N o , I d id n o t k n o w t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p . I j u s t s a w t h e c o u s i n , c o s o n t h e tr a il o f e m a ils . CHAIRPERSON: I w a s g o in g t o a s k y o u t o c o n fir m t h a t t h e “ H i c o z ” t h a t y o u r e a d e a r li e r o n w a s a r e f e r e n c e t o c o u s i n . M S S A M B O : Ye s , th e fir s t o n e i t a . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) Page 139 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 C H A I R P E R S O N : It is a s h o r t v e r s i o n . MS SAMBO: Short version coz. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S S A M B O : B u t t h e s e c o n d o n e is i n fu ll c o u s i n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Did you know who Jules was? That the one you have ju s t r e a d r e f e r s to J u l e s h a v i n g d o n e a q u i c k r e v ie w a n d n o t ic e d c e r t a i n things. 10 MS SAMBO: No, I do not know Jules. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , o k a y. M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h e a l le g a ti o n t h a t M s M e m e la t o l d y o u t h a t s h e h a s b e e n a s k e d b y M s K w i n a n a t o a s s is t J M Av i a t i o n w i t h i ts b id is o n e th a t s h e t h a t s h e h a s r e s p o n d e d t o i n h e r s t a t e m e n t . If I c a n a s k y o u t o tu r n t o p a g e 5 1 2 . M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : And at paragraph 8.3 she says upon r e a l is i n g t h a t Ms S a m b o h a d n o k n o w l e d g e o f w h a t i s e x p e c t e d o f h e r 20 o f a l o c a l b l a c k o w n e d c o m p a n y r e g a r d in g s u p p l ie r d e v e lo p m e n t , I forwarded her a draft copy of JM Proposal that was sent to me to guide t h e m o n s u p p li e r d e v e lo p m e n t . S i n c e s u p p l ie r d e v e l o p m e n t w a s a n e w p r o g r a m t o a ll th e l o c a l b l a c k o w n e d c o m p a n i e s th e r e fo r e i t w a s m y d u t y t o g u i d e a l l b l a c k o w n e d l o c a l s u p p li e r s s p e c i f ic a l ly o n t h e p a r t o f s u p p li e r d e v e l o p m e n t a n d M s S a m b o is w e l l a w a r e o f t h is fa c t . Page 140 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 B B B E E a n d s u p p l ie r d e v e lo p m e n t w e r e p a r t o f m y b u s i n e s s s c o r e c a r d . S i n c e M s S a m b o h a d e x p r e s s e d h e r i n t e n ti o n to e i t h e r a p p r o a c h A ir Fr a n c e a n d o r L u f a n t s a a s t h e i r l o c a l b la c k o w n e d c o m p a n y, I s a w i t fi t t o f o r w a r d h e r a d r a ft f r o m o t h e r b l a c k o w n e d c o m p a n i e s t o g u id e h e r a n d e n s u r e t h a t s h e k n o w s w h a t r o le s h e w o u l d p la y a s t h e ir B E E p a r t n e r. T h e r e is a b s o lu t e l y n o w h e r e in t h e tr a c k c h a n g e s o f t h e d r a f t proposal that was sent to her where it shows that I had worked or c o m m e n t e d o n t h e ir p r o p o s a l . A s th e i n t e n t io n w a s m e r e ly t o g u id e t h e m o n t h e s u p p l i e r d e v e l o p m e n t p a r t w h i c h I a ls o d i d fo r o t h e r s - I w i ll 10 p a u s e th e r e a n d a s k y o u t o c o m m e n t o n t h a t M s S a m b o . M S S A M B O : I w o u l d - I f in d h e r s t a t e m e n t is n o t a u t h e n t ic b e c a u s e a t t h e t i m e t h a t I w a s d e a l in g w it h S A A Te c h n i c a l a n d tr y i n g to d o b u s i n e s s w i t h A A R , d u r i n g th a t s a m e p e r i o d I w a s t h e D e p u ty C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e B B B E E C h a r te r C o u n c il f o r t h e w h o l e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t . A n d th e r e i s n o w a y I w o u l d n o t h a v e - I w o u ld n o t u n d e r s t a n d th e r e q u ir e m e n t s o f t h e B B B E E s c o r e c a r d . a r g u e th is . So, I would I t h i n k M s M e m e la - w o u l d n o t I t h i n k le t m e p a u s e t h e r e . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e l l I s e e M r M b ik i w a th a t s h e s e e m s t o - M s 20 M e m e l a s h e s e e m s t o s a y s h e is n o t g iv i n g h e r f u ll v e r s io n h e r e . S h e r e s e r v e s t h e r ig h t t o g iv e h e r fu ll v e r s io n s o m e w h e r e e ls e . T h a t is n o t good enough. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I f s h e h a s a v e r s io n , w e m u s t h a v e th e w h o le v e r s i o n here. Page 141 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir, u n f o r t u n a te ly s h e h a s b e e n s u m m o n s t o a p p e a r o n Fr i d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W h i c h g iv e s u s t h e o p p o r tu n i t y to a s k h e r t o c o n fir m u n d e r o a th t h is v e r s i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d to a s k h e r t h e r e m a in d e r o f h e r v e r s io n . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll i t is W e d n e s d a y t o d a y. If there is somebody r e p r e s e n ti n g h e r, s h e m u s t g e t h e r e w i t h a fu ll v e r s io n . I d o n o t w a n t 10 p i e c e m e a l v e r s i o n s . O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s c o n t in u e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : If I c a n c o n ti n u e w i t h t h a t p a r a g r a p h . Fr o m w h e r e I w a s s i t ti n g t h e r e w a s n o c o n fl ic t o f i n t e r e s t o n my s i d e a s I d i d n o t s i t o n th e c o m m i t t e e s t h a t w e r e d o i n g th e v a l u a ti o n a n d t h e v o t in g f o r t h e s u p p l ie r s . I w a s s u r p r is e d w h e n I l e a r n e d fr o m h e r a ffi d a v it t h a t s h e h a d tw is t e d th e f a c t s t o fi t h e r p e r s o n a l a g e n d a . I a ls o o n l y r e a l is e n o w t h a t t h e r e a s o n M s S a m b o is p r e s e n t i n g a ll t h e s e f a ls e a ll e g a ti o n s a g a in s t m e is b e c a u s e I r e f u s e d t o h e l p h e r w i t h p r ic e s a n d o t h e r 20 t e n d e r i n fo r m a ti o n w h e n s h e n e e d e d i t fo r A A R i n t h e p a s t . A n d w h e n s h e s a w t h e d r a ft fr o m J M , s h e c o n v e n i e n tly a s s u m e d I m a y h a v e a s s is t e d t h e m w i t h i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t w o u ld h e l p th e m t o w i n . Th is a l le g a ti o n is fa r fr o m t h e t r u t h a n d s h e k n o w s w h a t I s a i d w h e n I f o r w a r d e d h e r t h a t d r a f t . It w a s f o r h e r t o h a v e a n i n f o r m a ti v e B E E i n fo w h e n s h e a p p r o a c h e s th e m u l ti n a ti o n a l c o m p a n i e s . M s S a m b o is fu ll y Page 142 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 a w a r e t h a t I a s s is t e d a ll th e B l a c k o w n e d c o m p a n i e s i n c lu d in g h e r s e l f b u t I h a d s i n c e n o ti c e d t h a t s h e s u ff e r e d f r o m a n e x tr e m e c a s e o f s e l fe n t i tl e m e n t . W h e n s h e d o e s n o t g e t w h a t s h e w a n t s , s h e u s e s e x a c tl y w h a t o n e h a d u s e d t o a s s is t h e r a g a i n s t y o u . W h a t is y o u r r e s p o n s e t o t h a t p o r t i o n o f h e r s t a te m e n t ? M S S A M B O : H e r s t a te m e n t h a s g o t a lo t o f p e r s o n a l a t ta c k w h ic h I d o n o t w a n t to r e s p o n d to . She must com e and clarify what does she m e a n w h e n s h e s a id , I h a v e r e q u e s t e d p r i c i n g fr o m h e r in t h e p a s t. S h e m u s t b r i n g th a t e v i d e n c e t o t h e C o m m i s s io n t h a t I h a v e i n d e e d 10 a s k e d h e r f o r p r i c i n g in t h e p a s t b e s i d e s t h e U S B . s h e r e fu s e d s o t h is is a p e r s o n a l a t ta c k . So, and she says S h e s a y s I h a v e a s e l f- e n t i tl e m e n t . S h e m u s t d e fi n e a n d g iv e a f u ll v e r s i o n o f w h a t d o e s s h e m e a n a b o u t th is s e lf - e n ti t le m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l y o u a r e b e i n g g i v e n a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o r e s p o n d t o h e r v e r s i o n a n d ta k e th is o p p o r tu n i t y t o r e s p o n d to h e r v e r s i o n i n s o f a r a s s h e m a y b e s a y in g t h i n g s a b o u t y o u o r a g a in s t y o u t h a t y o u s a y a r e n o t tr u e . M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 20 I f y o u s a y I c a n n o t r e s p o n d t o th e p a r ti c u la r a l le g a ti o n b e c a u s e I d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d w h a t s h e m e a n s . Yo u m a y s a y s o b u t e v e r y t h i n g t h a t y o u u n d e r s ta n d , p a r ti c u l a r l y i f y o u s a y i t is n o t tr u e w h a t s h e is s a y i n g , y o u m u s t ta k e t h i s o p p o r tu n it y t o d e a l w it h i t . MS SAMBO: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h e a l l e g a ti o n is n o t tr u e a n d h e r a l le g a ti o n is fu ll o f p e r s o n a l a t t a c k . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t b e c a u s e I h a v e i n t e r r u p te d y o u . J u s t g o b a c k t o Page 143 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 s a y w h i c h a ll e g a t io n t h a t s h e is m a k in g a g a i n s t y o u t h a t y o u s a y i s n o t tr u e s o t h a t w e u n d e r s t a n d . M S S A M B O : A ll th e a ll e g a t io n s s h e r e f e r s t o o n p a r a g r a p h 8 . 3 t h a t w e a r e d e a li n g w i th r i g h t . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o f th e s t a te m e n t . M S S A M B O : O f h e r s ta t e m e n t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S A M B O : T h e 8 . 3 th a t w e a r e d e a l in g w i t h r i g h t n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M S S A M B O : T h a t s h e m e r e ly fo r w a r d e d t h e in f o r m a t io n to a s s is t m e i n u n d e r s t a n d in g s u p p l ie r d e v e lo p m e n t . A n d I a m s a y in g t h e s t a te m e n t is n o t tr u e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SAMBO: B e c a u s e a t t h a t ti m e I u n d e r s t a n d s u p p li e r d e v e l o p m e n t v e r y w e ll . As a D e p u ty C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B B B E E C h a r t e r C o u n c il f o r t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t , th a t w a s o u r r e s p o n s ib il it y t o a c t u a ll y d r a f t t h e n e w c o d e f o r t h e e n t ir e t r a n s p o r t s e c t o r. So, what she is a l le g in g h e r e , it is n o t tr u e . A n d I a m g o in g to c o n fi r m t h a t in o n e o f t h e S M S s th a t w e a r e g o i n g to d e a l w i t h , w h e r e s h e w a s g o in g i n to th e 20 m e e ti n g a n d s h e w a s a s k i n g m e fo r t h e in f o r m a t io n o f s u p p l ie r development. CHAIRPERSON: M r M b ik i w a j u s t m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u t a k e t h o s e i m p o r t a n t p a r ts o f h e r v e r s i o n , M s M e m e la ’s v e r s i o n a n d m a k e s u r e y o u p u t t h a t t o h e r. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d . Page 144 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t s h e c a n d e a l w i t h t h e m p r o p e r ly. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: B e c a u s e o n h e r o w n s h e m ig h t n o t b e a b l e t o d e a l w i t h a ll o f t h e m . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Ye s . M s S a m b o c a n I a s k y o u t o r e s p o n d i n p a r t ic u l a r t o t h e a ll e g a t io n t h a t M s M e m e l a r e fu s e d t o h e l p y o u w i t h p r i c e s a n d o th e r te n d e r in f o r m a t io n w h e n y o u n e e d e d i t f o r A A R i n t h e p a s t. M S S A M B O : Th e o n ly t i m e I h a v e a s k e d M s M e m e l a fo r i n fo r m a ti o n , i t 10 w a s o n t h e n i g h t th a t I h a d a m e e t i n g w i th M s J a c k s o n a t B u k h a r a a n d I s u b s e q u e n t ly m e t w i t h M s M e m e l a a n d s h e s a v e d t h e i n fo r m a ti o n o n th e m e m o r y s ti c k fo r m e . A n d I c a m e b a c k w i t h t h e i n fo r m a ti o n . T h e r e h a s n e v e r b e e n a n y o th e r ti m e t h a t I h a v e r e q u e s t e d h e r t o h e l p m e i n a n y w a y w i th i n fo r m a t i o n r e l a t e d to a n y b id b e s id e s t h a t in f o r m a ti o n . And I have a lr e a d y s u b m i tt e d the prove to this Commission so I would expect Ms Memela to also perhaps submit her p r o v e t h a t s h e d i d n o t g iv e m e a n y in f o r m a ti o n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d th e n Ms S a m b o a t 8 .4 a n d I d o n o t - I a m n o t g o in g to r e a d th e w h o l e p a r a g r a p h b u t t h e k e y a l le g a ti o n t h a t M s 20 M e m e l a m a k e s is th a t s h e d e n i e s t h e a l le g a t io n th a t s h e e v e r t o l d y o u t h a t M s K w i n a n a h a d a s k e d h e r t o a s s i s t M r N d z e k u a n d Ms S o k h u l u to p r e p a r e a w i n n i n g b id . W h a t is y o u r r e s p o n s e t o th a t ? M S S A M B O : T h is o n e C h a ir p e r s o n t h e r e i s n o w r i tt e n p r o v e s o i t i s h e r w o r d a g a in s t m i n e e x c e p t t h a t s h e fo r w a r d e d t h e e m a i ls th a t p r o v e d t h a t s h e a c t u a ll y d i d c o m m u n ic a te w i th M r N d z e k u o r M s S o k h u l u , w i t h Page 145 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 M s S o k h u l u i n p a r ti c u l a r f r o m J M Av ia t io n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir, I s e e th a t w e a r e a p p r o a c h i n g 4 o ’c l o c k . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t I t h i n k w e m u s t fi n i s h w it h M s S a m b o . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: W e h a v e n o t m o v e d w it h t h e k i n d o f s p e e d t h a t I w o u ld h a v e li k e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a t i s m y f a u l t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I t h i n k w e a r e n o t l e f t w i th m u c h . 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o , l e t u s tr y a n d f in is h . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th e r e i s n o t m u c h i n th e a ffi d a v i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h e n th e r e i s s o m e th i n g t h a t M s S a m b o j u s t r e fe r r e d t o w h i c h is a s e t o f W h a ts A p p m e s s a g e s t h a t s h e h a s p r o v i d e d to the Commission. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W h ic h a r e i n h e r b u n d le b u t n o t in h e r a ffi d a v i t . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W h ic h m a k e s it q u i te i m p o r t a n t t h a t w e d e a l with them. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n s o m e d e t a i l. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, let us do that. Page 146 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I f w e c a n p ic k i t u p b a c k a t y o u r a ffi d a v it M s S a m b o fr o m p a r a g r a p h 1 2 1 . Te l l u s w h a t h a p p e n e d a f t e r y o u w e r e s e n t t h o s e e m a il s b y M s M e m e la ? S o r r y, t h a t i s o n p a g e 3 5 , p a r a g r a p h 1 2 1 on page 35. MS SAMBO: O k a y. On page 35. C a n y o u r e p e a t y o u r q u e s ti o n please? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I a m j u s t a s k i n g y o u t o te ll u s w h a t – w h a t h a p p e n e d n e x t in th e c h r o n o l o g y a f t e r y o u w e r e s e n t t h e e m a i ls b y M s M e m e l a ? A f t e r s h e fo r w a r d e d y o u t h e e m a i ls t h a t h a d b e e n s e n t t o h e r 10 b y J M Av ia t io n ? M S S A M B O : O h y e s I j u s t s a fe k e p t th e i n fo r m a t i o n . I m a d e s u r e t h a t I a m k e e p i n g th is i n fo r m a t i o n i n c a s e I n e e d i t o n e d a y. A n d th e n e x t ti m e I ta lk e d o r u s e d t h e i n f o r m a t i o n w a s o n t h e 1 5 M a r c h 2 0 1 7 . A A R w a s a tt e n d i n g A A R , S R S , S A AT a n d a w h o l e l o t o f o r g a n i s a t io n s t h a t d e a l w i t h m a i n te n a n c e , r e p a ir a n d o v e r h a u l o f a ir c r a f ts . y e a r l y c o n f e r e n c e c a l le d th e A f r i c a M R O C o n fe r e n c e . T h e r e is a So AAR was r e p r e s e n t e d , I w a s th e r e . In t h a t m e e t i n g I m e t w i t h M s C h e r y l J a c k s o n a g a in s t ill y o u k n o w e x p r e s s i n g h o w I f e l t a n d h o w s h e tr e a te d o r m a n a g e d o u r r e la t io n s h ip b u t s h e w a s a d a m a n t t h a t t h e y w e r e 20 d is a p p o in t e d w h e n I w a l k e d a w a y a n d th a t is w h e r e th e u m b il ic a l c o r d w a s c u t b a s i c a ll y w i th S R S . T h e r e w a s – a t t h e – i n a t t e n d a n c e t h e r e w a s a l s o a la d y c a l l e d D o n n a D a h l i a M a lu l e k e w h o w a s w o r k in g f o r th e E m b a s s y in C h ic a g o in 2 0 11 w h e n I w a s i n tr o d u c e d to A A R . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y I j u s t w a n t to tr y a n d l o c a t e w h a t y o u a r e t e s ti fy in g a b o u t n o w i n t e r m s o f t i m e . I s t h is a m e e ti n g w it h w h o m , Page 147 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 where, when that you are now talking about? M S S A M B O : T h is w a s a t th e c o n f e r e n c e a t – w h ic h w a s a t t h e … CHAIRPERSON: W h a t c o n f e r e n c e w a s it I m a y h a v e m is s e d th a t? What conference was it? M S S A M B O : T h e r e w a s a c o n f e r e n c e a t E m p e r o r s P a l a c e fr o m t h e 1 3 to 17 March. CHAIRPERSON: 20? MS SAMBO: 2017. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 10 MS SAMBO: And… C H A I R P E R S O N : L o n g a f te r t h e f iv e … MS SAMBO: Long after… C H A I R P E R S O N : Fiv e y e a r – y e s . M S S A M B O : L o n g a f t e r th e – e v e n th e a w a r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SAMBO: Ye s . Ye s . Th a t m e e ti n g t h e r e w a s a la d y w h o u s e d t o w o r k f o r th e E m b a s s y i n C h ic a g o M r D o n n a D a h l i a M a l u le k e t h a t k n e w m e a n d a ls o k n e w M s M e m e l a a n d th e r e s t o f t h e t e a m . Post to her r e s ig n in g a t t h e E m b a s s y s h e w e n t t o j o in A A R a s a n e m p l o y e e f o r A A R 20 b u t s h e w a s n o t w o r k in g o n t h e c o m p o n e n t s d e a l . B u t s h e is s o m e b o d y t h a t I w o u l d ta lk to a s w e ll w i t h m y fr u s tr a ti o n b e c a u s e s h e w a s t h e r e fr o m t h e b e g i n n i n g a n d s h e j o i n e d A A R . A n d w h a t s h e d i d d u r in g t h a t c o n fe r e n c e s h e t r i e d t o in t e r v e n e t o g e t m y s e l f a n d M s N o n ts a s a to s i t d o w n a n d ta lk a b o u t w h a t r e a l ly h a p p e n e d w i t h t h e A A R c o n t r a c t . So O n t h a t d a y o f t h e 1 5 M a r c h t h a t is w h e n f o r t h e f ir s t ti m e I d is c l o s e d t o Page 148 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 M s M a l u l e k e th a t I h a v e t h is in f o r m a t io n t h a t M s M e m e l a fo r w a r d e d to m e t h a t s u g g e s t e d to m e t h a t s h e k n e w w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g . S h e a s s is t e d J M Av i a ti o n in p r e p a r in g t h e b i d . A n d s h e c a m e – s h e is th e o n e w h o t o l d m e t h a t J M Av ia t io n w a s a w a r d e d th e b i d . S o I w a s n o t h a p p y w i th th a t a n d D o n n a t h e n – M s M a l u l e k e t h e n tr i e d t o in t e r v e n e I t h i n k th a t i s w h a t A d v o c a t e M b ik i w a w a n t s t o g e t t o n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I d o n o t t h i n k I u n d e r s t o o d h o w y o u r m e e t in g w it h M s M e m e l a e n d e d i n A lb e r t o n o n t h e d a y t h a t s h e b r o k e t h e n e w s t o y o u o f t h e a w a r d o f t h e t e n d e r. I r e m e m b e r t h a t y o u s a i d t h a t y o u c r ie d 10 and people were looking at you at the restaurant and she – she was s u r p r is e d a t y o u r r e a c ti o n a n d u l t i m a te ly s h e g a v e y o u t h e i n fo r m a ti o n t o – w h ic h s h o w e d t h a t s h e h a d b e e n i n v o l v e d i n a s s i s t i n g J M Av i a ti o n . M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: But I do not remember that you – you told me how t h a t m e e ti n g e n d e d . M S S A M B O : I w a s s o h u r t C h a ir p e r s o n . I h a d to b e e x c u s e d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MS SAMBO: I left. CHAIRPERSON: So you – you… 20 M S S A M B O : T h e r e w a s n o f u r t h e r d is c u s s io n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c o u l d n o t – y o u c o u l d n o t h a v e … MS SAMBO: No. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n y p r o p e r d is c u s s i o n a f t e r t h a t? MS SAMBO: No. No. The… CHAIRPERSON: A n d h o w d id s h e f e e l w it h y o u d e c i d i n g t o l e a v e Ms Page 149 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 Memela? MS SAMBO: She – you… CHAIRPERSON: She understood that you were distraught? M S S A M B O : S h e – s h e u n d e r s t o o d a b s o l u t e ly. A b s o l u te ly. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Subsequent to th a t was th e r e r e g u la r c o m m u n ic a ti o n b e t w e e n t h e tw o o f y o u b e c a u s e I u n d e r s t a n d th a t u p t o t h a t p o in t y o u h a d b e c o m e fr ie n d s ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u r fr ie n d s h i p c o n t i n u e b e y o n d t h a t m e e t in g ? 10 M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : It c o n ti n u e d ? M S S A M B O : Ye s t h e r e a f t e r w e s t a r te d to s p e a k i n g e n e r a l . I w e n t in t o d e p r e s s i o n a n d I w o u ld s t il l t e ll h e r t h a t I a m in a n d o u t o f h o s p i t a l . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : A n d i f t h e r e is a d is c o v e r y a t h o s p it a l I w o u l d e v e n s h a r e w i t h h e r t h a t t h is is n o w th e n e w d i s c o v e r y. Yo u k n o w I a m g o in g t o d o t h is o p e r a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MS SAMBO: 20 S o th e r e w a s – y e s th e r e w a s th a t c o m m u n ic a ti o n b e t w e e n th e t w o o f u s . CHAIRPERSON: Did you feel let down in any way by her role in the a w a r d in g o f t h e – o f t h is t e n d e r ? M S S A M B O : A b s o lu t e l y. CHAIRPERSON: Why? M S S A M B O : A b s o l u t e ly. B e c a u s e I k n e w t h a t M s M e m e la h a d h e r b e s t Page 150 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 in t e r e s t a t h e a r t to s e e m e s u c c e e d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MS SA MBO: A n d I k n e w h o w h a r d s h e t r ie d t o i n tr o d u c e m e t o e v e n o th e r in t e r n a t i o n a l c o m p a n ie s to – t o p a r tn e r w i th m e . jo u r n e y Ms M e m e l a h a s a lw a y s b e e n t h e r e . S o i n t h is Yo u k n o w s h e b e c a m e a fr i e n d a n d w h e n A A R w a s t u r n i n g t h e ir b a c k o n m e s h e w a s th e r e to s a y tr y A ir Fr a n c e m a y b e A ir Fr a n c e w il l g iv e y o u a n a u d i e n c e . S h e t o o k i t u p o n h e r s e l f t o m a k e i n tr o d u c t io n s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 MS SAMBO: A n d w i t h t h a t I c o m p l e t e ly b e li e v e d t h a t s in c e r e ly Ms M e m e l a w a n t e d m e to s u c c e e d i n t h is i n d u s tr y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : B u t a t t h e s a m e t i m e in o u r d is c u s s io n s s h e a p p e a r e d to h a v e fo u n d h e r s e l f i n th e m id d l e o f a – I c o u l d c a ll i t a p l a c e – a h a r d r o c k a n d a h a r d p l a c e b e c a u s e n o w s h e h a s m e t h is s i d e . An e n tr e p r e n e u r w h o r e a lly w a n ts t o b r e a k th r o u g h t h is i n d u s t r y a n d r e a l ly w a n ts to w o r k a n d I a m r e a ll y p u t t in g th e e n tir e e ff o r t . A n d o n t h i s s i d e h e r e is th e f o r c e t h a t s a y s y o u k n o w h e lp t h is o n e . Yo u k n o w a n d t o a c e r t a i n d e g r e e I f e lt – I d o n o t k n o w h o w t o e x p l a i n t h i s b u t i t w a s 20 c o n fu s i o n . It was heart break. I t w a s f e e li n g o f b e tr a y a l . It was a w h o le l o t o f t h i n g s . A n d th e r e fo r e i m m e d i a te ly I c o u l d n o t j u s t w a lk a w a y fr o m h e r. I r e m a i n e d a n d w e h a d c o m m u n ic a ti o n b e c a u s e I w a n t e d t o u n d e r s ta n d to t h e T w h a t r e a l ly, r e a l ly h a p p e n e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h a t i s i t t h a t y o u – t h a t s h e d i d w h ic h y o u – y o u s a w a s h e r l e t ti n g y o u d o w n o r b e tr a y in g y o u o r b e t r a y i n g y o u r Page 151 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 fr i e n d s h i p w i th h e r ? MS SAMBO: T h e e m a i ls t h a t s h e fo r w a r d e d t h a t s h e i n d e e d a s s i s t e d J M Av i a ti o n . B e c a u s e a t s o m e p o in t s h e s a i d s h e d o e s n o t k n o w M r Ndzeku. A t s o m e p o i n t s h e w a s – t h a t is t h e d is c u s s i o n w e w e r e h a v i n g . S h e w a s s a y in g s h e d o e s n o t k n o w h i m . A n d th e n l a te r o n s h e in d i c a t e d t h a t M s K w in a n a i n t r o d u c e d M r N d z e k u t o h e r a n d a l s o a s k e d h e r t o a s s is t Mr N d z e k u . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t w h y d i d y o u n o t a c c e p t th a t a s tr u e n a m e ly that she was asked by Ms Kwinana to assist Mr Ndzeku and that is why 10 s h e w a s a s s is t in g ? M S S A M B O : I a m n o t – I a m n o t d i s p u t in g i t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m tr y i n g t o u n d e r s ta n d w h a t i t is th a t s h e d i d th a t m a d e y o u f e e l s h e h a d b e tr a y e d y o u ? B e c a u s e y o u a r e s a y i n g … M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u w e r e fr i e n d s a n d y o u a r e s a y i n g y o u b e l ie v e d t h a t s h e h a d y o u r b e s t i n te r e s t a t h e a r t a n d s h e w a s tr y in g t o a s s is t. S h e s a i d w e l l if A A R i s tr e a ti n g y o u li k e t h is m a y b e t r y A ir Fr a n c e a n d 20 s o o n . S o n o w th e te n d e r h a d b e e n a w a r d e d t o J M V a n d A A R . M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s h e to l d y o u w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d . W h a t i s i t t h a t s h e d id t h a t m a d e y o u f e e l s h e h a d b e t r a y e d y o u ? MS SAMBO: I j u s t f e l t s h e w a s s i tt i n g i n a p o s i ti o n o f p o w e r a s t h e H e a d o f Pr o c u r e m e n t a n d s h e w a s t h e r e a t t h e m e e t in g i n P ig a l l e w h e n Page 152 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 I i n t r o d u c e d A A R a n d s h e w a s t h e r e s e e in g m e in a n d o u t w i th A A R a t S A A Te c h n ic a l a n d I – a n d t h e r e a f te r w e a ls o d e v e l o p e d a fr i e n d s h ip a n d w e c o u l d t a lk a b o u t t h i s d e a l. A n d a t t h a t t i m e I b e l i e v e d s i t t in g a t t h e p o s i ti o n o f p o w e r s h e c o u l d h a v e – I a m n o t s a y i n g i t w a s h e r r e s p o n s i b i li ty b u t s h e w a s s i t ti n g a t a p o s i ti o n t h a t s h e c o u l d s ti ll h a v e a d v is e d A A R b e t t e r. I a m n o t s a y i n g i t w a s h e r r e s p o n s ib il i ty a n d t h a t is h o w – t h a t i s h o w I f e e l . I a m n o t s a y in g th a t is w h a t s h e w a s s u p p o s e d to d o . Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t s h e w a s n o t A A R ’s a d v i s o r a s w e l l , is it n o t ? 10 MS SAMBO: No she was not. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S A M B O : S h e w a s n o t . H e n c e I a m s a y in g … CHAIRPERSON: B u t i f i t is tr u e th a t s h e h a d b e e n a s k e d b y M s K w in a n a t o a s s i s t M r N d z e k u o r J M Av i a t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: W o u l d y o u s ti ll – a n d s h e c o m p li e d . Let us assume s h e c o m p l ie d w o u ld y o u s ti ll f e e l t h a t s h e b e tr a y e d y o u ? M S S A M B O : I d o n o t k n o w C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y n o t h a t i s f in e . I ju s t w a n t to – t o t r y a n d 20 u n d e r s t a n d y o u r o w n p e r s p e c t iv e . M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: B u t a ls o I d o n o t k n o w t h a t I u n d e r s t a n d c o m p le t e l y w h y s h e w o u ld h a v e g iv e n y o u t h e e m a il s t h a t s h e g a v e y o u b e c a u s e she said to you she had been asked by Ms Kwinana to assist JM. M S S A M B O : Ye s . Page 153 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 C H A I R P E R S O N : Av i a t i o n . M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s h e t o ld y o u th a t . M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u n o t b e li e v e th a t a n d s h e h a d t o p r o v e i t a n d w h y w o u l d s h e h a v e f e lt s h e n e e d e d t o p r o v e i t b y w a y o f g iv i n g y o u th e e m a i ls ? MS SAMBO: I d o n o t k n o w. But she proved the – excuse me. She q u a li fi e d h e r s ta t e m e n t M s Ya k h e K w in a n a a s k e d h e r t o a s s is t J M 10 Av i a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S A M B O : A n d s h e a c tu a l ly d i d a s s is t th e m a n d s h e f o r w a r d e d m e the proof. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Would you… MS SAMBO: So I – I think she… C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d y o u s a y w h e n s h e to l d y o u t h a t s h e w a s a s k e d b y M s K w i n a n a t o a s s i s t J M Av i a ti o n a n d w h e n s h e t o ld y o u th a t s h e d id 20 a c t u a ll y a s s is t J M Av i a ti o n s h e d i d n o t t h i n k t h a t t h a t w o u ld h u r t y o u ? B e c a u s e I g e t t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t t h a t is p a r t o f w h a t h u r t y o u . M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u m u s t t e l l m e i f m y t h i n k in g i s n o t c o r r e c t? M S S A M B O : N o d e fi n i t e l y. Ye s i n d e e d I w a s h u r t b y a l l t h e a c t iv it i e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 154 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 M S S A M B O : I n c lu d i n g h e r p a r t ic ip a ti o n i n – i n a s s is t in g J M Av i a t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: B u t – b u t y o u a r e n o t s a y in g t h a t s h e w a s s h o w i n g y o u a ll o f t h i s b e c a u s e s h e w a n t e d t o h u r t y o u i n a n y w a y ? M S S A M B O : N o I d o n o t t h in k … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n o t w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g ? M S S A M B O : N o , n o , n o . I d o n o t th i n k s h e w a n t e d t o h u r t m e i n a n y w a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S A M B O : I th i n k y o u k n o w a s a fr i e n d n o w. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e s h e w a s b e i n g c a n d i d w it h y o u a b o u t h e r r o l e . MS SAMBO: She was – yes, yes. B e c a u s e s h e h a s b e e n fr o m t h e b e g in n i n g . CHAIRPERSON: Ja and you said… M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: S h e w a s s h o c k e d o r s h e w a s s u r p r is e d a s t o y o u r r e a c ti o n w h e n y o u c r ie d , i s t h a t r i g h t ? M S S A M B O : Ye s , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o s h e m i g h t n o t h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t w h a t e v e r r o le s h e played might hurt you? 20 M S S A M B O : I d o n o t t h i n k s h e w a s a w a r e th a t I w a s a lr e a d y s li p p i n g in t o t h e d e p r e s s io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S A M B O : B e c a u s e r e m e m b e r A A R h a d a lr e a d y c u t m e o ff . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S A M B O : T h e y d i d n o t s u b m it t h e b i d w i t h m e . Page 155 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M S S A M B O : A t t h a t ti m e a l r e a d y i t is h u r t i n g s o b a d ly. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MS SAMBO: After working so hard. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . M S S A M B O : A n d w it h h e r c o n f ir m i n g th a t t h e y w e n t i n w i t h J M Av i a ti o n a n d n o w th i n k i n g a b o u t s e e i n g M s J a c k s o n w it h M r N d z e k u a t t h e l o b b y a t In t e r n a t i o n a l – I n t e r c o n ti n e n t a l H o te l a t O R Ta m b o n o w p l a y i n g b a c k e v e r y t h i n g it b e c a m e v e r y c l e a r to m e th a t – t h a t I w o u ld g e t h u r t . T h a t 10 y o u k n o w – t h e w h o l e p r o c e s s w a s ju s t s o w r o n g . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MS SAMBO: It was just so wrong. C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d i t b e – w o u ld i t b e c o r r e c t o r w o u ld i t b e – j a w o u ld it b e c o r r e c t t o s a y y o u r r e a c t i o n w a s m o r e a b o u t th e r e a li ty w h ic h y o u w e r e n o w s e e i n g w h i c h s h e h a d t o ld y o u e ffe c tiv e l y t h a t y o u r e a l ly h a d l o s t o u t a n d n o t s o m u c h w h a t h e r r o l e w a s in t h a t ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d i t b e – w o u l d th a t b e f a ir c o m m e n t ? M S S A M B O : T h a t w il l b e . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Fa ir c o m m e n t . M S S A M B O : A f a ir c o m m e n t C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: H e n c e t h e f a c t t h a t a f t e r w a r d s y o u r f r i e n d s h ip s til l c o n ti n u e d , is t h a t r ig h t ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 156 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 MS SAMBO: A t s o m e p o i n t I n e e d e d t o – to s e p a r a t e h e r a s a P r o c u r e m e n t M a n a g e r a t S A AT a n d h e r a s m y f r i e n d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S A M B O : A n d h e n c e w e c o n t i n u e d w i th th e te x t m e s s a g e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u – y o u d id h a v e s o m e s e n s e o f fe e li n g t h a t s h e h a d b e t r a y e d y o u b u t I g e t th e i m p r e s s io n y o u c a n n o t p u t y o u r f in g e r t o e x a c tl y w h a t i t is t h a t y o u s a y s h e d i d th a t s h o w e d b e tr a y a l . MS SA MBO: To a c e r ta i n e x t e n t I – I b e l ie v e d t h a t in h e r p e r s o n a l c a p a c i ty, i n h e r o w n a c c o r d th e w a y I k n o w M s M e m e l a w it h o u t b e i n g 10 in fl u e n c e d b y a n y o n e s h e w o u l d n o t h a v e d o n e th a t to m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . A n d t h a t s h o u ld g o … M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t s h o u l d g o a lo n g w a y. M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I n s a y i n g to y o u e v e n i f y o u d o n o t li k e t h e f a c t t h a t s h e p la y e d a r o l e b u t y o u u n d e r s t a n d … M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s u n d e r w h ic h s h e p l a y e d t h a t r o l e ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M s S a m b o th e r e a r e j u s t t w o f u r th e r a s p e c t s I w o u ld l ik e t o d e a l w i t h b e f o r e w e g e t to t h e – t h e W h a t s a p p m e s s a g e s . Th e f ir s t is th is m e e ti n g w i t h M s M e m e l a . I j u s t w a n t t o c la r i fy t h e – th e d a t e o f it . Yo u s a y a t p a r a g r a p h 1 2 5 t h a t i t was in early 2016 and I just want to check that you are sure of that Page 157 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 b e c a u s e t h e e v id e n c e t h a t w e h a v e g o t a n d th a t w il l b e l e d t o m o r r o w s u g g e s t s t h a t t h e a w a r d w a s o n ly m a d e i n M a y 2 0 1 6 ? M S S A M B O : Th e n t h i s w o u ld b e i n c o r r e c t C h a ir. C a n I r e q u e s t to – t o c o r r e c t m y a ff id a v i t? I g u e s s it is o n e o f th o s e a r e a s t h a t I c o u l d n o t place when in time. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t is fi n e . I f y o u – i f y o u – i f w h a t y o u w r o t e is w h a t y o u b e l i e v e d w a s t h e c o r r e c t d a te a t t h e ti m e t h a t is f in e . Yo u a r e c la r i fy in g t h a t y o u w o u l d a c c e p t t h e o th e r d a t e n o w. M S S A M B O : Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e c o m m i s s i o n ’s le g a l t e a m a n d y o u r l e g a l te a m w i ll l o o k a t w h e t h e r – a t th e p o s s ib il i ty w h e t h e r y o u s h o u ld f il e a n y s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t t o c la r i fy th a t . M S S A M B O : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d th e n t h e l a s t a s p e c t M s S a m b o i s a t p a r a g r a p h 1 2 8 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t . C a n y o u j u s t d e s c r i b e w h a t M s M e m e l a h a s s a i d a b o u t M s Ts h a b a l a l a ? MS SAMBO: I v e r b a l ly to l d A d v o c a t e M e m e l a t h a t I w a s g o i n g t o in s t i tu t e l e g a l a c t i o n . S h e i n fo r m e d m e t h a t s h e d i d n o t w o r k a lo n e i n 20 a s s is ti n g A A R w i t h t h e b id s u b m i s s io n a n d th a t s h e w o r k e d w i t h M s P r i n c e s s Ts h a b a la l a w h o w a s th e s e n i o r m a n a g e r … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y, I a m s o r r y M s S a m b o . I t h in k y o u – th e r e is s o m e t h in g th a t I a m – y o u m u s t h a v e s a i d b e f o r e y o u c o m e to th a t p o i n t . Yo u n o w s a y y o u t o l d h e r th e r e w a s t o b e a c t io n . Yo u a r e g o i n g t o i n s ti t u te a c ti o n . H a d y o u c o m e t o t h e d e c i s i o n t o s u e a n y b o d y a n d i f Page 158 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 s o w h o w a s i t a n d w h e n d i d y o u c o m e t o th a t d e c is i o n ? MS SAMBO: Ye s . U p o n r e a li s i n g t h a t – o h p o s t m y m e e t in g w i t h M s M e m e l a w h e r e s h e – s h e i n d ic a t e d t h a t t h e b i d i s n o w f in a lis e d a n d i t w a s a w a r d e d t o J M Av i a ti o n i n p a r tn e r s h i p w i t h A A R . Th is is w h e n I b e li e v e d t h a t I h a v e a v a l i d l e g a l c a s e t o i n s ti t u te le g a l p r o c e e d in g s . CHAIRPERSON: Against? O r y o u d i d n o t k n o w w h o a g a i n s t a t th a t ti m e o r y o u w e r e a d v is e d s u b s e q u e n tly ? I j u s t w a n t t o g e t t h a t p ic t u r e b e f o r e y o u c o m e t o t a lk i n g a b o u t M s Ts h a b a l a l a . M S S A M B O : T h a t I w o u l d i n s ti t u te le g a l a c t io n a g a i n s t h e r Ms M e m e l a . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. H e r a lo n e o r ? M S S A M B O : A t t h a t ti m e … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t y o u t h o u g h t a t t h a t t i m e ? M S S A M B O : T h e e v id e n c e t h a t I h a d i n m y p o s s e s s io n i s w h a t s h e h a s sent to me. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s th e n c o n ti n u e . Yo u t h e n to l d h e r y o u w e r e g o i n g t o s u e h e r, is th a t r i g h t ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . 20 CHAIRPERSON: J a t e l l u s – t e l l m e a b o u t th a t a n d h o w t h a t is s u e m o v e d fo r w a r d ? MS SAMBO: S o r r y. T h e l e g a l a c ti o n a ls o w a s g o i n g t o b e i n s t i tu t e d a g a in s t A A R o n th e b a s is o f a v e r b a l a g r e e m e n t th a t I b e li e v e d a t t h a t ti m e w o u l d h o l d w a t e r. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . W o u ld t h is – w o u ld th is b e a n a c ti o n fo r Page 159 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 d a m a g e s , f i n a n c ia l l o s s , f o r m o n e y th a t y o u th o u g h t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n p a i d b y A A R t o y o u f o r t h e w o r k y o u h a d d o n e a n d o r f o r t h e r o le t h a t M s M e m e l a h a d p l a y e d i n t h e a w a r d i n g o f – i n a s s i s t i n g J M Av i a ti o n . M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h a t w h a t i t w a s g o i n g t o b e a b o u t? M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y c o n ti n u e . M S S A M B O : A n d i n o u r d is c u s s i o n Ms M e m e l a i n d i c a t e d t h a t s h e d i d n o t w o r k a l o n e to a s s is t A A R i n p r e p a r i n g f o r t h e b i d s u b m is s i o n a n d 10 t h a t s h e s p e c i fic a l ly m e n ti o n e d Ms P r i n c e s s Ts h a b a l a la w h o w a s t h e s e n i o r m a n a g e r S u p p ly C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t a t S o u t h A fr ic a n Ai r w a y s Te c h n i c a l . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r M b ik i w a . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w h a t d id M s Ts h a b a la la s a y t o y o u ? MS SA MBO: O n e d a y I w e n t t o S A A Te c h n ic a l n o w a s o n e o f th e s u p p li e r s o n t h e d a y t o d a y q u o t a ti o n s y s t e m t o m e e t o t h e r s u p p li e r s a n d s h e s a w m e in t h e c o r r i d o r. T h e n s h e r e q u e s te d m e t o s t e p i n to h e r o ffi c e s h e w a n te d to ta lk t o m e . A n d t h is i s w h e n s h e t o ld m e th a t M s M e m e la in d i c a t e d t h a t I w a n t to t a k e l e g a l a c t io n a g a in s t t h e w h o l e 20 p r o c e s s th a t t o o k p l a c e w i th – u n t il t h e a w a r d o f th e c o n tr a c t t o A A R a n d J M Av ia t io n . A n d i n t h a t m e e ti n g s h e m e n ti o n e d t o m e t h a t I m u s t r e m e m b e r t h a t s h e – I m u s t – w e l l I d id n o t k n o w b u t s h e to l d s h e w a s a s in g le m o m a n d s h e n e e d e d t h e j o b . S o i f I s u e a n y o n e s h e is g o i n g t o lo s e h e r jo b . A n d M s M e m e l a h a d p r o m is e d t h e m th a t th e y w i ll b e p a i d m o n e y o n c e J M Av i a t i o n in p a r t n e r s h ip w i t h A A R r e c e iv e d o r h a v e Page 160 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 r e c e i v e d – o n c e t h e a w a r d w a s g iv e n t o A A R a n d J M Av i a ti o n t h e n th e y w i ll b e c o m p e n s a te d fo r a s s i s t i n g t h e m i n s u b m i tt i n g t h e b i d . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d t h is is a n o t h e r a s p e c t i n r e s p e c t o f w h ic h M s M e m e l a h a s f il e d a r e s p o n s e . I t i s n o t n e c e s s a r y f o r u s to g o t h e r e b u t b a s ic a l ly a t p a r a g r a p h 8 .9 o f h e r s ta t e m e n t s h e d e n i e s e v e r h a v i n g t o l d M s Ts h a b a l a l a o r a n y o f h e r s ta ff th a t M r N d z e k u o r M s K w in a n a h a d p r o m is e d th e m m o n e y. And she suggests that the fact t h a t y o u s a y b u t m o n e y w a s n e v e r g i v e n is q u e s ti o n a b l e a n d s h o w s t h a t t h e r e w a s n o m o n e y t h a t w a s e v e r p r o m i s e d o r d is c u s s e d b y a n y o n e . 10 W h a t is y o u r r e s p o n s e to t h a t ? MS SAMBO: I h a v e e m a i l – s ms m e s s a g e s w h e r e Ms M e m e la i s c o n fir m i n g t h e a ll e g a t io n I h a v e a g a i n s t h e r. I c a n tr y a n d fi n d t h e s m s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W e l l I w o u l d li k e t o t u r n t o th e s m s ’s n e x t s o le t u s g o th e r e . M S S A M B O : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: What is the page number? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W e c a n s ta r t a t 5 2 2 . M s S a m b o c a n y o u j u s t s t a r t b y t e ll in g u s w h a t – w h a t th e s e m e s s a g e s a r e ? M S S A M B O : O k a y. T h e r e a r e t w o s e ts o f m e s s a g e s . M s M e m e l a h a d 20 two phones and we would send – if I remember very well one was a business phone and another one was her personal phone. I stand for c o r r e c t io n o n t h a t o n e . B u t g e n e r a l ly w e w o u ld t a l k a s fr i e n d s . The s ms ’s o r t h e W h a t s a p p ’s t h a t I m a n a g e d t o r e tr ie v e f r o m m y p h o n e o n ly s t a r ts i n 2 0 – m o s t ly th e y a r e i n 2 0 1 7 . I d o n o t k n o w i f t h e r e is a n y … . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : The messages start at – at 517 if that is Page 161 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 h e l p f u l. T h a t is t h e fi r s t p a g e o f th e m e s s a g e s . MS SAMBO: thank you. I j u s t w a n t to c h e c k t h e d a te s o f t h e m e s – o k a y y e s S o – s o th e s m s ’s t h a t I h a v e s p a n t h r o u g h fr o m t h e 1 7 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 6 w h ic h w a s w a y a f t e r t h e c o n tr a c t w a s a w a r d e d t o – t o A A R a n d J M Av ia t io n . I n t h e m e s s a g e s t h e r e i s a c o m b i n a ti o n o f o u r fr i e n d ly m e s s a g e s a n d a t s o m e p o i n t t h e r e a r e m e s s a g e s f r o m t h e 1 5 M a r c h 2 0 1 7 th a t n o w h a v e g o t s o m e a l le g a ti o n s a g a i n s t m e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S o r r y I d i d n o t m e a n t o i n t e r r u p t y o u . M S S A M B O : Ye s . S o j u s t to … 10 CHAIRPERSON: W e l l I t h o u g h t w e a r e g o i n g to t h e m e s s a g e t h a t c o n fir m s o n e o f th e a ll e g a t io n s y o u h a v e m a d e a g a in s t h e r. L e t u s g e t t h e r e . Ms M b ik iw a l e t u s g e t to t h a t o n e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir I a m n o t s u r e w h ic h s p e c i fic m e s s a g e M s S a m b o is r e f e r r i n g t o C H A I R P E R S O N : J a w h i c h o n e d i d y o u h a v e i n m in d ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : D o y o u h a v e a p a r t ic u l a r m e s s a g e i n m i n d ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Te l l u s w h a t th e a l le g a ti o n y o u m a k e a g a i n s t h e r a n d y o u te ll u s t h a t – w h a t s h e s a i d i n th e m e s s a g e t o y o u w h i c h y o u s a y c o n fir m s th e t r u t h fu l n e s s o f th a t a ll e g a t io n ? T h e n w e c a n g o a n d lo o k 20 for the message. MS SAMBO: T h e n p l e a s e r e m in d m e C h a ir w h i c h e l e m e n t o f m y a ffi d a v i t w e w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t a t th a t t i m e ? B e c a u s e th e r e is s o m a n y things… A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W e w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t M s Ts h a b a l a la . CHAIRPERSON: Hm ja. Page 162 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 M S S A M B O : O h o k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . M S S A M B O : A b o u t M s Ts h a b a l a l a y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Yo u h a d s a i d y o u w e r e g o in g to s u e … M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M S S A M B O : Ye s . S o I w o u ld li k e t o f in d t h a t S M S w h e r e s h e r e f e r r e d t o - t o M s Ts h a b a l a l a . CHAIRPERSON: 10 D o y o u r e m e m b e r w h a t s h e s a y s in t h e m e s s a g e a b o u t M s Ts h a b a la la ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O r w h a t - w h a t d o y o u - w h a t s h e s a y s i n th e message. M S S A M B O : Ye s . B a s ic a l ly o n 1 5 M a r c h … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MS SAMBO: T h a t i s w h e n f o r th e fir s t ti m e I t o l d M s M a lu l e k e t h a t I h a v e g o t a l l t h e s e e m a il s t h a t a r e i m p l ic a t in g M s M e m e l a th a t s h e f o r w a r d e d t o m e a n d I w a n t t o t a k e l e g a l a c t io n a n d M s M a l u l e k e in t u r n w e n t t o M s M e m e l a t o t e l l h e r t h a t I h a v e g o t i n fo r m a ti o n a g a i n s t h e r. 20 T h a t I w a n t t o o p e n a l e g a l c a s e o n , b u t o n t h e m e s s a g e s s h e is a l le g in g t h a t I s a i d I w il l g o to th e n e w s p a p e r s a n d - a n d t h is a n d th a t , but I remember I wanted to open a formal legal … CHAIRPERSON: D o y o u r e m e m b e r w h a t s h e s a i d w h ic h y o u s a y s u p p o r ts … M S S A M B O : Ye a h . Page 163 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r a ll e g a ti o n ? W h a t d id s h e s a y in t h e m e s s a g e a s f a r a s y o u c a n r e c a ll ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . As f a r a s I c a n r e c a l l s h e in d ic a t e d o n t h e W h a ts A p p message. O n c e s h e r e a l is e d t h a t I h a v e t h a t i n fo r m a t i o n a g a i n s t h e r. S h e th e n i n d ic a te d t h a t i f I th i n k I a m g o i n g t o d e s t r o y h e r. k n o w t h a t I w il l n o t b e d e s t r o y i n g h e r a lo n e . I must I w il l b e d e s tr o y i n g h e r a n d o t h e r p e o p l e a n d s h e m e n ti o n e d t h e n a m e s . S h e m e n ti o n e d M s P r i n c e s s Ts h a b a l a l a a n d s h e m e n ti o n e d M r Zw a n e - t h e C E O . 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n w e - c a n w e t u r n t o p a g e 5 - 3 - 2 ? C h a ir, t h e - t h e m e s s a g e is a t t h e b o t t o m o f t h a t p a g e . 5 - 3 2 . Ar e y o u t h e r e Ms Sambo? M S S A M B O : Ye s . I a m h e r e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d i f y o u g o r i g h t t o t h e b o t to m . M S S A M B O : O h . Ye s . T h a n k y o u . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W h o i s t h a t a m e s s a g e fr o m ? MS SAMBO: T h e m e s s a g e is f r o m M s N o m s a M e m e l a . I t w a s s e n t t o me on 20 March 2017 at 21:44:19 at night. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d j u s t - j u s t f o r c o n t e x t c a n y o u - c a n y o u 20 r e a d t h e m e s s a g e j u s t a b o v e a t f iv e p a s t t h r e e o n 2 0 M a r c h a t 1 5 : 0 5 ? M S S A M B O : O k a y. A t 1 5 : 0 5 o n 2 0 M a r c h 2 0 1 7 N o n s a M e m e la s e n t m e a message saying: “ I j u s t h a d a m e e t in g w i t h D o n n a … ” D o n n a r e f e r r in g to M s M a lu le k e . “ … f o r t w o h o u r s . T h is is r e a ll y d is a p p o i n ti n g … ” Page 164 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. L e t m e tr y - I a m s o r r y. L e t m e tr y a n d s e e w h e r e y o u a r e ? Ar e y o u a t 5 - 3 - 2 ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 5 - 3 - 2 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e a b o u t o n th e p a g e ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : H a lf w a y - h a l f w a y th r o u g h t h e p a g e . T h e t h e - y o u w il l s e e t h e t i m e s ta m p . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . Ye s . I s e e . “ I j u s t h a d a m e e t in g w i t h D o n n a . ” A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a t i s t h e o n e . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : J a . C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t . Ye s . C o n t in u e . MS SAMBO: “ T h i s i s r e a l ly d i s a p p o i n t i n g a n d d is c o u r a g i n g . L e t u s m e e t w h e n y o u a r e fr e e . ( A f r ic a n w o r d ) . ” M e a n i n g I w i ll h e a r fr o m y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d t h e n c a n w e g o t o t h e m e s s a g e t h a t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o r e a d ? T h e - th e o n e a t 9 4 4 . M S S A M B O : Ye s . S o i t s a y s : 20 “ I w a n t to t e l l y o u … ” T h a t is th e s e c o n d s e n te n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e o n e a t 2 1 : 4 4 ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A t 2 1 : 4 4 . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M s S a m b o , c a n I a s k th a t y o u r e a d t h e Page 165 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 w h o le m e s s a g e i n t o t h e r e c o r d . I t is j u s t t h a t w e … M S S A M B O : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : B e c a u s e y o u h a v e p r o v i d e d t h e s e m e s s a g e s … M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : To t h e C o m m i s s io n q u it e l a t e . M S S A M B O : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th e y a r e n o t p a r t o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 MS SAMBO: O k a y. T h is is a message that came fr o m M s N o m s a M e m e l a . S o s h e s a i d m e a n in g s o D o n n a s a i d - M s M a l u l e k e said. “ B y th e ti m e y o u g o t to h e r … ” M e a n i n g M s M a lu le k e . “ … y o u w e r e r e a d y t o s h o w h e r th e i n fo r m a ti o n t h a t …” I w a s r e a d y to s h o w M s M a lu l e k e t h e i n fo r m a t io n . “ … w h ic h m a d e h e r u n c o m f o r t a b le … ” H e r - y e s . I w i ll - I w il l j u s t s a y o n c e n o w t h a t is Ms M a l u l e k e . 20 “…uncomfortable because she s t a r te d a s k in g herself if you had shown it to someone else.” S h e is r e f e r r in g to t h e e m a ils t h a t M s M e m e l a e m a i le d to m e . “ Yo u w e r e e v e n c o n te m p l a ti n g t o c a ll C i t y P r e s s t o g iv e t h e m t h e in f o . N o w m y s i s t e r a l l I w a n t to know is when did this become about me? When did Page 166 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 I b e c o m e y o u r s u d d e n e n e m y ? A p p a r e n tl y y o u s a id t o h e r I a m th e o n e w h o f o r c e d y o u t o n o t w o r k w it h AAR. I was on speed dial, because every decision y o u t o o k i t w a s m y a d v ic e . Hibo. I w a s r e a l ly s h o c k e d . A l l I e v e r d i d f o r y o u w a s t o h e lp . E v e n t h e in f o t h a t y o u a r e u s i n g n o w w a s s e n t t o y o u in g o o d fa i th t o h e l p y o u . E v e n b e f o r e th a t w h e n y o u w a n t e d p r ic e i n f o f o r C h e r y l . I g a v e t h a t t o y o u … ” C a n I s a y s o m e t h i n g a b o u t th a t ? 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : J u s t g e t to t h e e n d o f t h e s e n t e n c e a n d t h e n … M S S A M B O : O k a y. “ I - I g a v e th a t t o y o u a s I n e v e r th o u g h t y o u w o u l d o n e d a y p la n to u s e i t a g a in s t m e . ” H e r e I b e l ie v e s h e is r e f e r r i n g to t h e U S B t h a t o n h e r n o tic e o n th e r e s p o n s e o n t h e N o t ic e 3 .3 s h e d e n i e s t o g iv in g m e , b u t o n t h e SMS she agrees. “ E v e n w h e n y o u a s k e d a b o u t t h e f u e l in f o - t h e f u e l in y o u … ” 20 I th in k i t w a s : “ … t h e fu e l - if y o u w e r e i n t h e w a i t in g l is t I t o o k a photo for you and sent it to you on WhatsApp. Now h o w d id th is c h a n g e a n d b e a b o u t m e ? I w a n t y o u to be - to believe honest with me and tell me when d i d I e v e r w r o n g e d y o u t o a n e x t e n t t h a t y o u w i ll Page 167 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 v o u c h t o d e s t r o y m y c a r e e r. W h a t d id I p r o m is e y o u ? W a s I n o t th e o n e w h o k e p t o n a s k i n g y o u to h a v e a c o n tr a c t w i t h A A R a n d y o u p r o m i s e d m e th a t y o u r l a w y e r w a s w o r k i n g o n i t ? I e v e n o ff e r e d t o d o it f o r fr e e . I s - is t h e f a c t t h a t A A R a ls o s t a r te d w o r k i n g w i th B o n g a n i a n d R a fi q u e a l s o m y f a u l t . D i d I in tr o d u c e t h e m a s w e ll t o A A R ? M y s is t e r I f e e l s o b e tr a y e d r i g h t n o w. M y w i ll in g n e s s t o w a n t t o h e l p y o u a s m y B la c k s is t e r i s t u r n i n g o n m e n o w. 10 I r e m e m b e r w h e n I w a s q u e s t io n e d b y th e a c c u s e d w h e n I w a s q u e s t io n e d b y t h e a u d i t o r s , b e c a u s e I w a s fi g h ti n g f o r y o u t o g e t b u s i n e s s a t S A AT a n d they accused because me o f h a v in g everywhere I went p e r s o n a l i n t e r e s ts I m e n ti o n e d your c o m p a n y. I w a n t to t e l l y o u - I w a n t to - I w a n t y o u t o t e ll m e w h y is t h i s n o w m y fa u l t. I h a d t o t e ll t h e C E O , Ya k h e a n d P r i n c e s s , b e c a u s e a s m u c h a s y o u w o u ld t h i n k y o u d e s tr o y i n g m e . T h e y w il l a ls o g e t a ffe c te d . ” 20 Yo u w a n t m e to r e a d s ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I f y o u j u s t p a u s e … M S S A M B O : ( I n d is t in c t) . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : P a u s e t h e r e a n d e x p l a i n t h a t l a s t m e s s a g e , b e c a u s e I t h in k t h a t w a s t h e m e s s a g e th a t y o u w a n te d to r e f e r t o . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 168 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a t w a s t h e p o r ti o n t h a t y o u w a n t e d t o r e fe r t o . M S S A M B O : Ye s . T h is - I w a n t e d t o p r o v e t h a t M s M e m e la in d ic a t e s t h a t I a m ly i n g o n h e r r e s p o n s e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MS SAMBO: O n t h e N o ti c e 3 . 3 s h e d e n ie s h a v in g w o r k e d w i th M s K w i n a n a , t h e C E O a n d M s Pr in c e s s Ts h a b a l a l a a n d I j u s t w a n t e d t o g iv e t h is a s e v i d e n c e fr o m h e r te x t m e s s a g e t o m e . To p r o v e th a t I a m c o r r e c t in m y s t a t e m e n t . 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : O k a y. P l e a s e c o n ti n u e fr o m w h e r e y o u le f t o ff . M S S A M B O : “ Th e y a ls o w a n t a m e e t in g w it h y o u . M a y b e y o u w i ll b e a b l e t o t e ll th e m w h y i s t h i s a l l my f a u l t n o w. W h a t k il ls m e is e v e n i f y o u w o u l d h a v e g o n e t o th e H a w k s o r C i ty P r e s s I w o u l d h a v e d e f e n d e d y o u . I w o u ld n o t e v e n h a d s u s p e c te d y o u . H o w d o I tr u s t y o u n o w g o in g f o r w a r d , b e c a u s e y o u w e r e l a u g h in g w i t h m e a n d I o n l y fi n d o u t n o w t h a t y o u s e e m e a s a n e n e m y t h a t s h o u ld b e d e s tr o y e d ? I b r o k e a ll t h e 20 r u l e s f o r y o u S ib o . I b r o u g h t y o u i n fo r - a t t h e - a t L a w r e n c e o ff ic e f o r y o u t o p r e p a r e f o r l o g is t ic s . I d e m a n d e d ( in d is ti n c t) t o m a k e s u r e ( in d i s t in c t ) b e y o u r p a r t n e r. I w a s a c c u s e d o f e a t in g f r o m y o u r p o c k e t, b e c a u s e I w a s p r e a c h in g t o e v e r y o n e w h o c a r e d t o l is t e n t h a t y o u d e s e r v e to b e o n t o p o f t h e Page 169 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 lis t . H o w d id it g e t t o t h i s w h e r e y o u s e e m e a s your enemy? ( A fr ic a n w o r d ) I w o u ld n o t w o r r y i f t h is w a s j u s t a b o u t m e , b u t m a n y p e o p l e w e r e in v o lv e d i n th is w h o h a v e n o i d e a w h a t y o u a r e p l a n n in g . I t o l d y o u a b o u t S is D t h a t s h e w a n te d m e t o h e l p A J W a lt e r s t o w i n , b u t I c o u l d n o t a n d n o w I a m a n e n e m y. I u n d e r s ta n d h e r, b u t y o u i t i s a p il l t h a t I fi n d d i ffi c u l t t o s w a ll o w. ” A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n I p a u s e y o u t h e r e Ms S a m b o ? 10 M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W h o i s S i s D ? M S S A M B O : A t th e t i m e o f t h e m e s s a g e I b e li e v e d t h a t M s D - s h e w a s r e fe r r i n g t o M s D u d u M y e n i . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w h a t is t h e r e fe r e n c e to M s M y e n i w a n t y o u t o h e l p A J W a l t e r s t o w in ? MS SAMBO: N o . S h e w a s t e l li n g m e t h a t Ms D u d u M y e n i w a n t e d h e r t o a s s is t A J Wa l te r s a ls o . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d - a n d w h a t is t h a t a r e fe r e n c e to ? M S S A M B O : M e a n i n g ? S o r r y. M a y b e I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : In o th e r w o r d s … A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W h a t is s h e … ? C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u k n o w w h a t M s M e m e l a w a s s u p p o s e d to h e l p A J W a l t e r s to g e t o r t o w in ? W a s i t a t e n d e r ? M S S A M B O : O h . I t is th e c o m p o n e n ts b i d . CHAIRPERSON: The same one that …? Page 170 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 MS SAMBO: The same. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e s a m e o n e t h a t y o u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . T h e c o m p o n e n ts b i d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : P l e a s e g o o n . MS SAMBO: “ I u n d e r s ta n d , b u t y o u i s a p i ll th a t I f in d d i ff ic u l t to s w a l l o w. I d i d n o t h i d e a n y t h i n g t o y o u . 10 I w a s v e r y tr a n s p a r e n t w i th y o u , b u t o u r m e e ti n g a t n i g h t I d id n o t h a v e a ll th e i n fo r m a ti o n a t t h a t t i m e . L e t m e k n o w i f I s h o u l d c a ll a ll o f th e m i n th is m e e ti n g o r y o u w il l ta lk t o m e . Just imagine if L a u r e n w e r e t o s p i ll t h e b e a n s a b o u t g i v i n g u s th a t m o n e y w e s h a r e d . H o w w o u l d y o u fe e l a b o u t t h a t? I m a g i n e i f M u s a w e r e to t e l l a ll th a t y o u c a l le d h i m to meet at the garage and you asked him the prices f o r th e c o m p o n e n ts . Ye s . H e w a s d is a p p o in t e d , b u t h e k e p t i t to h i m s e l f . ” 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n I p a u s e y o u t h e r e Ms - M s S a m b o ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W h a t is t h e r e f e r e n c e t o ? “ I f - i m a g i n e i f L a u r e n w e r e t o s p i ll th e b e a n s a b o u t g iv i n g u s t h a t m o n e y w e s h a r e d . ” MS SAMBO: L a u r e n - I t h i n k s h e m e a n t a la d y c a l le d L o r r a i n e Pi ll a y. Page 171 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 Yo u r e m e m b e r I i n d ic a t e d e a r li e r i n my s t a t e m e n t t h a t t h e y a s k e d m e M s M e m e l a a n d M s Ya k h e K w i n a n a a s k e d m e i f I k n o w a n y b o d y o n t h e lo g i s t ic s s i d e . S o … C H A I R P E R S O N : H a n g - h a n g o n . Is s h e n o t g o in g to i m p li c a t e p e o p l e w h o m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n g iv e n 3 . 3 N o t ic e s ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Let us not do that. I f s h e n e e d s to c o m e b a c k la t e r. L e t t h o s e p e o p le b e g iv e n n o t ic e s fir s t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C e r t a i n ly C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. O k a y. I f t h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g s h e w a n ts t o s ti ll r e a d t h a t d o e s n o t i m p l ic a te p e o p l e w h o h a v e n o t b e e n - w h o h a v e n o t b e e n g iv e n 3 . 3 N o ti c e s . T h a t is fi n e , b u t … A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir, t h e - t h e o th e r r e f e r e n c e s in th e - i n t h e W h a ts A p p ’s t h a t I w a s g o i n g t o t a k e y o u to w o u l d in v o lv e s o m e le v e l o f i m p li c a t io n f o r o t h e r s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. No. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S o - s o w e w il l - w e w ill s a v e t h a t f o r … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n o th e r ti m e . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir t h a t i s … C H A I R P E R S O N : M s S a m b o y o u u n d e r s t a n d w h y I a m n o t a l l o w in g y o u to proceed? MS SAMBO: I understand. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , b e c a u s e a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i ti o n y o u g a v e Page 172 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 t h e s e e m a i ls t o t h e C o m m i s s io n s L e g a l Te a m la t e … M S S A M B O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e y w o u l d n o t h a v e n o t i fi e d p e o p l e w h o m ig h t b e i m p l ic a t e d i n th is e m a i l e x c h a n g e o r i n th e s e e m a i ls . M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: T h a t th e i r n a m e s w o u l d b e m e n ti o n e d in y o u r e v i d e n c e i n t h e s e c ir c u m s t a n c e s a n d t h a t s h o u ld b e d o n e fi r s t b e fo r e w e g e t - w e g e t t h e r e . S o y o u m i g h t b e a s k e d t o c o m e b a c k a t a l a te r stage. 10 M S S A M B O : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MS SAMBO: Understood. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir, t h e la s t a s p e c t is t h e F a c e b o o k p h o t o s th a t w e h a v e tr ie d r e p e a t e d ly … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : To - to g e t in t o a n a c c e p t a b le f o r m . I f I … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I f I c o u l d h a n d t h is u p . What we have m a n a g e d t o d o C h a ir i s t o ta k e t h e b lo w n u p v e r s io n s a n d p a g in a t e 20 t h e m i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h M s S a m b o ’s b u n d le t o b e i n s e r t e d a t t h e b a c k . I t w a s n o t p o s s ib l e u n fo r t u n a t e ly fo r u s t o s i m p ly i n s e r t t h e m w h e r e M s S a m b o ’s p h o t o g r a p h s w e r e , b e c a u s e t h e - th e e n l a r g e m e n t a ffe c t e d t h e - t h e p a g in a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d t h e p a g in a ti o n w h ic h a p p e a r s h e r e b e l o n g s to t h is b u n d l e ? Page 173 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I t b e lo n g s t o t h i s b u n d l e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a t is f i n e . T h a t i s f in e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Ms S a m b o , c a n I a s k y o u i n t h a t - t h e - those pages you have just been handed? M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n y o u g o t o p a g e 5 - 6 - 8 ? M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Ar e th e s e the photographs that you d o w n l o a d e d a f t e r M s M e m e l a w e n t o n th e d e l e g a ti o n ? 10 M S S A M B O : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d c a n y o u r e a d w h a t h e r p o s t is t o g e t h e r w i t h t h o s e p h o to g r a p h s ? M S S A M B O : “ W e a b o u t t o b e j e t te d t o I n d i a n a P o l ic e in s i d e t h e j e t . T h e a ir h o s t e s s s e r v i n g u s w i th o n e o f o u r p i lo ts . M a p b e h in d m e o f w h e r e w e w e r e a n d f o o d that we were served.” A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d th e n i f y o u c a n t u r n to p a g e 5 - 7 0 a n d i f you can read that? CHAIRPERSON: 20 I - I t a k e i t t h a t - t h a t t h e r e is s o m e s ig n i f ic a n c e i n t h e s e p h o to s ? S o m e - th e r e is s o m e th i n g i m p o r t a n t a b o u t - a b o u t w h a t is s h o w n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d C h a ir. In t h e c o u r s e o f t o m o r r o w ’s evidence and CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Fr id a y ’s evidence Page 174 of 180 one aspect we w i ll 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 tr a v e r s e is w h e t h e r t h e g i f ts a n d g r a tu i ty t h a t w a s o b t a in e d o n t h i s tr ip … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Wa s p e r m i s s i b l e i n t e r m s o f th e S o u th A fr ic a n A ir w a y s P o li c i e s a t t h e t i m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i n r e la t io n t o t h i s w i t n e s s is - is t h e r e s o m e t h i n g i m p o r t a n t? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir, w e c a n d e a l w i t h i t w i t h th e n e x t witness. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th e r e a s o n w e a r e d e a li n g i t w i th - w i t h M s S a m b o is b e c a u s e s h e d o w n l o a d e d t h e p h o t o g r a p h s . CHAIRPERSON: And she mentioned them? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll s h e c o n f ir m s th a t s h e d o w n l o a d e d t h e m t h a t might be enough. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a t i s p r o b a b l y e n o u g h . In d e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Yo u - y o u c o n f ir m t h a t? M S S A M B O : Ye s . I c o n fi r m . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d th a t i s p a g e s 5 - 5 - 8 t o 5 - 7 - 3 ? Is th a t r i g h t? M S S A M B O : I c o n f ir m . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir t h a t - th a t c o n c lu d e s m y q u e s ti o n s fo r Ms Sambo. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 175 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th e r e - t h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g th a t M s H o f m e y r n e e d s to c o m m u n i c a t e j u s t to c o n c lu d e t h e p r o c e e d i n g s v e r y b r ie f ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t n o th in g t o d o w i t h t h e w i tn e s s ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : N o th i n g t o d o w it h th e w i t n e s s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . O k a y. M s S a m b o , th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r c o m i n g t o g iv e e v i d e n c e . W e a p p r e c ia t e i t . MS SAMBO: It is my pleasure. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u p r o b a b ly w ill b e c a l le d to c o m e b a c k a n d d e a l w i t h t h e m a t t e r s t h a t a r e d e a l t w i t h i n s o m e o f t h e e m a il s t h a t c o u l d n o t 10 b e d e a l t w i t h , b e c a u s e r e l e v a n t p e o p l e h a v e n o t b e e n g iv e n n o t ic e y e t … M S S A M B O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: But thank you very much and you are excused. MS SAMBO: It is a pleasure. Thank you so much. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . M s H o f m e y r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir, ju s t in th e m o m e n ts b r e a k t h e r e b e t w e e n t h e q u e s ti o n i n g a n d y o u r e x c u s in g o f M s S a m b o . H e r l e g a l r e p r e s e n ta t iv e s h a v e in d i c a t e d t o m e t h a t t h e r e a r e t w o m a t t e r s th a t th e y w o u l d li k e t o c l a r i fy i n r e - e x a m i n a t io n . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Oh. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w o n d e r i f y o u w o u l d li k e t o d o t h a t b e fo r e I d e a l w it h t h e p r o c e d u r a l m a t t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l i f s h e is g o i n g t o c o m e b a c k . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e t h e y s h o u ld r e - e x a m in e w h e n s h e c o m e s b a c k Page 176 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 a n d s h e h a s fi n is h e d e v e r y t h i n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : R a t h e r t h a n d o i t i n p ie c e m e a l . J a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u f o r t h a t d ir e c t io n C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir, I a m - I a m t a k i n g a m o m e n t s i m p ly b e c a u s e a t 3 : 5 3 t h is a f te r n o o n … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e S e c r e t a r ia t r e c e iv e d a - a c o m m u n ic a ti o n fr o m M s M e m e l a th a t s h e h a s r e q u e s t e d b e b r o u g h t t o t h e a tt e n ti o n o f t h e C o m m is s i o n . I w o u l d l ik e i n f a ir n e s s t o h e r s i m p l y t o r e a d it in … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n t o m a k e o n e o r t w o s u b m i s s i o n s fr o m t h e le g a l t e a m i n r e s p o n s e . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms M e m e l a h a s w r it t e n t o th e S e c r e t a r i a t to s a y t h e f o l lo w i n g : 20 “ D e a r S e c r e t a r y a n d t h e L e g a l Te a m , I h a v e j u s t le a r n e d t h a t i t w a s a n n o u n c e d o n t o d a y ’s h e a r i n g t h a t I w i ll b e a p p e a r in g o n t h e C o m m i s s i o n o n Fr id a y. ” CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : “ I c o n f ir m t h a t I h a v e o n l y r e c e iv e d Page 177 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 s u m m o n s o n 3 F e b r u a r y 2 0 2 0 a n d I d id w r it e to t h e in v e s t i g a t in g t e a m th a t I w i ll b e m e e t in g m y l a w y e r to respond to the summons regarding appearing on t h e C o m m is s i o n . A s I s tr o n g ly b e li e v e th a t I a m n o t t h e r e l e v a n t p e r s o n to a p p e a r e s p e c i a l l y o n t h e m a t t e r s l is t e d i n t h e s u m m o n s . d e c is i o n s o f t h e B o a r d . They were the I have since written a s t a te m e n t a d d r e s s i n g t h o s e i t e ms a n d I h a v e n e v e r agreed to appear …” 10 A p o l o g i e s . T h a t is w h a t h a p p e n s w h e n y o u a r e w o r k i n g w i th a s c r e e n t h a t y o u d o n o t t o u c h a l l t h e ti m e . S h e s a y s : “ I h a v e s i n c e w r i t t e n a s t a t e m e n t a d d r e s s in g t h o s e it e m s a n d I h a v e n e v e r a g r e e d t o a p p e a r o n t h e 7 t h a s i t w a s a n n o u n c e d to d a y o n T V. I h a v e m a d e a n a p p lic a ti o n to c r o s s - e x a m i n e M s S a m b o a n d I w i ll s t il l make an a p p l ic a t i o n to cross-examine M r H u m a n w h e n I r e s p o n d to t h e R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e . ” T h a t s h e r e c e iv e d i n r e s p e c t o f h i m . “I therefore request that such announcement be 20 c o r r e c t e d u n t il m y la w y e r r e s p o n d s to th e s u m m o n s . I h o p e y o u fi n d t h e a b o v e i n o r d e r. ” C h a ir, s o th e r e q u e s t w a s th a t i t b e c o m m u n i c a t e d . It h a s b e e n c o m m u n ic a te d . C h a ir, o u r s u b m i s s io n s a r e a s f o ll o w s : w e s u b m i t t h a t Ms M e m e l a ’s f a i lu r e to a g r e e t o a p p e a r is ir r e le v a n t . Ms M e m e l a h a s b e e n s e r v e d w it h a s u m m o n s a n d i t is a c r i m i n a l o ff e n c e u n d e r t h e Page 178 of 180 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 C o m m i s s i o n ’s A c t n o t t o a p p e a r a f te r h a v i n g b e e n s e r v e d w i t h t h e s u m m o n s f r o m t h is C o m m i s s io n . W e w ill o f c o u r s e t a k e i n t o a c c o u n t a n y r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s t h a t s h e p r o v i d e s to t h e C o m m i s s i o n a n d - a n d a d d r e s s t h e m b e f o r e y o u . P r o b a b ly i f w e o n ly r e c e iv e i t t o m o r r o w a t t h e c o m m e n c e m e n t o f - o f Fr id a y ’s h e a r i n g a n d i t is o u r p r o p o s a l th a t Ms M e m e l a a p p e a r o n Fr id a y t o d e a l w i th a n y a p p l ic a ti o n th a t s h e w is h e s t o b r in g i n r e l a ti o n t o t h a t s u m m o n s s o th a t i t c a n b e p r o p e r ly v e n til a t e d . CHAIRPERSON: Well if she has been served with a summons that says 10 s h e m u s t a p p e a r b e fo r e t h e C o m m i s s i o n o n Fr id a y. T h e n s h e is o b l ig e d to appear before … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: T h e C o m m i s s io n o n F r id a y u n l e s s s h e h a s g o o d c a u s e n o t t o d o s o . I n w h i c h c a s e s h e c a n n o t ju s t s t a y a t h o m e . S h e n e e d s t o ta k e s t e p s a n d I a m s u r e h e r l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s w il l a d v is e h e r w h a t - w h a t t o d o i f s h e h a s g o o d c a u s e n o t t o a p p e a r a n d s h e w i ll p u t u p h e r a p p lic a ti o n t o a c h i e v e a r e s u l t in t e r m s o f w h ic h s h e w o u l d n o t b e r e q u ir e d to a p p e a r o n Fr i d a y, b u t u n ti l th e s u m m o n s is w i t h d r a w n o r s e t a s i d e i t w o u l d r e m a i n a s o b li g a t o r y o n h e r to - t o a p p e a r o r t o 20 in it i a t e p r o c e e d i n g s th a t w o u l d e n s u r e t h a t s h e d o e s n o t c o m m i t a n - a n o ffe n c e o n Fr i d a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . Th a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . She - she is not represented. la w y e r s h e r e r e p r e s e n t h e r ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o t a s I h a v e i t t o d a y. N o . Page 179 of 180 None of the 05 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 207 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. N o . T h a t is - t h a t is fi n e . O k a y. W e w e a r e g o in g to a d j o u r n t h e n a n d to m o r r o w w e w i ll s t a r t a t 1 0 o ’ c lo c k . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 6 F E B R U A R Y 2 0 2 0 Page 180 of 180