C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

0 4 J U LY 2 0 1 9

D AY 1 2 7

20

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
P R O C E E D I N G S O N 4 J U LY 2 0 1 9
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : M o r n i n g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ar e y o u r e a d y ?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : W e a r e in d e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : C h a ir m a y Mr W i ll ia m M a t ji l a b e s w o r n
in ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u p le a s e a d m i n i s t e r th e o a t h o r a ff ir m a ti o n ?
10

R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : W i lli a m M o le f e
M a t jil a .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n s t o t a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

oath?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : N o .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s o l e m n l y s w e a r t h a t a ll th e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u w il l
20

g iv e w il l b e t h e tr u t h , t h e w h o le tr u t h a n d n o t h in g b u t t h e tr u t h , i f s o
p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d .
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ] :
God.
REGISTRAR: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Page 2 of 120

So help me

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h e C h a ir w i ll n o t e th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t o n e s e c o n d . Ye s t h a n k y o u .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h e C h a ir w il l n o t e

t h a t t h e r e is Mr M n e s e r i g h t n e x t t o M r M a t ji la .

M r M a t ji l a h a d

r e q u e s t e d f o r – t o – f o r a tr a n s l a to r i n S e ts w a n a in h o m e l a n g u a g e .
C h a ir w e h a v e a d o c u m e n t , a n o a t h o f o ffi c e f o r t h e in t e r p r e te r a n d I
b e g l e a v e to h a n d th a t u p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s l e t m e s e e . I s e e th a t t h e – t h a t t h i s o a t h r e l a te s
h i m p e r fo r m i n g h i s w o r k i n t h e M a g i s t r a t e ’s c o u r t s . I th i n k w e m u s t j u s t
10

d o th e o a th .

M r M n e s e p le a s e s ta n d u p . W h a t i s t h e – w h a t is M r

M a t jil a s la n g u a g e ? Is it S e ts w a n a ?
M R S TA N L E Y D U M I S A N I M N E S E : S e ts w a n a y e s .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Setswana?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

M r M n e s e I a m ju s t g o i n g t o a s k y o u a f e w

q u e s t io n s b e fo r e w e d o th e o a t h . O k a y. W h a t a r e y o u r f u ll n a m e s I s e e
h e r e it is – s i m p ly g iv e s i n i ti a l s S D M n e s e ?
M R S TA N L E Y D U M I S A N I M N E S E : S t a n l e y D u m i s a n i M n e s e C h a ir p e r o n
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A r e y o u p r o f ic i e n t in th e S e ts w a n a l a n g u a g e a n
E n g l is h l a n g u a g e a n d y o u a r e a b l e t o tr a n s l a te fr o m S e t s w a n a t o
E n g l is h a n d f r o m E n g li s h t o S e ts w a n a ?
M R S TA N L E Y D U M I S A N I M N E S E : Ye s Yo u r W o r s h ip – C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: And how long have you been going that?
M R S TA N L E Y D U M I S A N I M N E S E :

I am now in the Department for 32

Page 3 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
years.
CHAIRPERSON: For?
M R S TA N L E Y D U M I S A N I M N E S E : 3 2 y e a r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : 3 2 y e a r s a n d y o u h a v e b e e n in t e r p r e ti n g fr o m a m o n g
o th e r l a n g u a g e s S e t s w a n a t o E n g l is h a n d f r o m E n g l is h to S e ts w a n a ?
M R S TA N L E Y D U M I S A N I M N E S E : C o r r e c t s o C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y a lr i g h t .

g o i n g t o a d m i n is t e r t h e o a t h to y o u .

L e t u s d o t h e o a t h th e n .

I am

Mr S t a n l e y D u m i s a n i M n e s e d o

y o u s w e a r th a t y o u a r e p r o f ic ie n t in S e t s w a n a a n d E n g li s h a n d t h a t y o u
10

a r e a b l e t o tr a n s l a te fr o m S e t s w a n a to E n g l is h a n d fr o m E n g lis h t o
S e ts w a n a a n d th a t y o u h a v e d o n e s o f o r m a n y y e a r s i n t h e M a g is tr a te ’s
c o u r ts i n S o u t h A fr ic a a n d y o u h a v e n o o b je c t io n to ta k i n g t h e o a t h . I f
y o u – y o u r a n s w e r is y e s t o a ll o f t h is p l e a s e s a y y e s a n d r a is e y o u r
r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d .
M R S TA N L E Y D U M I S A N I M N E S E : In d e e d s o , y e s , s o h e l p m e G o d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Yo u a r e d u ly s w o r n in . T h a n k y o u .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ye s .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h e Ex h ib i ts t h a t w e

20

w i ll b e r e f e r e n c i n g t o C h a ir is E x h i b i t F F1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: FF4.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: And FF6.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja thank you.

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : F r o m t h e o n s e t w e w i ll b e d e a l in g w it h
F F 6 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

M r M a t ji la ’s c o n f ir m a t o r y a ffi d a v i t i s

la b e l le d Ex h i b it F F 6 .3 w h ic h s ta r ts o n p a g i n a t e d p a g e 11 .

M r M a tj il a

are you there?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Mr M a tj il a is th a t y o u r c o n fir m a t o r y

a ffi d a v i t y o u s e e in fr o n t o f y o u ?
10

M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ] :

Ye s .

Indeed

so.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e s e c o n d . Ye s t h a n k y o u .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSH ELE:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Mr M a t ji la is th a t

y o u r s ig n a t u r e a t t h e b o tt o m o f p a g e 11 ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s i n d e e d .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

A n d i f y o u t u r n to t h e n e x t p a g e o n

p a g e 1 2 i s t h a t y o u r s i g n a t u r e in t h e m i d d l e o f th e p a g e ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : T h a t is tr u e .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A n d y o u d e p o s e d to t h is a ffi d a v i t o n th e
20

26th of June 2019?
MR

WILLIAM

MOLEFE

M AT J I L A

[through

i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

Ye s

C h a ir p e r s o n .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSH ELE:

M r M a t ji l a a r e y o u s a t is fi e d w i t h t h e

c o n te n ts o f t h i s c o n fi r m a to r y a ff i d a v i t ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s .

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A n d t h e c o n te n ts a r e tr u e a n d c o r r e c t
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M A R T J I L A [ t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : m r Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

M r M a tj il a w h e r e a r e y o u c u r r e n tly

employed
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I LA [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

S t a te Vi s i t

Protocol DIRCO.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A n d w h a t a r e y o u r f u n c ti o n s ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ] :

I a m d e a li n g

w i t h t h e Pr e s id e n t’s p la n e s a n d t h e M i n is t e r s .
10

A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : S o r r y M r M a t jil a c o u l d y o u j u s t t a lk u p
a li t t le b i t l o u d e r.
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

P r e s i d e n ts ,

M i n is t e r s a n d D e p u t y Pr e s i d e n ts . W h e n t h e y a r e t o c o m e a n d l a n d in
S o u th A f r ic a t h e y w i ll s e n d a r e q u e s t t o D I R C O a d d r e s s e d A t t e n ti o n M r
M a t jil a b y m e a n s o f a n o te v e r b a l .
ADV

MPHO

RASIVH ETSHELE:

Mr

M a t jil a

you

have

s u b m it t e d

d o c u m e n ts t h a t y o u w o r k w i th a t D I R C O in t e r m s o f t h e n o n - v e r b a l . I f I
m a y C h a ir r e f e r y o u to th e a n n e x u r e s t h a t M r M a t ji la h a s – h a s b r o u g h t
f o r th .
20

C a n I t u r n – y o u r – b r i n g y o u r a tt e n ti o n t o p a g e 1 6 o f M r

M a t jil a ’s d o c u m e n t ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l t e l l m e w h a t E x h i b i t is I d o n o t k n o w M r M a t ji l a ’s
d o c u m e n ts .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : It is E x h i b i t – s o r r y – a p o l o g ie s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : It is E x h i b i t F F6 . 3 .

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
CHAIRPERSON: FF6 did you say .3?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

. 3 s o it i s u n d e r Ex h ib i t F F 6 a n d i t is

t h e la s t … .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t h e e x h i b it is F F 6 .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n y o u w a n t m e to g o t o d iv id e r n u m b e r 3 .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: Thank you.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u s a y E x h i b i t F F6 . 3 I w il l n o t f i n d th a t Ex h ib i t.
Is E x h i b i t F F6 a n d y o u m u s t g o u n d e r t h e d iv i d e r n u m b e r 3 .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : In d e e d s o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y o r y o u te ll m e w h a t th e p a g e is o f t h a t e x h ib i t .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : It is 1 6 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y I h a v e g o t – ja I h a v e g o t h i s a ffi d a v i t b u t
h is a ffi d a v it ju s t r e f e r s t o t h e r e p o r t .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s a p o l o g ie s .
CHAIRPERSON: It does not…
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A p o l o g ie s , a p o lo g ie s , a p o l o g i e s C h a ir i f

20

I m a y j u s t – j u s t g o b a c k t o t h e a ffi d a v i t . A p o l o g i e s fo r t h a t . M r M a t ji la
in y o u r a ff i d a v i t i f I c o u l d t a k e y o u t o t h e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h o f y o u r
c o n fir m a t o r y a ffi d a v it . T h a t w o u l d b e o n p a g e 11 .
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s I s e e t h a t .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Yo u s t a t e t h a t th e c o n t e n t s in t h e

c lu s te r r e p o r t is s u e d a f t e r t h e s u b s e q u e n t l a n d in g o f t h e a ir c r a f t

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
c o m p il e d t h a t a ll t h e c o n t e n t s i n th a t d o c u m e n t t h a t r e l a t e s t o y o u is
tr u e a n d c o r r e c t .
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ] : Ye s t h e o n e s
that were on my name.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h e p a r a g r a p h s t h a t I w o u l d a l s o li k e t o
b r i n g t o t h e C h a i r ’s a t t e n t io n i s i n Ex h ib it F F 1 t h a t w o u ld b e t h e
s t a te m e n t o f M s S i n d a n e . A n a t t a c h m e n t u n d e r t h e s e c o n d f o l d e r.
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : W h a t p a g e ?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : F F 1 M r M a tj il a .
10

M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : F F 1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e p o r t s t a r ts a t p a g e 5 o f Ex h ib i t F F 1 .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s C h a ir. I t h i n k M r M a t j il a m i g h t j u s t
b e s li g h tl y l o s t . M r M a tj il a y o u w i ll f in d th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v e y o u n o t s h o w n h i m w h ic h o n e i s F F 1 , w h i c h o n e
if F F 6 ?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

We have indeed.

T h e f o l d e r t h a t is

r ig h t th e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
20

If I could just ask my colleague Ms

[i n d is t in c t] ju s t t o a s s is t .
CHAIRPERSON:

L o o k o u ts id e – l o o k o n t h e c o v e r p a g e t o s e e w h a t

Exhibit it is.
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ] :
one. We got it.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : O k a y.

Page 8 of 120

Oh it is this

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay well maybe you go and show him each one of

t h e e x h i b i t s s o t h a t w e d o n o t w a s t e ti m e a s w e g o o n .
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

S h o w h i m w h i c h o n e i s E x h i b i t F F 4 , Ex h i b it F F 5 ,

E x h i b i t F F6 , E x h i b i t F F 1 s o t h a t …
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w il l n o t b e c o n f u s e d .
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ] :
10

O k a y.

O k a y.

Ye s I h a v e g o t i t C h a ir p e r s o n .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSH ELE:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir f o r y o u r i n d u lg e n c e .

M r M a tji l a .
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s M a ’a m .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

A n d C h a ir i f I c o u ld j u s t b r i n g y o u r

a tt e n ti o n t o p a g e 1 2 o f t h a t d o c u m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

M r M a tj il a y o u a r e m e n ti o n e d i n

p a r a g r a p h s 2 . 1 . 1 8 , 2 . 1 .1 9 .
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s .
20

A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A n d 2 .1 . 2 0 .
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : In t h e s e d o c u m e n t s . H a v e y o u r e a d t h e
c o n te n ts o f t h o s e d o c u m e n ts ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A n d y o u c o n fir m t h e c o r r e c t n e s s o f it ?

Page 9 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

C h a ir I a m n o t p a r ti c u l a r l y s u r e i f –

b e c a u s e t h is d o c u m e n t h a s b e e n l e d i n e v id e n c e y e s te r d a y i f y o u w a n t
u s t o e i t h e r u n d e r y o u r a p p r o v a l to e i th e r r e a d i t o n r e c o r d o r j u s t g i v e
a s h o r t s y n o p s is o f w h a t i s c o n t a i n e d in t h e s e p a r a g r a p h s ?
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e l e t u s d o i t t h is w a y.

M r M a tj il a y o u r r o l e i n

t h is w h o le in c i d e n t s e e m s t o h a v e b e e n a l i mi t e d o n e , is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M A R T J I LA [ t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ] :

Ye s , y e s

C h a ir p e r s o n .
10

CHAIRPERSON:
in c i d e n t

which

Can you just tell me what your role was in this
led

to

the

la n d i n g

of

a

commercial

a ir c r a f t

at

Wa t e r k l o o f ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ] :

I was in the

o ffic e Yo u r W o r s h i p w h e n I r e c e i v e d a c a l l fr o m A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y b e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d l e t m e a s k th is . A t t h e ti m e
o f t h i s i n c i d e n t w h a t p o s i t io n d i d y o u h o l d t h e n ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : F o r e i g n A ff a ir s
A s s is ta n t Yo u r W o r s h i p w h i c h I a m c u r r e n tl y h o l d i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e s t ill h o l d i n g t h e s a m e p o s i t io n ?
20

MR

WILLIAM

MOLEFE

M AT J I L A

[through

i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

Ye s

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w e r e y o u r d u t ie s i n t h a t p o s it i o n w h ic h m a y b e
r e l e v a n t t o th is i n c i d e n t ?
MR

WILLIAM

MOLEFE

M AT J I LA

[ t hr o u g h

i n t e r pr e t e r ] :

I

was

p e r f o r m i n g my d a i ly d u t ie s Yo u r W o r s h i p w h ic h I w a s s u p p o s e d t o a t t h e

Page 10 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
o ffic e .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a w h a t w e r e t h e m a i n f u n c ti o n s a t t a c h e d t o th e

p o s i ti o n y o u h e l d ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I LA [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

A s s is ti n g i n

m a k i n g p a s s p o r ts , n o t e v e r b a l s f o r t h e o t h e r d e p a r t m e n t s Yo u r W o r s h ip
a n d th e P r e s i d e n c i e s D e p a r t m e n t Yo u r W o r s h i p .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u r – p a r t o f y o u r d u ty w a s t o p r e p a r e n o t e

v e r b a l ’s ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s
10

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h a t w e r e th e c ir c u m s t a n c e s u n d e r w h ic h y o u

w e r e r e q u ir e d t o p r e p a r e n o te v e r b a l ’s ’ ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

The note

v e r b a l ’s Yo u r W o r s h i p a r e w h e n o t h e r d e p a r t m e n ts a r e a s k i n g fo r
a s s is t a n c e w h e n t h e y w e r e a c t u a ll y a s k i n g t o m a k e s o m e v is a s Yo u r
Worship.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t w a s y o u r r o le in t h a t c o n n e c te d y o u to n o te

v e r b a l ’s ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I LA [ t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : I n c o n n e c t i o n
w i t h t h is i s s u e o f …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o g e n e r a ll y s p e a k in g .
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ] :

I a s s i s t w i th

t h e n o t e v e r b a l ’s lik e i f t h e P r e s i d e n t i a l [i n d is t in c t] is s u e s Yo u r W o r s h i p
a r e a s k i n g fo r th e n o t e v e r b a l ’s I th e n p r e p a r e t h e n o t e v e r b a l h a n d i t
o v e r t o th e m a n d t h e y w i ll t a k e t h e m to th e e m b a s s i e s Yo u r W o r s h i p in
o r d e r t o g e t th e v is a s Yo u r W o r s h i p .

Page 11 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s M r K o l o a n e y o u r i m m e d i a t e s u p e r io r ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

Ye s Mr

K o lo a n e w a s m y s u p e r io r a t t h a t p o i n t i n ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o t h a n k y o u . N o w y o u c a n g o b a c k t o t e l li n g m e
w h a t y o u r r o l e w a s in t h is – i n th is – i n r e g a r d t o th is i n c i d e n t ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : O k a y.
ADV MPHO RASIVH ETSHELE:

S o r r y I h a v e j u s t r e c e iv e d w o r d fr o m

t h e t e c h n ic i a n s . M r M a t j il a c a n y o u j u s t m o v e t h e m ic r o p h o n e t o w a r d s
you.
10

M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : O k a y.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE: Thank you.
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

I r e c e iv e d a

c a l l fr o m A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e to a s k t h e I n d i a n D e le g a ti o n a b o u t th e
o v e r fl ig h t c le a r a n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y, I a m s o r r y j u s t s t a r t a g a in I m i s s e d

something in that sentence.
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

I r e c e iv e d a

c a l l fr o m A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e t o a s s i s t t h e I n d i a n w it h th e c l e a r a n c e .
A few minutes…
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e I n d i a n g o v e r n m e n t o r …
MR

WILLIAM

MOLEFE

M AT J I L A

[through

i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

Ye s

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y c o n ti n u e .
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : I th e n fi n i s h e d
s p e a k i n g t o Mr K o l o a n e f o r t h a t s p e c if ic p o in t i n ti m e .

Page 12 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember on what date that was when you got
t h is in s t r u c ti o n fr o m h i m ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ] :

No I am not

q u i te c e r t a i n Yo u r W o r s h i p a b o u t t h e d a te .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y w e l l th e i n c i d e n t h a p p e n e d i n – t h e l a n d i n g o f

t h e a ir c r a f t h a p p e n e d o n t h e 3 0 A p r il 2 0 1 3 a n d i t a p p e a r s t h a t t h e
d is c u s s io n s a n d p r e p a r a ti o n s s ta r t e d h a p p e n i n g e a r ly o r m a y h a v e
s t a r t e d e a r ly in A p r il b u t if y o u d o w i s h t o r e fr e s h y o u r m e m o r y i f t h e r e
is a d o c u m e n t w h e r e y o u k n o w y o u c a n s e e t h e d a t e .
10

M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : O h y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : F e e l fr e e t o h a v e a l o o k .
M R W I L L IA M M O L E F E M AT J I LA [ t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ] : I t w a s o n t h e
9 t h o f A p ir l.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y s o h e – t h e in s tr u c ti o n t h a t M r K o l o a n e g a v e

y o u w a s t o a s s i s t w it h th e c le a r a n c e f o r t h e I n d i a n g o v e r n m e n t?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t d id y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t to e n t a i l t h a t i n s tr u c ti o n
t o e n t a i l i f h e s a y s , p le a s e a s s is t w i t h t h e c l e a r a n c e f o r t h e In d i a n
g o v e r n m e n t , w h a t d id y o u u n d e r s t a n d th a t t o r e q u ir e y o u t o d o ?
20

M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I LA [ t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

Seeing that

t h e A m b a s s a d o r i s s e n i o r t o m e t h e r e a r e a c t u a ll y u s e d t o r e c e iv e s o m e
n o t e v e r b a l. A n d th e n h e w i ll th e n h a n d o v e r to m e t o p r o c e s s t h e – f o r
the clearance.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y l e t m e – I a m s o r r y le t m e g e t th a t s e n t e n c e

c o r r e c t ly. W h a t i s i t t h a t h e w il l g iv e to y o u is t h a t t h e n o t e v e r b a l ?

Page 13 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
M R W I L L IA M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ] :

Ja they are

s u p p o s e d to g i v e m e t h e n o t e v e r b a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t w o u l d y o u d o w it h th e n o t e v e r b a l?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : I c h e c k i f t h e
s a i d n o t e v e r b a l c o n t a in s a l l t h e in f o r m a t i o n t h a t w e n e e d . I n t h e n o te
v e r b a l t h e y m u s t s p e c i f y Yo u r W o r s h ip w h o i s c o m i n g t o v i s i t ? W h a t is
t h e p e r s o n c o m in g t o d o in S o u t h A f r i c a o r t h e p u r p o s e o f th e v is i t? I s
h e c o m i n g to m e e t t h e P r e s i d e n t o r is h e c o m in g o n h is o w n c a p a c it y o r
o n a p r iv a t e v i s i t ?
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s c o n ti n u e a n d t e l l m e w h a t y o u d o i f i t c o n t a i n s

t h a t th is in f o r m a ti o n o r d i ffe r e n t i n fo r m a t i o n .
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A [ t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s i f th e n o t e
v e r b a l s t a t e s t h a t th e Pr e s i d e n t fr o m a n o t h e r c o u n t r y is c o m i n g i n to
m e e t t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n P r e s i d e n t w e c h e c k i t . O u r p o li t ic a l d e s k m u s t
k n o w o r m y d ir e c t o r m u s t k n o w t h a t t h e r e is a n o t h e r Pr e s i d e n t fr o m
o u t s i d e t h e c o u n tr y w h o is c o m i n g i n . F o r a n y P r e s i d e n t w h o is c o mi n g
in t o S o u t h A fr ic a o r a s t a te v is i t t h e y a r e s u p p o s e d t o a s s ig n a p r o t o c o l
o ffic e r f o r th a t s p e c i fi c v i s i t .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

A n d w h o d o e s th e a s s ig n in g – w h o a s s i g n s t h e

[i n d is t in c t] . { I n te r p r e t e r s p e a k i n g o v e r C h a ir ]
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I LA [ t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :

M y d ir e c t o r

Yo u r W o r s h i p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h o w a s y o u r d ir e c t o r a t t h e ti m e ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I LA [ t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ] :
M a s o n b u t s h e w a s o u t o f t h e c o u n tr y.

Page 14 of 120

It was Ms

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
CHAIRPERSON:

I n h e r a b s e n c e w h o w a s p e r f o r m i n g h e r d u ti e s a s

d ir e c t o r ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ms Mdledle

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. C o n ti n u e .
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A

(through

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

The

( in d is ti n c t) i s s u p p o s e d t o a ls o b e i n v o lv e d i f t h e r e is a n y v i s i t b u t i n
t h is m a t t e r o r i n t h i s p r o b l e m t h a t w e a r e h a v i n g n o w a l l o f th o s e d i d
not happen.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I a m s o r r y. J u s t r e p e a t t h a t. I m is s e d t h a t.
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) :

The problem

t h a t w e a r e h a v i n g o f t h is In d ia n v is i t t h e r e i s n o n e o f t h o s e t h a t I h a v e
s t a te d th a t h a p p e n e d y o u r w o r s h i p .
CHAIRPERSON:

Is t h a t t h e u s u a l p r o c e d u r e s t h a t a r e n o r m a l ly

f o ll o w e d ? Is th a t w h a t y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A

(through

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s

C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e n o r m a l ly th e D ir e c t o r i s t h e o n e w h o w il l c a l l m e i f
he got the formal request.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : B u t w i t h t h is I
n e v e r r e c e iv e d a n y t h i n g . E v e n m y D ir e c t o r d i d n o t k n o w a n y th i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Is th a t r e q u e s t s e p a r a t e fr o m t h e n o te v e r b a l

t h a t w e a r e ta lk i n g a b o u t o r i s i t t h e s a m e t h i n g th a t w h e n – w h e n y o u
say a request?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : N o . T h e y a r e

Page 15 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
separate.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h e y a r e t w o s e p a r a t e th i n g s ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A

(through

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s

C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i f th e r e i s g o i n g t o b e a v is i t b y a H e a d o f S ta t e

fr o m a n o t h e r c o u n t r y o n o ff ic i a l b u s i n e s s t o m e e t w i t h th e P r e s i d e n t o f
S o u th A fr ic a y o u s a y t h e r e w o u l d b e a n o te v e r b a l th a t s h o u ld b e is s u e d
– t h a t s h o u l d b e a v a i la b le ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A
10

(through

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o in t h i s c a s e y o u s a y t h e r e w a s n o n o t e v e r b a l a n d
t h e r e w a s n o r e q u e s t a s w e ll . I s t h a t w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A

(through

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s

C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: And the request would be a request for what that you
s a y w a s n o t th e r e i n th is c a s e ?
I N T E R P R E T E R : P a r d o n . I d i d n o t h e a r t h a t.
CHAIRPERSON: The request …
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A : Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t y o u s a y w a s n o t t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n a

r e q u e s t f o r w h a t?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

The request

C h a ir p e r s o n th a t I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t is a c tu a l ly th e n o t e v e r b a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , I – I t h o u g h t e a r li e r o n w h e n I a s k e d y o u w h e th e r
it is a s e p a r a te – t h e r e q u e s t a n d t h e n o te v e r b a l w e r e s e p a r a t e th i n g s .

Page 16 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
I th o u g h t y o u s a id t h e y w e r e s e p a r a t e t h in g s .
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A

( t hr o u g h

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

I

m is u n d e r s t o o d .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , o k a y.

S o w h e n y o u ta lk a b o u t th e r e q u e s t a n d

t h e n o t e v e r b a l y o u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t t h e s a m e th in g ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A

(through

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a l r i g h t . S o n o w w e k n o w t h a t o n e o f t h e th i n g s
t h a t y o u s a y w o u l d n o r m a ll y h a p p e n t h a t d id n o t h a p p e n w a s th a t th e –
10

t h e r e s h o u l d h a v e b e e n a n o te v e r b a l b u t o n t h is c a s e t h e r e w a s n o
note verbal?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A

(through

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t o th e r s te p o r p r o c e d u r e o r i t e m in t h e p r o c e d u r e
t h a t y o u – w a s n o r m a ll y f o l l o w e d w h ic h d id h a p p e n i n th is c a s e ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

At the State

v is it w h e n th e y a s s i g n t h e P r o t o c o l O ff ic e r h e m u s t a r r a n g e s o m e
a c c o m m o d a ti o n , tr a n s p o r t a n d t h e v e n u e f o r t h e m e e ti n g s . In t h is p o in t
in ti m e a ll o f t h o s e d i d n o t h a p p e n .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h o w a s t h e Pr o t o c o l O ffi c e r a t t h e ti m e w h o

w o u ld h a v e p e r fo r m e d – w h o w o u l d h a v e d o n e t h a t i f t h i s w a s a S t a t e
v is it a n d t h e r e w a s g o in g to b e a H e a d o f S t a te c o m i n g t o S o u th A fr ic a ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

A s fa r a s t h e

S t a te v is i t s t h e r e a r e q u i t e a n u m b e r o f u s . W e a r e m a n y a n d w e a r e
r o ta t in g C h a ir p e r s o n .

Page 17 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a P r o t o c o l O ff ic e r w h o w o u ld
h a v e b e e n a s s ig n e d f o r th is p a r t ic u l a r tr ip ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A

(through

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s

C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h o w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e p e r s o n t o a s s i g n a

P r o t o c o l O ff ic e r ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : D ir e c to r - th a t
is n o w my D i r e c to r y o u r w o r s h i p .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I n h e r a b s e n c e w h o d id y o u s a y w a s p e r f o r m i n g h e r

d u t ie s ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A

(through

i n t e r pr e t e r ) :

Ms Noba Mdledle.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u a n d w h a t o th e r s t e p i n t h e p r o c e d u r e
t h a t w o u ld n o r m a ll y h a v e a p p li e d t h a t d i d n o t a p p ly t h a t w a s n o t
in v o lv e d in t h i s c a s e ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : N o r m a lly w h e n
t h e r e a r e in c o m i n g v is it s i n t o th e c o u n tr y t h e r e w i ll b e m e e ti n g th a t
m u s t b e h e l d t o p r e p a r e f o r t h e v is i t . In t h is y o u r w o r s h ip n o m e e ti n g
d i d ta k e p l a c e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O : O k a y a n d w h o w o u ld c o n v e n e th o s e m e e ti n g s ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

T h e P r o to c o l

O ff ic e r a s s i g n e d f o r t h a t v i s i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , t h a n k s a n d t h e n w h a t o t h e r p r o c e d u r a l s te p th a t
w o u ld n o r m a l ly h a v e b e e n ta k e n t h a t w a s n o t t a k e n i n t h i s i n s t a n c e ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : N o r m a l ly I a m

Page 18 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
t h e o n e w h o w i ll s e n d t h e n o te v e r b a l t o t h e a ir fo r c e r e q u e s t i n g f o r th e
c le a r a n c e b u t i n th is m a t t e r I w a s s u r p r is e d t h a t th a t n o t e v e r b a l w e n t
d ir e c t t o t h e a ir fo r c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d it w a s n o t s e n t b y y o u t h is ti m e ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A

(through

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s

C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Who sent it?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

C h a ir p e r s o n

w e d i d n o t r e c e iv e t h e n o t e v e r b a l a s u s u a l a s w e a r e s u p p o s e d t o . I
10

o n ly r e c e iv e d a c a ll fr o m t h e A m b a s s a d o r.

T h e n t h e y ju s t s e n t m e a

s h o r t o r s m a l l m e s s a g e a n d t h e n I fo r w a r d e d t h a t m e s s a g e to t h e a i r
force.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, t h a n k y o u . D o y o u w a n t t o t a k e it f r o m t h e r e ?
Yo u h a v e a n i d e a w h a t my in t e r e s t … ?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s i n d e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e m y i n te r e s t is ? O k a y.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b u t I th i n k j u s t c o m p le t e – l e t u s – le t u s b e s u r e
a l l th e p r o c e d u r a l s t e p s t h a t h e s a y s u s e d t o b e t a k e n t h a t h e s a y s
20

w e r e n o t ta k e n . N o w w e k n o w t h a t o n h is e v id e n c e o n e o f t h e m is t h e
n o t e v e r b a l a n d th a t w a s s a id b y p r e v i o u s w i t n e s s e s . I t w a s n o t t h e r e .
H e s a y s t h a t t h e o th e r i s t h a t a Pr o to c o l O ff ic e r w o u l d b e a s s i g n e d to
t h e tr ip . T h a t w a s n o t d o n e .
He has mentioned that he would be the one who would
n o r m a l ly s e n d t h e n o t e v e r b a l to t h e a ir fo r c e .

Page 19 of 120

There was not note

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
v e r b a l . H e d i d n o t s e n d t h a t b u t h e s a y s t h e r e w a s a m e s s a g e th a t h e
w a s g i v e n – a s m a ll m e s s a g e a s h e p u t i t w h ic h h e p a s s e d o n .

Just

f o ll o w u p t o s e e w h e t h e r t h e r e a r e o t h e r p r o c e d u r a l s t e p s t h a t h e k n o w
– k n o w s w o u l d n o r m a ll y b e t a k e n b u t w e r e n o t ta k e n a n d t h e n t a k e i t
fr o m t h e r e .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

M r M a tj il a w h e n

A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e c a ll e d y o u w h a t d o c u m e n t s d id y o u h a v e r e l a ti n g
t o t h e I n d i a n d e l e g a t io n ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) :
10

Th e r e w a s

a c t u a ll y n o d o c u m e n t t h a t I h a d o r r e c e iv e d f r o m t h e A m b a s s a d o r lik e
t h e n o t e v e r b a l i ts e lf .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

D id y o u r e c e iv e – M r M a tj il a d i d y o u

r e c e i v e a n y th i n g fr o m t h e a i r f o r c e ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

No, I did not

r e c e i v e a n y th i n g fr o m t h e a i r f o r c e .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Mr M a t ji la a m I c o r r e c t i n s a y i n g t h a t

a l l y o u h a d r e c e i v e d i s a c a ll o n b e h a l f a n d fr o m A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
20

A n d Mr M a tji l a t h e c l e a r a n c e n u m b e r

t h a t w a s is s u e d fr o m t h e a ir f o r c e w a s d o n e w i th o u t a n y p r o p e r
n o n - v e r b a l o r a u t h o r i s a t io n fr o m D I R C O ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s t h a t is

tr u e .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, did you want to add something?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s . I w a n t e d

Page 20 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
t o s h o w C h a i r p e r s o n th e c le a r a n c e t h a t I w o u ld n o r m a l ly r e c e i v e fr o m
t h e a ir f o r c e .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : C h a ir t h a t w o u l d b e p a g in a t e d p a g e 1 5
of …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y b e fo r e w e – w e d o t h a t . M r M a tj il a l e t u s
ju s t c o m p l e t e th e p a r t t h a t I w a n t e d t o c o m p l e t e .

In terms of the

p r o c e d u r e t h a t w a s n o r m a l ly fo ll o w e d w h e n t h e r e w a s a H e a d o f S t a t e
w h o w a s g o in g t o v is i t S o u t h A fr ic a h a v e y o u f i n is h e d te ll in g m e t h e
p r o c e d u r a l s te p s t h a t w o u ld n o r m a ll y b e t a k e n b u t w e r e n o t t a k e n o n
10

t h is o c c a s i o n o r a r e t h e r e s ti ll s o m e t h a t y o u w a n t t o te ll m e –
p r o c e d u r a l s t e p s th a t w e r e n o t t a k e n .
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A

(through

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s

C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n t h e Pr e s id e n t fr o m a n o t h e r c o u n tr y i s c o mi n g to v is it
I w i ll g e t t h e n o t e v e r b a l, w h ic h I w il l s c a n a n d t h e n s e n d i t t o t h e a i r
f o r c e . Fr o m t h e r e w e w i ll w a i t f o r tw o o r t h r e e d a y s a n d t h e n t h e y w i ll
t h e n s e n d m e t h e a p p r o v a l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t hr o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) :

T h e n I w i ll

s e n d i t b a c k t o t h e E m b a s s y.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

W o u l d t h a t n o r m a l ly c o m p l e te y o u r r o le fo r a

S t a te v is i t?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A

(through

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s

C h a ir p e r s o n . A f t e r I g e t th e a p p r o v a l fr o m th e a ir f o r c e t h a t s h a ll h a v e
c o m p le t e d m y r o l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. Ye s , y o u w a n t to …

Page 21 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

DIRCO or my

D ir e c t o r y o u r w o r s h ip w e d o n o t a p p r o v e a n y fl i g h t c l e a r a n c e s .

We

o n ly f o r w a r d i t t o t h e a ir fo r c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , y e s . O k a y. N o w in t h is c a s e y o u d i d n o t f o r w a r d
t o th e a ir f o r c e a n y n o t e v e r b a l b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s k n o w n b u t y o u s a y
y o u a ls o d id n o t o r y o u f o r w a r d e d a s m a l l m e s s a g e a s y o u p u t i t?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e a ir f o r c e . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A
10

(through

i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

Ye s

the

message that I sent your worship was to show that as the Ambassador
is o u r H e a d o f t h e s e c t i o n t h a t t h e r e is n o w a y t h a t I c a n r e f u s e t o d o
t h e j o b o r th e d u ti e s t h a t I w a s g iv e n .

I t w a s t o s h o w t h a t I d id

s o m e t h i n g o r t h e d u ty a s in s t r u c t e d . O n t h e e m a i l t h a t I s e n t t o t h e a ir
force there were three things.

A s s is t , ( i n d is ti n c t) a n d f o r y o u r

in f o r m a ti o n a n d n o a p p r o v a l y o u r w o r s h i p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u w a n t t o t a k e i t fr o m t h e r e ?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s C h a ir. J u s t t o a s s is t Mr M a t ji la is
t a lk in g t o a d o c u m e n t t h a t is i n F F 4 C h a i r fr o m p a g e s 1 9 8 . M r M a t ji l a i t
is t h e b i g f il e j u s t r ig h t n e x t t o y o u .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s I a m

there.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : I n th e m i d d l e o f t h a t p a g e o n 1 - 9 - 8 t h a t
is a n e m a i l f r o m y o u t o t h e a ir – t o th e a ir f o r c e ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .

Page 22 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A n d t h e m e s s a g e t h a t y o u fo r w a r d e d is
on page 1-9-9.
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

C h a i r c a n w e r e a d j u s t th a t s h o r t

m e s s a g e i n to t h e r e c o r d ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . L e t h i m – ja – y o u – y o u c a n r e a d i t.
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
“ D e a r W il li a m , a s p e r o u r a s p e r y o u r d is c u s s i o n
with

Ambassador Koloane

w i th

regards

to

the

r e q u e s t f o r f li g h t c l e a r a n c e s a n d la n d i n g a t th e

10

Wa t e r k l o o f A F B f o r t h e I n d i a n d e le g a ti o n k i n d ly n o t e
t h a t A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e t e l e p h o n i c a ll y a p p r o v e d
the request, regards.”
A n d t h i s w a s s e n t f r o m – o n b e h a l f o f A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e o ffi c e o f t h e
D D G S t a t e Pr o t o c o l o n 9 A p r i l 2 0 1 3 0 8 : 3 3 a m .
CHAIRPERSON: Well let us – let us go …
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s t h a t is

tr u e .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Did – have you had a chance to interpret the actual

t e x t o f th e m e s s a g e Mr I n te r p r e t e r. I t s a y s
“ D e a r W il li a m , a s p e r o u r a s p e r y o u r d is c u s s i o n
with

Ambassador Koloane

w i th

regards

to

the

r e q u e s t f o r f li g h t c l e a r a n c e s a n d la n d i n g a t th e
Wa t e r k l o o f A F B f o r t h e I n d i a n d e le g a ti o n k i n d ly n o t e
t h a t A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e t e l e p h o n i c a ll y a p p r o v e d

Page 23 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
the request.”
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

T h a t is q u i t e

c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o d i d y o u r e c e iv e t h is m e s s a g e f r o m ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h

i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

Fr o m

the

A m b a s s a d o r ’s p u b l ic a s s is ta n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o w …
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Or Personal

A s s is ta n t y o u r w o r s h ip .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Now

th e

request

–

the

request

that

A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e w a s s a i d t o h a v e t e l e p h o n ic a lly a p p r o v e d w h a t
request was that and who had it come from ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : A s f a r a s t h i s
message

is

concerned

your

worship

I

la s tly

spoke

to

A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e a n d h i s PA a n d th a t w a s i t y o u r w o r s h ip .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l t h e – t h e – th is e m a il w a s a d d r e s s e d t o y o u .

Therefore one would expect that you would understand what it says and
if y o u d i d n o t u n d e r s ta n d y o u w o u ld g o b a c k t o t h e m .
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A
20

(through

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o my q u e s ti o n is w h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s
o f w h a t r e q u e s t Mr K o l o a n e ’s PA w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t i n t h i s e m a i l t h a t h e
– that she said Mr Koloane had approved.
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A

(through

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Look

C h a ir p e r s o n I a s k e d fo r s o m e d o c u m e n t a ti o n w h ic h I c o u ld n o t r e c e i v e

Page 24 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
a n d t h a t is w h e n I a s k e d – I s p o k e t o t h e PA a n d I t o ld h e r s e e i n g t h a t I
d i d n o t r e c e iv e a n y d o c u m e n ts th e r e i s n o t h i n g t h a t I c a n d o .
CHAIRPERSON:

I s t h a t w h a t y o u s a i d t o Mr K o l o a n e ’s PA a f t e r

r e c e i v i n g t h i s e m a il a t p a g e 1 - 9 - 9 ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A m I c o r r e c t t o ta k e t h a t t o m e a n t h a t y o u d i d n o t

u n d e r s t a n d w h a t r e q u e s t s h e w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t i n th e e m a i l?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Do you remember what documents you asked for in

r e s p o n s e t o t h is e m a i l w h e n y o u s p o k e t o M r K o l o a n e ’s PA ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t d o c u m e n ts – w h a t d o c u m e n ts d i d y o u a s k fo r ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A

(through

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

d o c u m e n ts t h a t I r e q u e s te d w a s a n o t e v e r b a l .

The

O n th e n o t e v e r b a l

t h e r e s h a ll b e a fl ig h t p la n o r fl i g h t d e t a il s . T h o s e w e r e t h e th in g s t h a t
I w a s a s k i n g f o r s o th a t I c o u l d s e n d t h e m t o t h e a ir f o r c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t d i d Mr K o lo a n e ’s PA s a y w h e n y o u m a d e t h is

request?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :
20

After I asked

h e r to s e n d m e s o m e t h i n g in w r i ti n g y o u r w o r s h i p t h a t is w h e n s h e s e n t
m e t h is e m a il . T h a t w a s t h e l a s t ti m e I th e n s p o k e t o t h e m .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e d i s c u s s io n th a t y o u h a v e to ld m e a b o u t

b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d M r K o l o a n e ’s PA w h e n y o u a s k e d h e r fo r c e r t a in
d o c u m e n ts i n c l u d i n g th e n o te v e r b a l h a p p e n e d b e fo r e s h e s e n t y o u t h e
email at page 1-9-9.

Page 25 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A

(through

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t h a d p r o m p t e d t h a t d is c u s s i o n b e t w e e n y o u a n d
M r K o l o a n e ’s PA ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

Because she

is t h e o n e th a t is c o n d u it b e t w e e n b o t h o f u s . S h e is th e o n e t h a t w i ll
b e s e n d i n g u s m e s s a g e s a s w e a r e w o r k i n g t o g e t h e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u d i d s a y t h a t th e f ir s t t h in g t h a t , y o u r fi r s t

in v o lv e m e n t w a s w h e n M r K h o l o a n e a s k e d y o u t o a s s is t w it h th e
10

c le a r a n c e . I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
MR

WILLIAM

MOLEFE

M AT J I LA

( t hr o u g h

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s ,

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u s a i d th a t a t th a t s ta g e y o u d o n o t h a v e a n y
d o c u m e n t a ti o n r e la t in g t o t h i s v i s i t ?
MR

WILLIAM

MOLEFE

M AT J I LA

( t hr o u g h

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s ,

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d M r K h o l o a n e t e l l y o u t h e c o n v e r s a t i o n h e h a d w it h
y o u w h e t h e r th is w a s a v is i t b y H e a d o f S t a te o r b y d e p u t y P r e s i d e n t o f
a n o t h e r c o u n t r y o r a v is i t t h a t e n t a i l e d s o m e M in is t e r s ? D i d y o u t a l k t o
20

y o u a b o u t t h o s e d e t a ils ?
MR

WILLIAM

MOLEFE

M AT J I L A

(through

i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

No,

C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d h e s i m p ly s a y p le a s e a s s is t w i t h o b t a in in g a

c le a r a n c e fo r t h is In d ia n g o v e r n m e n t r e q u e s t o r e x a c tly h o w d o h e p u t
it t o m a k e s u r e y o u u n d e r s t o o d w h a t h e w a n te d y o u t o a s s i s t w i th ?

Page 26 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s , Yo u r

Worship.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d h e s a y t h i s w a s a v i s i t in v o lv in g a H e a d o f S t a t e
o r s o m e M in is t e r s o r Pr e s i d e n t f r o m a n o th e r c o u n tr y ? D i d h e s a y t h a t ?
MR

WILLIAM

MOLEFE

M AT J I L A

(through

i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

No,

C h a ir p e r s o n . H e ju s t s a id I m u s t a s s is t th e In d ia n d e le g a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h a t s t a g e , a t t h e s t a g e o f t h a t c o n v e r s a t i o n w it h
M r K h o lo a n e , d i d y o u k n o w w h a t In d ia n d e l e g a t io n h e w a s t a l k i n g
a b o u t?
10

MR

WILLIAM

MOLEFE

M AT J I L A

(through

i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

No,

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u a s k h i m f o r a n y i n fo r m a t i o n a b o u t t h is v is i t b y
t h is I n d i a n d e l e g a ti o n ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : N o .
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d y o u k n o w w h e r e t o fi n d i n f o r m a ti o n a b o u t t h e

I n d ia n d e l e g a t io n ? Is th a t w h y y o u d id n ’ t a s k b e c a u s e y o u k n e w w h e r e
y o u w o u l d fi n d t h e i n f o r m a t io n ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e w o u l d y o u f in d th e i n f o r m a ti o n ?
20

M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) :

As I h a v e

s t a te d th a t w h e n e v e r t h e r e is a S t a t e v is it w e g e t t h e n o te v e r b a l b u t if
t h e r e is n o n o te v e r b a l t h e r e i s n o w a y t h a t w e w o u l d k n o w th a t th e
I n d ia n d e l e g a ti o n o r t h e B r a z i li a n d e l e g a ti o n is c o m i n g in t o S o u t h
A fr ic a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t m y q u e s t i o n i s , y o u d i d n ’ t a s k h i m f o r m o r e

Page 27 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
in f o r m a ti o n a b o u t t h e I n d i a n d e l e g a ti o n t h a t h e w a s ta lk in g a b o u t a n d
t h a t w a s v is it h e w a n t e d y o u t o h e lp w it h i n te r m s o f th e c l e a r a n c e a n d
y o u s a i d y o u w e r e t o fi n d t h e i n fo r m a ti o n . N o w w h e r e , t h e q u e s ti o n is
w h e r e w e g o i n g t o fi n d t h e in f o r m a t io n ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) :

As I h a v e

s t a te d t h a t w e a r e g iv e n t h e s e t a s k s o r d u t ie s b y o u r d ir e c t o r a n d i f
t h e r e i s n o ta s k o r d u ti e s fr o m t h e d i r e c t o r m e a n s th e r e is n o th in g t h e n .
CHAIRPERSON:

D o e s th a t m e a n t h a t y o u d i d n ’ t a s k i n g f o r m o r e

in f o r m a ti o n b e c a u s e y o u a r e g o i n g t o w a i t f o r y o u r d i r e c t o r o r t h e
10

p e r s o n w h o w a s p e r f o r m i n g y o u r d ir e c to r ’s d u ti e s t o g iv e y o u m o r e
d e t a i ls a b o u t t h e v i s i t ?
MR

WILLIAM

MOLEFE

M AT J I LA

( t hr o u g h

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s ,

C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th e n y o u w a i te d a n d th e p e r s o n w h o w a s

p e r f o r m i n g y o u r d i r e c t o r ’s d u ti e s a s k y o u t o d o a n y t h in g ?
MR

WILLIAM

MOLEFE

M AT J I L A

(through

i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

No,

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s t h a t a n s w e r m e a n y o u d i d n o t w a i t f o r y o u r d ir e c to r
o r p e r s o n p e r f o r m i n g y o u r d ir e c t o r ’s d u ti e s to g i v e y o u i n s tr u c t io n s ?
20

M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I LA ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

Look, yes if

t h e d ir e c t o r g a v e u s s o m e t a s k s I s h o u l d h a v e r e c e iv e d t h e n o te v e r b a l
b u t ti ll t o d a y w h e n e v e r r e c e i v e d a n o te v e r b a l .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. I t h i n k t h e r e m a y b e s o m e m is u n d e r s ta n d i n g .

A m I c o r r e c t t o s a y y o u w a it e d t o s e e w h e t h e r t h e p e r s o n p e r f o r m in g
y o u r d ir e c t o r ’s d u t ie s w o u ld g iv e y o u i n s tr u c ti o n s in c l u d i n g a n o t e

Page 28 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
verbal?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s , I d id .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , a n d a t w h a t s ta g e d id y o u t h e n s p e a k t o M r

K h o l o a n e ’s PA a b o u t d o c u m e n ts ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

It was during

t h e p e r io d w h e n s h e c a n s e n d t h i s e m a i l a n d t h a t w a s i t . Th a t w a s t h e
la s t ti m e w e s p o k e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t p r o m – w h o c a l le d ? D id y o u c a l l h e r o r d i d
she call you?
10

M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : S h e ’s th e o n e
that called me.
CHAIRPERSON of:

O k a y. A n d w h a t d i d s h e s a y i n t h e t e l e p h o n e

c o n v e r s a ti o n w i th y o u ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I LA ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

S h e s a id , M r

M a t jil a t h e A m b a s s a d o r i s s a y i n g p l e a s e a s s is t th e In d ia n d e le g a ti o n
with the clearance.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w a s s h e e ff e c ti v e ly r e p e a ti n g w h a t M r M a t ji l a h a d
s a i d t o y o u i n a t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n , n o M r K h o l o a n e n o t Mr. W a s
M r K h o l o a n e ’s PA i n t h is t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a t io n r e p e a t in g in e ff e c t
20

w h a t M r K h o lo a n e h a d s e n t t o y o u i n a n e a r li e r c o n v e r s a ti o n ?
MR

WILLIAM

MOLEFE

M AT J I LA

( t hr o u g h

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s ,

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t d i d y o u s a y ? I k n o w s o m e o f t h e th i n g s t h a t
y o u s a i d b e c a u s e y o u s a i d y o u r r e q u e s t e d d o c u m e n ts b u t j u s t t e ll m e
t h e a c t u a l c o n v e r s a t i o n h o w it w e n t . T h is i s w h a t s h e s a i d t o y o u th a t

Page 29 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
M r K h o lo a n e s a i d p le a s e a s s is t a n d w h a t d id y o u s a y ? L e t m e h e a r h o w
t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n u n fo l d e d .
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

A s t h e PA is

w o r k i n g a t t h e S t a t e v is i t , s h e k n o w s a ll th e p r o c e d u r e s o f t h e S t a t e
v is it a n d t h e n I t o l d h e r t h a t i f w e a r e n o t in p o s s e s s i o n o f t h e n o te
v e r b a l th e r e i s a b s o l u t e ly n o t h in g th a t w e c a n d o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w, d o y o u o n ly g e t i n v o lv e d i n S t a te v is it s ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I LA ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

N o , n o t o n ly

t h a t , Yo u r W o r s h i p . Ev e n H e a d o f S t a t e o r o u r P r e s i d e n t is b e in g
10

a s s is t e d b y m y s e l f w h e n e v e r h e i s g o i n g a b r o a d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , I a m t r y i n g to u n d e r s t a n d w h a t s t a g e y o u

u n d e r s t o o d t h a t t h is w a s a S t a t e v is i t i f a t a n y s t a g e t h a t is w h a t y o u
u n d e r s t o o d b e c a u s e y o u d i d n ’ t a s k M r K h o l o a n e w h e th e r t h is w a s a
S t a te v is i t. Yo u d id n ’ t a s k h i m w h e th e r t h e v is i t i n v o lv e d a H e a d o f
S t a te o r Mi n is te r s . S o I’ m tr y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d w h e t h e r a t a n y s ta g e
your understanding was that this was a visit by Head of State, deputy
H e a d o f S t a t e , M i n is t e r s a n d i f t h a t is t h e c a s e , a t w h a t s t a g e y o u
understood that to be the case?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : L o o k , a f te r my
20

d ir e c t o r d i d n o t f o r w a r d m e w i t h a n o te v e r b a l th a t i s w h e n I r e a li z e d
t h a t th is v is i t i s n o t a c t u a l ly a S t a t e v i s i t a n d t h a t t h is m i g h t b e a
p r i v a t e v is i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : U p t o t h a t p o i n t , w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t th is w a s
a S ta t e v is i t ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : N o , C h a ir.

Page 30 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
CHAIRPERSON:

Before that point, you didn’t understand whether it

w a s a S t a t e v i s i t o r p r iv a te v is i t?
MR

WILLIAM

MOLEFE

M AT J I LA

( t hr o u g h

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s ,

C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o w h e n th e t e l e p h o n e c a l l fr o m M r K h o l o a n e , w h e n

t h e PA t o Mr K h o l o a n e c a ll e d y o u , a t th a t s ta g e t h e ti m e w i th i n w h ic h
y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d to g e t n o t e v e r b a l , h a d i t p a s s e d o r y o u w e r e s til l
e x p e c ti n g t o b e g iv e n v e r b a l a t th a t s t a g e ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :
10

O n th a t d a y,

Yo u r W o r s h ip , o n t h e s p e c i f ic d a y w h e n w e w e r e s ti ll w a it i n g f o r th e
n o t e v e r b a l , Yo u r W o r s h ip , t h a t is w h e n d u r in g t h e c o u r s e o f t h e d a y w e
n o t ic e d t h a t t h e r e is p l a y i n g t h a t w a s l a n d i n g in t h e b a s e , Yo u r
W o r s h i p , w h ic h w a s t h e G u p t a p la n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I’ m n o t s u r e i f I f o l lo w th a t . Th e p la t e , w e a r e
s t il l t a l k i n g a b o u t th e 9 t h o f A p r i l.
MR

WILLIAM

MOLEFE

M AT J I LA

( t hr o u g h

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s ,

C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . O k a y le t ’s g o b a c k t o t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n w i th M r

K h o l o a n e ’s PA . S h e s a id , M r M a t ji la M r K h o l o a n e s a y s p l e a s e a s s is t
20

w i t h t h e c l e a r a n c e f o r th is v is it . Is t h a t r ig h t?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a s I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r e v id e n c e , y o u t h e n s a i d y o u
n e e d e d a n o t e v e r b a l b e fo r e y o u c o u ld a s s is t. Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MR

WILLIAM

MOLEFE

M AT J I LA

( t hr o u g h

C h a ir p e r s o n .

Page 31 of 120

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s ,

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
C H A I R P E R S O N : A c t to g e th e r w i t h th e n o t e v e r b a l y o u e x p e c t e d a fl ig h t
o r d e t a i ls o f t h e f li g h t ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o d id y o u s a y t o h e r, I c a n ’ t d o , I c a n ’ t a s s is t u n l e s s
I g e t a n o te v e r b a l ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s , C h a ir,

b e c a u s e a s f a r a s t h e S t a t e v is i t is c o n c e r n e d w e d o n ’t d o t h i n g s , Yo u r
W o r s h i p , t e l e p h o n i c a ll y. W e d o t h i n g s a c c o r d i n g to d o c u m e n ta t io n o r
the note verbal.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t d i d n ’ t M r K h o l o a n e ’s PA s a id w h e n y o u s a i d
y o u c o u ld n o t a s s is t u n l e s s t h e r e w a s a n o t e v e r b a l ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

Th a t w a s t h e

e n d o f o u r s p e e c h o r ta lk in g , Yo u r W o r s h i p .
CHAIRPERSON:

D id s h e u n d e r t a k e to c o n v e y y o u r r e q u e s t t o Mr

K h o l o a n e … ( i n d is t in c t) ?
M R W I L L IA M M O L E F E M AT J I LA ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : N o , C h a ir. S h e
d i d n ’ t te ll m e a n y th in g .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. A n d t h a t w h a t h a p p e n e d a f te r t h a t ? Is th a t

w h e n y o u r e c e iv e d t h e m e s s a g e fr o m M r K h o l o a n e t h a t y o u p a s s e d o n
20

t o t h e A ir F o r c e ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W o u l d y o u n o r m a ll y g e t i n v o lv e d i f t h e v is i t w a s a

p r i v a t e v is i t a n d n o t a S ta t e v is i t ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I LA ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

It is the

P r e s i d e n t w h o is c o m i n g p r i v a t e l y, y e s I d o a s s is t b e c a u s e o n a p r iv a te

Page 32 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
v is it it h a p p e n s t h a t h e h a s c o m e t o m e e t o u r o w n S t a t e Pr e s id e n t e v e n
t h o u g h h e c a m e p r iv a te ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Th e n d o y o u w a n t t o c o m p l e te i t?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

Ye s , C h a ir. I h a v e a ls o n o te d th a t is

a b o u t 2 5 p a s t b u t h o w e v e r, w e c a n c o n ti n u e . I h a v e j u s t g o t y o u k n o w,
a s in g u l a r q u e s t i o n a n d t o r e f e r to M r M a t jil a . H e h a d p u t t h a t h e
w a n t e d t o m a k e r e fe r e n c e t o a d o c u m e n t a n d th a t w o u l d b e t h e
conclusion.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M a y b e le t ’s u s e t h e t i m e u p t o 11 h 3 0 a n d t h e n
10

w e t a k e th e te a b r e a k .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : A s th e C h a ir p le a s e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

M r M a t ji la , j u s t to c o n c l u d e o n t h e

e v i d e n c e th a t y o u h a v e i n f o r m e d t h e C h a i r o n . W h a t h a s n o w c h a n g e d
t o d e te r n o n c o m p l i a n c e o f l e t’s j u s t s a y t h e n o n v e r b a l ’s a t D e r c o a n d s o
f o r th ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I LA ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Can you

r e p e a t y o u r q u e s ti o n a g a i n ?
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:
20

Ye s . W h a t h a s n o w c h a n g e d t o d e t e r

n o n c o m p li a n c e o f th e n o r m a l p r o c e s s e s o f t h e n o t e v e r b a l ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : A t t h is p o in t i n
ti m e , if I s e n t a r e q u e s t a t th e A ir Fo r c e I a t t a c h t h e l e t te r fr o m D e r c o
a n d t h e n I w i ll s e n d i t w it h a s t a m p fr o m D e r c o . A n d n o w o n th e n o te
v e r b a l th e y m u s t s ta t e th e fu ll n a m e s o f t h e Pr e s id e n t n o t V V I P.
ADV MPHO RASIVHETSHELE:

C h a ir, t h a t k n o w s t h a t h e ’s t a lk in g

Page 33 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
a b o u t is o n p a g i n a t e d p a g e 1 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h in k I w o u l d l ik e y o u t o g o t o t h e m e s s a g e t h a t h e
g o t fr o m M r M a tj il a w h ic h h e s e n t t o t h e A i r F o r c e .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : I n d e e d , C h a ir. Th a t w o u l d b e t h e e m a i l
s e n t to t h e A ir F o r c e f o r w a r d i n g t h a t m e s s a g e y o u r e c e iv e d o n b e h a lf o f
Ambassador Kholoane.
CHAIRPERSON: At page 199?
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o n e th a t w e a r e d e a l in g w i th ?
10

A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : I t ’s p a g e 1 9 8 . T h a t ’s th e m e s s a g e t h a t
h e M r M a tj il a h a d fo r w a r d e d t o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y M r M a t ji l a . A r e y o u p a g e 1 9 8 o f E x h ib i t F F4 ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s th a t a n e m a il t h a t y o u s e n t , is t h a t t h e e m a il t h a t
y o u , c o v e r i n g e m a il t h a t y o u s e n t to t h e A ir F o r c e ?
MR

WILLIAM

MOLEFE

M AT J I LA

( t hr o u g h

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s ,

C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t ’s w r i t t e n ; i t s e e m s t o b e a d d r e s s e d to S A A F

o v e r fl ig h ts a n d t h e n i t c o p i e s a n u m b e r o f p e o p le a n d h e s a y s fr o m
20

M a t jil a W M a n d i t w a s s e n t o n Tu e s d a y, A p r i l 9 2 0 1 3 a t 0 8 h 5 7 A M a n d
t h e s u b je c t is , ‘R e q u e s t f o r f li g h t c l e a r a n c e s – In d ia n d e l e g a ti o n ’ . Is
t h a t t h e m e s s a g e w e a r e t a lk in g a b o u t? T h e c o v e r i n g e m a il w e a r e
t a lk in g a b o u t?
MR

WILLIAM

MOLEFE

M AT J I LA

( t hr o u g h

C h a ir p e r s o n .

Page 34 of 120

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s ,

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t d i d y o u a t t a c h t o th a t c o v e r i n g e m a il ? D id
y o u a t ta c h , w h a t d i d y o u , ja w h e r e is t h e o n e t h a t y o u a tt a c h e d to
t h e r e ? Is i t th e o n e a t p a g e 1 9 9 ?
MR

WILLIAM

MOLEFE

M AT J I LA

( t hr o u g h

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s ,

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . A n d d id y o u s a y th a t l a te r o n y o u r e c e iv e d
t h e a p p r o v a l o r c l e a r a n c e fr o m W a t e r k lo o f ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : N o .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

W a s t h e s e n d i n g o f t h is m e s s a g e t h e l a s t th i n g y o u

d i d i n c o n n e c ti o n w i th t h e , w i t h a s s is ti n g w it h r e g a r d to t h i s tr i p ?
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u h a v e a n o t h e r c o n v e r s a ti o n w i th M r K h o l o a n e
in c o n n e c t io n w i t h t h is v is i t a n d y o u r a s s i s t a n c e ?
MR

WILLIAM

MOLEFE

M AT J I L A

(through

i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

No,

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Th a n k y o u .
A D V M P H O R A S I V H E T S H E L E : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you got anything?
ADV MPHO RASIVH ETSHELE:
20

C h a ir, b e s i d e s M r M a t ji la a t t e m p ti n g

e a r l ie r t o r e f e r t o a n A n n e x u r e o f h is c o n fir m a t o r y a ffi d a v i t , t h e r e is
n o t h i n g f u r t h e r t o l e a d i n g e v id e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. M r M a t ji la , I th in k a t t h is s t a g e w e a r e d o n e

with you.
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r c o m in g t o g iv e e v i d e n c e .

Page 35 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
Yo u a r e n o w e x c u s e d .
M R W I L L I A M M O L E F E M AT J I L A ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : O k a y t h a n k s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ’ ll , i t ’s 11 h 3 0 . W e ’ ll t a k e t h e t e a a d jo u r n m e n t a n d
w e ’l l r e s u m e a t 11 h 4 5 . W e a d j o u r n .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms N o r m a n a r e y o u r e a d y ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s I a m r e a d y t h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
10

A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

M r C h a ir m a n w e h a v e g o t t h e n e x t

w i t n e s s , G e n e r a l M g w e b i , h e i s t h e o n e w h o is g o i n g t o ta lk to t h e C h i e f
S A N D F B o a r d I n q u ir y R e p o r t a n d t h a t r e p o r t a n d h is s ta t e m e n t a r e
c o n ta in e d i n E x h i b i t F F 4 , I h a d r e q u e s t e d t h e R e g i s tr a r to p la c e i t
before you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I h a v e g o t i t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , a n d s t a r ti n g fr o m p a g e 1 o f th a t t h e
C h a ir p e r s o n w i ll fi n d G e n e r a l M g w e b i ’s s t a t e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

T h a n k y o u , m a y h e b e s w o r n i n Mr

C h a ir m a n , t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e a d m i n i s t e r t h e o a t h o r a ffir m a t i o n .
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: ( d . s .s .)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, yes?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n . G e n e r a l i s i t

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
c o r r e c t t h a t y o u a r e e m p lo y e d in t h e S o u t h A f r i c a n D e fe n c e F o r c e , o r
t h e D e p a r t m e n t t h a t ’s k n o w n a s t o g e t h e r w i t h M i li t a r y Ve te r a n s , b u t w e
w i ll r e fe r t o i t a s th e D e f e n c e F o r c e , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
GENERAL

D E R R IC K

MBUYISELO

M G W E B I:

We

r e fe r

to

th e

D e p a r t m e n t a s t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f D e f e n c e a n d M il i ta r y Ve t e r a n s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : In d e e d s o , y e s . A n d w h a t p o s i t io n a r e y o u
h o l d i n g t h e r e c u r r e n tl y ?
G E N E R A L D E R R IC K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

I ’ m a r e tir e d L i e u te n a n t

G e n e r a l, I ’v e j u s t b e e n c a l l e d u p t o b e a n a c ti n g D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l i n t h e
10

m il i ta r y v e te r a n s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s h o w l o n g w e r e y o u w i t h t h e

d e p a r t m e n t b e fo r e y o u r r e tir e d ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

I w o u l d s a y p r o b a b ly 3 8

years.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s th a n k y o u , y o u w e r e p r e s id i n g o v e r

t h e B o a r d o f i n q u ir y, a m I c o r r e c t , t h a t w a s h e l d t h e d e p a r t m e n t i n
c o n n e c t io n w i t h t h e W a t e r k lo o f i n c id e n t?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: Ye s I w a s th e P r e s i d e n t o f
the Board.
20

A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u w e r e t h e Pr e s id e n t o f t h e B o a r d , w h o
e ls e a s s is t e d y o u ?
G E N E R A L D E R R IC K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

W e h a v e t h e l a te M a j o r

G e n e r a l P e t a n e a n d w e h a d – h e w a s a B r i g a d ie r G e n e r a l a t th e t i m e
a n d M is i , h e ’s a M a j o r G e n e r a l n o w a n d t h e n C o l o n e l D l o m o w h o w a s a
C o l o n e l a t t h e ti m e h e is a B r i g a d i e r G e n e r a l n o w, h e w a s a s c r i b e o f

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
the Board.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u , w h a t w a s t h e m a n d a t e o f
the Board?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: Th e B o a r d w a s c o n v e n e d
b y G e n e r a l S h o k e ? a f te r th e i n c i d e n t o f t h e l a n d i n g o f t h e a ir c r a ft a t
t h e A i r F o r c e B a s e W a te r k l o o f a n d th e n t h e B o a r d w a s e x p e c te d t o
d e t e r m i n e w h e th e r in f a c t t h e r e w a s a n a u t h o r i ty a n d c l e a r a n c e f o r t h e
a ir c r a f t to l a n d th e r e , t h e n w h e th e r th e p o l ic i e s a n d p r o c e d u r e s w e r e
f o ll o w e d a n d i f n o t, i f th e r e w a s a n y b o d y, o r i n d iv i d u a l s w h o m i g h t
10

h a v e , a t l e a s t v i o l a te d a n y p r e s c r i p ts o r a n y w i tn e s s e s i n t h e s y s t e m t o
b e r e c t if i e d , w e h a d to d e t e r m i n e t h a t a n d b e a b l e t o r e p o r t – m a k e
fi n d i n g s a n d r e p o r t b a c k

w i t h r e c o m m e n d a t io n t o t h e c o n v e n e r o f t h e

Board which was General Shoke.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u b e f o r e w e g o i n to d e t a i l c a n
y o u ju s t – b e c a u s e i n y o u r s ta t e m e n t y o u d e a l w i t h w h a t y o u h a d t o d o
in s o f a r a s t h e B o a r d is c o n c e r n e d b u t c a n y o u p l e a s e id e n ti fy y o u r
s t a te m e n t w h ic h a p p e a r s a t p a g e s 1 t o p a g e 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y d i d y o u s a y p a g e 4 ?
G E N E R A L D E R R IC K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:
20

Ye s p a g e – I b e g y o u r

p a r d o n C h a ir i t ’s , t h e y p u t i n a s 1 . 4 I b e g y o u r p a r d o n , y e s i t w i ll b e
p a g e 1 . 1 to p a g e 1 . 4 o f E x h i b i t F F 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ar e y o u th e r e G e n e r a l , d o y o u i d e n t i fy t h is
is – d i d y o u s i g n t h i s s t a te m e n t a n d d o y o u i d e n ti f y y o u r s i g n a t u r e
there?

Page 38 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

Ye s I d o .

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h e r e is it ?
G E N E R A L D E R R IC K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

Yo u ’r e t a lk in g a b o u t th e

a ffi d a v i t ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s y o u r s i g n a tu r e a p p e a r i n g a t p a g e 1 . 4 .
GENERAL

D E R R IC K

MBUYISELO

M G W E B I:

Th e

signature

is

appearing at page 4.
10

A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d a r e t h e c o n t e n t s o f w h a t y o u ’v e

p u t in t h a t s t a te m e n t tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: T h e y ’r e tr u e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . N o w l e t ’s t a lk a b o u t t h e –
y o u ’v e a lr e a d y o u t li n e d w h a t t h e m a n d a t e o f t h e B o a r d w a s , h o w d i d
y o u g o a b o u t t h e n in v e s t i g a t in g a n d d is c h a r g i n g y o u r m a n d a t e ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: W e l l w e h a d , fi r s t o f a l l t o
lo o k a t w h o w o u l d b e a p p e a r i n g b e f o r e t h e B o a r d a n d t o d e t e r m i n e t h a t
w e h a d to l o o k a t th e s tr u c t u r e o f t h e D e fe n c e Fo r c e a n d w h o is i n
charge for what.
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R IC K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

S o a ll th e m ili t a r y A i r

F o r c e B a s e s a r e u n d e r t h e C h ie f o f th e A ir F o r c e a n d w h a t e v e r h a p p e n s
t h e r e f a l ls u n d e r h is ju r is d i c ti o n b u t a n y th in g w h ic h h a s g o t t o d o w i t h
in f o r m a ti o n ,

i n te ll ig e n c e

th e n

fa ll s

under

I n t e lli g e n c e .

S o f r o m t h e r e t h e y b e c o m e t h e fir s t i n d iv i d u a l s t o g iv e

Page 39 of 120

the

Chief

of

Defence

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
s e n s e o f w h a t a c tu a lly h a p p e n e d a n d th e n fr o m th e r e , t h e r e w o u l d b e
s tr u c t u r e s , t h e l e v e ls o f t h e s tr u c t u r e s y o u w o u ld h a v e th e C h i e f o f t h e
D e f e n c e F o r c e w h i c h w e ’l l c a ll l e v e l 2 a n d t h e n y o u w o u ld h a v e t h e A ir
C o m m a n d P o s t w h ic h b e c o m e s le v e l 3 a n d t h e n w e h a v e t h e b a s e i ts e l f
w h ic h i s W a t e r k lo o f Ai r Fo r c e B a s e , w h i c h b e c o m e s l e v e l 4 a n d a l l o f
them

have

g o t c e r t a i n r e s p o n s i b ili t ie s

and

tasks you’ve

got to

u n d e r s t a n d s o t h a t to l e a s t – w h o i s i n c h a r g e f o r w h a t a n d w h o r e p o r t s
to who.

S o w e f o l lo w e d t h a t o r d e r t o s p e a k to t h o s e w h o w e r e in

command.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d th e C h i e f o f A ir F o r c e is G e n e r a l
M s i m a n g , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
GENERAL

DERRICK

MBUYISELO

M G W E B I:

Ye s

it

is

C o lo n e l

Msimang.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

S o is th a t w h y y o u ’l l f i n d t h e n th a t h e ’s

v e r y – h is q u e s t io n s a n d s t a te m e n ts , th e y a p p e a r q u i t e e a r l y i n t h e
report.
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: Ye s w e h a d to f o l lo w t h a t
o r d e r.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

Ye s y o u fo ll o w e d o r d e r o f s e n io r i ty in

in t e r v ie w in g th e m .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u , t h e n y o u in t e r v ie w e d t h e m , d i d
y o u p r e p a r e a s e t o f q u e s ti o n s f o r t h e m w h ic h th e y h a d t o a n s w e r t o o r
d i d y o u s i m p ly c o n d u c t o r a l i n t e r v ie w s w i t h a ll o f th e m ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: I t w a s o r a l i n te r v i e w s a n d

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
t h o s e w e r e p r o b a b ly n o t c o m f o r ta b le w i t h t h a t , t h e y h a d t o m a k e
s t a te m e n ts b u t t h e y h a v e t o a t l e a s t a ll o f t h e m d o t h a t u n d e r o a t h ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d t h o s e in t e r v i e w s th a t w e r e g iv e n
u n d e r o a t h , w e r e t h e y r e c o r d e d m e c h a n ic a lly ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: T h e y w e r e r e c o r d e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d th e c o m p a n y t h a t th e A ir F o r c e u s e d
t o r e c o r d t h o s e , w a s i t a c o m p a n y t h a t is c o n tr a c t e d t o t h e A ir F o r c e
a n d t h e – b e c a u s e t h e tr a n s c r i p t s , I’ ll d e a l w i t h t h a t a s p e c t o f a
tr a n s c r ip t t h a t w a s q u e s ti o n e d y e s t e r d a y b y o n e o f t h e w i tn e s s e s , M a j o r
10

N ts h is i , I j u s t w a n t t o g e t y o u t h e n a m e o f t h e c o m p a n i e s t h a t w a s
d o i n g t h e r e c o r d i n g s , w h e th e r i t i s a c o m p a n y t h a t’s c o n t r a c t e d to t h e
D e f e n c e F o r c e a n d it a p p e a r s i n t h a t b u n d l e a t p a g e 2 8 2 , i t ’s c a l le d
I A fr ic a Tr a n s c r i p ti o n ( P ty ) L t d .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: P a g e ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Page 282.
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

O k a y, y e s I s e e .

A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u , j u s t to fo ll o w t h e p r o c e s s
a ft e r

th e s e

interviews

were

conducted

and

then

th e r e

were

tr a n s c r ip t io n s w e r e th e s e k e p t u n d e r l o c k a n d k e y o r w e r e t h e s e
20

s a f e g u a r d e d b y t h e d e p a r t m e n t o r d o y o u k n o w w h o s e r e s p o n s ib il i ty i t
w a s t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e tr a n s c r i p t s - t h e r e c o r d , th e r e c o r d in g s a r e
n o t in t e r f e r e d w i t h a n d t h e t r a n s c r i p ts a r e k e p t s a f e .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

The Chief of Defence

F o r c e k e e p t h e s e t r a n s c r i p ts a n d r e c o r d s u n d e r t h e l e g a l d e p a r t m e n t o f
t h e D e f e n c e , t h e m ili t a r y s i d e o f i t .

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d u n d e r y o u r w a tc h w h i ls t y o u w e r e

c o n d u c t in g t h e s e i n t e r v i e w s w o u l d y o u h a v e k e p t t h e s e u n d e r l o c k a n d
k e y t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e r e w a s n o t a m p e r in g w i th t h e e v i d e n c e ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t th a t w h a t y o u d i d ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u . N o w le t ’s t a l k t h e n a b o u t
you

having

interviewed

then

the

Chief

of

t h e Ai r

Fo r c e ,

after

in t e r v ie w in g t h e C h i e f o f t h e A i r F o r c e , w h a t i s i t th a t y o u f o u n d w h ic h
10

w o u ld h a v e in d i c a t e d t o y o u , th a t m a y b e t h e r e w e r e c e r t a i n p r o c e s s e s
t h a t w e r e n o t f o l lo w e d ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: T h e – w h a t tr a n s p ir e d i n
t e r m s o f t h e in c i d e n t is th a t t h e a d v is o r t o th e Mi n is t e r o f D e fe n c e
s e e m in g ly s o m e w h e r e i n F e b r u a r y, e a r ly M a r c h d i d s p e a k to t h e C h i e f
o f t h e A i r F o r c e e n q u ir i n g a b o u t t h i s p o s s ib l e la n d i n g o f t h is a ir c r a f t
a n d t h e C h i e f o f t h e A ir Fo r c e , h a v i n g lis t e n e d t o t h a t , th a t ’s w h a t h e
says to us or to the Board.

H e i n f a c t i n d ic a t e d th a t i f t h a t ’s w h a t is

r e q u ir e d t h e y a r e a d v is i n g t h a t h e s h o u l d n o t a p p r o v e th e l a n d i n g o f
t h is , s o t h a t w a s t h e fir s t t h i n g . T h e s e c o n d t h in g t h e n , w e t h e n a s k e d
20

t h e C h i e f o f t h e A ir F o r c e b e c a u s e a f te r a ll t h a t h a s b e e n s a i d a n d d o n e
t h e a ir c r a f t d i d l a n d , n o w th e q u e s t i o n is , t h e a p p r o v a l o f th e l a n d i n g
a n d th e p o li c y w h ic h g o v e r n s t h a t .

So it became quite clear that in

t e r m s o f th e p o l ic y fr a m e w o r k t h e r e w a s a g a p , w h a t th e n , t h e A ir F o r c e
w a s u t il is i n g i s a s ta n d a r d o p e r a t in g p r o c e d u r e w h i c h t h e n g i v e s y o u
b o x e s t o ti c k w h e t h e r t h is h a s b e e n d o n e , t h i s h a s b e e n d o n e a n d a ls o

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
t h e c h a l l e n g e w i th t h a t s ta n d a r d o p e r a t in g p r o c e d u r e i s t h a t th e p e o p l e
a t a l o w e r l e v e l a r e t h e o n e s w h o d e t e r m i n e b u t t h e in t e r e s ti n g p a r t
a b o u t t h a t is th a t i f t h e r e i s a n y th in g u n t o w a r d i t is e x p e c t e d t h a t th e y
r e p o r t t o th e s e n i o r c o n tr o ll e r, th e s e n i o r c o n tr o ll e r m u s t r e p o r t to t h e
C o m m a n d e r o f t h e A ir F o r c e B a s e c o m m a n d p o s t w h o t h e n r e p o r t s t o
t h e C h ie f o f th e A ir Fo r c e . S o b a s ic a l ly t h o s e w e r e th e – s o m e o f t h e
c h a l le n g e s w h ic h t h e n w e r e q u i te c l e a r a n d a l s o i n t e r m s o f n u m b e r o f
g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts – b e c a u s e t h a t b a s e , W a te r k l o o f is a ls o
understood and recognised as an entry point to South Africa and
10

t h e r e f o r e i f t h e r e a r e g o i n g t o b e v i s i t o r s o t h e r g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts
as

would

be

the case

th a t t h e

O R Ta m b o

In t e r n a t i o n a l , t h o s e

g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts m u s t b e p r e s e n t b u t t h e n w h a t w a s m is s i n g t
t h e ti m e i s a p o l ic y w h ic h g o v e r n s t h a t i n t e r - d e p a r t m e n ta l r e la t io n s a n d
w o r k i n g s t o m a n a g e t h a t, i t w a s a p o li c y m is s i n g .

S o t h e s e w e r e th e

k in d o f t h i n g s w h ic h – a t le a s t w h i c h b e c a m e g l a r i n g a s w e w e r e
in t e r v ie w in g th e C h i e f o f t h e A ir F o r c e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d y o u w e r e t a lk i n g w h e n w e w e r e

d e a li n g w i t h t h e le v e ls s ta r ti n g fr o m th e C h i e f o f t h e A ir Fo r c e y o u w e r e
d e a li n g w i t h l e v e l 4 a n d y o u s a i d th e s t a n d a r d o p e r a ti n g p r o c e d u r e s ,
20

t h e y a p p li e d t o l e v e l 4 a n d i n y o u r i n v e s ti g a t io n s t h e n , i f – d id y o u fi n d
t h a t th e r e w e r e t h i n g s th a t w e r e n o t d o n e p r o p e r ly w i t h i n t h a t le v e l ,
that is level 4?
G E N E R A L D E R R IC K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:
request,

you

s ta r t

seeing

a

Defence

T h e c h a ll e n g e w i th th is
( i n d is t in c t )

fr o m

In d i a

c o m m u n ic a ti n g w i th t h e D e fe n c e f o r e i g n r e l a ti o n w h ic h is c o r r e c t b u t

Page 43 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
t h e y a r e s h a r i n g w h a t is g o in g t o h a p p e n a n d a ls o r e q u e s t in g t h a t t h e y
s h o u l d b e a l lo w e d t o la n d . N o w th e fo r e ig n r e la t io n s p e o p l e s h a r e t h a t
in f o r m a ti o n w it h s o m e o f t h e i r c o ll e a g u e s w h o a r e f o r e i g n r e la t io n b u t
s i tt i n g a t t h e A ir Fo r c e a n d th a t a g a i n , i n t e r m s o f w a r n i n g , o n e c a n s a y
is c o r r e c t b u t t h e a p p r o v a l s h o u l d g o t h r o u g h D IR C O a n d D IR C O

it

should go to the Secretariat of Defence and then they should meet with
the Chief of Defence Force, but

t h a t p o l ic y is g u i d in g th a t , i t ’s n o t

w r i t t e n , it s n o t d o c u m e n t e d , i t b e c o m e s a p r a c ti c e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: T h e n w h e n th a t fi r s t o n e
fr o m F e b r u a r y b e c a u s e it ’s s ta r t i n g 2 8 F e b r u a r y it g o e s u p t o t h e 5 t h o f
M a r c h a n d n o t h i n g h a p p e n s , it s to p p e d a n d th e n th e I n d i a n s fr o m t h e ir
s id e , t h e D e f e n c e A t ta c h é d e c id e s t o s e n d it d ir e c t t o l e v e l 4 a n d t h i s i s
where then the level 4 people start processing it and then it becomes
q u i te c l e a r t h a t t h e l e v e l 4 p e o p l e t h e y w e r e lo o k in g a t w h a t w a s b e i n g
s a i d i n te r ms o f t h e r e q u e s t , fr o m a g a i n t h e D e fe n c e A t t a c h é o f I n d i a
a n d fr o m t h e r e t h e y r e a l is e th a t th e r e ’s n o t h i n g c o m i n g fr o m D I R C O
a n d t h e n th e y tr ie d to li n k u p w i th D IR C O . A n d w h a t tr a n s p ir e d l a te r o n
it b e c o m e s a n e m a il a n d t h a t e m a i l i s c o m i n g fr o m a PA i n m y

20

u n d e r s t a n d in g , o f Mr K o l o a n e w h o ’s – a n d th e n i t g o e s to o n e o f t h e
o ffic i a ls , I th i n k i t’s M r M a t ji la w h o w a s t h e r e a n d t h e n fr o m Mr M a tj il a
it g o e s t o t h e A ir F o r c e a g a in , le v e l 4 a n d t h e n y o u th e n fi n d a t l e v e l 4 ,
t h e b a s e i t s e l f h a s g o t a b a s e C o m m a n d e r a n d t h e n t h e r e ’s a M o v e m e n t
C o n tr o l O ff ic e r w h o b e c o m e s ( i n d is t in c t) .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
GENERAL DERRICK

MBUYISELO

M G W E B I:

N o w ( in d is ti n c t)

m a n a g e s th a t w it h o u t t h e k n o w le d g e t o a c e r t a in e x te n t o f h is
C o m m a n d e r.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And who was the Commander?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

The Commander was

B r i g a d ie r G e n e r a l M a t u m a n e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : G e n e r a l M a tu m a n e , y e s .
GENERAL DERRICK MBUYISELO

M G W E B I:

So then Matumane

s e e m in g ly d o e s n o t g e t in v o lv e d a n d t h e n A n d e r s o n r u n s i t a n d t h e n
10

c o m e s fr o m t h e A ir F o r c e C o m m a n d P o s t S e r g e a n t M a j o r a t t h e t i m e
N ts h is i a n d th e n w h o ’s s u p p o s e d to b e – b e c a u s e th a t ’s t a l k i n g a b o u t a
c le a r a n c e a c l e a r a n c e m e a n s in t e r m s o f t h e le n g th o f th e a i r s tr i p t h e
w i d th o f th e a ir s tr i p a n d t h e s a f e ty o f t h e p a s s e n g e r s w h e n th e n a ll t h e
is s u e s s p e a k t o s a f e ty a n d t h e p a s s e n g e r s i s th e l a n d in g s tr i p a n d th e
a ir c r a f t a t le a s t ( in d is ti n c t) w h a t i s p o s s i b l e a t th a t A ir F o r c e B a s e a n d
t h e n t h a t ’s t h e c l e a r a n c e p a r t o f i t a n d th e c l e a r a n c e p a r t o f i t , a l s o i t’s
w h o a r e t h e s e p e o p l e , w h a t l e v e l s a r e t h e y a n d a r e th e y i n f a c t
e x p e c te d t o l a n d h e r e . S o t h o s e a r e t h e b o x e s w h ic h t h e y ’ r e s u p p o s e d
t o t ic k .

20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: W h a t th e n b e c o m e s q u i te
c le a r i n t h is o n e r ig h t th r o u g h i n t h e d is c u s s i o n i t ’s j u s t a d e le g a ti o n
fr o m I n d i a a n d o f c o u r s e fr o m o n e o f t h e s t a t e s o f I n d ia , I t h i n k 2 7 o n e
o f th e 2 7 s t a t e s a n d i t ’s j u s t s a id i t ’s a M in is te r fr o m o n e th e s ta t e s a n d
t h e y s a y M in is t e r fr o m t h e c e n t r a l le v e l .

No names, no leader of the

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
d e l e g a ti o n i n t h is p a r t o f t h e d is c u s s i o n a m o n g t h e ms e lv e s r i g h t
through.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d y o u f o u n d t h o s e t o b e ir r e g u la r ?
G E N E R A L D E R R IC K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

Fir s t o f a l l t h e A i r F o r c e

B a s e W a t e r k lo o f t h e r e a r e t h o s e th a t a r e s u p p o s e d to l a n d t h e r e , t h e
h e a d s o f s t a te , a n d t h e ir d e p u ti e s a n d i t m u s t b e a M in is t e r o f a s ta t e
c o m i n g fr o m s o m e w h e r e e ls e , i t m u s t b e c le a r e d a t le a s t fo r t h e
D e f e n c e F o r c e a t D IR C O f o r w h a t e v e r s p e c ia l r e a s o n b u t t h e r e m u s t b e
c le a r a n c e fr o m t h a t l e v e l a n d a n y d e l e g a ti o n w h o ’s c o m i n g th r o u g h
10

t h e r e m u s t b e a l e a d e r o f t h a t d e le g a ti o n b e c a u s e p r o to c o l d e m a n d s
t h a t w h e n th a t a ir c r a f t la n d s , t h e n t h e p r o t o c o l fr o m t h e D e f e n c e F o r c e
t h e r e m u s t b e a n o ffi c e r w h ic h w e c a ll th a t o ff ic e r, m e e t a n d g r e e te r, h e
m u s t m e e t t h e p e r s o n w h o ’s s e n io r a n d g r e e t th e p e r s o n a n d o f c o u r s e
if h e ’s r e a l ly a n o ffi c i a l p e r s o n d e s e r v i n g t h e r e d c a r p e t it m u s t b e
rolled and then all the rest.

S o t h is is w h y i t’s i m p o r ta n t t h a t t h e r e

m u s t b e a le a d e r o f th e d e l e g a ti o n a n d t h e l e v e l o f t h a t p e r s o n s o t h a t
t h e m e e t a n d g r e e t c a n b e a b l e t o k n o w, w h o i s th is p e r s o n , s o t h a t o n e
a g a in w a s m is s in g .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

A n d – s o a s y o u w e r e g o i n g a lo n g

in t e r v ie w in g a l l t h e s e p e r s o n s , t h e n y o u w o u l d fo c u s o n t h e k e y p e o p l e
t h a t w o u ld h a v e p la y e d k e y r o l e s in t h e in c id e n t i ts e l f .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d y o u d id n ’t ju s t in t e r v ie w g e n e r a l ly b u t
y o u h a d s p e c i fic p e r s o n s w h o w e r e r e le v a n t f o r th e p u r p o s e s o f
e x e c u ti n g y o u r m a n d a t e .

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t .

And you have attached to the report

v a r io u s s ta t e m e n ts t h a t w e r e o b t a i n e d fr o m t h e v a r io u s i n d iv id u a ls b u t
y o u m a y h i g h li g h t p e r s o n s t h a t y o u h a v e m e n ti o n e d s o f a r i n e v i d e n c e
t h a t y o u a ls o o b t a in e d a s ta t e m e n t fr o m L i e u t e n a n t C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n
a n d t h a t a p p e a r s a t p a g e s 3 5 to 4 4 a n d y o u o b t a i n e d f r o m L i e u te n a n t
G e n e r a l S i m u n k t h a t y o u ’ v e a lr e a d y m e n ti o n e d a n d y o u ’ v e o b t a i n e d o n e
fr o m B r i g a d ie r G e n e r a l L o m b a r d , w h a t w a s t h e p o s i ti o n o f G e n e r a l
Lombard.
10

G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

He was a Commander –

G e n e r a l O ff ic e r C o m m a n d i n g , t h e A ir F o r c e C o m m a n d P o s t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n h is i n v o l v e m e n t i n
t h e in c i d e n t ?
G E N E R A L D E R R IC K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

N o w u n d e r h i m , th e r e

w o u ld b e – fir s t o f a l l h e is i n c h a r g e o f t h a t b a s e s o h e ’s a
C o m m a n d e r, y o u ’r e s u p p o s e d t o k n o w w h a t’s h a p p e n i n g a n d y o u ’ d g e t
t h a t fr o m y o u r s u b o r d in a t e s , t h e y w i ll b e b r ie f in g y o u a n d i n t h e
m o r n in g t h e r e ’s s u p p o s e d t o b e s it t in g s a n d t h e r e y o u g e t b r i e f e d a b o u t
w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d t h e p r e v i o u s d a y a n d w h a t ’s a b o u t t o h a p p e n w h i c h
20

d e s e r v e y o u r a t te n ti o n a s a C o m m a n d e r. S o h e w a s s u p p o s e d to h a v e
b e e n i n fo r m e d a b o u t a ll t h e s e , w h a t ’s h a p p e n i n g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A lr i g h t .
G E N E R A L D E R R IC K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: S o t h e n h e h a d t o e x p la in
w h a t h a p p e n e d a n d th e n u n d e r h i m o f c o u r s e t h e r e w o u l d b e a s e n io r –
in r e l a ti o n to th is o n e t h e r e ’l l b e a s e n i o r c o n tr o l l e r w h o i s t h e a c tu a l

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
p e r s o n th e n w h o m u s t s ig n a n d a p p r o v e t h e c le a r a n c e a n d i t h a p p e n e d
t o b e L ie u t e n a n t C o l o n e l Va n Zy l .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d d i d y o u g e t a – y o u d o h a v e a

s t a te m e n t a ls o a t p a g e s 4 5 t o 5 0 s o r r y, a n d t h e n I s e e y o u a ls o
o b t a i n e d o n e fr o m B r i g a d i e r G e n e r a l M a t u m a n e , t h a t y o u m e n t i o n e d .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

S o a l l o f t h e s e s ta t e m e n ts w e r e o b t a i n e d

fr o m th e m b u t t h e n h a v i n g d o n e t h a t t h e n y o u w o u l d h a v e r e a c h e d –
b e c a u s e w e d o n ’ t h a v e t o g o t h r o u g h a ll o f th e s e b e c a u s e y o u d i d th e
10

in v e s t i g a t io n s a n d y o u m a d e t h e f in d in g s a n d m a y b e c a n y o u ju s t g o
t h e n – m a y I r e f e r y o u to p a g e 2 0 6 o f t h e d o c u m e n t , o r m a y b e b e c a u s e ,
ju s t to i d e n t i fy i t f o r m a ll y b e c a u s e th is is a t t a c h e d t o y o u r r e p o r t ,
m a y b e w e c o u ld s ta r t a t p a g e 1 9 9 b e c a u s e y o u m a d e r e f e r e n c e to i t
ju s t n o w. Th is is a n e m a il th a t h a s b e e n r e fe r r e d t o i n th e e v i d e n c e o f
t h e t w o p r e v io u s w i t n e s s e s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

O r m a y b e w e s h o u ld ju s t s ta r t i t a t p a g e

1 9 4 , I b e g y o u r p a r d o n G e n e r a l I w o u l d lik e u s t o s t a r t a t p a g e 1 9 3
b e c a u s e I ’d li k e y o u t o e x p l a i n to t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t h e d i ffe r e n c e
20

b e t w e e n th e R S A 0 5 a n d R S A 0 4 . C o u l d y o u j u s t s t a r t a t p a g e 1 9 3 ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: Ye s t h e R S A 0 5 s p e a k s t o
a ir c r a f t c o m i n g a n d f ly in g i n t o t h e Ai r Fo r c e B a s e W a t e r k l o o f , c o m i n g
fr o m o u ts id e S o u t h A fr ic a t h e n t h a t b e c o m e s t h e f o r m to b e f il le d t o d o
the clearance.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d w h o c o m p l e te s t h is fo r m ?

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

W e l l t h e f o r m is

s u p p o s e d t o b e c o m p l e te d b y s o m e b o d y u n d e r Va n Zy l .

N o w i n t h is

p a r t ic u l a r c a s e , th e p e r s o n w h o i s s u p p o s e d t o h a v e fi ll e d t h a t f o r m
lo o k in g a t th a t – i f o n e is l o o k i n g a t t h i s p a r t ic u l a r o n e , i t b e c o m e s a
N ts h is i w h o w a s a W a r r a n t O ff ic e r C l a s s 1 a t t h e ti m e , th a t ’s r e f e r r e d
u n d e r i n q u ir y, s o h e ’s t h e o n e w h o f ill e d th e f o r m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: B u t t h e n a t th e e n d o f t h e
d a y, th e p e r s o n w h o t a k e s r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f w h a t e v e r c h a n g e s a r e d o n e
10

t h e r e b e c o m e s Va n Z y l w h o s ig n s i t a t th e b o t t o m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : H e s i g n e d a t t h e b o tt o m t h e r e , y e s th a n k
y o u a n d t h e n R S A 0 4 , th a t c le a r a n c e , w h a t is i t a b o u t ?
G E N E R A L D E R R IC K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

Th a t o n e i t ’s a n a i r c r a ft

w h ic h i s w i th in t h e b o r d e r s o f S o u t h A f r i c a b u t a g a i n i t ’s g o i n g t o l a n d
a t t h e Ai r Fo r c e B a s e , s o i t b e c o m e s th a t o n e b u t t h i s p a r ti c u l a r o n e
w a s a r e q u e s t w h ic h w a s s p e a k i n g t o - a b o u t s e v e n h e l ic o p t e r s a n d t w o
fi x e d w i n g e d a ir c r a f t w h ic h w e r e g o in g t o b e p l a y in g a r o l e i n m o v in g
t h is d e l e g a ti o n fr o m W a t e r k lo o f to s o m e w h e r e in t h e a r e a o f S u n C i ty,
P il a n s b e r g .
20

A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s a n d t h is t o o w o u ld b e s ig n e d b y

C o l o n e l Va n Zy l?
G E N E R A L D E R R IC K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: S a m e s to r y t h e in q u ir y is
N ts h is i a n d s ig n e d b y Va n Zy l b e c a u s e i t ’s k i n d o f s p o k e t o o n e
m is s i o n , y o u c a n c a ll th a t b e c a u s e i t w a s a m is s i o n th e r e f o r e th a t
m is s i o n h a d t o b e d o n e t h e s a m e i n d iv id u a ls .

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s t h a n k y o u a n d t h e n w h e n y o u s a i d to

t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t – y o u r i n v e s ti g a t i o n s r e v e a l e d th a t t h e r e w a s a n
e m a i l t h a t w a s s e n t b y a PA t o M a t ji l a a n d t h e n M a t ji la s e n t it , w e r e y o u
r e fe r r i n g t o th e e m a i l t h a t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 1 9 9 a n d t h e o n e a p p e a r in g
at 198?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

Ye s I s e e .

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . A n d t h e n a t p a g e 2 0 0 y o u
t h e n s u m m a r is e th e e v e n ts a n d t h e n y o u m a k e y o u r fi n d i n g s a s th e
B o a r d a t p a g e – t h e y s ta r t fr o m p a g e 2 0 6 .
10

G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: Ye s I s e e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , c o u l d y o u j u s t s u m m a r i s e fo r th e

C h a ir p e r s o n t h o s e v e r y i m p o r t a n t f i n d in g s t h a t y o u m a d e a f te r y o u h a d
h e a r d a l l t h i s e v i d e n c e , y o u h a d r e a d a ll t h e s t a te m e n ts t h a t w e r e
s u b m i tt e d a n d t h e n w h a t w e r e y o u r fi n d i n g s ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

W e ll a c c o r d i n g t o w h a t

w a s e x p e c t e d to h a p p e n t h e r e , i s t h a t th e B o a r d o f in q u ir y in fa c t c a m e
t o r e a li s e t h a t th e A ir F o r c e a n d t h e D e f e n c e I n t e l li g e n c e t h e y k n e w
a b o u t th e r e q u e s t a n d t h e p r o p o s a l a n d t h is b e c a m e q u i te c l e a r
r o u n d a b o u t t h e 2 8 t h o f F e b r u a r y a n d o f c o u r s e fo r e ig n r e l a t i o n d i d
20

r e c e i v e t h e c o p i e s t h a t t h e r e w i ll b e p e o p le a n d o f c o u r s e a ls o i t
( in d is ti n c t) s e e m in g ly c o n f ir m e d w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d f o r t h is is i t w a s a
c o m m u n ic a ti o n b e t w e e n D I R C O , o f c o u r s e c l a i m i n g th a t i t w a s c o m i n g
fr o M r K o l o a n e a n d th e n a l s o I n d i a n N a v y C a p t a i n C h e t ty s it t in g in t h e
H i g h C o m m is s i o n o f I n d i a t h e n a l l w h a t t h e y w e r e s a y i n g t h e r e w e r e
g o i n g t o b e t w o o r t h r e e M i n is t e r s c o m i n g in , th is w a s t h e k i n d o f

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
m e n ti o n b e in g m a d e a n d o f c o u r s e A n d e r s o n a ls o s e e m in g ly h a v e
c o n fir m e d a n d p r o b a b ly t o ld N ts h is i t h a t a c c o r d i n g t o M r K o l o a n e t h i s is
k n o w n a n d A n d e r s o n a l s o m e n t i o n e d t h e q u e s t io n o f

number one,

b e c a u s e – r e l a ti n g n u m b e r o n e i n th e S o u t h A f r ic a n c o n t e x t w it h th e
President.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s is t h a t w h a t y o u m e n ti o n i n p a r a g r a p h
28D?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:
q u i te
10

c le a r

that

th e

A ir

Fo r c e

s tr u c t u r e s

Ye s s o th e n it b e c o m e s
were

not

n e c e s s a r il y

c o m m u n ic a ti n g w i th in t h e A ir F o r c e , b e c a u s e y o u w o u l d h a v e A n d e r s o n
n o t n e c e s s a r i ly

g iv i n g

f u l l in f o r m a t io n

to

h is

Commander

w h o ’s

M a t u m a n e a n d a ls o y o u h a v e M a t u m a n e n o t n e c e s s a r i ly p l a y in g h i s r o l e
in a l l t h a t w a s h a p p e n in g .

W h y o n e is s a y in g th is i n te r ms o f t h e

fi n d i n g s , n o w A n d e r s o n b e g in s to c h a n g e t h e fu r n i tu r e w i th o u t te ll i n g
a n y b o d y a t t h e A ir F o r c e B a s e w h ic h w e d o n ’ t d o t h a t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , w h e n y o u s a y, c h a n g i n g th e

f u r n i tu r e , w h e r e w a s t h i s f u r n it u r e ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

A t t h e lo u n g e b e c a u s e

t h e r e w a s g o i n g t o b e a r e c e p t i o n s o s h e d e c i d e d t o c h a n g e t h e – w h ic h
20

w a s s u i ti n g th a t a n d d e c o r a t e d t h e w a y i t w a s e x p e c t e d b y t h o s e w h o
w e r e g o i n g to d e c o r a t e a n d a ls o s h e t h e n a ll o w s t h a t t h e r e m u s t b e
cultural groupings and then photographs, people with cameras came in
a n d th e n a n u m b e r o f c a r s c a m e i n a g a i n n o b o d y s e e m s t o b e a w a r e
e x c e p t A n d e r s o n in t h i s p a r ti c u la r c a s e .

S o th e s e a r e t h e t h i n g s th a t

b e c o m e s v i s i b l e a n d i f y o u l o o k a t th e r o l e o f th e – w h a t I’ ll c a l l f o r th is

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
B o a r d , I’ ll c a l l i t , t h e M i li t a r y I n t e l li g e n c e O ffic e r s t h i s is w h y D e f e n c e
I n t e lli g e n c e .

Yo u w o u l d h a v e C o m m a n d e r s y o u w o u ld h a v e p e o p l e

working

th e y

but

are

M il i ta r y

I n fo r m a t io n

O ff ic e r s ,

now

t h e ir

r e s p o n s i b i li ty is t o , w h e n t h e y p ic k s o m e t h i n g w h i c h i s o u t o f t h e
o r d i n a r y th e y m u s t b e a b l e t o b r in g i t t o t h e a t t e n t io n o f t h e C o m m a n d e r
a n d t h o s e s t r u c t u r e s a r e d e v e lo p e d b y t h e A i r F o r c e a n d th e y a r e
a v a i la b le a t th e A i r F o r c e B a s e W a te r k l o o f . N o w th e q u e s ti o n is , w h e n
a l l t h is w a s h a p p e n i n g , f u r n i t u r e w a s b e i n g c h a n g e d , a n d p e o p l e w e r e
m a k i n g t h e s e a r r a n g e m e n t s , w h e r e w e r e t h e y, t o w h o m d i d th e y r e p o r t
10

a n d th is a g a in b e c o m e s g l a r i n g i n te r m s o f th e w i t n e s s e s o f t h e s y s t e m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

A n d o f c o u r s e th e y a r e

tr a i n e d a n d p r e p a r e d i n d i ff e r e n t ( i n d is ti n c t) a n d d iv is i o n s b u t th a t ’s a
r e s p o n s i b i li ty to e m p o w e r a n d t r a i n th e m o f th e C h i e f o f D e f e n c e
I n t e lli g e n c e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s c a n I ju s t t a k e y o u b a c k t o – o r m a y b e
t a k e y o u to p a r a g r a p h F, 2 8 F.
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

W h e r e y o u d e a l w i th t h e r o l e o f t h e

in t e l li g e n c e n o t k n o w i n g th is a ir c r a f t . W h a t w a s – w h a t o u g h t t o h a v e
h a p p e n e d a s s o o n a s m a y b e s u p p o s in g t h a t th e r e w a s a n i n d ic a ti o n o r
a r e q u e s t t h a t t h e r e is t h i s a ir c r a f t c o m i n g f r o m a n o th e r c o u n tr y in t o
t h e c o u n tr y.

W h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e r o l e o f i n t e lli g e n c e th e r e

in s o f a r a s t h a t a ir c r a f t is c o n c e r n e d ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

Page 52 of 120

Th e fir s t t h i n g y o u h a v e

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
g o t s e v e n h e li c o p t e r s la n d i n g v e r y e a r l y i n th e m o r n in g a n d t h e n y o u
g o t t w o f ix e d [ i n d is ti n c t ] la n d i n g l a t e r o n a n d y o u t h e n g e t t o k n o w t h a t
t h o s e w h o a r e i n c o m m a n d a t a h i g h e r l e v e l t h a n th o s e w h o w e r e w i t h i n
the base do not know what is happening.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: A n d o f c o u r s e a n h o u r o r
t w o l a t e r y o u h a v e g o t th e a ir b u s l a n d i n g .

Again the question is if

t h o s e a ir c r a f t w h ic h l a n d e d a b o u t t w o h o u r s e a r l ie r w e r e k n o w n a n d
t h e n th e y w e r e i n t e r r o g a t e d a n d i t w a s u n d e r s to o d w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g
10

s o m e b o d y w a s s u p p o s e d t o r e p o r t t o t h e s e n io r s a n d t h e n th a t t w o
h o u r s l a t e r t h a t a i r b u s i f it w a s – s i n c e i t w a s n o t a p p r o v e d b y t h e
M i n is t e r a n d t h e C h i e f o f t h e Ai r Fo r c e w a s a w a r e a n d t h e C h ie f o f
I n t e lli g e n c e w a s a w a r e a n d t h e C h i e f o f D e fe n c e F o r c e w a s a w a r e t h e n
t h e r e is n o w a y i f t h o s e i n t e l li g e n c e o ff ic e r s o r in f o r m a t io n o ffi c e r s d i d
p ic k u p th a t i n fo r m a ti o n a n d r e p o r t i t c o r r e c t ly.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o t h a t …
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: S o t h e a i r c r a f t w o u l d n o t
h a v e la n d e d t w o h o u r s l a te r.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . B e c a u s e t h e y w o u l d h a v e p r e v e n t e d

20

it fr o m la n d i n g ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

T h e y w o u ld h a v e p i c k e d

t h e fi r s t o n e s u p .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: A n d t h e n t h e y w o u l d h a v e
k n o w n t h a t s o m e t h i n g is w r o n g a n d t h e n w e c a n n o t ju s t h a v e s e v e n

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
h e li c o p t e r s l a n d i n g in a b a s e a n d n o b o d y r e p o r ts i t.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Al r i g h t t h a n k y o u . A n d th e n c a n w e
m o v e o n o r c a n h i g h li g h t j u s t t h o s e t h a t y o u b e li e v e a r e q u i t e
i m p o r t a n t.
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: S o r r y ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d G e n e r a l
thank you.
G E N E R A L D E R R IC K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

O k a y.

Then of course

w h a t th e n b e c o m e s c l e a r i n t e r m s o f t h e fi n d i n g t h e li n k b e tw e e n t h e
10

C h i e f o f t h e A ir F o r c e a n d t h e C h i e f o f D e f e n c e I n te ll ig e n c e a n d w i t h i n
t h e ir o w n s tr u c t u r e s a l s o g o i n g d o w n th e r e s e e m s t o b e in t e r m s o f
c o m m u n ic a ti o n a l i t tl e b i t o f w e a k n e s s i n th e l i n k s a n d s h a r i n g
in f o r m a ti o n th e r e .

T h a t is w h a t w e a t le a s t – a n d c l e a r i n g a n d

a u t h o r i s a t io n a g a i n o f t h e – o f t h a t a ir c r a f t a t t h e b a s e i t i s t h e p o l ic y –
t h e p o l ic y f r a m e w o r k w h i c h g u id e s t h a t n o t th e S O P, n o t t h e S t a n d a r d
O p e r a t in g P o lic y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:
c le a r t h a t t h e r e i s a r e q u ir e m e n t fo r t h a t.
20

Th e n a l s o i t w a s q u i t e

Even the approving cell at

t h e A ir F o r c e C o m m a n d P o s t t h e a p p r o v i n g c e l l th e y w e r e a b l e t o d o
what they did.

N o w y o u w o u l d f i n d th a t t h is Va n Z y l w a s a l m o s t o n e

m o n th in t h e p o s t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: B e c a u s e h e w a s s t a n d i n g
in f o r s o m e b o d y w h o a t te n d e d a c o u r s e . N o w o f c o u r s e i f y o u t a k e t h a t

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
c h e c k lis t w h e r e y o u a r e g o i n g t o t ic k t h e b o x e s n o w y o u a n s w e r
y o u r s e l f a q u e s ti o n . D id Va n Zy l i n t e r r o g a te t h a t e v e n i f h e [ i n d is ti n c t ]
s o d id h e i n t e r r o g a t e t h a t.

N o w h e w a s r e ly i n g o n N ts h is i b u t N ts h i s i

h i m s e l f th e n y o u w o u ld f in d th a t N t s h is i i n fa c t h a d h i s o w n c h a ll e n g e s
a n d h e w a s a s k in g a ll t h e r i g h t q u e s t i o n s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: Fr o m A n d e r s o n , Fr o m t h e
D e f e n c e A t t a c h é , fr o m M a t ji la , fr o m M r K o l o a n e h e w a s a s k i n g a ll th e
r ig h t q u e s ti o n s .
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ys.
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

And he knew what was

w r o n g t h e q u e s t io n is d i d h e s h a r e th a t in f o r m a ti o n f o r Va n Z y l t o m a k e
a d e c i s i o n – a n i n fo r m e d d e c is i o n .

I f y o u l o o k a t th a t t h e r e is

s o m e t h i n g w h i c h is n o t g e ll in g s o s o m e t h i n g is w r o n g t h e r e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: S o t h is is w h y I a m s a y in g
f o r m e i f y o u l o o k a t [i n d is t in c t ] t h a t a p p r o v in g c e l l w a s a b le t o h id e
a n d le d to a d e c i s i o n w h i c h t h e r e q u e s t w a s a p p r o v e d . A n d a g a in t h a t
r e q u e s t i f y o u lo o k a t it t h e r e i s n o w h e r e w h e r e M r K o l o a n e s i g n e d
20

a n y th in g e x c e p t t h a t s o m e b o d y s a y s a n d fr o m h is o ffic e a v e r b a l
a p p r o v a l h a s b e e n d o n e . E v e n i n th e e m a i l.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R IC K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: B u t d o w e w o r k o n v e r b a l
a p p r o v a l ? D o w e w o r k o n e m a il s ? A n d t h e a n s w e r i s n o .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d t h o s e a r e t h e s ta n d a r d p r a c t ic e s

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w i t h i n th e d e f e n c e f o r c e ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: A n d o ffi c e r s i t ti n g a t t h e
le v e l o f a L i e u t e n a n t C o lo n e l s h o u ld h a v e k n o w n t h a t.

A Sergeant

M a jo r w it h th e e x p e r i e n c e o f N ts h is i s h o u l d h a v e p ic k e d th a t u p a n d
t h e n t h e y s h o u l d h a v e s a i d n o t h i s is n o t o n .

A n d th e n t h e y s h o u l d

h a v e r e q u e s te d f o r a b e t t e r fo r m a l a t le a s t i n f o r m a ti o n c o m i n g fr o m
D IR C O .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: T h e y d id n o t.
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I t a p p e a r s fr o m M r – M a j o r N t s h is i’s

e v i d e n c e th a t w h e n h e g o t t h e c a l l fr o m A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e a n d t h a t
w a s – a n d t h e n t h e e m a i l fr o m M r M a tj il a h e l o o k e d a t i t a n d h e t h o u g h t
t h is w a s a l l a p p r o p r i a te . B u t I j u s t w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d is h e a ll o w e d a s
a M a jo r to ta k e i n s tr u c t io n s f r o m a n A m b a s s a d o r w h o f a lls w i t h i n
D IR C O ?
G E N E R A L D E R R IC K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: T h e A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e
is s i t t in g a t a h i g h e r l e v e l i n a n o t h e r g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:
20

The formal way of

c o m m u n ic a ti o n b e t w e e n th e t w o g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t s s h o u l d b e a
w r i t t e n o n e a n d a g a in i t s h o u l d g o t h e r ig h t l e v e l . A n d t h e n a n y p e r s o n
a t a l e v e l 4 , l e v e l 3 s h o u ld b e r e c e iv in g d ir e c t io n o r d e r s i n s tr u c ti o n s
fr o m h i s o r h e r o n l y c o m m a n d e r s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R IC K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: S o t h e r e w a s n o w a y t h a t

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t h e y s h o u l d h a v e i m p l e m e n te d w h a te v e r th a t w a s c o m i n g f r o m M r
K o lo a n e w i t h o u t c l e a r i n g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W i th t h e c o m m a n d e r ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: W i t h th e i r c o m m a n d e r s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u h a v e s a id t h a t i t i s n o t c le a r w h e t h e r M a j o r

N ts h is i t o l d M r Va n Zy l e v e r y t h i n g t h a t h e s h o u l d h a v e t o ld h i m .

He

s a i d h e r e y e s t e r d a y t h a t is M r N ts h i s i , M a j o r N ts h i s i t h a t h e t o l d M r Va n
Zy l e v e r y t h i n g fr o m t h e b e g i n n i n g o f t h is r e q u e s t o r h is i n v o l v e m e n t u p
10

t o th e p o i n t w h e r e h e w e n t t o h i m f o r h i m t o m a k e a d e c i s i o n . I s t h a t
c o n s i s te n t w i th w h a t h e t o l d y o u d u r in g th e i n q u ir y, t h e b o a r d i n q u ir y ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: T h e S e r g e a n t M a jo r w h e n
w e a s k a l l t h e s e q u e s ti o n s i t b e c a m e q u i t e c le a r t h a t th e S e r g e a n t
M a jo r w a s a w a r e o f w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g .

B u t t h e i n f o r m a ti o n s h a r e d

w i t h Va n Z y l i s n o t i n fa c t r e fl e c t in g w h a t h e w a s a w a r e a b o u t a l l t h e
ti m e . T h a t is o n h i s s i d e h e d i d n o t n e c e s s a r il y s h a r e e v e r y th in g . B u t
a g a in Va n Zy l h a s g o t a r e s p o n s i b i li ty th a t h e i s a s e n i o r p e r s o n a n d h e
is a n a c c o u n ti n g a n d r e s p o n s i b l e fo r w h a t h e d o e s .

L o o k in g a t th e –

t h a t S O P a n d l o o k in g a t t h e b o x e s t o b e t ic k e d h e a ls o h a d a t le a s t a
20

d u t y t o a s k th e r e l e v a n t q u e s ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w a s I u n d e r s ta n d t h e p o s i ti o n t o t h e e x te n t t h a t Mr
Va n Z y l ’s i n fo r m a ti o n w a s t h a t t h e a ir c r a f t t h a t w a s g o in g to b e b r i n g i n g
t h e s e v is i to r s w a s g o i n g t o b e c o m m e r c ia l a ir c r a f t f o r p u r p o s e s o f
a l lo w in g i t t o l a n d a t Wa t e r k l o o f h e c o u l d o n ly a ll o w i t a s I u n d e r s ta n d
t h e p o s i t io n i f i t w a s b r i n g i n g a h e a d o f s t a t e , d e p u ty h e a d o f s ta t e o r

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s o m e n a t io n a l m i n i s t e r s is t h a t u n d e r s t a n d i n g c o r r e c t ?
G E N E R A L D E R R IC K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: C h a ir y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g
is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d is i t a l s o c o r r e c t th a t s u c h a n a ir c r a f t in o r d e r f o r
h i m t o a ll o w i t t h e r e w o u l d h a v e h a d t o b e a n o t e v e r b a l t h a t h e w o u ld
h a v e r e c e iv e d ?
G E N E R A L D E R R IC K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

A note verbal would be

c o m i n g fr o m t h e D I R C O .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

A n d t h e n i n d ic a ti n g t h e

d e l e g a ti o n a n d t h e n a tu r e o f t h e d e le g a t i o n a n d t h e n a t u r e o f t h e v i s i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

So is it correct to say one of the things he

w o u ld h a v e l o o k e d fo r t o f in d o u t w h ic h – fi n d o u t i f i t w a s t h e r e w o u l d
h a v e b e e n th e n o t e v e r b a l ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: H e s h o u l d h a v e a s k e d f o r
the note verbal.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R IC K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: A n d to c o n f ir m t h e n a t u r e
of the visit.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: A n d d e l e g a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: And if he was – if he did not get a note verbal and got
s o m e t h i n g e ls e is i t c o r r e c t t h a t i n t e r m s o f t h e p r o c e d u r e s t h e n h e
should not have provided clearance?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

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CHAIRPERSON:

O b v io u s ly h e r e h e d id n o t fi n d a n y n o te v e r b a l s o

w o u ld i t b e c o n s is t e n t w i t h y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g w h e n y o u p r e s i d e d i n
t h e i n q u ir y t h a t h e p r o v i d e d c le a r a n c e k n o w i n g th a t t h e r e w a s n o n o t e
v e r b a l a n d th e r e f o r e t h a t t h is w a s n o t r ig h t .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

Th e c h a ll e n g e w i t h h i m

w i t h t h e b e n e f i t o f d o u b t i n t e r m s o f b e in g in t h a t p o s t a l t h o u g h s e n i o r
a s i t m ig h t b e b e in g o n e m o n t h a n d t h e e x p e r i e n c e a n d a ls o t h e e a s e o f
h a n d i n g o v e r a n d ta k i n g o v e r w h e t h e r t h a t [ i n d is ti n c t ] h a n d o v e r ta k e
o v e r w a s d o n e w h ic h th e n mi g h t h a v e l e d t o a g a p . B u t i n …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

T h i n g s b e in g e q u a l h i s

[i n d is t in c t] [c o u g h in g ] n o t h a v e a p p r o v e d t h a t r e q u e s t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Ye s .

H e w a s s t a n d in g i n o n t h a t d a y f o r

s o m e b o d y e ls e b u t h i s p o s i ti o n w i th in t h e A ir F o r c e w o u l d it n o t h a v e
b e e n a p o s i t i o n t h a t w o u ld h a v e m e a n t t h a t h e w o u l d h a v e k n o w n w h a t
t h e r e q u ir e m e n t a r e ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

C h a ir c o m i n g fr o m a

d i ff e r e n t e n v ir o n m e n t w i th in th e a i r f o r c e h e m i g h t n o t n e c e s s a r ily h a v e
t h e n i t ty g r i t ty a n d d e t a ils o f w h a t is r e q u ir e d .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y, o k a y.
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: A n d t h i s is w h y C h a ir o n e
w o u ld s a y i f t h e n t h e a ir fo r c e a n d h i m s e l f t h e y d i d h a n d o v e r a n d t a k e
o v e r t h a t th e o n e w h o w a s g o i n g o n l e a v e b r o u g h t o n b o a r d a li t t le b i t –
t h e o n e w a s t a k i n g – g o i n g t o t a k e o v e r b r o u g h t o n b o a r d a l i t tl e b i t
e a r l ie r s o th a t t h e y c a n s it t o g e t h e r a n d t a k e o n e t h r o u g h t h a t p r o c e s s

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s o th a t w h e n o n e fi n a ll y is in c h a r g e i n th e a b s e n c e o f t h e p e r s o n w h o
h a s b e e n d o i n g i t h e is a b l e to s e e a n y g a p s .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
G E N E R A L D E R R IC K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

A g a in t h a t l e d t o t h is

s i tu a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. T h a n k y o u . T h e n m a y
y o u t h e n p r o c e e d a g a i n – is t h e r e a n y o th e r o n e th a t y o u w i s h t o
h i g h l ig h t? I t h i n k y o u h a v e d e a l t w i t h J a s w e l l . B u t t h e n w h a t f o ll o w s
10

y o u t h e n f o u n d t h a t c e r t a i n p e o p le s h o u l d b e h e l d a c c o u n t a b l e f o r
w h a t e v e r n o n - c o m p l i a n c e w i th p r o c e d u r e s w e r e a n d y o u d e a l w i th th o s e
in p a r a g r a p h 3 0 o f th e r e p o r t . T h a t w o u ld b e a t p a g e 2 0 9 .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: 2 0 0 a n d ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 209.
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: 2 0 9 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

3 0 A Va n Zy l d i d a p p r o v e

a n d a u t h o r is e th e l a n d i n g w i t h o u t p r o p e r c h e c k i n g a n d c o m p l y i n g w it h
t h e a ir f o r c e i n s tr u c t io n . N o w t h a t a i r f o r c e i n s tr u c ti o n m a i n l y s p e a k to
20

t h e is s u e s o f w h a t n e e d s t o b e d o n e s o h e d id n o t a n d a l s o t h e S O P
w h ic h s p e a k s t o t h e o v e r fly i n g a n d la n d i n g r i g h t s . S o …
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u fo u n d t h a t h e w a s – h e m u s t b e h e ld
responsible?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d th e n N ts h is i ?

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G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: N t s h is i y e s f o r fa c i li t a ti n g
a n d i n fl u e n c i n g t h e a p p r o v a l o f t h e r e q u e s t w h il e k n o w i n g t h a t i t d o e s
n o t c o m p ly w i t h t h e a ir fo r c e i n s tr u c ti o n a n d t h e S O P.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R IC K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

A n d e r s o n fo r a d v i s i n g

N ts h is i w r o n g l y b e c a u s e w h e n N ts h is i g o e s t h e r e a n d t h e n h e s e t s a
o n e h e m e n ti o n e d a g a i n A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e a n d th e n h e m e n ti o n e d –
s h e m e n t io n s n u m b e r 1 .

N o w o b v io u s ly t h a t k i n d o f i n fo r m a ti o n

A n d e r s o n b e in g a n o ff ic e r N ts h is i b e in g a S e r g e a n t M a j o r th e r e is a
10

c h a l le n g e t h e r e b e c a u s e n o w N t s h is i is a S e r g e a n t M a j o r w h o is a
Wa r r a n t O ffic e r w h ic h is n o t a c o m m is s i o n e d o ff ic e r.

A n d e r s o n is a n

o ffic e r, a c o m m is s i o n e d o ff ic e r h e s h o u l d u n d e r s ta n d w h a t h e s a y s t o
N ts h is i a n d N t s h is i is s u p p o s e d t o t a k e a t l e a s t w i t h c o n fi d e n c e w h a t a
c o m m i s s io n e d o ffi c e r s a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: S o y e s – w e l l M r K o l o a n e
if y o u l o o k a t w h a t th e n is c o m i n g f r o m t h e d o c u m e n t fr o m h is o ffi c e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:
20

Was saying here there

w a s a m is i n f o r m a t i o n c o m in g fr o m h is e n v ir o n m e n t t o s a y th is is a V I P
c o m i n g i n . Th e r e a r e M in is t e r s w h ic h a r e g o i n g to b e la n d i n g t h e r e a n d
w e t a k e th e s e a n d w e d i d n o t i n t e r v i e w h i m . B u t w e t a k e t h is b e c a u s e
1 . H e w a s g o i n g t o b e a p p e a r i n g i n th e o n e w h ic h w a s b e in g d o n e
a t g o v e r n m e n t le v e l .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e e m a i l a n e n q u ir y ?

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: In t e r m s o f e n q u ir y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: S o w e s a i d
1 . B a s e d o n w h a t N ts h is i is s a y i n g a n d b a s e d o n w h a t A n d e r s o n i s
s a y in g a n d b a s e d o n th e d o c u m e n ts f lo w i n g fr o m a PA in h i s
o ffic e t h is in f o r m a t io n w a s m i s l e a d in g th e r e fo r e s o m e t h i n g n e e d s
to be done.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: In r e la t io n to M r K o l o a n e .
10

A n d t h e n t h e c a p t a i n f r o m I n d i a a ls o w i t h a ll th e w r i t in g s t h e r e w a s
m is in f o r m a t io n a n d [ in d i s ti n c t ] t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f D e fe n c e t h e r e f o r
t h e m t o a c c e p t w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g . A n d a g a in h i s e n tr y p o i n t to t h e
D e f e n c e Fo r c e w a s w r o n g . S o th a t c a p t a in fr o m I n d i a k n e w w h a t w a s
h a p p e n in g .

A n d h e k n e w th a t t h e s e w e r e n o t m i n i s te r s a n d h e k n e w

t h a t i n fa c t i t w a s n o t a n o ff ic i a l v i s i t . Th e r e fo r e h e w a s m is le a d i n g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d th e n y o u a l s o d e a l w it h s e c u r it y
m a t t e r s w h e th e r t h e r e w e r e a n y s e c u r i ty b r e a c h e s a s a r e s u l t o f t h a t
in c i d e n t .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: W h e n y o u – a g a i n N ts h i s i
20

t h e n in te r ms o f u s i n g th e c o m m u n i c a t i o n w i t h th e p e o p le h e w a s
c o m m u n ic a ti n g t o w h ic h h e w a s n o t a w a r e t h a t in t e r m s o f t h e
t e l e p h o n e t h a t t h e r e w e r e r e c o r d in g h a p p e n i n g t h e n i t fi n a l ly tr a n s p ir e d
d u r i n g t h a t p e r i o d w h e n h e w a s d o i n g a ll t h e s e p h o n e h e a ls o p h o n e d
a n o t h e r l a d y w h e r e t h e n d is c u s s i n g th is k i n d o f e v e n t a n d a l s o i n t e r m s
o f a s k i n g t h is l a d y to a s s is t K o l o a n e I m e a n n o t K o l o a n e Mr K o lo a n e .

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
To a s s is t N ts h is i t o g e t s o m e k i n d o f e m p lo y m e n t s o m e w h e r e e ls e . S o
t h e n a g a i n N t s h is i t h e n b e c o m e s a l it t le b i t
1 . S e c u r i ty w i s e d is c u s s i n g is s u e s o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t w it h a c iv il ia n
outside and
2 . T h e n y o u g e t to u n d e r s t a n d t h a t h e h a s g o t o th e r in t e r e s ts in
t e r m s o f p o s s i b l y e m p l o y m e n t o u ts id e th e d e f e n c e f o r c e .
A n d t h e n t h e r e w a s a fo r e ig n r e l a t i o n o ff i c e r b y th e n a m e o f K h u m a lo .
I n t h e w r i ti n g s o f th e d e f e n c e f o r e i g n r e l a ti o n s h e g e t c o p i e d b y th e
o ffic e r fr o m t h e E m b a s s y o f In d ia t h e c a p ta in a n d a ls o w h e n fo r e ig n
10

r e l a ti o n s r e c e iv e d t h e s a m e l e tt e r w h ic h s p e a k s a b o u t th is th e y s e n t i t
t o C o l o n e l K h u m a l o b u t w h e n K h u m a l o a p p e a r s b e f o r e th e b o a r d s h e
c la i m e d ig n o r a n c e a b o u t t h e tw o d o c u m e n t s w h ic h s h e w a s s u p p o s e d to
h a v e r e c e iv e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R IC K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

S o o b v io u s ly a g a i n t h e

r e l i a b il it y t h e r e o f th e C o l o n e l b e c o m e s a c h a ll e n g e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:
there
20

is

an

absence

of

p r o p e r ly

guided

Th e n w e a r e a l s o s a y i n g
and

i n fo r m e d

counter

in t e l li g e n c e s o t h o s e m il i ta r y o ffic e r s I w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t t h a t fr o m a
s e c u r i ty p o i n t o f v i e w th e r e w a s a l a c k i n te r ms o f t h a t .

So security

w a s c o m p r o m is e d b e c a u s e p e o p l e a r e tr a in e d , p e o p le w h o w e r e t h e r e
t h e y s a w a l l t h i s b u t th e y d i d n o t r e p o r t .

S o t h e s e c u r i ty w a s b r e a c h e d

t h e r e . A n d a g a in i f y o u lo o k a t t h e q u e s ti o n o f t h e c o m m u n ic a ti o n w i th
t h e o th e r g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts a t w h a t l e v e l s o o b v io u s ly t h a t is D

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
t h e c o m m u n ic a ti o n o f t h e p e r s o n n e l o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t w i th th e
m e m b e r s o f th e d i p l o m a ti c c o r e w h e r e t h e y w e r e ta lk in g d ir e c t a n d
li a is i n g y o u w o u ld l o o k a t a S e r g e a n t M a jo r s p e a k in g t o s o m e b o d y i n
t h e n a m e o f K h e ti a s a c a p t a i n i n t h e I n d i a n H ig h C o m m i s s io n h e h a s
g o t n o b u s i n e s s to d o th a t b u t h e w a s d o i n g .
a g a in g e t c o m p r o m i s e d .

S o [ in d is ti n c t ] s e c u r i ty

S o t h e s e a r e t h e is s u e s w h ic h s p e a k s t o

s e c u r i ty.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:
10

Th e c i v i li a n s c a m e i n to

d u r i n g t h e la n d i n g , th e y c a m e in , t h e y t o o k p i c tu r e s .

R e m e m b e r th is

b a s e is a a t l e a s t u n d e r s t o o d t o b e a s tr a te g i c m i li t a r y f a c i li t y a n d
t h e r e f o r e y o u – n o b o d y i s s u p p o s e d t o t a k e p ic t u r e s a n d i f y o u d o y o u
m u s t b e a u t h o r is e d . B u t h e r e p e o p le c a m e i n , t h e y t o o k p ic t u r e s . A n d
o f c o u r s e c iv il ia n v e h ic le s c a m e i n , t h e y w e r e a b l e t o e n t e r a n d d r iv e
a r o u n d . A g a i n th e r e w a s a c h a l le n g e t h e r e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

A n d th e n i n t h e f o ll o w i n g y o u

a n a ly s e th e p o li c i e s , t h e s t a n d a r d o p e r a ti n g p r o c e d u r e s a n d h o w th e y
a p p li e d o r t h e y o u g h t to h a v e b e e n a p p li e d ?

Yo u h a v e a lr e a d y

s u m m a r i s e d t h a t y o u f o u n d t h a t p e o p l e f a il e d t o d o w h a t t h e y w e r e
20

s u p p o s e d to d o .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

Th e y f a i le d to d o w h a t

t h e y a r e s u p p o s e d to d o b u t a g a in t h o s e tw o d o c u m e n ts a r e n o t
n e c e s s a r i ly s p e a k i n g to t h e a u t h o r is a ti o n o f t h e a ir c r a f t to l a n d . O n e is
s p e a k i n g to t h e is s u e o f th e a ir c r a f t l a n d i n g t h e r e , i s it g o in g t o n e e d
f u e l a n d if i t is g o i n g t o b e n e e d i n g f u e l t h e n t h e b a s e m u s t p r e p a r e

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
f u e l a n d th e n a ls o t h e y a r e s u p p o s e d to c h a r g e d f o r th e f u e l w h ic h is
c o m i n g f r o m d e f e n c e s o d e f e n c e w a n ts t o s p e a k t o th a t .

The second

o n e is l o o k in g a t a te c h n i c a l is s u e o f is th i s a ir c r a f t i n f a c t a b l e t o l a n d
in t h i s a ir s tr i p a n d t h e n t h e s i z e o f t h e a ir c r a f t a n d o f c o u r s e t h e s a f e ty
s o th a t y o u c a n p r e p a r e i n te r m s o f t h e f ir e f i g h t in g a n d th e e m e r g e n c y
s id e . M a i n ly th a t is t h a t . S o th o s e a r e t h e t e c h n ic a l t h i n g s c le a r a n c e
to land.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: B u t n o w a u th o r is e t o la n d .
10

S o t h e r e is a d o c u m e n t w h ic h i s m is s in g . S o t h e a ir fo r c e is e x p e c t e d –
w a s e x p e c t e d to h a v e d e v e lo p e d a d o c u m e n t w h i c h s p e a k s t o th e
a c t u a ll y a u t h o r i s a t io n n o t c l e a r a n c e .

S o t h e tw o d o c u m e n ts j u s t t h e y

a r e t h e r e b u t t h e r e is a p o l ic y m i s s i n g p a r t o f i t.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

S o i t j u s t w e n t d ir e c t t o

a n S O P. 3 4 s p e a k s t o w h a t I h a v e a lr e a d y m e n ti o n e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

That we came to a

r e a l is a t i o n a s a b o a r d t h a t b e t w e e n D IR C O a n d t h e D O D th e r e s h o u l d
20

b e a p o lic y w h ic h g o v e r n t h i s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o t h a t i t s r e l a ti o n s h i p s o t h a t …
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: T h is r e l a ti o n s h i p s o t h a t i t
is d o c u m e n t e d i t d o e s n o t r e l y o n p e r s o n a l it ie s . I t i s i n fo r m e d b y p o li c y
a n d a t l e a s t e v e n if i t i s a w o r k in g p r o c e d u r e . S o t h a t is w h a t w e a r e
s a y in g t h e r e .

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d t h e n – t h e n y o u a n a l y s e a ll t h e
p o li c y m a t t e r s th a t s h o u l d b e a d h e r e d t o b u t t h e n I w o u ld l ik e t o ta k e
y o u th e n t o – y o u a ls o h i g h l ig h t w h a t c o r r e c ti v e m e a s u r e s o u g h t to b e
t a k e n . B u t I w o u l d li k e t o t a k e y o u to t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s o r m a y b e
b e f o r e th a t a t p a g e 2 1 9 .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Yo u d e a l t h e r e w i t h a n y o t h e r r e la t e d

m a t t e r s t h a t m a y b e b r o u g h t t o t h e b o a r d ’s a t t e n t io n d u r i n g t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n a n d y o u h ig h l i g h t t h o s e fr o m p a r a g r a p h s 5 8 t o 6 1 . C o u ld
10

y o u j u s t s u m m a r is e th o s e f o r t h e C h a ir p e r s o n p l e a s e ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: 5 8 r e a d s a s s u c h :
“Mr

K o lo a n e ’s

name

was

m e n ti o n e d

by

many

w i t n e s s e s in i n fl u e n c i n g t h e d e c i s i o n to a u t h o r is e
a n d a p p r o v e th e l a n d i n g o f t h e a ir c r a f t th a t l a n d e d o n
t h e 3 0 A p r il 2 0 1 3 .
K o lo a n e

was

Th e b o a r d i s a w a r e t h a t Mr

interviewed

d u r in g

the

d ir e c t o r s ’

g e n e r a ls ’ i n v e s ti g a ti o n r e g a r d i n g th is m a t t e r.

It

w o u ld b e p r o p e r t h a t t h e c o n v e n in g a u th o r i t y w h ic h
h a p p e n e d w i th t h e d e f e n c e f o r c e h e r e r e q u e s t a c o p y
20

o f th e i n v e s ti g a t i o n o r h is t e s t i m o n y a t a la t e r s t a g e
if it is – i f h e s o w is h e s . ”
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
GENERAL DERRICK

MBUYISELO

M G W E B I:

So

we

a r e s a y in g

s o m e t h i n g h a s to b e d o n e b u t w e d i d n o t c a l l h i m b e c a u s e h e w a s
a lr e a d y t h e r e t h a t is w h y.

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a t i n v e s ti g a ti o n i s t h e o n e th a t t h e
w i t n e s s w e h a d y e s t e r d a y M s S i n d a n e s p o k e to . T h e in q u ir y a b o u t th e
d ir e c t o r s ’ g e n e r a l .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: J a s h e w a s p a r t t h a t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: Ye s . M u s t I g o t h r o u g h ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s p l e a s e . T h a n k y o u .
G E N E R A L D E R R IC K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: T h e n w e a r e s a y i n g t h e r e
is n o c l a r i ty a n d i n t e r f e r e n c e o r d u p l ic a ti o n o f r e s p o n s ib il i ty f o r t h a t o f
10

t h e p o s t o f o ff ic e r i n c h a r g e m o v e m e n t c o n tr o l w h ic h u n d e r m i n e t h e
q u e s t io n [i n d is t in c t ] .
o r g a n i s a t io n .

N o w h e r e t h i s is s p e a k t o u s a s a – a s a n

A n d e r s o n a n d N d l u l i th e y w e r e o c c u p y i n g o n e a n d t h e

s a m e p o s ts a n d t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s i n th e p o s t w a s N d l u li n o t
A n d e r s o n . B u t A n d e r s o n i n f a c t r a n t h e s h o w. S o w e a r e s a y in g h e r e
t o t h e C h i e f o f t h e a i r f o r c e t h is t h i n g is w r o n g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R IC K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: T h e r e m u s t b e o n e p e r s o n
s o th a t y o u c a n h a v e o n e p e r s o n a c c o u n t a b l e . A n d a g a i n t h e l e v e l o f
tr a i n i n g o f t h e p e r s o n s o th a t w a s o n e o t h e r p r o b l e m w h ic h w a s a t le a s t
20

in d i c a t e d i n t e r m s o f 5 9 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

T h e b o a r d f o u n d th a t

tr a i n i n g a n d u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f c o u n t e r i n te lli g e n c e f u n c ti o n a n d i ts r o l e
in th e D O D w a s la c k i n g in t h e S A F – i n t h e S o u t h A f r i c a n A ir F o r c e .
T h e r e i s n o r e l a ti o n s h i p b e tw e e n t h e a i r fo r c e c o u n t e r i n te ll ig e n c e

Page 67 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
o ffic e r s a n d p r a c ti c e s a n d p r a c ti t io n e r s a t t h e D I .

N o w w h a t o n e is

s a y in g h e r e t h o s e a r e t h e p e o p le I c a l l f o r t h e s a k e o f t h is p o i n t s o t h a t
I m a k e i t a li t t le b i t e a s i e r ?

M i li t a r y i n f o r m a ti o n o ffi c e r s I c a ll t h e m .

N o w t h e ir jo b fir s tly a r e tr a i n i n g . I f y o u a r e tr a i n e d y o u s h o u ld a n d y o u
must see something wrong and when you see something wrong most of
t h e ti m e y o u s h o u l d s e e i t b e f o r e i t h a p p e n s a n d y o u s h o u l d t r y a n d
s e n s i t is e th e c o m m a n d e r s t o p r e v e n t i t f r o m h a p p e n i n g . B u t t h e a c tu a l
f u n c t i o n in g

a u th o r i ty

for

t h is

f u n c ti o n

is

the

c h ie f

of

defence

in t e l li g e n c e . B u t th e s e p e o p l e a r e f o u n d in th e a r my, th e a ir f o r c e , i n
10

t h e n a v y, in th e o t h e r d iv i s i o n s b u t c o m i n g f r o m t h e r e . S o h e r e th e r e is
a l a c k o f in t e r a c t io n a n d l a c k o f tr a in in g a n d t h e p r a c ti c e s i n d ic a te t h a t
b e c a u s e o f th e in c i d e n t w h ic h h a p p e n e d s o th is is w h a t w e a r e p i c k i n g
u p in t e r m s o f t h is .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d t h a t w o u l d a ls o b e li n k e d t o 6 1 ?
G E N E R A L D E R R IC K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: J a w h o in d iv i d u a l o ff ic e r s
w h o fu ll y u n d e r s t a n d th e p r a c t ic e w e r e a b l e t o p o r tr a y th e i r tr u s t a n d
r e s p o n s i b i li ty b e s to w e d t o t h e m a n d m a n i p u l a te t h e s tr u c t u r e – th e
s tr u c t u r a l p r o c e s s e s u n n o tic e d . T h e r e is n o c le a r d i s t i n c ti o n b e tw e e n
t h e r o l e s p l a y e d b y t h e a ir f o r c e b a s e Wa t e r k l o o f a n d t h e a ir f o r c e

20

command post.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: N o w o n e y o u w o u l d h a v e
h e r e A n d e r s o n w h o is v e r y w e l l v e r s e d w i t h t h e p r o c e s s e s a n d h e
u n d e r s t a n d – s h e u n d e r s ta n d w h a t s h o u ld h a v e h a p p e n e d .

S h e is

s i tt i n g a t th e a ir f o r c e b a s e W a t e r k l o o f , N t s h i s i is s it t i n g a t t h e a i r f o r c e

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
c o m m a n d p o s t. N o w y o u c a n s e e h o w th in g s t h e t w o o f th e m w e r e a b le
t o f a c i li t a t e t h i n g s . S o th e q u e s ti o n w o u l d b e w h o m u s t s p e a k t o w h o
b e f o r e t h e y c a n d o w h a t t h e y n e e d to d o a t a l o w e r l e v e l i n t e r m s o f t h e
t w o s tr u c t u r e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: T h a t is w h a t t h e n is b e i n g
a l lu d e d t h e r e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e n a t – th e n f r o m p a r a g r a p h 6 2 t h e n y o u
lis t e d t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s o f b o a r d .
10

G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: Ye s .
ADV

TH A N D I

NORMAN

SC:

And

i ts

–

some

relate

to

the

m is c o m m u n ic a ti o n b e t w e e n t h e d e p a r t m e n ts t h a t is D I R C O a n d t h e
d e f e n c e fo r c e a n d i m p r o v e m e n t o f t h o s e c o m m u n ic a t i o n c h a n n e ls . B u t
I w o u l d li k e y o u t o ju s t t h i s o n e i s s u e th a t I t h i n k w e n e e d t o d e a l w it h .
T h e r e w a s – a p p a r e n tl y t h e r e is a C C T V s y s t e m t h a t is s u p p o s e d t o b e
o p e r a ti o n a l a t a ll t i m e s a t th e W a t e r k l o o f b a s e b u t i t a p p e a r s t h a t
d u r i n g t h a t p e r i o d i t w a s n o t w o r k in g .

W h a t d i d y o u e s t a b l is h a r o u n d

that?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: W e ll i t – w h e n w e f i n a ll y
20

w e n t th e r e – w h e n w e w e n t t h e r e to c h e c k w h a t h a p p e n e d w e w a n t e d t o
s e e t h e fo o t a g e s th e n w e c o u l d n o t s e e t h in g s . A n d a l l w h a t w e c o u l d
s e e th e r e l e v a n t a r e a s w h e r e w e w e r e in t e r e s te d in t h e y w e r e n o t
covered.

A n d t h e n i t t h e n t r a n s p i r e d t h a t th e y w e r e u n d e r a t l e a s t

s e r v ic e – h a d b e e n s e r v ic e d a n d t h e n w e s a y n o i f y o u a r e s e r v ic i n g
y o u n e e d t o b e a b le t o h a v e a b a c k u p s y s t e m .

Page 69 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: S o th e n t h e r e w a s a l a c k
o f a b a c k u p s y s t e m . A n d t h e a r e a s w h ic h a r e c r i t ic a l w e r e n o t c o v e r e d
during that period.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

S o e v e n if th e r e w a s n o t a n y fo r m o f

d o c u m e n t a ti o n a n y a ir c r a f t c o u ld h a v e l a n d e d a n d n o o n e w o u ld h a v e
p ic k e d it u p b e c a u s e th e s y s t e m p e r h a p s w a s n o t f u n c ti o n a l a t t h a t
stage.
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:
10

N o t n e c e s s a r y th e – th is

o n e i s n o t n e c e s s a r i ly s p e a k i n g t o a n a ir c r a f t i t i s s p e a k i n g t o t h e –
o n c e y o u a r e o n t h e g r o u n d a n d t h e m o v e m e n t o f th e p e o p l e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R IC K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: B e c a u s e n o w y o u w a n t to
c h e c k w h e n t h e a ir c r a f t l a n d a n d t h e n t h e r e w a s a m e e te r a n d a
g r e e t e r. B u t th e m e e t e r a n d t h e g r e e te r t h e n t h e r e w a s a r e d c a r p e t
r o l l e d . N o w y o u w a n t t o c h e c k w h e r e w a s t h i s a ir c r a ft ? Wa s t h e – a n d
t h e n w h e r e w a s t h e r e d c a r p e t ? A n d y o u lo o k a t w h e r e it is s u p p o s e d
t o b e a n d t h e n y o u a s k t h e m e e t e r a n d th e g r e e te r a n d t h e n th e m e e t e r
a n d th e g r e e t e r g o e s a n d t h e n t h e y s e e p e o p l e c o m i n g t h e n t h e r e i s n o

20

c o n tr o l T h e m e e t e r a n d g r e e te r m e a n s n o b o d y g r e e t s n o b o d y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:
but for who?

B u t t h e c a r p e t is r o l le d

B u t y o u w a n t t o s e e t h a t in te r ms o f [ in d is ti n c t ] w h a t

a c t u a ll y w a s h a p p e n i n g t h e n t h e r e w e r e p h o t o g r a p h e r s b u t w h o w e r e
t h e y c a r r y i n g c a m e r a s ? Th e n o f c o u r s e th e r e w e r e c a r s m o v i n g a r o u n d

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
b u t y o u w a n t t o s e e th e m . S o if t h e n t h a t f o o t a g e is n o t t h e r e t h e n i t is
a s to r y n o t n e c e s s a r i ly e v i d e n c e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

D e p e n d i n g o n w h o t e l ls

t h e s t o r y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

So those are the kind of

c h a l le n g e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u . A n d th e n y o u a ll o f t h o s e y o u
10

c o n fir m a ll t h o s e r e c o m m e n d a t io n s t h a t y o u h a v e fr o m p a r a g r a p h 6 2
r ig h t u p to S – 6 2 S t h e y a r e a l l t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t h a t t h e b o a r d
m a d e r e la t in g to in d iv i d u a ls a s to w h a t e a c h i n d iv id u a l o u g h t t o h a v e
d o n e o r s h o u l d b e d o n e a b o u t a p a r t ic u l a r in d i v i d u a l , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s t h a n k y o u . A n d y o u s ta n d b y t h o s e

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: Ye s I d o .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d I s e e y o u r s i g n a t u r e is t h e o n e

appearing at page 223 General?
20

G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: T h a t is c o r r e c t
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e d a t e t h a t w a s th e 2 1 s t J u n e 2 0 1 3 ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

S o y o u c o m p l e te d i t ju s t a l m o s t a m o n t h

a ft e r t h e in c i d e n t ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: Ye s .

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s . A n d t h is r e c o r d a s y o u c a n s e e o n

t o p it is m a r k e d ‘ S e c r e t’ d o e s t h i s – it is – i t h a s b e e n k e p t li k e t h a t b y
t h e D e f e n c e Fo r c e u n ti l i t w a s r e q u ir e d b y t h e c o m m i s s io n ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: W e a s a b o a r d w e h a d i t –
a s th e Pr e s id e n t h a n d e d it o v e r to th e o ffi c e o f t h e c h ie f th r o u g h t h e
le g a l o ff ic e r s a n d th e n i t b e c a m e t h e ir r e s p o n s i b i li ty to k e e p it a n d m y
u n d e r s t a n d in g is i t w a s k e p t in t h e h a n d s o f t h e c h i e f i n t e r m s o f h i s
o ffic e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: A n d u n d e r a l o c k a n d k e y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . Is t h e r e a n y t h i n g e ls e t h a t
y o u w is h t o s h a r e w it h t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

P r o b a b ly le t m e s a y

nothing thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s a i d t h a t is i t C o lo n e l A n d e r s o n w a s o c c u p y i n g

t h e s a m e p o s i t io n w i t h s o m e b o d y e ls e , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Who was the other person?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: L i e u t e n a n t C o lo n e l M d lu li .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : M d l u l i?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: M d l u li .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M d l u l i.
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: M d l u li .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M d l u l i.
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: Ye s .

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
CHAIRPERSON:

H o w i s t h a t p o s s i b le f o r t w o p e o p le t o o c c u p y th e

s a m e p o s i t io n ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: It w a s w r o n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

It was not supposed to

happen.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t it h a p p e n e d ?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: B u t i t h a p p e n e d .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Oh.

B u t t h e o n e w h o w a s c o r r e c t ly i n th e p o s i ti o n

was Mdluli?
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: In t e r m s o f
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t …
GENERAL DERRICK

MBUYISELO

M G W E B I:

Chair

in

terms

of

p a p e r w o r k th e o n e w h o w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e i n t h e p o s i ti o n w a s M d lu li .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
GENERAL

DERRICK

MBUYISELO

M G W E B I:

But

in

terms

of

f u n c t i o n in g t h e o n e w h o w a s f u n c ti o n i n g d o i n g t h e j o b w a s A n d e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t d o e s th a t m e a n a t a p r a c tic a l le v e l? D o e s t h is
m e a n M d l u li w a s s u p p o s e d t o j u s t e n j o y t h e p o s i ti o n a n d th e b e n e fi t s
20

a n d A n d e r s o n w o u l d d o th e a c t u a l j o b o r w h a t ? O r b o th w o u l d p e r f o r m
– th e y w o u l d j u s t d iv i d e t h e t a s k s b e t w e e n th e m s e lv e s a n d t h e y w o u ld
b o t h p e r f o r m t h e t a s k s a t t a c h e d t o t h e p o s i ti o n ?
G E N E R A L D E R R IC K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

I t is o n e o f t h o s e

u n f o r t u n a t e i n c i d e n t C h a ir w h ic h w a s n o t s u p p o s e d t o h a v e h a p p e n e d i n
t h e fi r s t p la c e .

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I:

A n d i t c r e a t e d i ts o w n

c h a l le n g e s i n t e r m s o f t h e m o r a l e w i th in th e b a s e a n d o f c o u r s e t h e
f u n c t i o n in g o f t h e b a s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w a s s u b s e q u e n tl y s o r t e d o u t I t a k e i t?
GENERAL

DERRICK

MBUYISELO

M G W E B I:

As

part

of

the

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: T h e fi n d i n g i t a ls o i t w a s
10

f o u n d to b e w r o n g a n d C h ie f o f t h e A ir F o r c e w a s a l s o a t le a s t e x p e c t e d
t o c o r r e c t t h a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e d o n e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Lieutenant General Mgwebi for
c o m i n g t o g iv e e v i d e n c e . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . Yo u a r e e x c u s e d .
G E N E R A L D E R R I C K M B U Y I S E L O M G W E B I: T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u .

C h a ir t h e n e x t w i t n e s s is

G e n e r a l Ms i m a n g I s e e i t i s t e n to o n e w o u l d C h a i r li k e u s t o s t a r t w i th
that witness now?
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w l o n g i s h is s t a t e m e n t ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : H i s – it is n o t l o n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Like how many pages?

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I t is a b o u t – a n d h is a r e a i t is – h e is

g o i n g t o t a lk t o – s o r r y I d i d n o t c o u n t . O n l y f o u r p a g e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Okay no let us…
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Call him.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ta k e h i m a f te r lu n c h .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A lr i g h t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

L e t u s a d j o u r n fo r th e l u n c h b r e a k n o w.

I t is t e n t o

o n e w e w i ll r e s u m e a t t w o .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: We adjourn.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 10.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th is is t h e s t a te m e n t o f G e n e r a l M s i m a n g

20

a n d t h e a n n e x u r e s to - to h is s t a te m e n t .

May he be sworn in

M r C h a ir m a n ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s th a n k y o u .

P l e a s e a d m i n is te r th e o a th o r

a ffir m a t i o n .
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

Page 75 of 120

I

am

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
Zi m p a n d e F a b i a n M s i m a n g .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n s t o t a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

oath?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : N o t a t a ll .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : C e r ta i n ly.
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s o l e m n l y s w e a r t h a t a ll th e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u w il l
g iv e w i ll b e th e t r u t h , t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th in g b u t th e t r u t h i f s o
10

p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e lp m e G o d .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

So help me

God.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

(duly sworn,

states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n .

General you

h a v e b e f o r e y o u – y o u w o u l d h a v e a d o c u m e n t t h a t is m a r k e d o n – i t is
20

a p r e s e n t a ti o n fi l e E X H I B I T F F 1 0 .

A s e x p l a in e d t o y o u e a r l ie r c o u l d

y o u p l e a s e t u r n o v e r to p a g e 1 o f t h a t d o c u m e n t – o f t h a t fi le ?
e n t i tl e d :
“ S A A ir F o r c e S u b m is s i o n t o t h e Z o n d o C o m m i s s io n
o f I n q u ir y S t a t e C a p t u r e . ”
Is t h a t y o u r s u b m i s s i o n ?

Page 76 of 120

I t is

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

Ye s

it

is

m a ’a m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C o u l d y o u p l e a s e t u r n to p a g e 3 o f
t h a t s u b m is s io n ? I s t h a t y o u r s i g n a t u r e t h a t a p p e a r s t h e r e ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : Ye s i t is .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s th a n k y o u ; a n d a r e t h e c o n t e n t s o f

y o u r s u b m i s s i o n tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : Ye s m a ’a m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u ; a n d …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y h a v e t o j u s t r a i s e y o u r v o ic e …
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : O h s o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r b r i n g t h e mi c c l o s e r …
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

I w i ll – I w i ll

…
CHAIRPERSON: Lieutenant General.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : T h a n k y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u .

Thank you.

Thank you

G e n e r a l. Is it c o r r e c t t h a t y o u a r e t h e C h i e f – C h i e f o f t h e A ir F o r c e ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :
20

I

c e r ta in ly

a m . I a m t h e C h i e f o f t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n A i r F o r c e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s ; a n d h o w l o n g h a v e y o u h e l d t h is

p o s i ti o n ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

Since

O c t o b e r, t h e 1 s t 2 0 1 2 .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s ; a n d is i t a ls o c o r r e c t th a t y o u a r e

Page 77 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
p i lo t b y p r o f e s s i o n ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : Ye s I a m .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s ; a n d h o w l o n g h a v e y o u b e e n i n

s e r v ic e w i t h t h e d e fe n c e f o r c e ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

Since

in t e g r a t io n i n 1 9 9 4 b u t p r i o r to t h a t I w a s a M e m b e r o f U m k h o n t o w e
S iz w e , tr a in e d i n R u s s i a .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , th a n k y o u . N o w l e t u s – th e i n c i d e n t
t h a t y o u a r e t a lk i n g is a n d a s w e h a v e h e a r d fr o m t h e e a r li e r w i t n e s s
10

G e n e r a l M g w e b i t h a t w h e n h e s ta r t e d d o i n g t h e in v e s t i g a t io n t h e y h a d
t o s ta r t w i t h th e C h ie f o f t h e A ir F o r c e …
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : Ye s m a ’a m .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

B e c a u s e t h a t i s s o m e th in g th a t fa ll s

s q u a r e ly w i t h i n y o u r r e s p o n s i b il it y. Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : C o r r e c t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s ; a n d t h e n t h e S o u th A f r i c a n s a r e

a s k in g w h e r e t h e C h ie f o f th e A ir F o r c e w a s w h e n a ll o f th is w a s
h a p p e n in g . C o u l d y o u p l e a s e j u s t t e l l th e C h a ir p e r s o n t h e n a s t o h o w –
what do you know about the incident, how you got to know about it and
20

– and what did you do?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

Thank

you

v e r y m u c h C h a ir. A s i t is s t a te d i n m y s t a te m e n t I w a s a p p r o a c h e d b y
t h e a d v i s o r t o t h e M i n is te r o f D e f e n c e w i t h r e g a r d s t o a p o s s i b l e a r r iv a l
o f t h e I n d i a n d e le g a ti o n .

T h i s t o o k p la c e d u r i n g t h e t i m e w h e n t h e

S o u th A fr ic a n N a t i o n a l D e fe n c e Fo r c e w a s o n h i g h a l e r t .

Page 78 of 120

We had a

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
s i tu a ti o n i n th e C e n tr a l A f r ic a n R e p u b li c w h e r e b y o n 2 2 M a r c h it w a s
around that period where we lost 13 of our members.
I t w a s a t t h i s t i m e w h e n w e h a d t o a tt a c h th e o ff ic e r
c o m m a n d in g o f th e F – t h e o ff ic e r c o m m a n d in g o f th e A ir F o r c e
C o m m a n d P o s t B r ig a d i e r G e n e r a l L o m b a r d t o o u r j o i n t o p e r a t io n s t o
a s s is t w i th th is o p e r a t i o n . A t th e s a m e t i m e w e h a d a ls o a n i n c i d e n t o r
a n a c c i d e n t in t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n A ir F o r c e w h e r e b y w e h a d l o s t a
h e li c o p t e r.
S o th e r e w e r e a ll th o s e t h in g s th a t w e r e t a k in g p l a c e .
10

I

w o u ld a ls o l ik e t o s t a t e t h a t t h e la n d i n g o f t h e a ir c r a f t th e o n e t h a t w e
a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t h a p p e n e d w i t h in t h e s i x m o n th s o f m y h a v i n g ta k e n
o ffic e . I h a d a l s o a t a t i m e d i d in d ic a t e t o m y C o m m a n d e r t h e C h ie f o f
t h e S o u t h A f r i c a n N a ti o n a l D e fe n c e F o r c e G e n e r a l S h o k e i n w r i ti n g t h a t
I h a d s e r io u s c o n c e r n s w i t h r e g a r d s t o t h e c o m m a n d a n d c o n tr o l o f t h e
S o u th A f r ic a n Ai r Fo r c e – t h e s tr u c t u r e – w i t h s tr u c t u r a l p r o b l e ms a n d
of course those were being addressed.
T h e is s u e s a r o u n d t h e l a n d i n g o f t h e a ir c r a f t a n d i n my
s t a te m e n t I h a v e s t a te d t h a t a ft e r I h a d i n d ic a t e d th a t – to th e – to th e
a d v is o r – t o t h e M in is t e r o f D e fe n c e t h a t - I w o u l d l ik e t o q u o t e w h a t I

20

had said.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , o k a y t h a n k y o u .

O h , s o r r y.

Maybe

ju s t le t u s g o b a c k .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: The advisor approached you what did the
a d v is o r w a n t fr o m y o u ?

Page 79 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

T h e a d v is o r

…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n – y o u c a n h a v e a l o o k a t th e s t a te m e n t …
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r p u r p o s e s o f r e fr e s h i n g y o u r m e m o r y.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

Thank

you

very much.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :
10

In

s t a te m e n t I s ta t e th a t :
“During

th e

la t t e r

half

of

my

March 2013

the

p o li t ic a l a d v is o r o f t h e M i n i s t e r o f D e f e n c e a n d
M il i ta r y Ve te r a n s a p p r o a c h e d th e C h i e f o f t h e S o u t h
A fr ic a n A ir F o r c e … ”
W h i c h is m y s e l f .
“…to

determine

the

r e g u l a ti o n s

governing

the

la n d i n g a n d t a k i n g o ff c iv i li a n a ir c r a f t a t A ir F o r c e
B a s e Wa t e r k l o o f . ”
I s t a t e i n m y s ta t e m e n t t h a t:
20

“ T h e C h i e f o f th e S o u th A fr ic a n A ir Fo r c e i n fo r m e d
t h e p o l i tic a l a d v is o r i t w o u ld b e ir r e g u l a r f o r a n
a ir c r a f t c a r r y in g I n d i a n w e d d i n g g u e s t s t o la n d a t
the base.

T h e C h i e f o f t h e A ir F o r c e a d v is e d t h e

p o li t ic a l a d v is o r th a t t h e m a t t e r s h o u l d n o t b e
e n t e r t a i n e d a n y f u r t h e r. ”

Page 80 of 120

my

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
A n d f r o m m y p o i n t o f v ie w I th o u g h t th a t w a s th e e n d o f i t.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o y o u ju s t g iv e a n a n s w e r a n d y o u k n e w
that no one else …
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

He sought –

he sought advice …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M P N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

And we gave

h i m t h e a d v ic e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

Ye s ; a n d o r d i n a r i ly w h e n t h e n a p o l it ic a l

a d v is o r s e e k s a d v ic e d o y o u s h a r e w h a t y o u h a d c o m m u n ic a te d w i t h
t h a t p o l it ic a l a d v is o r w i t h – I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r i t w o u l d b e th e
C o m m a n d e r s o r t h e C o m m a n d e r s w h o a r e b e l o w y o u o r i s i t s o m e th i n g
t h a t y o u w o u l d k e e p t o y o u r s e l f b e c a u s e i n a n y e v e n t i t i s y o u r a d v ic e
t h a t w a s b e i n g s o l ic i t e d ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :
fir s t t i m e t h a t s u c h a t h i n g h a d h a p p e n e d .
c a m e t o s e e k m y a d v ic e .

I t w a s th e

T h a t t h e p o li t ic a l a d v is o r

I t h i n k i t w a s d u e t o t h e fa c t th a t h e to o

w a n t e d t o – t o b e a d v is e d a s t o w h e th e r it f e ll w it h in t h e r e g u l a t i o n s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
20

L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

I thought I

w a s d u ty b o u n d to i n f o r m h i m a n d I t h in k t h a t w a s fr o m m y p o i n t o f v i e w
t h a t w a s – w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e e n d o f o u r d is c u s s i o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : D i s c u s s io n .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d t h e n w h y d i d y o u fe e l t h a t i t w o u ld

Page 81 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
h a v e b e e n ir r e g u la r ?

What - what are the factors that informed that

a d v ic e ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

We

have

p r o t o c o ls w i t h i n t h e S o u t h A fr i c a n N a t io n a l D e f e n c e F o r c e …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

And

e s p e c i a l ly i n t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n A ir Fo r c e . W e h a v e a ls o w h a t w e w o u ld
c a l l S O P s w h ic h d e te r m in e th e ty p e o f a ir c r a f t , t y p e o f d e l e g a ti o n s th a t
w o u ld b e a ll o w e d t o l a n d a t A ir F o r c e B a s e W a t e r k lo o f a n d fo r t h e m e r e
10

f a c t th a t i t s p o k e a b o u t a w e d d i n g p a r t y. T h a t i n i ts e lf d id n o t c o m p ly
w i t h t h e – w i t h th e r e g u la t io n s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M a y b e I s h o u ld j u s t ta k e y o u to t h e
p r o t o c o ls th a t y o u h a v e a t t a c h e d to y o u r s t a te m e n t .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : Ye s m a ’a m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I f I m a y t a k e y o u – r e f e r y o u to a d iv id e r
m a r k e d t w o M r C h a ir m a n .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : P a r d o n t o ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e r e is a d iv id e r …
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : Ye s m a ’a m .

20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : M a r k e d n u m b e r tw o .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

Marked

number two?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A t n u m b e r fiv e – p a g e fi v e t h e r e i s
w h a t i s c a ll e d :
“ T h e S t a n d a r d O p e r a t i n g P r o c e d u r e s I s s u in g o f

Page 82 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
O v e r f li g h t

and

L a n d in g

A u th o r i ti e s

fo r

Vis i ti n g

A ir c r a f t . ”
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : Ye s m a ’a m .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

C o u ld y o u j u s t h ig h li g h t th o s e

f a c to r s th a t w h e r e o n e w a n t s to l a n d a s a w e d d i n g p a r ty w h i c h w o u l d
c o n fli c t w i th w h a t y o u h a v e g o t h e r e i n th is S O P ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

O k a y.

Would

y o u m in d i f I j u s t ta lk a b o u t i t i n g e n e r a l?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

Once

a

f o r e i g n s t a te r e q u e s ts to la n d a t W a te r k lo o f w e w o u l d f ir s t h a v e t o
d e t e r m i n e w h e th e r i t w a s m i li t a r y, n o n - m il i ta r y o r o t h e r.

If it was

m il i ta r y it w il l th e n fo ll o w th e – I w o u ld – if i t w a s m il i ta r y i t w il l th e n
c o m e fr o m t h e c o u n tr y c o n c e r n e d t o th e D e fe n c e F o r e i g n A ff a ir s t o th e
C o m m a n d P o s t a n d t o th e B a s e C o m m a n d P o s t .
I n t h is c a s e i t w a s a n o n - m il it a r y a n d w h ic h w e c a ll – w h ic h i s
a n o n - m ili t a r y.

The request came through DIRCO because it was

d i p l o m a t ic u n d e r R S A 0 5 . D i p lo m a t ic t o D I R C O a n d t h e n fr o m D I R C O i t
w o u ld h a v e t h e n g o n e t o – s h o u l d h a v e g o n e t o D e fe n c e F o r e i g n A ff a i r s
20

t h a t is w i t h i n t h e D O D a n d t h e n fr o m D I R C O i t w o u l d h a v e t h e n g o n e t o
t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t a n d t h e n w i t h i n – a n d t h e n fr o m t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t I t h i n k i t w ill g o t o H o m e A ff a i r s a n d a ls o t o
t h e C i v i l Av ia t io n A u th o r it y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : P l e a s e j u s t c la r i fy – c la r i fy t h e “ i t ” t h r o u g h o u t t h is ? I t
w o u ld c o m e fr o m D I R C O t o Fo r e i g n A ff a i r s w i t h i n D O D

Page 83 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

Oh

the

r e q u e s t , th e r e q u e s t s o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n to Tr a n s p o r t .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

The request,

t h e r e q u e s t , th e r e q u e s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , s o – s o D I R C O t h e n t o t h e F o r e ig n A ff a ir s S e c ti o n
o f D O D a n d th e n f r o m t h e r e t o D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

Ye s .

They

a ls o h a v e – t h e y h a v e li n k s w i th t h e o th e r – o t h e r G o v e r n m e n t
10

d e p a r t m e n ts ’ y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W h a t I a m a s k i n g is w h e t h e r t h e Tr a n s p o r t o n e
t h a t w o u l d g o t o Tr a n s p o r t w o u ld c o m e d ir e c tl y fr o m D I R C O o r i t w o u l d
b e a f te r g o i n g v i a …
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

No, no.

It

w o u ld b e d ir e c tly – d ir e c tl y f r o m D I R C O .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r e ig n A ff a ir s S e c ti o n o f th e D O D ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

The

way I

understand …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

D i r e c t ly

to

D IR C O .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, n o t th a t i s f in e .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :
t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a n s p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.

Page 84 of 120

D ir e c t ly to -

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : N o w …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is is s t ill ju s t t h e r e q u e s t ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

T h i s is j u s t

t h e r e q u e s t y e s . N o w p l e a s e u n d e r s t a n d t h is …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :
up front that there were no checks and balances.
p r o b le m t h a t w e a r e f a c e d w i t h h e r e .
10

I must say it

Th a t is n o w th e

It is due to the nature of the –

t h e r e q u e s t in g e n e r a l – 0 5 s – b e c a u s e i t is a d i p l o m a ti c r e q u e s t .

It

h a s i ts o w n p r o t o c o ls .
I t in v o lv e s o t h e r G o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t s a n d i n m o s t
in c i d e n c e s w h e n th e r e i s t h a t – w h e n i t is i n i t ia t e d f r o m t h e r e q u e s ti n g
c o u n tr y o r s t a te a t l e v e l fo u r – t h e t e c h n ic a l l e v e l – t h e o ff ic i a ls a r e
a lr e a d y r u n n i n g a r o u n d tr y in g to m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e y h a v e g o t s y s t e m s
in p l a c e t o a c c o m m o d a te t h e – t h e g u e s ts a n d t h i s h a s b e c o m e t h e
p r a c ti c e .

So you have the – the SOPs and then you have got also

p r a c ti c e . N o w c a n I t a k e … ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : S O P S b e in g ?
20

L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

Standard

O p e r a t in g P r o c e d u r e s . I a m s o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :
O p e r a t in g P r o c e d u r e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .

Page 85 of 120

Standard

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

Ye s . I w o u l d

lik e u s t o m a y b e to m a y b e h a v e a – t o s h o w t h e …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : t h e r e is a s l id e ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

Ye s

that

s li d e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : T h e h i e r a r c h y
o f p o l ic i e s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

A lr i g h t , t h a n k y o u .

S o r r y M r C h a ir m a n

c o u l d y o u – o h it is u p t h e r e . O h , t h a n k y o u . O k a y.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

Ye s .

As we

c a n s e e w e h a v e g o t a h i e r a r c h y o f p o l ic ie s w h ic h a r e a t v a r i o u s l e v e l s .
Ty p i c a ll y t h e C h i e f o f t h e A ir F o r c e w o u l d b e a t le v e l tw o .

Level two

w h ic h s t a t e s :
“ S e r v i c e s a n d D iv i s i o n s . ”
A t t h i s l e v e l w e – I a m t a lk in g a b o u t n o w s e r v ic e s i n t h e S o u th A f r ic a n
N a t io n a l D e fe n c e F o r c e w e h a v e g o t f o u r S e r v ic e C h i e f s . T h a t i s t h e
C h i e f o f t h e A r my, C h i e f o f t h e A ir F o r c e , C h i e f o f t h e N a v y a n d C h i e f o f
t h e M il i ta r y H e a l t h S e r v i c e c a ll e d t h e S u r g e o n G e n e r a l a n d th e n w e
20

h a v e g o t e ig h t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I a m tr y i n g t o f o ll o w.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

Level

two,

le v e l t w o , l e v e l t w o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e v e l t w o is – is - w h a t p o s i t io n w o u ld b e t h e r e ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

Page 86 of 120

That

is

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
Lieutenant General.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, r i g h t a n d l e v e l o n e .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

Level

one

t h a t i s n o w my b o s s .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e C h ie f o f t h e – th e Ar m y ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

The Chief of

t h e S o u th A fr ic a n N a ti o n a l D e f e n c e F o r c e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y, o k a y.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

C h i e f o f th e

D e f e n c e Fo r c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

Ye s .

Now at

h is le v e l w h ic h is n o w a s y o u c a n s e e i t i s c o p i e d p o l ic y m a t t e r s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : T h a t is w h e r e
20

w e – w e d e a l w i th t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f D e f e n c e i n s tr u c t io n s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : Yo u t h e n d e a l
w i t h t h e j o i n t D e f e n c e P u b lic a ti o n s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

Page 87 of 120

Because

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
r e m e m b e r t h a t th is a r m s o f s e r v ic e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : A n d t h is – th e
– t h e d iv is i o n s a n d th e n t h e r e is a j o i n t c o m m a n d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :
c o u r s e – t h e n t h a t – th e d ir e c ti v e s .

S o th e n o f

Then there is the Department of

D e f e n c e S tr a te g y a n d t h e n th e M il i ta r y S tr a te g y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

N o w t h i s is

n o w w h ic h c o m e s fr o m t h e t o p w h ic h n o w i n f o r m s t h e n e x t l e v e ls
p o li c i e s .

S o a t m y le v e l w h a t w e g e n e r a te w h i c h is n o w th e s e r v ic e

o p e r a ti o n a l le v e l w h ic h l o o k s a t t h e s tr a te g i c a n d o p e r a ti o n a l le v e l
t h e r e a r e in s tr u c ti o n s , th e d o c tr i n e s , t h e m a n u a ls , t h e s u b – s tr a t e g i e s ,
t h e d iv is i o n a l s u p p o r t i n g s tr a t e g i e s a n d t h e n t h e l e v e l b e l o w u s w h ic h
w e c a ll t h e in t e r m e d i a t e s tr u c tu r e s .
T h i s i s n o w w h e r e t h e A ir F o r c e C o m m a n d P o s t r e s i d e s , o k a y.
T h a t i s w h e r e t h e A ir Fo r c e C o m m a n d P o s t r e s i d e s .

T h a t is a t l e v e l

three.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is l e v e l ? T h r e e ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : L e v e l th r e e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : O k a y. T h a t is
w h e r e th e y h a v e t h e in s t r u c t i o n s , t h e m a n u a ls , f u n c ti o n a l c u r r ic u l a
b e c a u s e s o m e o f t h e s e a r e d ir e c t o r a t e s w h ic h h a v e g o t t h e ir o w n

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
tr a i n i n g e n ti t ie s w i th in w h ic h i s l ik e t h e c o m b a t li n e , t h e h e lic o p te r li n e ,
t h e tr a n s p o r t li n e , c o m m a n d a n d c o n tr o l l in e a n d s o f o r t h .
N o w – a n d t h e n w e h a v e g o t l e v e l fo u r w h ic h is n o w a t t h e
t e c h n ic a l l e v e l w h ic h is b a s is , u n i ts , c e n t r e s a n d d e p o t s . N o w a t t h is
le v e l t h is i s n o w w h e r e y o u – w h e r e th e y g e n e r a t e o r d e r s , t e c h n i c a l
p u b lic a ti o n s , t h e S t a n d a r d O p e r a t in g Pr o c e d u r e s , c u r r ic u l a ’s b e c a u s e
t h e y a ls o h a v e tr a i n in g r e s p o n s i b il it i e s a n d o f c o u r s e t h e b a s e
s tr a t e g ie s .
N o w s e e i n g t h a t A ir F o r c e C o m m a n d P o s t is a u n i t i t a ls o
10

g e n e r a te s i ts o w n S t a n d a r d O p e r a ti n g P r o c e d u r e s .

N o w w i th t h e

p r o b le m t h a t w e a r e f a c e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e y o u …
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

G o f u r th e r j u s t s o t h a t I c a n u n d e r s t a n d t h e – t h e

hierarchy there.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d t h e – w o u ld le v e l o n e b e e q u iv a l e n t in t e r m s o f
p u b lic s e r v i c e r a n k in g s t o a D G o r – o r i t i s in c o m p a r a b l e ? W e l l m a y b e
in t e r m s o f r e s p o n s i b il i ty.
20

L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

A

M i li t a r y

A

M i li t a r y

G e n e r a l is a M il it a r y G e n e r a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :
G e n e r a l is a M il it a r y G e n e r a l . T h e r e i s n o e q u iv a l e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

I – I suspected you would say that; but in terms of

Page 89 of 120

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
r e s p o n s i b i li ty it w o u l d b e th e s a m e r e s p o n s ib il i ty …
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : D G .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t a D G h a s ? O k a y.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : ( I n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t i s fi n e ; a n d th e n le v e l t w o D e p u ty D G a n d –
a n d m a y b e l e v e l t h r e e w o u ld b e C h i e f D ir e c t o r ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : T h a t is it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t i s f in e . T h a n k y o u . Ye s .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :
10

C h a ir p e r s o n ,

o k a y. T h e n fu r t h e r m o r e i s t h a t w h e n y o u l o o k a t t h is h i e r a r c h y y o u fi n d
t h a t th e – m o s t o f t h e a c t iv i t ie s a r e ta k i n g p l a c e u n d e r t h e g u i d e o f t h e
S O P s . I a m s a y i n g t h i s b e c a u s e t h e r e is n o o v e r a r c i n g i n s tr u m e n t t h a t
p u ll s t o g e t h e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ev e r y t h in g .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : E v e r y t h i n g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

I n c l u d in g

o th e r G o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : I t is a g a p …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

And

it

is

u n f o r t u n a t e t h a t a t t h e e n d o f th e d a y i t i s th o s e p e r s o n s – p e o p le a t
le v e l f o u r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

Who

are

exposed.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : I t h i n k t h a t is
t h e fi n d i n g a ls o i n t h e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

In the Board

o f I n q u ir y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

It

is

s o m e t h i n g t h a t w e h a v e a ls o s in c e – a r e r e c t if y i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

Nor for me

that is the crux of the problem. Nothing else but just that.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

So

th is

in c i d e n t f o r m e i s a s y m p t o m o f a n a b s e n c e o f a c o o r d i n a t e d
in t e r d e p a r t m e n t a l a r r a n g e m e n t t o c o o r d in a t e a n d c o h e r e n t – c o h e r e n tl y
20

d e a l w i th t h e R S A 0 5 w h ic h i s n o w d i p l o m a ti c r e q u e s ts a n d t h i s i s w h a t
t h e i n t e r i m a i r f o r c e i n s tr u c ti o n w h i c h i s a r e g i m e t h a t w e a r e c u r r e n tl y
w o r k i n g u n d e r s e e k s t o a d d r e s s i n th e i n t e r i m b e c a u s e t h e r e is a lr e a d y
w i t h i n t h e s y s t e m a d e p a r t m e n t a l i n s tr u c t i o n t h a t i s b e i n g f o r m a lis e d –
fi n a l is e d - le t m e p u t i t t h a t w a y – u n d e r t h e s i g n a t u r e o f l e v e l o n e a n d
a ls o l e v e l z e r o .

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
Fr o m t h e M in is t e r t o th e – to t h e C h ie f D e f e n c e a n d th e
S e c r e t a r y o f D e fe n c e b u t a g a i n i t w il l a l s o c r e a t e s o m e c h a ll e n g e s t h is
is w h y w e a r e a ls o e n g a g in g w it h o t h e r G o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t s to
e n s u r e t h a t t h e r e i s a n o v e r a r c i n g in s tr u m e n t t h a t w il l d e a l w i t h s u c h
is s u e s t o p r o t e c t l e v e l f o u r, l e v e l t h r e e , l e v e l t w o .

S o t h a t t h e e n tr y

p o i n t f o r a n y o f th e s e r e q u e s ts m u s t c o m e a t t h e a p p r o p r ia t e l e v e l.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l i t - i t m a y b e t h a t w h a t I w a n t to a s k y o u i s

s o m e t h i n g t h a t w e s h o u l d d e a l w i t h la t e r b u t l e t m e a s k – a s k y o u i t
m a y b e th a t t h e s y s te m s th a t w e r e i n p l a c e w e r e n o t t h e b e s t …
10

L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

W e r e n o t th e

b e s t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a t c o u l d b e p u t i n p la c e b u t is t h e p o s i ti o n n o t t h i s
t h a t w h e n o n e l o o k s a t w h a t a p p e a r s t o h a v e u n f o ld e d h e r e o n e is
d e a li n g w it h a s i t u a t io n w h e r e n o b o d y c a n s a y I d i d n o t k n o w th a t i t w a s
n o t r i g h t t o a l lo w t h e l a n d i n g o f t h i s a ir c r a ft .

Is t h e p o s i ti o n n o t t h a t

w h e n a ll is s a i d a n d d o n e n o b o d y c a n s a y I d i d n o t k n o w t h a t it w a s
w r o n g b e c a u s e i f p a r t ic u l a r l y th e k e y p e o p l e k n e w t h a t t h i s w a s n o t
r ig h t a n d k n e w th a t i t w a s n o t i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h o n e , t h e o p e r a t i n g
p r o c e d u r e s a n d p o li c i e s a n d – a n d t w o , t h e p r a c tic e s .
20

T h e n t h e y s h o u l d h a v e s a i d n o a n d t h e n t h e w h o l e q u e s ti o n is
why they did not say no or maybe some of them. So me might have said
n o u p to a c e r t a i n p o in t a n d t h e n g a v e i n . S o t h e r e f o r e i f o n e i s l o o k i n g
a t i t – i t m a y b e t h a t w e s h o u ld n o t p u t a lo t o f e m p h a s i s o n a n y
in a d e q u a c i e s t h a t m i g h t h a v e b e e n th e r e i n th e s y s t e m s b e c a u s e
a n y b o d y w h o w a n t e d t o d o t h e r i g h t th i n g k n e w w h a t t o d o a n d i f t h e y

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
d i d w h a t – i f t h e y d i d th e r i g h t t h i n g a n d h a d t h e c o u r a g e to d o t h e r i g h t
t h i n g t h i s w o u l d n o t h a v e h a p p e n e d . W h a t d o y o u s a y to t h a t ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

S i r i n th is

s p a c e a r r a n g e m e n ts a r e h i n g e d o n tr u s t a n d in t e g r i ty. I n i t ia ll y w h e n I
tr i e d t o c a te g o r is e th e ty p e o f r e q u e s t t h a t c a m e i n w h e n w e s p o k e
a b o u t t h e n o n - m il i ta r y w h ic h 0 5 is o n e o f th e m t h e e n v ir o n m e n t fr o m
w h e r e t h a t i n fo r m a t i o n is a c t iv a te d t h e r i g h t i n f o r m a t i o n h a s t o c o m e
t h r o u g h . O t h e r w is e i t c o n t a m i n a t e s t h e w h o l e p r o c e s s .
T h i s is w h y I s a i d th e r e a r e n o c h e c k s a n d b a la n c e s f r o m t h e
10

p o i n t w h e r e t h a t in f o r m a t io n c o m e s i n to th e D e fe n c e Fo r c e . W e a r e n o t
e v e n s u r e a s to w h e n i t a ls o g o e s t o t h e o t h e r e n v ir o n m e n ts a s t o
w h e t h e r t h e r e a r e th o s e c h e c k s a n d b a l a n c e s . H e n c e th e n e c e s s i t y f o r
u s t o h a v e t h is o v e r a r c i n g i n s tr u m e n t w h ic h w il l d e a l w i th a ll t h e s e
is s u e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w h a t d o y o u s a y t o t h e p r o p o s i t io n t h a t o n th e

f a c ts a s th e y s e e m t o h a v e e m e r g e d i n th e r e p o r t o f t h e D ir e c to r s
G e n e r a l th e J u s t ic e C l u s t e r I n v e s ti g a ti o n Te a m t h a t a t l e a s t i n s o fa r a s
w e s p e a k a b o u t th e a c t u a l l a n d i n g o f t h e a ir c r a f t t h e r e m a y b e o t h e r
is s u e s b u t th a t is t h e m a i n is s u e .
I n s o f a r a s t h a t o n e is c o n c e r n e d a ll t h e k e y p e o p l e w h o h a d a

20

r o l e to p l a y b e f o r e y o u r – t h e a u t h o r i s a t i o n c o u l d b e g i v e n k n e w t h a t
t h is w a s n o t i n o r d e r. D o – d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t – th a t d o e s e m e r g e o r i s
y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o r a n a ly s is d i ff e r e n t ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :
fi n d i n g s .

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I g o b y th e

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

I g o b y th e

fi n d i n g s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

B u t a g a in w e

a ls o h a v e t o p u t e v e r y th i n g in t o c o n t e x t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

T h is r e q u e s t

should not have gone through …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

After we had

said no.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : P e r i o d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ex a c t ly, e x a c tly.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

That it went

t h r o u g h a t a d i ff e r e n t l e v e l w e l l t h a t is n o w t h e r e a s o n w h y w e h a v e g o t
t h is B o a r d o f I n q u i r y a n d I w o u l d lik e to r e p e a t w e w o r k o n t r u s t a n d
in t e g r i ty, th a n k y o u .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll i t i s – i t i s a g o o d th in g t o w o r k o n tr u s t a n d

in t e g r i ty b u t t h e r e a s o n w h y i t is n e c e s s a r y t o h a v e c h e c k s a n d
balances …
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is p r e c is e l y b e c a u s e …
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : T h a t is it .

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CHAIRPERSON:

S o m e t i m e s i t is n o t e n o u g h t o w o r k o n tr u s t a n d

in t e g r i ty. T h a t p a r t I u n d e r s t a n d b u t le t ’s g o b a c k t o th e r e q u e s t . A n o
w a s g iv e n ; y o u h a v e j u s t s a i d t h e n i t w e n t ; t h e r e q u e s t w e n t s o m e w h e r e
e ls e . Is t h e r e a n y d o u b t i n y o u r m in d t h a t w h e r e v e r i t w e n t t h e y k n e w
t h a t th is w a s n o t i n o r d e r ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll , y o u a r e a le a d e r n o w in th e D e f e n c e F o r c e . Yo u
h a v e g o t t o c o m e o u t c le a r ly.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : A s a C h i e f o f t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n A ir
10

F o r c e , I s a i d n o a n d o n c e w e s a i d n o I w o u l d n ’ t lik e t o s e c o n d - g u e s s a s
t o w h a t in f o r m e d th e m t o b e c r e a ti v e a n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e ? Yo u a r e a ls o s a y in g t h e y w e r e c r e a t iv e .
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG: In the lack.
CHAIRPERSON:

No, you see, you see I guess we must look at the

D e f e n c e Fo r c e a s w e l l a s D e r c o a s p a r t o f s o c ie t y.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : Tr u e .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d p a r t o f t h e p r o b l e m i n o u r s o c ie t y is th a t i t

a p p e a r s w e d o n ’ t h a v e e n o u g h n u m b e r s o f p e o p l e w h o s t a n d fi r m f o r
w h a t is r i g h t i n th e f a c e o f p r e s s u r e a n d e n t ic e m e n ts , c o r r u p ti o n a n d
20

ju s t s t a n d f ir m a n d s a y i t i s n o t r ig h t . S o w e k n o w t h a t s o m e o f t h e
p e o p l e , y o u k n o w a p p e a r e d t o h a v e s a id n o .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

But later on either they gave in to the pressure or I

d o n ’t k n o w i f t h e y g o t p e r s u a d e d a n d w e k n o w th a t t h e r e a r e
s t a te m e n ts t h a t a p p e a r t o h a v e b e e n m a d e t o w h ic h a p p e a r t o h a v e

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b e e n i n t e n d e d t o p u t p r e s s u r e o n t h e m o n e w a y o r a n o t h e r. S o b u t
k n o w i n g w h a t , k n o w i n g th e r e q u e s t t h a t w a s m a d e a n d y o u s a i d n o , i t
s h o u l d n o t b e e n t e r t a i n e d , is t h e r e a n y r e a s o n y o u k n o w o f w h y p e o p l e
w h o w e r e r e q u ir e d t o d e a l w i th th is r e q u e s t i n t h e A i r F o r c e a t d i ffe r e n t
le v e l u p t o th e l e v e l w h e r e i t w a s a u th o r i z e d , d o y o u k n o w o f a n y
r e a s o n w h y t h e y w o u l d n ’ t h a v e c l e a r l y s e e n t h a t t h is w a s n o t a n o r d e r
a n d i t s h o u l d n o t b e a l lo w e d ? A n d t o b e f a ir t o y o u , y o u a r e fr e e t o s e e
if y o u d o n ’ t k n o w ; t o s a y if y o u h a v e n ’ t lo o k e d a t t h e fa c ts s u ff ic i e n tly
in r e g a r d t o w h a t h a p p e n e d a t th e d i ff e r e n t s t a g e s a b o u t k n o w i n g w h a t
10

k n o w l e d g e a n d e x p e c t a ti o n t h e A ir F o r c e h a s o f p e o p l e a t c e r t a i n l e v e ls
w h o a r e a u t h o r iz e d t o d e a l w i t h s o m e t h i n g lik e t h i s . S o m y q u e s t i o n is ,
c a n t h e r e b e a n y d o u b t th a t a n y b o d y w o u ld h a v e k n o w n t h a t th is
r e q u e s t w a s n o t c o r r e c t f o r p u r p o s e s o f a u th o r iz i n g th e l a n d i n g o f th is
ty p e o f a ir c r a f t o r a n a ir c r a f t th a t w a s c o m i n g w i t h a w o r d i n g p a r ty ?
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG:

S ir, fr o m t h e w o r d g o t h i s

s h o u l d n ’ t h a v e b e e n a p p r o v e d a t a n y l e v e l . I th i n k th a t ’s w h a t a ls o
c o m e s o u t fr o m t h e b o a r d o f i n q u ir y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG:
20

T h a t d e c is i o n w a s t a k e n I t h in k

t h a t ’s w h y s p e c i fi c s t e p s w e r e t a k e n w i t h i n th e D e fe n c e F o r c e . I ’d l ik e
t o r e p e a t o n c e a g a i n t h e f in d in g s o f t h e b o a r d o f i n q u ir i e s b o th .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a r e i n o r d e r ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : A r e i n o r d e r, y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.

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CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y m a y b e I c a n j u s t a s k t h is q u e s t io n . W e r e y o u

s h o c k e d w h e n y o u h e a r d t h a t t h e a ir c r a f t h a d b e e n a l lo w e d t o l a n d ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : I t h i n k t h a t ’s w h y I h a v e b e c o m e
bold.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t. Yo u w e r e s h o c k e d ?
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG:

It took us, yes. It took us…

( in d is ti n c t) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

T h a n k y o u . J u s t a s a fo ll o w - u p t o t h a t

s h o c k th a t y o u h a d . A t u n d e r w h a t c ir c u m s t a n c e s d o e s t h e C h i e f o f th e
A ir F o r c e g e t i n v o l v e d w h e n a f o r e i g n a ir c r a f t l a n d s in t o t h e c o u n tr y o r
a t le a s t a t t h e Wa t e r k l o o f B a s e ? A r e t h e r e in s ta n c e s w h e r e y o u g e t
in v o lv e d a n d w h a t a r e t h o s e i n s t a n c e s ?
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG:

Ye s , t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n A ir Fo r c e

t h r o u g h i ts v a r i o u s s tr u c t u r e s g e ts in f o r m e d . Th e o ffic e r c o m m a n d in g o f
t h e u n i t , I ’ m n o w t a l k i n g a b o u t th e A ir Fo r c e c o m m a n d p o s t w o u l d t h e n
in f o r m t h e r e le v a n t e n t i ti e s b u t i n t h i s c a s e b e c a u s e o f t h e f o ll o w i n g
t h a t o ffi c e r c o m m a n d i n g o f t h e u n i t w a s n o t a v a il a b l e . W e w e r e d e a l i n g
w i t h a c r i s is . T h e S E N C O N o ff ic e r L i e u te n a n t C o lo n e l Va n Zy l w a s n e w.
20

H e w a s j u s t b r o u g h t i n a n d t h e s e w e r e a ll t h i n g s th a t w o u l d s h o u ld h a v e
b e e n in p l a c e . U n f o r t u n a t e ly, a t t h a t ti m e it j u s t s o h a p p e n e d th a t t h i s
t h i n g c a m e a t th e ti m e w h e n w e w e r e m o s t v u l n e r a b le .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . N o , m y q u e s ti o n r e a l ly r e l a te s t o a s
b e c a u s e y o u a r e th e C h i e f o f th e Ai r F o r c e .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : Ye s .

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I ju s t w a n t t o k n o w o r d in a r ily d o y o u g e t
in v o lv e d i n th e , i n t h e s e a p p r o v a ls a t w h a te v e r le v e l , o f f o r e i g n
a ir c r a f t s o r y o u d o n ’ t g e t i n v o lv e d a t a ll … ( in t e r v e n t i o n ) .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : M a ’ a m , t h is is w h y I a m s a y i n g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG:

T h i s p r o c e d u r e is d e s ig n e d to

m a n a g e a c t iv i t ie s a t l e v e l f o u r a n d t h r e e , n o t a t m y l e v e l . H e n c e , t h e
n e e d fo r u s f ir s t ly w i t h i n t h e A ir F o r c e t o o v e r h a u l o u r s y s t e ms a t t h a t
ti m e a n d t o e n s u r e t h a t w e h a v e a n o v e r a r c h i n g i n s tr u m e n t t h a t a ls o
10

t a lk s t o th e o t h e r g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I g u e s s t h a t a n s w e r m e a n s y o u d o n ’ t n o r m a l ly g e t

in v o lv e d ? B e c a u s e t h a t’s t h e q u e s ti o n .
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG: Then then.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, at that stage.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : A t t h a t s ta g e , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d id n o t g e t i n v o lv e d ?
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG: No, no.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u g e t in v o lv e d n o w ?
20

L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : O h y e s , c e r ta i n ly.
CHAIRPERSON: Because of what happened?
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG: No, no.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : I t ’s b e c a u s e i t ’s t h e r i g h t t h i n g t o
do.

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t a r i s i n g f r o m t h a t in c i d e n t w h ic h m a y h a v e

opened your?
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG:

Remember we spoke about there

w e r e d e f ic ie n c i e s w i th i n t h e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : T h e s y s t e m a t th a t ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG:

B e c a u s e t r u ly s p e a k in g w e w e r e

n o t r e a l ly c o n f ig u r e d t o d o w h a t w e w e r e d o i n g a t th a t ti m e .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : Yo u u n d e r s t a n d ? S o , y e s w e w e r e
d o i n g t h is b u t.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : W e w e r e n o t p r o p e r ly c o n fi g u r e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l , l e t m e a s k y o u a b o u t t h e , y o u r f e e l in g o r

r e a c ti o n t o t h e in c i d e n t . W h e n M r R a m a tl o d i g a v e e v i d e n c e h e r e , t h e
f o r m e r M i n i s t e r o f M i n e r a l R e s o u r c e s , h e g a v e h is d e s c r ip t i o n o f h o w
20

h e f e l t a b o u t h is r e a c t io n t o t h e i n c i d e n t . I d o n ’ t w a n t t o p u t w o r d s i n
h is m o u th b u t w h a t th e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t I g a i n e d fr o m w h a t e v e r w o r d s
h e u s e d w a s t h a t i t w a s s u c h a h u g e s h o c k t o le a r n t h a t e ffe c tiv e ly a
p r i v a t e a ir c r a f t h a d b e e n a ll o w e d t o l a n d a t Wa t e r k l o o f . I f I p u t it i n m y
o w n w o r d s I t h in k w h a t e v e r w o r d s h e u s e d g a v e m e t h e i m p r e s s io n t h a t
h e w a s s a y in g , th is w a s a n a b o m in a ti o n . N o w y o u b e in g .

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L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : C h ie f o f t h e A ir F o r c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

H ig h u p in t h e m i li t a r y, C h i e f o f th e A ir F o r c e , w h a t

w a s y o u r r e a c ti o n ? W h a t w a s y o u r f e e l in g a b o u t t h is c o m m e r c i a l
a ir c r a f t b e i n g a ll o w e d t o la n d a t W a t e r k lo o f ? H o w b a d w a s t h i s th in g t o
a l e a d e r o f t h e Ar m y o f t h e c o u n tr y t o s o m e b o d y h i g h u p in t h e
le a d e r s h i p o f th e Ar m y o f t h e c o u n tr y ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : T h is is t o ta ll y u n a c c e p t a b l e . T h i s
h u r t m e p e r s o n a lly. T h i s w a s s o m e t h i n g t h a t I n e v e r d i d i m a g in e th a t i t
c o u l d h a p p e n . I t w a s a n u n f o r tu n a t e s it u a ti o n . A s a c o m m a n d e r o f t h a t
10

e n t i ty, t h i s u n d e r n o r m a l c ir c u m s t a n c e s w o u l d h a v e r e q u ir e d o f c o u r s e
a b o a r d o f in q u i r y o f w h i c h w e i m m e d i a t e ly i n s ti t u te d a p r e li m i n a r y
in v e s t i g a t io n w i th in t h e S o u th A fr ic a n A ir F o r c e . A p r e li m i n a r y i s a s h o r t
in t e n s i v e i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d o f c o u r s e i t d i d h u r t t h e i m a g e o f th e
D e f e n c e F o r c e a n d o f th e c o u n tr y. H e n c e , t h e r a p i d r e a c t io n o f t h e
C h i e f o f t h e S o u th A f r i c a n N a ti o n a l D e f e n c e F o r c e i n in s t i tu t in g th e
b o a r d o f i n q u ir y a t h is l e v e l a n d t h e n t h e s e c u r i ty c lu s t e r i m m e d i a te ly
a ft e r th a t . T h is j u s t s h o w s t h e i m p o r t a n c e t h e v a r io u s g o v e r n m e n t
d e p a r t m e n ts a t t a c h e d to t h is i n c i d e n t . I r e p e a t a g a in . I t is fo r t h i s
r e a s o n t h a t w e a r e l o o k i n g a n d w a r g a m in g t h e n e w i n s tr u c ti o n , th e

20

overarching

in s t r u c t i o n

because

when

you

deal

w i th

so

many

g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts a t l e v e l 4 t h a t I s p o k e o f w h e r e y o u d e a li n g
w i t h b o r d e r p o l ic e , c u s t o m s , i m m i g r a ti o n , D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l t h , S A R S ,
D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u lt u r e , n a t u r a l c o n s e r v a ti o n , t h e m il i t a r y p o l ic e ,
c o u n t e r in t e l li g e n c e a n d s o f o r t h a n d a l s o D e r c o . T h e r e is a h u g e
n u m b e r o f d e p a r t m e n ts th a t l e v e l 4 y o u a r e d e a l in g w i t h th o s e p e o p l e .

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I t s h o u ld b e t h e c a s e . Th e e n t r y p o i n t s h o u l d b e a t th e r i g h t le v e l a n d
o f t h i s i n te r d e p a r t m e n t a l i n s tr u m e n t s e e k s t o a d d r e s s j u s t t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u w o u l d s a y t h i s is s o m e th i n g th a t s h o u l d n e v e r,

ever happen again?
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG:

Ye s . N o , n o i t s h o u l d n ’ t h a p p e n ,

n e v e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u . J u s t o n t h e S O P s t h a t y o u
h a v e p u t u p , G e n e r a l , I s e e y o u h a v e a lo o k a t p a r a g r a p h 5 , p a g e 5
10

p a r a g r a p h 5 o f t h e s t a n d a r d o p e r a ti n g p r o c e d u r e s .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : I s i t t h e in t e r i m ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o , s o r r y. W e ’r e lo o k i n g a t t h i s .
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG: The?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: No, no, no FF10.
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG: FF10.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s . Ye s , p a g e 5 .
CHAIRPERSON: FF10 page 5.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG: Okay page 5.

20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : U n d e r d iv id e r 2 .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : O k a y, u n d e r d iv id e r 2 ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG: Thank you.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : M a y b e w e s h o u l d s t a r t w it h p a r a g r a p h 2 .
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG: Paragraph 2?

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : P a r a g r a p h 2 , y e s . T h o s e S O P s th e p l a c e
t h e r e s p o n s i b ili t y o f is s u in g o f t h e o v e r fl ig h t a n d l a n d i n g a u th o r i ti e s .
T h e y m a k e i t t h e r e s p o n s ib il i ty o f t h e f li g h t c e n tr e s i t u a t e d i n t h e
o p e r a ti o n a l c o m p l e x .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

U n d e r th e a d m i n is tr a t iv e c o m m a n d a n d

f u n c t i o n a l c o m m a n d o f t h e ( A F C P ) s e n io r c o n tr o ll e r.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : T h a t ’s it .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W o u l d th a t b e l e v e l 4 ?
10

L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : T h a t i s n o w le v e l 3 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is l e v e l 3 ?
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG: Level 3.
ADV

THANDI

NORMAN

SC:

A lr ig h t .

And

th e n

it

te ll s

us…

( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : B e c a u s e r e m e m b e r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : L e v e l 3 is , o k a y i t ’s l e v e l 3 .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h is is le v e l 3 . O k a y, t h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n
it t h e n te ll s u s i n p a r a g r a p h 4 a n d 5 a b o u t th e p r o c e s s t h a t m u s t b e
20

f o ll o w e d b u t w h a t I w o u ld lik e u s to t a l k a b o u t i s p a r a g r a p h 5 . W h e r e i t
s a y s , t h e r e q u e s t f o r t h e is s u in g o f a n o v e r fl ig h t a n d la n d i n g a u t h o r i ty
c a n b e d iv id e d i n t o tw o ty p e s o f a u t h o r i ty. 1 .) A n R S A 0 5 i n t e r n a ti o n a l
a u t h o r i ty. T h is i s r e le v a n t to w h a t w e ’r e ta l k in g a b o u t .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : E x a c t ly.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

O k a y. N o w t h is a u th o r i ty is i s s u e d to

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f o r e i g n m il i ta r y o r g o v e r n m e n t o w n e d o r c h a r te r e d a ir c r a f t o r t o R S A
r e g is t e r e d a ir c r a f t c h a r te d f o r g o v e r n m e n t p u r p o s e s c r o s s in g t h e R S A
in t e r n a t io n a l b o u n d a r i e s a n d i s d iv id e d i n t o t h r e e c a t e g o r i e s . S o i f o n e
lo o k s a t th e c ir c u m s t a n c e s o n t h e W a te r k l o o f r e q u e s t.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : Ye s , M a ’a m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : B e in g a w o r d in g p a r ty, c o m i n g b a c k t o th e
q u e s t io n t h a t th e C h a ir p e r s o n h a d a s k e d y o u . Th a t w i t h o u t l o o k i n g a t
t h e l o o p h o l e s , a n y o ffi c i a l k n o w i n g e x a c t ly w h a t is i t t h a t’s r e q u ir e d
w o u ld k n o w t h a t t h a t d o e s n ’ t f i t . I t d o e s n ’ t fi t w i t h i n th a t r e q u i r e m e n t .
10

L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG:

T h a t ’s i f th e c o r r e c t i n f o r m a ti o n

w a s g iv e n fr o m t h e w o r d g o .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s .
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG:

S o if t h e r e w a s n o m e n t io n o f

M i n is t e r s , n o m e n t io n o f w h o e v e r y o u u n d e r s t a n d ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S u p p o s in g t h a t r e a ll y th e r e w a s o n e o r t w o
20

M i n is t e r s t h a t w e r e c a r r i e d o n t h is a ir c r a f t b u t i f o n e t a k e s t h e e v i d e n c e
o f M r M a tj il a t h is m o r n in g t h a t t h e r e w a s n e v e r a n y p r o to c o l . N o o n e t o
m e e t a n d g r e e t . T h e r e w a s n o m e e t in g s w i t h i n th e s t a k e h o l d e r s t o d e a l
w i t h h o w y o u a r e g o in g to d e a l w i th t h i s ; w h e r e a r e t h e y g o i n g to b e
a c c o m m o d a t e d . S o e v e n i f th e r e w a s a m e n ti o n o f M i n i s te r s , i f o n e h a d
lo o k e d c a r e f u lly a t t h e r e q u e s t i t s e l f, o n e w o u ld h a v e f o u n d t h a t g i v e n

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t h e p r o c e s s t h a t h a s t o b e fo ll o w e d it w a s n o t p o s s ib l e t h a t t h e r e w o u l d
h a v e b e e n M i n is t e r s o f t h e a ir c r a f t o r a m I s i m p l y s tr e t c h i n g it t o o f a r ?
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG: No, you are correct.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG:

Yo u a r e c o r r e c t. A p a r t f r o m t h a t,

t h e r e w o u ld h a v e b e e n a n in t e r d e p a r t m e n t a l m e e ti n g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG:

W h ic h in f o r m s a ll t h e r e l e v a n t

parties of what is happening who needs to do what.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG: And so forth.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG:

A n d fr o m w h a t I c o u l d d e d u c e

fr o m t h e t w o b o a r d s o f i n q u ir y, t h a t n e v e r t o o k p la c e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

In the moment it was an RSA05 that conveyed the

i m p r e s s io n th a t th e r e w o u l d b e a H e a d o f S t a t e o r a d e p u ty H e a d o f
S t a te .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : A M i n is te r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O r a M i n is t e r.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : O f a p a r t ic u l a r le v e l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d a n y o n e f il li n g i n a n d m a k i n g i t a n R S A 0 5 n o t
k n o w i n g t h a t w a s a w a r e t h a t t h e y w e r e m a k in g m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Th a n k y o u . A n d y o u t o ld th e c h a ir p e r s o n

t h a t w h e n y o u h e a r d a b o u t t h is y o u w e r e s h o c k e d b u t I lik e t o k n o w
w h e n d id y o u a c t u a l ly g e t t o k n o w a b o u t th e l a n d i n g ? W a s i t a d a y a ft e r
t h e l a n d in g o r w a s i t a w e e k a f t e r t h e l a n d i n g ? W h e n e x a c tl y d i d y o u
g e t t o k n o w a b o u t i t?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : O n t h e v e r y s a m e d a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , a n d t h e n a s w e ’ v e b e e n to ld b e c a u s e
10

t h e r e w o u ld h a v e b e e n g i v e n a c l e a r a n c e … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : T h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d w a s th a t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG: We ran to.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u i m m e d i a t e ly w a n te d t o k n o w w h a t’s t h a t?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : I w a s i n a m e e t in g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG: And then I see that I heard a lot of
m is s e d c a ll s . I s a y, o k a y n o w w h a t ’s h a p p e n i n g . C h e c k t h a t o k a y, c h e c k
y o u r T V, g o c h e c k y o u r T V, g o c h e c k t h e T V a n d w e s a w w h a t w a s

20

h a p p e n in g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h e y w e r e , t h is a ir c r a f t w a s s u p p o s e d
t o r e tu r n o n t h e 3 r d o f M a y. S o n o w i t is la n d e d a t Wa t e r k l o o f b u t w e
k n o w th a t i t d i d n ’ t l e a v e fr o m W a te r k l o o f t o I n d ia . I t h a d t o g o t o O R
Ta m b o . D o y o u h a v e a n y d e a l in g s w it h t h a t p r o c e s s ? A f te r t h e n y o u
d is c o v e r e d t h a t it h a d l a n d e d i n t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h i t d i d , w h a t s t e p s

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d i d y o u ta k e to m a k e s u r e t h a t i t d o e s n o t l e a v e o u t o f W a t e r k l o o f
a g a in ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : N o , w e i m m e d i a t e ly i n d i c a t e d th a t
t h e a ir c r a f t m u s t b e r e p o s it i o n e d o u ts id e t h e A ir F o r c e b a s e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d t h a t in s tr u c ti o n w o u l d h a v e b e e n
g iv e n to ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : To m y, a t t h a t ti m e i t w a s G e n e r a l
O ff ic e r C o m m a n d in g o f t h e A ir F o r c e .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , a n d th a t is o u t i t w a s m o v e d t o O R
10

Ta m b o ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : Ye s , o f c o u r s e a n d t h e n t h e s t a ff
t h a t w e r e d e a li n g w it h i t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG:

D id t h e n e c e s s a r y a c ti v i ti e s t o

m a k e s u r e th a t i t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : I t w a s r e p o s i t io n e d , y e s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

D i d y o u a t a n y s t a g e m a k e c o n t a c t w i th

C a p t a i n K u r ty f r o m I n d i a H ig h C o m m i s s io n i n I n d i a w h o w a s t h e o n e
20

w h o w a s li a is i n g w i th in f a c t s e n t d ir e c t ly c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t o th e l e v e l 4
o ffic i a ls ? T h e r e ’s t h a t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e i t ’s fr o m C a p t a i n K u r ty.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : To m e ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o , n o , n o n o t to y o u .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : O h o k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: I just want to know even if it was not him.

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LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG:

Ye s .

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : D i d y o u t r y a n d e s t a b li s h fr o m t h e I n d i a n
H i g h C o m m i s s i o n a s t o h o w d id th is h a p p e n , y o u k n o w ? W h a t
p r o c e d u r e s d i d y o u f o l lo w b e f o r e y o u a l l o w th is t o h a p p e n ?
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG:

M a ’ a m , i m m e d ia t e l y a ft e r w e g o t

w i n d o f th is t h a t ’s w h e n w e i n it i a t e d a s I s a i d o u r, s o r r y o u r i n te r n a l .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e b o a r d o f i n q u ir y ?
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG: No, what do they call it.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e p r e l i m i n a r y i n v e s ti g a t i o n ?
10

L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : P r e l i m i n a r y i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : T h e p r e l i m in a r y i n v e s t ig a ti o n , y e s .
T h a t ’s w h a t w e i n i ti a te d a n d t h e n i m m e d ia t e ly a f t e r th a t t h e C h i e f o f t h e
D e f e n c e Fo r c e in i ti a te d t h e b o a r d o f in q u i r y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : W h i c h is n o w m o r e , i t’s a t a h i g h
le v e l w h e r e b y I w a s a ls o a s u b j e c t o f t h a t i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Al r i g h t .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : Ye s .

20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

B u t y o u d id n ’ t m a k e c o n t a c t w it h t h e

I n d ia n a u t h o r i t ie s ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : … ( in d is t in c t) .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Okay thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y h a v e s h a k e n y o u r h e a d b u t.
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG: No, no.

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CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u m u s t a r t ic u l a t e y o u r r e s p o n s e s o t h a t i t w il l b e

recorded.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : I d o n ’ t r e c a l l.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Oh thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : I a ls o f o r g o t t o a s k h i m t o d o t h a t . M a y b e
ju s t , I’ m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r th is d i a g r a m t h a t y o u h a v e .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : Ye s , M a ’a m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A t p a g e , u n d e r d iv id e r 4 , y o u h a v e t h e r e ,
10

S o u th A f r ic a n Ai r Fo r c e I n t e r i m A i r Fo r c e in s t r u c t i o n u n d e r 4 a n d t h e n
page 47 of the same document you have a diagram there.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : Ye s , M a ’a m .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I’ m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r y o u w o u l d w a n t t o

t a lk to it o r is i t , d o y o u th i n k i t ’s c o v e r e d b y t h e e x p la n a t i o n th a t
y o u ’v e g i v e n ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : I t ’s c o v e r e d b y t h e e x p l a n a t io n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u g a v e e a r l ie r ?
LIEUTENANT

GENERAL

MSIMANG:

Ye s ,

i t ’s

covered

by

the

e x p l a n a t io n .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : R e m e m b e r th is is j u s t i n t e r i m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : I t h in k I d i d a l s o s h a r e w i t h y o u a
m a tr ix w h ic h s p e a k s t o t h e e v o l u ti o n o f t h e o v e r fl i g h t a n d c le a r a n c e
in s t r u c t i o n s fr o m 2 0 /0 7 2 0 1 4 , 2 0 1 8 , 2 0 1 9 .

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A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : Ye s , s o y o u c a n , t h i s is w o r k i n
p r o g r e s s a n d t h e n w e a r e s ti ll a w a i ti n g t o p r e s e n t t h i s t o th e p l e n a r y
d e f e n c e s ta ff c o u n c i l f o r a p p r o v a l .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d i t is a ls o ju s t … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG:

A n d t h e n I w i ll g e t t h e n t h e g o

a h e a d a n d f u r th e r g u i d e l in e s fr o m t h e C h i e f o f t h e S o u th A f r i c a n
N a t io n a l D e fe n c e F o r c e a n d t h e s e c r e t a r y o f D e f e n c e b e f o r e i t is
promulgated.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o l e t m e u n d e r s t a n d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e d o c u m e n t a t p a g e 2 7 ?
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG:

T h e o n e w h i c h I ’ m s p e a k in g t o ,

t h e m a tr ix ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t y o u a r e ta lk i n g , j a .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : P a g e 2 7 , w h ic h d iv id e r ?
CHAIRPERSON: Under divider 4.
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG: Under divider 4.
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG: Page 27.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e o n e m a r k e d S o u t h A f r ic a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o u t h A f r ic a n A i r F o r c e , i n te r i m A ir F o r c e i n s tr u c ti o n .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : Ye s , y e s .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t ’s th e d o c u m e n t y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : T h a t ’s a n i n t e r i m in s t r u c t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n te r i m s ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : Ye s , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Does it represent some of the steps that the Air Force
in d e e d th e D e f e n c e F o r c e h a s ta k e n s u b s e q u e n t t o th is i n c i d e n t ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : Ye s , y e s it h a s .
CHAIRPERSON:

To t r y a n d a d d r e s s w h a t e v e r w i t n e s s e s m a y h a v e

b e e n i d e n t if i e d ?
10

LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG:

Ye s , a n d a ls o to m a k e s u r e t h a t

t h e e n t r y - l e v e l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : F o r s u c h r e q u e s ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG: Is at the correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG: Level, yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG:
20

T h e e n tr y p o in t , s o r r y i s a t t h e

correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is a t th e c o r r e c t l e v e l ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u ’r e s a y i n g i t ’s n o t th e fi n a l v e r s i o n y e t ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : I t ’s n o t t h e f in a l v e r s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t ’s n o t t h e a p p r o v e d v e r s io n a s y e t?

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L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : Ye s b u t i t is a p p r o v e d b y m e a t my
le v e l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e id e a is ju s t t o s h o w t h e C o m m i s s io n w h a t w o r k
is b e i n g u n d e r t a k e n to tr y a n d a d d r e s s s o m e o f th e w e a k n e s s e s
id e n t i fi e d ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t. T h a n k y o u .
10

L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : S o t h a t’s w i th i n t h e , y e s w i t h i n th e
A ir F o r c e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG:

B u t s u b s e q u e n tly, o k a y I t h in k

w e ’l l l e a v e i t a t th a t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t i t w i ll s ti ll g o t h r o u g h o t h e r

le v e ls fo r f in a l a p p r o v a l .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : E x a c t ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, t h a n k y o u .
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . T h e n I th in k

w e ’v e c o v e r e d e v e r y t h i n g i n y o u r s t a te m e n t. L e t m e ju s t d o u b l e c h e c k
t h a t I h a v e n ’t l e f t o u t a n y th in g t o t h a t . O h a n d m a y b e ju s t t o c o n fir m ,
I’ m s o r r y G e n e r a l . J u s t to c o n f ir m t h a t y o u m a d e t h e s t a te m e n t b e fo r e
t h e b o a r d o f i n q u ir y. G e n e r a l M g w e b i h a s a lr e a d y m a d e m e n ti o n o f t h a t .
T h a t w i ll b e i n E x h i b i t F F 4 .

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : Ye s , M a ’a m .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d i f y o u c o u l d j u s t i d e n ti f y th a t

s t a te m e n t . It a p p e a r s fr o m p a g e 1 o f th a t b u n d le .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : Ye s , M a ’a m .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d i t is i n li n e w i th y o u r e v i d e n c e
today on how the landing happened.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : Ye s , M a ’a m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e i r r e g u l a r it i e s th a t y o u p o in t e d o u t .
That goes up to page 22.
10

LIEUTENANT GENERAL MSIMANG: 22?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , a n d d o y o u s e e t h a t? Is t h a t y o u r

s ig n a tu r e t h e r e ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : T h a t i s m y s ig n a tu r e , M a ’ a m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h , M a ’a m .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l , u n l e s s I h a v e m i s s e d s o m e th in g o r u n l e s s I

h a v e m i s s e d t h is , a l t h o u g h y o u p r o v i d e d u s w i t h th e , w i th t h i s i n t e r i m .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L M S I M A N G : I n s tr u c ti o n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I n s t r u c t i o n , y o u h a v e n ’t h i g h l ig h te d s o m e o f t h e n e w
s u g g e s t io n s . I m a y h a v e m is s e d i t . To s a y in t h e p a s t t h is i s w h a t w o u l d
h a p p e n b u t i n te r ms o f th is p r o p o s e d n e w in s t r u c t i o n th is is w h a t w o u ld
b e d i ff e r e n t.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B IA N M S I M A N G :
t h r o u g h t h a t s ir.

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I can go

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
CHAIRPERSON: Pardon?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B IA N M S I M A N G :

I can go

through that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e d o t h a t j a .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : C h a ir i t is f o r
t h a t r e a s o n t h a t I d id s h a r e t h e s e m a n t i c s t o s h o w t h e e v o l u ti o n o f
where we were 2007, then we had a draft DODE 2014. In 2007 which
w a s a n S O P, a t t h e A i r F o r c e C o m m a n d P o s t th is w a s a t l e v e l 4 a s I
in d i c a t e d , w r o n g le v e l .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h e r e t h e r e q u e s t w o u l d c o m e i n .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: At that time, yes.
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G : A t t h a t ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s w e ll a s 2 0 1 3 ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B IA N M S I M A N G :

And the

n o d u l e p o i n t a t t h a t p o in t w a s A ir F o r c e C o m m a n d P o s t , a n d t h e n
s u b s e q u e n t ly t o t h a t w e h a d t h e n o d u l e p o i n t b e in g C h i e f D e f e n c e
I n t e lli g e n c e . T h e a p p r o v a l w a s C h i e f D e f e n c e I n t e l li g e n c e , a c r o n y m w e
u s e d C D I , a n d t h e n th e i n s tr u c ti o n w a s C A F w h ic h i s C h i e f o f t h e A ir
20

F o r c e , a n d th e e x e c u t io n w a s th e n a t t h a t t i m e w a s C A F b u t ( A ir Fo r c e
C o m m a n d P o s t ) t h a t i s t h e – a n d t h e n i t s t ill r e m a in s t h e s a m e i n 1 4 , i n
1 8 a n d i n to th e f u t u r e b e c a u s e t h a t’s a c t u a ll y a ( i n d is ti n c t ) p o i n t , a n d
t h e n th e A c c o u n t i n g A u th o r i ty 2 0 1 4 i t w a s n o t a d d r e s s e d b u t t h e
c o n tr o ll i n g a u t h o r i ty a t t h a t t i m e i t w a s i n t h e d r a f t i t w a s S A G D A F, i n
t h e p r e v io u s o n e 2 0 0 7 th a t w a s n o t t h e c a s e .

Page 113 of 120

R e s p o n s ib l e a u t h o r i ty

04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
2 0 0 7 i t w a s n o t t h e r e . 2 0 1 4 i t w a s i n c lu d e d . I n t h e d r a ft i t i s i n c l u d e d ,
b u t t h is t i m e a u t h o r it y is n o w w i t h i n t h e o p e r a ti o n a l le v e l o f m y
e n v ir o n m e n t , th a t is th e C h i e f o f A ir S t a ff O p e r a t io n s , n o w i t ’s g o i n g t o
b e n o w a M a j o r G e n e r a l , i t ’s L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l, M a j o r G e n e r a l w h o
w i ll n o w b e r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h e o p e r a ti o n a l a s p e c t o f i t , w h o r e p o r ts
d ir e c t ly t o m e a n d t h e n e x e c u ti n g a u t h o r it y r e m a in s t h e s a m e b u t in
2007 it was not there.
Decision makers 2007 it was not there, in 2014 draft it was
C D I a n d C A F.
10

I n t h e in t e r i m i t w a s s u g g e s te d t h a t it s h o u l d b e t h e

M O D , M i n is t e r o f D e f e n c e b u t w a s s u b s e q u e n t ly c h a n g e d a n d i ts
C h i e f ’s o f D e fe n c e a n d C h ie f o f t h e A ir F o r c e a n d a l l th e s e u p d a t e s a r e
d o n e i n e i t h e r t h e M il i ta r y C o m m a n d C o u n c il o r t h e ( in d is ti n c t) D e f e n c e
S t a ff C o u n c i l , i n t h o s e f o r u m s .
T h i s a p p r o v a l c r i te r i a , w h i c h is v e r y i m p o r t a n t , i t w a s n o t t h e r e
in 2 0 0 7 , i t w a s n o t t h e r e in 2 0 1 4 , b u t w a s i n c l u d e d i n 2 0 1 8 a n d a ls o t h e
2019 version.

T h e f i n a n c i a l i m p l ic a ti o n s w h ic h is a l s o e q u a ll y

i m p o r t a n t i t w a s n o t t h e r e i n t h e 2 0 0 7 d o c u m e n t . 2 0 1 4 y e s i t is , i t w a s
n o t th e r e , in 2 0 1 8 it w a s in c l u d e d a n d a ls o i n t h e 2 0 1 9 .

If we go

f u r th e r i n t e r m s o f t h e in t e r d e p a r t m e n t a l a r r a n g e m e n t 2 0 1 4 , t h a t ’s w h e n
20

w e – i t w a s c it e d th a t it s h o u l d b e i n c l u d e d , i t w a s n o t t h e r e i n 2 0 0 7 , i n
2 0 1 4 , 2 0 1 8 it w a s i n c l u d e d b u t i t w a s t h e n w i t h d r a w n b e c a u s e
r e m e m b e r t h e D O D E i t is a D e p a r t m e n t a l i n s tr u m e n t s o t h e r e h a s t o b e
s o m e t h i n g th a t a c t u a lly, w h i c h is o v e r a r c h i n g w h ic h in c l u d e s a ll t h e
o th e r g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts , a n d t h e n w e h a d t h e p r o c e s s e s , i n 2 0 0 7
it w a s j u s t t h e in t e r n a l p r o c e s s e s , n o t h i n g th a t h a d to d o w it h t h e

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
external processes.
e x e c u te s .

In 2 0 1 4 w e h a d th e C D I w a s in t h e lo o p , C A F

I n 2 0 1 8 t h e – in t h e i n t e r i m w a s M O D r e c e iv e s th e

a p p r o v a l s , C S N D F in s tr u c ts , C D I r e c o m m e n d s a n d C A F e x e c u t e s . T h a t
w a s s u b s e q u e n tly c h a n g e d a n d t h e n th e r e is a – f o r t h e D O D E t h e
s u g g e s t io n i s C D I r e c e i v e s , in v e s ti g a t e s , a p p r o v e s a n d t h e n in f o r m s th e
M O D a n d C S N D F.
N o w o n c e t h a t is d o n e i t t h e n c l o s e s a ll l o o p s , w e a l l a r e n o w
m a n d a t e d , w e k n o w e x a c tly w h o d o e s w h a t a n d t h e l e v e l f o u r is n o
lo n g e r e x p o s e d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .

Then maybe I

n e e d t o p u t th is q u e s t io n to y o u b e c a u s e it w a s p u t to M r N ts h is i t h a t
n o w h a v i n g d o n e t h i s t h e m e m b e r s o f y o u r s t a ff n o t fo ll o w i n g w h a t – t h e
p r o c e s s e s t h a t w e r e th e r e t h a t o u g h t to h a v e b e e n f o ll o w e d , b u t t h e n
M a jo r N t s h is i o r w h o w a s n o t a M a j o r a t th e ti m e , g e t s p r o m o t e d , th e n I
ju s t w a n t to u n d e r s t a n d w o u l d y o u h a v e b e e n i n v o l v e d i n th a t p r o m o ti o n
a n d r e c o m m e n d e d h i s p r o m o t i o n t o a m a j o r p o s i t io n a n d i f s o w h y i n
t h e li g h t o f w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d ?
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :
20

Ma’am the

M a jo r w a s c h a r g e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

And after

t h a t h is c a r e e r c o n ti n u e s . U n le s s y o u a r e s u g g e s ti n g t h a t s e e i n g t h a t
h e h a d t h e r e w e r e s o m e n e g a t iv e fi n d i n g s o n h i m h e s h o u l d n ’ t b e
p r o m o te d o r h e s h o u l d n ’ t u n d e r g o f u r th e r d e v e l o p m e n t a n d s o f o r t h , I

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
w o u ld a ls o li k e t o p u t i t o n r e c o r d h e r e t h a t M a j o r o r th e W a r r a n t
O ff ic e r a t t h a t ti m e , i f I r e m e m b e r w e l l , h e w a s b e i n g p r e p a r e d t o b e
a tt a c h e d to D I R C O , b e c a u s e a t t h a t ti m e w e d i d s e n s e t h a t t h e r e w a s a
p r o b le m . H e n c e a t th e l e v e l o f a w a r r a n t o ffic e r h e w a s , it w a s p a r t o f
h is c a r e e r p la n s t h a t h e w o u l d g e t t h e tr a i n in g a n d a f te r th a t g e t
d e p lo y e d t o D IR C O t o e n s u r e th a t t h e r e i s s m o o th o p e r a t i o n s b e t w e e n
us and DIRCO.
W h a t w e ’r e t a lk in g a b o u t h e r e is t h e i d e a . W h e n th i n g s s t a r t
h a p p e n in g e s p e c ia ll y w h e n t h e r e a r e t ig h t s c h e d u l e s to m e e t y o u n e e d
10

t o h a v e s o m e o n e w h o u n d e r s t a n d s w h a t ’s h a p p e n in g f r o m t h e A i r F o r c e
s id e a n d a ls o fr o m t h e D I R C O s id e , s o w e t o o k t h a t i n i ti a ti v e t o s a y
o k a y w e ’r e g o i n g to t r a in t h is g e n t le m a n a n d t h e n a f t e r t h a t w e s e n d
h i m t o D I R C O , th a t w a s o u r p l a n , t h a t w a s in o u r p la n s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Okay thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h M a jo r w a s th a t , I m is s e d th a t q u e s ti o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : M a j o r N ts h is i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N t s h is i?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .

20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n th e l i g h t o f y o u b e in g C h ie f o f t h e A ir F o r c e I j u s t
w a n t t o i n d ic a t e t h a t th e i n v e s ti g a to r s – I a m to ld t h a t th e i n v e s ti g a to r s
o f t h e C o m m is s i o n a n d t h e L e g a l Te a m h a v e b e e n tr y i n g t o g e t a
c e r t a i n r e c o r d i n g o f t h e c o n v e r s a t io n b e tw e e n I th in k A m b a s s a d o r
K o lo a n e a n d – is i t . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

B e t w e e n A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e a n d

Lieutenant Colonel Anderson.
CHAIRPERSON: Anderson yes.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

And Ambassador Koloane and Warrant

O ff ic e N ts h is i a t t h e t i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a n d t h a t a t a c e r ta i n s t a g e S t a t e S e c u r i ty A g e n c y
h a d p r o m is e d t o m a k e s u r e i t w a s f u r n i s h e d to th e C o m m i s s io n b y la s t
Fr id a y I th in k b u t i t s e e m s th a t th e r e w a s a ls o s o m e i n d i c a t io n i t c o u l d
b e f u r n i s h e d o n M o n d a y o r I m i g h t h a v e m y fa c t s n o t r ig h t th e r e b u t i t
10

w a s p r o m is e d a n d i t is s t ill n o t h e r e . I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t r o l e , i f a n y th e
D e f e n c e Fo r c e h a s o r m a y h a v e a n d p o w e r i n m a k i n g s u r e th a t w e g e t
it . S o I j u s t w a n t t o a l e r t y o u t o th is a n d s a y M s N o r m a n c o u l d s p e a k to
y o u a f t e r th is a n d g i v e y o u m o r e in f o r m a t io n a n d a s k y o u to a s s is t . I
w o u ld l ik e – w e a i m t o f in is h t h e w i t n e s s e s t h a t w e r e li n e d u p fo r t h i s
s e s s i o n i n r e g a r d to W a te r k l o o f e a r ly n e x t w e e k a n d I w o u l d l ik e th a t , i f
p o s s i b le , th e C o m m i s s i o n c o u l d h a v e , b y t o m o r r o w t o p r e p a r e f o r n e x t
w e e k . S o i f t h e r e is a n y c h a n c e t h a t y o u c o u l d … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

W e ’ ll

e n d e a v o u r t o a s s i s t.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u ’ ll tr y d o th a t j a , n o t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .
LIEUTENANT

GENERAL

Z I M PA N D E

FA B I A N

MSIMANG:

And

C h a ir p e r s o n I m u s t s t a te t h is , th a t w i th in t h e S o u th A fr ic a n A ir F o r c e s o
is t h e S A N D F, S o u t h A f r i c a n N a t io n a l D e f e n c e Fo r c e w e h a v e d e d ic a t e d
p e o p l e , p e o p le w h o g o o u t o f th e ir w a y t o m a k e t h i n g s h a p p e n , p e o p l e
w h o h a v e ta k e n a n o a t h t o s e r v e t h is c o u n tr y a n d i f n e e d s b e t o d i e fo r

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
t h is c o u n tr y. T h e s e a r e t h e m e n a n d w o m e n w h o , t h e o r d i n a r y p e r s o n
d o e s n o t s e e t h e m g e t – g o i n g a b o u t th e ir t a s k s o n a d a y - to - d a y b a s is
s e r v i n g o u r p e o p l e o n th e – tr y i n g to m a n t h e b o r d e r s , a s s i s t i n g o t h e r
g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts a s y o u c a n s e e w h a t t h e Ar m y is b e i n g d o in g
in th e Va a l a r e a , w h a t th e M e d ic a l H e a l th a r m o f s e r v ic e is d o i n g – h a s
b e e n d o i n g w h e n , N a t i o n a l ly t h e M e d i c a l H e a l th S e r v i c e p u t s t o o ls
d o w n , t h e A i r f o r c e w h e n t h e y a r e c a l le d u p o n t o d o r e s c u e s i n
m o u n t a in s a t s e a a n d t h e N a v y t o o a n d i n m y c a s e s t h e y ’r e n o t
adequately
10

a p p r e c ia t e d .

They

o p e r a te

under

very

d i ffi c u l t

c ir c u m s ta n c e s w i th a d w i n d li n g b u d g e t a n d th e y a r e e x p e c t e d t o d o
more and one of our tasks as Commanders is to ensure that we support
S t a te D e p a r t m e n t s fo r t h e p u r p o s e o f s o c ia l e c o n o m i c u p li f t m e n t , i t ’s
n o t s e e n w e d o n ’ t t a lk a b o u t i t b u t w e d o it . N o t lo n g a g o , l a s t w e e k ,
w e w e r e i n v o l v e d in K Z N w e h a d a tw o - w e e k b o o t c a m p s u m m e r s c h o o l
w i t h s t u d e n ts f r o m G r a d e 1 0 , 11 , 1 2 w o r k in g w i th t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
E d u c a ti o n , h e l p i n g t h e m w i t h m a t h s a n d s c ie n c e a n d s o fo r t h a n d w h e n
t h i n g s g o b a d t h is is y o u r fi r s t l in e o f d e f e n c e a n d a ls o p r o b a b l y y o u r
la s t li n e o f d e fe n c e . Ye s , w e d o h a v e g a p s in o u r p r o c e s s e s a n d s o
f o r th , t h i s d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r il y s a y th a t a ll is w r o n g i n t h e D e f e n c e

20

F o r c e o r w h a t e v e r i t is .

W e a r e t r y i n g o u r le v e l b e s t u n d e r t h e

c ir c u m s ta n c e s a n d w e p le a d t h a t t h e D e f e n c e F o r c e m u s t b e l o o k e d
u p o n d i ff e r e n t ly, y e s w e ’v e g o t o u r c h a l le n g e s d o n ’ t f o r g e t w e a r e a s
o l d a s t h is d e m o c r a c y, w e a r e s t il l i n tr a n s i ti o n , w e h a v e is s u e s o f
tr a n s fo r m a t i o n ,

not

tr a n s f o r m a ti o n

in

tr a n s fo r m i n g t h e s y s t e m s a n d s o f o r t h .

terms

of

black

and

w h i te ,

Ye s , t h e r e a r e g o in g to b e

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
g a p s , y e s w e n e e d to m a k e s u r e t h a t w e h a v e s u ff ic ie n t fu n d s t o s e n d
p e o p l e to tr a in a d e q u a t e ly, w e n e e d to o v e r h a u l th e s y s te m s t h a t w e
h a v e to b e i n li n e w it h o u r to d a y ’s r e q u i r e m e n t s .
s u p p o r t ; w e a ls o n e e d t h a t s p a c e .

We also need that

Ye s , w h a t h a p p e n e d is s o m e t h i n g

t h a t s h o u l d n e v e r h a p p e n a g a i n , b u t w e a ls o n e e d t h e s u p p o r t o f t h e
m e n a n d w o m e n o n t h e s tr e e ts , t h e p e o p l e th a t w e d e fe n d , th e p e o p l e
t h a t w e – y o u n o w to g e t h e r w i t h t h e p o l ic e tr y a n d e n s u r e t h a t t h e y a r e
s a f e , w e n e e d t h e ir s u p p o r t , th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h L ie u te n a n t G e n e r a l M s i m a n g I

c a n te ll y o u t h a t m y o w n i m p r e s s i o n is t h a t th e S o u t h A fr i c a n N a ti o n a l
D e f e n c e F o r c e e n jo y s a l o t o f s u p p o r t fr o m s o c i e t y, t h e p o p u l a ti o n a n d I
d o n o t th i n k th a t m o s t p e o p le w o u l d s i m p l y b y k n o w i n g t h a t s o m e th i n g –
s o m e i n c i d e n t h a p p e n e d t h a t s h o u l d n ’ t h a v e h a p p e n e d th a t t h e y w o u ld
t h e n s a y f o r g e t a b o u t th is D e f e n c e Fo r c e , t h a t ’s n o t m y i m p r e s s io n b u t
a s y o u s a y, th e D e f e n c e F o r c e m a n y p e o p l e d o n ’ t s e e i t o n a d a ily
b a s is b u t m y o w n i m p r e s s i o n is t h a t m a n y p e o p l e a p p r e c ia t e t h e f a c t
t h a t t h e y k n o w i t is th e r e a n d t h a t it is t h e r e f o r t h e m t o d e fe n d th e m .
S o m y o w n i m p r e s s i o n is t h a t t h e p e o p le m i g h t o r m ig h t n o t s h o w a s
m u c h a p p r e c ia t io n a s y o u m i g h t h a v e w is h e d f o r b u t m y o w n i m p r e s s i o n

20

is t h a t i t i s s u p p o r t e d i t is l o v e d , t h a t’s m y o w n i m p r e s s io n , t h a n k y o u
b u t t h a n k y o u o n c e a g a i n f o r h a v i n g c o m e fo r w a r d t o h e lp t h e
C o m m i s s i o n u n d e r s ta n d w h a t h a p p e n e d a n d I d o u b t t h a t a n y b o d y w o u l d
a p p ly f o r l e a v e to c r o s s - e x a m i n e y o u b u t i f t h a t d o e s h a p p e n w e w i ll
a s k y o u to c o m e b a c k a g a in b u t t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h a n d y o u a r e
excused.

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04 JULY 2019 – DAY 127
L I E U T E N A N T G E N E R A L Z I M PA N D E FA B I A N M S I M A N G :

Thank you

v e r y m u c h C h a ir, t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h m a ’ a m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n t h a t c o n c lu d e s t h e
b u s i n e s s o f t h e d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r t o d a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d t h e n o n – t h e n o n M o n d a y w e ’l l s ta r t a t t e n .
D o w e h a v e A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e o n M o n d a y o n ly o r a r e t h e r e m o r e ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

Th e r e is a l s o – I’v e j u s t b e e n t o ld th a t

A m b a s s a d o r M a tj il a h a s a l s o a r r iv e d s o y e s w e w o u l d w a n t to le a d h i m
s o th a t th e y c a n l e a v e – g o b a c k e a r ly in t h e w e e k i f p o s s i b l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d t h e n f o r Tu e s d a y ?
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Fo r Tu e s d a y I t h i n k – I th o s e w il l b e t h e

la s t f o r n o w C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y w e a r e g o i n g t o a d j o u r n th e n f o r t h e d a y a n d

t h e n w e ’l l s ta r t a t t e n o n M o n d a y, w e a d j o u r n .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 8 J U LY 2 0 1 9
20

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