C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U I RY I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

0 3 M AY 2 0 1 9

D AY 8 8

20

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
HEARING RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON :

Good

morning

Ms

S e p t e m b e r,

good

m o r n in g

e v e r y b o d y.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : G o o d m o r n in g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e w e s ta r t I j u s t h a v e tw o m a t te r s t h a t I w a n t t o
d e a l w i th .

T h e o n e is w h a t I s a i d y e s t e r d a y w i t h r e g a r d to C o l o n e l

M a d h o e . S e c t i o n s o f t h e m e d i a m a y h a v e m is u n d e r s t o o d w h a t I s a i d o r
I m a y n o t h a v e a r t ic u l a te d w h a t I w a n t e d t o s a y c o r r e c t ly.

S o I ju s t

w a n t to tr y a g a i n t o m a k e s u r e t h a t I a m n o t m is u n d e r s t o o d .
10

1.

I a m h e a r i n g e v i d e n c e i n r e l a ti o n t o L a w E n fo r c e m e n t A g e n c i e s
in r e g a r d to w h ic h t h e r e is a s u g g e s ti o n t h a t p o w e r s w e r e b e in g
a b u s e d n r e g a r d to t h e a r r e s t a n d p r o s e c u ti o n o f o ff ic e r s w h o
w e r e in v e s ti g a t i n g c o r r u p ti o n m a t te r s a n d t h a t t h e y w e r e b e in g
s u s p e n d e d a n d t h e r e w e r e tr a n s fe r s t h a t a p p e a r n o t t o h a v e b e e n
m o t iv a t e d b y p r o p e r r e a s o n s b u t m a y h a v e b e e n c o n n e c t e d w i th
c o r r u p ti o n o r h a r a s s in g p e o p l e w h o w e r e d o i n g t h e ir jo b . A n d in
r e g a r d t o C o lo n e l M a d h o e I h a v e h e a r d e v i d e n c e t h a t s u g g e s ts

20

t h a t h e m a y b e g u il ty o f c o r r u p t io n .

That he may have been

g u il ty o f b r i b e r y o r a t te m p t e d b r ib e r y.

A n d I h a v e h e a r d th a t i t

appears that not much has been done over many years in regard
t o t h e a ll e g a t io n s a g a i n s t h i m r e la t in g t o b r i b e r y.

A n d th a t

in c l u d e s i n t e r m s o f i n te r n a l d is c ip li n a r y m a t t e r s w i t h i n S A P S .
S o i f n o t m u c h h a s b e e n d o n e o v e r s o m a n y y e a r s th a t w o u l d b e
a m a t t e r o f g r a v e c o n c e r n b u t I a m n o t a t th is s t a g e o r I a m n o t
t h e p e r s o n a t t h is s ta g e t o s a y w h e t h e r h e s h o u l d o r s h o u ld n o t

Page 2 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
b e th e r e a t w o r k .

S o m e b o d y w i th in S A P S i s s u p p o s e d t o l o o k

in t o th e m a t te r a n d ta k e s u c h d e c i s i o n s a s a r e d ic t a t e d b y th e
la w a n d th e p o lic i e s o f S A P S .
W h e t h e r s o m e b o d y h a s a lr e a d y l o o k e d in t o t h e m a tt e r a n d c a m e t o a
d e c is i o n t h a t n o th in g s h o u l d b e d o n e I d o n o t k n o w b u t I w o u l d l ik e t o
k n o w w h e th e r a n y t h i n g h a s b e e n d o n e a n d i f s o w h a t i t is . Th e r e fo r e I
w o u ld l ik e th e s e c o n c e r n s – t h i s i s s u e to b e b r o u g h t t o s e n i o r
a u t h o r i t ie s w i th in S A P S b e c a u s e i t is i m p o r t a n t t o fi n d o u t w h e t h e r t h e y
k n o w a b o u t th e m a tt e r a n d t h e y k n o w w h e t h e r a n y t h in g h a s b e e n d o n e
10

a n d i f n o t h i n g h a s b e e n d o n e w h y n o t h i n g h a s b e e n d o n e , th e y c a n l o o k
in t o t h e m a t t e r. B u t a s a c o m m i s s i o n w e w o u l d d e fi n i t e l y li k e t o h a v e
f u ll i n f o r m a ti o n a s w e ll b e c a u s e t h e r e i s a s u g g e s t i o n i n t h e e v id e n c e
t h a t a s p a r t o f w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g d u r i n g t h e r e l e v a n t ti m e is t h a t
t h o s e o ff ic e r s w h o w e r e d o i n g t h e ir j o b in te r ms o f in v e s t i g a t in g
c o r r u p ti o n c a s e s w e r e b e i n g v ic ti m i s e d a n d o t h e r p e o p l e w e r e n o t b e i n g
d e a lt w it h e v e n w h e n t h e r e w a s a r e a s o n f o r th e m t o b e d e a l t w i th . S o
w e w o u l d li k e to l o o k in t o t h a t . S o t h e le g a l t e a m a n d th e s e c r e t a r y o f
t h e c o m m is s i o n s h o u ld c o m m u n ic a t e w it h t h e s e n io r m a n a g e m e n t o f
S A P S t o e s t a b li s h w h e t h e r p a r t ic u l a r l y o n e I t h in k t h e y c o u l d g o t o t h e

20

N a t io n a l C o m m i s s io n e r b e c a u s e h e w o u ld b e t h e o n e th a t w o u l d k n o w
w h o i n t h e h i e r a r c h y is s u p p o s e d t o h a v e d e a l t w i t h t h e m a t te r a n d
w h e t h e r h e i s a w a r e o f i t a n d w o u l d b e a b le t o c a u s e i n fo r m a ti o n to b e
m a d e a v a i la b le a s t o w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d .

So no judgment has been

made as to whether Colonel Madhoe should or should not be at work. I
h a v e n o t h e a r d C o lo n e l M a d h o e ’s s id e o f t h e s t o r y s o t h e id e a w a s

Page 3 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
c e r t a i n l y n o t th a t I h a v e m a d e a n y d e c is io n a b o u t w h e t h e r o r n o t h e
should be there.

W h a t is i m p o r ta n t i s t o f i n d o u t w h e t h e r t h e s e

a l le g a ti o n s a r e k n o w n t o S A P S ?

What they have done about them if

a n y th in g a n d e v e n i f t h e y h a v e n o t d o n e a n y t h i n g w h y th e y h a v e n o t
done anything?

A n d t h e n t h e m a t t e r c a n b e t a k e n fr o m t h e r e .

A ll

p e o p l e w il l b e g iv e n h e a r – a f a i r h e a r i n g b y t h e c o m m is s i o n n o m a t t e r
h o w s e r i o u s t h e a ll e g a t i o n s a g a i n s t t h e m a r e a n d t h e ir s id e o f th e s t o r y
w i ll b e h e a r d a n d c o n s i d e r e d p r o p e r l y a n d f a ir l y a n d n o b o d y w il l b e
p r e s u m e d t o b e g u il t y o f a n y t h i n g j u s t b e c a u s e a w i tn e s s h a s s a i d h e o r
10

s h e d i d s o m e t h i n g . F in d in g s w il l b e m a d e a t t h e e n d o f th e w o r k o f t h e
c o m m i s s io n . S o e v e r y b o d y w il l b e g iv e n a f a ir h e a r in g n o m a t t e r w h a t
h a s b e e n s a i d a b o u t th e m o r a g a i n s t th e m .

Th a t is th e o n e t h in g I

w a n t e d t o s a y. T h e s e c o n d th in g I w a n t t o s a y is t h is . M a j o r G e n e r a l
B o o y s e n fr o m t h e e v id e n c e t h a t h e h a s g i v e n h a s in d i c a t e d th a t t h e r e
a r e a n u m b e r o f c o u r t a p p l ic a t i o n s t h a t h e h a d t o d o . H e h a d to b r i n g
t o c o u r t t o d e a l w i t h v a r i o u s m a t te r s .
ju d g m e n t s .

I n s o m e o f th e m t h e r e a r e

I w o u l d li k e t h e l e g a l t e a m t o s e c u r e n o t o n l y t h e

ju d g m e n t s i n r e g a r d t o t h o s e m a t te r s b u t I w o u l d l ik e th e f u l l s e t o f
p a p e r s in e a c h a p p lic a ti o n s o th a t w e c a n h a v e a f u l l p ic t u r e o f e x a c tl y
20

w h a t h a p p e n e d i n r e g a r d to e a c h m a t te r a n d h o w p e o p l e a g a i n s t w h o m
c e r t a i n a l l e g a ti o n s w e r e m a d e h o w t h e y r e s p o n d e d in a ff i d a v i ts t h a t
w e r e p la c e d b e f o r e t h e c o u r ts .

I w o u l d a ls o li k e t o s e e th e fi n d i n g s

t h a t w e r e m a d e b y t h o s e c o u r ts in r e g a r d to e a c h m a t t e r a n d in t h is
r e g a r d I w o u l d li k e t h e l e g a l t e a m t o p r e p a r e f o r m e f o r l a t e r u s e a li s t
o f a ll fi n d i n g s t h a t h a v e b e e n m a d e b y t h e c o u r t s i n th e v a r io u s

Page 4 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
a p p lic a ti o n s w h e r e t h e r e is n o a p p e a l p e n d i n g . M a y b e t h e y c a n m a k e
t h e m e v e n i f th e r e is a n a p p e a l p e n d i n g b u t a n o t e c a n b e m a d e t h a t in
r e g a r d t o th a t o n e s p e c i f ic o n e s t h e r e i s a n a p p e a l p e n d i n g .

Mr

M c Br i d e a ls o g a v e e v i d e n c e a n d i n d ic a te d t h a t h e h a d t o g o t o c o u r t a
f e w ti m e s w h e r e h e b r o u g h t a p p li c a t io n s .

I w o u ld l ik e t h e s a m e i n

r e g a r d t o h i m . A n d i n r e g a r d t o h i m I t h i n k I m a y h a v e a lr e a d y s a i d t h i s
w h e n h e w a s g iv i n g e v i d e n c e i t is i m p o r t a n t to o b t a i n d o c u m e n ta t io n
t h a t w a s b e fo r e t h e p r o s e c u t o r w h o m a d e t h e d e c i s i o n t o p r o s e c u t e a n d
t h e i n fo r m a ti o n th a t w a s b e f o r e t h e p r o s e c u t o r w h e n t h e c h a r g e s w e r e
10

w i t h d r a w n , t h e c r i m in a l c h a r g e s w e r e w i t h d r a w n . I w a n t t o k n o w a ll o f
that. Thank you.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : N o te d C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. Okay we may proceed.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : C h a ir I a m i n f o r m e d t h a t t h e r e
a r e le g a l r e p r e s e n t a t iv e s a t th is v e n u e w h o h a v e n o t p l a c e d t h e ms e lv e s
o n r e c o r d a s y e t. W i th y o u r i n d u l g e n c e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s l e t th e m p la c e t h e m s e lv e s o n r e c o r d .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f th e r e a r e t h o s e w h o w i s h to d o s o .

20

ADV YUSUF PEER:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n .

fr o m t h e J o h a n n e s b u r g B a r.

M y n a m e i s Yu s u f P e e r

I a p p e a r o n b e h a l f o f M i n i s te r N a th i

M t h e th w a to o b s e r v e t h e c u r r e n t w i tn e s s ’s e v i d e n c e . I a m i n s t r u c t e d b y
M a b u z a A t t o r n e y s a n d th e l e a d c o u n s e l is M r [ in d is ti n c t ] w h o is n o t
p r e s e n t h e r e b u t is p a r t o f t h e t e a m . T h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON : Okay let us proceed.

Page 5 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

C h a ir t o a d d r e s s – t o fi r s tly

a d d r e s s s o m e o f th e q u e r ie s t h a t y o u r a i s e d y e s te r d a y f o r a t t e n t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

W o u ld y o u g r a n t m e t h e

in d u l g e n c e t o d e a l w i t h t h o s e n o w ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s l e t u s d e a l w i t h th e m n o w.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y. J u s t o n e a d m i n is tr a ti v e
o r h o u s e k e e p i n g i s s u e . A l l th e e x h ib i ts t h a t w e r e h a n d e d u p y e s te r d a y
w h ic h s t a r ts a t Ex h ib i t Z [ H ] , [ I ] , [J ] , [ K ] , [L ] h a v e b e e n c o n s o l i d a t e d i n t o
10

a b lu e fo l d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e r e i s o n e a d d i ti o n a l e x h ib i t
that has been added.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d it h a s b e e n m a r k e d Z [ M ] t o
f o ll o w th e s e q u e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

A n d t h a t p a r tic u la r e x h i b i t i s

t h e c a s e th a t C h a i r r e q u e s te d y e s t e r d a y.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

I n r e la t io n to w h o t o o k t h e

d e c is i o n .
CHAIRPERSON : Is a judgment?
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : To w i t h d r a w. Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.

Page 6 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y.

O k a y s o th a t p a r ti c u la r e x h i b i t t h e n w il l b e

marked Exhibit Z[M] – M in brackets. Thank you.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

C h a ir i f I

c o u l d j u s t d ir e c t y o u t o th e r e l e v a n t p a r a g r a p h s o f t h a t c a s e .
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
A D V O C AT E

VERUSHKA

SEPTEMBER :

The

f ir s t

paragraph

is

p a r a g r a p h 5 3 w h i c h is o n p a g e 5 0 , 5 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d to r e a d i n to th e r e c o r d 5 3
reads:
“ T h i s c o u r t is o f t h e v i e w

th a t t h e g r o u n d o f

o p p o s it i o n p r e m is e d o n t h e a ll e g e d f a i lu r e t o e x h a u s t
in t e r n a l r e m e d ie s is m is p l a c e d .
in d i c a t e

that

it

was

not

Fir s tly t h e f a c t s

M o k g a tl e

and

rather

A b r a h a m s w h o to o k t h e d e c i s i o n t o w i t h d r a w t h e
c h a r g e s p r e f e r r e d a g a in s t J i b a . ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h a t is t h e o n e w h e r e M a j o r G e n e r a l B o o y s e n w a s
s a y in g t h r e e j u d g e s m a d e a fi n d i n g s p e c i f ic a ll y th a t M r A b r a h a m s w a s
20

t h e o n e w h o h a d m a d e t h e d e c is i o n d e s p i t e t h e fa c t th a t h e h a d
d e p o s e d t o a n a ff i d a v i t s a y i n g h e w a s n o t t h e o n e w h o m a d e th e
d e c is i o n .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e n e x t r e l e v a n t p a r a g r a p h i t

Page 7 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
is a t p a g e 5 2 o f t h e s a m e b u n d le .
CHAIRPERSON :

I a m s o r r y d o w e k n o w w h e t h e r t h i s is o n a p p e a l o r

n o t ? Yo u d o n o t k n o w ?
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I a m – I d o n o t b e li e v e i t i s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u c a n c h e c k l a te r o n ?
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n c h e c k la t e r o n . O k a y.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o t h e n e x t r e le v a n t p a r a g r a p h
w h ic h i s s til l p a r t o f t h e m a j o r i t y j u d g m e n t is a t p a g e 5 2 .
10

CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d i t is p a r a g r a p h 5 9 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I t r e a d s :
“ H a v i n g r e g a r d to w h a t is s t a t e d a b o v e i t is th e
fi n d i n g o f t h is c o u r t t h a t fir s t ly t h e d e c i s i o n t o
withdraw

charges

against

J ib a

was

ta k e n

by

A b r a h a m s o n r e c o m m e n d a ti o n b y M o g a tl e . ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :
20

“ Se c o n d ly t h e r e a s o n s a d v a n c e d f o r th e w i t h d r a w a l
of charges against Jiba are based on the material
e r r o r o f l a w w h ic h f a l ls s h o r t o f t h e le g a l i t y e x p e c t e d
in a r a t io n a l d e c i s i o n . ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

Page 8 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
“ An d t h ir d l y t h e d e f e n c e t h a t Fr e e d o m U n d e r L a w h a s
n o t e x h a u s te d t h e i n t e r n a l r e m e d i e s b y s e e k in g a
r e v ie w o f t h e d e c is i o n t o p r o s e c u t e h a s n o m e r i t .”
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e l a s t p a r a g r a p h w h ic h i s o f
r e l e v a n c e t o i s p a r t o f t h e d i s s e n t i n g ju d g m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h e r e i t is – C h a ir c a n fi n d o n
page 80 at paragraph 43.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :
read?

A n d w i t h y o u r le a v e i f I m a y

I t is u n d e r t h e h e a d i n g “ T h e d e c i s io n to w i t h d r a w a g a i n s t M s

J ib a .”
“ Bo t h M r A b r a h a ms a n d Mr M o g a tl e s a y in t h e ir a ffi d a v i ts t h a t i t w a s Mr
M o g a t l e a n d n o t M r A b r a h a ms w h o t o o k t h e d e c i s i o n .

Mr Abrahams

w i t h t h e w o r d i n g o f S e c ti o n 2 2 ( 2 ) C o f th e N PA A c t in m i n d s a y s t h a t
h e d id n o t t a k e t h e d e c i s i o n f o r t h e v e r y r e a s o n t h a t a f te r Mr M o g a tl e
h a d t a k e n t h e d e c is i o n h e , Mr A b r a h a m s w o u ld b e a b le t o r e v i e w t h e
d e c is i o n o f M r M o g a t l e . M r A b r a h a ms d o e s n o t s a y w h a t h e w o u l d h a v e
20

d o n e h a d Mr M o g a tl e b e e n i n f a v o u r o f c o n ti n u i n g t h e p r o s e c u ti o n o f M s
J ib a .

Mr A b r a h a m s w a s n o t b o u n d b y t h e v i e w o f Mr M o g a tl e .

Mr

A b r a h a m s c o u l d h a d h e s o d e t e r m i n e d c o n ti n u e d w i t h t h e p r o s e c u ti o n .
What

Mr

M o g a tl e

had

sent

to

Mr

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n r a t h e r t h a n a d e c i s i o n .

Abrahams

merely

a

Section 22 (2) C does not

p r o v i d e f o r t h e r e v i e w o f a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n .

Page 9 of 170

was

In my view the decision

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
w a s t a k e n b y M r A b r a h a ms .

I m a k e n o a d v e r s e c r e d ib il i ty f in d in g

a g a in s t e i th e r M r A b r a h a m s o r M r M o g a t le .

I simply prefer my

in t e r p r e t a ti o n o f th e f a c ts a n d th e l a w t o t h e ir s . T h is f i n d in g m a k e s i t
u n n e c e s s a r y f o r m e t o c o n s i d e r t h e l a c k o f a u t h o r i ty t o d e l e g a t e p o i n t .”
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r t h e m a j o r i t y s a y s a n y t h i n g
a l o n g t h e li n e s t h a t th e y a r e n o t m a k i n g a n y c r e d i b il it y fi n d i n g a s w e l l
in t h e m a jo r i ty ju d g m e n t o r i s t h a t s o m e t h i n g y o u a r e n o t s u r e a b o u t?
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I d o n o t s p e c i fic a lly r e c a ll th a t
b u t I a m h a p p y to d o u b l e c h e c k a n d r e v e r t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

C h a ir s o r r y f o r

in t e r r u p t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

T h e r e a r e c r e d i b i li ty

fi n d i n g s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d k n o w th is j u d g m e n t q u i t e w e ll .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : E x a c t ly C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A n d p a r a g r a p h s 5 5 to
20

58.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR

GENERAL

JOHAN

WESSEL

BOOYSEN :

They

are

not

c r e d i b ili t y f in d in g s a g a in s t b o th A d v o c a t e S h a u n A b r a h a m s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR

GENERAL

JOHAN

WESSEL

BOOYSEN :

Page 10 of 170

And

A d v o c a te

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
M a r s h a ll M o g a t le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t i s p a r a g r a p h s 5 5 t o 5 8 ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you very much.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL B OOYSEN :

I n t h e m a j o r it y

ju d g m e n t C h a ir.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : T h a n k y o u th a t is v e r y
h e l p f u l.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th a n k y o u G e n e r a l B o o y s e n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d o y o u k n o w w h e th e r i t i s o n a p p e a l ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir I th in k t h e r e –
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w l o n g a g o w a s i t m a y b e f ir s t ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

C h a ir I w il l h a v e t o

c h e c k b u t w h a t I d o r e c a l l C h a ir th a t th e r e w a s a n a p p e a l b y t h e N PA
a n d a ls o b y I t h i n k A d v o c a t e A b r a h a ms .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : I am not too sure.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w f a r th a t p r o c e s s i s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :
20

O n e o f th e p a r t ie s

w i t h d r e w b u t I t h in k t h e r e c o u ld b e a n a p p e a l s ti ll p e n d i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. O k a y n o t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . Ye s t h a n k
you.

W e ll u n f o r tu n a te ly I w a s l o o k i n g – I w a s tr y i n g to s e e w h e n

ju d g m e n t w a s h a n d e d d o w n – w h e n t h e ju d g m e n t w a s h a n d e d d o w n .
U n f o r t u n a t e ly th e o n l y d a te g iv e n t h e r e is t h e d a t e w h e n – w e ll t h e r e is
3 0 a n d 3 1 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 7 a s th e d a te s w h e n t h e m a t t e r w a s h e a r d a n d

Page 11 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
t h e n a t th e t o p o f p a g e 3 2 t h e r e is a d a t e f o r t h e r e v is i o n o f t h e
ju d g m e n t b e in g 2 1 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 7 .

S o w i ll – s o i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n

h a n d e d d o w n s o m e ti m e s t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f 2 0 1 7 .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A c c o r d i n g t o m y r e s e a r c h .
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

T h i s w a s s p e c i fi c a lly o n t h e

1 2 t h w e ll it r e f e r e n c e d th e d a t e o f t h e 1 2 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 7 .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : B u t i t is c e r t a i n l y n o t r e f l e c te d
in h e r e s o I s t a n d to b e c o r r e c te d .
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y a lr ig h t .

I th i n k m a y b e t h e – t h e le g a l t e a m

s h o u l d j u s t c h e c k w h e th e r t h e r e i s s ti ll a n a p p e a l p e n d i n g in r e g a r d t o
the matters.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : W ill d o C h a ir. I f t h a t d is p o s e s
o f t h a t q u e r y th e n e x t q u e r y r e l a te s t o th e a p p o i n t m e n ts .
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :
20

T h e N a ti o n a l P r o s e c u t in g –

N a t io n a l P r o s e c u t in g A u th o r i ti e s A c t …
CHAIRPERSON : That is what appointment – that one?
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

C h a ir a q u e r y w a s r a i s e d

y e s t e r d a y a s t o w h o i s a u th o r is e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t o a p p o in t a n a c t in g D P P ?
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a ir.

Page 12 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , j a .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

I h a v e a c o p y o f t h e N a ti o n a l

P r o s e c u t in g A u t h o r it y A c t s h o u l d y o u s o w i s h .
CHAIRPERSON : Well if you…
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : B u t I a m h a p p y t o j u s t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f y o u j u s t t e ll m e w h a t i t s a y s t h a t is e n o u g h .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

C h a p te r 3 i n p a r t ic u l a r d e a l s

w i t h th e a p p o i n t m e n ts o f v a r i o u s m e m b e r s w i t h i n t h e N D P P – w i t h i n th e
P r o s e c u t in g A u t h o r it y.
10

CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
A D V O C AT E

VERUSHKA

SEPTEMB ER:

And

in

relation

to

the

a p p o i n t m e n t o f D e p u ty D ir e c t o r s i t s a y s t h a t t h e M i n is t e r m a y a p o l o g i e s
it is S e c ti o n 1 5 o f t h e A c t.
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

I t s a y s t h a t t h e M in is t e r m a y

s u b j e c t t o t h e l a w s g o v e r n i n g t h e p u b l ic s e r v ic e i n S e c t i o n 1 6 ( 4 ) a n d
a ft e r c o n s u l t a ti o n w i th t h e N a ti o n a l D ir e c t o r a p p o i n t a D e p u ty D ir e c t o r
o f P u b lic P r o s e c u t i o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d t h a t n o t b e a n a ti o n a l o f – p e r s o n a s o p p o s e d
20

t o a p r o v i n c i a l D P P ? I a m n o t s u r e y o u k n o w t h e s e – t h e s tr u c t u r e o f
t h e N PA c a n b e c o n fu s i n g .

S o w e a r e lo o k i n g f o r w h o – w h o h a s t h e

p o w e r t o a p p o i n t a n a c ti n g D P P – P r o v i n c ia l D P P a n d I d o n o t e v e n
t h i n k it is c a ll e d Pr o v in c i a l D P P.

I t is

– i t i s th e P r o v i n c ia l

r e p r e s e n t a tiv e o f t h e N D P P.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

Page 13 of 170

C h a ir i f I m a y t h e r e a r e

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
e s s e n ti a l ly – th is p a r ti c u la r A c t g o v e r n s t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f th r e e , fo u r
p o s i ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

Th e f ir s t is th e n a ti o n a l

d ir e c t o r.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

T h a t is u n d e r S e c ti o n 1 0 .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :
10

T h e s e c o n d is t h e d e p u t y

n a t io n a l d ir e c t o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

W h i c h is S e c t io n 11 .

CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e t h ir d is t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f
d ir e c t o r s a n d a c ti n g d ir e c t o r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th a t i s S e c t io n 1 3 . S e c ti o n 1 5
as I have…
CHAIRPERSON :
20

A n d w h o d o e s i t s a y – t h a t is w h e r e i t s a y s t h e

M i n is t e r ?
A D V O C AT E

VERUSHKA

SEPTEMBER :

For

the

d ir e c t o r s a n d a c ti n g d ir e c t o r s .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th e Pr e s id e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h it s a y s th e Pr e s i d e n t .

Page 14 of 170

a p p o in t m e n t

of

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

A f t e r c o n s u lt a ti o n w i t h t h e

M i n is t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t h e n a ti o n a l d ir e c t o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : M a y a p p o i n t a d ir e c t o r o f p u b l ic
p r o s e c u t i o n s i n r e s p e c t o f t h e o ff ic e o f p r o s e c u ti n g a u t h o r i ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. O k a y. A lr ig h t .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :
10

A n d th e la s t d e a ls w i t h th e

a p p o i n t m e n t o f p r o s e c u t o r s g e n e r a l ly a t S e c t io n 1 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a n k y o u . B u t is th a t n o t a l i tt l e s t r a n g e ?
A p r o v is i o n th a t y o u r e a d e a r l ie r o n s a id t h e M i n is t e r m a y a p p o in t a n d I
t h o u g h t y o u w e r e ta lk in g a b o u t w h a t a d e p u ty d ir e c t o r …
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

T h a t w a s th e d e p u ty d ir e c t o r

C h a ir. W h e r e a s t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f d ir e c t o r s a n d a c t in g d ir e c t o r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h is th e Pr e s i d e n t .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I s t h e P r e s i d e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :
20

The last query that we were

a b l e t o d e a l w i t h r e l a te s t o …
CHAIRPERSON :

S o A d v o c a t e N o k o w o u l d h a v e th e r e f o r e h a v e b e e n

a p p o i n t e d b y th e P r e s i d e n t i n te r ms o f t h a t ?
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : M y u n d e r s t a n d in g i s s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y a lr i g h t a n d l a t e r o n y o u c a n j u s t c h e c k a n d
we can correct – we can c orrect whatever we have said if we have

Page 15 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
m is u n d e r s t o o d w h o a p p o in ts w h o . T h a t is fi n e .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I f I c o u l d j u s t th e n s u m m a r is e .
A n a t io n a l d ir e c t o r, a d e p u ty n a t io n a l d ir e c t o r a n d d ir e c t o r s a n d a c ti n g
d ir e c t o r s a r e a ll a p p o i n t e d b y t h e P r e s i d e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

B e i t i n d e p e n d e n t ly o r i n

c o n s u l t a ti o n w i t h …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th e M in is t e r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d o t h e r s ta k e h o l d e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e n e x t q u e r y th a t w a s r a i s e d
r e l a t e s to t h e in t e r v i e w o f A d v o c a t e N o k o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

T h a n k f u l ly w e w e r e a b le t o

e x tr a c t th e r e l e v a n t e x c e r p t o f t h e in t e r v i e w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h ic h r e l a t e s to h e r r e s p o n s e s
20

o n t h e B o o y s e n m a t t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I t is i n f a c t r e a d y a n d a v a i la b le
t o b e v i e w e d s h o u l d y o u s o w is h ? I t i s t o o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o r n o w e d o n o t n e e d t o v ie w i t a s i f w e h a v e g o t
tr a n s c r ip t s t h a t w o u l d b e e n o u g h . Yo u d o n o t h a v e a tr a n s c r ip t y o u ju s t

Page 16 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
have the…
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

J u s t th e c li p a n d t h e r e l e v a n t

c li p . .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I s t w o m i n u t e s .
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t i f y o u h a v e w a t c h e d i t y o u c a n ju s t c o n fi r m

w h e t h e r – w h a t th e w i t n e s s s a i d i s a c t u a lly w h a t h a p p e n e d .

But

o th e r w i s e a tr a n s c r i p t c a n b e m a d e l a t e r o n a n d m a d e a v a i la b l e .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :
10

U n fo r t u n a t e l y a t r a n s c r i p t w a s

– is n o t a v a i l a b le a t y e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o th a t is f in e .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : B u t h a v i n g lo o k e d a t i t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n d u e c o u r s e t h e n i t is fi n e .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : H a v i n g l o o k e d a t th e v i d e o s h e
d o e s m e n ti o n o n a t le a s t t h r e e o c c a s i o n s .
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th a t B o o y s e n ’s m a t t e r o r o t h e r
p r o m in e n t m a t t e r s , h i g h p r o fi le m a t t e r s i n p a r t ic u l a r w e r e in f a c t o n th e
c o u r t r o ll w h e n s h e w a s t h e r e .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n s h e w a s a p p o i n t e d a s a c ti n g d ir e c t o r o f p u b l ic
prosecutions?
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . J u s t a r r a n g e m e n ts m u s t b e m a d e f o r u s
t o j u s t g e t a t r a n s c r i p t o f t h a t r e le v a n t p a r t . W e d o n o t n e e d to h a v e a
tr a n s c r ip t o f t h e w h o l e i n te r v i e w.

Page 17 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I n d e e d C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja and it need not be now we can get it in due

course.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A s i t p l e a s e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :
t h o s e a r e s t ill b e i n g a t t e n d e d t o .

T h e r e a r e o t h e r m a t te r s b u t

Can I then suggest that we r esume

w h e r e w e le f t y e s t e r d a y G e n e r a l B o o y s e n ? A n d th a t is o n p a g e 4 1 o f
Exhibit Z[A]. So yesterday General Booysen you gave evidence about
10

v a r io u s p r o s e c u to r s w h o a r e – w h o s e n a m e s i n f a c t p o p u l a t e s li d e th a t
– s li d e 4 w h ic h is – fo r m s p a r t o f t h e d i a g r a m s b u n d le .

A n d th e l a s t

prosecutor that you gave evidence in regard to was Advocate Shaun
Abrahams.

Is t h e r e a n y t h i n g t h a t y o u w i s h t o a d d fo ll o w i n g o n t h e

e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u g a v e y e s t e r d a y i n r e l a ti o n t o h i m i n v ie w o f t h e
ju d g m e n t t h a t h a s n o w b e e n p r e s e n t e d t o t h e C h a ir ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

C h a ir n o t r e a l ly e x c e p t t h a t t h e d i a g r a m t h a t w a s s h o w n y e s te r d a y
p e r t a in s t o t h e A m i g o c a s e , th e P a n d a y m a t te r, t h e l o o t in g o f t h e S e c r e t
S e r v ic e s a c c o u n t a n d t h e n t h e C a to M a n o r m a t te r.
20

I d i d m e n t io n t h a t

y e s t e r d a y b u t I w o u ld j u s t l ik e to r e i te r a t e it . Th e s e s a m e p r o s e c u t o r s
in v a r i a b ly w e r e a l s o in v o lv e d i n t h e p r o s e c u ti o n o f m e m b e r s fr o m S A R S
a n d a ls o C o l o n e l S i b i y a a n d D r a m a t i n t h is s o c a l le d r e n d it i o n s a g a .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

O k a y.

F o l lo w in g o n f r o m t h e

ju d g m e n t t h a t h a s b e e n h a n d e d u p i n y o u r v ie w w h a t o u g h t t o h a v e
b e e n t h e c o n s e q u e n c e s i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e p r o s e c u ti o n o f o r r a t h e r th e

Page 18 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
c h a r g e s a g a i n s t A d v o c a t e N o m g c o b o J ib a ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOO YSEN :

C h a ir a l th o u g h t h e r e

is a m a j o r i ty a n d a m i n o r i ty j u d g m e n t b u t i n t h e e n d a l l t h r e e t h e j u d g e s
set aside the withdrawal of charges by Advocate Abrahams. Advocate
J ib a h a d a lr e a d y a p p e a r e d i n c o u r t . T h e w i t h d r a w a l t h e n w a s s e t a s id e
b y a fu ll b e n c h o f t h e h i g h c o u r t .

S o m y u n d e r s t a n d in g t h e n i s t h e y

s h o u l d g o b a c k t o w h e r e t h e y – th e y w e r e t h a t t h e m a t te r s h o u l d b e
p l a c e d b a c k o n t h e r o l l . My u n d e r s t a n d in g is t h a t A d v o c a te A b r a h a m s
t h e n s e n t t h e d o c k e t t o A d v o c a t e S m i t h fr o m N o r t h W e s t .
10

W h e th e r

A d v o c a t e S m i t h h a d t h e a u t h o r i t y o r t h e j u r i s d ic ti o n t o r e v i e w w h a t
A d v o c a t e A b r a h a m s – A d v o c a t e F e r r e ir a a n d Va n E e r d e n h a s a lr e a d y
d e c i d e d u p o n t h a t is a n o p e n q u e s t io n . B u t t o m e i t i s a l m o s t a k i n t o
c o n te m p t o f c o u r t f o r t h e c o u r t t o m a k e a f in d i n g a n d th e n f o r A d v o c a t e
A b r a h a m s n o t to p l a c e i t b a c k o n th e r o le b u t to s e n d i t t o a n o th e r
a d v o c a t e to r e v i e w t h e m a t t e r.
CHAIRPERSON : Do you know who – or was it Mr Gerrie Nel who was –
w h o h a d b e e n a p p o i n t e d t o p r o s e c u t e in t h e m a t t e r o r i g in a l ly ?

Who

h a d b e e n t h e p r o s e c u t o r.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
20

No.

N o C h a ir it w a s

A d v o c a t e Fe r r e ir a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A n d Va n E e d e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s , t h e y w e r e – t h e y w e r e th e p r o s e c u t o r s o r
t h e y w e r e h a n d li n g i t ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : They were handling it.

Page 19 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
T h e y w e r e a p p o i n te d b y A d v o c a t e N x a s a n a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Th e y

were

both

p r o s e c u t i n g in t h e m a t t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

A d v o c a te J i b a

had

a lr e a d y a p p e a r e d i n c o u r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
10

prepped

me.

We

had

a lr e a d y

done

our

Th e y

had

c o n s u l ta t io n s

a lr e a d y
when

A d v o c a t e A b r a h a ms w i t h d r e w t h e c h a r g e s .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

S o – s o o n c e t h e c o u r t h a d s e t a s id e t h e

d e c is i o n to w i th d r a w t h e c h a r g e s t h e m a t t e r s h o u l d h a v e b e e n p u r s u e d .
T h a t is p r o s e c u t io n a n d o n e w o u ld h a v e e x p e c t e d t h a t t h e s a m e
p r o s e c u t o r s w h o h a d b e e n p r o s e c u t i n g t h e m a t te r w o u ld c o n t in u e
u n l e s s t h e r e w a s s o m e v a l id r e a s o n t o c h a n g e th e m .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Indeed Chair what I –
w h a t I a l s o r e a d i n t h e j u d g m e n t i s th a t – a n d I f in d it q u i t e s tr a n g e –
t h a t A d v o c a t e A b r a h a m s b e tw e e n h i m a n d A d v o c a t e M o k g a tl e h a d
20

r e v ie w e d

the

matter

w it h o u t

A d v o c a te J i b a

having

made

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : S o i t w a s a n i n it i a t iv e
b y A d v o c a t e A b r a h a m s w i th o u t r e p r e s e n ta t io n s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.

Page 20 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : I do not know whether
s h e s u b s e q u e n tl y m a d e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

A n d i n – a n d th a t is

t h e r e a s o n w h y i t w a s s e n t to A d v o c a t e S m it .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

If not then I – well I

w o u ld t h e n s a y th e c a s e s h o u ld h a v e b e e n p l a c e d b a c k o n t h e – o n th e
c o u r t r o ll .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Without having.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

W i t h o u t s e n d in g i t t o

a n o t h e r a l m o s t li k e s e c o n d g u e s s i n g o r – it a l m o s t lik e fo r u m s h o p p i n g
C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

To fi n d a p r o s e c u t o r

w h o w i ll e v e n t u a l ly.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
20

M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : ( In d i s ti n c t) th e m a t t e r.
CHAIRPERSON :

Hm.

W e ll t h e le g a l t e a m s h o u l d l o o k i n to t h a t .

All

t h e s e m a t t e r s t h a t w e – th a t a r e c o m in g u p w e n e e d to k n o w e x a c tl y
w h a t h a p p e n e d , w h a t a r e t h e f a c ts a n d s o o n a n d s o o n a n d i t is
i m p o r t a n t t o g e t a ll th e f a c t s b e c a u s e w i t h r e g a r d t o p r o s e c u t io n y o u
m a y h a v e a c a s e w h e r e s o m e b o d y m a k e s in g o o d fa i th a n e r r o r o f la w

Page 21 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
a n d d o e s s o m e th in g t h a t m a y b e s e e n a s n o t r i g h t b u t y o u m a y h a v e a
c a s e w h e r e i t is n o t a n e r r o r o f l a w.

I t i s s o m e t h i n g s e r io u s a n d

t h e r e f o r e i t b e c o m e s v e r y i m p o r t a n t t o g e t t h e fa c t s r ig h t . W h a t e x a c t ly
h a p p e n e d , w h o d i d w h a t, w h a t w a s b e fo r e h i m o r h e r b e f o r e s h e m a d e
t h a t d e c is i o n . O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I f w e c a n n o w th e n t u r n to p a r a g r a p h
1 3 6 w h ic h is o n p a g e 4 1 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it ?

Yo u n o w t a l k a b o u t o t h e r

p r o s e c u t o r s . W h a t d o y o u m e a n b y o t h e r p r o s e c u to r s ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir w h e n th is w h o l e
10

in v e s t i g a t io n – i f I c a n s a y th e C a t o M a n o r i n v e s ti g a t i o n - s t a r t e d i t w a s
a m a z in g h o w m a n y r e s o u r c e s w a s u t il is e d i n t h a t i n v e s ti g a ti o n . I t h in k
a t o n e s ta g e t h e y h a d a b o u t n i n e p r o s e c u to r s c a m p i n g i n D u r b a n i n a
h o t e l o n t h e b e a c h fr o n t. I w o u l d s a y fo r m o r e t h a n a y e a r. E v e r y t i m e
w e w o u l d g o to c o u r t th e r e w a s a n e n to u r a g e o f p r o s e c u t o r s - fi v e t o s ix
sometimes seven prosecutors but on average at least four prosecutors
and there had been 20 remands. 17 or 16 of them i n the High Court.
T h e p r o s e c u to r s k n e w.
CHAIRPERSON :

L ik e in o n e m a t t e r o r t h e y w e r e th e r e – t h e y w e r e

c o v e r in g a n u m b e r o f m a t t e r s th e s a m e p r o s e c u to r s o r it w a s a t e a m –
20

a l a r g e t e a m o f p r o s e c u to r s i n r e g a r d t o e a c h m a t te r ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

N o C h a ir.

m a t t e r i n w h ic h my s e l f a n d C a to M a n o r w e r e p r o s e c u te d .

In th e
T h e le a d

p r o s e c u t o r - A d v o c a t e M a e m a – k n e w t h e m a t te r w a s n o t g o i n g t o
p r o c e e d a n d i n s p i te o f t h a t t h e y w o u l d e v e r y ti m e fl y d o w n th e d a y
b e f o r e b o o k – c h e c k i n to a h o t e l a n u m b e r o f p r o s e c u t o r s . I w o u l d e v e n

Page 22 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
– I w o u l d e v e n g o a s f a r to s a y t h e y c o u l d h a v e u s e d a l o c a l p r o s e c u t o r
t o h a v e t h e m a t t e r r e m a n d e d b e c a u s e i t i s – it w a s li k e a – a ll t h o s e
a p p e a r a n c e s w e r e lik e t h r e e / f o u r m i n u t e s a n d m o s t o f th e d is c u s s i o n s
t o o k p l a c e i n c h a m b e r s a n d w e w o u ld g o in t o c o u r t a n d t h e a c tu a l
p r o c e e d i n g s w o u ld b e t w o o r t h r e e m i n u t e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

And there were a

n u m b e r o f a d v o c a t e s i n v o l v e d i n t h is – i n t h e p r o s e c u t io n o f C a to
Manor
10

and

I

do

m e n ti o n

some

–

some

of

th e m

here

l ik e

A d v o c a t e J J M lo t s h w a w h o i n c i d e n ta ll y a l s o h a p p e n s t o b e i n v o lv e d in
o th e r

p r o s e c u ti o n s

of

Advocate Dawood Adams.

p e o p le

f i g h t in g

p r o s e c u ti o n .

There

is

N o w C h a ir A d v o c a te D a w o o d A d a ms - t h e r e

h a d b e e n a n i n v e s ti g a ti o n a g a i n s t A d v o c a t e D a w o o d A d a m s b y t h e S S U
p r e v i o u s ly w h e r e h e w a s c h a r g e d w i t h t h e W i tn e s s P r o t e c ti o n P r o g r a m
a n d i t e m e r g e d t h a t w h i le h e w a s i n c h a r g e o f th e p r o g r a m h e
a p p r o p r i a t e d f u n d s f r o m t h e p r o g r a m f o r h is o w n p e r s o n a l b e n e f it . H e
h a d b o o k e d – I t h i n k i t w a s t w o a p a r t m e n ts in t h e b e a c h fr o n t – t h e
Wa t e r fr o n t a r e a i n C a p e To w n w h e r e h is c h il d r e n s t a y e d w h il e t h e y
w e r e s t u d y in g a t u n iv e r s i ty a n d t h e o th e r o n e w a s u s e d b y h i m s e l f a n d
20

fr i e n d s . W h e n h e w a s e v e n t u a l ly c a u g h t o u t a f te r t h is i n v e s t ig a t i o n - I
t h i n k th e in v e s t i g a t io n w a s d o n e b y M r W i ll ie H o f m e y r – c e r ta i n
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s w e r e m a d e f o r d is c i p l in a r y s t e p s .

A s fa r a s I k n o w

n o t h i n g w a s d o n e a b o u t th a t fo r w h a t e v e r r e a s o n – t h e r e m i g h t h a v e
b e e n v a li d r e a s o n s b u t w h a t c o n c e r n s m e i s t h e r e y o u h a v e a n
a d v o c a t e fr o m t h e N a t i o n a l P r o s e c u ti n g A u t h o r i ty s t e a li n g m o n e y. T h a t

Page 23 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
is w h a t i t i s a n d h e d o e s n o t e v e n g e t a s la p . I k n o w – I k n o w a t t h e
ti m e h e w a s s u s p e n d e d fo r a w h i le – I t h i n k – b u t n o c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s
w e r e p r e s s e d a g a in s t h i m .

Ye t A d v o c a t e A b r a h a ms u s e s t h e s a m e -

A d v o c a t e D a w o o d A d a m s s e n d s h i m t o G r e e c e t o g o a n d f in d e v id e n c e
a g a in s t m e a n d th a t is w h a t I fi n d s o a b h o r r e n t .

That people from a

N a t io n a l P r o s e c u ti n g A u t h o r i t y th e r e is p r i m a fa c i e e v id e n c e th a t t h e y
h a v e c o m m i t t e d a s e r i o u s c r i m i n a l o ffe n c e .

They are being used to

in v e s t i g a t e

c o r r u p ti o n .

people

who

are

i n v e s ti g a t in g

The

few

B e f o r e y o u g o to – t o t h o s e j u s t s o m e c l a r i ty.

The

p r o s e c u t o r s I h a v e m e n t io n e d n o w C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON :

la r g e t e a m o f p r o s e c u t o r s t h a t y o u t a l k a b o u t th a t w o u l d b e b r o u g h t w o u ld c o m e t o D u r b a n f o r t h e C a t o M a n o r m a tt e r e v e n w h e n e v e r y o n e
k n e w th e y w o u l d b e a p o s t p o n e m e n t – w o u l d t h o s e b e f r o m H e a d
O ff ic e ?

I s th a t r ig h t o r w o u ld i t b e a m ix o f lo c a l a n d H e a d O ff ic e

prosecutors?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a ir t h e r e w e r e n o

lo c a l p r o s e c u t o r s .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
20

It

is

always

A d v o c a t e M a e m a , R a y m o n d M a t h e n j w a , J J M l o ts h w a a n d a f e w o th e r s
a n d a s fa r a s I a m c o n c e r n e d th e y w e r e w a s t in g ta x p a y e r s ’ m o n e y .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
people down.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.

Page 24 of 170

Fl y i n g

fiv e

to

s ix

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : From Johannesburg to
– to Pretoria.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : K n o w in g t h e c a s e w a s
going to be remanded.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h e c k i n to a h o te l o n
t h e b e a c h fr o n t .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
10

M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A n d th e n fl y b a c k th e
f o ll o w i n g d a y.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d h o w o f te n d i d t h i s h a p p e n – i f y o u a r e a b le t o

t e ll ? I m e a n I k n o w y o u t a l k e d .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : About 20 or 19.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Chair

in

th e

b e g in n i n g .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : P o s t p o n e m e n ts .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I n th e b e g in n i n g i n th e
H i g h C o u r t a p p e a r a n c e s i t w a s l ik e a c ir c u s a t th e c o u r t .

They would

h a v e c a s p e r s s t a n d i n g o u ts id e , s n ip e r s o n t h e r o o f , p e r s o n a l b o d y
p r o t e c t io n a n d I t h i n k i t w a s h e r e b y a b o u t t h e 8 t h o r t h e 9 t h a p p e a r a n c e
a t t h e H i g h C o u r t t h a t I c o m m e n t e d in t h e m e d i a t h a t t h e y a r e w a s ti n g

Page 25 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
t a x p a y e r s ’ m o n e y b y fl y i n g t h is w h o l e e n to u r a g e d o w n j u s t to d o a
r e m a n d a n d a f t e r t h a t c o m m e n t o f m in e t h e fi g u r e s t a p e r e d d o w n b u t i n
t h e l a s t c o u p l e a p p e a r a n c e s t h e r e w o u l d a t le a s t b e – a t l e a s t t w o o r
three

advocates

w it h

P r o s e c u t in g A u t h o r i ty.

–

with other

personnel from the

N a t io n a l

W h e t h e r t h e y w e r e p r o te c t o r s o r w h e t h e r t h e y

w e r e m e d ia li a i s o n o ff ic e r s I d o n o t k n o w, b u t o n a v e r a g e t h e la s t
c o u p l e t h e r e w e r e t o b e a b o u t f o u r to fi v e b u t p r i o r t o m y c o m p l a i n t
t h e r e w e r e s o m e t i m e s b e u p t o fi v e t o s i x p r o s e c u t o r s w h o fl y d o w n –
up and down just to come and do a remand.
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

General Booysen were you involved

in t h e m a t t e r t h a t y o u a l lu d e d t o i n r e la t io n t o A d v o c a t e D a w o o d A d a ms
a s i n w e r e y o u p a r t o f t h e in v e s ti g a t io n t e a m a t a ll ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

N o C h a ir.

I had

n o t h i n g t o d o w i th t h e in v e s t i g a t io n a g a i n s t A d v o c a te D a w o o d . I t c a m e
t o m y k n o w l e d g e a n d a t te n t i o n w h e r e a s h e w a s s e n t t o G r e e c e to fi n d
e v i d e n c e a g a i n s t m e o b v io u s ly h a v i n g a n in v e s t i g a t o r b a c k g r o u n d t h e n
y o u s t a r t t o in v e s t i g a t e t h e p e o p l e w h o – w h o a r e a g a i n s t y o u a n d I
e s t a b li s h e d t h a t h e – h e h i m s e l f w a s a s u b j e c t o f a c r i m i n a l – w e ll n o t
o f a c r i m i n a l in v e s t i g a t io n a n d i t is c l e a r fr o m t h a t r e p o r t b y
20

A d v o c a t e W i ll ie H o f m e y r

that

money

was

a p p r o p r i a te d

by

A d v o c a t e D a w o o d w h i c h in m y v i e w is – e i t h e r c o n s t it u t e s f r a u d o r t h e f t
but nothing happens to him.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: So.
CHAIRPERSON :

B o t h i n t e r m s o f c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s a n d i n te r n a l

d is c i p l i n a r y m a t te r s n o th i n g h a p p e n e d a s f a r a s y o u k n o w ?

Page 26 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a ir a s fa r a s I –

w e ll w h a t I h a v e h e a r d w i th r e g a r d s t o t h e d is c i p l in a r y m a tt e r s o r t h e
d is c i p l i n a r y m a tt e r I th in k t h e p e r io d d u r in g w h ic h t h e y h a d to t a k e
s t e p s h a d l a p s e d . T h a t i s my u n d e r s ta n d i n g . S o w h e t h e r i t w a s d o n e
o n p u r p o s e o r n o t I c a n n o t c o m m e n t o n t h a t b u t t h e ft a n d fr a u d
p r e s c r i b e s a ft e r 2 0 y e a r s n o t lik e i n a d is c ip li n a r y m a t te r t h a t i t
p r e s c r i b e s in 6 0 d a y s . S o I – I c a n n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h y n o th e f t c h a r g e s
o r fr a u d c h a r g e s w e r e p r e fe r r e d a g a in s t A d v o c a t e A d a m s .
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I f w e c o u l d th e n tu r n t o p a g e 4 2

w h e r e y o u d e a l w i t h p r o s e c u t o r s w h o r e s i g n e d d u e to i n t e r f e r e n c e a n d
in p a r tic u la r y o u m e n t io n c e r t a i n p r o s e c u t o r s w h o i n y o u r v i e w r e s ig n e d
f o r t h a t r e a s o n . C a n y o u p l e a s e e x p l a in t o th e C h a ir i n t h a t r e g a r d ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a ir I w i ll s t a r t w i t h

Advocate Bheki Mnyathi who personally told me at the High Court in
D u r b a n t h a t b e c a u s e o f w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g t o h i m – a s C h a ir w o u l d
recall

he

was

the

prosecutor

who

was

going

to

prosecute

To s h a n P a n d a y a n d C o l o n e l N a v in M a d h o e f o r th e a t t e m p t t o b r ib e m e .
H e is t h e o n e w h o r e c e i v e d t h e l e t t e r fr o m A d v o c a te M r w e b i e s s e n t ia ll y
20

q u e r y i n g th e p r o s e c u ti o n a n d h e t h e n p e n n e d a l e g a l o p i n i o n a n d
in d i c a t e d t h a t h e w a s g o in g t o i n d ic t C o l o n e l M a d h o e in th e H ig h C o u r t
f o r c o r r u p ti o n a n d h e t o l d m e p e r s o n a ll y t h a t h is s t a n c e o n t h e m a t t e r
h a d c a u s e d h i m t o b e o v e r l o o k e d f o r p r o m o ti o n a n d h e i n t e n d e d
r e s ig n in g

w h ic h

he

in

the

end

did.

I

know

that

A d v o c a t e Si m p h iw e M l o ts h w a b e c a u s e o f w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d t o h i m i n

Page 27 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
K Z N h e a l s o r e s i g n e d fr o m t h e N PA . B o t h t h o s e a d v o c a t e s a r e n o w i n
private

p r a c tic e .

Then

t here

A d v o c a t e G ly n n i s B r e y t e n b a c h .

is

A d v o c a te G e r r i e N e l

and

B o t h - i n th e i n s t a n c e s th a t I h a v e

t e s ti fi e d a b o u t w e r e b o t h i n v o lv e d i n a n u m b e r o f th o s e p r o s e c u ti o n s .
G e r r ie N e l w a s in v o lv e d w i t h t h e p r e v io u s p r o s e c u t io n o f Mr S e le b i b u t
b o t h a ls o l e f t b e c a u s e o f – o f w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g a t th e N PA .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I ta k e it t h a t e i t h e r t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s o r t h e l e g a l t e a m
h a v e b e e n in t o u c h w i t h a t le a s t s o m e o f t h o s e a n d t h a t e i t h e r t h e y w il l
b e c o m i n g fo r w a r d t o t e s ti fy o r a t le a s t w e k n o w w h a t th e y h a v e t o s a y.
10

S o i f i t h a s n o t b e e n t a k e n c a r e o f i t s h o u ld b e t a k e n c a r e o f.

We

s h o u l d a t l e a s t s p e a k t o e a c h o n e o f t h o s e p e o p l e a n d i f th e y h a v e g o t
in f o r m a ti o n t h a t fa ll s w i t h i n t h e t e r m o f r e f e r e n c e w e s h o u ld h a v e t h e m
g iv e e v id e n c e i n d u e c o u r s e . T h a n k y o u .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

In t h a t in s ta n c e

c a n I a s k u s to lo o k a t B u n d l e / E X H I B I T Z( D ) w h ic h is th e d i a g r a m s
b u n d l e a n d s li d e 4 w h ic h is c u r r e n tl y d is p l a y e d .
CHAIRPERSON : What page?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Page 4.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ye s .
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
a n A d v o c a t e Mz i n y a th i .
appears

on

the

S o G e n e r a l B o o y s e n y o u m e n t io n e d

J u s t f o r th e r e c o r d th e p e r i p h e r y c ir c le t h a t

b o tt o m

right

hand

side

is

th a t

the

same

A d v o c a t e Mz in y a t h i t h a t y o u h a d j u s t g iv e n e v i d e n c e a b o u t ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o C h a i r i t is n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( N o t a u d ib le ) .

Page 28 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t s e e h is n a m e h e r e . Is h e h e r e – is h is n a m e
here?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I n t h e p e r i p h e r y c ir c le a t t h e b o t t o m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Right hand side.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o n e a t t h e b o t to m o f p a g e 4 .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

N o i t is n o t th e s a m e

M z i n y a t h i . Th is is th e o n e fr o m G a u t e n g .
10

CHAIRPERSON : Oh.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir, w h ic h I t e s ti f ie d
a b o u t y e s te r d a y.
CHAIRPERSON :

O h , o k a y.

I t h i n k – I t h i n k i t w i ll t h e n b e i m p o r ta n t

t h a t w e h a v e i n i ti a ls to d i ff e r e n t i a t e w h ic h o n e w e a r e d e a li n g w i th a t
any one time.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

I t h in k t h i s o n e is a n

M s Mz i n y a t h i a n d t h e o t h e r o n e is M n y a t h i C h a ir i f I a m n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , b u t th e o n e t h a t y o u w e r e t a l k i n g fr o m D u r b a n is
Mzinyathi is that right?
20

M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o . H e is M n y a t h i.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M n y a th i n o t M z i n y a th i ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Bheki

–

B h e k i M n y a t h i.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Page 29 of 170

A n d th e o n e fr o m

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
G a u t e n g is M z i n y a th i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. I t h o u g h t y o u s a i d M z i n y a t h i e a r l ie r o n . S o
t h a t m i g h t h a v e c o n f u s e d M s S e p t e m b e r a s w e l l . O k a y. S o t h e o n e i n
D u r b a n is M n y a t h i n o t M z in y a t h i , o k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n t h e k e y a t th e

b o t t o m - o n t h e b o t to m l e f t h a n d s i d e t a lk s t o c o m m o n p r o s e c u to r s
in v o lv e d in m o r e t h a n o n e c a s e . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

A n d s o f o r t h e r e c o r d i t is r e c o r d e d

t h a t A d v o c a te M r w e b i w a s i n v o l v e d i n th e P a n d a y c a s e a n d t h e A m i g o s
case. Advocate Mosing in the Amigos case and the Cat o Manor case
a n d A d v o c a t e N o k o i n th e P a n d a y c a s e , t h e A m i g o s c a s e a n d th e C a t o
Manor case?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e r e w a s e v i d e n c e l e d i n r e la t io n t o
A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i ’s r o l e i n th e M d l u li l o o ti n g o f th e S e c r e t S e r v i c e
A c c o u n t . I s th e r e a n y p a r ti c u la r r e a s o n w h y h e is n o t r e c o r d e d t o h a v e
b e e n i n c lu d e d in t h a t o n e t o ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

20

C h a ir I d i d n o t h a v e

e n o u g h i n f o r m a ti o n – p e r s o n a l i n f o r m a ti o n a l th o u g h I w a s s u b s e q u e n t ly
o b v i o u s l y p r iv y t o t h e J u s t ic e M o k g o r o R e p o r t a n d o t h e r n e w s p a p e r
r e p o r t s . I – I d i d n o t h a v e e n o u g h a t m y d i s p o s a l t o a d d h i m th e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d s o t h is d i a g r a m t h e n r e p r e s e n ts
t h e e v i d e n c e in y o u r a ff id a v i t a t t h e ti m e t h a t y o u d e p o s e d t o i t . Is t h a t

Page 30 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
correct?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I n d e e d C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

General Booysen do you know of a

prosecution.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I a m s o r r y. I a m n o t s u r e t h a t I u n d e r s t a n d t h is
d i a g r a m c o m p l e te ly. T h e k e y a t t h e b o t t o m h a s g o C a t o M a n o r w r i t te n
in a c e r ta in c o l o u r a n d I ta k e i t t h a t t h a t c o l o u r is n o t e x a c t ly th e s a m e
a s t h e c o l o u r w h e r e y o u h a v e g o t m a n y p r o s e c u t o r s s ta r t in g w i th
10

A d v o c a t e C h a u k e a t t h e t o p b u t I t a k e it t h a t t h a t p o r ti o n o f t h e – o f
t h a t c ir c le t e l ls u s t h e n a m e s o f p r o s e c u t o r s w h o w e r e in v o lv e d i n t h e
C a t o M a n o r c a s e . W o u l d th a t b e r ig h t M a j o r - G e n e r a l B o o y s e n ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a ir

th a t

–

th a t

w o u ld b e t h e c ir c l e to t h e – to t h e r i g h t ?
CHAIRPERSON :

Ja, to the right yes.

In other words where it says

C a t o M a n o r a t t h e b o t t o m t h e r e . I t is m o r e o r l e s s t h e s a m e c o lo u r a s
t h a t p o r t io n o f t h e c ir c l e w h e r e y o u h a v e g o t a n u m b e r o f n a m e s . S o I
a m t a k i n g i t t h a t w h a t i t d o e s m e a n is t h a t th o s e p r o s e c u t o r s w h o s e
n a m e a p p e a r in th a t p o r ti o n o f th e g r e e n c ir c l e w h e r e i n v o l v e d i n t h e
20

C a t o M a n o r c a s e . Is th a t r ig h t?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Th e y

were

C h a ir

although there were a number of other prosecutors whose names are.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e n o t i n c lu d e d ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Are

not

in c l u d e d .

T h e r e a r e – I r e c a l l th e r e w e r e t w o f e m a l e p r o s e c u t o r s a s w e ll o r la d y

Page 31 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
prosecutors.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Who names I do not

h a v e . I d id n o t i n c l u d e t h e m th e r e . S o t h e o n e s t h a t I h a v e .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

S o m e o f th e m – f o r

in s t a n c e A d v o c a t e A d a m s I h a v e i n c lu d e d h i m t h e r e C h a ir b e c a u s e h e
was sent to Greece according to papers by Advocate Shaun Abrahams .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : To g o a n d e s t a b l is h i f
h e c o u l d fi n d e v i d e n c e a g a in s t m y s e l f . H i m a n d A d v o c a t e M a e m a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

That was the sum

total of.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Of his involvement.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Advocate Chauke

I

t h i n k w a s m o r e a n a d m i n is tr a ti v e .
20

CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Role that he played in
s ig n in g l e t te r s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A d v o c a t e s M a t h e n jw a ,
M a e m a a n d J J M l o ts h w a t h e y w e r e a c t iv e i n v o l v e d in tr a v e l li n g t o K Z N

Page 32 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
a n d d o i n g t h e p r o s e c u ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Advocate Pretorius he
was in the background.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

On one occasion he

wrote a legal opinion.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
10

P e r t a i n in g to C a t o

M a n o r i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I t h o u g h t t h a t th e p u r p o s e o f t h e d i a g r a m w a s t o
s h o w t h e c r o s s s e c ti o n o f c e r ta i n p r o s e c u t o r s in r e g a r d to d i ff e r e n t
matters.

S o i n r e g a r d t o t h e C a t o M a n o r y o u c a n s e e th e r e w e r e a

n u m b e r o f p r o s e c u t o r s b u t t h e n in r e g a r d t o t h e o t h e r s i t lo o k s li k e y o u
o n ly s e e o n e n a m e . S o I a m n o t s u r e i f I u n d e r s t a n d th e p u r p o s e o f t h e
d i a g r a m c o r r e c t ly b e c a u s e it a p p e a r s o n l y – i t a p p e a r s t h a t i t is o n l y
t h e C a to M a n o r w h e r e y o u h a v e a n u m b e r o f th e m a n d a fe w o f t h e m – I
m e a n f o r e x a m p l e y o u h a v e g o t A d v o c a te J ib a w r i t t e n t h e r e a c ti n g a n d
D P P b u t h e r n a m e i s i n a c o lo u r f o r w h ic h th e r e i s n o k e y. A t l e a s t a s
20

f a r a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h is . S o I a m n o t a b l e to m a k e h e a d o r t a i l o f w h a t
h e r p r e s e n c e i n th a t p o r t io n m e a n s a n d t h e n y o u h a v e A d v o c a te M o s i n g
in a p o r t i o n o f a l a r g e r c ir c le t h a t is c o l o u r e d i n a c e r ta in w a y b u t w h e n
I l o o k a t t h e c e r t a i n k e y t h e r e is n o c o l o u r lik e t h a t . S o I d o n o t k n o w
w h a t i t m e a n s to h a v e h i m t h e r e . T h e n y o u h a v e A d v o c a t e Vi m b a n i h i s
or her name – I do not know if it is a female or male – appears in a pink

Page 33 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
p o r t i o n o f a c ir c le b u t I d o n o t s e e a k e y t h a t t e l ls m e w h a t i t m e a n s f o r
w h a t – w h a t c a s e t h a t is o r o k a y m a y b e t h e k e y is – p a r t o f t h e k e y is
a t th e b o t to m .

P a r t o f i t is a t th e t o p .

I see Amigos case.

Maybe it

m e a n s s h e w a s – h e w a s i n v o lv e d i n t h e A m i g o s c a s e . T h e n t h e P a n d a y
in v e s t i g a t io n t h e c o l o u r is b lu is h .

S o I g u e s s t h a t – t h a t is – th a t

s h o w s t h a t b u t I d o n o t s e e o t h e r c o l o u r s b u t a ls o i f y o u ju s t s e e o n e
p r o s e c u t o r th e r e I a m n o t s u r e t h a t i t i s i n li n e w i t h t h a t I t h o u g h t w a s
t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e d i a g r a m . I t h o u g h t t h e p u r p o s e w a s g o – w a s to s a y
lo o k a t t h e c o m m o n a li ty o f t h e s a m e p r o s e c u t o r s a n d d i ffe r e n t c a s e s .
10

T h a t is w h a t I t h o u g h t t h e id e a w a s b u t I m ig h t b e m is t a k e n .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir i f I c o u l d a s s is t .
I f w e l o o k a t A d v o c a t e J i b a a t th e b o t t o m p e r h a p s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

T h i s c i r c l e in t e r c e p ts

with other circles.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

S o s h e – th e m a i n

c ir c le s h a r e s in th is - t h e lo o ti n g o f t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t a n d th e
role
20

she

p la y e d

there

was

the

withdrawal

of

charges

against

R i c h a r d M d l u l i b u t h e r n a m e a ls o i n t e r c e p ts w i th t h e C a to M a n o r
in v e s t i g a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I th in k w h a t – w h a t - is t h e r e a c a s e th a t h a s g o t th e
c o l o u r w h e r e h e r n a m e is b e c a u s e i f t h e c o l o u r o f t h e p a r t w h e r e h e r
n a m e i s w a s t h e s a m e a s t h e c o l o u r fo r t h e l o o t in g o f S e c r e t S e r v i c e
A c c o u n t t h e n i t w o u l d t e ll m e t h a t s h e w a s i n v o lv e d i n b o t h C a t o M a n o r

Page 34 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
a n d t h e l o o t in g – th e lo o ti n g o f t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t b u t b e c a u s e
it h a s g o t i ts o w n c o l o u r f o r w h ic h I f i n d n o k e y i t c o n f u s e s m e o r d o I
m is u n d e r s t a n d ? M a y b e b o t h o f y o u u n d e r s t a n d th is . I a m t h e o n ly o n e
who does not understand it.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

N o , n o t a t a l l C h a ir.

If I may

G e n e r a l B o o y s e n – t h e p r o s e c u t o r s w h o a r e r e fl e c t e d in t h is d i a g r a m is
it a c o m p r e h e n s iv e li s t o f a ll p r o s e c u to r s i n v o lv e d i n a ll f o u r m a t t e r s ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

B a r th e o n e o r t w o

w h o – w h o s e n a m e s I d o n o t k n o w C h a ir – w h o I s a w a t c o u r t b u t w h o s e
10

n a m e s I d o n o t k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

A l t h o u g h th e i r n a m e s

a p p e a r i n a n s w e r i n g a ff id a v i ts o f A d v o c a t e A b r a h a m s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

But I do not know

them.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t k n o w j a .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And

these

are

certainly

the

p r o s e c u t o r s t h a t y o u a r e a w a r e o f w e r e i n v o l v e d i n t h e s e fo u r m a t t e r s .
20

Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir

b u t I j u s t w a n t t o c la r i fy o n e a s p e c t t h e r e . If y o u l o o k a t a n d i t c o u l d
p e r h a p s b e s l i g h t ly m is le a d i n g . If y o u l o o k a t t h e t o p C h a i r th e P a n d a y
in v e s t i g a t io n w h e r e y o u h a v e A d v o c a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 35 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : D o r ia n P a v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : H e w a s th e p r o s e c u t o r
w h o p r o v i s i o n a lly w it h d r a w t h e c h a r g e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I n a R 1 7 m i ll io n c a s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : B u t t h e r e a s o n s a t th e
ti m e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa s i t 7 0 o r 6 0 ? 6 0 m i ll i o n o r 7 0 m i ll io n ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

N o C h a ir. T h e r e w a s

a 6 0 m il li o n o n e .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Then there was a 17

m il li o n o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Th a t

was

the

15

m il li o n t h a t t h e c r e a t e d i n v o i c e s f o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
20

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
t u r n e d – w h ic h e v e n t u a l ly c a m e to 1 7 m i ll i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : And that is 1-7?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : 1-7.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h 1 - 7 , n o t 7 0 . O k a y.

Page 36 of 170

W h ic h

e v e n t u a l ly

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

So

C h a ir

in

th a t

m a t t e r A d v o c a t e P a v e r w a s t h e p r o s e c u t o r.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

B u t b e c a u s e o f th e

r e c o r d i n g s th a t w e r e i n d i s t i n c t .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

He

p r o v is io n a l ly

w i t h d r a w t h e m a t te r a n d C h a ir w o u l d r e c a l l C h a ir a s k e d m e w h e r e –
w h e r e th a t d o c k e t is n o w a n d m y r e s p o n s e w a s i t is n o w w i t h I P I D .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: So.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : I do not want this.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

P i c t u r e to b e tr a y a l l

t h e s e p r o s e c u to r s a s p e o p le b e i n g o n t h e w r o n g s id e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y, ja b e c a u s e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : In.
CHAIRPERSON :
20

T h a t w a s m y – t h a t w a s my u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t th e

d i a g r a m s h o w s a g r o u p o f p r o s e c u t o r s w h o s e e m e d t o f e a t u r e in m o s t
o f t h e s e c a s e s w h e r e p e o p le w h o w e r e d o i n g t h e ir j o b w e r e b e in g
s u s p e n d e d c h a r g e d a n d a l l. Th a t w a s – t h a t w a s th e i m p r e s s i o n I h a d
b u t w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g i s i t is n o t a ll o f t h e m w h o a p p e a r o n th e
( in d is ti n c t) ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s tr u e C h a ir.

Page 37 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e n o t s a y i n g t h a t a b o u t a ll o f t h e m ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is o n ly s o m e .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s tr u e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d w h o e x a c tly a r e th o s e s o m e ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a ir

-

A d v o c a t e P a v e r – I t h in k I h a v e a lr e a d y e x p l a i n e d w h y h e h a d
withdrawn those charges.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Then

th e r e

is

A d v o c a t e Vi m b a n i .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : W h o is t h e – th e H e a d
o f t h e C o m m e r c ia l C r i m e C o u r t i n K w a Z u l u - N a t a l.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Whom I – whom I had
n o t d e a lt w it h p e r s o n a l ly.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

But she has taken

o v e r th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n a s – a s C h a i r w o u l d r e c a l l .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : T h e A m i g o s c a s e th a t
w a s w i th A d v o c a te D u n y w a .

Page 38 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

W h e n – w h e n th e

c h a r g e s w e r e w i th d r a w n a g a i n s t M a b u y a k h u l u a n d N k o n y e n i .

That

d o c k e t w a s t h e n ta k e n a w a y fr o m D u n y w a – A d v o c a t e D u n y w a .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

And

g iv e n

to

A d v o c a t e Vi m b a n i .
10

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

I w il l le a v e i t a t th a t

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

The

rest

of

th e

p r o s e c u t o r s - A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i - h e h a s b e e n i n v o lv e d w i th q u i t e a
n u m b e r o f th e s e c a s e s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Advocate Jiba with a

n u m b e r o f th e s e c a s e s .
20

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
some of the cases.

Advocate Noko with

A d v o c a t e M o s i n g w i t h s o m e o f th e c a s e s .

A d v o c a t e Pr e to r i u s w i t h s o m e o f t h e c a s e s . A d v o c a t e M a t h e n j w a w i t h
some of the cases.

A d v o c a te M a e m a w i t h a n u m b e r o f th e s e c a s e s

C h a ir.

Page 39 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h e c o m m o n n a m e s t h o u g h th a t

a p p e a r i n – t h r o u g h y o u r o b s e r v a ti o n s – in m o r e t h a n o n e m a t t e r a r e
thus

Advocate Mrwebi,

Advocate Noko,

Advocate Mosing

and

A d v o c a t e J i b a . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : To m o v e o n i n y o u r s ta t e m e n t w e a r e
now at page 43.

T h e n e x t th e m o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t r e l a te s t o L a w

E n f o r c e m e n t a n d i n p a r ti c u la r th e H a w k s a n d t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n P o l ic e
10

S e r v ic e s . A s i m i la r d ia g r a m h a s a c c o r d i n g ly b e e n p r e p a r e d a s w i th t h e
p r o s e c u t o r s w h ic h c a n b e f o u n d a t p a g e 5 o f E X H I B I T Z ( D ) .

Is i t

c o r r e c t t h a t th e s a m e r a t i o n a le i n th e p r e p a r a t io n o f t h e o n e – o f t h e
d i a g r a m f o r p r o s e c u ti o n s i n f o r m e d t h e p r e p a r a t io n o f t h i s s l id e ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s s o C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th e r e a r e t w o p e r s o n s in p a r t ic u l a r

o u t s i d e o f o th e r s t h a t y o u r s ta t e m e n t o r r a t h e r y o u r a ff id a v i t d e a ls w i th
a n d t h e f ir s t p e r s o n th a t y o u m e n ti o n e d a t p a g e 4 3 o f E X H I B I T Z A
p a r a g r a p h 1 4 0 is M a j o r G e n e r a l B e r n i n g N t le m e z a .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

ADV

VERUSCHKA

SEPTEMBER :

Major

General

N tl e m e z a

was

a p p o i n t e d o n t h e 2 4 t h o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 a s t h e Ac t in g H e a d o f t h e
H a w k s , w h a t w e r e y o u r o b s e r v a ti o n s f o ll o w in g h is a p p o i n t m e n t?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BO OYSEN :

C h a ir f o r l a c k o f a

b e t t e r w o r d w h e n h e w a s a p p o in t e d a l l h e ll b r o k e lo o s e w i t h i n th e
D P C I , I c a n n o t d e s c r i b e it i n a n y o t h e r w a y. H e w a s a p p o i n t e d I t h i n k

Page 40 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
o n t h e 2 5 t h o r 2 4 t h o f D e c e m b e r, th e v e r y fir s t t h i n g h e d i d a n d t h a t ’s
w h a t s t a r te d t o r a is e s o m e r e d f l a g s t o m e , t h e v e r y fi r s t th in g h e d id
w a s I r e c e iv e d a c a l l fr o m h i m s ix d a y s a f te r h i s a p p o in t m e n t o n N e w
Ye a r ’s Ev e i n th e a f t e r n o o n .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h i c h y e a r w a s t h is ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Tw o t h o u s a n d a n d . . .
CHAIRPERSON : 2014.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : 2 0 1 4 C h a ir, th a t ’s j u s t
a ft e r G e n e r a l D r a m a t w a s s u s p e n d e d .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Thank you
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOO YSEN : I received a call from
h i m a n d h e s a i d t o m e t h a t h e w o u l d li k e to s e e m e o n t h e 1 s t o f
J a n u a r y, C h a i r n o r m a l ly y o u r o p e r a ti o n a l p e o p le w o r k o n t h e 1 s t o f
J a n u a r y, i t ’s t h e f ir s t t i m e i n m y p o l ic e c a r e e r o f f o r ty y e a r s o f w h i c h I
s a t a t h o m e f o r m o r e th a n t h r e e y e a r s , t h a t I h a d b e e n s u m m o n e d t o a
m e e ti n g i n t h e m o r n i n g o f a N e w Ye a r ’s D a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n N e w Ye a r ’s D a y ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e y o u s u p p o s e d to f ly u p t o G a u t e n g ?

20

M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o C h a ir, I a m g o in g
t o g e t t o th a t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESS EL BOOY SEN : So Chair he wanted to
s e e m e a t th e P r o v in c i a l H e a d q u a r te r s w h e r e m y o ffic e s a r e s it u a te d .
I n i ti a l ly h e t o ld m e h e w a n te d to s e e m e I t h i n k i t w a s te n o ’ c l o c k . S o I

Page 41 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
w e n t to b e d e a r l y o n N e w Ye a r ’s E v e , I d i d n ’ t c e l e b r a t e w i th t h e f a m il y,
a n d I w o k e u p t h a t m o r n in g j u s t a f t e r s e v e n a n d it w a s N t le m e z a ,
G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t th is s t a g e y o u w e r e n o t u n d e r s u s p e n s i o n , o n e h a s
g o t t o tr y a n d j u s t .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

I’m back at work

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e b a c k a t w o r k a t t h a t ti m e , o k a y.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s I ’ m b a c k a t w o r k
10

C h a ir, s o I w a s in m y p o s t .

I w a s b u s y r e v i e w i n g a l l th e s e c a s e s

a g a in s t P a n d a y, M a d h o e , G e n e r a l N g o b e n i e t c e t e r a .

I woke up just

a ft e r s e v e n , h e p h o n e d m e h e s a i d t o m e n o I n e e d t o c o m e th r o u g h
n o w, h e is a t t h e o ffic e a lr e a d y. S o I s a i d t o h i m o k a y I ’l l g e t d r e s s e d ,
w h ic h I d i d a n d I d r o v e t h r o u g h to D u r b a n , it t o o k m e a b o u t h a lf a n h o u r
to get there, and on my arrival there I phoned him to ask him where he
w a s , a n d h e s a i d t o m e n o h e ’s o n t h e 1 7 t h f l o o r, w i t h t h e P r o v in c i a l
C o m m i s s i o n e r. N o r m a lly C h a ir w h e n t h e H e a d o f t h e H a w k s c o m e s to
K w a Z u l u N a t a l l ik e G e n e r a l D r a m a t , h e p h o n e s th e P r o v i n c i a l H e a d l ik e
m y s e l f , o r w h o e v e r i f i t ’s S h a d r a c k S i b i y a in G a u te n g o r i f i t’s M a t a k a ta
20

in C a p e To w n t o m a k e tr a v e l a r r a n g e m e n ts f o r h i m . O n t h is in s ta n c e h e
m a d e h is o w n tr a v e l a r r a n g e m e n ts , h e w a s fe t c h e d f r o m t h e a ir p o r t b y a
C o l o n e l a n d ta k e n t o G e n e r a l N g o b e n i ’s o ffi c e . N o w C h a ir w o u l d r e c a ll
t h a t N g o b e n i a t th e ti m e w a s th e s u b j e c t o f a c r i m i n a l i n v e s ti g a ti o n . I
w e n t u p t o t h e 1 7 t h f lo o r . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n )
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER :

B e f o r e y o u g o u p t o t h e 1 7 t h f lo o r

Page 42 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
w h o w a s t h e c o l o n e l t h a t tr a n s p o r te d M a j o r G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir it w a s a C o l o n e l
C l a r e n c e J o n e s w h o w a s o n e o f m y c o l o n e ls , s o n o r m a l ly I w o u l d g e t
t h e c a ll , I w il l d e s i g n a t e s o m e o n e t o g o a n d f e tc h w h o e v e r fr o m t h e
a ir p o r t . In t h is in s t a n c e C o l o n e l C la r e n c e J o n e s w a s p h o n e d , I d o n o t
k n o w b y w h o m , to fe tc h G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a fr o m t h e a ir p o r t , a n d I
m e n ti o n e d C o lo n e l J o n e s h e r e s p e c i f ic a l l y b e c a u s e d u r in g th e P a n d a y
in v e s t i g a t io n I w a s s i t t in g i n a r e s t a u r a n t , a n d I’ m d ig r e s s i n g a l i tt l e b i t
n o w b e c a u s e t h e A d v o c a te w a n ts m e t o s a y w h o J o n e s is , I w a s s i t ti n g
10

a t a r e s t a u r a n t i n D u r b a n N o r t h a t th e B i te Yo u r To n g u e R e s t a u r a n t
w h e n A d v o c a t e K n o x M o l e l e , h e ’s fr o m t h e N a ti o n a l P r o s e c u t in g
A u t h o r i ty, w a l k e d b y a n d h e s a w m e a n d h e c a m e a n d s a t d o w n w i t h m e
a n d w e h a d a c h a t a n d h e t o l d m e t h a t h e ’s g o t s o m e c o n c e r n s th a t
J o n e s h a d b e e n m a k in g c o n t a c t w it h h i m , a t th a t t i m e A d v o c a t e M o le l e
w a s t h e H e a d o f A s s e t o f Fo r f e it u r e i n K Z N , a n d h e to l d m e th a t J o n e s ,
w h o h a d a b s o l u t e ly n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h t h e P a n d a y in v e s ti g a t io n h a d
a p p r o a c h e d h i m t o w r i t e a l e t t e r t o s a y t h a t t h e r e ’s n o c a s e i n te r ms o f
a s s e ts f o r fe i tu r e t o h a v e t h e fi f te e n m il li o n w h ic h I h a d fr o z e n r e l e a s e d .
S i m u lt a n e o u s t o th a t Br i g a d i e r L a w r e n c e K e m p , w h o w a s t h e

20

H e a d o f Fi n a n c e s in t h e Pr o v i n c e , p h o n e d m e a n d a s k e d m e w h o
C o l o n e l J o n e s w a s , s o I s a id t o h i m i t ’s o n e o f t h e C o l o n e ls t h a t r e p o r t
t o m e , s o h e s a i d to m e h e w a s s n o o p i n g a r o u n d a t t h e Fi n a n c i a l
o ffic e s m a k i n g q u e r i e s a b o u t t h e 1 5 m il li o n I h a d f r o z e n .
Kemp

w e ll

just

ignore

him,

h e ’s

got

n o th i n g

to

So I said to
do

with

that

in v e s t i g a t io n , I h a d fr o z e n th e m o n e y a n d I w i ll b e th e o n e t h a t w i ll

Page 43 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
u n fr e e z e i t .
I w r o t e t o G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a n o fe w e r t h a n th r e e , i t c o u ld b e
f o u r, it c o u l d e v e n b e fi v e t i m e s , r e p o r ti n g J o n e s c o n d u c t t o h i m , h e
n e v e r e v e n b o th e r e d to a c k n o w le d g e r e c e i p t o f a n y o f m y l e t t e r s , t o
s u c h a n e x te n t th a t I p h o n e d B r ig a d i e r K u b i e M o o d l e y, w h o is n o w t h e
H e a d o f t h e H a w k s in th e Fr e e S t a t e , w h o is in c h a r g e o f t h o s e
in v e s t i g a t io n s , t h o s e ty p e o f i n v e s t i g a t io n s , I s a i d t o h i m K u b ie w h a t is
g o i n g o n h e r e , a n d I c o u l d s e n s e a f e e li n g o f d is c o m f o r t fr o m M o o d le y
a n d w h a t I g a t h e r e d fr o m w h a t h e w a s t r y i n g t o t e l l m e t h a t h e w a s
10

b e i n g fr u s tr a te d o r i n h i b i t e d b y N tl e m e z a .
S o C h a ir b a c k t o t h e m e e ti n g a t N a t io n a l H e a d – Pr o v in c i a l
H e a d Q u a r t e r s I w e n t u p in t h e li f t a n d w h e n I a r r iv e d o n t h e 1 7 t h f lo o r
y o u t u r n to y o u r le f t t o g o t o t h e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s io n e r ’s o ff ic e a n d
a s I a p p r o a c h e d h e r o ffic e h e r s e c r e t a r y w a s a ls o th e r e , s o s h e j u m p e d
u p a n d s a i d to m e n o , n o w a i t , y o u m u s t g o a n d s it in a n o t h e r o ffi c e
t h e r e in t h e c o r n e r.

S o I w e n t a n d s a t i n a c o r n e r i n a n o t h e r o ff ic e .

A f t e r a b o u t f if t e e n m in u t e s N tl e m e z a j o i n e d m e i n t h e o ffi c e a n d h e
a s k e d m e a b o u t n u m b e r o n e w h a t d o e s m y e q u i ty p r o f il e l o o k li k e .

I

t h o u g h t i t w a s s t r a n g e b e c a u s e m y e q u i ty p r o f il e w a s a v a il a b l e o n th e
20

s y s te m a t h is o ffi c e , a n d th e n h e c o m p l a in e d a n d s a id t o m e n o , n o
y o u ’v e g o t to o m a n y I n d i a n s h e r e . S o I s a id w e l l i t ’s n o n e o f m y d o i n g ,
I n e v e r d id – a l l t h e s e p e o p le a r e fr o m t h e S c o r p io n s , I c a n n o t j u s t
c h a s e t h e m a w a y, I’ v e in h e r it e d t h e m .
A n d t h e n h e s a i d t o m e h e n e e d e d a r e p o r t fr o m m e , a n d I
c o u l d n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d w h a t r e p o r t i t i s t h a t . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n )

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
CHAIRPERSON : What did he say?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

H e w a n te d a r e p o r t

fr o m m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t w h a t ? A b o u t t h e p e o p le w h o r e p o r t t o y o u ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

W e ll i n te r a li a a b o u t

m y e q u i t y p r o f il e a n d a ls o a b o u t i n v e s t ig a t io n s t h a t w e w e r e b u s y w i t h ,
b u t h e w a s v e r y i n c o h e r e n t C h a ir, I c o u l d n ’ t m a k e o u t w h a t h e w a s
tr y i n g t o s a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M m m , t h e e q u it y p r o fi l e r e fe r r e d to w h a t ?
10

MAJOR

GENERAL

JOHAN

WESSEL

BOOYSEN :

My

racial

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
CHAIRPERSON :

O h , th e r a c i a l a n d g e n d e r r e p r e s e n ta t io n o f p e o p l e

under you.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, a lr i g h t .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

B u t C h a ir in m y

o p i n i o n t h a t w a s j u s t a g u is e to c o m e t o K w a Z u lu N a t a l b e c a u s e w h a t ’s
h e d o i n g t a lk i n g t o a s u s p e c t in m y c r i m i n a l i n v e s ti g a ti o n .

General

D r a m a t w o u l d n e v e r h a v e d o n e th a t .
20

CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s , a n d j u s t t o c o m p l e te t h e s t o r y, I a s s u m e t h e

P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s io n e r w a s p r e s e n t a t t h e o ff ic e o n t h e d a y ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : S h e w a s t h e r e a s w e ll
C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y, c o n t in u e .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A n d th a t ’s w h a t r e a lly

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
c o n c e r n e d m e is h e s p e n d s t i m e w i t h a s u s p e c t i n a c r i m in a l
in v e s t i g a t io n , t h e n h e tr ie s t o m a k e m e b e li e v e h e ’s th e r e t o lo o k a t my
e q u it y p r o fi l e o n t h e 1 s t o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 5 i n t h e m o r n i n g , w h ic h d i d n ’ t
m a k e s e n s e a n d h e t h e n a s k e d m e , C h a ir I ’ m n o t e x a g g e r a t in g , t h e w a y
h e c o m m u n ic a t e s y o u c a n n e v e r f ig u r e w h a t h e w a n ts o r w h a t h e
d o e s n ’t w a n t , s o h e a s k e d m e a f o r a r e p o r t .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
CHAIRPERSON :

W h a t c o u l d h a v e b e e n s o u r g e n t a b o u t th e g e n d e r

a n d r a c ia l r e p r e s e n ta t io n o f s t a ff u n d e r y o u o n th e 1 s t o f th e N e w Ye a r.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir t h a t w a s a r u s e .
10

T h a t w a s a r u s e t o d o s o m e th i n g e l s e .

And that ruse was he

i m m e d i a t e ly, w e ll h e – w h i l e D r a m a t w a s s u s p e n d e d I w r o t e o u t a n
a p p lic a ti o n t o fl y to C a p e To w n , I w a n t e d t o g o a n d s e e D r a m a t ,
b e c a u s e I k n e w D r a m a t w a s u n d e r s e v e r e s tr a i n a t t h a t ti m e . A n d m y
in t e n t io n to g o a n d s e e D r a m a t w a s to t e l l h i m t o h a n g i n t h e r e , t h a t w e
n e e d h i m , t h e c o u n tr y n e e d s h i m , w e n e e d h i m t h e r e . S o I s e n t – w h e n
I s e n t t h e i t in e r a r y u n b e k n o w n , w e l l I d i d n ’ t r e a li s e t h e n u n ti l
a ft e r w a r d s w h a t h is g r i p e w i t h D r a m a t w a s , s o I d i d n ’ t s a y I w a n te d to
g o a n d s e e D r a m a t , I w r o te t h e r e I w a n t t o g o f o r i n v e s t ig a ti o n s , a n d
t h e th in g c a m e b a c k i m m e d i a te ly a n d h e w a n t e d a f u l l r e p o r t fr o m m e
20

w h a t d o I w a n t t o g o i n C a p e To w n . S o I t h o u g h t n o I a m n o t g o i n g t o
d o t h a t s o I b o u g h t m y o w n p l a n e t ic k e t a n d I f l e w t h e r e a n d I w e n t a n d
I did have the meeting with General Dramat.
So he says to me yes and what were you – what did you want
t o d o in C a p e To w n a n d h e c a u g h t m e o ff g u a r d , s o I q u ic k ly h a d to
t h i n k , I s a i d n o I w a n te d to g o a n d s e e a n i n v e s ti g a to r, C o lo n e l K o b u s

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
R o e lo fs e , b u t h e h a p p e n s to b e o n l e a v e i n J e ffr e y s B a y o r s o m e t h i n g ,
w h ic h h e w a s , s o h e s a y s t o m e n o h e w a n ts a r e p o r t a n d t h e n h e – h e
s a y s t o m e a n d h e w a n ts a r e p o r t th e f o ll o w i n g m o r n in g , n o , n o l a te
t h a t a f te r n o o n . I h a d t o p h o n e B r ig a d i e r M a r a n s e la , C a p t a in P e ls e r a n d
C o l o n e l A n d r e L a a ts to c o m e i n t o t h e o ffic e a n d e x tr a c t a ll t h i s
in f o r m a ti o n f r o m t h e c o m p u te r s f o r h i m .
W h e n I w a s fi n i s h e d w it h – I t h e n w e n t h o m e , a fe w m in u t e s
la t e r h e p h o n e s m e h e s a y s t o m e n o I m u s t c o m e b a c k t o t o w n , h e
w a n ts th e t h in g n o w.
10

I g o t d r e s s e d a g a i n , a l l t h e w a y b a c k to to w n ,

w h e n I a r r iv e d t h e r e h e w a s n ’ t a t th e o ff ic e , s o I p h o n e d h i m , I s a id
o k a y w e ’r e a l m o s t d o n e w i th th e r e p o r t, h e s a y s t o m e n o I m u s t n o w
b r i n g i t t o t h e a ir p o r t .

N o w I ’ m s t a r ti n g t o g e t ir r i t a te d w i t h h i m , w e

b a s ic a lly h a d t h e s a m e r a n k , a l t h o u g h h e w a s a c ti n g a s t h e H e a d , I
s a i d t o h i m w h y d o n ’ t y o u r a t h e r c o m e t o o ffi c e , I ’v e a s k e d p e o p l e to
c o m e in o n th e 1 s t o f J a n u a r y, a t le a s t ju s t c o m e a n d g r e e t t h e m a n d
s a y t h a n k y o u f o r s a c r i fic i n g t h e N e w Ye a r ’s d a y, s o h e s a y s t o m e n o
h e is b u s y p a tr o l li n g o n th e b e a c h fr o n t n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : P a tr o l li n g ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOO YSEN :
20

H e ’s b u s y p a tr o l li n g

o n t h e b e a c h fr o n t , I d o n ’t k n o w w h a t . . .( in t e r v e n t i o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa s t h a t h i s j o b ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Oh.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t w a s n o t h is j o b .
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t w h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f w h a t h e w a s

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
s a y in g , t h a t h e w a s p a tr o l li n g , I m e a n i t w a s o b v io u s ly F e s t iv e S e a s o n
and I come from Durban so I know that sometimes there are a lot of
S A P S t o m a k e s u r e th a t o n t h e b e a c h fr o n t y o u k n o w p e o p l e a r e s a fe
a n d s o o n . Wa s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g th a t ’s w h a t h e m e a n t ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSE N:

C h a ir I w i ll g iv e h i m

t h e b e n e f i t o f th e d o u b t , m a y b e h e w a n t e d to b e h a n d s - o n , b u t I w i ll
g iv e h i m t h e b e n e f i t o f th e d o u b t f o r th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOO YSEN :
10

S o C h a ir s o h e s a y s

t o m e n o , n o , n o h e ’s c o m i n g b a c k n o w, I m u s t m e e t h i m i n fr o n t o f th e
o ffic e , s o w e h u r r i e d ly g o t t h e r e p o r t s t o g e th e r a n d I t o o k a n e n v e l o p e
w i t h t h e r e p o r t t h a t h e w a n t e d , w h ic h I t h o u g h t h e w a n t e d , I w e n t
d o w n s t a ir s a n d M a r a n s e la w a s s ta n d i n g b e h i n d m e a n d I t h i n k C o l o n e l
L a a ts w a s a ls o th e r e , a n d I t h i n k P e l s e r. S o h e s a t , a n d t h a t ’s w h e n I
s a w C o l o n e l J o n e s is d r iv in g a r o u n d in t h e P r o v in c i a l C o m m i s s io n e r ’s
c a r, n o t a p r i v a t e c a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e P r o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s io n e r ’s c a r ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

O n e o f th e S t a te

o ffic i a l c a r s n o t a p r i v a t e c a r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A n d I i m m e d i a t e ly fe l t
u n c o m f o r t a b l e , I m e a n C o l o n e l J o n e s h a d r e p o r t e d t o h i m , h e is d r i v i n g
h i m a r o u n d , h e is d r i v i n g h i m a r o u n d i n a p o li c e v e h i c l e t h a t ’s a l lo c a t e d
t o th e P r o v i n c i a l C o m m is s i o n e r, h e i s m e e ti n g w i t h th e P r o v i n c i a l
C o m m i s s i o n e r w h o is a s u s p e c t o f m i n e , b u t h e w a s s it t in g in t h e b a c k

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
o f t h e c a r. S o h e p r e s s e d th e b u t t o n f o r t h e w i n d o w to g o d o w n a n d I
b e n t o v e r a n d I g a v e h i m t h e r e p o r t a n d t h e e n v e lo p e a n d h e l o o k e d
in t o t h e e n v e lo p e a n d h e s a y s n o b u t i t’s e m p ty. I s a i d n o t h e r e p o r t
m u s t g o i n s id e t h e r e . H e h a d a l o o k a t t h e r e p o r t a n d s a i d n o , n o , n o ,
n o , C h a ir t h a t m a n h a s g o t a v e r y – I c a n n o t d e s c r ib e t o y o u h o w h e
t a lk s t o p e o p le , a n d h e s ta r te d s h o u t in g n o , n o , a n d th e n I h a d h a d
e n o u g h o f h i m , I s a id t o h i m l is t e n h e r e t h e n y o u n e e d t o s t a r t
c o m m u n ic a ti n g p r o p e r ly, a n d h e c o u l d s e e t h a t I w a s a n g r y s o h e
ju m p e d o u t o f th e c a r a n d h e t o o k m e b y t h e a r m a n d h e t o o k m e
10

a r o u n d t h e b a c k a n d h e s a y s n o , n o , n o , n o J o h a n l e t u s n o t f ig h t .

I

s a i d t o h i m b u t y o u d o n ’ t – I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t i t is t h a t y o u w a n t . T h e n
h e s a id t o m e t h e r e p o r t h e a c t u a l ly w a n te d w a s w h y d id I w a n t t o g o to
C a p e To w n .

Br ig a d i e r M a r a n s e l a a c tu a lly c a m e t o m e a n d p u ll e d m e

b a c k a n d h e s a id t o m e G e n e r a l j u s t le a v e it .
M a r a n s e l a tr a v e l le d w i t h m e i n my c a r b e c a u s e h e a ls o , w e
liv e in t h e s a m e s u b u r b , w e ll w e u s e d t o , a n d o n t h e w a y b a c k t o
A m a n z i m t o ti h e p h o n e d m e a n d h e w a s o n s p e a k e r p h o n e , th a t’s n o w
N tl e m e z a n o w, a n d h e s a y s t o m e h e y J o h a n w e m u s t n ’ t f i g h t , y o u k n o w
y o u p e o p l e i n K Z N y o u a r e t h e b e s t a n d h e w a s b a s ic a lly b o o s t i n g , I
20

m e a n M a r a n s e la s t il l . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : K in d o f a p o l o g is in g i n d ir e c tl y o r s o m e t h i n g l ik e t h a t?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

I n d ir e c tl y C h a ir, a n d

t h e n M a r a n s e l a l o o k e d a t m e a n d h e j u s t s h o o k h i s h e a d a n d I a l s o ju s t
s h o o k my h e a d .

S o C h a i r t h e fir s t t h i n g h e d i d a ft e r h i s a p p o i n t m e n t

w a s t o c o m e a n d t o m e e t o n e o f my s u s p e c ts . T h e s e c o n d th i n g h e d id

Page 49 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
is I k n o w f r o m t h e r e , I h a v e n ’ t g o t th e e x a c t d a t e s , h e tr a v e l l e d to C a p e
To w n w h e r e t h e le a d i n v e s ti g a to r i n t h e l o o t in g o f t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s
a c c o u n t w a s C o lo n e l K o b u s R o e l o fs e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ar e y o u s a y i n g n o w i n C a p e To w n ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I n C a p e To w n C h a ir, i t
c o u l d h a v e b e e n a d a y a f t e r o r a d a y o r t w o la t e r, b u t h e tr a v e ll e d fr o m
D u r b a n t o C a p e To w n a n d th e r e h e i n d ir e c tly i n ti m i d a t e d R o e lo f s e ,
R o e lo fs e t o l d m e th a t h i m s e l f , a n d l a te r o n h e to o k a w a y th e
in v e s t i g a t io n fr o m R o e l o fs e . C h a i r th e r e w a s a n o t h e r i n v e s ti g a ti o n th a t
10

w e w e r e d o in g a t K Z N t h a t I w i ll p e r h a p s t a lk a b o u t la t e r o n , it m i g h t b e
ir r e l e v a n t , w h ic h I h a d t o e n g a g e w i th R o e l o fs e a n d R o e lo fs e e x p r e s s e d
h is fr u s tr a ti o n s , h e w a s a l m o s t , t h e i m p r e s s io n th a t I g a in e d , b e c a u s e I
wanted to come and see us in KwaZulu Natal and he said to me he
c a n ’ t , h e ’s b e e n b o u n d , h e c a n n o t le a v e t h e o ffic e , i t ’s a l m o s t li k e h e
was shackled to stay in the Western Cape.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w i n r e g a r d t o t h e in v e s t ig a ti o n t h a t – d o y o u s a y
it ’s R o e lo f s e , w h a t w a s t h e n a m e o f t h e . . .( in t e r v e n t i o n )
MAJOR

GENERAL JOHAN

WESSEL B OOYSEN :

Colonel Kobus

R o e lo fs e C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : R o e l o fs e ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t ’s c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I j u s t w a n t t o p r o n o u n c e it c o r r e c t ly.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

Is t h e r e a n y t h i n g s i g n i f ic a n t a b o u t th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n

fr o m w h ic h h e w a s t a k e n o ff b y G e n e r a l N t l e m e z a ?

Page 50 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL B OOYSEN :

C h a ir i t’s h i g h ly

s ig n if ic a n t b e c a u s e K o b u s R o e l o fs e , C o l o n e l K o b u s R o e lo f s e w a s t h e
le a d a n d m a in i n v e s t i g a t o r i n t h e lo o t in g o f th e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s
account.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

N o w I u n d e r s t o o d I th i n k y e s t e r d a y t h a t t h e

lo o ti n g o f t h e S e c r e t a c c o u n t th a t w e ta l k e d a b o u t r e l a te d t o K Z N , is
t h a t th e s a m e o r i t ’s d i ff e r e n t p r o v i n c e s ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

N o , n o C h a ir s o t h e

in it i a l i n v e s t ig a ti o n i n to t h e l o o ti n g o f t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s a c c o u n t w e r e
10

in it i a t e d fr o m a r e p o r t b y G e n e r a l M a r k H a n c k l e w h ic h w a s s i g n e d o ff
by Dr de Kock.

T h a t w a s a l m o s t , i f I c a n c a l l i t t h e w h is t le b lo w in g

point.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , r e p o r t .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : S i m u l ta n e o u s t o t h a t I
t h i n k G e n e r a l D r a m a t th e n w a s o v e r s e e in g th e in v e s ti g a t io n fr o m H e a d
O ff ic e b u t t h e a c t u a l in v e s t i g a t o r f o r th e l o o t in g o f th e – w e c a ll i t th e
s lu s h f u n d , w a s C o l o n e l K o b u s R o e l o fs e .

A t th e v e r y s a m e ti m e t h a t

K o b u s R o e l o f s e g o t i n v o l v e d w i th th a t i n v e s ti g a ti o n G e n e r a l S h a d r a c k
S i b iy a g o t – r e o p e n e d th e k id n a p p in g a n d t h e m u r d e r c a s e o f w h ic h
20

G e n e r a l M a g u l e w a s a s u s p e c t a n d h e w a s a ls o a s u s p e c t in t h e l o o ti n g
o f t h e s lu s h fu n d . S o a t a m u c h la t e r s ta g e w h e n G e n e r a l M k h w a n a z i
b e c a m e t h e Ac t in g N a t io n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r h e a ls o d ir e c t e d , b e c a u s e b y
t h e n t h e r e w e r e i n d ic a ti o n s t h a t t h e r e w a s a K w a Z u l u N a t a l l e g o f th e
lo o ti n g o f th e s lu s h f u n d b y C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e .
General

Mk h w a n a z i

th e n

a p p o i n te d

Page 51 of 170

B r i g a d ie r

Si m o n

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
M a d o n s e la , t h e o n e t h a t I k n o w, t o in v e s ti g a te t h a t l e g .

That was a

m u c h s m a ll e r le g , t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n t h a t R o e lo fs e d id w a s m u c h m o r e
c o m p r e h e n s iv e , a n d i t w a s m u c h b ig g e r t h a n th e o n e t h a t M a d o n s e la
d i d i n K Z N C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o th e o n e t h a t C o lo n e l R o e lo fs e w a s c o n d u c t in g m a y
b e d e s c r ib e d a s th e N a ti o n a l I n v e s t ig a ti o n r e la t in g t o th e S e c r e t
A c c o u n t , o r n o t r e a lly ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I w o u l d s a y s o C h a ir,
b e c a u s e . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n )
10

CHAIRPERSON :

J u s t t o d i ff e r e n t i a t e it f r o m t h e o n e i n K Z N ,

d i ff e r e n t ia t e f r o m t h e le g , th e K Z N l e g a s y o u c a l l i t . S o th e N a ti o n a l
le g a n d t h e K Z N l e g w o u l d t h a t h e l p to d i s t in g u is h w h ic h i n v e s ti g a ti o n ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL B OOYSEN :

I would say the

Western Cape leg.
CHAIRPERSON : Oh the Western Cape leg.
MAJOR

GENERAL

JOHAN

WESSEL

BOOYSEN :

Al t h o u g h

the

in v e s t i g a t io n s t h a t C o l o n e l R o e lo fs e d i d a ls o in c l u d e d c a s e s t h a t
occurred here in Gauteng.
CHAIRPERSON :
20

Ye s , b u t h e a n d M a d o n s e l a w e r e d o in g th e s e

in v e s t i g a t io n s i n d e p e n d e n t , i t’s n o t li k e o n e w a s h e l p i n g t h e o th e r, w a s
u n d e r a n o th e r o n e .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESS EL BOOYSEN :

T h e y w e r e d o i n g it

in d e p e n d e n tly C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

I n d e p e n d e n tly, s o i t w o u l d b e i n o r d e r to t a lk a b o u t

t h e m i n d e p e n d e n t ly.

Page 52 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d m a y b e t h e K Z N l e g a n d t h e W e s te r n C a p e le g ,

e v e n t h o u g h m a y b e th e W e s t e r n C a p e fr o m w h a t y o u s a y m ig h t n o t b e
c o m p le t e l y a c c u r a te , b u t i f w e s a y W e s t e r n C a p e l e g t h e n w e k n o w
w h ic h o n e w e ’r e t a l k i n g a b o u t .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

T h a t w il l b e t h e

R o e lo fs e o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y, a lr i g h t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER :
10

C h a i r w e a r e i n f o r m e d th a t C o lo n e l

K o b u s R o e lo fs e w i ll b e c o m i n g t o t h e C o m m is s i o n to g iv e e v i d e n c e
himself.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o t h a t ’s f in e , I j u s t w a n t e d t o m a k e s u r e a s w e
t a lk f u r t h e r I d o n ’ t g e t c o n fu s e d b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s th e K Z N o n e s o i f
w e t a l k a b o u t t h e K Z N l e g th e n I k n o w w h ic h o n e , i f w e t a l k a b o u t t h e
W e s t e r n C a p e o n e t h e n I k n o w w h ic h o n e w e ’r e t a lk i n g a b o u t .
ADV

VERUSCHKA

SEPTEMB ER :

And

then

would

now

be

an

a p p r o p r i a t e t i m e to t a k e t h e s h o r t a d j o u r n m e n t?
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s le t ’s t a k e t h e te a a d j o u r n m e n t , i t ’s n o w tw e n ty

p a s t, w e w il l r e s u m e a t tw e n ty to t w e lv e . W e a d j o u r n .
20

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON : Okay we may proceed.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

General

B o o y s e n w e a r e n o w a t p a r a g r a p h 1 5 0 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t w h ic h is a t p a g e
46.

Yo u h a d a lr e a d y a ll u d e d to N tl e m e z a , s o r r y y o u h a v e a lr e a d y

Page 53 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
a l lu d e d b e fo r e t h e te a a d j o u r n m e n t t o M a jo r G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a ’s
in v o lv e m e n t in th e m a t te r w h ic h h a s b e c o m e c o m m o n l y k n o w n a s th e
R e n d i t io n s M a t t e r s w h ic h in p a r ti c u l a r d e a l t w i t h t h e r e n d i t io n o f c e r t a i n
Zi m b a b w e a n s , i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

To w h a t e x t e n t a r e y o u a w a r e

o f M a j o r G e n e r a l M t l e m e z a ’s i n v o l v e m e n t w i t h …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M s S e p t e m b e r. L e t m e j u s t g o b a c k M a j o r
G e n e r a l B o o y s e n t o y o u r m e e ti n g w i th G e n e r a l M t l e m e z a o n t h e 1
10

January 2014.

I s my u n d e r s ta n d i n g c o r r e c t th a t t h e o n ly – t h e r e a r e

o n ly t w o i s s u e s t h a t h e r a i s e d w it h y o u ? O n e w a s w h a t t h e g e n d e r a n d
r a c ia l d is – r e p r e s e n ta t io n o f p e o p l e u n d e r y o u w e r e a n d t w o t h a t h e
asked

fo r

a

report

fr o m

you?

There

might

have

been

a

m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f a r e p o r t a b o u t w h a t b u t h e a s k e d fo r a r e p o r t fr o m
you?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Those are the only things?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

Th o s e w e r e th e o n ly

t w o t h i n g s C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

General at

p a r a g r a p h 1 5 0 y o u t a lk a b o u t a n e n g a g e m e n t o r a n i n te r a c t io n r a th e r
t h a t y o u h a v e w i th a c e r t a i n Mr I n n o c e n t K h u b a ?
CHAIRPERSON : Maybe I am sorry Ms September again.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o p r o b le m .

Page 54 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
CHAIRPERSON :

Yo u g a v e h i m t h e r e p o r t t h a t y o u g a v e h i m , i s t h a t

r ig h t ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h e n d id y o u h e a r fr o m h i m a b o u t t h a t r e p o r t o r I
d o n o t n e c e s s a r il y – I a m n o t n e c e s s a r ily l o o k in g fo r a d a t e b u t I ju s t
w a n t to s e e i f t h is w a s s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s s o u r g e n t t h a t i t n e e d e d t o
b e d e a l t w i th o n t h e 1 J a n u a r y. H o w q u ic k l y d i d h e d e a l w i th it ?
MAJOR

GENERAL

JOHAN

WESSEL

BOOYSEN:

Chair

my

u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s th a t h e n e e d e d a r e p o r t p e r t a i n i n g to o p e r a t io n a l
10

m a t t e r s . T h a t is w h y I c a l le d in t h o s e o ff i c e r s . B u t t h a t e v i d e n tl y w a s
n o t w h a t h e w a n t e d . H e w a n te d s o m e t h i n g e l s e . A n d w h e n I – w h e n h e
t o l d m e t h a t – t h a t is n o t w h a t h e w a n te d h e t h e n i n d ic a t e d t o m e n o h e
w a n t e d t o k n o w w h y d id I w a n t t o g o t o C a p e To w n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t y o u d i d g iv e h i m a r e p o r t a b o u t C a p e To w n
a t s o m e s ta g e ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

No.

N o C h a ir I d i d

not.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e d i d n o t a s k fo r i t – d id n o t p u r s u e i t?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :
20

No he – when he

r e a l is e d – w e l l w h e n I r e a l is e d t h a t i s n o t w h a t h e w a n te d t o k n o w h e
s a i d to m e n o w I s h o u l d f a v o u r h i m w i t h t h e r e p o r t b u t I ju s t ig n o r e d
him I did not send him one.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e n e v e r p u r s u e d t h a t?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

S o w o u ld i t b e c o r r e c t to s a y fo r a ll i n t e n ts a n d

Page 55 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
p u r p o s e s to th e e x t e n t th a t h e w a n t e d t o s e e y o u o n t h e 1 J a n u a r y f o r
a s k in g t h e r e p o r t – a s k i n g y o u to g iv e h i m a r e p o r t a b o u t t h a t is s u e h e
a s k e d f o r a r e p o r t th a t w h e n h e d i d n o t g e t fr o m y o u h e d i d n o t p u r s u e ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

That would be a

c o r r e c t in t e r p r e t a ti o n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e o n ly o t h e r r e a s o n w h y h e w a n t e d t o m e e t y o u
o n th e 1 J a n u a r y w a s to a s k y o u a b o u t th e g e n d e r a n d r a c ia l
r e p r e s e n t a ti o n o f p e o p l e u n d e r y o u ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d i d y o u g iv e h i m a n a n s w e r o n th a t d a y i n r e g a r d
t o t h e q u e s ti o n o f r a c i a l a n d g e n d e r r e p r e s e n t a ti o n ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a i r I c o u l d n o t g iv e
h i m a – I t o l d h i m I c o u l d g iv e h i m a n a v e r a g e m o r e o r l e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

I did not have the

s t a ts i n fr o n t o f m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

Th e f a c t is h e h a d

t h o s e s t a ts a v a i la b l e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A t h i s o w n o ff ic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :
r u s e to c o m e a n d a s k m e a b o u t e q u i ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 56 of 170

So that to me was a

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : S o I s a id t o h i m lo o k I
h a v e g o t a b o u t s o m a n y c o l o n e ls , s o m a n y c a p t a i n s a n d th e n h e s a id t o
m e h o w m a n y I n d i a n c o l o n e ls h a v e y o u g o t? S o I s a i d , I g u e s s a b o u t
19.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

And then he said to

m e n o , n o , n o y o u g o t to o m a n y I n d ia n s . S o I s a i d t o h i m b u t h e m u s t
r e a l is e w i t h o u r a m a l g a m a ti o n o f o r g a n is e d c r i m e , c o m m e r c ia l c r i m e
a n d th e Sc o r p i o n s I t h e n b e c a m e t h e – I i n h e r i te d th o s e p e r s o n s .
10

I

c o u l d n o t j u s t n o w tu r n t h e m a w a y.
CHAIRPERSON :

D i d h e – d i d h e l a te r o n – a w e e k , t w o w e e k s , a

m o n th , th r e e m o n t h s , s ix m o n t h s r e v e r t t o y o u a b o u t t h e i s s u e o f t h e
g e n d e r a n d r a c i a l r e p r e s e n t a ti o n o f th e p e o p l e u n d e r y o u ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o b o t h o f t h e i s s u e s t h a t h e r a is e d w e r e is s u e s th a t
h e n e v e r to o k f u r th e r ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOO YSEN : He did not Chair and
t h a t is w h y I i n te r p r e t h i s v i s i t o n t h e 1 J a n u a r y a b o u t e q u i ty a n d t h a t –
a n d a tr i p t o C a p e To w n a s a r u s e to li n k u p w i th th e p r o v i n c i a l
20

c o m m i s s io n e r.
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A t t h a t p a r tic u l a r t i m e
t h e n a t io n a l c o m m i s s io n e r w a s G e n e r a l R i a h P h iy e g a .
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESS EL BOOYSEN : And later on it became

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
c le a r t o m e th a t th e r e w a s – b e c a u s e i n m y d is c i p l in a r y h e a r i n g G e n e r a l
P h iy e g a a ls o t e s ti fi e d .

A n d i n th a t h e a r i n g I o p e n l y a c c u s e d o f

p r o t e c t in g G e n e r a l N g o b e n i . A n d s h e s a i d to m e n o s h e is n o t. A n d I
p o i n t e d o u t t o h e r w e ll y o u a r e a w a r e o f t h e fa c t th a t t h e r e a r e t h e s e
a l le g a ti o n s o f c o r r u p t io n s t h a t – c o r r u p ti o n t h a t is b e i n g i n v e s ti g a te d .
A n d s h e w a s u n d e r o a t h . A n d s h e s a id n o it is n o t tr u e . Th e n I s a i d –
a n d I k n e w th a t s h e w a s g o i n g to s a y t h a t s o I b r o u g h t w i t h m e t o m y
h e a r in g my a p p lic a ti o n in t h e J ib a r e v i e w m a tt e r i n w h i c h I m e n ti o n e d
h e r a s a r e s p o n d e n t . I th i n k s h e w a s r e s p o n d e n t n u m b e r 3 . S o I g a v e
10

her the document.

I s a i d y o u t h e r e s p o n d e n t i n w h i c h I d e t a il t h e

nature of the corruption so you c annot say that you did not know about
it .
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

So I – what I am

tr y i n g t o s a y is t o m e t h e r e w a s a p p e a r s t o h a v e b e e n a n a ll ia n c e
between General Ngobeni and General Phiyega.
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

A n d w i th N tl e m e z a

b e i n g a p p o i n t e d I t h i n k a n d t h a t is m y o b s e r v a t io n C h a ir t h a t h e – o n e
20

o f h is fir s t ta s k s w e r e t o g o a n d t a k e c a r e o f t h a t p a r t ic u l a r
in v e s t i g a t io n a g a i n s t G e n e r a l N g o b e n i a n d t h e n s e c o n d ly t o g o a n d
in t e r fe r e w i t h th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n o f C o l o n e l K o b u s R o e l o fs e .
CHAIRPERSON :

C e r t a i n ly t h e r e is n o t h i n g t h a t w a s s a i d a t t h e

m e e ti n g a t y o u r m e e ti n g w i t h h i m t h a t s h o w e d w h y t h e s e tw o is s u e s
w e r e s o u r g e n t a n d t h e fa c t th a t l a t e r o n h e n e v e r p u r s u e d t h e m o r

Page 58 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
f o ll o w e d t h e m u p m i g h t s u g g e s t t h a t – m i g h t m e a n t h a t – t h e r e m i g h t
n o t h a v e b e e n a p r o p e r ju s ti fi c a t io n t o w a n t t o m e e t o n t h e 1 J a n u a r y
t h e s e th i n g s c o u l d h a v e b e e n d e a l t w it h i n t h e n o r m a l c o u r s e ?

Okay

thank you.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

B e fo r e w e

g e t t o p a r a g r a p h 1 5 0 c a n y o u t u r n to p a g e 4 5 a n d a t p a r a g r a p h 1 4 6 ?
Yo u m a k e t h e s t a t e m e n t t h a t t h e r e a l e x t e n t o f t h e n e f a r i o u s a l li a n c e
b e t w e e n M a jo r G e n e r a l N t l e m e z a , M r R ic h a r d M d l u li w a s l a id b a r e in
t h e a ff id a v i t o f M r I n n o c e n t K h u b a .
10

C a n y o u p l e a s e e x p l a in w h a t i s

meant by that?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BO OYSEN :

Chair Mr Innocent

K h u b a is fr o m I P I D . W h e n M r M c Br i d e a n d m y s e l f m e t w h e n I r e t u r n e d
b a c k to w o r k I m e t M r K h u b a a n d h e w a s p a r t o f t h e t e a m a p p o i n t e d b y
M r M c B r i d e . S o th e y w e r e r e v is i ti n g t h e P a n d a y i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d th e
in v e s t i g a t io n s t h a t h a d b e c o m e d o r m a n t in m y a b s e n c e .

But at the

s a m e t i m e o b v i o u s l y o n e d is c u s s e s o th e r is s u e s a s w e l l a n d a t t h a t
ti m e t h e y w e r e u n d e r p r e s s u r e b e c a u s e o f t h e s o c a l le d r e n d i ti o n th in g .
And …
CHAIRPERSON :
20

B u t ju s t t o c l a r i fy w h e n y o u t a l k a b o u t I P I D o r M r

K h u b a a n d M c B r i d e i n v e s ti g a ti n g t h e P a n d a y m a t te r w h a t y o u m e a n is
t h e y w e r e n o t d o i n g t h e in v e s t i g a t io n t h a t y o u a n d y o u r t e a m w e r e
d o i n g b u t t h e y w e r e in v e s t i g a t in g w h e t h e r t h e r e m a y h a v e b e e n a n y
m is c o n d u c t o r o t h e r u n a c c e p t a b le c o n d u c t o n t h e p a r t o f a n y m e m b e r o f
t h e p o li c e in r e g a r d t o th e c o n d u c t o f t h a t i n v e s ti g a ti o n ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL B OOYSEN :

Page 59 of 170

N o C h a ir w h a t

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
h a p p e n e d is w h e n I r e t u r n e d b a c k t o m y o ffi c e C h a ir w o u ld r e c a ll I
r e c e i v e d a t e l e p h o n e c a ll fr o m M r M c Br id e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : O b v i o u s ly h e h a d n o w
b e c o m e a w a r e o f w h a t w a s g o i n g o n a n d I d o n o t k n o w i n t h e m e d ia o r
whether someone reported that to him.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

I then gave him a

report.
10

CHAIRPERSON : YEs.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOO YSEN : And because IPID had
o v e r s ig h t o v e r S A P S
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

We decided and for

t a c tic a l r e a s o n s a s w e ll .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : F o r I P I D to ta k e o v e r
t h e s e in v e s t i g a t io n s .
CHAIRPERSON :
20

O h s o t h e y – t h e y e ff e c ti v e ly w e r e g o i n g t o d o w h a t

y o u r te a m h a d b e e n d o in g .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : E x a c t ly C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

B u t w o u l d t h a t f a l l w i th i n t h e ir m a n d a te ?

My

u n d e r s t a n d in g h a s b e e n t h a t t h e ir s i s t o lo o k a t c o m p la in t s a b o u t t h e
c o n d u c t o f p o li c e o ffic e r s a s o p p o s e d to i n v e s t ig a ti n g t h e a c t u a l c r i m e s
c o m m i t t e d b y p e o p le w h o a r e n o t p o l ic e o ff ic e r s ?

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir t h e i r m a n d a t e i s
twofold.

O n e is to i n v e s t ig a t e c e r t a i n c r i m i n a l o ff e n c e s a g a in s t S A P S

m e m b e r s li k e d e a t h i n c u s t o d y. R a p e b y p o l ic e o ff ic e r s .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : And corruption.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A n d t h e n th e r e is a ls o
t h a t – a l s o t h a t n ic e l i t tl e r i d e a t t h e b o t to m t h a t s a y s a n y c a s e t h a t t h e
h e a d o f I P I D d e c i d e t o a ll o c a te t o I P I D .
10

CHAIRPERSON : Oh.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BO OYSEN :

The second – the

s e c o n d le g o f th e ir m a n d a te i s i f t h e y i n v e s t ig a t e w i t h th e I C – w i t h th e
p r e v i o u s I C D A c t th e y c o u ld m a k e r e c o m m e n d a t io n s a b o u t d i s c i p li n a r y
s t e p s b u t w i t h t h e n e w I P I D A c t th e y – t h e y c a n a c t u a ll y in s t r u c t th e
p o li c e t o i n i t ia t e d is c i p li n a r y s t e p s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

But they can do the

c r i m i n a l i n v e s ti g a ti o n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. N o th a n k y o u I ju s t w a n te d t o u n d e r s t a n d
20

that. Thank you.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o p r o b le m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y I in t e r r u p te d y o u .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

N o p r o b le m C h a ir.

General

B o o y s e n y o u a t ta c h a c o p y o f a n a ff i d a v i t b y Mr In n o c e n t K h u b a w h ic h
is m a r k e d J W B 1 9 a n d t h a t c a n b e f o u n d i n E x h i b i t Z [ B ] .

Page 61 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s t h a t B f o r B e a tr i c e ? Is th a t B f o r B e a tr ic e ?
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r D f o r D o r is ?
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : B f o r B e a t r ic e .
CHAIRPERSON : Oh.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I t is o n e o f t h e l e v e r a r c h f i le s
C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d i t is p a g e 2 9 1 i t is t h e fir s t
10

annexure in the bundle.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

W e a r e in f o r m e d th a t Mr

I n n o c e n t K h u b a w i ll a l s o b e p r o v i d i n g e v i d e n c e b e fo r e t h i s c o m m i s s i o n
a n d s o w e d o n o t in t e n d t o g o th r o u g h t h e d e t a il o f t h i s a ffi d a v i t b u t
m e r e ly ju s t t o h i g h li g h t c e r t a i n a s p e c ts o f it . G e n e r a l B o o y s e n c a n y o u
in s u m m a r y in f o r m t h e i m p o r t a n c e o f t h is a ffi d a v i t f o r p u r p o s e s o f y o u r
evidence?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I n s u m m a r y C h a ir a n d
a s e a r ly a s 2 0 1 3 w h e n G e n e r a l D r a m a t w a s th e h e a d o f t h e H a w k s
20

C h a ir w o u l d r e c a ll t h a t t h e r e n o w w e r e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s a g a i n s t R ic h a r d
M d lu li .

T h e i n it i a l i n v e s t ig a ti o n I d i d n o t m e n t i o n – I d o n o t t h i n k – I

m i g h t h a v e m e n t i o n e d th a t i n m y s t a te m e n t .

T h e i n it i a l in v e s t i g a t io n

in t o th e a l le g e d m u r d e r c a s e a n d th e k i d n a p p in g c a s e a t s o m e p o i n t i n
ti m e h a d a ls o b e e n d o n e b y G e n e r a l M t le m e z a b e f o r e h e w a s – h e
b e c a m e t h e h e a d o f t h e H a w k s . I c a n n o t r e c a l l w h a t h is p o s i ti o n w a s .

Page 62 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
H e b a s ic a l ly w h i t e - w a s h e d t h a t i n v e s t ig a ti o n t o s a y t h a t th e r e is n o
case. But what…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa s th a t i n v e s t ig a ti o n a g a i n s t M d lu li ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : B u t t h a t w a s a w is h y
w a s h y i n v e s ti g a t i o n t h a t h e c o n d u c t e d C h a ir.

W h a t e m e r g e s fr o m

K h u b a ’s s ta t e m e n t is t h a t a s e a r ly a s 2 0 1 3 t h e r e s e e m s t o h a v e b e e n
a n u n h o ly a l li a n c e b e tw e e n M d l u l i a n d N t le m e z a t o g e t r id o f D r a m a t.
10

B e c a u s e a ft e r t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s ’ s o c a l le d e x p o s e o n t h e r e n d i t io n
m a t t e r D r a m a t g e ts s u s p e n d e d a n d t h e y a r e n o w f a c i n g D r a m a t a n d
S i b iy a a r e n o w f a c i n g th e c h a r g e s o f r e n d i ti o n .

T h e r e w a s a n i n i t ia l

r e p o r t w h i c h I n n o c e n t K h u b a fr o m I P I D w r o te t h a t I th i n k w e n t t o
P a r li a m e n t in w h ic h h e i n d i c a t e s t h a t t h e r e a p p e a r s t o b e a c a s e to
a n s w e r b y G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d S h a d r a c k S i b iy a . B u t t h e in v e s t i g a t io n
h a d n o t b e e n c o n c l u d e d a n d I s ti ll r e c a ll a s k i n g M r K h u b a I n n o c e n t I
s a i d t o h i m , I n n o c e n t w e b o t h in v e s ti g a t o r s s o m e th i n g is n o t r i g h t h e r e .
W h y d i d y o u a d v a n c e a r e p o r t o n t h e in v e s t ig a ti o n w h i c h y o u k n o w w a s
n o t c o m p l e t e y e t ? A n d h is a n s w e r t o m e b e c a u s e I s a i d t o h i m , I a m
20

g o i n g t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e y o u I a m g o in g t o b e a l a w y e r n o w I a m g o in g to
c r o s s - e x a m in e y o u . A n d t h a t i s h o w I s p o k e t o h i m . B e c a u s e i t d i d n o t
make sense.

Yo u d o n o t s e n d a r e p o r t u n l e s s y o u r i n v e s ti g a t i o n is

c o m p le t e d a n d h is a n s w e r to m e w a s , t h e r e w a s p r e s s u r e o n h i m fr o m
Advocate Mosing.

Now the same Mosing who was involved in my

m a t t e r a n d t h e s a m e M o s i n g w h o w a s in v o lv e d i n s e t t in g t h e s ta g e t o

Page 63 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
have the Amigos case withdrawn.

H e s a i d t h e r e is p r e s s u r e f r o m

A d v o c a t e M o s in g t o p r o v i d e h i m w i t h e i t h e r th e r e p o r t o r t h e d o c k e t I
c a n n o t r e c a ll . B u t w h a t – b u t th e n c o m e s t o l ig h t is u n b e k n o w n t o m e
a t t h e ti m e t h a t I w a n t e d t o f ly t o C a p e To w n I o n l y e s t a b li s h e d n o w
la t e r o n w h y t h e r e i s th i s a n i m o s i ty t o w a r d s G e n e r a l D r a m a t fr o m
N tl e m e z a ’s s i d e . Ac c o r d i n g t o K h u b a N tl e m e z a p u t p r e s s u r e o n h i m t o
fi n a l is e t h e i n v e s t i g a t io n .

A n d I d o n o t w a n t t o q u o te fr o m th e

s t a te m e n t b u t th e w o r d s t o th e e ff e c t w e r e u s e d t h a t i f th e r e m ig h t – i f
h e e x p e r i e n c e s p r o b l e m s R ic h a r d N d lu li h a d t o ld h i m v i a N t le m e z a n o w
10

t h a t h e w il l l o o k a f t e r h i m .

At some stage he even phoned Innocent

K h u b a o n h is w i fe ’s p h o n e a n d h e w o u ld c o m e t o K h u b a ’s h o u s e ,
I n n o c e n t K h u b a ’s h o u s e .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

Before

d e a li n g

with

th a t

p a r t ic u l a r p h o n e c a ll is t h e p a r a g r a p h y o u r e f e r r i n g t o a t p a g e 2 9 6
p a r a g r a p h 5 .11 o f E x h i b i t Z [ B ] ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : 296. Paragraph?
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : 5 .11 a t th e b o t t o m .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :
20

O k a y.

If y o u c o u l d j u s t t h e n

r e a d t h a t – t h a t p a r ti c u l a r p a r a g r a p h i n to t h e r e c o r d ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :
“ Ag a i n i n O c t o b e r 2 0 1 3 t h i s i s n o w t h e s t a te m e n t b y
I n n o c e n t K h u b a C h a ir, m y w i f e c a ll e d m e w h il e I w a s
w a t c h in g T V a n d i n fo r m e d m e t h a t M l e g a z i r e f e r r i n g
t o G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a w a s a t t h e g a te .

Page 64 of 170

She then

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
h a n d e d m e h e r p h o n e a n d h e r e q u e s te d m e t o o r d e r
t h e s e c u r it y t o o p e n fo r h i m a s h e h a d v a l u a b l e
in f o r m a ti o n to t e ll m e . W h e n h e w a s i n s i d e h e s a id
t h a t h e w a s – h e h a s u r g e n t i n f o r m a t i o n t o te ll . H e
s a i d o n Fr id a y h e w a s a t th e a ir p o r t a n d h e m e t w i t h
N d l u l i w h o r e q u e s t e d h i m t o t e ll m e th a t I m u s t n o t
b e a f r a id w h e n d e a li n g w i t h r e n d i ti o n c a s e b e c a u s e
there were people who were looking after me.

He

s a i d h e w a s a s k e d b y M d lu li t o d e p l o y p e o p l e f o r m y
10

s a f e t y a n d t h a t i f I s e e a n y s u s p ic i o u s c a r b e h i n d m e
I s h o u ld c a ll h i m .
met

or

spoke

in v e s t i g a t io n

I was surprised because I never

with

with

Mdluli.

C o lo n e l

During

my

e n t ir e

Mokunkwe

he

never

m e n ti o n e d N d lu li ’s n a m e .”
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

A n d th a t a p p e a r s to b e th e

e x c e r p t t h a t y o u w e r e t h e n r e fe r r i n g t o ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir b u t i f I c a n j u s t
c o n c l u d e m y s u m m a r y o f h is s t a t e m e n t .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : P l e a s e .
20

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

Th e d a y t h a t D r a m a t

w a s s u s p e n d e d I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h e y m e t o r w h e th e r h e h a d
p h o n e d K h u b a b u t it is r e fl e c t e d in h i s s ta t e m e n t N tl e m e z a to l d h i m h is
day had now come to head the Hawks.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d o n th a t p o in t c a n I t a k e y o u
t h e n to th e p a r t ic u l a r p a r a g r a p h y o u m a y b e r e fe r r i n g t o w h i c h is

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
p a r a g r a p h 5 .1 3 o n p a g e 2 9 7 .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : 5.13?
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

5 . 1 3 j u s t fo r a c c u r a c y o n

r e c o r d . C a n y o u in f a c t if I m a y w i th y o u r l e a v e C h a i r j u s t to p la c e o n
r e c o r d 5 . 1 3 s ta t e s :
“I only informed one of the IPID employees whom I
tr u s t e d a b o u t w h a t h a p p e n e d w h e n G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a
v is it e d m e . W h e n I s e n t a r e p o r t t o A d v o c a te M o s i n g
G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a s t o p p e d a s k i n g m e a b o u t t h e
10

report.

T h e la s t t i m e I m e t w i t h G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a

w a s o n 6 . 1 2 .2 1 4 a t W i m p y C y c a d C e n t r e I t h i n k .”
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C y c a d C e n tr e .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

C y c a d C e n tr e . T h a t is f o r th e

record CYCAD.
“ H e h a d j u s t c a l l e d m e to t e l l m e t h e g o o d n e w s .

I

a r r iv e d a t a p p r o x i m a te ly 1 5 : 0 0 w i t h m y w i f e b u t s h e
r e m a in e d i n t h e c a r. I f o u n d h i m s e a t e d i n s i d e . H e
s a i d th a t h is ti m e t o m o v e t o t h e H a w k s h a d a r r i v e d
a n d t h a t th e r e w a s g o i n g to b e a h i t o n D r a m a t . H e
20

e n c o u r a g e d m e t o w a t c h t h e n e w s o n T V in t h e n e x t
c o m i n g w e e k s . W h a t h e t o ld m e h a p p e n e d – w h a t h e
t o l d m e h a p p e n e d e x a c tly a s h e s a i d .

His last

c o m m u n ic a ti o n w i th m y w i f e w a s o n 3 1 . 1 . 2 0 1 5 w h e r e
h e s e n t h e r a m e s s a g e a t 1 6 : 0 6 .”
Is t h a t th e s e c t io n th a t y o u w e r e r e f e r r in g t o ?

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

Th a t is w h a t I a m

r e fe r r i n g t o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

W e l l M r M c Br id e a l s o s a i d in h is e v id e n c e th a t M r

Khuba had told him that General Ntlemeza had put pressure on him to
fi n a l is e t h e r e p o r t r e la t in g t o t h e r e n d i t io n m a t t e r. A n d t h a t h e h a d a l s o
a l e r t e d h i m t h a t s o m e th in g w a s g o i n g to h a p p e n t o G e n e r a l D r a m a t o n
a c e r ta i n d a y a n d i t s e e m s t h a t s o m e t h in g d i d h a p p e n a n d t h a t is I th i n k
t h e s u s p e n s io n if I a m n o t m is t a k e n . Ye s t h a n k y o u . S o i t s e e ms i f t h is
– i f M r K h u b a ’s e v i d e n c e is c o r r e c t i t s e e m s th a t G e n e r a l N t le m e z a
10

k n e w i n a d v a n c e w h a t w a s g o i n g to h a p p e n t o G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d t h a t
h e m a y h a v e k n o w n o r e x p e c t e d th a t h e w o u l d b e a p p o i n t e d i f a n d w h e n
General Dramat was not there.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BO OYSE N:

Chair that is how I

in t e r p r e t e v e n t s . W h y w o u l d N t l e m e z a w h o a t t h e t i m e w a s o u t s i d e t h e
H a w k s p u t p r e s s u r e o n M r K h u b a to e x p e d i te h is i n v e s t ig a ti o n ?

And

t h e n fr o m t h e N a ti o n a l P r o s e c u t i n g A u t h o r it y s i d e y o u h a v e A d v o c a t e
M o s i n g w a n t in g r e p o r t s b e fo r e t h e in v e s t i g a ti o n is fi n a l is e d .
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :
20

S o to m e i t is c l e a r

t h a t t h e r e w a s a s t r a t e g y f r o m t h e N a t io n a l P r o s e c u t in g A u th o r it y s i d e
a n d I h e r e I w i ll s a y fr o m M o s i n g ’s s id e I d o n o t k n o w a t w h o s e b e h e s t
b u t f r o m h i s – fr o m t h e N PA’s s i d e a n d f r o m t h e p o l ic e ’s s i d e N t le m e z a
to get rid of General Dramat.

A n d t h e r e a s o n w a s s i m p l e C h a ir.

G e n e r a l D r a m a t w a s t h e o n e t h e d r iv i n g f o r c e p u t – o n a – f o r a n u m b e r
o f i n v e s ti g a t i o n s .

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

I n te r a l ia th e S e c r e t

S e r v ic e s a c c o u n t , t h e lo o ti n g a n d i t w a s – i t h a d b e c o m e c o m m o n
c a u s e b e f o r e I r e t u r n e d t o w o r k th a t G e n e r a l D r a m a t w a s s u p p o r ti n g m e
in m y in v e s ti g a t io n s .

B e c a u s e h e b a s i c a lly t o o k m y s i d e w h e n t h e r e

w a s t h is d is a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n my s e l f a n d G e n e r a l P h iy e g a .
CHAIRPERSON :

I t is – w e l l w e w il l s e e a t t h e e n d o f t h e w h o l e

c o m m i s s io n fi n d i n g s w i ll b e m a d e b u t t h e r e c e r t a in ly a r e c e r t a i n
fi s s u r e s o f e v i d e n c e t h a t I a m h e a r i n g fr o m y o u t h a t I h e a r d fr o m M r
10

M c Br i d e .

Th a t s h o u ld b e q u i te c o n c e r n in g i f i t is tr u e .

The Law

E n f o r c e m e n t is v e r y i m p o r t a n t a n d i f L a w E n f o r c e m e n t is n o t d o i n g i ts
jo b p r o p e r l y th e n w e h a v e n o c o u n tr y. S o – b u t I a m h o p i n g t h a t m o r e
and

more

people

within

Law

Enforcement who

know

what

was

h a p p e n in g w i ll c o m e f o r w a r d a n d w il l n o t b e s c a r e d , w i ll c o m e f o r w a r d
a n d g iv e e v i d e n c e a n d t e ll t h e n a t i o n e x a c tl y w h a t h a s b e e n h a p p e n i n g
b e c a u s e i f t h e L a w E n f o r c e m e n t A g e n c i e s a r e n o t w o r k i n g t h e n w e w il l
n o t h a v e a c o u n tr y.

W e h a v e g o t t o f in d o u t e x a c t ly w h a t h a s b e e n

h a p p e n in g s o t h a t t h i s c o m m is s i o n c a n m a k e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s a s t o
what should be done to make sure that those things never happen
20

a g a in .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

C h a ir I a g r e e t h e

p r o b le m w i t h t h a t is a n d M r M c B r i d e c a ll s i t th e B lu e C u r t a in .
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

C h a ir b e l ie v e m e i f

a n y p e r s o n a t w h a t e v e r le v e l b e c o m e s a w h is t le - b lo w e r I a m t a lk in g

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
a b o u t S A P S I a m n o t ta lk in g a b o u t a n y o t h e r d e p a r t m e n t . Yo u a r e d e a d
in t h e w a te r.

Yo u a r e o s tr a c is e d , y o u a r e w o r k e d o u t .

They – in my

in s t a n c e y o u g e t p r o s e c u te d , y o u g e t s u s p e n d e d a n d d e s p i te o f c o u r t
h e a r in g s c o u r ts b a s ic a ll y a g r e e in g t h a t t h e r e is n o c a s e a g a in s t m e ,
b e i n g e x o n e r a t e d t h e y w il l n o t l e a v e y o u a l o n e .
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : And …
CHAIRPERSON :

And not everybody can – can stand up to that for a

lo n g t i m e .
10

M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : T h a t is t h e o n e C h a ir
a n d t h e o th e r t h i n g is C h a ir t h e p r o m o ti o n s y s t e m i n t h e p o lic e in m y
v ie w s h o u l d b e r e v i s e d . B e c a u s e I k n o w a n u m b e r o f o ffi c e r s th e y w i ll
n o t s e t a fo o t w r o n g o r r e p o r t s o m e th i n g b e c a u s e th e y a r e s c a r e d th a t
t h e y w i ll n o t b e p r o m o t e d . C h a ir I h a v e s a t o n t h o s e p r o m o ti o n – h o w
t o – i n t h e p a s t h o w i t w o r k e d is y o u h a d to a t ta in a c e r ta in
q u a li fi c a t io n
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :
e x a m t o b e c o m e a s e r g e a n t.

20

Yo u h a d t o w r i t e a n

Yo u h a d t o w r i t e a n e x a m t o b e c o m e a

w a r r a n t o ffic e r. Yo u h a d to w r i te a n e x a m t o b e c o m e a c o m m i s s io n e d
o ffic e r a n d t h e n a t t e n d a c o u r s e t o b e c o m e a li e u t e n a n t . T h e n y o u h a d
t o a t te n d e v e r y s e c o n d y e a r fo r e v e r y s e c o n d r a n k y o u h a d t o a t t e n d
a n o t h e r c o u r s e . S o c u r r e n tl y h o w i t w o r k s . T h e – a p o s t is a d v e r ti s e d
a n d w h e t h e r y o u h a v e t h e r i g h t a t tr i b u te s o r q u a l i fic a ti o n s C h a ir I s a t
o n t h o s e p a n e ls a t s e n i o r l e v e l w h e r e t h e – i n v a r i a b l y t h e d e c is i o n s a r e

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
t a k e n b e f o r e a n y o f th e c a n d id a t e s a p p e a r. It is a f a r c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h o is g o in g to g e t i n to t h a t p o s t?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s C h a ir. I t is – th e
p r o m o ti o n a l s y s t e m i n S A P S i s a c o m p le t e f a r c e . I n m o s t o f t h e p a n e ls
t h a t I s a t a n d o n e o f – I s a t o n s o m e p a n e ls w i t h a t – f o r a v e r y s e n i o r
p o s t w i th G e n e r a l N c u b e n i a n d w e w o u l d s i t th e r e a n d w e in d e p e n d e n tl y
h a v e to m a r k c a n d i d a t e s o n v a r i o u s a s p e c ts a n d o n c e t h e c a n d id a t e
le a v e s t h e r o o m s h e w o u ld a s k e a c h o n e o f u s . J o h a n t h e n I w i ll s a y 4 .
W h y d o y o u g iv e h i m 4 ? T h e n I w i ll s s a y w e l l t h a t i s – a n d th e n – s o
10

w h a t I e v e n tu a l ly d id C h a ir is i f t h e c a n d i d a t e d e s e r v e d a 6 I w il l g i v e
him a 6.

I f h e d e s e r v e d a 3 I w il l p u t a 3 th e r e .

If she said to me,

J o h a n t h e n I li s t e n w h a t t h e r e s t s a y I w i ll s a y n o t h e y a ll s a y a 6 I a l s o
say a 6.

B u t th e n I p u t m y 3 th e r e .

ti m e w h o i s g o i n g t o b e p r o m o t e d .

Because they decide before the
I t i s v e r y r a r e t h a t th e c a n d i d a t e

a n d C h a ir b e li e v e m e i t h a s g o t n o t h in g t o d o w i th r a c e .

I am not

t a lk in g a b o u t w h i te s a n d b la c k s h e r e t h e r e a r e m a n y, m a n y b l a c k
o ffic e r s , g o o d o ffi c e r s t h a t a r e b e i n g o v e r s e e i n g b e c a u s e th e y d o t h e
r ig h t t h i n g . T h e y w o r k e d w i t h m e . I h a v e s a t o n th o s e p a n e ls . I t a l k o f
experience.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m . W e ll i f w e a r e to m a k e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s a s t o
w h a t s h o u l d b e d o n e in th e f u t u r e to a v o i d s o m e o f t h e p r o b l e ms th a t
m a y b e th e L a w E n f o r c e m e n t A g e n c ie s h a v e fo u n d th e m s e lv e s i n i t
w o u ld b e i m p o r t a n t to h a v e a s m u c h i n fo r m a t i o n a s p o s s i b l e fr o m
p e o p l e o n t h e g r o u n d w h o k n o w h o w t h e s e th i n g s w o r k . S o p e o p le lik e
y o u a n d o th e r p e o p le a n d o r g a n i s a t io n s t h a t m a y b e i n v o l v e d in L a w

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
E n f o r c e m e n t A g e n c i e s w h o w is h t o m a k e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s a s t o w h a t
s h o u l d b e l o o k e d a t in te r ms o f r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s w h o w i s h to m a k e
s u b m is s io n s y o u k n o w i n d u e c o u r s e w il l y o u k n o w w il l b e a l lo w e d a n d
t h e y m u s t b e r e a d y t o m a k e s u b m is s io n s a s t o w h a t s h o u l d b e d o n e . O f
c o u r s e b e fo r e y o u c a n m a k e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s y o u – a b o u t w h a t s h o u ld
b e d o n e y o u n e e d t o k n o w w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d a n d t h a t is w h y w e n e e d
t o g o t h r o u g h th is s o t h a t t h e m e a s u r e s th a t m u s t b e t a k e n m u s t m a t c h
w h a t th e p r o b le m w a s t h a t is s o u g h t t o b e a d d r e s s e d .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir a n d I a m s a y in g
10

t h a t i n th e c o n te x t o f .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

People

w a n ti n g

to

come forward.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

To e x p o s e t h e r o t i n

t h e p o li c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A n d b e li e v e m e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

I t i s – c o r r u p t i o n is

r if e i n t h e p o li c e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I h a v e b e e n o u t o f th e
p o li c e f o r tw o y e a r s b u t I s ti ll w o r k w i t h L a w E n fo r c e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

A n d I a m n o t s a y in g

e v e r y o n e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

I

am

l e v e ll in g

a c c u s a ti o n s a g a i n s t p r o s e c u to r s h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

And

s e n io r

p o l ic e

o ffic e r s b u t t h e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f p r o s e c u t o r s C h a ir th a t I s t il l w o r k
with.
10

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t d o a .
CHAIRPERSON : A good job.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A n h o n e s t d a y ’s j o b .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

And

a

number

of

p o li c e m e n .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

But

u n fo r t u n a t e ly

t h o s e p e o p l e a r e a t th e m e r c y.
20

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Of people who are

a p p o i n t e d a b o v e th e m w h o a r e d o in g t h e b i d d i n g o f t h e p e o p l e a b o v e
them.
CHAIRPERSON :

Hm.

No, no thanks.

I a m a l s o t a l k i n g e x a c tly fr o m

the same point.

S o i t is n o t ju s t a q u e s ti o n o f a d d r e s s i n g i s s u e s a t

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
S A P S t h a t p e o p le m i g h t b e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t th a t h a v e g o t n o th i n g t o d o
w i t h th e C o m m i s s i o n .

I t i s to t h e e x t e n t t h a t c e r ta i n - a c e r t a i n

e n v ir o n m e n t m a y b e p r o v i d i n g a f e r ti l e g r o u n d f o r c o r r u p ti o n w i th in L a w
E n f o r c e m e n t A g e n c i e s . S o t h a t – th a t n e e d s t o b e lo o k e d a t if w e w a n t
t o m a k e s u r e t h a t s u c h c o r r u p ti o n d o e s n o t c o n t i n u e . Th a n k y o u .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

General Booysen

y o u to u c h e d o n th e is s u e i n r e l a ti o n to H u m a n R e s o u r c e s a n d t h e
a p p o i n t m e n t o f p e o p l e w i t h i n t h e p o li c e .

In y o u r a ff i d a v i t y o u t a l k

s p e c i f ic a l ly a b o u t M a j o r - G e n e r a l N t l e m e z a ’s a p p r o a c h to p r o m o t io n s i n
10

p a r t ic u l a r. C a n y o u p l e a s e e x p la in t h e d e t a i l i n r e l a t i o n t o t h a t?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a ir h is t o r i c a lly h o w

t h e p r o m o t i o n s w o r k i n p r o v in c e s . Th e p r o v i n c e s a r e – t h e y d e a l w i th
t h e p r o m o ti o n s i n th e ir o w n p r o v i n c e . F o r i n s t a n c e i f a C a p t a i n ’s p o s t
w a s a d v e r t is e d th e s h o r t – th e l o n g lis t i n g w il l b e d o n e a t p r o v in c i a l
le v e l. T h e s h o r t lis t in g w il l b e d o n e . T h e i n t e r v ie w s w il l – e v e r y t h i n g
w i ll b e d o n e a t p r o v i n c i a l l e v e l .
n a t io n a l .

Th e n t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n s g o t o

A t n a ti o n a l t h e y w il l e it h e r s a n c t io n i t o r i f th e y th i n k t h a t

y o u r e q u i ty p r o fi l e m i g h t n o t b e r ig h t t h e y m ig h t t a k e t h e n u m b e r tw o
c a n d i d a t e w h ic h i s n o t a p r o b le m .
20

T h e p r o b l e m s ta r t e d w h e n

G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a b e c a m e t h e H e a d o f t h e H a w k s .
w h o le p r o m o ti o n s y s te m o f t h e H a w k s .

H e h ij a c k e d t h e

A ll t h e p o s ts t h a t w e r e

a d v e r t is e d w it h in t h e H a w k s w e r e d e a l t w i t h fr o m h is o ff ic e .

He

e x c lu d e d t h e Pr o v in c i a l H e a d s – a ll o f u s . A t a m e e t i n g a t P o l o k w a n e I
t o o k is s u e w it h th a t a n d I s a i d t o h i m w e a s Pr o v in c i a l H e a d s – n o w I
w a s t a l k i n g o n b e h a lf o f a l l t h e n in e p r o v i n c e s b e c a u s e w e d is c u s s e d i t

Page 73 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
a m o n g s t o u r s e lv e s t h e P r o v i n c ia l H e a d s . I s a i d w e a s P r o v i n c ia l H e a d s
w e – w e k n o w t h e p e o p l e i n th e p r o v i n c e s . W e k n o w th e d y n a m ic s o f
c r i m e in t h e p r o v i n c e s . I n K Z N fo r i n s t a n c e I k n o w a b o u t f a c ti o n fi g h t s
– p o li ti c a l k il li n g s . I d o n o t k n o w a b o u t g a n g s te r is m t h a t o c c u r in C a p e
To w n . S o I w o u l d k n o w w h ic h – th e p r o fi l e o f th e p e r s o n w h o n e e d s t o
b e a p p o i n te d a n d t h e n h e b a s ic a l ly m a d e s o m e e x c u s e s a y i n g t o m e n o
w e ll h e w i ll i n c o r p o r a t e u s i n t h e – i n t h e p r o c e s s e s i n th e fu t u r e w h i c h
h e n e v e r d id b u t w h a t h e d i d i n f a c t d o - w h ic h I f o u n d v e r y s tr a n g e .
He
10

co-opted

a

p o lic e

M a jo r - G e n e r a l N g e m b e .

o ff ic e r

fr o m

KwaZulu -Natal

N o w s h e w a s o u ts i d e t h e H a w k s .

Sh e was

fr o m th e S A P S s i d e a n d s h e w a s a t H u m a n R e s o u r c e s i n K w a Z u l u - N a t a l
a n d h e w o u l d t a k e h e r a l l o v e r t h e c o u n tr y t o d o i n t e r v ie w s a n d
a p p o i n t m e n ts . I b u m p e d in t o h e r o n e d a y i n t h e li f t a t K w a Z u l u - N a t a l
and she said

to

me

n o s h e is

– she

has

been co-opted by

G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a t o d o t h e s e a p p o i n t m e n t s a n d s h e s a id t o m e i t is – i t
is n o t h e r f ie l d a n d s h e d o e s n o t k n o w a n y t h i n g a b o u t in v e s ti g a t io n s .
C h a ir a t K w a Z u l u - N a t a l f o r i n s t a n c e - I a l w a y s s a y t h e p e r s o n w h o
c a r r i e s th e p u r s e c a l ls th e s h o ts . S o t h e r e w h e r e y o u – y o u r H R is a
v e r y i m p o r t a n t c o m p o n e n t o f – o f a c o m p a n y o r a u n i t . In m y in s t a n c e
20

f o r i n s ta n c e th e r e w a s a C a p t a i n t h e n s h e i s a C o lo n e l n o w –
Sonnekus.

S h e w a s t h e S u p p o r t H e a d d e a li n g w i t h fi n a n c e s , d e a li n g

w i t h a p p o i n t m e n ts .

G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a w i t h o u t a n y c a u s e s e n t m e a

n o t ic e o f a n in t e n t io n t o s u s p e n d h e r f o r a v e r y tr iv ia l m a t t e r w h i c h s h e
w a s n o t e v e n r e s p o n s i b l e f o r. S o I w r o t e b a c k to h i m a n d I s a id t o h i m
t h is m a t te r h a s b e e n d i s p o s e d o f .

D is c ip li n e i s a li n e m a n a g e m e n t

Page 74 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
function.

I r e g a r d t h e m a t t e r a s – a s fi n a l is e d .

A w e e k a f te r h e

s u s p e n d e d m e h e s u s p e n d e d h e r. S h e s a t a t h o m e fo r a fu ll y e a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o h e d is r e g a r d e d y o u r – w h a t y o u h a d t o s a y ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

H e s u s p e n d e d h e r.

S h e s a t a t h o m e fo r a fu ll y e a r.

S h e t h e n – h e th e n c h a r g e d h e r i n

t e r m s o f t h e D i s c i p li n a r y C o d e .

S h e a s k e d m e t o c o m e a n d g iv e

e v i d e n c e w h ic h I d id . W e r a is e d a f e w p o in ts i n l i m in e a n d t h e m a t t e r
10

was

remanded

and

I

t o ld

the

C h a ir p e r s o n

because

what

G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a w o u l d d o is h e w o u l d g e t h is c o h o r t s f r o m o t h e r
provinces.

G e n e r a l S i b i y a c a ll s t h e m t h e “ a s s a s s in s ” .

He would get

t h e m t h e r e a n d y o u r f a t e i s s e a l e d w i th - w i t h th e t y p e o f d is c i p l in a r i e s
t h a t – t h a t h e c o n c o c t e d . S o I t o l d th e C h a ir p e r s o n t h e r e a n d I to ld t h e
– t h e e m p l o y e r r e p r e s e n t a tiv e if t h e y p r o c e e d w it h t h is m a t t e r it w ill
p r o b a b ly b e t a k e n o n r e v ie w in t h e L a b o u r C o u r t a n d h a v i n g g iv e n t h e m
t h e f a c ts I w il l m a k e s u r e t h a t th e t a x p a y e r w i ll n o t p a y fo r th a t . T h e y
w i ll – t h e y w il l p a y t h e ( in d i s ti n c t) .

T h e y w i ll p a y fr o m t h e ir o w n

p o c k e ts a n d w e n e v e r h e a r d f r o m t h e m a g a i n . T h e n a c o u p le o f m o n t h s
20

la t e r s h e g o t a l e t te r t o g o b a c k to w o r k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t d id t h e d i s c ip li n a r y h e a r i n g p r o c e e d o r n o t ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

They abandoned it

C h a ir a n d u p u n t il t o d a y I k n o w s h e h a s b e e n w r i ti n g f o r a fi n d i n g o n
t h e m a t te r – u p u n ti l t o d a y t h e r e h a s b e e n n o f in d i n g . W h a t t h e y d i d is
w h e n t h e y – w h e n t h e y s a w t h a t t h e y c o u l d n o t ta k e i t f u r t h e r th e y to l d

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
h e r t o g o b a c k t o w o r k b u t t h e n tr a n s f e r r e d h e r to a n o t h e r p l a c e .

I

u n d e r s t a n d s h e h a s ta k e n th a t m a t t e r to t h e S S S B C a n d a s r e c e n t a s
about two or three months ago there was an agreement between the
S S S B C – w e ll b e tw e e n h e r a n d t h e p o lic e d u r i n g t h e a r b i tr a ti o n p r o c e s s
t h a t s h e w o u l d ta k e u p h e r o r i g i n a l p o s t b u t s h e – s h e h a d b e e n o u t o f
t h a t p o s t fo r – f o r th e b e t te r p a r t o f t w o y e a r s .

W h a t I a m tr y i n g to

d e m o n s t r a t e C h a ir is th e s a m e t h i n g h a p p e n e d a t n a t i o n a l l e v e l w h e r e
t h e r e i s a B r i g a d ie r Ve r m a a k a n d B r i g a d i e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i f – I a m s o r r y. B e f o r e y o u g o t o n a ti o n a l y o u –
10

y o u t o ld – y o u w r o te t o G e n e r a l N t l e m e z a a n d s a i d t h e m a tt e r a b o u t
w h ic h y o u a r e c o n t e m p l a ti n g s u s p e n d i n g t h is p e r s o n h a s b e e n d i s p o s e d
o f. H e d i d n o t r e s p o n d t o y o u b u t a b o u t fi v e d a y s o r s o la t e r o r a w e e k
la t e r t h e p e r s o n w a s s u s p e n d e d . S h e s ta y e d a t h o m e f o r a b o u t a y e a r.
T h e r e w a s a h e a r i n g – d is c i p l in a r y h e a r in g .

Yo u t o o k p a r t o r y o u

in d i c a t e d th a t i f th is m a t t e r w a s t a k e n o n r e v ie w y o u w o u l d m a k e s u r e
t h a t G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a – w h o e v e r y o u m ig h t h a v e s a i d – p a i d fr o m h i s
o w n p o c k e t a n d t h e n t h e m a t t e r w a s a b a n d o n e d . Is t h a t m o r e o r l e s s
correct?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
20

M o r e o r l e s s C h a ir.

W h e n – w h e n I w r o t e t o h i m th a t .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

M a n a g e m e n t – l in e

m a n a g e m e n t f u n c ti o n h a s b e e n d is p o s e d o f .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Page 76 of 170

I d i d n o t h e a r fr o m

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
h i m a g a i n e x c e p t a b o u t t h r e e w e e k s l a t e r.

I d i d n o t m e n ti o n t h i s .

A

C o l o n e l a r r iv e d i n m y o ffic e fr o m h i s o ffi c e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A n d h e s a i d h e is h e r e
t o d o a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n .

I s a id w h a t i n v e s t ig a ti o n .

He says no the –

s o m e fi l e s w e n t m i s s in g o u t o f a n o t h e r m e m b e r ’s c a r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

S o I s a id t o h i m w h o

s e n t y o u . H e s a i d n o i t is N t le m e z a . N o w t h a t r e l a te d t o t h e t h in g t h a t
10

they wanted to suspend.
CHAIRPERSON : That person.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t p e r s o n f o r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

S o I s a id t o b u t i t is

fi n a l is e d .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : So I said how long are
y o u h e r e f o r. H e s a id t o m e n o f o r t h r e e d a y s . S o I s ti ll s a id t o h i m
lis t e n h e r e g o a n d s i t i n y o u r h o t e l r o o m .
20

Buy yourself a barrel of

K e n tu c k y t h e n y o u c a n h a v e s o m e K e n t u c k y.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Then go back and tell
G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a h e m u s t s t o p – s t o p p o k i n g h is n o s e in t o m y
province.
CHAIRPERSON : Huh-uh.

Page 77 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Because Chair I was –
I was getting.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Tir e d o f h i s a n tic s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

So he left – then he

le f t i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Then he suspended

m e . N t le m e z a s u s p e n d e d m e a n d a b o u t a w e e k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r w h a t n o w ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h a t is ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : F o r t h e fr a u d m a t t e r.
CHAIRPERSON : The one that you have discussed before?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
20

And about a week

a ft e r h e s u s p e n d e d m e h e s u s p e n d e d h e r a s w e ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t la d y. Wa s it a l a d y ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I t w a s a la d y C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s a n d t h e n t h e – th e m a t te r th a t w a s ta k e n t o

a r b i tr a ti o n r e la t e d t o h e r tr a n s f e r.

T h e v a l id i ty o r f a ir n e s s o f h e r

tr a n s fe r. I s t h a t w h a t w a s ta k e n t o a r b i tr a t io n ?

Page 78 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s , b u t d o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r t h e r e a s o n s f o r t h e

tr a n s fe r w e r e i n a n y w a y c o n n e c te d w it h t h e r e a s o n f o r h e r s u s p e n s i o n
o r w a s i t s o m e t h in g e ls e ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir a ll t h e y w a n t t o
d o is th e y w a n t t o t a k e c o n t r o l o f k e y p o s ts .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

S h e w a s u n la w f u l ly

suspended.
10

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

She went back to

work.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A f t e r th e ir h a n d s w e r e
b a s ic a lly f o r c e d .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Because there were

q u e s t io n s in P a r li a m e n t o f m e m b e r s s it t i n g a t h o m e f o r m o r e th a n a
y e a r.
20

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

On suspension.

So

they were under pressure to let her go back to work.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Now she goes back to
w o r k b u t th e y d o n o t w a n t h e r i n th a t p o s i ti o n .

Page 79 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

S o t h e y tr a n s fe r h e r

t o – to a n o t h e r p o s i ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Aw a y fr o m p r o v i n c e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A n d i t is t h a t d e c is io n
t h a t s h e t o o k to t h e S S S B C .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : If I could.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : J u s t f o r t h e r e c o r d w h a t e x a c tly d o e s
SSSBC stand for?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir t h a t i s – th a t is
e q u iv a l e n t t o – f o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e B a r g a i n in g C o u n c i l ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s it is .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

20

Ve r y s i m il a r t o th e

C C M A b u t fo r G o v e r n m e n t O ffi c i a l s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I t i s a B a r g a i n i n g C o u n c i l.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : If I c o u l d t h e n t a k e y o u t o p a r a g r a p h
155

of

your

s ta t e m e n t?

Yo u

talk

about

s p e c i f ic a l ly

M a jo r - G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a ’s r e p l a c e m e n t o f P r o v i n c ia l H e a d s .
g iv e c l a r i ty t o t h a t d e ta il p l e a s e ?

Page 80 of 170

Can you

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Chair when the Hawks
w e r e e s t a b l is h e d G e n e r a l D r a m a t b e c a m e t h e H e a d o f t h e H a w k s . T h e y
a d v e r t is e d p o s t f o r t h e H e a d s o f H a w k s i n n i n e p r o v in c e s . N in e o f u s
w e r e a p p o i n te d a s H e a d o f th e H a w k s .

When Ntlemeza came there –

a n d m o s t o f t h e m w e r e I w o u ld s a y t h e m a j o r it y i f n o t a ll o f t h e m w e r e
c a p a b le p e o p l e t o l e a d th e p r o v i n c e s f r o m t h e H a w k s ’ s id e b u t t h e n th e
G le n i s te r J u d g m e n t c a m e o u t a n d a c c o r d i n g t o th e G le n i s te r J u d g m e n t
t h e a p p o i n t m e n t s h a d to b e m a d e b y t h e H e a d o f t h e H a w k s . Pr i o r t o
t h e G l e n is t e r J u d g m e n t a p p o i n t m e n ts h a d t o b e m a d e b y t h e N a t i o n a l
10

C o m m i s s i o n e r. S o N tl e m e z a u s e d t h a t a s a n e x c u s e to r e a d v e r tis e a l l
– a ll n in e o f th e p o s ts a n d e x c e p t f o r o n e . I t h i n k i t w a s G e n e r a l N ti n k a
w h o a ls o o n h e r o w n a c c o r d w e n t to a n o t h e r – t o a n o t h e r p o s t la t e r o n
b u t o u t o f t h e n in e p r o v i n c e s h e a p p o i n t e d e i g h t n e w p e o p l e a s H e a d o f
the Hawks.
CHAIRPERSON :

I mean except for one all were – all the others who

h a d b e e n t h e r e b e fo r e h i m w e r e n o t r e ta i n e d ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I n m y c a s e C h a ir w h a t
20

h e d i d w i t h m e w h i l e – w h il e I w a s s u s p e n d e d .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Th a t

is

when

he

a d v e r t is e d a n d I s t il l h a d m y m a t t e r p e n d i n g a t th e S C A .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : W h il e th a t m a tt e r w a s

Page 81 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
p e n d i n g h e a p p o i n te d s o m e o n e e ls e i n m y p o s t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To a c t?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o p e r m a n e n tly C h a ir
a s p a r t o f t h a t a d v e r ti s e m e n t g r o u p .
CHAIRPERSON : Huh-uh.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

So

te c h n ic a l ly

s p e a k i n g t h a t p o s t I s h o u l d – I w a s i n t h a t p o s t u n ti l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
10

The court case was

d is p o s e d o f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

S o h e d i d n o w a it f o r

that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

He

a d v e r ti s e d

th e

p o s t a n d f il le d i t w i t h s o m e o n e e ls e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m a n d w h a t - w h a t h a p p e n e d a ft e r t h a t ? I a s s u m e
y o u d id n o t j u s t t a k e th a t a s t h a t is ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
20

C h a ir a t th a t s ta g e I

h a d b e e n i n a n d o u t o f c o u r t o v e r a p e r i o d o f fiv e o r s i x y e a r s a n d I j u s t
t h o u g h t t o m y s e l f i f I h a v e t o – y o u h a d to p ic k y o u r f ig h ts .
CHAIRPERSON :

Yo u h a d r e a c h e d a p o i n t w h e r e y o u w e r e q u i t e

e x h a u s t e d i n t e r m s o f a l l th e fi g h t s y o u h a d t o p u t u p ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : T h a t is s o a n d C h a ir –
I m e a n C h a i r e v e r y s i n g l e m a t t e r th a t I t o o k t o c o u r t . A s I h a v e s a i d

Page 82 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
a n d I w ill – I w il l m e n ti o n i t la t e r o n i n t e r m s o f t h e – th e f in a n c i a l
i m p l ic a t i o n s t o t h e t a x p a y e r. E v e r y s i n g l e o n e I w o n b u t C h a ir li ti g a ti n g
w i t h – w i t h th e N PA a n d S A P S t h e y u s e t a x p a y e r s m o n e y.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

My s e l f a n d th e C a t o

M a n o r g u y s w e – w e h a d t o f i n d f u n d s t o – t o fi g h t – t o fi g h t w h a t w a s
h a p p e n in g to u s b u t a t t h a t s t a g e b e s i d e s b e i n g e x h a u s t e d C h a ir y o u
h a v e t o p ic k y o u r fi g h ts .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
10

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Because if you – you

a r e f ig h ti n g a ll o v e r th e s h o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

And

you

spread

y o u r s e l f s o th i n o n th e g r o u n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

So some of these

t h i n g s I h a d t o l e t g o . O t h e r – o t h e r m o r e i m p o r t a n t is s u e s I p u r s u e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h is w a s c l o s e t o t h e ti m e th a t y o u w e r e g o i n g
t o r e t ir e ?
20

M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s a p p o i n t e d i s i t s ti ll th e s a m e
p e r s o n w h o is s ti ll t h e r e n o w o r y o u d o n o t k n o w ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : H e i s s til l th e r e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

D o y o u h a v e a n y t h i n g t o a d d t o t h is

Page 83 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
in

r e l a ti o n

to

a

certain

Br i g a d ie r R o n e l Ve r m a a k

and

C o l o n e l Ly n n D e v e s h a n ? I f I a m p r o n o u n c i n g t h a t c o r r e c t ly.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a ir

B r i g a d ie r Ve r m a a k w a s t h e N a t i o n a l S u p p o r t H e a d a t G e n e r a l D r a m a t ’s
o ffic e a n d C o l o n e l Ly n n D e v e s h a n w a s o n e o f h e r s u b o r d i n a te s . C h a ir
a t a n y m e e ti n g w h e t h e r y o u a r e a w o m a n o r – th e w a y h e s p o k e to
p e o p l e . S o m e ti m e s I w o u l d c r i n g e . H e w o u ld s h o u t a t t h e m . H e w i ll
m a k e r a c ia l r e m a r k s .

H e w o u l d b e l i tt l e p e o p le a n d Ve r m a a k a n d

D e v e s h a n t o l d m e p e r s o n a ll y t h a t t h e y j u s t c o u l d n o t h a n d l e i t a n y
10

lo n g e r.

I m e a n h e w o u ld – i f - a n d t h a t w a s n o t o n ly w i t h t h e t w o o f

them.

I f h e h a d fo u n d o u t t h a t a n y o n e h a d a n y c o n t a c t w i t h

General Dramat.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : He would go berserk.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

I

just

could

not

understand why at one stage.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
20

A n d t h e n e v e n t u a l ly

B r i g a d ie r Ve r m a a k to o k a tr a n s f e r a n d s o d i d C o l o n e l D e v e s h a n . A l s o
very

key

p o s ts

because

that was

Human

Resources

and

when

G e n e r a l L e b e y a w a s a p p o in t e d I a c t u a l l y a p p r o a c h e d Ve r m a a k a n d
D e v e s h a n a n d I s a id to t h e m lo o k w e n e e d t o a s s is t G e n e r a l L e b e y a t o
g e t t h e s h i p a fl o a t a g a i n b e c a u s e I t h in k G e n e r a l L e b e y a in h e r i t e d a
s in k i n g s h ip b e c a u s e o f – o f w h a t G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a d i d t o t h e H a w k s

Page 84 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
a n d s h e s a i d t o m e G e n e r a l t h e r e is n o w a y s I c a n g o b a c k t o t h a t
p l a c e . I f I s e e th a t p l a c e I a m tr a u m a ti s e d . T h a t is h o w h e d e a l t w i t h
p e o p l e . C h a ir in m y in s t a n c e w h e n h e s e r v e d my s u s p e n s io n n o t ic e o n
m e t h e y a r r i v e d – i t w a s a p u b l ic h o li d a y.

I was not at home.

I

r e c e i v e d a c a l l f r o m m y n e i g h b o u r. H e s a id t o m e th e r io t p o l ic e is a t
y o u r h o u s e . S o I s a i d w h a t d o y o u m e a n . H e s a y s n o t h e y a r e ju m p i n g
o v e r t h e f e n c e s w i t h g u n s a n d – s o I p h o n e d m y – m y d o m e s t ic a i d a n d
I s a i d to h e r L in d ie w h a t i s g o i n g o n . S h e s a y s t o o m a n y p o l ic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa s t h i s w h i le – w h il e y o u w e r e a t w o r k o r w h a t?
10

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Ye s C h a ir.

T h a t is

w h e n N t le m e z a s u s p e n d e d m e b u t n o w h e h a d t o g iv e m e t h e n o tic e .
S o it w a s a p u b lic h o l i d a y.

T h e n I g e t a c a ll fr o m m y l a w y e r –

C a r l Va n D e r M e r w e . H e s a y s to m e h e r e c e i v e d a c a ll t h e y a r e l o o k i n g
f o r y o u . I s a i d w e ll I a m i n P i e t e r m a r i tz b u r g n o w. T h e n e x t m o m e n t h e
p h o n e s m e h e s a y s n o it is a p u b li c h o li d a y.
s e c u r i ty fr o m h i s o ffic e p h o n e d h i m n o w.

He says to me no the

C h a ir n o w I a c t u a ll y h a v e

v id e o m a t e r ia l th a t – t o s h o w h o w t h e y t a k e th e n a ti o n a l i n t e r v e n t i o n
unit people.

T h e y a c t u a ll y – w h e n th e y a p p r o a c h th e la w y e r ’s o ffi c e

t h e y j u m p o u t o f t h e v e h i c l e s w i t h t h e ir g u n s . T h e y g o in t o th e fo y e r.
20

T h e o ff ic e s w e r e c l o s e d a n d y o u c a n s e e t h e y ta lk t o t h e s e c u r it y. T h e y
w e n t u p s t a ir s c a m e b a c k . Th a t j u s t to s e r v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r w h a t ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a ir t h a t is – th a t

w a s N t le m e z a a t h i s b e s t . H e – h e w a n t e d t o p r o v e a p o i n t i f y o u g o
a g a in s t m e t h is is w h a t i s g o i n g t o h a p p e n t o y o u .

Page 85 of 170

Even when I was

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
s u s p e n d e d - e v e n t u a ll y s u s p e n d e d h e w e n t t o m y o ff ic e . M y s e c r e ta r y
w a s s i t ti n g t h e r e a n d m y d o o r w a s l o c k e d a n d h e s a i d t o t h e m t h e y
m u s t o p e n a n d b y th e w a y C h a ir s h e – h e t o o k w i t h h e r - j u s t t o p r o v e
t h e p o in t h e to o k w i t h h i m G e n e r a l N g o b e n i t h e s u s p e c t i n my
in v e s t i g a t io n . T h e y w e n t t o m y o ff ic e a n d h e t h r e a te n e d m y s e c r e t a r y
t h a t s h e s h o u l d o p e n t h e d o o r o t h e r w is e s h e w i ll a ls o b e s u s p e n d e d .
S o it w a s v e r y h ig h h a n d e d .

If you dared go against him whether you

w e r e r ig h t o r w r o n g h e – a n d I th in k h e w a n t e d t o p r o v e a p o i n t .
Booysen went against me.
10

He sends these people to my house in

b a t t le g e a r t o c o m e a n d s e r v e a n o t ic e o n m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u s a y t h e s e p e o p l e w e r e – y o u w e r e to ld w e r e
ju m p i n g o v e r th e fe n c e o r s o m e th i n g ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

W e l l I w a s n o t th e r e

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : In y o u r h o u s e .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

My neighbour phoned

m e . H e s a i d t o m e t h e – t h e r io t p o li c e is a t y o u r h o u s e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : So I phoned – phoned
20

m y d o m e s tic a id . I s a i d L i n d i e w h a t i s g o i n g o n . S h e s a y s n o t h e r e a r e
lo ts o f p o lic e m e n a t t h e h o u s e .

T h e y a r e c o m in g fr o m t h e s i d e s a n d

they have got big guns.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A n d th e n I g e t t h e c a l l

Page 86 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
fr o m m y a t t o r n e y.

They are looking for me.

T h e n t h e y g o to m y

a tt o r n e y ’s o ff ic e a n d th a t I h a v e o n – I h a v e a li t tl e v i d e o c li p o f t h a t.
H o w t h e y d e s c e n d e d u p o n h is o ff ic e to c o m e a n d s e r v e a n o ti c e o n m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e o n e s w h o w e r e – w h o h a d g o n e t o y o u r h o u s e d i d
y o u g e t t o k n o w w h a t t h e – th e p u r p o s e o f t h e ir v is i t w a s ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

T h e y w a n t e d to s e r v e

me with the.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n o tic e o f y o u r s u s p e n s i o n ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
10

S u s p e n s i o n – t h a t is

c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

So some went to – to your house.

Others went to

y o u r a t t o r n e y ’s o ff ic e o r i t w a s t h e s a m e g r o u p ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

I t is th e s a m e g r o u p

C h a ir. W h e n t h e y c o u ld n o t f in d m e a t m y h o u s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h e n t h e y w e n t ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

They

went

to

my

a tt o r n e y ’s o ff ic e b u t I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h y t h e y w e n t t o h i s o ffic e . I t
w a s a p u b lic h o l id a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

There was no one

there.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : If I could ask you to turn to EXHIBIT
Z( B ) a n d i n p a r ti c u l a r p a g e 3 0 6 ?
CHAIRPERSON :

Te l l m e M a j o r - G e n e r a l B o o y s e n – I a m s o r r y to

Page 87 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
in t e r r u p t y o u M s S e p t e m b e r. B y th is ti m e y o u h a d b e e n – y o u k n o w – i n
t h e L a w E n fo r c e m e n t S e c t o r fo r d e c a d e s .

I s t h a t h o w n o ti c e o f –

n o t ic e s o f s u s p e n s io n a r e d e l iv e r e d o r s e r v e d o n p o li c e o ff ic e r s w h e n
they need to be suspended?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : D e fi n it e ly n o t C h a ir. I
h a v e – I h a v e n e v e r – I h a v e s u s p e n d e d o ffi c e r s b e f o r e . I c a ll t h e m t o
m y o ff ic e . I t e l l t h e m t h e r e a s o n f o r th e s u s p e n s i o n a n d I w i ll g i v e t h e m
t h e n o tic e .

I l e t th e m s ig n f o r it a n d I tr e a t t h e m a s h u m a n b e i n g s

w h e t h e r t h e y a r e r i g h t o r w r o n g . I h a v e n e v e r e v e r s e e n a n y t h i n g lik e
10

it . C h a ir c a n y o u j u s t i m a g i n e w h a t m y n e i g h b o u r s m u s t h a v e t h o u g h t
w i t h th e r i o t p o l ic e d e s c e n d in g u p o n m y h o u s e . M y l a w y e r p h o n i n g m e .
T h e r e a r e p o lic e m e n a ll o v e r t h e s h o w a t t h is o ffi c e a n d a s I s a i d I h a v e
a v i d e o c li p t h a t c a n p r o v e th a t b u t n o C h a ir. T h a t is – i t i s c o m p l e te ly
ir r e g u l a r t o d o th a t . I p o s e d n o t h r e a t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A t p a g e 3 0 6 y o u h a v e a n a ffi d a v i t

t h a t h a s b e e n d e p o s e d t o b y R o n e l Ve r m a a k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y w h ic h e x h i b i t a r e y o u n o w o n ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : E X H I B I T Z( B ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W h a t p a g e ?
20

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : P a g e 3 0 6 . Is it c o r r e c t t h a t t h i s is a n
a ffi d a v i t d e p o s e d b y R o n e l Ve r m a a k a n d th e d a t e o f t h is p a r tic u la r
a ffi d a v i t i s d a t e d 8 Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 9 a s r e f le c t e d o n p a g e 3 1 3 ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : H a v e y o u r e a d th r o u g h t h is a ffi d a v i t ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Page 88 of 170

C h a ir

I

have

just

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
p e r u s e d th r o u g h i t.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : And does it ascribe the - or the same
o r s i mi l a r m a n n e r o f y o u r d e a li n g s w i th M a jo r - G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d i n p a r tic u la r t h e r e la t io n s h i p

b e t w e e n R o n e l Ve r m a a k a n d M a jo r - G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

I t is in d e e d s o C h a ir.

S h e g o e s i n t o a b i t o f m o r e d e t a il h e r e b u t – a n d I h a v e p i c k e d u p
s o m e t h i n g h e r e t h a t I w a s n o t e v e n a w a r e o f. I f I w o u l d g o t o N a t io n a l
10

H e a d O ff ic e s h e w a s a c tu a l ly h i d i n g i n t h e o ff ic e s . S h e d i d n o t w a n t t o
b e s e e n w i th m e b e c a u s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w a s th a t ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : B r ig a d i e r Ve r m a a k .
CHAIRPERSON : Oh. She did not – she would not want to be seen with
you?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Ja.

S o I n o w r e a l is e

w h e n I w e n t t o H e a d O ff ic e I c o u l d n e v e r f i n d h e r th e r e .
CHAIRPERSON : Oh.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
20

Because

she

was

h i d i n g fr o m m e b e c a u s e s h e w a s s c a r e d i f N tl e m e z a s e e s h e r w i th m e
a l l h e l l w i th b r e a k l o o s e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm, ja.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

We are now on page 48 of your

a ffi d a v i t i n p a r ti c u l a r fr o m p a r a g r a p h 1 5 7 w h ic h t a l k s a b o u t t h e
a p p o i n t m e n t o f th e H e a d o f th e H a w k s .

Page 89 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
CHAIRPERSON :

W e l l d i d h e n o t c o v e r t h is la s t t i m e o r i s t h e r e

something to be covered?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o C h a ir. T h is is s o m e th i n g n e w.
CHAIRPERSON :

Oh.

I seem to remember Major -General Booysen

t a lk in g a b o u t h i m a n d o th e r p e o p le g o i n g t o C a p e To w n f o r a n i n t e r v ie w
but General Ntlemeza not being among them and to his – how he was
taken to the Gupta residence. Major -General Booysen?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

No,

I

have

not

have

not

t e s ti fi e d a b o u t t h a t C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

No.

I

t e s ti fi e d a b o u t t h a t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t th e s e c o n d p a r t?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: No.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A l s o t h e in t e r v i e w ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Not

th e

Gupta

in t e r v ie w. I h a v e n o t t e s ti f ie d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t t h e o t h e r o n e y o u d id a b o u t th e i n t e r v i e w ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y, a lr i g h t.

O k a y, th a n k y o u o r m a y b e it is j u s t I

r e a d a n d y o u h a v e n o t te s ti fi e d , o k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir h e c e r ta i n ly d i d a ll u d e to

c e r t a i n a s p e c t s o f h is a p p lic a t io n fo r t h e p o s i t io n .

Page 90 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t is f i n e . C o n ti n u e a n d c o v e r w h a t y o u n e e d to
c o v e r.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

General Booysen

do

you

know

M r D u d u z a n e Zu m a ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I d o C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : How do you know him?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a ir I c a n n o t r e c a l l

the date. It was when I was back at work. A person – I cannot recall
w h a t h i s n a m e is . I w i ll – m a y b e i f w e b r e a k I w i ll g e t h is n a m e . P h o n e
10

me and he wanted to meet me and I met with him and he told me that
h e w a s a fr i e n d a n d a p a r t n e r o f D u d u z a n e Z u m a a n d t h e n h e s a id to
m e t h a t th e r e is a c o m p l a i n t t h e y w a n t t o lo d g e w i th r e g a r d s t o a
c r i m i n a l i n v e s ti g a t i o n a g a i n s t th e W h i t e g u y.

I t h i n k h is s u r n a m e w a s

E r l a n g b u t I c a n g e t h i s s u r n a m e C h a ir. T h e w a y h e e x p la i n e d i t t o m e
is t h a t D u d u z a n e d id n o t w a n t t o g o i n to b u s i n e s s w it h th is W h i t e m a l e
b u t h e c o n v i n c e d D u d u z a n e t o g o i n to b u s i n e s s w i th t h is W h i t e m a l e
a n d i t i s r e l a te d t o o n li n e b e t ti n g a n d a p p a r e n tl y th is W h i te m a l e h a d
t h e n d e fr a u d e d t h e m w i t h m ill i o n s a n d t h i s g u y w a s n o w s i t ti n g in - in
t h e U K . H e t h e n s a id t o m e th a t th is W h i t e m a le - t h e H a w k s fr o m C a p e
20

To w n h a d m ir r o r i m a g e d t h is W h i t e m a le ’s c o m p u t e r i n D u r b a n . I s a i d
no I do not believe it because I would have been aware of that. So I
thought

let

me

just

take

–

ta k e

a

chance.

So

I

phoned

C o l o n e l R u d o lf s e . I s a id t o h i m C o b u s a r e y o u a w a r e . H e s a i d n o h e
k n o w s a b o u t it . T h e y d id m ir r o r i m a g e t h i s W h i t e m a le ’s c o m p u t e r a n d
t h e r e is a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n b y t h e B r it is h P o lic e r e g a r d i n g t h i s o n li n e

Page 91 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
b e t t in g t h i n g . B e t h a t a s i t m a y C h a i r s o t h e c o m p l a i n t fr o m t h e ir s id e
w a s t h a t w e s h o u ld in v e s ti g a t e – i t w a s a c o u p le o f m i ll i o n R a n d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d w h o s e s i d e w h e n y o u s a y h is

s id e d o y o u m e a n ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : S o r r y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Who – who was the complainant in

the matter?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

The

complainant

w o u ld h a v e b e e n - C h a ir I w ill h a v e t o g e t h is n a m e .
10

CHAIRPERSON :

Is i t t h e n a m e t h a t y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r a t th e

moment?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

B u t I w il l g e t i t n o w

C h a ir w h e n w e g e t a b r e a k .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

So he said they want

t o – t o d o – u s to d o th e c r i m i n a l i n v e s t i g a t io n a n d C h a ir I w a s v e r y
w e a r y.

I d o n o t w a n t t o d o c r i m in a l in v e s t ig a ti o n s fr o m - b e c a u s e w e

m e t a t a r e s t a u r a n t . S o I p o i n t e d a L i e u t e n a n t - C o lo n e l M a r t h in u s . H is
n ic k n a m e is Ti e n ie B o t h a t o o p e n u p a n i n q u ir y a n d a d o c k e t t o
20

in v e s t i g a t e t h e m a t te r.

S o I s a i d o k a y w e w i ll i n v e s ti g a te th e m a t t e r.

S u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t h e w a n te d t o s e e m e a g a i n a n d w e m e t i n a
r e s t a u r a n t i n Fl o r id a R o a d .
CHAIRPERSON :

But let us just go back.

What was the actual

c o m p la i n t t h a t h a d t o b e i n v e s ti g a te d a b o u t th e o n li n e b u s in e s s ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Page 92 of 170

C h a ir i t w a s o n e o f

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
t h e s e t e c h n ic a l t h i n g s .
CHAIRPERSON : Oh.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : O n li n e b e t ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o m e te c h n i c a l th in g s , j a .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

I am not very au fait

with.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

These

c o m m e r c ia l

in v e s t i g a t io n s C h a ir b u t t h e c o m p la in t a t f a c e v a l u e a p p e a r e d to b e
10

le g i t i m a te a n d C o l o n e l B o t h a a ls o r e p o r t e d b a c k to m e t h a t th e r e
a p p e a r s t o h a v e b e e n c r i m e c o m m i t t e d b y t h i s W h i t e g e n tl e m a n w h o is
now in England.

A t a s e c o n d m e e t i n g t h is t i m e a r o u n d I m e t t h is

g e n tl e m a n w h o s e n a m e I c a n n o t r e c a ll a n d D u d u z a n e c a m e a n d t h e r e
w a s a n o t h e r t a l l C o l o u r e d m a l e w i th – w i t h t h e m .

T h e c o l o u r e d m a le

r e c o g n is e d m e b u t I d id n o t r e c o g n i s e h i m a n d – b u t th e w a y h e s p o k e
t o m e i t ’s l ik e w e k n e w e a c h o th e r a n d e v e n tu a l ly I p i c k e d u p th a t h e
w a s a p e r s o n b y t h e n a m e o f L l o y d H il l a n d L l o y d H il l C h a ir, i f I c a n
ju s t d i g r e s s a l it t le b i t t h e r e w a s a a l le g a t i o n a g a i n s t a p r e v i o u s
p r e s i d e n t o f t h a t g a n g s t e r s th a t w e r e – t h a t t h e y m e t u p w it h a n d v e r y
20

f o u l l a n g u a g e w e r e u s e d , n o w th is w a s th e s a m e L l o y d H i ll w a s a t t h a t
m e e ti n g w i t h th e p r e s id e n t.

S o t h i s L l o y d H i ll – I r e m e m b e r e d h i m

w h e n I w a s a y o u n g L i e u te n a n t , h e u s e d t o w o r k a n d w e n t – h e w a s
in v o lv e d w i t h n a r c o t ic s . S o th e n I r e a l is e d w h o t h i s g u y w a s b e c a u s e
h e h a d g o t m u c h o ld e r a n d w e s p o k e a b o u t t h e in v e s ti g a t io n , m y s e lf
a n d D u d u z a n e a n d I to ld h i m , l o o k C o lo n e l B o t h a is d e a l i n g w i t h th e

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
m a t t e r.

I d o n ’ t t h in k t h e y tr ie d t o p u t p r e s s u r e o n m e , I th in k –

n o w a d a y s th e p u b l ic h a s t o p u t p r e s s u r e o n t h e p o l ic e to d o t h e ir w o r k .
T h e n o n a n o c c a s io n I w a s in G a u t e n g a n d I r e c e iv e d a c a ll
fr o m a C a p t a i n , C a p ta i n D ir k S w a r t , n o w C a p t a i n D i r k S w a r t h a p p e n s t o
b e fr i e n d s w it h E d w a r d Zu m a a n d D u d u z a n e Zu m a a n d h e s a i d t o m e
D u d u z a n e w o u l d l ik e t o m e e t m e h e r e in Pr e to r i a b e c a u s e t h e y k n e w
t h a t I w a s h e r e . S o I s a i d t o h i m i t s fi n e s o I d r o v e w i th m y s o n , m y
s o n E b e n a n d w e m e t t h e m i n S a n d to n b u t w h e n I m e t t h e m D u d u z a n e
w a s w i t h a y o u n g s t e r, m o r e o r l e s s h is a g e , a w h i t e g u y.
10

So we just

s p o k e i n g e n e r a l a r i t ie s a n d w e w e r e in m y s o n ’s c a r s o th e y s a id , n o w e
s h o u l d g o t o t h e ir o ff ic e . S o w e d r o v e t o a o ffi c e a n d I t h i n k I ’l l b e a b le
t o f in d i t i n S a n d to n a n d w e w e n t in s i d e , w e s a w p e o p l e th e r e I d o n ’t
know who they were.

Th i n k i n g b a c k I s u s p e c t i t c o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e

o ffic e s o f t h e G u p ta s b e c a u s e t h e b o a r d r o o m s a t in h a d a b i g p l a s ti c
t h i n g w i th a p i e c e o f p o le i n s i d e b u t w e j u s t h a d t e a a n d w e s p o k e t o
t h is – m y s o n s p o k e to t h is y o u n g w h i t e li g h t y b u t t h e y w e r e fr ie n d s
D u d u z a n e a n d t h is y o u n g s t e r, t h e y w e r e i n t h e s a m e s c h o o l a n d
D u d u z a n e s p o k e a b o u t t h a t t h e y w e r e s t il l e x p a n d i n g t h e ir b u s in e s s t o
m a k e a r m o u r e d v e h ic l e s a n d n e x t ti m e w h e n I’ m h e r e t h e y ’l l t a k e m e i n
20

t h e h e li c o p t e r a n d w e ’ ll g o a n d h a v e a l o o k a t t h e p la c e w h e r e th e y
b u il d th e a r m o u r e d v e h ic l e s , I s ti ll s a i d i t w o u l d b e n ic e a n d t h e n w e
le f t .

Th e n o n a s e c o n d o c c a s i o n , I th i n k I ’v e g o t th e d a te i n m y

s t a te m e n t . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s i n fa c t i f I c o u l d ta k e y o u to

p a r a g r a p h 1 5 8 , it ’s u n d e r s t o o d t h a t t h e r e w a s , i n f a c t a m e e ti n g s h o r tly

Page 94 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
b e f o r e y o u r i n t e r v i e w.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Ye s C h a ir, s o I w a s

s h o r tl is t e d t o b e c o m e t h e h e a d o f t h e H a w k s N a t io n a l ly a n d o u r
in t e r v ie w s , I t h i n k , w a s – w e ll t h e d a t e o n w h ic h I s a w h i m – D u d u z a n e
was

the

16th,

I

think

the

interviews

were

two

or

three

days

a ft e r. .. ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h a t ’s th e 1 6 t h o f A u g u s t 2 0 1 5 .

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

August 2015.

Thank you.

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

I once again got a

c a l l fr o m C a p t a in D ir k S w a r t w h o s a i d to m e – h e c a l ls h i m Z a n e w o u ld
lik e t o s e e m e a g a in .

S o I s a i d t o h i m o k a y w h e r e is h e , h e s a i d n o

h e ’s i n S a n d to n . S o I s a i d t o h i m o k a y – C h a ir I ju s t w a n t t o i n t e r r u p t
m y s e l f t h e r e , p r io r to t h a t, I a ls o g o t a c a l l fr o m D i r k S w a r t w h o s a id
t h a t Za n e w a n t e d t o s e e m e , I w a s o n my w a y t o h o s p i t a l a l i t tl e
c o m p a n y o f M a r y H o s p it a l i n Pr e to r i a w h e r e m y b r o th e r ’s s o n h a d a
b r a i n o p e r a t io n . S o I s a i d w e l l I ’ m o n m y w a y to th e h o s p i t a l , th e n h e
s a i d , n o h e ’l l m e e t m e a t th e h o s p i t a l a n d I a r r iv e d t h e r e w i t h m y w h o l e
f a m ily, c h i ld r e n , w i fe a n d h e a r r iv e d t h e r e , t h a t ’s n o w D u d u z a n e in a
20

M e r c e d e s B e n z , o n e o f t h e s e f a n c y c a r s . H e ’s a v e r y li k e a b l e p e r s o n
a n d h e s p o k e t o m e a l m o s t l ik e – a n d h e c a l ls m e s ir a n d b y t h e n h e ’d
a lr e a d y m e t E b e n m y s o n a n d t h e y w o u l d – a n d j u s t lik e a g r e e ti n g ,
m e e t a n d g r e e t ty p e o f t h in g a n d t h e n h e le f t w it h t h e M e r c e d e s a n d I
w e n t in t o t h e h o s p i ta l .

B a c k t o t h i s m e e t in g i n A u g u s t C h a ir, s o I

s a i d . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .

Page 95 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t t o m a k e s u r e I u n d e r s t a n d , th e m e e t i n g th a t y o u
h a d w it h M r D u d u z a n e Z u m a a n d h is f r i e n d , y o u s a i d i t w a s a b o u t t w o
o r th r e e d a y s b e f o r e y o u w e r e t o b e i n t e r v i e w e d fo r t h e p o s i ti o n o f h e a d
of Hawks?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

N o , n o C h a ir th is o n e

I’ m t a lk i n g n o w. . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

T h e o n e y o u ’r e a b o u t t o t a lk a b o u t is t h a t o n e ?

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
CHAIERPERSON:
10

He was alone then.

O h o k a y, t h e o n e w h e r e h e w a s w i t h h i s fr i e n d ,

r o u n d a b o u t – w h e n w a s t h a t m o r e o r l e s s , w a s t h a t t h e f ir s t o n e ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

T h a t w a s t h e f ir s t o n e

w h e n I m e t h i m w i th h i s w h it e fr i e n d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s o t h a t w a s t h e fi r s t o n e a n d i t h a p p e n e d – i t w a s
in G a u t e n g .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
CHAIRPERSON :

In Sandton.

In Sandton ja.

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

the second one was

in P r e t o r i a w h e n h e c a m e t h e r e to t h e . . .( in t e r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :
20

O h t o t h e h o s p it a l.

M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s , th e fir s t o n e – l e t ’s fi n i s h t h e f ir s t o n e , w h a t

a p p e a r e d to b e t h e p u r p o s e o f h i m w a n t in g to m e e t w i t h y o u ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a ir I d o n ’ t k n o w,

lik e I s a y h e ’s a v e r y j o v i a l , f r i e n d ly p e r s o n , I t h i n k m a y b e h e w a n t e d t o
b r a g a l it t le b i t I d o n ’ t k n o w, s h o w in g m e t h e o ffi c e s , t h e n ic e c a r.

Page 96 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
CHAIRPERSON :

B e c a u s e it – I m e a n i f y o u p h o n e y o u r fr ie n d a n d s a y

le t ’s m e e t , t h e r e m i g h t n o t n e e d t o b e a n y p a r ti c u l a r p u r p o s e , fr i e n d s
ju s t w a n t t o b e t o g e t h e r f o r w h a t e v e r b u t i f i t ’s s o m e b o d y th a t y o u h a v e
n e v e r m e t b e f o r e , o n e w o u l d t h i n k t h a t t h e r e w o u ld b e a p u r p o s e w h y
you want to see that person.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a ir a s I s a i d d u r in g

t h a t fir s t m e e t in g w i t h h i m a n d th a t w h i te y o u n g s t e r w e w e n t to t h o s e
o ffic e s a n d n o t h i n g m u c h w a s s a i d a l t h o u g h h e s p o k e a b o u t t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n th a t w e w e r e b u s y w i t h b u t I ju s t s a i d t o h i m lo o k –
10

b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e p r e s s u r is i n g – n o t s o m u c h h i m , i t w a s d o n e b y th e
o th e r c h a p w h o s e n a m e I’v e fo r g o t te n n o w. T h e y w e r e p u t ti n g p r e s s u r e
o n m y s e l f a n d th e i n v e s ti g a ti n g o ff ic e r, C o l o n e l B o t h a a n d I e x p l a i n e d
t o t h e m , w e c a n n o t j u s t g o a n d a c c e s s d o c u m e n t s w e h a v e to s u b p o e n a
t h e d o c u m e n ts a n d t h e n w h e n I m e t h i m – b u t w h e n I m e t h i m h e r e in
P r e t o r i a , w h e n I m e t Z a n e i n Pr e to r i a I d o n ’ t th i n k th e id e a w a s f o r m e
– f o r h i m – f o r m e to g i v e f e e d b a c k a b o u t t h e in v e s ti g a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : B e c a u s e w e d is c u s s e d
it b u t i t w a s n ’ t th e p r i m a r y c a u s e o f i t - i t w a s – t h e d is c u s s io n o n t h e

20

c a s e w a s , w e ’r e b u s y w i t h i t, C o l o n e l B o th a is d e a li n g w it h i t .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u , t h e n y o u ’r e o n t o t h e th ir d – a n d

t h e n t h e s e c o n d e n c o u n te r, i t s e e m s fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d t h a t t h e
p u r p o s e w a s n o t c le a r e i t h e r, y o u w e r e g o i n g t o h o s p i t a l, h e c a m e
( in d is ti n c t) a n d m u c h n o t m u c h w a s d is c u s s e d a n d t h e n h e l e ft .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Page 97 of 170

And

w i th

th a t

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
d is c u s s io n ju s t a b o u t m y w h o le f a m il y th a t w a s th e r e , w e s to o d th e r e i n
t h e c a r p a r k , w e s p o k e a b o u t t h e w e a t h e r a n d t h e n ic e c a r a n d h e s a i d
h e h a d t o g o a n d I a ls o s a id I a ls o h a d t o g o n o w b e c a u s e w e h a v e to
g o s e e m y b r o t h e r ’s s o n .
CHAIERPERSON:

Ye s o k a y a n d t h e n n o w y o u a r e i n t o t h e t h i r d o n e

a n d th a t th e o n e , tw o o r t h r e e d a y s b e fo r e t h e in t e r v ie w.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON : Okay thank you.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
10

S o C h a ir I r e c e iv e d a

c a l l a g a i n t h a t h e w o u l d l ik e t o s e e m e , I s a i d w h e r e , S a n d t o n a g a i n ,
w h e r e i n S a n d t o n , I c a n ’ t r e c a l l e x a c t ly w h e r e s o I s a i d o n c e a g a i n to
m y s o n E b e n t o a a c c o m p a n y m e a n d w e d r o v e i n h i s c a r. N o w o n th e
w a y t h e r e w e p u t t h e p h o n e o n s p e a k e r p h o n e a n d t h e n I r e c e iv e d a
call on the speaker phone which Eben could hear and asked where we
w e r e – w e l l h e s a i d w e a r e h e r e , I s a i d w e a r e o n o u r w a y, w e s h o u ld
b e th e r e i n a f e w m i n u t e s a n d t h e n w e t e r m i n a t e d t h e c a l l a n d t h e n m y
s o n s a i d t o m e w h o ’s t h a t n o w b u t b e c a u s e Z a n e s p e a k s v e r y p r iv a te
s c h o o l E n g l is h a n d – b u t . . .( in t e r v e n t i o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

20

H o w is p r iv a te s c h o o l E n g l is h G e n e r a l B o o y s e n , I ’ m

s u r e i t ’s n o t l ik e m y E n g lis h .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

A n d l ik e my E n g l is h

C h a ir. T h e n m y s o n s a i d to m e , “ w ie is d i t” , - w h o i s t h a t , s o I s a id t o
h i m I t h i n k i t ’s h i s w h i t e fr i e n d ta lk in g b e c a u s e o f t h e w a y h e s p o k e
E n g l is h a n d w e e v e n tu a lly g o t h e p l a c e w h e r e w e w e r e s u p p o s e d t o
m e e t a n d t h e n . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h y d id y o u s a y t h a t w a s i t to t e s t w h e t h e r y o u r
s o n c o u ld d i s ti n g u is h w h o w a s s p e a k i n g b a s e d o n E n g l is h o r w h a t ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

No

Chair

I

was

c o n fu s e d t o o t h e n b e c a u s e I t h o u g h t m a y b e – b e c a u s e th e fi r s t ti m e w e
m e t t h e w h i t e y o u n g s t e r w a s w i t h s o I th o u g h t m a y b e t h i s t i m e a g a i n ,
t h e w h i t e y o u n g s te r is w i t h b e c a u s e i t s o u n d e d lik e a w h i t e p e r s o n
s p e a k i n g , t h e E n g lis h h e s p o k e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
10

A n d th e n w h e n I

e v e n t u a l ly a r r iv e d i n S a n d t o n a t t h e s p o t w h e r e w e w e r e s u p p o s e d t o
m e e t th e y w e r e n ’ t t h e r e o r h e w a s n ’t t h e r e . I p h o n e d h i m a n d w e k e p t
o n m i s s in g e a c h o t h e r a n d e v e n t u a ll y I s a i d t o h i m l is t e n I ’ m h u n g r y
n o w, t h e r e ’s a b u r g e r p l a c e a r o u n d t h e c o r n e r b y t h e G a u tr a i n S t a ti o n .
S o I s a id t o h i m , l is t e n l e t’s g o h a v e a b it e q u ic k ly w e w e n t a n d a s I
o r d e r e d h e p h o n e d a g a in a n d I s a id , n o w e ’r e j u s t h a v i n g a b i te a n d
t h is t i m e a r o u n d h e s a i d , m e e t m e a t t h e G a u t r a in s ta t io n a t a s p e c i f ic
p l a c e a r o u n d t h e c o r n e r.

W e f i n is h e d t h e h a m b u r g e r s a n d m y s o n

p a r k e d h i s v e h ic l e , s o I t h o u g h t le t m e g e t o u t o f th e v e h ic le s o t h a t
t h e y c a n s e e m e . . .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Before

you

c o n ti n u e

General

B o o y s e n w i t h t h e r e n o t b e in g a n y s p e c i fi c p u r p o s e fo r y o u r p r e v i o u s
m e e ti n g s w h y w e r e y o u in c li n e d t o m e e t w i t h h i m a g a i n ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a ir a s I s a i d in t h e

b e g in n i n g o f my e v i d e n c e , if y o u k n o w D u d u z a n e , h e ’s o n e o f t h o s e –
lik e h e c o u ld b e y o u r s o n p lu s w e w e r e d o i n g t h a t i n v e s ti g a ti o n i n w h ic h

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
h e w a s a c o m p l a i n a n t o r a c o - c o m p l a i n a n t w i t h t h i s o t h e r g e n tl e m a n s o
I d i d n ’ t s e e a n y t h in g u n t o w a r d i n m e e ti n g h i m a t th a t s t a g e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

Please proceed.

Ye s c o n ti n u e .

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

S o C h a ir I g o t o u t o f

t h e v e h ic l e a n d I s t o o d o n t h e p a v e m e n t s o t h a t i f t h e y c o m e t h e y c a n
n o w s e e m e b e c a u s e w e k e p t o n m i s s i n g e a c h o th e r a n d th e n e x t
m o m e n t – E b e n w a s s t il l i n t h e c a r, t h e n e x t m o m e n t I s a w a b l a c k l a d y
coming
10

fr o m

the

opposite

d ir e c ti o n

with

her

child

and

I

s a w. . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

A black sorry?

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

A b l a c k l a d y c o m in g

fr o m th is s id e w i t h h e r s m a ll c h i ld a n d t h e n t h e n e x t m o m e n t fr o m th is
s id e I s a w a R o l ls R o y c e a b la c k R o lls R o y c e p u ll i n g u p b e h in d E b e n ’s
c a r, my s o n ’s c a r. I t h o u g h t t h is c a r is s t o p p i n g t o p ic k u p t h is l a d y b u t
t h is l a d y k e p t o n w a lk in g , s o I t h o u g h t o k a y a n d I b e n t i n s i d e t h e c a r
a n d I s a id to m y s o n , l o o k a t t h i s c a r b e h i n d u s b e c a u s e n o t e v e r y d a y
t h a t y o u s e e a R o lls R o y c e a n d t h e n w h e n I l o o k e d I s a w n o t h e r e ’s
D u d u z a n e s i t t in g in t h e c a r a n d w h a t I f o r g o t t o s a y C h a ir, w h e n w e
20

w e r e s ti ll in t h e c a r f in d i n g e a c h o t h e r, h e s a id t o m e a r e y o u g o i n g t o
ju m p in t h e c a r w i th m e , I s a id , n o I ’l l fo ll o w y o u . T h e n w h e n I s a w i t
w a s h i m I w e n t t o h i m a n d I g r e e t e d h i m , t h e n I d e c i d e d n o i t’s b e t t e r
t o d r iv e i n t h e R o lls R o y c e th a t my s o n ’s C o r o l la .
S o I w e n t to m y s o n , I s a i d , n o I’ m g o in g t o d r iv e w i t h h i m . S o
I ju m p e d in t h e R o ll s R o y c e a n d E b e n , m y s o n f o ll o w e d u s i n t h e To y o t a

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
a n d w e w e n t i n t h e d ir e c ti o n w h e r e th e o ffi c e s w e r e b u t t h e n w e w e n t
p a s t a n d I r e c a l l d u r i n g t h a t w e e k t h e r e w a s s o m e c o m m e n ts i n t h e
m e d i a a b o u t t h e th e n Pr e s id e n t a g a i n a n d I s a i d t o h i m , h e y y o u r o l d
man is having a hard time and he said yes and we spoke about the hard
ti m e t h e o l d m a n is h a v in g a n d w e c a r r ie d o n d r iv in g a n d t h e n e x t
m o m e n t I s a w w e w e r e c lo s e t o t h e z o o a n d t h e n r i g h t n e x t t o th e z o o
w e d r o v e – w e p u l l e d u p t o th e g a t e s a n d I s a w t h e s e h u g e g a t e s w h ic h
I’ d s e e n b e f o r e i n th e m e d ia a n d th e g a t e s o p e n e d . T h e r e w a s a lo t o f
a c ti v i ty o f s e c u r it y d e t a i l , w e d r o v e i n , m y s o n d r o v e in w i th u s , I
10

a l ig h t e d f r o m t h e v e h ic le s o d i d D u d u z a n e a n d m y s o n c a m e u p to m e
a n d h e s a id to m e in A f r i k a a n s , “ D a d d a is e k w a a r e k d i n k o n s is , D a d
a r e w e w h e r e I t h i n k w e a r e ” , I s a id t o h i m , I t h i n k s o . W e t h e n w e n t t o
t h e s ta ir c a s e , E b e n w a s w it h u s , t h e d o o r w a s o p e n e d , t h e r e ’s a f o y e r
a s y o u e n t e r t h e d o o r a n d w e w e r e a s k e d fo r o u r p h o n e s , w e h a n d e d
o u r p h o n e s o v e r a n d w e w e n t in t o a l o u n g e a r e a w h e r e I w a s i n t r o d u c e d
t o To n y G u p ta , w e l l h e i n t r o d u c e d h i m s e l f a s To n y G u p t a .

C h a ir th e

in it i a l t a l k w e r e – f ir s t t h e y s p o k e t o E b e n . W h a t d o y o u d o E b e n , E b e n
s a i d , n o I ’ m i n t h e I T i n d u s tr y a n d t h e y t h e n s a i d t o h i m , w e l l i f y o u
h a v e a n y b u s i n e s s p r o p o s a ls d o n ’ t h e s i t a te t o c o n t a c t u s a n d s p o k e
20

a b o u t t h e w e a th e r a n d th e i m p o r t a n c e o f s c h o o li n g a n d h e o r d e r e d
some snacks.

T h e p e o p l e t h a t s e r v e d u s w i th t h e s n a c k s – C h a ir I’ m

fr o m K w a Z u l u N a ta l I k n o w I n d i a n a c c e n t a n d I ’v e b e e n to I n d i a , I k n o w
h o w t h e I n d ia n s i n K Z N t a lk a n d I k n o w h o w t h e I n d i a n s in I n d i a t a l k ,
t h e s e p e o p l e d e fi n it e ly a ls o f r o m I n d i a , t h e p e o p l e th a t w e r e b r i n g i n g
t h e s n a c k s a n d t h e y g a v e u s s o m e s n a c k s a n d s o m e s t u ff to d r i n k a n d

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
t h e n a t s o m e p o i n t – a n d t h is i s w h e r e t h i n g s t u r n e d fu n n y h e , t h a t ’s
n o w M r G u p t a , r a is e d t h e i s s u e a b o u t m e b e i n g s h o r tl is te d t o b e c o m e
the head of the Hawks.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d w h o w a s a ll i n t h e r o o m a t t h a t

p a r t ic u l a r p o i n t i n t i m e ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

It was myself, Eben

a n d D u d u z a n e a n d To n y G u p t a .
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d in w h ic h p a r t o f th e h o u s e w e r e y o u w h e n t h is

w a s r a is e d n o w ?
10

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a ir

you

w a lk

u p s ta ir s a n d t h e n t h e r e ’s th is h u g e d o o r t h e n th e r e ’s li k e a n e n tr a n c e
a r e a a n d t h e n i t g o e s in t o a – i t ’s a h u g e l o u n g e a v e r y p o s h l o u n g e .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s o k a y s o i t w a s a lo u n g e ?

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

It was a lounge

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y y e s , s o h e r a i s e d t h is is s u e .

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Ye s

C h a ir, s o

I

s a i d . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :
20

W h a t d i d h e s a y e x a c tl y ?

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

So he said to me, so

I u n d e r s t a n d y o u m ig h t b e c o m e t h e h e a d o f t h e H a w k s . C h a ir v e r y f e w
p e o p l e k n e w th a t I’ d b e e n s h o r t lis t e d fo r t h e p o s t a lt h o u g h t h e r e w a s a
n e w s p a p e r a r t ic le i n K w a Z u l u N a t a l, I t h i n k i t w a s in t h e M e r c u r y, t h a t
s a i d B o o y s e n ’s g o i n g f o r D r a m a t’s j o b o r s o m e t h in g – w o r d s t o th a t
e ffe c t b u t o v e r a n d a b o v e t h a t i t w a s n o t g e n e r a l ly k n o w n t h a t I’ d b e e n

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
s h o r tl is t e d f o r t h a t p o s t a n d I s a i d to h i m , ja i t’s tr u e a n d h e s a id t o m e
b u t if y o u d o g e t a p p o i n t e d th a t w e s h o u l d h a v e a s u p p e r i n K w a Z u l u
N a t a l . I d i d n o t k n o w w h a t t o m a k e o f t h a t , if I g e t a p p o in t e d w e s h o u l d
h a v e s u p p e r i n K w a Z u lu N a t a l, s o I j u s t s m il e d a t h i m a n d n o d d e d m y
h e a d , I d i d n ’ t r e s p o n d b e c a u s e I w a s – i t w a s a b i t o f a n u n c o m f o r ta b le
s i tu a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s b e c a u s e o n th e f a c e o f i t, i t l o o k s li k e h is

in t e r e s t i n h a v in g s u p p e r w i th y o u i n K w a Z u l u N a t a l w o u l d d e p e n d o n
w h e t h e r y o u w e r e a p p o i n te d a s h e a d o f H a w k s o r n o t , i f h e s a y s , i f y o u
10

g e t a p p o i n t e d le t ’s h a v e s u p p e r i n K w a Z u l u N a t a l .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

O n e w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t h e w o u l d b e in t e r e s t e d

in h a v i n g s u p p e r w i t h y o u ir r e s p e c t iv e o f y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t – th e
o u t c o m e o f y o u r i n t e r v i e w.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a ir t h e i m p r e s s io n

I g a i n e d , h e s a i d t o m e , if I ’ m a p p o i n t e d t h e n w e s h o u l d h a v e s u p p e r i n
KZN.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s th a t ’s w h a t I’ m s a y i n g t h a t i t s e e m s s t r a n g e t h a t

h e w o u l d w a n t t o – o r a n y b o d y o u t s i d e o f t h e H a w k s a n y b o d y o u ts id e o f
20

t h e L a w E n f o r c e m e n t A g e n c y s h o u l d o n ly s e e k to h a v e a m e e t in g w i t h
y o u o r s u p p e r w i th y o u , i f y o u a r e a p p o i n t e d . Yo u k n o w, I m e a n , if y o u
m e e t p e o p le s o m e t i m e s y o u f e e l li k e , y o u k n o w, y o u l ik e t h e s e p e o p l e
m a y b e y o u ’ d l ik e t o h a v e t e a o r c o ff e e o r lu n c h w i t h th e m s o m e o th e r
ti m e , y o u d o n ’ t m a k e th a t t o d e p e n d o n a n y th in g y o u j u s t s a y, m a y b e
w e s h o u l d h a v e te a o r l u n c h s o m e o t h e r t i m e .

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s C h a ir.

S o I’ m j u s t s a y i n g i t – o n t h e fa c e o f i t , i t l o o k s q u i t e

s tr a n g e t h a t , th a t w a s t o d e p e n d o n th a t .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Ye s C h a ir. C h a ir n o t

a n y th in g e l s e w a s d i s c u s s e d a b o u t m y s e l f b e i n g a p p o i n t e d o r n o t
a p p o i n t e d . Z a n e d i d n o t ta k e p a r t i n t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n w h a t s o e v e r, i t
w a s a s h o r t d i s c u s s io n , i t c o n ti n u e d w h e r e I th in k m y s o n lik e d t h e
ju ic e t h a t th e y w e r e m a k i n g , h e h a d a s e c o n d c u p o f t h e j u i c e a n d w e
d e c i d e d – w e l l n o t d e c i d e d it w a s c l e a r t h a t w e h a d s a i d w h a t h a d t o b e
10

s a i d a n d I th e n d e p a r t e d b u t n o p r o m i s e s w e r e m a d e , n o u n d e r t a k in g s
were given.
CHAIRPERSON :

No pressure of any sort was put on you to do

a n y th in g o r n o t to d o a n y t h i n g ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o t h i n g , n o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t a g a i n l e t’s g o b a c k to – a s y o u l e f t t h e m e e ti n g

w e r e y o u c le a r a s t o w h a t t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e m e e t in g w a s t h a t – o f th e
m e e ti n g w a s , w h a t w a s t h e p u r p o s e o f t h is m e e ti n g ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a ir I s u s p e c t th a t

w h a t h e w a s tr y i n g t o t e l l m e is th a t s h o u ld I b e a p p o i n te d – a l th o u g h
20

h e d id n o t s a y t h a t, is t h a t, h e p r o b a b l y w o u ld h a v e h a d a h a n d in m y
a p p o i n t m e n t a n d t h a t I m i g h t t h e n h a v e b e e n i n d e b te d t o h i m , a l t h o u g h
it w a s n e v e r s a id t h o s e w e r e m y c o n c lu s i o n s th a t I m a d e .
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t t h e p e r s o n w h o h a d a s k e d f o r t h e m e e t in g w a s n ’t

To n y – i t w a s n ’ t M r To n y G u p t a i t w a s M r D u d u z a n e Z u m a , i s n ’ t i t ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Page 104 of 170

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t a m I r i g h t i n u n d e r s t a n d in g y o u r e v i d e n c e t o b e

t h a t h e a s k e d fo r a m e e ti n g ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Yo u ’r e 1 0 0 % c o r r e c t

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

I d id n o t i n i ti a t e th e

m e e ti n g , t h e y p h o n e d m e .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s , s o t h e r e w e r e n o w – y o u h a d , h a d t h r e e

m e e ti n g s s o t o s p e a k , s o m e o f t h e m m i g h t n o t h a v e la s t e d , y o u k n o w, a
10

lo n g t i m e b u t e a c h o n e d i d n ’ t a p p e a r to b e c l e a r w h a t th e p u r p o s e w a s
a m I r i g h t?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
CHAIRPERSON :

Yo u ’r e r i g h t C h a ir.

Ye s .

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Although

th e

in v e s t i g a t io n th a t th e y w e r e t h e c o m p l a in a n t in w a s d is c u s s e d b u t t h a t
n e v e r s e e m e d to b e t h e .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

T h e r e a s o n f o r th e m e e ti n g .

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
CHAIRPERSON :
20

Ye s C h a ir.

B u t i n t h e s e c o n d m e e ti n g e v e n th e i n v e s t i g a t io n

w a s n ’ t m e n t io n e d i t w a s o n ly t h e f ir s t a n d t h e t h ir d m e e ti n g .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Ye s t h e o n e a t th e

h o s p i ta l . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

J a i t w a s ju s t g r e e t i n g a n d . . . ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
CHAIRPERSON :

Ja okay thank you.

Page 105 of 170

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

F o l lo w i n g th is e n c o u n t e r d i d y o u

h a v e a n y e n g a g e m e n t w i th D u d u z a n e Z u m a a g a i n ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

After

t h is

engagement?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s .

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s I d id C h a ir.

Wa s t h e r e a n y d is c u s s i o n i n r e l a t i o n

t o t h i s m e e t in g t h a t y o u h a d a t th e G u p t a r e s i d e n c e ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

N o C h a ir.

A t t h e t i m e t h a t y o u h a d t h is m e e t in g

o r a n y ti m e b e f o r e , f o r t h e s a k e o f c la r i t y, w e r e y o u in v o lv e d in a n y
in v e s t i g a t io n s in r e l a ti o n to t h e G u p ta f a m i ly ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

N o C h a ir.

O k a y w h a t d i d y o u d o a f t e r h a v in g

t h is m e e t i n g w i t h M r To n y G u p t a , d i d y o u t a k e a n y s t e p s a f te r y o u h a d
t h e m e e ti n g – a ft e r y o u h a d t h is m e e ti n g o n t h e 1 6 t h o f A u g u s t 2 0 1 5 ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a i r o k a y, o b v i o u s ly

I w e n t h o m e a f t e r w a r d s w i th m y s o n E b e n . A t th a t p o i n t in t i m e i t h a d
b e c o m e a b u n d a n tl y c le a r to m e t h a t N t le m e z a w a s n o t s o m e o n e t o b e
20

tr u s t e d . I h a d t o r e p o r t t o h i m a n d I w a s d e f in i te ly n o t g o i n g t o r e p o r t
s u c h a th i n g to h i m . In th e m e a n t i m e w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d is , t h e l o b b y
g r o u p s h a d b r o u g h t i n a n a p p lic a ti o n t o s e t a s id e a p p o in t m e n t o f
G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a f o r n o t b e i n g fi t a n d p r o p e r, b e c a u s e o f a r u l in g , I
t h i n k i t w a s J u d g e E li a s M o h tiy a n e in th e S ib iy a m a t t e r w h e r e h e s a i d
t h a t h e h a d l i e d u n d e r o a t h a n d t h a t h e l a c k s i n t e g r i ty. T h e C o u r t r u le d

Page 106 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
in th e ir f a v o u r, i t w a s a p p e a l e d i t w e n t t o th e S C A w h e r e G e n e r a l
N tl e m e z a b a s ic a l ly l o s t h i s c a s e a n d I th i n k I ’v e w r i t te n t h e d a t e
s o m e w h e r e in m y s t a t e m e n t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h a t w o u ld b e p a g e 5 0 p a r a g r a p h

1 .6 . 6 w h e r e y o u s a y o n t h e 1 3 t h o f J u n e 2 0 1 7 . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir

o n th e 1 3 t h o f J u n e 2 0 1 7 a t h a l f p a s t t h r e e t h e a f t e r n o o n I p r e p a r e d a
s t a te m e n t a b o u t th is m e e t in g t h a t I h a d a t t h e G u p ta c o m p o u n d a n d o n
t h a t p a r t ic u l a r d a y t h e j u d g m e n t c a m e o u t th a t N t le m e z a w a s fi n a l ly t o
10

b e r e m o v e d f r o m t h e H a w k s . Th e a c ti n g h e a d o f th e H a w k s t h e n w a s
G e n e r a l M a t a k a t a , Yo l i M a t a k a t a a n d I p h o n e d h e r a n d I s a id t o h e r I
w o u ld l ik e t o m e e t h e r.

I l e f t m y o ffi c e in C e n tu r i o n a n d s h e le f t

P r e t o r i a , s h e w a s o n h e r w a y t o t h e a ir p o r t . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s o r r y I j u s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e I f o ll o w.

Pending

h is a p p e a l o r p e t i ti o n t o th e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l , G e n e r a l
N tl e m e z a w a s h e o n s u s p e n s i o n o r w a s h e a t w o r k ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

No he was at work

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :
20

H e w a s a t w o r k o h , w h e n y o u ta lk a b o u t s o m e b o d y

a c ti n g i n h is p o s i ti o n y o u m e a n a f t e r h e h a d b e e n r e m o v e d ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

S o C h a i r w h e n th e

S C A c o n f ir m e d th a t h e h a d t o b e r e m o v e d , h e h a d n o m o r e r e c o u r s e
a n d s o – t h e r e w e r e a f e w d e v e lo p m e n ts t h e r e w h e r e t h e m in is t e r
a c t u a ll y h a d t o g o a n d p h y s i c a ll y b o o t h i m o u t o f h is o ff ic e a n d h e l e f t
w i t h a c a r, t h a t w a s a l l i n t h e m e d i a .

Page 107 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t w a s a d i ff e r e n t M i n is te r. . .( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

T h a t w a s M in is t e r

Fi k i le M b a lu l a .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

S o C h a ir I p r e p a r e d a

s t a te m e n t a s t o w h a t – a b o u t t h e m e e ti n g , I m e t G e n e r a l M a t a k a t a a t –
w h a t ’s th a t p l a c e c a ll e d , a t M c D o n a l d s . . .( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

O h I’ m s o r r y M a j o r G e n e r a l B o o y s e n , m a y b e w e

s h o u l d a d jo u r n n o w, th e n w h e n w e c o m e b a c k y o u c a n t h e n t e l l u s . I
10

s e e i t is a b o u t o n e m i n u te p a s t o n e , o k a y w e ’ ll t a k e t h e l u n c h
a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e ’l l r e s u m e a t t w o .
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you let us proceed.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Before the

lo n g a d jo u r n m e n t G e n e r a l B o o y s e n y o u w e r e ta lk in g a b o u t th e m e e ti n g
t h a t y o u h a d a t th e G u p t a c o m p o u n d a n d t h a t s u b s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y, I a m s o r r y Ms S e p t e m b e r. Th a n k y o u .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A n d t h e n y o u
20

s p o k e a b o u t t h a t o n t h e 1 3 J u n e 2 0 1 7 y o u h a d h a n d e d a n a ffi d a v i t t o
M a jo r G e n e r a l M a t a k a t a a n d th a t i s a t p a r a g r a p h 1 6 6 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t .
Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

Is there anything that you

w o u ld lik e to a d d ?

Page 108 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir …
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I n r e l a ti o n t o t h a t ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESS EL BOO YSEN : Just on that point. I
a m n o t c a s ti n g a n y a s p e r s io n s o n G e n e r a l M a ta k a t a . I m e r e ly h a n d e d
her the document.

I a m n o t a w a r e w h a t tr a n s p i r e d a f t e r w a r d s .

She

m a y o r m a y h a v e n o t s o I d o n o t w a n t i t t o b e r e a d th a t I a m c a s t i n g
a s p e r s i o n s o n h e r b e c a u s e s h e is a n e x c o l le a g u e o f m in e w i th w h o m I
h a d h a d a h e a lt h y r e l a t i o n s h ip a n d I s ti ll h a v e a h e a l th y r e l a ti o n s h i p
w i t h h e r. S o f o r p u r p o s e s o f m y e v i d e n c e I j u s t w a n t to c l e a r t h a t u p .
10

CHAIRPERSON :

B u t w o u l d s h e h a v e b e e n th e o n e w h o w o u ld a c t o n

t h e – o n y o u r c o m p la in t a s I u n d e r s ta n d i t .

Yo u r a ff i d a v i t w a s a

c o m p la i n t a g a in s t G e n e r a l N t l e mz a i s t h a t r ig h t o r n o t r e a lly ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o n o t r e a lly C h a ir i t
w a s m o r e – I w a n t e d t o b r in g i t to – b e c a u s e a t th a t ju n c t u r e th e r e w e r e
t h e s e a l le g a ti o n s a b o u t t h e G u p ta ’s a n d s t a te c a p tu r e . S o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOO YSEN : I just thought it would
b e p r u d e n t fo r m e to b r in g t h a t t o h e r a t te n ti o n t h a t I h a d m e t w it h t h e
G u p t a ’s m y s e l f .
20

CHAIRPERSON :

O h , o h s o t h e a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u h a n d e d to M a jo r

G e n e r a l M a t a k a t a w a s t o b r i n g t o h e r a t t e n t io n a s th e a c ti n g h e a d o f
t h e H a w k s th a t y o u h a d m e t w i t h t h e G u p t a ’s ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d n o t h i n g e ls e r e a l ly ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

Page 109 of 170

A n d n o t h i n g e ls e

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o th a n k y o u .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : G e n e r a l B o o y s e n a r e y o u a w a r e
a s t o w h e t h e r o r n o t a n y – a n y t h i n g h a p p e n e d a f t e r h a n d in g i n t h e
a ffi d a v i t ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

I am not aware of

a n y th in g p u r s u a n t t o my a ffi d a v it C h a ir b u t t h e r e m a y o r m a y n o t h a v e
b e e n s te p s t a k e n u p I a m n o t p r iv y t o t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t o f c o u r s e i f t h e y d i d n o t th i n k t h e r e w a s a n y t h i n g
10

w r o n g w i th y o u h a v in g m e t w i t h t h e G u p t a ’s th e y w o u l d n o t h a v e to d o
a n y th in g a b o u t i t , is t h a t r ig h t ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I a g r e e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

I f y o u c o u l d t h e n g o b a c k to

M a jo r G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a i t is o n p a g e 5 3 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t a n d p a r a g r a p h
1 7 7 t h a t y o u m a k e t h e f o ll o w i n g s t a t e m e n t a n d t h a t is t h a t h e w a s
u n d o u b t e d ly h a n d p ic k e d fo r t h e p o s i ti o n .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

W h ic h p a r a g r a p h i s

that?
20

A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o r r y i t is p a r a g r a p h 1 7 7 .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : C a n y o u p l e a s e e x p la i n t h a t ?
CHAIRPERSON : Sorry 13?
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

A p o l o g ie s C h a ir i t is p a g e 5 3

paragraph 177.

Page 110 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
CHAIRPERSON : Oh. Thank you.
MAJOR

GENERAL

JOHAN

WESSEL

s u b s t a n t ia t e m y a s s e r t io n t h e r e .

BOOYSEN :

C h a ir

I

w ill

In the period that I worked with

G e n e r a l N t le m e z a h e d i d n o t d e m o n s tr a t e t o m e th a t h e h a d r e m o t e ly
t h e a b il it y t o l e a d a n i m p o r t a n t i n s t i tu t io n l ik e t h e H a w k s . S e c o n d ly t h e
m e r e f a c t th a t a j u d g e in t h e h ig h c o u r t h a d fo u n d h i m t o b e d i s h o n e s t,
la c k i n g in t e g r i ty a n d i n s p i t e o f t h a t M i n is t e r N h l e k o s t il l a p p o in ts h i m .
I t h i n k t h e r e s t o f w h a t e m e r g e d a f te r h is a p p o i n t m e n t, h is in t e r f e r e n c e
in a n u m b e r o f i n v e s ti g a t i o n s c l e a r ly i n d i c a te s to m e h e w a s a p p o i n t e d
10

f o r a s p e c i fic r e a s o n . T h a t is th e o n ly – t h a t is th e o n ly u n e s c a p a b l e
conclusion that I can come to.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d w h a t r e a s o n w a s t h a t? Yo u
s a y th a t h e w a s a p p o i n t e d to t h a t p o s i ti o n f o r a v e r y p a r ti c u la r r e a s o n ?
W h a t r e a s o n a r e y o u a ll u d i n g t o ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : W e ll C h a ir w e ll t o – t o
in t e r fe r e w i th i n v e s ti g a t i o n s s u c h a s t h e m e e t in g w it h G e n e r a l N g o b e n i .
S u c h a s i n te r f e r in g w i t h C o l o n e l R o e l o f s e i n t h a t in v e s t i g a t io n .

Th e

f a c t t h a t I r e p o r t – I p e r s o n a l ly r e p o r t e d c o r r u p ti o n t o h i m a n d h e d id
a b s o l u t e ly n o t h in g a b o u t it .
20

To m e i t is a b u n d a n tl y c le a r t h a t th e r e

w e r e c e r t a i n m a t te r s th a t h e h a d to d e a l w i t h .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : W a s h e i n v o lv e d i n t h e P a n d a y
case at all?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

In d ir e c tly C h a ir

b e c a u s e G e n e r a l N g o b e n i w a s p a r t o f t h e P a n d a y in v e s t i g a t io n . S o i n
m e e ti n g h e r I w o u ld s u g g e s t th a t i n a w a y i n d i r e c t ly h e i n te r f e r e d w i th

Page 111 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
t h a t i n v e s t ig a ti o n .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

A r e y o u th e n s u g g e s t in g a n d

p l e a s e c o r r e c t m e i f I a m w r o n g a r e y o u s u g g e s t in g th a t h e p r o t e c t e d
a n y p a r ti c u l a r i n te r e s t s ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s I d o C h a ir.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d w h o s e i n t e r e s ts m i g h t th a t
have been?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir i f o n e g o e s b a c k
in t o t h e h is to r y w h e n G e n e r a l D r a m a t w a s t h e h e a d o f th e H a w k s h e
10

p e r s o n a l ly – h e a c ti v e ly p u r s u e d t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s a g a i n s t R ic h a r d
M d lu li . H e b a c k e d m e i n m y i n v e s ti g a t i o n s . A f t e r h e w a s – a f te r h e l e f t
t h e s e r v ic e t h e r e w e r e r u m o u r s i n t h e m e d i a t h a t h e h a d a p p r o a c h e d
G e n e r a l M e n u f o r t h e N k a n d l a d o c k e t . A w h i le l a t e r w h i le I w a s in C a p e
To w n w h e n I la u n c h e d m y b o o k h e a c t u a l l y c a m e to t h e l a u n c h a n d t h e
d a y a f t e r w e h a d c o ff e e a n d I t h o u g h t I w a n t to v e r i fy t h a t w i t h h i m
p e r s o n a l ly. A n d I a s k e d h i m , d i d y o u a s k f o r t h e N k a n d l a d o c k e t a n d h e
s a i d t o m e y e s h e d i d . S o m y c o n c l u s io n is th a t t h e y h a d to g e t r i d o f
D r a m a t b e c a u s e h e w a s lo o k in g a t t h e M d lu li ’s o f t h e d a y, h e w a s
backing

20

B o o y s e n i n t h e P a n d a y i n v e s ti g a ti o n

in v e s t i g a t io n s .

and

various other

H e p la c e d h i m w i th s o m e u n p li a b l e li k e N t le m e z a a n d

a l l o f a s u d d e n a ll t h o s e in v e s t i g a t io n s b a s ic a l ly b e c a m e d o r m a n t
a g a in .
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

I f w e c a n th e n m o v e o n t o t h e

n e x t i n d iv id u a l th a t y o u m e n t io n e d in …

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l M s S e p t e m b e r b e fo r e y o u m o v e o n I s e e t h a t a t
p a g e 5 1 t h e r e is m e n t i o n o f Zik h a l i a n d I w o n d e r w h e t h e r t h a t i s th e
p e r s o n t h a t m a y h a v e b e e n a p p o in t e d t o y o u r p o s i ti o n . C a n y o u c o v e r
t h a t a n d I s e e th e r e is r e f e r e n c e t o L ie u t e n a n t C o l o n e l S o n n e k u s , A d e le
S o n n e k u s a n d m a y b e t h a t is t h e l a d y t h a t – t h a t w a s t r a n s f e r r e d –
s u s p e n d e d a n d tr a n s f e r r e d .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : So let us cover that?
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s . O k a y.
10

CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

I may have been mistaken I

t h o u g h t t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e i n r e l a t i o n to S o n n e k u s w a s a lr e a d y c o v e r e d
b u t I a m h a p p y to d o s o a g a in .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l w e d i d n o t h a v e t h e n a m e i f I r e c a l l c o r r e c tl y o r
d i d I m i s u n d e r s ta n d ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

N o , n o C h a ir w e h a d

h e r n a m e I th i n k t h e n a m e I h a d fo r g o t t e n w a s t h e p e r s o n t h a t
in tr o d u c e d m e to D u d u z a n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
20

MAJOR GENERAL J OHAN WESSEL BOO YSEN : And as we adjourned
a s I g o t u p I r e a lis e d t h e n a m e it is W in s t o n I n n e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y th a t i s t h e n a m e th a t w e d i d n o t h a v e .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y n o t h e n I m u s t h a v e – b u t Z ik h a li ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESS EL BOOYSEN :

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C h a ir t h a t i s t h e

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
p e r s o n t h a t N tl e m e z a a p p o i n te d to t a k e o v e r fr o m m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t h a t is i m p o r t a n t t o …
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : I did not hear that part.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : So …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL B OOYSEN :

C h a ir w h e n h e

a p p o i n t e d Z ik h a li a ft e r – w h il e I w a s a c tu a l ly s ti ll i n t h e p o s t.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
10

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

It became evident to

m e fr o m r e p o r ts f r o m K w a Z u l u N a t a l b e c a u s e I s ti ll c o m m u n i c a t e w i t h
t h e H a w k s fr e q u e n t ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL B OOYSEN :

T h a t t h i n g s th a t

N tl e m e z a p l a c e d i n m o t i o n h e c o n ti n u e d w i t h t h a t .

F o r i n s ta n c e t h e

r e m o v a l o f C o l o n e l S o n n e k u s fr o m h e r p o s t .

I n s p i te o f t h e f a c t t h a t

t h e y k n e w th a t i t w a s u n l a w fu l t h e y w e r e s t e a d fa s t a n d r e s o l u te a n d n o t
a n d h e w a s t h e l e a d e r, h e w a s d r iv i n g t h e b u s a t t h e ti m e a n d n o t
a l lo w in g h e r t o g o b a c k to h e r p o s t .
20

CHAIRPERSON : That is now?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Z ik h a l i.
CHAIRPERSON :

Z i k h a li h e w a s – h e w a s l e a d i n g t h e a t t e m p ts t o

remove Sonnekus?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

By then – when he

w a s a p p o i n t e d C h a ir s h e h a d a lr e a d y b e e n r e m o v e d .

Page 114 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN W ESSEL BOOYSEN:

But when she came

back…
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

S h e w a s tr a n s f e r r e d

a n d h e i s t h e o n e w h o t o l d h e r t h a t s h e i s b e i n g tr a n s fe r r e d . S o i t is
c le a r t o m e h e w a s s t il l d o i n g t h e b i d d i n g o f w h a t N tl e m e z a h a d s e t in
m o t io n .
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
10

A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M u c h o f t h e
o th e r e v i d e n c e h a s a lr e a d y b e e n c o v e r e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y o k a y. I w i ll l e t y o u k n o w i f I p i c k u p s o m e th i n g
t h a t I d o n o t r e m e m b e r.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I w e lc o m e y o u r d ir e c ti o n C h a ir.
T h e n e x t in d iv i d u a l is r e fl e c t e d o n p a g e 5 5 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t a n d t h a t is
p a r a g r a p h 1 8 4 . T h e p e r s o n m a r k e d is R i a h P h iy e g a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y I t h in k h e – I t h i n k h e m u s t – h e m u s t d e a l
w i t h p a r a g r a p h 1 7 1 I k n o w h e h a s d e a lt w i t h i t i n a c e r t a i n w a y b u t I
t h i n k i t is q u it e a n i m p o r t a n t th i n g a n d I t h i n k s o m e o f t h e s e t h a t c o m e

20

t h e r e I th in k in t h a t p a r a g r a p h a n d t h e s u b s e q u e n t – a n d s o m e o f th e
paragraph

that

come

after

th a t

he

seems

to

i n d ic a te

s p e c if ic

a p p o i n t m e n ts a n d t h e r e s e e ms t o b e s i g n i fi c a n c e t h a t h e a t t a c h e s to
t h o s e a p p o i n t m e n ts a n d I t h i n k i t is i m p o r t a n t t h a t w e h e a r w h a t h e h a s
t o – th e e v i d e n c e j a
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

N o p r o b le m .

Page 115 of 170

If I could then

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
t a k e y o u to p a r a g r a p h 1 7 1 o n p a g e 5 2 .
CHAIRPERSON : I am there.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d a s k y o u t o p l e a s e e x p l a i n
t h a t to t h e C h a ir.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a i r th e r e w a s – t h e
H a w k s w h e n w e in h e r i t e d t h e Sc o r p i o n s w e a l s o i n h e r i t e d t h e y h a d
c h a r te r e d a c c o u n t a n t s w o r k in g w i t h t h e m .

So in KZN we had a

B r i g a d ie r V l e c k w h o w a s t h e c h a r t e r e d a c c o u n ta n t w h i c h i s v e r y
necessary
10

in

i n v e s t ig a ti n g

these

c o m p l ic a t e d

fi n a n c i a l

m a t te r s .

N tl e m e z a m a d e V le c k ’s l i fe a li v i n g h e l l . H e b a s ic a l ly f o r c e d h i m o u t h e
e v e n t u a l ly r e s ig n e d . S o a s w e s p e a k t h e r e i s n o c h a r t e r e d a c c o u n ta n t
w o r k i n g w i t h t h e H a w k s i n K Z N a s f a r a s I a m a w a r e . H e h a d a p p o i n te d
p e o p l e a t p r o v i n c i a l l e v e l a n d i f y o u lo o k a t t h e – a n d t h e a p p o i n t m e n ts
a r e p e o p l e t h a t I w o u l d r e g a r d a s i n c o m p e te n t C h a ir I d e a l w i t h t h e m
and I know some of them.

W e l l in c o m p e te n t in t h a t p a r t ic u l a r f ie l d .

T h e y m i g h t b e c o m p e te n t in th e u n i f o r m b r a n c h .

S o m e o f th e s e n i o r

p e o p l e th a t h e a p p o in t e d c o m e s fr o m t h e u n i fo r m b r a n c h . T h e y d o n o t
h a v e a n y i n v e s ti g a tiv e e x p e r i e n c e .
le v e ls .
20

S o i t c a s c a d e d d o w n to a ll t h e

S o f r o m p r o v i n c i a l l e v e l t o p r o v in c i a l c o m m a n d e r l e v e l t h e y

w o u ld th e n s ta r t a s p o s t s b e c a m e a v a il a b l e t o – a n d C h a i r d u r i n g –
w h il e I w a s s ti ll th e r e t h e r e w a s a c t u a l ly a s t a n d i n g jo k e a m o n g s t th e
p r o v i n c i a l h e a d s th e m a jo r i ty o f t h e p e o p l e th a t h e a p p o i n te d e i t h e r
c a m e fr o m t h e E a s t e r n C a p e w h e r e h e c o m e s fr o m o r ig i n a ll y o r f r o m
L i m p o p o w h e r e h e – w h e r e h e h a d b e e n f o r t h e la t t e r p a r t o f h i s c a r e e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 116 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

Chair and there was

o n c e a t e c h n i c a l s e c t io n t h e r e w h i c h w a s b a s ic a l ly c l o s e d d o w n t h a t
d e a lt w it h t h e d o w n lo a d i n g o f c e ll p h o n e s a n d a n a ly s is o f c e ll p h o n e s .
S o i n g e n e r a l C h a ir I c a n s a y th a t a n u m b e r i f n o t t h e v a s t m a jo r i ty o f
h i g h ly s k i ll e d d e t e c ti v e s a r e e i t h e r n o w b a c k i n S A P S w i t h th e g e n e r a l
d e t e c t iv e s . S o m e r e s i g n e d a n d s o m e l e f t t h r o u g h n a tu r a l a t tr i ti o n .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

I s i t a ls o c o r r e c t t h a t M a jo r

G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a r e p l a c e d M a j o r G e n e r a l M o ts e p e a s t h e n a t i o n a l
h e a d o f c o m m e r c ia l c r i m e w i th M a j o r G e n e r a l A l fr e d K h a n a ?
10

M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir w h a t h a p p e n e d
there is when…
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th a n k y o u . P le a s e p r o c e e d .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir w h a t h a p p e n e d
t h e r e is w h e n t h e p r e v i o u s n a ti o n a l h e a d o f c o m m e r c ia l c r i m e G e n e r a l
H a n s M e ir i n g w e n t o n r e ti r e m e n t G e n e r a l D r a m a t a p p o in t e d G e n e r a l
M o ts e p e i n to t h e p o s i ti o n h a s h e a d o f c o m m e r c ia l c r i m e . A n d I k n o w
G e n e r a l M o ts e p e i s a v e r y c a p a b l e c o m p e te n t p e r s o n w h o c a n h a n d l e

20

t h a t p o s t . B u t w h e n N t le m e z a a s s u m e d o ffi c e h e tr a n s f e r r e d M o t s e p e
a n d c r e a te d a v a c a n c y a n d th e p o s t w a s a d v e r ti s e d a n d th e p e r s o n t h a t
h e t h e n a p p o i n t e d in t h a t p o s t i s a p e r s o n b y t h e n a m e o f G e n e r a l
A l fr e d K h a n a .

N o w K h a n a ’s h is to r y C h a ir h e w a s t h e p r o v i n c ia l

c o m m a n d e r f r o m c o m m e r c i a l c r i m e i n a c o u p l e o f y e a r p r e v i o u s l y. A n d
a c c o r d i n g to G e n e r a l H a n s M e ir i n g h e h a d b e e n b u s y w i th a n

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
in v e s t i g a t io n a g a in s t G e n e r a l K h a n a r e l a ti n g t o c o u n te r f e it g o o d s . A n d
it a p p e a r s t h a t K h a n a r e a l is e d th e w r i ti n g w a s o n t h e w a l l a n d h e
r e s ig n e d .

H e th e n w e n t t o a n o t h e r g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t I c a n n o t

r e c a l l w h ic h o n e it w a s b u t n e v e r t h e l e s s h e la n d e d u p b a c k w i t h t h e
H a w k s b e i n g th e h e a d o f c o m m e r c i a l c r i m e . A n d w h il e I a m t h e r e C h a ir
a c o u p l e o f m o n t h s a g o I r e c e i v e d a c a ll fr o m a C a p t a i n i n E a s t L o n d o n
I d o n o t k n o w h i m a t a l l. I t i s a b l a c k g e n tl e m a n . H e m e t m e h e r e o n
t h e – n e x t to th e r o a d a n d h e h a n d e d m e a p il e o f d o c u m e n ts a n d h e
c o m p la i n e d
10

to

me

that

General

Khana

was

i n te r f e r i n g

with

an

in v e s t i g a t io n i n t o m u l t i - m il li o n r a n d c o r r u p t i o n w h i c h in v o lv e s t h e
M i n is t e r D la m i n i .

I t o o k p o s s e s s i o n o f t h o s e d o c u m e n ts . I p h o n e d

B r i g a d ie r B a s s i e fr o m t h e H a w k s h e a d o ff ic e . I m e t h i m t h e f o l lo w i n g
day at the Wimpy in – at Attebury where I explained to him what had
occurred and I handed him those docum ents.

T h e r e a r e a ls o o th e r

in d i c a t io n s C h a ir I h a v e b e e n p h o n e d b y a n d I w o u l d n o t l ik e to m e n t io n
t h is p e r s o n b e c a u s e th e n t h e y m i g h t o s tr a c is e h i m .
e x p e r i e n c e d i n v e s ti g a ti n g o ffic e r i n K w a Z u l u N a ta l .

I t is a v e r y

H e w a s d e a li n g

w i t h a n in v e s t i g a t io n o f a p p o in t m e n ts o r a p p l ic a t i o n s f o r a m e d ic a l
s c h o o l i n K w a Z u lu N a t a l U n iv e r s i ty w h i c h a ls o r e l a te d t o c e r t a i n c o r r u p t
20

a c ti v i ti e s . A n d h e a ls o c o m p l a in e d t o m e t h a t G e n e r a l K h a n a h a d b e e n
in t e r fe r i n g in t o th a t i n v e s t ig a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : U n le s s t h e r e is a n y t h i n g e ls e i n
r e l a ti o n t o t h is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o y o u c a n c o n t in u e .

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. S o t h e n e x t
in d i v i d u a l i s R i a h P h i y e g a . M u c h d e t a il is c o n ta i n e d in y o u r a ff i d a v i t in
r e l a ti o n t o i t b u t I a s k y o u j u s t – e x c u s e m e . G e n e r a l B o o y s e n t o t h e
e x t e n t t h a t w e h a v e n o t d e a l t w i t h a n y p a r ti c u l a r p a r a g r a p h in – u n d e r
M a jo r G e n e r a l N t l e m e z a d o y o u c o n fi r m i t t o b e c o r r e c t ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I d o C h a ir.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y. I n r e l a ti o n …
CHAIRPERSON :

W e l l I t h o u g h t a t t h e b e g i n n in g h e c o n fir m e d

e v e r y t h i n g i n h is a ffi d a v it to b e c o r r e c t b u t w e h a v e g o t t o – w e h a v e
10

g o t t o c o v e r i m p o r t a n t th i n g s b e c a u s e e v i d e n c e r e la t in g to L a w
E n f o r c e m e n t A g e n c i e s is v e r y i m p o r t a n t a n d i f t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t M a j o r
G e n e r a l B o o y s e n is g i v i n g i s tr u e th e r e a r e r e a l ly v e r y s e r i o u s t h i n g s
t h a t h a v e b e e n h a p p e n in g t h a t s h o u l d n o t h a v e h a p p e n e d .

I t is v e r y

i m p o r t a n t t h a t w e d e a l w i t h – w i t h th e s e i s s u e s p r o p e r l y.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y.

W e d o n o t h a v e t o d e a l w i t h e v e r y d e ta il b u t

w e m u s t c o v e r i m p o r t a n t th i n g s .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

General

B o o y s e n w h a t w a s t h e d i ffe r e n c e i n a p p r o a c h o r r a t h e r l e t m e p u t it t o –
20

a s k y o u it – a s k y o u d i ffe r e n tly. Wa s R i a h P h iy e g a in v o lv e d i n b o t h th e
C a t o M a n o r m a t t e r a n d th e M d lu li m a t t e r ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

I would not say the

C a t o M a n o r m a t t e r b u t d e fi n i t e l y th e B o o y s e n m a t te r a n d t h e M d l u l i
m a t t e r.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

And when you mean Booysen

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
m a t t e r c a n y o u j u s t c la r i fy t h a t p l e a s e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t i s h is m a t te r.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y th e n …
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u w a n t t o – y o u w i ll n o t f i n d o u t w h a t r o l e s h e

p l a y e d , is th a t w h a t y o u w a n t ?
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I n f a c t – m y q u e s t io n is s l i g h t ly
d i ff e r e n t a n d t h a t i s c a n y o u p l e a s e e x p l a i n w h a t i s t h e d i ff e r e n c e i n
a p p r o a c h th a t R i a h P h i y e g a a d o p t e d to y o u r m a t t e r a s c o m p a r e d t o t h e
M d lu li m a t t e r ?
10

M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir t h e p o i n t I w a n t
t o m a k e h e r e is if y o u [i n d is t in c t ] d e p o s e s h e r a p p r o a c h r e M d l u li a n d
r e B o o y s e n t h e y w e r e v a s t ly d i ff e r e n t . I n t h e M d lu li m a t te r y o u h a v e a
h i g h c o u r t ju d g e , J u d g e M u r p h y w h o c r i ti c is e d G e n e r a l P h iy e g a f o r
a l m o s t w a n t in g N d l u l i t o c o m e b a c k to w o r k in s p it e o f v e r y s e r i o u s
a l le g a ti o n s h a n g i n g o v e r h i s h e a d . E x c u s e m e C h a ir. In m y m a t t e r i n
s p i t e o f t h e c o u r t h a v in g r u l e d th a t t h e r e is n o c a s e a g a i n s t m e i n a
r e v ie w a p p l ic a ti o n in s p it e o f a p e r s o n t h a t s h e h a d a p p o i n te d A d v o c a te
N a s e e r C a s s i e m to d o a h e a r i n g o n m e w h o e x o n e r a t e d m e s h e w a s
b e n t – s h e w a s h e ll b e n t o n g e t ti n g r i d o f m e . S h e o ff e r e d m e t h o s e

20

t h r e e o p t i o n s w h i c h I t e s ti f ie d a b o u t l a t e r.

Chair what – what I have

f o r g o t t e n t o m e n ti o n i s a n d I – w h e n I w e n t b a c k t o w o r k I r e c e iv e d a n d
I w e n t b a c k in S e p t e m b e r a n d t h a t D e c e m b e r I r e c e i v e d a n o t ic e fr o m
h e r t h a t I s h o u l d i n d ic a te t o h e r w h y I s h o u l d n o t b e d i s m is s e d fr o m t h e
p o li c e . I t d id n o t m a k e s e n s e to m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O u t o f t h e b lu e ?

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : O u t o f t h e b lu e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

Yo u h a d b e e n to c o u r t .

Yo u h a d b e e n v i n d ic a te d .

T h e n y o u w e r e t o l d a b o u t th r e e o p ti o n s b u t s u b s e q u e n t ly y o u g o t
c o r r e s p o n d e n c e s a y i n g y o u m u s t s a y w h y y o u s h o u l d n o t b e d i s m is s e d .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s tr u e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t r e a s o n w a s o ff e r e d a s to w h y y o u r d is m i s s a l
w a s b e i n g c o n t e m p la t e d ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

C h a i r s h e q u o te d a

s e c t io n i n t h e p o l ic e r e g u l a ti o n s w h ic h b a s ic a l ly w e r e d e s i g n e d i f p o s ts
10

b e c a m e I a m lo o k i n g f o r t h e c o r r e c t w o r d n o w.
CHAIRPERSON : Redundant.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :
r ig h t th a n k y o u C h a ir.

R e d u n d a n t t h a t is

I f a p o s t b e c o m e s r e d u n d a n t th e n y o u c a n b e

r e l i e v e d o f y o u r d u t i e s a n d th e y w i ll t h e n p a y y o u o u t f o r t h e r e m a in d e r
o f y o u r c o n tr a c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h a t w o u l d b e i f n o b o d y i s g o in g t o c o n ti n u e t o d o
t h e jo b th a t y o u w e r e d o i n g I w o u l d a s s u m e ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : But…
20

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : I think she…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r p o s i ti o n w a s n o t r e d u n d a n t w a s i t ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o i t w a s n o t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

S o t h e l e t te r y o u r e c e iv e d f r o m h e r w a s a l o n g t h o s e

li n e s ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BO OYSEN :

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Al o n g t h o s e li n e s

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : So it was saying your post has become redundant and
y o u m u s t s a y w h y y o u s h o u l d n o t b e d i s c h a r g e d o r d is m is s e d b l a , b l a ,
bla.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

She did not go into

t h o s e d e t a ils s h e j u s t m e n ti o n e d th e r e g u l a ti o n s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s o k a y.

B u t t h e g i s t o f th e le t t e r w a s t h a t i t w a s

a s k in g f o r y o u r r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s a s to w h y
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL B OOYSEN :
10

I s h o u ld n o t b e

d is m i s s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s h o u l d n o t b e d i s m is s e d .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o w C h a ir t h a t t o m e
did not make sense at all.

O n th e o n e h a n d y o u h a v e s o m e o n e lik e

R i c h a r d M d l u l i w h o h a s s e r i o u s c h a r g e s o f fr a u d , c o r r u p ti o n , m u r d e r,
k id n a p p in g h a n g i n g o v e r h is h e a d . T h e c o u r ts h a v e p r o n o u n c e d o n t h a t
a n d s h e i s s ti ll a c t iv e ly a t te m p t s to g e t h i m b a c k t o t h e o ffic e b y m a k i n g
a n – o r d e p o s i n g t o a n a ffi d a v i t i n th e M d l u l i m a t te r in t h e h i g h c o u r t
a n d th e j u d g e a c t u a l ly c r i tic is e d h e r f o r th a t. A n d i n my m a t t e r i n s p i te
o f b e i n g th e c o u r t s h a v i n g f o u n d i n m y f a v o u r a n d t h e d is c i p l i n a r y
20

o ffic e r I r e fu s e d t o t a k e a n y o f th e t h r e e o p ti o n s , I g o b a c k t o w o r k a n d
in t h a t D e c e m b e r I th i n k s h e g a v e m e t w o w e e k s t o s a y w h y I s h o u l d
n o t b e d i s m is s e d fr o m t h e p o l ic e a n d t h e t w o w e e k s e x p ir e d I t h in k o n
t h e 2 3 D e c e m b e r a n d C h a ir I k n o w h o w t h e y o p e r a te . I k n e w w h a t w a s
g o i n g to h a p p e n .

N o m a t t e r w h a t I s a y o n t h e 2 3 r d w h e n th e ti m e

e x p ir e s I w o u l d h a v e g o t t e n a l e t t e r li k e G e n e r a l S i b i y a h a d g o t t e n t h a t

Page 122 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
I a m d is m i s s e d a n d t h e s a m e t h i n g h a p p e n e d t o S h a d r a c k S i b i y a a n d i t
t a k e s y o u fo r e v e r a n d a d a y b y th e ti m e I w o u ld h a v e w o n my c a s e s t o
g e t b a c k t o o ffi c e I w o u l d h a v e r e tir e d i n a n y e v e n t . S o I w r o t e a le t t e r
b a c k t o h e r I g a v e h e r tw o d a y s t o w i t h d r a w t h a t l e tt e r o r e l s e I w i ll
s e e k r e l i e f fr o m t h e c o u r t . A n d t h e n I t h i n k i t w a s a r o u n d a b o u t t h e 2 0 t h
a d a y o r t w o b e fo r e t h e d a te e x p i r e d I r e c e iv e d a l e t t e r fr o m h e r o ff ic e
n o t s ig n e d b y h e r s ta t in g fr o m o n e o f h e r o ff ic e r s t h a t t h e g e n e r a l o r
t h e c o m m i s s i o n e r is n o t a v a il a b l e t o a r tic u la t e h e r r e s p o n s e a n d t h e n I
r e a l is e d th e y w e r e le a d i n g m e in t o a tr a p b e c a u s e I k n e w w h a t w a s
10

g o i n g t o h a p p e n o n th e 2 3 r d o r 2 4 t h . B e c a u s e b y t h e n i t is C h r i s t m a s
E v e t h e r e i s n o c o u r ts to a p p r o a c h s o I i m m e d i a t e ly s e t o ff a n d w e n t t o
t h e h i g h c o u r t I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r i f i t w a s t h e h i g h c o u r t o r t h e la b o u r
c o u r t a n d o b t a i n e d t h e in t e r d ic t a g a i n s t h e r a n d t h a t is w h e r e t h e
matter ended.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u e v e r h e a r w h a t t h e f a c tu a l b a s i s w a s f o r h e r
t o r e g a r d y o u r p o s i t io n a s r e d u n d a n t ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

C h a ir t h e r e w a s n o

b a s is .
CHAIRPERSON : And she did not advance any?
20

M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : T h e r e w a s a b s o l u te ly
n o v a li d r e a s o n o r l a w f u l r e a s o n th a t s h e h a d t o – t h a t s h e c o u ld h a v e
d is m i s s e d m e fr o m m y p o s t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e th e r e w a s a l w a y s g o i n g t o b e a n e e d f o r th e
head of Hawks in the province?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
CHAIRPERSON :

Nobody had ever – nobody had ever suggested that

t h e H a w k s i n th e p r o v i n c e c o u l d b e w i th o u t a h e a d ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
I t h i n k o n e o t h e r t h i n g s h e a l s o m e n t i o n e d i f my m e m o r y s e r v e s m e
c o r r e c t ly is th a t t h e tr u s t r e la t io n s h i p b e t w e e n m y s e l f a n d t h e p r o v i n c ia l
c o m m i s s io n e r h a d b r o k e n d o w n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s i n h e r l e t te r ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOO YSEN : That was part of that
le t t e r.
10

CHAIRPERSON : That was part of that letter?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e – d i d s h e e v e r fi le a n y a ff i d a v i t in r e s p o n s e
t o y o u r u r g e n t a p p lic a ti o n e it h e r b e fo r e t h e i n t e r d ic t w a s g r a n t e d o r
la t e r. I a s s u m e i t w a s a t e m p o r a r y i n te r d ic t y o u g o t ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir t h e p r o b l e m t h a t
s h e h a d is s h e h a d n o l o c u s s t a n d i b e c a u s e o f th e G l e n i s te r j u d g m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : A n d i t is o n t h a t b a s is
t h a t I m a n a g e d t o g e t t h e i n te r d ic t .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e i n t e r d ic t j a .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BO OYSEN :

That she had no

a u t h o r i ty o v e r m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : P a r t t o d is m is s y o u .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

General Dramat had.

A n d I t h i n k s h e r e a li s e d th a t w h e n s h e s a w m y p a p e r s .

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOO YSEN :

And that they never

opposed it.
A D V O C AT E

VERUSHKA

SEPTEMBER :

General

Booysen

please

e x p l a i n m u c h m e n t io n is m a d e o f t h e g r o u n d c o v e r a g e d o c u m e n t w h ic h
s u r f a c e d fr o m c r i m e i n te ll i g e n c e .

P le a s e e x p l a i n t h e p u r p o s e o f th a t

d o c u m e n t i n c o n te x t o f t h e e v i d e n c e y o u p r e s e n t t o d a y ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :
coverage
10

document

is

a

document

in t e l li g e n c e in K w a Z u l u N a t a l .

that

C h a ir t h e g r o u n d

emanated

fr o m

crime

W h e n t h e C a t o M a n o r i n v e s ti g a ti o n

s t a r t e d a n d w e h a d th is – th is fo c u s o n C a to M a n o r I o n e d a y w e n t t o
Mr Bheki Cele because I could not understand what was going on and I
s a i d t o h i m , d o e s – c a n h e p e r h a p s e x p la in t o m e w h y i s th e r e t h i s
u r g e n c y t o g e t r i d o f u s ? H e t h e n e x p l a in e d to m e t h a t t w o th in g s . O n e
is w h e n i t c a m e t o m y a p p o in t m e n t h e h a d a …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y w h o w e r e y o u a s k in g n o w B h e k i C e l e ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

Mr Bheki Cele the

c u r r e n t M i n is te r o f P o l ic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a t t h a t t i m e w h a t p o s it io n w a s h e h o ld i n g ?
20

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

C h a ir I t h in k – I

cannot recall whether he had..
C H A I R P E R S O N : N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s io n e r.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o I t h i n k – n o I th i n k
b y th e n h e w a s a ls o h i ms e lf s u s p e n d e d a n d h a d l e f t .
CHAIRPERSON : Oh.

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I c a n n o t r e c a ll e x a c tl y
w h e n th a t w a s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, o k a y s o y o u s a y y o u a s k e d h i m w h y s o m e o f
y o u w e r e b e in g p u s h e d o u t?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

A n d h e – t h a t is

c o r r e c t C h a ir a n d h e m e n ti o n e d tw o t h i n g s to m e .

H e s a id m y

a p p o i n t m e n t th e t h e n M i n is t e r o f P o l ic e w a s n o t h a p p y w i th N a t h i
M t h e th w e I d o n o t k n o w w h y.

H e p r e f e r r e d s o m e o n e e ls e fr o m t h e

E a s t e r n C a p e . B u t in t h e e n d M r C e l e w a s th e n a ti o n a l c o m m is s i o n e r
10

a t t h e ti m e it a p p e a r s th a t h e m a n a g e d to c o n v i n c e t h e M i n i s te r t h a t I
s h o u l d b e a p p o i n t e d . T h e s e c o n d t h i n g i s h e s a i d t h a t h e h a d a v is i t
fr o m w h il e h e w a s t h e n a ti o n a l c o m m is s i o n e r a v is i t fr o m R i c h a r d N d lu li
w h o r e q u e s t e d h i m t o s to p t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n a g a i n s t N d l u l i a n d h e
r e fu s e d .

T h e n e x t t h in g a d o c u m e n t c o m e s fr o m c r i m e i n t e l li g e n c e i n

K w a Z u l u N a ta l i t is c o m m o n ly k n o w n a s t h e g r o u n d c o v e r a g e d o c u m e n t .
T h i s d o c u m e n t C h a ir is a – i t is a v e r y c o n v o l u t e d a s s e m b ly o f
in f o r m a ti o n a n d d is i n f o r m a t i o n a n d c o n j e c t u r e m i x e d w i t h f a c ts b u t
s o m e o f t h e i m p o r t a n t a l l e g a ti o n s in t h is d o c u m e n t s ta t e s t h a t Mr B h e k i
C e l e a n d a n u m b e r o f s e n i o r p o l it ic ia n s h a d m e t I t h in k i t w a s in G r e y
20

To w n w h e r e t h e y d is c u s s e d h o w t h e y w e r e g o in g t o u n s e a t t h e t h e n
P r e s i d e n t M r J a c o b Zu m a . A lo t o f t h e is s u e s I – m y n a m e i s a l s o i n
t h a t r e p o r t i n t h a t M r B h e k i C e l e o w n s t a x ie s i n t h e S t a n g e r a r e a a n d
t h a t h e g e ts B o o y s e n w h o t h e n g e ts th e C a to M a n o r p e o p l e t o t a k e o u t
h is o p p o n e n ts a n d t h i s is w h y I b e c a m e a g e n e r a l.

That story

e v e n t u a l ly a ls o a p p e a r e d i n t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s . I t h i n k i t w a s – S A P S

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
d is a v o w e d a n y in f o r m a t io n p e r t a i n i n g t o S A P S in t h a t d o c k e t .
p o li t ic i a n s

lik e

–

I

stand

to

be

corrected

–

I

th i n k

S e n io r
it

was

M r To k y o S e x w a l e a t t h e ti m e m a d e c o m m e n t s a b o u t t h e d o c u m e n t a n d
h e a c t u a ll y s a id t h a t th e e l e p h a n t i n t h e r o o m w a s M d l u li .

T h is

d o c u m e n t a n d w h y I k n o w i t c o m e s fr o m a s p e c i f ic i n d iv id u a l C h a ir – I
c a n e x p l a i n la t e r if i t i s n e c e s s a r y – b u t i t d e f in i te ly c a m e f r o m
K w a Z u l u - N a t a l . I t w a s t h e n g iv e n t o R i c h a r d M d l u l i a n d h e w a s s ti ll –
s t il l i n o ff ic e b e c a u s e h e d e c la s s if i e d i t.

He then took that document

a n d s e n t it t o t h e t h e n P r e s i d e n t M r J a c o b Zu m a b a s i c a ll y t e l li n g –
10

s h o w i n g h i m w h a t th e s e p e o p l e a r e b u s y w i t h a n d I t h i n k it i s
r o u n d a b o u t j u s t a f te r th a t w h e r e h e a ls o w r o te a l e tt e r t o t h e P r e s id e n t
w h e r e h e s a i d th a t s h o u ld h e r e tu r n t o w o r k t h a t h e w o u l d a s s is t t h e
President.
CHAIRPERSON :

S o t h is w o u l d – I r e m e m b e r t h a t y o u s a i d th a t th a t

le t t e r w o u l d h a v e h a p p e n e d i n 2 0 11 o r t h e r e a b o u t – th e l e t te r ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e – t h is d o c u m e n t th a t y o u h a v e j u s t s p o k e n a b o u t
w h e n d id i t c ir c u l a t e o r w h e n d i d i t e m e r g e ?

Wa s i t r o u n d a b o u t t h e

s a m e ti m e ?
20

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a ir I t h i n k i t w a s

roundabout 2010 roundabout there.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. S o i t w a s b e fo r e th e l e t te r ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

It was

before

le t t e r C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e t h e le t t e r, y e s . O k a y, a lr ig h t th a n k y o u .

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th e

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th e r e a r e c e r t a i n o b s e r v a ti o n s t h a t

y o u h a v e m a d e i n r e l a ti o n t o s e q u e n c e o f e v e n ts w h ic h t a k e s
c o g n is a n c e o f t h is p a r t ic u l a r r e p o r t a n d y o u d o s o a t p a r a g r a p h 1 9 1
p a g e 5 6 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t .

C a n I a s k y o u t o r e a d th e s e o b s e r v a t i o n s

in t o t h e r e c o r d p l e a s e ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Thank

you

C h a ir.

Paragraph 191 of my statement. I say:
“ My

o b s e r v a ti o n s

of

the

sequence

d e p ic te d b e l o w a r e c o n s p ic u o u s .

of

events

Num ber one,

M t h e th w a – h e r e g u la r ly a p p o i n ts M d l u l i a s C I

10

H e a d .”
A n d t h e r e a s o n w h y I s a y t h a t C h a ir t h e t h e n M in is t e r o f P o li c e
appointed

Mdluli

as

a

CI

Head

and

at

the

ti m e

th e

N a ti o n a l

C o m m i s s i o n e r a t t h e ti m e – Ti m W il li a m s – r e g a r d e d h i s a p p o i n t m e n t a s
ir r e g u l a r. T h e y d id n o t f o l l o w p r o c e d u r e a n d a l s o D r J o h a n B u r g e r fr o m
t h e I n s t i tu t e f o r S e c u r i ty S t u d ie s a ls o c o m m e n t e d a t th e t i m e t h e
a p p o i n t m e n t a p p e a r s t o b e a p o l i tic a l a p p o in t m e n t .
“ Af t e r h is a p p o i n t m e n t M d l u l i s ta r t s t o a ll e g e d ly l o o t
the
20

Secret

S e r v ic e s

Account.

One

of

the

b e n e fa c t o r s o f t h e l o o t i n g o f t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e s
A c c o u n t i s M r M t h e th w a h i ms e lf .”
A n d I h a v e te s t i fi e d a b o u t t h e b u i ld in g o f th e fe n c e a r o u n d h is – h is
p r e m is e s C h a ir.
“ Su b s e q u e n tly

Major-General Mark Hankel

t h e w h i s tl e o n t h e l o o t in g o f t h is f u n d .

Page 128 of 170

b lo w s

Th e n a n

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
in v e s t i g a t io n i n to t h e lo o ti n g o f th e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s
Account commences.
the

i n v e s t ig a ti o n

T h e n t h e r e is a K Z N l e g o f
w h ic h

B r i g a d ie r S i m o n M a d o n s e la .
a s s is t a n c e

in

th e

is

conducted

by

M a d o n s e la e l ic i t s m y

in v e s ti g a t io n

a f te r

Crime

I n t e lli g e n c e r e fu s e t o r e le a s e d o c u m e n t s r e q u ir e d
to

f in a l is e

the

i n v e s ti g a ti o n .

Mdluli

e a r l ie r

requested Cele…”
T h a t is n o w M in is t e r B h e k i C e l e .
“ … to s to p t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n i n it i a t e d b y D r a m a t a n d

10

S i b iy a .

Mr Cele

refuses.

Th e n

coverage document surfaces.

the

ground

M r C e le i s th e n

suspended as the National Commissioner for an
u n r e la t e d m a tt e r.”
T h a t w a s t h e R o u x S h a b a n g u m a t t e r C h a i r w h i c h y o u w o u l d r e c a ll a n d
then:
“ T h e S u n d a y Ti m e s a r t ic le p e r ta i n i n g t o t h e C a to
M a n o r i s s u e w h i c h c o n ta i n s t h e s a m e a ll e g a ti o n s
w h ic h a r e i n th e g r o u n d c o v e r a g e d o c u m e n t is
20

e s t a b li s h e d . ”
C h a ir i f I c o u ld p e r h a p s j u s t s t o p t h e r e q u i c k ly.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : D i d y o u m e a n t o s a y p u b lis h e d ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s . S o – b u t I w o u l d
ju s t li k e to s a y t h e r e C h a ir t h i s g r o u n d c o v e r a g e d o c u m e n t I k n o w i t
c o m e s fr o m a c e r t a i n i n d i v i d u a l w i th in C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e . A p e r s o n b y

Page 129 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
t h e n a m e o f C o l o n e l N H S in g h . T h e r e a s o n w h y I k n o w t h a t i s w h e n I
t o o k th e S u n d a y Ti m e s t o th e – t o t h e P r e s s O m b u d s m a n w e
c o m m u n ic a te d t o a n d fr o a b o u t m y c o m p l a i n ts a n d t h e y w o u l d r e s p o n d
a n d in o n e o f th e i r l e tt e r s t o t h e P r e s s O m b u d s m a n a t t h e t i m e t h e y
m e n ti o n e d t h a t o n e o f t h e ir s o u r c e s w a s C o l o n e l N H Si n g h w h o h a d
g iv e n

th e m

the

General Deena Moodley

i n fo r m a t i o n
was

the

but

Head

of

more
Crime

i m p o r t a n tly
I n t e l li g e n c e

in

K w a Z u l u - N a t a l to ld m e p e r s o n a ll y th a t N H Si n g h w a s r e s p o n s i b l e f o r
t h e c o m p i la t io n o f t h a t d o c u m e n t w h i le h e w a s s e c o n d e d o n d u t y to
10

w o r k w i th R i c h a r d M d l u li i n G a u t e n g fo r a p e r i o d o f t i m e . I th in k i t w a s
1 8 m o n t h s a n d th e n :
“ Af t e r th e S u n d a y Ti m e s a r ti c l e a t t e m p ts t o s u s p e n d
m e a r e m a d e I o b t a in e d th e i n t e r d ic t a n d t h e n w h a t
h a p p e n e d a f t e r w a r d s h a d it r e v e r s e d .
A n d th e n t h e m e e t in g w h ic h I t e s ti f ie d a b o u t y e s t e r d a y C h a ir w h e r e
M r M t h e t h w a m e e t t h e p r o s e c u t o r s e s s e n ti a l ly d e m a n d i n g o u r a r r e s t .
“ T h a t is a c c o r d in g to t h e h a n d w r i tt e n m i n u te s o f a
m e e ti n g

which

Anthony Mosing

d e t a il e d

on

8 M a r c h 2 0 1 2 a n d t h e n f lo w in g fr o m t h a t is t h e
20

in t e r v ie w K a r i m a B r o w n h a d w i t h th e M i n i s t e r w h ic h
h e a d m i t t e d th a t h e h a d a m e e ti n g w it h p r o s e c u to r s
a l t h o u g h h e tr i e d to j u s ti fy t h e m e e t in g a n d t h e n
Cato

Manor

racketeering.

d e t e c ti v e s

are

arrested

for

Tw o m o n th s l a te r I w a s a r r e s t e d f o r

m a n a g in g a s o c a l l e d c r i m i n a l e n te r p r is e a n d t h e n

Page 130 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
M d lu li

is

u l ti m a t e l y

suspended

pending

c o r r u p ti o n a n d m u r d e r i n v e s ti g a ti o n s .

the

When he

a tt e m p ts to r e t u r n t o o ffi c e Fr e e d o m U n d e r L a w
fi le s a n a p p li c a t io n in t h e H i g h C o u r t to p r e v e n t h i m
fr o m d o i n g s o .”
And then what I say:
“ An d i n e x tr a o r d i n a r y d e v e lo p m e n t th e N a t io n a l
Commissioner

–

R iy a h Pi y e g a

–

then

f il e s

an

a ffi d a v i t a s s is ti n g h i m t o g o b a c k t o t h e o ff ic e .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir a c o p y o f th a t j u d g m e n t is

f o u n d i n A n n e x u r e J ( B) .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o r r y A n n e x u r e Z( B ) fr o m p a g e s 3 5 4
to 441.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja. Thank you.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I f I c a n n o w a s k y o u t o t u r n to p a g e
6 0 p le a s e ? C a n y o u p l e a s e – y o u m a k e c e r t a i n s t a te m e n ts i n r e l a ti o n
t o R i y a h P iy e g a a n d R i c h a r d M d l u li .

C a n y o u p l e a s e c la r i fy th e

r e l a ti o n s h i p a s y o u u n d e r s t o o d i t t o b e o r u n d e r s t a n d i t t o b e b e t w e e n
20

t h o s e t w o in d iv i d u a ls ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a ir o t h e r t h a n m y

o b s e r v a t i o n s th a t s h e w a s h e l l b e n t o n g e t ti n g r i d o f m e i n s p it e o f m e
b e i n g e x o n e r a te d o n m o r e t h a n o n e o c c a s i o n y e t o n th e o t h e r h a n d
s o m e o n e t h a t f a c e s s e r io u s c h a r g e s s h e t r ie s t o – w e ll – n o t tr y to g e t
h i m b a c k to w o r k b u t s h e – lik e J u d g e M u r p h y s a i d s h e d id n o t w a n t t o

Page 131 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
s t a n d i n h is w a y t o c o m e b a c k t o w o r k . T h a t t o m e ju s t d i d n o t m a k e
sense.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I f o n e w e r e t o lo o k a t p a r a g r a p h 2 0 1
you

talk

s p e c i fic a l ly

Advocate Nomgcobo Jiba.

to

R iy a h P i y e g a ’s

r e l a ti o n s h i p

w i th

I s t h e r e a n y a d d i ti o n a l c o m m e n t s t h a t y o u

w i s h t o m a k e t o th a t ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a ir w h a t h a p p e n e d

there

a

is

subsequent

Advocate Jiba
10

and

to

myself

having

la id

the

matter

was

being

complaint against
i n v e s ti g a te d

by

a

L i e u t e n a n t - C o l o n e l B o th a . H e h a d in v e s t i g a te d t h e m a t t e r a n d o b t a i n e d
a l l t h e n e c e s s a r y s t a t e m e n ts I a s s u m e a n d t h e n t h e n e x t th i n g I h e a r d
o n t h e n e w s t h a t t h e y w a n t e d to s e r v e a s u b p o e n a o r a s u m m o n s o n
A d v o c a t e J i b a t o a p p e a r in c o u r t o n c h a r g e s a n d t h a t s h e w a s n o t
a v a i la b le a t th e o ffi c e .

I t w a s i n th e m e d i a a t th e ti m e a n d th e n

e v e n t u a l ly th e m e d ia r e p o r te d t h a t t h e y h a d s e r v e d a s u m m o n s o n
M r N x a s a n a t o g iv e t o h e r b e c a u s e s h e r e p o r t e d t o h i m a n d t h e n t h a t
s a m e e v e n in g I o v e r h e a r d – w e ll I h e a r d a r a d i o s ta t e m e n t o f
M r N x a s a n a w h o t o o k is s u e w it h G e n e r a l P iy e g a f o r th e r o le s h e p l a y e d
b e c a u s e th e r e a p p e a r s t o h a v e b e e n a s p a t b e t w e e n P i y e g a a n d
20

N x a s a n a a n d i t w a s e v id e n t fr o m t h e n e w s r e p o r t s a n d fr o m t h e r a d i o
in t e r v ie w s t h a t th e r e w a s c o n fl ic t b e t w e e n t h e N D P P a n d t h e N a ti o n a l
C o m m i s s i o n e r o f t h e P o lic e . I n m y v ie w t h e N a t io n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r o f
t h e P o lic e s h o u l d n o t h a v e i n v o l v e d h e r w i t h d e c is i o n s t a k e n b y t h e
N D P P s O ff ic e w h ic h s h e c le a r ly d i d . S h e w a s s o i n c e n s e d b y t h e f a c t
t h a t A d v o c a te J i b a e v e n tu a l ly r e c e iv e d t h e s u m m o n s t h a t s h e s u m m a r ily

Page 132 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
t e r m in a t e d t h e s e r v ic e s o f C o l o n e l B o th a . C o l o n e l B o th a h a d b e e n o n
a n e x te n d e d c o n tr a c t .

H e w a s o n e o f th e i n v e s ti g a ti n g o ffic e r s i n t h e

O s c a r P i s to r i u s m a tt e r b u t s h e s u m m a r il y te r m i n a te d h is c o n t r a c t a n d
t h e n G e n e r a l M u n o w h o w a s t h e n t h e D iv i s io n a l H e a d o f t h e D e te c t iv e s
a s s ig n e d

th a t

document

to

–

I

think

–

it

was

a

M a jo r - G e n e r a l ( i n d is ti n c t) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s e e t h a t i n p a r a g r a p h 1 9 6 y o u s a y th a t :
“It

emerged

Mr Mdluli

in

had

your

d is c ip li n a r y

i n te r f e r e d

with

h e a r in g
the

th a t

Pa n d a y

in v e s t i g a t io n a s w e ll .”

10

A n d y o u r e f e r t o M a jo r G e n e r a l L a z a r u s .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a ir

when

my

d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r in g w a s o n g o i n g w h e n th e y c l o s e d th e c a s e a g a in s t m e
it w a s n o w m y t u r n t o g i v e e v i d e n c e . I h a d a p p r o a c h e d a n u m b e r o f t h e
in v e s t i g a t o r s fr o m t h e H a w k s t o c o m e a n d g iv e e v id e n c e o n m y b e h a l f
a n d m o s t o f t h e m u n d e r t o o k t o d o s o b u t e v e r y ti m e I w o u l d p h o n e th e m
a d a y o r t w o b e fo r e th e ti m e t h e y d i s a p p e a r e d . I c o u l d n o t g e t h o l d o f
20

them.

My a t t o r n e y e v e n t u a l ly m a n a g e d t o g e t h o ld o f th e m a n d th e y

w e r e g iv e n i n s tr u c ti o n .

T h e y s a i d t h e y i n s tr u c ti o n c a m e fr o m P i y e g a

t h a t th e y c a n n o t c o m e a n d te s t i fy i n m y f a v o u r.

At that time

S o o b r a m o n e y – C h a ir w o u l d r e c a ll - w h o w a s o n e o f t h e in v e s t i g a t o r s i n
t h e b e g in n in g w h o m I h a d to in v e s ti g a t e w h o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e P a n d a y m a t te r ?

Page 133 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : H e h a d t o l d m e a t th e
ti m e t h a t h e h a d r e s ig n e d b u t I h a d f o u n d o u t in t h e m e a n ti m e t h a t h e
h a d n o t r e s i g n e d . T h a t h e w a s w o r k i n g a t C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e in B e n o n i.
I th e n m a n a g e d to tr a c e h i m a n d I a s k e d h i m Va s s a n a r e y o u p r e p a r e d
t o c o m e a n d te s ti fy f o r m e a n d h e s a id y e s I w il l . I d i d n o t t e l l a n y o n e
that he was coming.

W e w e r e – t h e h e a r i n g a t th a t s t a g e w a s i n

chambers here in Sandton.
10

S o I s a i d to h i m I w i ll p ic k h i m u p a t th e

G a u t r a in S t a ti o n w h ic h I d i d t h e m o r n in g . I to o k h i m in . I t w a s a t t h a t
s t a g e w h e r e th e y w a n t e d G e n e r a l N g o b e n i to c o m e a n d t e s ti fy a n d I
k n e w s h e w o u l d n o t c o m e a n d th e n s a i d n o t h e y a r e g o in g to a d j o u r n
n o w b e c a u s e s h e d i d n o t a r r iv e .

I s a id n o I d o h a v e a w i t n e s s h e r e .

We can proceed with this witness. Chair I was – I was unaware of what
h e w a s g o in g to t e s ti f y a b o u t b u t I w a s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is N g o b e n i ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

No

this

was

Va s s a n S o o b r a m o n e y.
CHAIRPERSON : Oh.
20

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Ngobeni

never

p i tc h e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
c o n fir m .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.

Page 134 of 170

I just wanted him to

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : T h e is s u e s a r o u n d th e
in v e s t i g a t io n b u t w h il e h e w a s g iv i n g e v id e n c e – a n d t h a t w a s t h e fir s t
ti m e I h e a r d a b o u t i t – h e s a id t h a t i n th e i n i ti a l s t a g e s o f t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n h e w a s a p p r o a c h e d b y R i c h a r d M d l u li a n d S o ll y L a z a r u s –
a ls o a M a j o r - G e n e r a l fr o m th e H a w k s w h o h a s n o w b e e n d i s mi s s e d - I
t h i n k – a ls o is s u e s r e l a ti n g t o t h e s l a s h f u n d . Th e y w e r e a p p r o a c h e d –
t h e y a p p r o a c h e d h i m i n B a l li t o w h e r e t h e y t o l d h i m t h a t t h e y h a v e g o t
in f o r m a ti o n th a t h i s l i fe is u n d e r t h r e a t a n d t h e y p r o p o s e d t o h i m i t i s
b e t t e r i f h e c o m e s to G a u te n g a n d c o m e s – i f h e g o e s - c o m e s to C r i m e
10

I n t e lli g e n c e
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is S o o b r a m o n e y ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : S o o b r a m o n e y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

And

th e y

a ls o

in d i c a t e d t o h i m t h a t t h e r e i s a p o s s i b i li ty t h a t h e m i g h t b e p r o m o t e d i f
h e c o m e s . I – t h i s w a s n o t r e p o r te d to m e . T h a t w a s n o w t h e fi r s t t i m e
I h e a r d a b o u t t h is . H e t h e n s a i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h e d is c i p li n a r y h e a r i n g ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
20

At the

d i s c i p li n a r y

h e a r in g C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : He says - that is what
Soobramoney told me.

H e th e n – b e c a u s e h e fe a r e d f o r h i s li f e –

b e c a u s e h e h a s g o t a w i f e a n d a k id I th i n k – h e d e c id e d t o t a k e u p th is
p o s i ti o n w i t h C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e a n d b e k n o w n a n d h e s a i d to m e h e s a t

Page 135 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
in t h e o ffi c e d o i n g n o th i n g . H e t o l d t h e m a t t h e t i m e t h a t h e n e e d e d t o
c o n ti n u e w i t h th e – w i th t h e P a n d a y in v e s ti g a ti o n . H e s a i d b u t h e w a s
b a s ic a lly j u s t le f t t h e r e i n th e o f fi c e t o s u c h a n e x t e n t h e w a s g e t t in g s o
b o r e d h e p le a d e d w i th th e n t o g iv e h i m s o m e t h i n g t o d o e v e n if i t i s
s o m e H R w o r k . S o t h e h a n d o f M d l u li is c le a r i n t o t h e i n te r f e r e n c e o f
t h e in v e s t i g a t io n o f P a n d a y.
CHAIRPERSON :

S o a t th e ti m e t h a t S o o b r a m o n e y w a s – a t t h e t i m e

t h a t h e m o v e d fr o m K Z N t o B e n o n i w a s h e s ti ll i n v o l v e d i n th e P a n d a y
in v e s t i g a t io n ?
10

M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e c o n ti n u i n g w it h i t ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : C h a ir h e t o l d m e h e is
going to resign.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , h e to ld y o u h e h a d r e s ig n e d ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o o b v i o u s ly – a n d y o u s a y b u t h e h a d n o t r e s i g n e d ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I – I.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e h a d r e s ig n e d fr o m t h e H a w k s m a y b e ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o C h a i r b u t – i n it i a l ly

20

h e t o l d m e th a t h e h a d r e s i g n e d b u t la t e r o n o b v i o u s ly th r o u g h y o u r
c o n ta c t s in th e p o lic e I e s t a b lis h e d t h a t h e w a s w o r k i n g a t C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e i n B e n o n i .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

O k a y.

S o – s o w h e n h e m o v e d fr o m K Z N to

B e n o n i h e w a s s t il l i n v o l v e d i n th e P a n d a y in v e s t i g a t io n ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Page 136 of 170

U p u n t il th e d a y h e

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
le f t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : U p u n t il j a .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d t h e n w h e n h e l e ft o n c e h e w a s i n C r i m e

I n t e lli g e n c e t h e n o b v i o u s ly h e w a s g o i n g t o b e d o in g s o m e t h i n g e ls e ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Ye s , b u t t h e n h e d i d

n o t h i n g C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON :

T h e n h e – h e s a y h e d i d n o th in g a n d w o u ld th e r e

h a v e b e e n o th e r p e o p l e w h o w o u l d h a v e c o n ti n u e d w i th th e P a n d a y
in v e s t i g a t io n i n h is a b s e n c e ? D o y o u k n o w ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

W e ll C h a ir t h e r e –

t h e r e w e r e a c o u p le o f i n v e s ti g a t o r s . C o l o n e l H a n s Va n L o g g e n b e r g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

And

there

was

Colonel Hurst.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
20

Most of them were

p e o p l e fr o m th e e x - S c o r p i o n s D S O .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Even

Soobramoney

w a s a ls o f r o m t h e D S O .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t th e t i m e t h a t S o o b r a m o n e y g a v e e v i d e n c e i n y o u r
d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r in g h o w l o n g h a d h e b e e n in B e n o n i ? D o y o u – d o y o u

Page 137 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
h a v e s o m e id e a ? I a m j u s t tr y in g t o u n d e r s t a n d t o t h e e x te n t t h a t t h is
m a y h a v e d is t u r b e d th e P a n d a y in v e s ti g a t i o n . H o w l o n g d id it ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a ir I w o u ld s a y

p r o b a b ly a b o u t tw o y e a r s .
CHAIRPERSON :

About two years.

D i d t h a t c o i n c i d e w i t h th e ti m e

when you were on suspension or part of the time?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

It c o i n c i d e d w i th a

p e r i o d o f my s u s p e n s io n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y a n d d i d y o u g e t to k n o w fo r h o w l o n g h e
10

w a s s i t t in g th e r e d o in g n o t h i n g i n B e n o n i – o f t h e t w o y e a r s ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : W e l l C h a ir h e t o l d m e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Soobramoney himself

t o l d m e a f t e r h e h a d g iv e n e v i d e n c e th a t h e s a t t h e r e d o in g n o th i n g a n d
h e a c t u a l ly p l e a d e d w i th t h e m t o g iv e h i m s o m e t h in g t o d o .

He was

g e t t in g b o r e d .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

H e e v e n s a id t h a t –

h e a s k e d th e m g iv e m e s o m e H R w o r k t o d o .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . S o w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g th a t h e w a s ta lk i n g
a b o u t th a t e n ti r e p e r i o d s in c e h e h a d l e f t K Z N t h a t h e w a s s i t ti n g th e r e
d o i n g n o th in g ?

S o i f t h a t p e r i o d w a s tw o y e a r s t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n

two years of doing nothing.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
h e t o l d m e C h a ir.

Page 138 of 170

T h a t is e x a c t ly w h a t

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : G e n e r a l B o o y s e n d o y o u c o n f ir m t h a t
t h e r e a r e i n f a c t t w o a ffi d a v it s th a t h a v e b e e n a t ta c h e d to y o u r a ff id a v i t
fr o m C o l o n e l B r i a n P a d a y a c h e e ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I d o C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d d o y o u a l s o c o n f ir m th a t i t w a s

C o l o n e l B r i a n P a d a y a c h e e w h o m a n a g e d t h e i n t e ll ig e n c e i n r e l a ti o n to
t h e P a n d a y i n v e s ti g a t i o n ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I c o n fir m t h a t C h a ir.
10

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : D i d R iy a h P iy e g a g e t in v o lv e d i n t h e
u p li f t m e n t o f c o m m u n ic a ti o n r e c o r d in g s a t a l l?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

S h e d i d C h a ir.

What

h a p p e n e d is P a d a y a c h e e w h o m – w h o w a s i n c h a r g e o f th e m o n i t o r in g
o f th e A c t 1 7 i n t e r c e p t i o n s a t o n e s ta g e a ls o r e p o r t e d t o R iy a h P iy e g a
is s u e s r e l a t i n g to t h e in v e s t i g a t io n a n d I th i n k t h a t is p e r h a p s
s o m e t h i n g t h a t h e c a n t a lk a b o u t b u t f o r – fo r h i s e ff o r t h e a l s o g o t
s u s p e n d e d a n d t h e n a w h i l e l a t e r h e i n f o r me d m e t h a t – C h a ir h o w i t
w o r k s is th e in t e r c e p ti o n s a r e d o n e a t a s p e c i fi c p l a c e i n Pr e t o r i a . T h e
in v e s t i g a t o r s w o u ld s i t in t h e ir r e s p e c t iv e p r o v in c e s .
20

I t is n o t l iv e

lis t e n i n g . S o t h e y r e c o r d a n d t h e n th e y w i ll s e n d i t t o t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s
b u t t h e o r ig i n a ls a r e k e p t i n – i n Pr e t o r i a .

T h e n a t o n e s ta g e

P a d a y a c h e e i n fo r m e d m e t h a t G e n e r a l P iy e g a h a s s e n t a B r i g a d ie r – I
c a n n o t r e c a ll t h e n a m e – I t h i n k it w a s a W h i te l a d y.

I s t a n d to b e

c o r r e c t e d – t o u p li f t t h e in t e r c e p te d c a ll s – t h e a c tu a l d is c s b u t C h a ir i f
it i s i n d e e d tr u e a n d s h e d id n o t f o l lo w d u e p r o c e s s i n m y v ie w th a t is –

Page 139 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
s h e c o m m i t t e d a c r i m i n a l o ff e n c e .

S h e m i g h t h a v e fo ll o w e d d u e

p r o c e s s b u t I a m n o t a w a r e th a t s h e h a d f o ll o w e d p r o p e r p r o t o c o l a n d
process.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir f o r t h e r e c o r d I fa il e d t o

m e n ti o n t h a t t h e a ffi d a v i ts o f C o lo n e l P a d a y a c h e e is r e f le c t e d a t
E X H I B I T Z ( B ) w h i c h i s J ( B ) 2 6 p a g e 4 7 2 u n til 4 9 8 . A t p a r a g r a p h 2 0 7 o f
y o u r a ff id a v i t d o y o u c o n fir m t h a t R iy a h P i y e g a w a s a ls o t h e s u b je c t o f
a

c r i m in a l

i n v e s ti g a t i o n

when

she

a le r t e d

Lieutenant-General Arno Lamoer?
10

M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I c o n fir m t h a t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h a t w a s a n a le r t o f a c r i m i n a l

in v e s t i g a t io n a g a i n s t h i m ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a t i s tr u e C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : B u t t h i s – b u t i t d i d n o t r e s u lt i n a n y
p r o s e c u t i o n s t e p s b e in g t a k e n ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : N o C h a ir, i t d i d n o t .
CHAIRPERSON :

I may have missed this.

Did you cover – did you

c o v e r t h a t i s s u e a b o u t M a j o r – G e n e r a l N t o m b e l a a t 1 9 9 a n d H a n k e l?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
20

C h a ir w i t h r e g a r d s t o

General Ntombela.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

W h i le

they

were

h a v i n g t h e d is c i p l in a r y h e a r i n g a g a i n s t m e h e p h o n e d m e a n d w e m e t
a n d h e t o l d m e th a t h e w a s t h e f ir s t p e r s o n t h a t w a s g iv e n t h e t a s k t o
in v e s t i g a t e m e .

Page 140 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t w a s h is p o s i ti o n – N to m b e la ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a ir

he

P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s i o n e r e it h e r in L i m p o p o o r M p u m a la n g a .

was

a

I cannot

recall.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

I

think

it

was

M p u m a la n g a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. S o h e p h o n e d y o u a n d s a i d w h a t ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : So I meet him and he
10

s a y s t o m e h e j u s t w a n ts to t e l l m e h e w a s th e fir s t p e r s o n w h o w a s
a l lo c a t e d w i th t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n a g a in s t m e a n d t h a t h e d i d n o t f e e l
c o m f o r t a b l e w i t h i t a n d h e d i d s o m e i n v e s ti g a t io n s – I d o n o t k n o w w h a t
he did but he reported back to

- I th i n k i t w a s a t t h e ti m e

G e n e r a l P i y e g a a n d s h e o b v i o u s l y w a s n o t h a p p y w it h t h a t b u t th e o th e r
i m p o r t a n t t h in g is C h a i r - a n d th a t i s w h a t h e t o l d m e .

P iy e g a a s k e d

N to m b e la to i n v e s t ig a t e t h e c o n d u c t o f G e n e r a l M a r k H a n k e l t h e w h is t le
b l o w e r.

S o h e d id a c o m p l e te i n v e s ti g a ti o n .

W h e n h e fi n a l is e d h is

in v e s t i g a t io n h i s c o n c l u s io n s w e r e t h a t M a r k H a n k e l h a d d o n e n o t h in g
wrong.
20

H e h a d d o n e t h e r i g h t t h i n g a n d h e s a id t o m e P iy e g a w a s

f u r i o u s w i t h h i m . S h e t h e n a l lo c a t e d t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n t o s o m e o n e e ls e
b u t t h e i m p o r t a n t t h in g C h a ir a t th a t p o i n t t h e c o n tr a c ts o f b o t h
General Ntombela and General Ngobeni had come to end.
c le a r r e c o r d – a b s o l u te c l e a r r e c o r d . H e h a d n o c o m p l a i n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is N t o m b e l a ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Ntombela.

Page 141 of 170

He had a

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

H is c o n tr a c t w a s n o t

r e n e w e d w h e r e a s G e n e r a l N g o b e n i h a v i n g a ll th e s e in v e s t i g a t io n s
h a n g i n g o v e r h e r h e a d G e n e r a l P iy e g a r e n e w e d h e r c o n t r a c t .
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d – a n d w h ic h y e a r a r e w e ta lk in g a b o u t a t t h a t

ti m e m o r e o r l e s s – if y o u a r e a b l e to ( in t e r v e n e s ) ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I w o u ld s a y 2 0 1 3 / 2 0 1 4
C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :
10

C e r t a in ly t h a t w a s a ti m e w h e n t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n

against the Provincial Commissioner in KZN – Ngobeni – had started.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN: It was not.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It h a d s t a r t e d a y e a r o r t w o b e fo r e ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a ir i t w a s i n a n

a d v a n c e d s t a g e . I t h i n k i t c o in c i d e s w i t h a le t t e r t h a t A d v o c a t e N o k o - I
a l lu d e d t o th a t y e s te r d a y a n d I a c tu a lly m e n ti o n e d t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

In m y r e s p o n s e t o

N o k o ’s m e m o r a n d u m .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

That

coincidence

at

that

that

report

was

r e le a s e d

I

th e

fi n d
time

it no
that

G e n e r a l N g o b e n i ’s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : Contract had expired.

Page 142 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

I

think

it

was

s o m e w h e r e in 2 0 1 4 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

S o – s o y o u s a y t h e r e w a s – t h e r e w a s a P r o v in c i a l

C o m m i s s i o n e r i n M p u m a la n g a o r w h a t e v e r t h e p r o v i n c e t h a t N t o m b e la
w a s i n w h o a s fa r a s y o u k n o w h a d a c l e a n r e c o r d , h a d n o c o m p l a i n ts
a g a in s t h i m a n d h e h a d b e e n a s k e d t o i n v e s ti g a te y o u a n d h e f o u n d
n o t h i n g a n d r e p o r t e d a c c o r d i n g ly to G e n e r a l P iy e g a . H i s c o n tr a c t w a s
n o t r e n e w e d a n d th e n th e c o n tr a c t o f t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s io n e r in
10

K Z N M a j o r - G e n e r a l N g o b e n i th e r e w a s a n in v e s t i g a t io n p e n d in g a g a i n s t
h e r b u t h e r s w a s r e n e w e d . T h a t is w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

O v e r a n d a b o v e th a t

t h e is s u e t h a t h e w a s in s t r u c t e d to in v e s t i g a te M a r k H a n k e l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th e w h is t le b l o w e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

W h ic h P i y e g a w a s

a ls o – w e l l th e r e s u l t o f w h ic h s h e w a s n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : H a p p y w i th e i t h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h N t o m b e l a m a d e – c o n d u c t e d t h a t i n v e s t ig a ti o n a s
w e ll ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : H e d i d C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : H e to ld m e .

Page 143 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
CHAIRPERSON : And – and found nothing wrong?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

N o th i n g

against

Mark Hankel.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s a n d t h e n G e n e r a l P iy e g a w a s v e r y a n g r y a b o u t

that?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : He said she was very
a n g r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. If w e c a n n o w tu r n
10

to page 62 of your report?

T h e n e x t i n d iv i d u a l w h o y o u r e fe r t o is

M a jo r - G e n e r a l J a n M a b u la . Yo u r c o n c e r n s i n r e la t io n t o t h is p a r t ic u l a r
in d i v i d u a l i s m e n ti o n e d in t h e c o n te x t o f t h r e e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s . T h e fir s t
is o n e w h i c h r e l a t e s t o t h e fo r m e r P o li c e C o m m i s s i o n e r J a c k ie S e le b i.
T h e o t h e r is a s e v e r a l m u l t i mi ll i o n R a n d i n v e s ti g a ti o n o f e x h i b i t m o n e y
w h ic h w a s r e c o v e r e d a f te r a h e is t a t O R T I n te r n a ti o n a l Ai r p o r t w i t h w h ic h w a s s to l e n f r o m t h e B e n o n i P o lic e S t a ti o n a n d th e l a s t is in
r e l a ti o n t o th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n o f t h e C a t o M a n o r D e a th S q u a d .

It is i n

t h a t c o n t e x t t h a t y o u p la c e e v i d e n c e b e f o r e t h is C o m m i s s io n e r ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
20

It is in that context

C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C a n y o u p l e a s e g i v e d e ta il t o y o u r

e v i d e n c e r e la t in g t o M a b u l a i n t h e c o n te x t o f t h o s e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a ir M a j o r - G e n e r a l

J a n – I t h in k i t is N te b o – M a b u l a b u t w e k n o w h i m a s J a n M a b u l a w a s
m y c o u n t e r p a r t i n t h e N o r th W e s t P r o v i n c e . W h e n t h e – w h e n th e C a t o

Page 144 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
M a n o r m a t te r s ta r t e d G e n e r a l D r a m a t to l d m e th a t h e is a p p o i n t in g
Mabula,

G e n e r a l N ts ik a

and

General Badie

a l le g a ti o n s i n t h e S u n d a y Tr i b u n e .

to

i n v e s t ig a t e

the

N ts i k a n e v e r a r r iv e d a n d B a d i e

n e v e r a r r iv e d . M a b u la a r r iv e d w it h a te a m fr o m t h e N o r th W e s t . O n e o f
t h e m I r e c a ll w a s C o l o n e l M a n o a ls o a v e r y c o n tr o v e r s i a l o ff i c e r w h o
s u b s e q u e n t ly p a s s e d a w a y. I t d i d n o t s t r ik e m e a t t h e t i m e b u t l a t e r o n
I p u t t w o a n d t w o t o g e t h e r. M a b u la – G e n e r a l M a b u la w a s i n c a h o o ts
w i t h A d v o c a te J i b a a t th e t i m e o f t h e a r r e s t o f A d v o c a t e G e r r i e N e l.
W h a t tr a n s p ir e d C h a ir a f te r m y a r r e s t I r e c e iv e d a p h o n e c a l l fr o m a
10

s e n i o r p o l ic e o ffi c e r w h o w a n t e d m e t o m e e t s o m e o n e . S o I h a p p e n e d
t o b e i n Pr e t o r i a a n d w e m e t a t C e n t u r io n a t t h e M c D o n a l d s a n d t h is
p e r s o n r e la t e d t h e f o ll o w i n g s t o r y t o m e C h a ir.

H e s a id t o m e w h a t

M a b u l a i s d o in g t o y o u i s w r o n g b e c a u s e h e is g u i l ty o f s o m e t h i n g l ik e
t h a t h i m s e l f a n d h e r e l a t e d t h e f o l lo w in g s t o r y t o m e .
h u g e h e is t a t th e O R Ta m b o a ir p o r t .
stolen.

There was a

I t h i n k o v e r R 1 0 0 m i ll io n w a s

W h e t h e r i t w a s D o ll a r s o r R a n d I c a n n o t r e c a ll C h a ir a n d

p e o p l e w e r e a r r e s t e d f o r th a t a n d th e m o n i e s w a s r e c o v e r e d a n d k e p t i n
t h e s a fe a t – I t h i n k – B e n o n i O r g a n is e d C r i m e . S o m e o n e b r o k e in t o –
in t o t h e o ff ic e s a n d I t h i n k R 1 2 m i lli o n w a s s t o le n . M a b u la a t th e ti m e
20

w a s a C o l o n e l a n d h e w a s t a s k e d t o l e a d t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n in t o t h e th e f t
o f th e m o n e y.

C h a ir t h e n I s t a r t e d t o d o s o m e r e s e a r c h m y s e lf

a ft e r w a r d s b u t l e t m e c o n t i n u e w i t h t h e s t o r y.

H e s a y s o n e o f th e

p e o p l e w h o t h e y a r r e s te d i s a g u y b y t h e n a m e – I t h i n k S o lly N g w e n y a
– a s u s p e c t in th e m a t te r. H e w a s t a k e n t o t h e M m a k a u P o li c e S t a ti o n
a n d a t t h e M m a k a u P o lic e S t a ti o n th e y w e r e b u s y in t e r r o g a t in g h i m .

Page 145 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
J a n M a b u la w a s i n a n a d j a c e n t o ffi c e . H e w a s n o t p r e s e n t . H e w a s i n
t h e o ffi c e n e x t d o o r a n d h e w a s t h e r e w i t h – I th in k – s h e w a s a
Captain Makwena.

H e s a y s a n d th e y w e r e b u s y in t e r r o g a t in g t h is

s u s p e c t – S o ll y N g w e n y a b u t t h e y w e r e to r t u r i n g h i m . H e w a s p a r t o f i t.
H e t o ld m e a n d h e s a y s h e d e s c r i b e d m e t o . T h e y w o u l d ta k e a t u b e
a n d t h e n p u t i t o v e r h is h e a d u n ti l th e p e r s o n s u ffo c a t e s . A lo n g s t o r y
s h o r t . T h is p e r s o n c o l la p s e d a n d t h e y c o u ld n o t r e v iv e h i m . T h e n t h e y
r e a l is e d th is p e r s o n h a d d i e d . H e s a y s a n d th e n h e w e n t n e x t d o o r o r
t h e y w e n t n e x t d o o r, I c a n ’ t r e c a l l w h e t h e r it w a s h i m o r.. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
10

CHAIRPERSON :

T h a t ’s M a b u l a t e ll in g y o u t h e s to r y o r w h a t ?

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

N o C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w a s te ll in g y o u t h e s t o r y ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

It ’s a g e n t l e m a n , I d o

n o t w a n t to m e n ti o n h is n a m e . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

O h y o u d o n ’ t w a n t to m e n ti o n h i s n a m e o k a y.

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN : But if the Chair would
w a n t m e to I c a n – b u t I th in k f o r h i s o w n s a fe ty. . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

N o th a t ’s fi n e .

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
20

Because

what

h a p p e n e d a ft e r w a r d s C h a ir, p e o p l e w e r e b e i n g k il l e d l e ft , r i g h t a n d
c e n tr e . T h e y t h e n w e n t n e x t d o o r t o t e l l M a b u l a , w e ’v e g o t a p r o b le m
n o w t h is m a n ( i n d is ti n c t) h e d o e s n ’ t w a n t t o w a k e u p . T h e n M a b u la w a s
s i tt i n g o n th e c h a ir h e fe ll d o w n , h e p a s s e d o u t h i m s e l f a n d t h e n o n e o f
t h e c a p t a i n s t h e r e , it w a s a C a p t a i n D u b e , f e m a l e c a p ta in t o o k h e r c o a t
a n d w a v e d h i m t o w a k e u p s o w h e n h e w o k e u p t h e y r e a li s e d t h e y h a d

Page 146 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
a p r o b le m . S o t h e y d e c i d e d t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o t a k e th e b o d y to , I t h i n k
t h e B a r a g w a n a t h H o s p it a l a n d t h e n th e y t o o k h i m t o t h e h o s p i t a l to s a y,
n o t h is m a n h a d a h e a r t a t ta c k . W h e n t h e y a r r i v e d a t t h e h o s p i t a l th e
d o c to r s a i d n o , n o t h is m a n h a s b e e n d e a d f o r a b o u t t w o h o u r s n o w h e
d i d n ’ t h a v e a h e a r t a tt a c k .

Th e y w e n t b a c k a n d r e p o r t e d th is t o

M a b u l a , M a b u la t h e n h a d s o m e a r r a n g e m e n t , h e d i d n ’ t g i v e m e t h o s e
d e t a i ls w i t h a d o c t o r w h o e v e n t u a l ly c e r t if ie d th is p e r s o n d e a d .

Th e

f a m ily a t t h e t i m e a n d th e m e d ia , I o b v i o u s l y la t e r o n s t a r t e d r e a d in g
a b o u t i t , w a s v e r y u n h a p p y th a t th e ir fa m i ly m e m b e r h a d d i e d i n p o li c e
10

c u s t o d y.

T h e n t h e p e o p l e th a t w e r e p r e s e n t, w h e n t h i s p e r s o n d i e d ,

w h e n S o li e d i e d , M a b u la m e t t h e m a t a l a k e , I c a n ’ t r e c a l l – I t h i n k i t
w a s G e r m i s to n l a k e w h e r e h e t o l d t h e m h o w t o fo r m u l a te t h e ir
s t a te m e n ts .

T h e y h a d a f o l lo w - u p m e e ti n g i n w h ic h – a n d t h e y

d e s c r ib e d t o m e th e o n e g u y s a id n o th e y ’r e h a v in g n i g h t m a r e s ,
nightmares. I said to him, what do you mean nightmares, he says no
t h e y w e r e s a y in g t h a t o n e o f t h e p e o p le t h a t w e r e p r e s e n t w h e n S o l i e
d i e d w a s t h a t – t h e y w e r e h a v in g n i g h t m a r e s a t n ig h t , th is m a n w a s
s p o o k i n g b y t h e m a n d t h e n M a b u l a w o u ld s a y t o t h e m , n o d o n ’ t w o r r y
w e ’l l s o r t i t o u t a n d h e to l d t h e m e x a c tl y h o w t o m a k e th e i r s ta t e m e n ts .
20

C h a ir a t t h a t p o i n t I lis t e n e d to w h a t h e s a i d b u t I w a s in t h e
m i d d l e o f t h e fi g h t o f m y li f e w i t h J i b a a n d a l l a n d s u n d r y I d id n ’ t d o
a n y th in g a b o u t i t a t t h e t i m e . S ix m o n t h s l a te r I g e t a c a ll f r o m G e n e r a l
S h a d r a c k Si b iy a , I m i g h t m e n ti o n C h a ir, t h e p e r s o n w h o i n t r o d u c e d m e
t o th is o th e r p e r s o n w a s G e n e r a l S h a d r a c k S i b i y a . H e t h e n s a id t o m e ,
J o h a n d i d y o u r e p o r t t h i s t h i n g t o I C D , I s a i d t o h i m S h a d r a c k , I ’ m to o

Page 147 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
b u s y f i g h t in g my o w n b a t tl e s h e r e I h a v e n ’ t g o t t i m e f o r t h a t , h e s a y s
n o , n o t h e p e r s o n w h o r e l a t e d t h e s t o r y to m e a n d a n o th e r p e r s o n w h o
w a s o ff s ic k , th e y w e r e t h e o n ly t w o p e o p l e t h a t n e v e r m a d e s t a te m e n ts
a t th e t i m e t h a t S o li e N g w e n y a d i e d a n d n o w a ll o f a s u d d e n I C D i s
a p p r o a c h i n g t h e m f o r s t a te m e n ts .

I s a i d t o h i m , S h a d r a c k I c a n g iv e

y o u a n u n d e r t a k in g I d i d n o t c o n t a c t IC D I ’ m t o o b u s y. H e s a i d t o m e ,
c a n th e s e g u y s c o m e a n d s e e y o u , I s a i d b y a l l m e a n s . C h a ir th a t w a s
a b o u t 5 o ’c lo c k i n th e a f t e r n o o n , 7 o ’c l o c k t h e f o l lo w i n g m o r n i n g I
r e c e i v e d a c a ll t h e y ’ r e in D u r b a n , s o i t m u s t h a v e b e e n o f s o m e c o n c e r n
10

t o t h e m b e c a u s e th e y h a d d r iv e n t h r o u g h t h e n i g h t.
I t h e n a s k e d , I t h in k it w a s C o l o n e l – C a p ta in P e ls e r fr o m m y
o ffic e i f h e ’s g o t a r e c o r d i n g d e v ic e f o r m e , I t o o k a r e c o r d in g d e v ic e
w i t h m e a n d I m e t t h e m o n t h e b e a c h fr o n t a n d I h a d a r r a n g e d w i t h a
person that I know at the Sun Coast Casino that we ca n go and sit in
o n e o f t h e r e s t a u r a n t s a n d t a lk . S o t h e y e n q u ir e d fr o m m e , t h e y s a i d t o
m e , i t ’s j u s t s tr a n g e t h a t t h e y w e r e t h e o n ly t w o t h a t n e v e r m a d e
s t a te m e n ts i n t h a t m a t t e r i n w h ic h N g w e n y a d i e d b u t n o w t h e I C D w a n ts
t o s e e t h e m a n d I to ld t h e m t h e r e ’s n o w a y s i t w a s m e t h a t t o l d t h e I C D
a n d t h e n w e tr ie d – I tr ie d t o fi g u r e o u t w h o i t c o u l d h a v e b e e n a n d w e

20

h a d s o m e d is c u s s io n a n d C h a i r t h e n . . .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

I s t h e I C D th e p r e d e c e s s o r t o t h e I P I D ?

M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y.

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

S o C h a ir th e n I s a i d

t o th e m b u t l e t ’s j u s t r e c o u p w h a t h a p p e n e d w h e n S o l i e d i e d a n d t h e n

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
t h e y t o l d m e t h e w h o le s t o r y fr o m th e b e g i n n i n g to t h e e n d e x a c t ly l ik e
h e t o l d m e t h e p r e v i o u s ti m e a n d I t h e n s a id t o t h e m lo o k m y – t h e o n l y
s u g g e s t io n th a t I c a n m a k e t o y o u g u y s , g o to a l a w y e r, m a k e a n
a ffi d a v i t , g o t o t h e Pr o s e c u ti n g A u t h o r i ty a n d l a y y o u r c a r d s o n t h e
t a b le b e c a u s e t h e r e ’s a w h o l e g r o u p o f y o u p e o p l e i t’s – t h e fir s t o n e
t h a t d e c i d e s t o b e c o m e a 2 0 4 w it n e s s a n d I s a id t o t h e m l o o k , w h a t I’ ll
d o f o r y o u is , I’ ll t a k e y o u to m y l a w y e r. I m a d e a n a r r a n g e m e n t f o r m y
la w y e r to m e e t t h e m , h e m e t w i t h t h e m , t h e y r e l a te d t h e s t o r y t o – a n d
h e g a v e th e m – t h e l a w y e r g a v e t h e m th e s a m e a d v ic e . T h e y s a id th e y
10

w o u ld th i n k a b o u t i t b u t i t w a s c le a r th a t t h e y w e r e e x tr e m e ly s c a r e d .
T h e y t h e n l e f t a n d t h e y s a i d t h a t t h e y w o u l d l e t u s k n o w. T h e y n e v e r
w e n t t o a l a w y e r a n d d e p o s e d a n a ff i d a v i t.
recording and I gave it to Mr McBride.

I s u b s e q u e n t ly t o o k t h e
Mr M c Br id e i n i ti a t e d a n

in v e s t i g a t io n a n d n o t lo n g a f te r th a t h e w a s s u s p e n d e d h i m s e l f . W h e n
h e r e t u r n e d to o ff ic e h e p h o n e d m e a n d h e s a i d t o m e t h e r e c o r d i n g h a d
g o n e m is s i n g , d o I h a v e a n o th e r c o p y, I s a id n o , I h a v e a n o t h e r c o p y s o
I f a v o u r e d h i m w i th a n o t h e r c o p y. S u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t M r M c Br id e to l d
m e t h a t t h e y h a d m a n a g e d t o o b t a i n c o r r o b o r a ti n g e v i d e n c e a n d t h e
m a t t e r h a d g o n e to th e D P P a n d t h o s e w e r e o n e o f t h e c a s e s th a t M r
20

M c Br i d e e x p r e s s e d h is fr u s tr a ti o n s a b o u t , t h a t t h e y w e r e n o t g e t t in g
a n y p o s i t iv e f e e d b a c k fr o m t h e N a ti o n a l P r o s e c u t in g A u t h o r i ty, I d o n ’ t
k n o w w h e r e t h e d o c k e t is r i g h t n o w C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Page 149 of 170

C h a ir I m i g h t j u s t a d d

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
if , I m a n a g e d t o o b t a i n a c o p y o f t h e p o s t - m o r t e m r e p o r t o f S o l i e
N g w e n y a a n d t h e p o s t - m o r t e m r e p o r t s a y s h e d i e d f r o m a s p h y x i a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON :

Fr o m ?

M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : F r o m a s p h y x i a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

S o h e ’s in p o l ic e

c u s t o d y h e d ie s fr o m – s o m e o n e m u s t b e h e l d a c c o u n t a b l e fo r h is d e a t h
it ’s n o t – if y o u d i e fr o m a s p h y x i a t i o n i t ’s a n u n n a tu r a l d e a t h w h il e
y o u ’r e i n p o li c e c u s t o d y a n d n o - o n e is r e s p o n s i b l e fo r t h a t.
10

CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a ir w h ic h t a k e s u s

t o h is i n v e s ti g a ti o n w i th t h e C a t o M a n o r m a tt e r. W h e n h e a r r iv e d t h e r e ,
I s a i d t o h i m , J a n h e r e ’s m y o ffi c e , h e r e ’s m y e q u i p m e n t I m a d e
e v e r y t h i n g a t h is d is p o s a l a n d I th in k I d i d t e s ti f y a b o u t t h is e a r li e r o n
w h e r e p e o p le li k e M o s t e r t w o u ld p h o n e m e a n d s a y t o m e t h e
in v e s t i g a t o r s h a v e tr a c e d t h e ir in f o r m e r s a n d t h e y ’ r e p u t ti n g p r e s s u r e
o n t h e in f o r m e r s t o c h a n g e t h e ir v e r s i o n s a n d t h a t’s w h e n I a l s o
r e c e i v e d a c a ll fr o m L ie u te n a n t Z u n g u w h o m e t m e a n d t o l d m e h e h a d
been approached
20

b y d e t e c t iv e s w o r k i n g w i t h M a b u la a n d h e t o l d m e

t h a t M a b u l a w a s p r e s e n t i n t h e r o o m a t t h e B l u e Wa t e r s H o t e l w h e r e
t h e y i n t e r r o g a t e d h i m a b o u t c e r t a i n is s u e s r e la t in g t o t h e k il li n g o f
M k h iz e a n d t h e y w a n te d Z u n g u to c h a n g e h is s ta t e m e n t t o i m p l ic a te m e
in t h e k il li n g o f M k h iz e a n d h e r e fu s e d .
CHAIRPERSON :

To i m p li c a t e y o u ?

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Page 150 of 170

Ye s C h a ir a n d h e

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
r e fu s e d , Z u n g u r e f u s e d a n d . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

T h is w a s M a b u l a a n d w h o , w h o w e r e .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Th e d e te c tiv e s th a t

worked with Mabula.
CHAIRPERSON :

O h M a b u l a w a s n ’ t t h e r e b u t it w a s d e t e c ti v e s .

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Chair he told me

M a b u l a w a s t h e r e a n d p r i o r t o m e g iv in g e v id e n c e , I ju s t w a n t e d to
m a k e s u r e , I p h o n e d h i m a g a in , I s a i d t o h i m Z u n g u , I ju s t w a n t to
c o n fir m , y o u to ld m e t h a t M a b u l a w a s p r e s e n t t h e r e a n d h e s a i d y e s h e
10

was present.
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Chair on that point a copy of

Zi b u s iw e W il li a m Z u n g u ’s s t a t e m e n t i s i n c l u d e d i n th e b u n d l e i n Ex h i b i t
Z B a n d i t b e g i n s a t p a g e 5 0 0 w i t h a t y p e d v e r s i o n c o n ti n u i n g t o p a g e
5 0 8 . Th e n e x t i n d iv i d u a l t h a t y o u d e a l w i t h is C o lo n e l R a j e n A i y e r a n d
t h a t ’s o n p a g e 6 4 , y o u h a v e a l r e a d y g i v e n m u c h e v i d e n c e in r e la t io n t o
C o l o n e l A i y e r t o t h e e x te n t t h a t – b a s e d o n t h e e v i d e n c e th a t y o u h a v e
g iv e n t h e r e ’s n o th i n g – t h e r e ’s n o t h i n g a d d it i o n a l i n t h e a ff id a v i t a s
s u c h . Is th e r e a n y a d d i t io n a l r e m a r k s y o u m a y w is h t o m a k e in r e la t io n
20

to him?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
t e s ti fi e d e x t e n s iv e ly a b o u t Mr R a j e n A i y e r.

C h a ir I t h i n k I ’v e
H e w a s s u b s e q u e n t ly

d is m i s s e d f r o m t h e p o l ic e f o r d i s h o n e s ty, t h e r e ’s a n o t h e r c a s e p e n d in g
a g a in s t h i m , o f in t i m id a ti o n a n d – w e ll , n o , n o s o r r y C h a ir h e w a s
d is m i s s e d f o r t h e c a s e s t il l u n d e r in v e s t i g a t io n fo r in t i m id a ti o n a n d a

Page 151 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
f e w o t h e r c h a r g e s t h a t m a t t e r, I u n d e r s ta n d i s w i th t h e D P P ’s o ffi c e . I n
a n o t h e r m a t t e r i n w h i c h h e f a b r ic a t e d e v id e n c e a g a in s t in d iv i d u a ls i n a
r o b b e r y m a t t e r, t h e M a g i s tr a t e M r A n a n d M a h a r a j o r d e r e d a n e n q u i r y
in t o h is e v id e n c e w h e r e h e li e d u n d e r o a t h a n d fa b r ic a te d e v id e n c e , h e
g o t h is g i r l fr i e n d t o

m a k e s t a t e m e n t s w h i c h w e r e u n tr u e , t o i m p lic a t e

p e o p l e t h a t w e r e n ’ t i m p lic a t e d i n th e c o m m is s i o n o f t h a t o ffe n c e a t a l l
a n d th a t d is c i p l in a r y h e a r i n g a n d t h e c r i m i n a l t r i a l i s s ti ll i n th e p r o c e s s
b u t s u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t h e c o m m i t t e d a n o t h e r o ffe n c e w h i c h is s ti ll
u n d e r i n v e s ti g a ti o n b u t h e w a s d is m i s s e d fr o m th e p o l ic e f o r t h a t. Th e
10

p o i n t I ’ m m a k i n g C h a ir is h e r e w e h a v e a p e r s o n w i t h a v e r y d u b i o u s
c h a r a c te r w h ic h g o t a n a x e t o g r i n d w i t h m y s e l f w h o m I h a d t o –
c h a r g e d d e p a r t m e n ta ll y, h e w a s fo u n d g u i l ty a n d b a s ic a l ly k ic k e d o u t o f
t h e H a w k s b y G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d t h a t ’s t h e ty p e o f p e r s o n – a n d e v e n
if h e ’s – w h a t h e s a y s is tr u e i n h is s ta t e m e n t J u d g e G o r v e n h e l d th a t i t
r e l a t e s to n o t h in g o t h e r th a n o ff ic e p o l it ic s b u t t h a t ’s t h e t y p e o f
w i t n e s s – t h a t’s th e i r k e y w i t n e s s C h a i r t h a t a d v o c a t e J i b a a n d S h a u n
Abrahams relies upon to convict me for racketeering.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I f I c a n t h e n t a k e y o u to p a g e 6 5 a t

w h ic h y o u d e a l w it h t h e n e x t i n d i v i d u a l w h o ’s n a m e d B r ig a d i e r
20

Niyameka Xaba.

D o y o u c o n f ir m th a t t h i s p a r t ic u l a r B r i g a d i e r w o r k e d

under your command?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I d o C h a ir.

A n d d o y o u a l s o c o n f ir m t h a t h e w a s

in v o lv e d i n th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n r e l a ti n g t o t h e c o m p la i n t fr o m To m
Moyane?

Page 152 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I d o C h a ir.

H e w a s a ls o i n v o l v e d – o r r a th e r

u n d e r Br i g a d i e r X a b a ’ s c o m m a n d .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

W e l l l e t h i m te s ti fy, l e t h i m te s t i fy.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

N o p r o b l e m C h a ir. D o y o u h a v e a n y

c o m m e n t s i n r e l a ti o n t o h i s i n v o l v e m e n t o n t h e m a t te r c o n c e r n in g M r
Fl o c k S i m m i n g t o n .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s n o w p u t y o u r q u e s t i o n s m o r e n e u t r a lly.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a ir B r ig a d i e r X a b a

u s e d t o w o r k w i th m e i n K w a Z u l u N a ta l , h e w a s a c o l o n e l t h e n a n d
e v e n t u a l ly h e w a s p r o m o t e d to h e a d o ffi c e w h e r e h e is a b r i g a d ie r. M y
u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t h e ’s – h e h e a d s C r i m e s A g a i n s t t h e S t a te a n d I r e fe r
t o t h e P C L U a t t h e N a t i o n a l P r o s e c u t i n g A u t h o r i ty y e s t e r d a y w h o a r e
m a n d a t e d t o d o s e r io u s c r i m e s li k e h u m a n t r a ff ic k in g , fo r e ig n m il i ta r y
a s s is t a n c e A c t.

C r i m e s A g a i n s t t h e S t a t e , i n m y v ie w w o u l d r e l a t e t o

c r i m e s s u c h a s tr e a s o n , s e d i ti o n a n d c r i m e s o f t h a t n a t u r e . S o t o s t a r t
o ff w i t h , I f i n d i t s u s p ic io u s t h a t a b r i g a d i e r w h o is i n c h a r g e o f C r i m e s
A g a i n s t t h e S t a t e m a n a g e s t o g e t h i m s e l f i n v o lv e d w i t h a n in v e s ti g a t io n
20

r e l a ti n g t o a c o m p l a i n t b y M r To m M o y a n e , I d o n ’ t r e g a r d t h a t c o m p la i n t
a s b e in g a c r i m e a g a i n s t th e s ta t e . D u r i n g t h a t i n v e s t i g a t io n t h e r e w a s
a n i n c i d e n t t h a t w a s te l e v i s e d o n t e l e v is io n w h e r e Mr X a b a a n d p e o p l e
w i t h h i m – a n d t h a t ’s m y o b s e r v a t io n s o f w a tc h in g w h a t I s a w o n T V,
k e p t i n a r o o m a g a in s t h is w i ll , t h e y a ls o to o k o r a t t e m p te d t o ta k e
d o c u m e n ts fr o m h i m b y fo r c e w h i c h , in m y v ie w c o u l d a m o u n t to a t l e a s t

Page 153 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
c o m m o n a s s a u l t . My u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t a c a s e w a s o p e n e d b u t u n d e r
the

stewardship

of

the

N PA

at

the

time

Mr

Shaun

Abrahams

u n s u r p r is in g ly t h a t m a t t e r w a s a ls o d e c l in e d t o p r o s e c u t e . I w a s a l s o
t o l d b y M r M c Br id e th a t X a b a h a d in v o lv e d w i th t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n
a g a in s t M is e s i K o k o a n d Mr I n n o c e n t K h o b a b u t C h a ir t h e p o i n t I’ m
m a k i n g is , a b r i g a d i e r h e a d i n g c r i m e s a g a i n s t t h e s t a t e g e t ti n g i n v o l v e d
w i t h t h e s e t y p e o f m a t t e r s . W h a t I a l s o f o u n d v e r y s tr a n g e w a s , in o n e
o f t h e a ffi d a v i ts t h a t a d v o c a t e J i b a d e p o s e d t o in a c iv il l i ti g a t io n th a t
w e w e r e in v o lv e d in , h e h a p p e n s t o b e t h e p e r s o n th a t c o m m i s s i o n s h e r
10

s t a te m e n t . O n e c o u l d r e a d a n y t h in g a n d l ik e t h a t b u t I ju s t f in d i t a b i t
suspicious.

M r X a b a m i g h t a r g u e th a t th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n is l a w f u l , t h e

in v e s t i g a t io n m i g h t h a v e b e e n la w f u l b u t I fi n d i t a b i t c o n s p ic u o u s t h a t
h e h a d i n v o lv e d h i m s e l f i n t h e s e ty p e o f i n v e s ti g a ti o n s a n d I j u s t w a n t
t o g o b a c k a b i t f u r t h e r C h a ir, s a m e p r o s e c u to r s e v e r y ti m e , s a m e
in v e s t i g a t o r s e v e r y ti m e . B r i g a d i e r X a b a , a n d I k n o w h i m p e r s o n a lly,
h e ’s g o t a L L B d e g r e e , h e s h o u l d k n o w w h a t is r i g h t a n d w h a t is w r o n g
when it comes to what to do and what not to do.

H e ’s n o t s t u p i d h e

s h o u l d h a v e t o l d w h o e v e r t o ld h i m t o d o w h a t h e w a s d o in g , h e s h o u ld
h a v e to l d th e m , I’ m n o t g o in g t o in v o lv e my s e l f w i t h t h is o r a t l e a s t
20

h a v e b o o k e d o ff s ic k o r d o s o m e t h in g b u t h e k n e w w e ll t h a t h e w a s
d o i n g t h e b i d d i n g o f s o m e o n e e ls e w h e n h e p e r f o r m e d t h e s e a c ti o n s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h e n th e la s t i n d iv id u a l t h a t y o u

d e a l w i th is o n p a g e 6 6 a n d t h a t is B r i g a d i e r P h a r a s a N c u b e . W h a t a r e
y o u r c o m m e n ts in r e l a ti o n to t h i s b r ig a d i e r ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Page 154 of 170

C h a ir I’v e a lr e a d y

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
g iv e n e v id e n c e h o w h e a r r e s t e d m e , h e d i d n ’ t e v e n k n o w w h a t a
f o u n d i n g a ffi d a v i t w a s b u t n e v e r th e le s s , h e w a s t h e h e n c h m a n t a s k e d
t o a r r e s t m e t h e f ir s t ti m e I w a s a r r e s te d a n d h e w a s a l s o t h e h e n c h m a n
t a s k e d t o a r r e s t m e t h e s e c o n d t i m e w h e n S h a u n A b r a h a m s a u t h o r is e d
m y p r o s e c u ti o n a n d I r e c a ll w h e n t h e y t o o k m e t o th e c e ll s t h e s e c o n d
ti m e a r o u n d a t D u r b a n C e n t r a l P o l ic e S t a t i o n , t h e m o m e n t t h e c e l l
d o o r s c lo s e h e i m m e d ia t e l y m a d e a c a l l a n d h e s a id , G e n e r a l h e w a s
a r r e s t e d . N o w t h e o n ly g e n e r a l t h a t I c a n t h i n k o f th a t h e h a d p h o n e d
a t th e t i m e , a n d I ’ m s p e c u l a t i n g b u t i t m u s t h a v e b e e n G e n e r a l
10

N tl e m e z a . T h e r e w a s n o r e a s o n , C h a ir, t o o n c e a g a i n c h u c k m e i n t h e
c e l ls , p u t m e i n t h e b a c k o f a p o li c e c a r a n d t h e n c a r t m e t o c o u r t a n d
t h e n p u t m e a t th e b o t t o m o f th e g r i ll a n d u p t h e s ta ir s li k e a c o m m o n
c r i m i n a l . C h a ir N c u b e a ls o g o t i n v o lv e d w i t h . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

S o t h e y p u t y o u a t th e b a c k o f a p o li c e v a n ?

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

T h e y w a n t e d t o C h a ir

b u t th e n t h e r e w a s a n o t h e r o ffic e r, I c a n n o t – n o , n o , n o I c a n , i t w a s a
B r i g a d ie r P e m b e , I t h in k i t w a s , I h a d d o n e a c o u r s e w i t h h i m i n
S t e l l e n b o s c h , h e h e a r d fr o m h i s o ffi c e t h a t I ’ m i n t h e c e ll s a t D u r b a n
C e n tr a l a n d t h e y w e r e g o i n g to p u t m e i n t h e b a c k o f th e p o l ic e v a n t o
20

t a k e m e t o C o u r t. H e t h e n c a m e d o w n a n d h e s a i d t o t h e m t h e r e ’s n o w
w a y s h e ’s g o i n g to a ll o w – b e c a u s e h i m a n d m y s e l f w e r e l ik e p a r tn e r s
o n t h is c o u r s e in S t e ll e n b o s c h a n d h e t o l d th e m t h e r e ’s n o w a y s h e ’s
g o i n g t o l e t m e d r iv e i n th e b a c k o f a p o li c e v a n h e ’s g o in g to t a k e m e
in h is p o l ic e c a r, s o I j u m p e d in t h e c a r w i t h h i m , h e t o o k m e t o c o u r t.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Page 155 of 170

I n th a t i n s t a n c e

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
c a n I a s k t h a t w e p l e a s e t u r n t o s l id e 6 w h ic h a p p e a r s i n b u n d l e Z D a n d
t h a t ’s t h e d i a g r a ms b u n d le .

G e n e r a l B o o y s e n y o u w i ll r e c a ll th a t a t t h e

b e g in n i n g o f y o u r e v i d e n c e a n d I s h a l l q u o t e , . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a ir b e f o r e – c a n I

ju s t m a k e a c o r r e c t i o n i t w a s G e n e r a l M p e t h e , I ’v e j u s t r e m e m b e r e d
n o w t h e g u y w h o s a i d h e ’s n o t g o i n g to a l lo w t h e m t o p u t m e in t h e
p o li c e v a n h e ’s g o i n g t o t a k e m e h i m s e l f .
CHAIRPERSON :

O h w h a t ’s h i s n a m e ?

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
10

Mpethe

I

can’t

r e m e m b e r h is f ir s t n a m e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

W h a t ’s th e s p e l li n g , h a v e I g o t i t h e r e ?

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

N o i t ’s n o t o n m y

s t a te m e n t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

O h o k a y h a v e y o u g o t t h e s p e ll in g ?

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a ir I ’l l s p e ll i t M - p -

e - t- h - e .
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y w h a t w a s h i s p o s i t io n ?

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

T h a t ti m e h e w a s a

b r i g a d i e r C h a ir, b u t I u n d e r s ta n d h e ’s n o w a g e n e r a l .
20

CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y th a n k s .

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

O k a y le t ’s d e a l w i th s li d e 6 . D o y o u

c o n fir m t h a t th is s l i d e i s e s s e n ti a l ly a c o n s o l i d a t io n o f t h e t w o p r e v io u s
s li d e s , t h e o n e w h i c h d e a ls w i t h i n d iv id u a ls i n t h e p r o s e c u ti o n c l u s t e r
a n d th e o th e r b e i n g in d i v i d u a ls w i t h i n th e l a w e n fo r c e m e n t c lu s te r ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Page 156 of 170

I d o C h a ir.

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Chair the key on the top right-hand

s id e i n f o r m s t h a t t h e l a w e n f o r c e m e n t i n d i v id u a l s a r e m a r k e d i n a b l a c k
b a c k g r o u n d a n d t h e p r o s e c u ti o n i n d i v i d u a ls a r e m a r k e d i n a w h it e
b a c k g r o u n d w h ic h f o r s o m e o r o t h e r r e a s o n d o e s n o t a p p e a r o n t h e
s li d e .
CHAIRPERSON :

Just repeat that?

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I t ’s t h e n e x t s l id e .
CHAIRPERSON :

Just repeat what you have just said.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

Ye s ,

Chair

the

witness

has

c o n fir m e d th a t th is is a c o m b i n a t io n o f t h e t w o s l i d e s o n th e to p r ig h t h a n d s i d e i s a l i t tl e b l o c k w h ic h h a s a b la c k b a c k i n g a n d th a t in d ic a t e s
the

law

enforcement

i n d iv id u a l s

which

p o p u l a te

the

d i a g r a m . . . ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

W h a t p a g e o f t h a t – t h i s E x h i b i t is t h a t , I t h o u g h t I’ v e

g o t it b u t i t l o o k s l ik e I h a v e n ’ t g o t i t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON :

I t’s t h e la s t p a g e C h a ir, p a g e 6 .

D o e s t h is d i a g r a m n o t s u ffe r fr o m t h e c h a ll e n g e s t h a t

I m e n t i o n e d e a r li e r i n r e g a r d to t h e o th e r o n e – o k a y, a lr i g h t I ’ m th e r e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

T h is d i a g r a m t h e w i t n e s s h a s

c o n fir m e d i s a c o m b i n e d d i a g r a m o f t h e l a w e n f o r c e m e n t d i a g r a m a n d
t h e p r o s e c u t io n s d i a g r a m a n d i n p a r tic u la r th e i n d iv id u a ls th a t t h i s
witness, Mr General Booysen has addressed in his evidence. General
B o o y s e n i f I c o u ld p o i n t y o u t o t h e d ia g r a m a s s u c h .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON :

Yo u s a i d s o m e t h in g a b o u t h o w – a b o u t t h o s e w h o a r e

in b l a c k a n d t h o s e w h o a r e in w h i t e , th e in d i v i d u a ls w h o s e n a m e s a r e

Page 157 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
w r i t t e n o n w h i t e w o u l d b e p r o s e c u to r s o f N PA p e r s o n n e l – p r o s e c u t o r s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s C h a ir.

A n d t h e n y o u h a v e g o t n a m e s o f – t h a t a r e o n b la c k

y o u s a y th o s e a r e in v e s ti g a t o r s ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h a t ’s i n d iv i d u a ls fr o m t h e l a w

e n f o r c e m e n t te a m , b e i t th e H a w k s o r t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n P o l ic e
S e r v ic e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m S A P S ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s C h a ir.

J a o k a y.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I t’s s i m p ly a c o m b in a ti o n o f th e tw o

p r e v i o u s d i a g r a m s . H a v i n g s a id t h a t i f I c o u l d t a k e y o u t o th e d ia g r a m
it s e l f, t h e r e a p p e a r s t o b e c o m m o n r o l e p l a y e r s a s y o u ’ v e a lr e a d y g i v e n
evidence to.

W h e n I s a y c o m m o n r o l e p l a y e r s I’ m s p e c i f ic a l ly ta lk in g

a b o u t in d iv i d u a ls w h o h a v e b e e n i n v o lv e d i n m o r e t h a n o n e o f th e
c a s e s t h a t y o u ’ v e g i v e n e v i d e n c e t o , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h a t ’s tr u e C h a ir.

I f I c o u ld t h e n t a k e y o u d o w n t o th e

k e y o n t h e b o t to m l e f t - h a n d s i d e w h ic h t h e n i d e n ti f ie s th e in d iv i d u a ls
20

w h o h a v e b e e n i n v o l v e d i n m o r e t h a n o n e c a s e a s y o u ’v e g iv e n
e v i d e n c e t o b e i n g th e P a n d a y i n v e s t ig a ti o n m a r k e d i n b lu e , t h e A m i g o s
c a s e m a r k e d i n r e d , t h e lo o ti n g o f t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e A c c o u n t m a r k e d i n
y e l l o w a n d th e C a t o M a n o r i n v e s t ig a ti o n m a r k e d i n g r e e n .

Can I ask

y o u t o r e a d i n t o t h e r e c o r d t h e i n d i v i d u a ls w h o a p p e a r c o m m o n in m o r e
t h a n o n e m a t te r a s in d ic a t e d i n t h e k e y o n t h e b o t t o m le f t - h a n d s id e .

Page 158 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Yo u r e f e r t o th e

c r o s s - c u t ti n g p e r s o n s ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s p le a s e – y e s G e n e r a l B o o y s e n .

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a i r in t h e C a t o

M a n o r i n v e s ti g a t i o n t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s A c c o u n t i n v e s t ig a t io n , t h e
c o m m o n d e n o m i n a t o r th e r e f r o m t h e a d v o c a te s a r e a d v o c a t e J i b a
N te n j w a . W i t h r e g a r d s t o th e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s A c c o u n t a n d t h e P a n d a y
c a s e N tl a m e z a , t h e P a n d a y c a s e a n d t h e A m i g o c a s e , M g w e b i .

The

A m i g o c a s e a n d t h e C a to M a n o r c a s e M o s i n g , th e P a n d a y c a s e a n d th e
10

Amigo case and the Cato Manor case Noko.

Cato Manor case the

S e c r e t S e r v ic e s A c c o u n t c a s e a n d t h e P a n d a y c a s e N g l u l i a n d P h i y e g a .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h a n k y o u . Is t h e r e a n y c o i n c id e n c e

b a s e d o n y o u r e x p e r ie n c e t o t h e r e b e in g c o m m o n i n d iv id u a ls i n v o lv e d
in t h e s e m a t t e r s ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

C h a i r fr o m t i m e t o

ti m e t h e r e w i ll b e c o i n c id e n c e s w h e r e c e r t a i n i n d iv id u a l s w i ll o v e r l a p
w i t h o t h e r i n d iv i d u a l s b u t o v e r a p e r i o d o f t i m e i n v a r ia b ly th e s a m e
n a m e s fr o m t h e P r o s e c u t i n g A u t h o r i ty, th e s a m e n a m e s fr o m S A P S , t h e
s a m e i n v e s t ig a t o r s fr o m S A P S , w h e n t h e s e ty p e s o f in v e s t i g a t io n s – I
20

r e fe r s p e c if ic a l ly a b o u t th e C a t o M a n o r i n v e s t i g a ti o n , th e P a n d a y
in v e s t i g a t io n ,

the Amigos

case

i n v e s ti g a t io n ,

the

looting

of

the

( in d is ti n c t) in v e s t i g a t io n , th e r e n d it i o n in v e s t ig a ti o n a n d t h e S A R S s o
c a l l e d r o u g e – C h a ir I t h i n k I h a v e a b e t t e r c h a n c e o f w i n n i n g t h e l o t t o
b u t it ’s i m p o s s i b l e t h a t t h e s a m e p e o p l e , s o m e h o w, j u s t f i g u r e t o b e th e
p r o s e c u t o r o r t h e in v e s t i g a t o r o r th e m a n a g e r o f t h e s e i n v e s t ig a t o r s i n

Page 159 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
a l l t h o s e c a s e s C h a i r o v e r a p e r io d o f t i m e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I f I c o u ld t h e n tu r n y o u r d ir e c ti o n t o

t h e b l o c k s a l o n g s i d e th e c i r c l e s , s o if w e s t a r t w it h t h e r e d c ir c l e w h ic h
is t h e A m i g o s b lo c k , a l o n g s i d e i t is m a r k e d a b l o c k , b e n e fi c i a r ie s i n t h e
Amigos case.

I n y o u r v i e w, b a s e d o n t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u ’v e g iv e n

w h o w e r e t h e b e n e fi c i a r i e s in t h e A m i g o s c a s e ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

I n th e A m i g o s c a s e

t h e o b v i o u s b e n e f ic ia r i e s a r e P e g g y N k o n y e n i a n d M ik e M a b u y a k h u l u .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

w h ic h

is

the

c ir c l e

A n d t h e n i n t h e P a n d a y in v e s ti g a t io n

marked

blue,

t h e r e ’s

another

block

w h ic h . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

There

th e

b e n e fic i a r i e s i n t h e P a n d a y m a t t e r C h a ir w o u ld b e C o l o n e l N a v i n
M a d h o e , C a p t a i n N a r a i n P e r s a t , L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l N k o b e n i s h e ’s n o w
r e s ig n e d fr o m th e p o l ic e , To s h a n P a n d a y, D e e b o M z o b e a n d E d w a r d
Zuma.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d i f o n e h a d t o d o t h e s a m e t o th e

b l o c k a l o n g s i d e t h e y e l l o w c ir c le w h ic h d e a ls w i th th e l o o t i n g o f t h e
S e c r e t S e r v ic e a c c o u n t , w h o w e r e t h e b e n e fic ia r i e s ?
20

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Chair although in my

v ie w th e r e w e r e a n u m b e r o f b e n e fi c i a r i e s b u t th e o n e s th a t I d ir e c t ly
d e a lt w i t h a n d k n o w a b o u t is R ic h a r d M d l u l i a n d M in is t e r N a t h i
M t h e th w a .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

If

I could

then

remind

you

of

e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u p l a c e d b e fo r e t h is C o m m i s s io n o n y o u r fir s t d a y o f

Page 160 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
h e a r in g w h e n lo o k i n g a t t h e o v e r a l l o r g a n o g r a m , d e a li n g w it h b o t h t h e
p o li c e a n d d e a li n g w i t h t h e ju s t ic e c l u s t e r s i t w a s y o u r e v id e n c e t h a t
t h e c l u s t e r s o f p o lic e , ju s t ic e , i n t e ll i g e n c e , f in a n c e , g o v e r n a n c e ,
p a r l ia m e n t a n d t h e P r e s id e n c y c a n n o t d o w i t h o u t e a c h o t h e r . T h e y a ll
f o r m v e r y i m p o r t a n t g e a r s i n t h is b ig m a c h in e r y a n d i f a n y o n e o f t h o s e
a r e a b s e n t t h e w h o l e j u s t ic e s y s t e m w il l b e c o m p r o m i s e d a n d t h a t ’s t h e
evidence that you have given.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

Chair

t h a t ’s

my

e v i d e n c e t h a t t h a t ’s i m p e r a t iv e .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o w h a t w o u ld b e t h e b e n e f i t o f

a n y o n e w h o w o u ld h a v e a b e n e f ic i a l r ig h t o v e r t h e N a ti o n a l P r o s e c u t i n g
J u s t ic e c l u s t e r o r r a t h e r, a p o lo g i e s o v e r t h e j u s ti c e c l u s t e r o r e v e n t h e
p o li c e c l u s t e r ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN:

I w o u ld lik e y o u to

r e p h r a s e t h a t q u e s t io n p l e a s e ?
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I t i s a g o o d i d e a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e s e c o n d . O k a y.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON :
20

J u s t r e p h r a s e t h e q u e s ti o n s o t h e w i t n e s s w ill

u n d e r s t a n d it .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

N o p r o b l e m C h a ir.

Yo u h a v e

h i g h l ig h te d b e n e fic i a r i e s r e l a ti v e t o e a c h p a r t ic u l a r i n v e s t ig a ti o n .

Do

y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t a s t o e x a c t ly w h a t t h e b e n e fi t w o u l d b e t o
a n y o n e w h o h a s – w h o is in a p o s i t io n i n d e c is i o n m a k i n g p o s it i o n s
w i t h i n th e s e c lu s t e r s ?

Page 161 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

C h a ir i f I u n d e r s t a n d

t h e q u e s t io n i t i s a c o u s m a t ic t h a t i f y o u a r e i n c h a r g e o f a c l u s t e r y o u
w i e l d s o m e s o r t o f p o w e r.

A n d t h a t p o w e r o u g h t t o b e u s e d w i th

d is c r e ti o n a n d w i t h i n t h e c o n f i n e s o f t h e c o n s t it u ti o n a n d w i th in t h e
c o n fi n e s o f t h e l a w.

U n f o r t u n a te ly m y e v i d e n c e I w o u l d a l l e g e

in d i c a t e s t h a t a n u m b e r o f p e o p le in t h e s e k e y p o s i t io n s w e r e t h e r e
e i t h e r p l a c e d th e r e t o b e n e fi t c e r ta i n i n d iv id u a ls , p o l i ti c i a n s a n d
businessmen .

I d o n o t b e li e v e fo r o n e m o m e n t t h a t t h e p r o s e c u t o r s

in v o lv e d , t h a t I h a v e d is c u s s e d h e r e C h a ir I d o n o t b e l i e v e t h a t fo r o n e
10

m o m e n t t h a t t h e y a c t e d w it h o u t f e a r o r f a v o u r. In m y v i e w t h e y a c t e d
w r o n g f u ll y. I w il l n o t – w e ll I h a v e o p e n e d c r i m i n a l c a s e s a g a i n s t s o m e
of them.

T h e y h a v e a c te d , t h e y h a v e n o t a c t e d i n t h e s p ir i t o f t h e

c o n s ti t u ti o n .

T h e y h a v e n o t a c t e d a c c o r d i n g to t h e ir o w n p o l ic y

g u i d e li n e s o r t h e ir o w n c o d e o f c o n d u c t .

C h a ir i n m y v ie w s o m e o f

t h e m a r e a d is g r a c e t o t h e n a ti o n a l p r o s e c u ti n g a u t h o r i t y. W it h r e g a r d s
t o L a w E n f o r c e m e n t C h a ir B e r n i n g N tl e m e z a C h a i r is th e b ig g e s t
d is a s t e r t h a t h a s e v e r h i t L a w E n fo r c e m e n t i n t h is c o u n tr y.

He has

[i n d is t in c t] a v i t a l in s ti t u t i o n t o f ig h t c o r r u p t io n i n o u r c o u n t r y C h a ir.
C h a ir w e s e e a ll o v e r t h e c o u n tr y th e r e i s s e r v ic e d e l iv e r y p r o t e s t s I
20

h a v e a lw a y s m a in t a i n e d t h e r e i s m o n e y a r o u n d b u t u n fo r t u n a t e l y th e r e
a r e c o r r u p t e le m e n ts i n o u r s o c i e ty t h a t e n r ic h t h e m s e l v e s a t t h e
e x p e n s e o f t h e p o o r. A n d th e n y o u h a v e a p e r s o n th a t i s s u p p o s e d t o
b e e x p o s i n g t h e s e – th e c o r r u p ti o n b u t t h e n h e b e c o m e s p a r t o f a g r o u p
of people that cover up the corruption.

A n d t h e s a m e a p p li e s t o th e

p r o s e c u t o r s t h a t I h a v e m e n t io n e d C h a ir.

Page 162 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

Thank you. And then the last

p a r t o f y o u r a ff id a v i t d e a l s s p e c i f ic a l ly w i t h th e r o le o f i n t e ll ig e n c e
s e r v ic e s a n d t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s . T h a t c a n b e f o u n d o n p a g e 6 6 s ta r t i n g
fr o m p a r a g r a p h 2 2 5 .

G e n e r a l B o o y s e n d o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n ts i n

r e l a ti o n t o t h e r o l e o f t h e i n t e ll ig e n c e s e r v i c e s a n d t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s ?
MAJOR

GENERAL

JOHAN

WESSEL

BOOYSEN :

C h a ir

I

have

m e n ti o n e d b e fo r e t h a t t h e S A R S s o c a ll e d r o g u e u n i t , t h e C a t o M a n o r
s o c a l le d d e a t h s q u a d a n d t h e s o c a l le d r e n d it i o n i n v e s t ig a ti o n a r e a ll
in n e c e s s a r y c a n b e li n k e d .
10

I n a l l o f t h o s e i n s t a n c e s t h e in t e l li g e n c e

s e r v ic e s w o u l d l e a k in f o r m a t io n t o – t o jo u r n a l is ts t h e s a m e t w o
jo u r n a li s ts t i m e a n d t i m e a g a i n .

S t e f a n H o fs ta t t e r a n d M z i lik a z i w a

A fr ik a . E x p o s e s w o u l d f o ll o w. O n c e th e e x p o s e s a r e p u b li s h e d w i th i n a
w o r k o r t w o t h e J o h a n Vo n L o g g e n b e r g s , t h e A n w a D r a m a ts , th e J o h a n
Booysens, the Shadrack Sibiyas and so I can carry on are suspended.
I n v e s ti g a t i o n s t h a t t h e y a r e b u s y w it h b e c o m e d o r m a n t.

I t is n o

c o i n c i d e n c e C h a ir a n d it is – t h a t h a s b e e n th e m o d u s o p e r a n d i .
L e a k i n g o f in f o r m a t io n a n d C h a ir I t h i n k i t i s i m p o r t a n t th a t I m e n ti o n
t h a t th e c u r r e n t e d it o r o f t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s Mr S iq o k o h e a t l e a s t h a d
t h e c o u r a g e o f h is c o n v i c t i o n t o a p p r o a c h m e a n d e x t e n d a h a n d t o m e
20

t o a p o l o g is e .

T h e e d i t o r o f t h e ti m e M r R a y H a r tl e y h e is m is s i n g i n

a c ti o n s o I d o n o t w a n t t o p a i n t th e c u r r e n t e d i t o r u n d e r t h e – w e l l
b l a m e h i m f o r t h e i ll s o f w h a t h a p p e n e d p r e v i o u s ly. A n d C h a ir t h a t is
o n e e x a m p le h o w t h e m e d i a c o u l d b e a b u s e d t o fu r t h e r n e f a r iu m s ,
n e f a r io u s a g e n d a s b y c e r ta i n i n d iv id u a l s . I h a v e b e e n a p p r o a c h e d b y a
p r o f e s s o r f r o m o n e o f t h e u n iv e r s i ti e s w h o i s b u s y w r i ti n g a b o o k o n

Page 163 of 170

03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
h o w t h e – h o w t h e m e d i a c o u l d b e e x p l o i t e d o r u s e d t o f u r th e r n e f a r io u s
g o a ls .
A D V O C AT E

VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER :

Do

you

c o n fi r m

General

B o o y s e n t h a t i n O c to b e r 2 0 1 8 t h e e d i t o r o f t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s M r
B o n g a n i S iq o k o a p o l o g is e d f o r g e tt i n g t h e C a t o M a n o r p u b li c a t io n
w r o n g a n d t h a t t h e r e w a s i n f a c t a n a p o l o g y th a t w a s p u b l is h e d w h ic h
a p p e a r s a s a n a t t a c h m e n t t o y o u r a ff i d a v i t a t p a g e 5 1 0 ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSE N:

C h a i r t h a t is i n d e e d

s o a n d M r S i q o k o a ls o g a v e m e a n o p p o r tu n it y to w r i te a f u l l p a g e
10

u n e d i t e d i n t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s w h ic h I d i d .

He went as far as to say

t h a t h e w o u l d w r it e a n e d i t o r ia l c o m m e n t w h i c h h e w o u l d a ll o w m e to
e d i t a n d t h a t s a y s a l o t a b o u t h i m . H e h a d s h o w n m e h is – h i s e d i t o r i a l
c o m m e n t a n d I d i d n o t c h a n g e a t h i n g a n d m y a r tic le w e n t in
u n p u b li s h e d .
CHAIRPERSON : Uncorrect – un-amended?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : U n - a m e n d e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

C h a ir I w o u ld a ls o j u s t lik e t o

p o i n t y o u r d ir e c t i o n t o t h e a ff i d a v i t o f C o l o n e l P a d a y a c h e e w h i c h a t
20

p a g e 4 7 5 a n d p a r a g r a p h 11 a ls o d e a l s w i t h th e i n v o lv e m e n t o f th e
m e d i a a n d in p a r t ic u l a r M r Wa A f r ik a .

A n d th e n I h a v e ju s t r e a l is e d

G e n e r a l B o o y s e n t h a t I f o r g o t t o a s k y o u to c o n fir m o n e o f y o u r
a ffi d a v i ts w h ic h is a tt a c h e d t o y o u r p a p e r s a n d t h a t is i n f a c t th e
a ffi d a v i t th a t y o u h a d p r e p a r e d w h ic h w a s u n s ig n e d a n d th a t y o u
in t e n d e d to h a n d o r r a th e r t h a t y o u h a n d e d t o M a j o r G e n e r a l M a t a k a t a .

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C a n I a s k y o u t o ju s t q u ic k ly p a g e t o 3 4 8 o f Fi l e Z [ B ] a n d c o n f ir m th a t
t h a t is i n f a c t th e a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u h a d h a n d e d i n w h ic h d e a lt w it h y o u r
v is it t o t h e G u p t a r e s i d e n c e ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : W h ic h p a g e ?
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I t i s p a g e 3 4 8 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a jo r G e n e r a l B o o y s e n a r e y o u l o o k i n g a t t h e c o r r e c t
le v e r a r c h fi le ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Ye s , y e s I h a v e f o u n d
it C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

I c o n f ir m t h is is t h e

s t a te m e n t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

Thank you so much.

And

then…
CHAIRPERSON :

T h a t is t h e a ff id a v i t t h a t y o u h a n d e d t o t h e a c t i n g

h e a d o f t h e H a w k s a f t e r G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a h a d l e f t?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : T h a t i s r i g h t. G e n e r a l
M a t a k a ta .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. Th a n k y o u .
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e l a s t a n n e x u r e t h a t I w o u l d
lik e t o d ir e c t y o u r a tt e n ti o n to is a n n e x u r e 2 9 w h i c h is o f t h e s a m e
b u n d l e E x h ib i t Z[ B ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u s a y 3 2 9 ?
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I t i s E x h i b i t 2 9 w h ic h is a t p a g e

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
– s ta r t s a t 5 1 3 .
CHAIRPERSON : Exhibit 29?
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

Ye s C h a ir.

O h a p o l o g ie s .

Exhibit Z[B]
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : P a g e 5 1 3 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

D o y o u r e c o g n is e t h i s a r ti c l e

General Booysen?
10

M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I d o C h a ir.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

W e r e y o u i n v o l v e d in t h e

p r o d u c t io n o f t h i s a r t ic l e ?
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : I w a s C h a ir.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d d o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t s
in r e l a ti o n t o t h is p a r tic u la r a r ti c l e ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

C h a ir I r e f e r t o th e

c o m p il a ti o n o f t h i s d o c u m e n t w h e n I w a s i n v i t e d to t h e N e ls o n M a n d e l a
Foundation.

T h a t is w h e r e t h is d o c u m e n t o r i g i n a t e d fr o m . I t is a

c o m b in a ti o n o f u n iv e r s it i e s th a t d id r e s e a r c h o n a n d t h e y ti tl e d t h e
20

d o c u m e n t B e t r a y a l o f th e P r o mi s e h o w S o u th A f r ic a is b e i n g s t o l e n . I t
in t e r a li a n a r r a t e s s o m e o f t h e is s u e s t h a t I d e a l t w i th in m y
in v e s t i g a t io n a n d th e y a c c u r a t e ly
CHAIRPERSON : Record it.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : R e fl e c t w h a t …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : W h a t my s u b m is s i o n s
were to the researchers in this document.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R :

A n d j u s t f o r t h e r e c o r d C h a ir

t h is p a r t ic u l a r e x c e r p t o n ly i n c l u d e s p a g e 3 , 1 9 , 5 0 , 5 1 a n d 5 2 o f t h a t
p a r t ic u l a r r e p o r t.

A n d t h e n fi n a l ly G e n e r a l B o o y s e n d o y o u h a v e a n y

c lo s i n g r e m a r k s ?
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

C h a ir I a m n o t g o in g

to talk from my statement.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : T h e fir s t th i n g C h a ir I
w o u ld li k e t o s a y I a m v e r y – I r e a ll y a p p r e c ia t e th is o p p o r t u n i ty a f t e r
s ix o f – a n d s e v e n y e a r s o f – o f a t t a c k a f te r a t t a c k a f t e r a t ta c k o f
p e o p l e t h a t s u p p o s e d t o b e p r o t e c ti n g m e . C h a ir I a m g r a t e f u l fo r th is
o p p o r t u n i ty.

I t is – a n d I a m a ls o g r a te f u l f o r th e t w o a d v o c a te s th a t

d e a lt w i th m e A d v o c a t e S e p t e m b e r a n d A d v o c a t e Pr e t o r i u s a n d a ls o th e
in v e s t i g a t o r s M r G r o e n e w a l d f o r t h e u n d e r s ta n d i n g i n t h e w a y th e y
d e a lt w i t h th is m a t t e r.
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
20

MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOO YSEN :

Chair I am going to

c o n c l u d e I d o n o t w a n t t o m a k e a lo n g s p e e c h .
CHAIRPERSON : H’m.
MAJOR GENERAL JOHAN WESSEL BOOYSEN :

B u t a s lo n g a s t h e

p e o p l e t h a t I h a v e m e n ti o n e d i n m y s t a t e m e n t t h e y c a n c h a n g e t h e
h e a d o f th e H a w k s , th e y c a n c h a n g e t h e h e a d o f th e N PA , t h e y c a n

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
c h a n g e t h e S t a t e P r e s i d e n t b u t a s l o n g a s th e s e p e o p l e r e m a i n t h e r e
C h a ir a n d I w ill b e p r o v e n r i g h t if t h e y s o h a p p e n t o s ta y t h e r e .

It

h a p p e n e d w i th M r N x a s a n a . M r N x a s a n a I d i d n o t k n o w h i m p e r s o n a l ly
I h a d m a n a g e d t o m e e t h i m a t a m u c h la t e r s t a g e . Mr N x a s a n a f e l t th e
b r u n t o f a c a b a l w i t h i n t h e N PA . I fe l t t h e b r u n t o f a c a b a l w i th – w h e n
I w a s m e m b e r o f th e H a w k s . U n le s s t h e y g e t r id o f t h e r o t te n a p p l e s
w i t h i n t h e N PA a n d t h e p o l ic e a n d t h e H a w k s C h a ir w e a r e d o o m e d .
T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : C h a ir
CHAIRPERSON : Well maybe…
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : C h a ir
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a j o r G e n e r a l B o o y s e n I m u s t o n c e a g a in t h a n k y o u
f o r c o m i n g f o r w a r d t o h e lp t h is c o m m i s s i o n t o g iv e e v i d e n c e a n d h e l p
t h is c o m m i s s i o n u n d e r s t a n d s o m e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t h a v e h a p p e n e d o r
w e r e h a p p e n i n g in th e L a w E n f o r c e m e n t s e c t o r a n d s o m e o f t h e th i n g s
t h a t s o m e o f t h e p e o p l e i n t h is – i n th a t s e c t o r h a v e g o n e t h r o u g h . I
am hoping that more and more people within the sector who have
k n o w l e d g e o f t h i n g s t h a t h a v e b e e n h a p p e n i n g w il l c o m e fo r w a r d a n d

20

s h a r e w i th t h e c o m m i s s io n a n d t h e n a t io n e x a c tly w h a t h a s b e e n
h a p p e n in g . B e c a u s e a s I s a i d b e fo r e l u n c h i f w e d o n o t h a v e a p r o p e r
– p r o p e r L a w E n fo r c e m e n t A g e n c i e s t h e n w e d o n o t h a v e a c o u n tr y. S o
it is v i ta lly c r i t ic a l t h a t i f t h e r e a r e th in g s t h a t h a v e n o t b e e n g o i n g w e l l ,
t h a t h a v e n o t b e e n d o n e p r o p e r l y i n t h e L a w E n f o r c e m e n t s e c to r w e
s h o u l d k n o w s o th a t t h i s c o m m i s s i o n c a n m a k e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s a t t o

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
w h a t s h o u l d r e a ll y b e d o n e to m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e c o u n tr y h a s p r o p e r
L a w E n f o r c e m e n t A g e n c i e s th a t d o th e ir j o b i n a c c o r d a n c e w i th th e
c o n s ti t u ti o n a n d t h e l a w. S o t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r c o m i n g f o r w a r d to
s h a r e w h a t y o u k n o w.

O b v i o u s ly th is i s n o t t h e l a s t d a y y o u g i v e

e v i d e n c e b e c a u s e it is l ik e ly t h a t y o u m a y b e a s k e d t o c o m e b a c k a n d I
h a v e n o d o u b t y o u h a v e n o p r o b l e m w i t h t h a t . S o w e w il l s ti ll s e e y o u I
b e li e v e b u t th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h a n d o t h e r s w h o h a v e s i m il a r
in f o r m a ti o n s h o u l d c o m e fo r w a r d a n d s h a r e w h a t t h e y k n o w w i th t h e
c o m m i s s io n a n d w i th t h e n a ti o n . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .
10

M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
A D V O C AT E V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o t h i n g f u r t h e r C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

Yo u h a v e n o t h i n g f u r t h e r.

S o fo r n o w y o u a r e

excused Major General Booysen thank you very much.
M A J O R G E N E R A L J O H A N W E S S E L B O O Y S E N : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . W e a r e a t th e e n d o f t o d a y ’s p r o c e e d i n g s .
W e w i ll a d j o u r n a n d o n M o n d a y s ta r t a t te n o ’c lo c k . I s t h a t i n o r d e r ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Th a t i s in o r d e r C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s t h a t in o r d e r ?
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : W e w i l l b e tr a n s – d e a li n g w i t h t h e
Tr a n s n e t tr a n c h e o f e v i d e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w il l s ta r t w i t h Tr a n s n e t?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n s o m e ti m e l a t e r w e w i ll h a v e m o r e w i t n e s s e s
o n L a w E n f o r c e m e n t A g e n c ie s .

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03 MAY 2019 – DAY 88
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . Ye s C h a ir w e a r e b y n o m e a n s
c o m p le t e w i th t h e L a w E n f o r c e m e n t A g e n c y tr a n c h e o f e v i d e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : B u t t h a t w i ll r e s u m e .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

A f t e r a c e r ta i n l a w – S O E ’s h a v e

been dealt with.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja. Ja. Okay no thank you.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w il l a d j o u r n t h e n fo r t o d a y a n d w e w il l r e s u m e o n
M o n d a y a t te n o ’c l o c k . W e a d jo u r n .
REGISTRAR: All rise.
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S TO 6 M AY 2 0 1 9

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