C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 02 SEPTEMB ER 2019 D AY 1 5 4 20 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 PROCEEDINGS COM MENCE ON 2 SEPT EMBER 2019 C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M r Pr e t o r i u s , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M o r n i n g D C J . C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M r N x a s a n a . Ye s a r e w e r e a d y ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s C h a ir. C h a i r t o d a y w e a r e g o i n g t o c o n ti n u e w it h a n d h o p e f u lly c o n c l u d e w it h in t w o h o u r s t h e e v i d e n c e o f Mr N x a s a n a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M a y I h a n d u p E x h ib i t E E 6 ? 10 It c o n ta in s s u b m is s io n s m a d e b y M r N x a s a n a in r e l a t i o n t o h i s s u s p e n s i o n r e q u e s t e d a t th e l a s t h e a r in g . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : It c o n t a i n s c e r t a i n j u d g m e n ts ju s t t o c o m p l e t e t h e r a n g e o f j u d g m e n ts t h a t w il l b e r e f e r r e d t o a n d i t c o n ta in s c e r t a i n c o r r e s p o n d e n c e th a t y o u r e f e r to o r r e q u e s t e d a t t h e la s t h e a r i n g b e t w e e n th e w i t n e s s M r N x a s a n a a n d t h e M in is t e r, M i n is t e r Radebe. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s m a y b e l e t u s i m m e d i a t e ly s a y th e fil e th a t c o n ta in s a le t t e r fr o m M r N x a s a n a . 20 ADV PA U L JOSEPH PRETORIUS SC: It is at page 330 th e correspondence. CHAIRPERSON: D a te 1 . 0 8 .2 0 1 4 a d d r e s s e d to Pr e s id e n t Z u m a o n t h e le t t e r h e a d s o f t h e N a ti o n a l D ir e c to r o f P u b l ic Pr o s e c u ti o n s w il l b e marked Exhibit EE6. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. Page 2 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I t h i n k b e c a u s e o f t h e la p s e o f ti m e le t u s r e d o the oath. R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: M x o l is i S a n d i le O li v e r Nxasana. REGISTRAR: D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t i o n i n g e tt i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d a ffir m a t i o n ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: No I do not. REGISTRAR: 10 D o y o u s o l e m n ly s w e a r t h a t th e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u w i ll g iv e s h a l l b e t h e t r u t h ; th e w h o le tr u t h a n d n o t h i n g b u t th e tr u th , i f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y, I tr u l y a ffir m ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I t r u ly a ffir m . C H A I R P E R S O N : H a n g o n , h a n g o n , h a n g o n . Yo u ta lk a b o u t – ta lk e d a b o u t a ff ir m a ti o n a n d t h e n y o u t a lk e d a b o u t s w e a r in g ? Is th a t a c c u r a te – j u s t r e d o i t , s t a r t a fr e s h . R E G I S T R A R : Ye s [i n d i s ti n c t ]. Pl e a s e s t a te y o u r f u l l n a m e s fo r t h e record? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: M x o l is i S a n d i le O li v e r Nxasana. 20 REGISTRAR: D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n in m a k i n g th e p r e s c r ib e d a ffir m a t i o n ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: No I do not. REGISTRAR: D o y o u s o l e m n ly a ff ir m t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w il l b e s h a l l b e t h e tr u t h ; t h e w h o le tr u t h a n d n o t h i n g b u t t h e tr u t h , is s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y, I tr u l y a ffir m ? Page 3 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I t r u ly a ffir m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e w h e r e y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d t o s a y – t o a s k h i m w h e t h e r h e a ff ir m s y o u a s k e d h i m w h e t h e r h e s w e a r s a n d t h a t w a s t h e p r o b le m . O k a y th a n k y o u M r P r e t o r i u s y o u m a y p r o c e e d . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M r N x a s a n a y o u r s t a te m e n t i n t h e b u n d l e b e f o r e y o u w o u ld y o u p l e a s e g o to p a g e 1 4 ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir I h a v e g o t i t. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e r e y o u d e a l w i t h t h e t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e w h ic h w e r e p u b lis h e d i n t h e G o v e r n m e n t G a z e t t e r e f e r r e d to 10 in p a r a g r a p h 6 0 o f t h e C a s s i m I n q u ir y w h ic h w a s e s t a b l is h e d t o in v e s t i g a t e a n d r e p o r t o n y o u r fi t n e s s to h o l d o ff ic e a s N a ti o n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b lic P r o s e c u t i o n s . Yo u r e c a ll t h a t e v i d e n c e M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s I d o r e c a ll C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e a r e d e a l t with in paragraph 61. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W o u l d y o u m u s t p l a c e t h o s e o n r e c o r d p le a s e ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A: 20 Thank you. Ye s C h a i r in t h e t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e d ir e c t e d t o t h e C h a i r p e r s o n A d v o c a t e C a s s i m . “ T h e C h a ir p e r s o n h a d t o i n q u ir e i n to w h e t h e r i t w a s fi t a n d p r o p e r o f m e t o h o l d t h e o ff ic e o f t h e N D P P i n t h e l ig h t o f t h e f o l lo w i n g : 1 . M y t w o p r e v i o u s s e p a r a te c o n v ic ti o n s o n c h a r g e s o f assault. Page 4 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 2. The c o m p l a i n ts of professional m is c o n d u c t laid a g a in s t m e w it h th e K w a z u l u N a t a l L a w S o c ie t y. 3. My having faced c r i m in a l charges for a c ts of v io l e n c e . 4 . M y a r r e s t a n d d e te n ti o n o n c r i m in a l c h a r g e s . 5 . M e d i a s ta t e m e n ts is s u e d – e i th e r is s u e d b y m e o r a n y i n s tr u c t io n t h a t u n d e r m i n e d o r b r o u g h t t h e o ff ic e o f t h e N D P P o r th e N PA in t o d is r e p u t e a n d l a s t ly a n y o th e r 10 m a t te r as might be relevant to the a b o v e m e n ti o n e d is s u e s a n d m y f i tn e s s a n d p r o p r i e t y t o h o l d th e o ff ic e o f t h e N D P P a s c o n te m p la t e d i n S e c t io n 9 [1 b ] o f t h e N D P P A c t . ” A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e n i n p a r a g r a p h 6 3 . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y Mr P r e t o r iu s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u r a is e th e i s s u e in y o u r s t a te m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M r P r e t o r iu s . M r Pr e t o r i u s . I a m s o r r y. Mr N x a s a n a t h e t e r m o f r e fe r e n c e b e fo r e th e l a s t o n e th a t y o u m e n t io n e d I t h i n k y o u d id n o t r e a d c o r r e c tly. I t s a y s : 20 “ M e d ia s t a te m e n ts e i t h e r is s u e d b y y o u o r o n y o u r in s t r u c t i o n s . I u n d e r s to o d y o u to say or any in s t r u c t i o n . ” D o y o u w a n t to c o n fir m t h e c o r r e c t p o s i ti o n ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: C h a ir I s a i d M e d i a s t a te m e n ts e i t h e r is s u e d b y m e o r o n my in s tr u c t io n . Page 5 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: That undermined or b r o u g h t t h e o ff ic e o f th e N D P P o r t h e N PA in t o d is r e p u t e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Thank you. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h e P r e s id e n t t h e n p r o c e e d e d t o f il e s u b m i s s i o n s i n r e l a t io n to t h e in q u ir y. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d y o u s a y i n p a r a g r a p h 6 3 . “ T h e c o m p l a i n ts a n d t h e s u b m is s i o n s w e r e d i ffe r e n t 10 t o t h e c o m p l a i n ts i n t h e t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e . ” A n d y o u d e a l w i t h th a t i n p a r a g r a p h 6 4 a s w e l l . w i t h th e c o m p la in t s a n d t h e s u b m i s s io n s . But let us just deal Yo u d e a l w i t h t h o s e i n p a r a g r a p h 6 3 . 1 . 1 b e fo r e w e g o t o p a r a g r a p h 6 4 . W h a t w e r e th e c o m p la i n t s a n d t h e s u b m i s s i o n s ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h e c o m p l a i n ts C h a ir a n d t h e s u b m i s s i o n s w e r e t h a t b e fo r e m y a p p o i n t m e n t I h a d f a i l e d t o d is c l o s e t o t h e P r e s id e n t o r h is a d v is o r s th a t I h a d t w o p r e v i o u s c o n v i c ti o n s fo r a s s a u l t. T h e s e c o n d o n e w a s th a t I h a d fa il e d to t a k e s t e p s t o e x p e d i t e t h e f i n a li s a t io n o f a c o m p la i n t t o t h e L a w S o c i e ty b y 20 Mr Jabulani Mjala [?] against me in 2008. Th e t h ir d w a s t h a t i n m y s e c u r i ty c l e a r a n c e a p p l ic a ti o n q u e s t io n n a i r e i n a n s w e r t o t h e q u e s t io n “Have you ever been convicted or are there any pending cases for a c r i m i n a l o r d e p a r t m e n t a l o ff e n c e ? ” Th e c o m p la i n t i s th a t I f a il e d to d is c l o s e t h a t d u r in g 1 9 8 5 I h a d b e e n a c q u i t t e d o n a c h a r g e o f m u r d e r and that during October 2012 I had been arrested but not charged for Page 6 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 in c o n s id e r a te d r i v i n g . T h e o th e r c o m p l a in t w a s t h a t I h a d fa il e d t o d is c l o s e w h e t h e r I h a d t a k e n a n y s te p s t o r e s o l v e m y c o m p l a i n t a g a in s t t h e tw o o ff ic e r s – p o lic e o ff ic e r s w h o a r r e s t e d m e u n l a w fu ll y d u r i n g O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 f o r in c o n s i d e r a t e d r iv i n g . A n d t h e l a s t c o m p la i n t w a s t h a t I h a d m a d e s ta t e m e n ts t o t h e M e d i a t h a t w e r e i n t h e p u b l ic in t e r e s t . S t a te m e n t s w h ic h fu e ll e d m e d ia s p e c u l a ti o n n e g a t iv e ly a ffe c te d th e p u b lic ’s c o n fi d e n c e in t h e N PA a n d b r e e c h e d t h e c o d e o f c o n d u c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d s o y o u c o n c l u d e g iv e n t h e d i ff e r e n c e b e tw e e n t h e t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e o n th e o n e h a n d a n d t h e 10 c o m p la i n t s a n d th e s u b m is s io n s o n th e o t h e r t h a t c e r ta i n c o m p l a i n ts in y o u r v i e w d i d n o t f a l l w it h in th e t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e . Yo u d e a l w i th th a t in p a r a g r a p h 6 4 . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Would you deal with those b r i e fl y p le a s e ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A: Ye s C h a ir. Th e – C h a ir y o u w il l n o t e th e n fr o m w h a t I h a v e r e a d t h a t th e f o ll o w i n g c o m p la i n t s d o n o t f a l l w i t h i n t h e t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e . Th e c o m p l a i n t i d e n t i fi e d i n p a r a g r a p h 6 3 . 1 th a t I h a v e r e a d e a r li e r o n . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t 6 3 .1 . 1 ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : 6 3 . 1 .1 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . Th e c o m p l a i n t i n t h e fir s t te r ms o f r e f e r e n c e w a s t h a t m y t w o p r e v i o u s c o n v ic ti o n s o f a s s a u l t m e a n t th a t I w a s n o t fi t a n d p r o p e r t o h o l d th e o ff ic e o f th e N D P P. Page 7 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 T h e n th e c o m p la in t id e n ti fi e d i n p a r a g r a p h 6 3 . 1 .2 a b o v e th a t c o m p l a in t in – th e c o m p l a i n t i n t h e s e c o n d te r m s o f r e fe r e n c e is th a t I a m n o t fi t a n d p r o p e r b e c a u s e o f c o m p l a in t s o f p r o fe s s i o n a l m is c o n d u c t m a d e a g a in s t m e w it h t h e K w a z u lu N a t a l L a w S o c ie ty. The complaint id e n t i fi e d i n p a r a g r a p h 6 3 . 1 .3 t h e c o m p l a i n t in t h e t h ir d t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e is t h a t I a m n o t f it a n d p r o p e r b e c a u s e I f a c e d c r i m in a l charges for acts of violence. Th e c o m p l a i n ts i d e n ti f ie d i n p a r a g r a p h 6 3 . 1 .3 b u ll e t 2 t h e c o m p l a i n t i n t h e f o u r th t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e w a s th a t I w a s n o t fi t a n d p r o p e r b e c a u s e o f m y a r r e s t a n d d e t e n t i o n o n c r i m i n a l 10 charges. T h e c o m p l a i n t i d e n t i fi e d in p a r a g r a p h 6 3 .1 . 4 C h a i r y o u w i ll n o t ic e t h a t n o n e o f t h e t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e r e fe r r e d t o a f a il u r e t o d is c l o s e w h a t s t e p s I to o k t o fi n a l is e my c o m p la i n t a g a i n s t th e S o u th A fr ic a n P o l ic e S e r v i c e s . I fu r t h e r s u b m i t te d th a t th e o n ly c o m p la in t c o n ta in e d i n t h i s s u b mi s s io n s t h a t s h o u ld b e a d j u d i c a t e d a t t h e i n q u ir y w a s t h e c o m p la in t i d e n t if i e d i n p a r a g r a p h 6 3 . 1 .5 b u t d e s p i t e t h i s I r e s p o n d e d t o a ll th e a l le g a t i o n s – a l l o f t h e a ll e g a t io n s c o n ta in e d i n t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s s u b m is s io n s . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l l e t u s ju s t g o b a c k if w e m a y t o t h e t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e o f t h e i n q u ir y. I j u s t w a n t s o m e c la r i fi c a t io n . W e w i ll g o b a c k 20 to paragraph 61. 6 1 . 1 .1 w a s t h e q u e s t io n o f y o u r t w o p r e v io u s s e p a r a t e c o n v ic t io n s o n c h a r g e s o f a s s a u lt . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I j u s t w a n t to c o n f ir m . I d o h a v e a c l e a r r e c o l le c ti o n o f a c o n v i c ti o n r e g a r d t o o n e a s s a u l t. I a m n o t s u r e th a t th e r e w e r e t w o . W e r e th e r e tw o c o n v i c t i o n s t h a t y o u h a d ? Page 8 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Of assault. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Ye s C h a ir in m y p r e v i o u s e v i d e n c e I s a id t h a t w h e n I c o m p l e te d th e s e c u r i ty c l e a r a n c e f o r m I d i d n o t k n o w o f t h e o t h e r – o f t h e o t h e r a s s a u l t c h a r g e b u t i t c a m e fr o m m y – m y c r i m in a l th a t I h a d a n o t h e r a s s a u l t c h a r g e a n d I d is c lo s e d t h a t i n t h e f o r m a s w e ll . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y I j u s t w a n t to – to u n d e r s t a n d a s a m a t t e r o f f a c t w h e t h e r a s w e s p e a k n o w t h e p o s i ti o n is t h a t y o u d i d h a v e a t th e ti m e 10 t w o p r e v i o u s c o n v ic ti o n s o f a s s a u l t ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . I know the one you had said related to s o m e b o d y w a s y o u r g ir lf r i e n d in t h e ‘8 0 ’s . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o t h e r o n e r e l a te d to w h a t i f y o u m a y r e m in d m e ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is w h a t I s a i d C h a ir. I s a i d I c a n n o t r e c a ll i t . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXA SANA: And it was with the help of t h e la d y w h o w a s – w h o – w h o a s s is t e d m e b e c a u s e I w o u l d n o t h a v e d is c l o s e d i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Page 9 of 216 Because I – I have 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 f o r g o t t e n a b o u t i t . I c a n n o t r e c a l l. CHAIRPERSON: But when you did get whatever documentation that r e fe r r e d t o i t w e r e th e r e e n o u g h p a r t ic u l a r s t o r e m in d y o u w h a t it w a s a b o u t? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: S o e v e n a s y o u s p e a k y o u d o n o t k n o w w h a t it w a s a b o u t? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A: N o I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r. I t h i n k th e o n ly d e t a i l w a s t h a t i t w a s a 1 9 8 5 a s s a u l t c o m m o n . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : A s s a u l t c o n v ic t io n . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A s s a u l t c o m m o n – a s s a u lt c o m m o n c o n v ic ti o n w h e r e I w a s c a u t io n e d a n d d is c h a r g e d . CHAIRPERSON: A n d y o u h a d n o r e c o l le c t io n w h e n y o u g o t th is a n d y o u h a v e n o r e c o l l e c ti o n u p to n o w ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is – t h a t is s o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A ll y o u c a n s a y is t h e r e c o r d s d o s h o w th a t t h e r e is a c o n v i c ti o n f o r a s s a u l t b u t y o u d o n o t k n o w w h a t i t i s a b o u t ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is – t h a t i s s o C h a ir. A n d t h a t is w h a t I s a i d a l s o w h e n I c o m p l e te d t h e s e c u r i t y c le a r a n c e 20 form. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A n d – a n d w h ic h m a y w e ll – w h i c h I a s s u m e m i g h t w e ll l e a v e r o o m f o r t h e p o s s i b i li ty t h a t m a y b e t h a t i n fo r m a ti o n is n o t correct on the records? Page 10 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I t is p o s s i b il it y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t k n o w – y o u ju s t c a n n o t r e m e m b e r. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I t is a p o s s i b i li ty b e c a u s e I c a n n o t r e c a ll . I tr i e d t o r e c a ll i t I c a n n o t r e c a ll i t b e c a u s e f o r a l l in t e n t s a n d p u r p o s e s I o n ly k n e w a b o u t t h i s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t o n e c o n v ic ti o n o f a s s a u l t ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y I ju s t w a n te d t h a t c l a r i f ic a t i o n . S o – s o t o the extent that you may have accepted that there were two you were 10 d o i n g s o s i m p l y o n th e a s s u m p t io n th a t th e s y s t e m o f th e s e r e c o r d s i s c o r r e c t b u t y o u h a v e n o r e c o ll e c ti o n w h a ts o e v e r a b o u t th e s e c o n d o n e ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t S ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. And 61.1.3 my having faced criminal charges for a c ts o f v i o l e n c e w a s t h a t s e p a r a t e fr o m t h e a s y o u u n d e r s t o o d i t fr o m t h e t w o c o n v ic ti o n s a n d I t h in k m a y b e i t a ls o r e f e r r e d t o – i t m a y h a v e r e fe r r e d to t h e m u r d e r c h a r g e w h e r e y o u w e r e a c q u i t te d I d o n o t k n o w. W h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t t h i s a b o u t – t h is c o m p la in t t h a t y o u h a d f a c e d c r i m in a l c h a r g e s o f a c ts o f a s s a u l t ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A: 20 C h a ir th a t w a s th e w h o l e p o i n t o f m y c o n f u s i o n b e c a u s e I d id n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h a t th e c o m p la in t is a b o u t w h i c h t h e n c u l m i n a t e d i n m e a s k in g th e P r e s i d e n t t o g iv e m e t h e p a r tic u l a r i ti e s o f w h a t h e m e a n s a b o u t it . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h y o u n e v e r r e c e iv e d ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A: C h a ir. Page 11 of 216 W h ic h I n e v e r r e c e iv e d 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 C H A I R P E R S O N : To – u p t o th e ti m e o f t h e s e t tl e m e n t ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : E v e n in d i s c u s s i o n s y o u w e r e n e v e r t o ld ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N e v e r – I w a s n e v e r t o ld . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Because in the terms of r e fe r e n c e a s y o u h a v e c o r r e c tl y p o i n te d o u t h e m a d e m e n ti o n s o f th e p r e v i o u s – o f th e s e p a r a t e p r e v i o u s … CHAIRPERSON: Convictions. 10 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : C o n v ic ti o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: H e a ls o m a d e m e n t io n o f the murder charge that I faced – the murder charge. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : B u t t h e n h e w e n t o n to t a lk about the previous… C H A I R P E R S O N : C h a r g e s o f c r i m in a l … MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Charges of violence. CHAIRPERSON: YEs. 20 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : O f v io le n c e – c o n d u c t t h e n I w a n te d to k n o w w h a t h e m e a n t a b o u t i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: But then I tried n o t w i t h s t a n d in g t o d e a l w i t h w h a t I h a d to s p e c u l a te . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . B u t th e o n ly c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s t h a t y o u e v e r Page 12 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 f a c e d i n v o l v i n g v io le n c e i f o n e m a y c a ll i t t h a t w o u l d b e t h a t y o u k n o w o f w o u l d b e th e m u r d e r c h a r g e o f w h ic h y o u w e r e a c q u it t e d . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e o n e c o m m o n a s s a u l t c o n v ic t io n th a t y o u d is c l o s e d ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t t h e r e m a y b e a n o th e r c o m m o n a s s a u l t c o n v ic t io n th a t y o u k n o w n o t h i n g a b o u t m a y b e t h a t is t h a t b u t y o u d o n o t k n o w a n y th i n g a b o u t i t ? 10 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A n d 6 1 . 1 .4 m y a r r e s t a n d d e te n ti o n o n c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s . W h a t d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t – d i d y o u u n d e r s ta n d th a t to b e s e p a r a t e fr o m t h e – t h e a r r e s t a n d d e te n ti o n i f a n y t h a t m a y h a v e b e e n c o n n e c t e d w i th t h e a s s a u l t c o n v ic ti o n a n d t h e m u r d e r c h a r g e ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A g a in C h a ir i t w a s c o n fu s i n g b e c a u s e … CHAIRPERSON: It was confusing. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXA SANA: I speculated and u n d e r s t o o d it t o m e a n m y a r r e s t f o r i n c o n s i d e r a t e d r iv in g . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : W h e r e I w a s r e le a s e d o n a R 1 0 0 0 , 0 0 b a i l a n d th e m a t t e r w a s n o t e v e n p l a c e d o n t h e r o l l t h e – b e c a u s e o f i n s u ff ic ie n t e v i d e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: But again it was a matter Page 13 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 o f h a v in g to s p e c u l a t e o n my s i d e b e c a u s e i t w a s n o t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y t h a n k y o u . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Thank you. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n a n y e v e n t y o u r e x p l a n a ti o n i n r e s p e c t o f t h e s e a l l e g a ti o n s i s c o n c l u d e d i n – o r i s i n c lu d e d in t h e d r a f t s u b m is s io n s t o th e C a s s i m I n q u ir y a t p a g e 5 1 a n d f o l lo w in g . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C a n y o u j u s t c o n fi r m i t ? Is t h a t correct? 10 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir b u t t h a t w a s t h e d r a f t w h i c h I e n d e d u p n o t p r e s e n ti n g a t th e C a s s i m I n q u i r y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h is w a s n e v e r h a n d e d t o t h e C a s s i m In q u ir y ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t w h a t w e c a n d e a l w it h is t h e a l le g a ti o n s la r g e l y i n t h e s u b m is s i o n s to t h e C a s s i m I n q u ir y o n b e h a l f o f t h e Pr e s i d e n t o r b y t h e P r e s i d e n t i n r e la ti o n t o t h e f a il u r e t o d is c l o s e 20 v a r io u s m a t t e r s ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P r i o r to y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t w h ic h y o u h a v e d e s c r i b e d o r t h e p r o c e s s i n r e l a ti o n t o w h ic h y o u d e s c r ib e d a lr e a d y t o t h e C h a i r w a s t h e r e a n y f o r m a l e n g a g e m e n t o r r e q u ir e m e n t t o p r o v i d e d o c u m e n ta t io n t o m a k e d i s c lo s u r e s t o p r o v id e w r i t te n Page 14 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 s t a te m e n ts ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o C h a ir th e r e w a s n o . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e r e w a s a s y o u d e s c r ib e d a n d I c a n p u t i t t o y o u b y l e a d i n g I p r e s u m e b e c a u s e y o u h a v e g i v e n t h is e v i d e n c e a lr e a d y. T h e r e w a s m e r e ly t h e i n fo r m a l e n g a g e m e n t s b e t w e e n y o u a n d M r H u ll e y ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA: Ye s C h a ir i t w a s a n in f o r m a l e n g a g e m e n t a n d M r H u ll e y h a d m a d e i t v e r y c l e a r to m e t h a t i t w a s n o t g o i n g t o b e a n in t e r v i e w b u t i t w a s g o i n g t o b e a n i n te r a c t i o n 10 b e t w e e n m e a n d P r e s i d e n t w h ic h is w h a t h a p p e n e d . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A f t e r y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t w e r e y o u r e q u ir e d t o u n d e r g o a s e c u r i ty c le a r a n c e p r o c e s s ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I w a s n o t r e q u ir e d – I th i n k a t t h e N PA w e to o k i t u p o n o u r s e lv e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A l r ig h t a n d y o u d i d u n d e r g o a s e c u r i ty c l e a r a n c e p r o c e s s ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h e n w a s th a t ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A: 20 I t h i n k i t w a s o n th e – I t h i n k i t w a s i n – e a r ly i n M a r c h . I t h in k 4 t h M a r c h i f I a m n o t m is t a k e n 2014. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : March 2014 or – not December 2013. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : O h D e c e m b e r. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D o e s t h a t r in g a b e l l fo r y o u ? Page 15 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I t h in k i t w a s v e r y e a r ly. It w a s v e r y e a r ly I h a v e – i m m e d i a t e ly a f t e r I w a s a p p o i n te d b e c a u s e I a s s u m e d th e p o s i ti o n o n th e 1 s t O c t o b e r. I th i n k i n D e c e m b e r y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O k a y. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o w in r e l a ti o n t o th a t a p p lic a ti o n f o r s e c u r i ty c le a r a n c e d id y o u m a k e c e r t a i n d is c l o s u r e s ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s I d i d C h a ir. ADV 10 PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S SC: C h a ir th is document is c o n fi d e n ti a l i t h a s n o t b e e n d e c l a s s if i e d b u t t h e r e i s e v i d e n c e o n t h e r e c o r d a n d in t h e p u b lic d o m a in c o n c e r n in g i t s c o n t e n t s s o if I m a y I a m g o i n g t o l e a d h i m o n t h a t? C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : D o y o u r e c a l l t h e q u e s ti o n s i n p a r a g r a p h 11 o f th a t s e c u r i ty c l e a r a n c e a p p l ic a t i o n ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t w a s t h a t q u e s t io n ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: T h e q u e s t io n w a s “ h a v e y o u e v e n b e e n c o n v i c t e d o f a c r i m in a l o ffe n c e / h a v e y o u e v e r b e e n 20 f o u n d g u i l ty i n a d e p a r t m e n t a l i n q u ir y ? ” S o m e th i n g lik e th a t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A n d m y a n s w e r to t h a t w a s y e s . T h e n I d i s c l o s e d t h e – th e a s s a u l t c o m m o n c h a r g e . I w e n t o n to d is c l o s e t h e o t h e r c h a r g e s a n d I e x p la in e d t h a t I w a s n o t e v e n a w a r e o f it a n d it w a s b r o u g h t – i t a p p e a r s o n th e r e c o r d s o f t h e S A P S . Page 16 of 216 On a 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 s e p a r a t e – b e c a u s e i t p r o v i d e s fo r a s e p a r a t e – y o u c a n p u t u p a s e p a r a t e e x p l a n a ti o n . T h e r e is a n e x p la n a t o r y n o t e o n th a t fo r m . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t is s e v e r a l p a g e s w h i c h a ll o w y o u t o p r o v i d e a d d i ti o n a l i n f o r m a ti o n . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D i d y o u m a k e c e r t a i n a d d i ti o n a l d is c l o s u r e s t o t h a t r e q u ir e d b y p a r a g r a p h 11 ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t w e r e t h o s e d is c l o s u r e s ? 10 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I d is c l o s e d t h e – t h e – even – because it – the form asked me even of the – have I ever r e c e i v e d s u m m o n s e s a n d t h e li k e I d is c l o s e d t h a t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t h a t w a s a r e f e r e n c e t o c i v i l summonses? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Civil summonses yes. I w e n t o n t o – t o e v e n d is c lo s e th a t y e s I h a d r e c e iv e d lik e t r a ff ic f in e s a n d I m a y h a v e r e c e i v e d s u m m o n s e s a n d c iv il s u m m o n s e s a n d – a n d I – I m a y h a v e r e c e i v e d t h e m b u t I h a v e n e v e r b e e n s e q u e s tr a t e d . I a l s o d is c l o s e d t h e – t h e – t h e c o m p l a i n ts a g a i n s t m e t h a t w e r e lo d g e d a t th e 20 L a w S o c i e t y, a ll o f t h e m , a ll o f t h a t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o in r e la t i o n t o th e is s u e s r a i s e d e i t h e r in t h e t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e o r i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e s u b m is s i o n s b y o r o n b e h a l f o f t h e Pr e s id e n t t o t h e C a s s i m I n q u ir y w a s t h e r e a n y th in g t h a t y o u d id n o t d i s c l o s e ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: No. Page 17 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : In fact as I understand it you w e n t f u r t h e r i n y o u r s e c u r i t y c l e a r a n c e a p p l ic a t i o n t h a n t h e s tr i c t le t t e r o f t h e q u e s ti o n s i n p a r a g r a p h 11 a n d f o l lo w i n g ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t . CHAIRPERSON: I think you wanted to add something? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o I – i n f a c t C h a ir t h e – t h e s e c u r i ty – th a t p a r a g r a p h r e q u ir e d o f m e to d is c lo s e c r i m i n a l c o n v i c ti o n s a n d p e n d i n g c a s e s b u t I n e v e r th e le s s e v e n d is c l o s e d li k e 10 t h e m u r d e r c h a r g e a n d e x p l a in e d h o w i t h a p p e n e d e v e n t h o u g h I w a s a c q u i t te d a n d I d id n o t h a v e a n y p e n d i n g c r i m in a l c h a r g e a t th e ti m e . I n s h o r t I d is c l o s e d m o r e t h a n w h a t w a s e x p e c te d o f m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : M o r e t h a n w h a t y o u w e r e r e q u ir e d t o ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I f w e c o u l d g o th e n to p a g e 1 8 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t w h e r e y o u d e a l w i th m a t t e r s th a t c o n fr o n te d y o u w h e n y o u t o o k o ffic e a t t h e N PA . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll m a y b e b e fo r e – b e f o r e w e g o t h e r e M r Pr e t o r i u s I d o w a n t t o a s k a f e w q u e s ti o n s i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s 20 c o m p la i n t s o r s u b m i s s i o n s . I f I m a y g o b a c k t o p a r a g r a p h – t o p a g e 1 5 . A t 6 3 .1 . 1 y o u s a y “ b e f o r e m y a p p o i n t m e n t I h a d f a i l e d t o d i s c l o s e t o t h e P r e s i d e n t o r h is a d v is o r s t h a t I h a d t w o p r e v i o u s c o n v ic t io n s f o r assault.” Yo u – t h a t w a s o n e o f th e c o m p la in ts a n d y o u h a v e s a i d t h a t c o m p la i n t h a d n o b a s is b e c a u s e y o u h a d d is c lo s e d , i s t h a t r i g h t o r a m I – a m I m i s u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t? Page 18 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXA SANA: C h a ir h e ta lk s a b o u t before. CHAIRPERSON: Before? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Before my appointment. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s s o y o u d is c l o s e d w h e n y o u w e r e d o in g t h e s e c u r i ty c l e a r a n c e ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. T h a t w a s a f t e r my appointment. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B e f o r e a p p o in t m e n t y o u h a d n e v e r fil l e d in a n y 10 a p p lic a ti o n f o r a j o b ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : F o r t h e jo b o f N D P P ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I t h i n k C h a ir th is w h o l e – m y a p p o i n t m e n t s h o u ld b e u n d e r s t o o d in t h e c o n te x t o f my e v id e n c e o f the 12th June. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Before this commission. CHAIRPERSON: YEs. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: That I was approached. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h o u t h a v in g a s k e d f o r a n y j o b . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Ye s h a p p i ly p r a c ti s i n g i n D u r b a n . I n e v e r a p p l ie d fo r t h e j o b . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A: And I was approached to serve. Page 19 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A n d I d i d n o t m a k e – fi ll a n y a p p l ic a t i o n f o r m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I d id n o t a p p ly f o r t h e j o b . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA : Then I – I was never asked t o d is c lo s e a n y th i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : E x c e p t fo r m y C V th a t w a s asked. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A n d l a te r o n a ft e r m y a p p o i n t m e n t I w a s th e n a t th e N PA I t h e n u n d e r w e n t t h e s e c u r i ty c le a r a n c e , t h e v e t t in g s y s te m . CHAIRPERSON: W h ic h y o u s a y y o u w e r e n o t r e q u ir e d t o d o b u t y o u took upon yourself to do it. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : W e to o k i t u p o n o u r s e l v e s a t N PA . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o y o u w e r e n o t a s k e d . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: F o r t h is i n fo r m a t i o n . Yo u w e r e n o t a s k e d t o f il l a n y a p p lic a ti o n f o r m . Yo u w e r e s i m p l y a p p r o a c h e d a n d i t a p p e a r e d t h a t y o u Page 20 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 w e r e b e i n g a p p r o a c h e d a f te r s o m e h o m e w o r k h a d b e e n d o n e to i n d ic a te that you were the right person? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t – th a t i s w h a t – t h a t is h o w I u n d e r s t o o d i t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. A n d t h e n 6 3 .1 . 2 s a y s t h a t y o u f a il e d t o t a k e s t e p s t o e x p e d i te th e f in a lis a ti o n o f a c o m p la i n t to th e L a w S o c i e t y b y M r J a b u l a n i N g a la [ ? ] a g a i n s t y o u i n 2 0 0 8 . In other words part of t h e s u b m i s s i o n s b y t h e Pr e s i d e n t w a s t h a t y o u h a d f a i le d t o t a k e s te p s t o e x p e d i t e th e fi n a l is a ti o n o f a c o m p la i n t a g a i n s t y o u t h a t h a d b e e n 10 lo d g e d i n th e L a w S o c ie t y i n 2 0 0 8 . N o w th is w a s in 2 0 1 5 i s i t n o t ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s CHAIRPERSON: S o t h is w a s n o w a b o u t w h a t s e v e n y e a r s a ft e r t h a t c o m p la i n t w a s l o d g e d ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A f t e r th e c o m p la in t w a s lo d g e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: W h il s t I was s til l p r a c ti c i n g . CHAIRPERSON: 20 W h e r e – d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d w h a t t h is c o m p l a i n t m e a n t r e a l ly b e c a u s e y o u d i d n o t fi l e a c o m p la i n t a n d y o u w e r e n o t s u p p o s e d t o d e c id e t h e c o m p l a i n t i t w a s t h e L a w S o c ie t y w h ic h w a s s u p p o s e d to d e c i d e th e c o m p la i n t . W h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f w h a t th e r e a l c o m p l a in t o f t h e P r e s id e n t w a s o n t h is a g a i n s t y o u ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A n d C h a ir th e r e a s o n – t h e r e a s o n w h y t h i s fo u n d i ts e l f – w h y t h e P r e s id e n t r a i s e d it i t i s b e c a u s e I Page 21 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 am the one who disclosed. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h i s i n t h e v e t t in g f o r m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: And I explained there. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA : And may I repeat here that in p r a c t ic e g e n e r a l ly a s a t to r n e y s ’ c li e n ts t h e y r e p o r t u s t o o u r r e s p e c ti v e l e g a l b o d ie s . Th e r e w a s n o th i n g s tr a n g e a b o u t i t . I f a c li e n t 10 is u n d e r t h e i m p r e s s io n t h a t h i s – i t w a s a n e s t a t e m a t te r a n d h e fe l t t h a t th e m a t t e r w a s t a k in g to o l o n g t o … C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d e s t a t e m a t t e r s ta k e l o n g . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h e y ta k e lo n g … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: And I was u l ti m a t e l y e x o n e r a t e d b y th e - b y th e L a w S o c i e t y. C H A I R P E R S O N : B y t h e L a w S o c ie t y. Ye s a n d y o u - y o u e x p la in e d t h a t in t h e c l e a r a n c e d o c u m e n ts ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A t th e ti m e I h a d n o t … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h e - t h e L a w S o c i e ty h a d n o t t a k e n a d e c is io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d n o t ta k e n a d e c is i o n . Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Ye s b u t i t w a s a m a t te r w h e r e I e v e n p u t u p in t h e v e t ti n g fo r m t h a t t h e r e is n o w a y th a t I w il l Page 22 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 b e f o u n d g u il ty. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I was a p p o in t e d the e x e c u to r in t h e e s t a te … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A n d e v e r y th in g w a s a b o v e board … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: 10 A n d t h e c o m p la i n t w a s g o i n g t o b e d is m is s e d in a n y e v e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : W h ic h u l t i m a te ly - w h i c h i s w h a t u l ti m a t e ly h a p p e n e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I knew this based on my e x p e r i e n c e I s e r v e d a t th e L a w S o c i e t y a s a c o u n c il m e m b e r f o r m o r e than 10 years. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: 20 I a ls o became the P r e s i d e n t o f t h e L a w S o c i e ty o f K Z N … CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A n d I k n o w th e n a t u r e o f t h e s e c o m p la i n t s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. S o - s o y o u s a y h e m u s t h a v e g o t - t h is m u s t h a v e b e e n ta k e n fr o m t h e in f o r m a t io n y o u p r o v i d e d y o u r s e l f? Page 23 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t - t h a t is s o C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: B u t w h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t h i s c o m p la i n t w a s w h e n h e s a y s y o u f a i l e d t o t a k e s t e p s t o e x p e d i t e t h e fi n a l is a t i o n ? I m e a n w h a t w e r e y o u s u p p o s e d to d o ? Yo u - y o u a r e t h e p e r s o n a g a i n s t w h o m c o m p l a i n ts w e r e m a d e a n d t h e L a w S o c ie t y w a s t h e - w a s th e b o d y t h a t w a s s u p p o s e d t o d e a l w i th t h e c o m p l a i n t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : To d e a l w i th t h e c o m p l a i n t. CHAIRPERSON: What - what was the com plaint about? 10 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : C h a ir, I … C H A I R P E R S O N : A s y o u u n d e r s to o d i t . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I d id not u n d e r s ta n d b e c a u s e I t r i e d t o e x p la i n . I r e a lly d o n o t k n o w b u t m y v i e w w a s t h a t t h e Pr e s i d e n t w a s j u s t o n a f is h i n g e x p e d it io n tr y i n g t o g e t s o m e t h i n g a g a in s t m e o r t o j u s ti fy t h e r e a s o n s fo r h i m e s ta b lis h in g th e c o m m i s s i o n of inquiry … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I n to m y f it n e s s t o h o l d o ffic e . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d t h e n 6 3 . 1 . 3 . I t r e fe r s t o th e fa c t t h a t in y o u r - in a n s w e r t o a c e r ta in q u e s ti o n o r in t h e c le a r a n c e - i n y o u r s e c u r i ty c le a r a n c e a p p l ic a ti o n t h e r e w a s a q u e s ti o n . Have you ever been c o n v i c te d o r a r e th e r e a n y p e n d i n g c a s e s f o r a c r i m in a l d e p a r t m e n t a l o ffe n c e a n d i t s a id y o u - th e c o m p l a i n t o f - t h e Pr e s i d e n t ’s c o m p l a i n t w a s t h a t y o u h a d fa il e d t o d is c l o s e th a t d u r i n g 1 9 8 5 y o u h a d b e e n Page 24 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 a c q u i t te d o n a c h a r g e o f m u r d e r a n d t h a t d u r i n g O c to b e r 2 0 1 2 y o u h a d b e e n a r r e s te d b u t n o t c h a r g e d fo r i n c o n s i d e r a t e d r i v i n g . L e t u s t a lk a b o u t th e c o m p l a i n t t h a t y o u - y o u f a il e d to d is c l o s e t h a t d u r i n g 1 9 8 5 y o u h a d b e e n a c q u i tt e d o n a c h a r g e o f m u r d e r. D i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d w h y i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n r e l e v a n t f o r - w h y it w o u ld h a v e b e e n p r o b l e m a ti c t h a t y o u d id n o t d is c l o s e t h a t y o u w e r e a c q u i t te d o f - o f a c h a r g e o f m u r d e r ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: C h a ir m y - m y v i e w a s a la w y e r e v e n t o d a t e e v e n a t th e - i n t h e v e r y f ir s t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t o 10 t h e Pr e s id e n t I m a d e i t v e r y c l e a r th a t I a m u n d e r n o o b li g a ti o n t o d is c l o s e a n a c q u i t ta l … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Because if you are a c q u i t te d … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: The p r e s u m p t io n of in n o c e n c e i t is g u a r a n te e d i n t h e C o n s t i tu ti o n th a t a n y a c c u s e d p e r s o n is p r e s u m e d i n n o c e n t u n t il p r o v e n g u i lt y. In this case I was charged a n d I w e n t th r o u g h t h e p r o c e s s . I w a s c l e a r e d b y t h e c o u r t a n d I w a s 20 a c q u i t te d . Th e r e - th e r e s h o u ld b e n o q u a l m s a b o u t t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v e y o u e v e r b e e n to l d e i t h e r b y h i m o r h is a d v is o r s w h y y o u - t h e r e w a s a n o b li g a ti o n f o r y o u t o d is c l o s e a n a c q u i t t a l ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 25 of 216 N o C h a ir b u t d e s p i t e t h a t 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I t is e v e n in c o r r e c t t o s u g g e s t t h a t I d i d n o t d is c lo s e i t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: B e c a u s e it is th e r e i n t h e s e c u r i ty c l e a r a n c e f o r m . C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e s e c u r i ty c le a r a n c e ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And th e n he also c o m p l a in e d th a t during October 2012 you had been arrested but not charged for inconsiderate 10 driving. What - what do you say about that? something. I think you have said J u s t r e m i n d m e w h a t y o u - w h a t y o u r a t t i tu d e w a s a b o u t t h is . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : C h a i r a g a i n i t w il l b e a s a d d a y if th e o r d i n a r y c i t iz e n s o f a c o u n t r y w e r e t o b e e x p e c t e d t o d i s c l o s e t h a t t h e p o li c e h a d u n l a w f u lly a r r e s te d m e a n d w h e n t h e r e w a s n o e v i d e n c e a n d I w a s th e n s u b s e q u e n t ly n o t e v e n y e t d i s c h a r g e d . The m a t t e r w a s n o t e v e n p la c e d o n t h e r o ll . O n t h e f ir s t d a y a t c o u r t I d o not even appear but … CHAIRPERSON: 20 W h i c h - w h ic h s u g g e s ts t h a t t h e - e i th e r t h e p o l ic e t h e m s e l v e s o r t h e p r o s e c u t o r d i d n o t b e li e v e t h a t t h e r e w a s a c a s e f o r y o u t o fa c e ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir a n d in - i n t h e s e c u r it y c le a r a n c e f o r m I d e a l t e x t e n s iv e l y w i t h it . I explained even I think in the correspondence that how it happened and t h a t t h e s e p le a s - I e v e n la i d a c o u n te r c h a r g e a g a in s t t h e m a n d j u s t Page 26 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 b e c a u s e I w a s t h e n s u b s e q u e n tly a p p o in t e d a t t h e N PA I d i d n o t p u r s u e it b e c a u s e I d i d n o t w a n t t o g e t my s e l f a s t h e N a ti o n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u t io n s in v o lv e d i n - i n li t ig a ti o n b e c a u s e I h a d - I h a d a b i g j o b t o - to a t te n d t o . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s a n d t h e n 6 3 . 1 .4 . H i s o t h e r c o m p l a i n t w a s th a t y o u h a d fa il e d to d is c lo s u r e w h e t h e r y o u h a d t a k e n a n y s te p s t o r e s o l v e y o u r c o m p l a i n t a g a i n s t t h e tw o p o l ic e o ffi c e r s w h o h a d a r r e s te d y o u u n l a w f u l ly fo r i n c o n s id e r a te d r i v i n g . D id y o u u n d e r s t a n d w h a t t h e b a s i s - w h y t h a t c o u ld b e a c o m p la i n t b y t h e P r e s id e n t a g a i n s t y o u ? 10 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: C h a i r fr o m - fr o m t h e r e a d in g o f t h a t c o m p l a i n t i t c a n n o t b e a c o m p la in t . m a k e s e n s e a t a ll . It - it does not Yo u c a n n o t fo r c e m e t o p u r s u e c iv i l l i ti g a t i o n a g a in s t a n y o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d - a n d w h a t is w r o n g w i t h t h a t i f y o u d e c i d e n o t t o pursue … MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: If I decided … CHAIRPERSON: A n y s t e p s a g a in s t p e o p l e w h o h a v e - p o l ic e o ffi c e r s w h o a r r e s t y o u u n l a w f u lly ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: 20 T h e r e - th e r e is n o t h i n g w r o n g C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: W e r e y o u e v e r g i v e n a n y e x p l a n a t io n w h a t th e b a s i s was of all this? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o t a t a l l C h a ir ; b u t a g a i n C h a ir to m e I g o t t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t th e P r e s i d e n t w a s r e a l ly o n t h e b a c k f o o t a n d h e d i d n o t h a v e th e s o li d g r o u n d to h a v e e s t a b li s h e d th a t Page 27 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 C o m m i s s i o n o f I n q u i r y t o l o o k i n t o my f i tn e s s t o h o l d o ff ic e . H e d i d n o t have reasons. C H A I R P E R S O N : I a s k y o u t h e s e q u e s ti o n s M r N x a s a n a b e c a u s e s o m e o f t h e s e c o m p la i n t s I h a v e d i ffi c u l ty i n u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h e m a n d I a m a s k in g b e c a u s e m a y b e y o u m ig h t u n d e r s t a n d t h e m a s t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s i n v o lv e d a n d t h e r e i s a p e r s o n w h o d id h a v e d is c u s s i o n s w i t h t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d h i s a d v is o r s t h a t m a y b e y o u m i g h t b e a b l e to t e l l m e s o m e t h i n g t h a t m a k e s m e u n d e r s t a n d th e m . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: 10 U n fo r t u n a t e l y n o t C h a ir. S a v e to s a y t h a t th e s e c o m p la in t s m o s t o f t h e m C h a ir t h e y h a d u n i n t e n d e d c o n s e q u e n c e s b e c a u s e I a m a f a m il y m a n . I h a v e k i d s a n d m y k i d s c a m e t o k n o w a b o u t m y b r u s h e s w it h t h e la w. T h i n g s t h a t th e y d i d n o t k n o w. M y f a m il y, e x t e n d e d f a m il y i t w a s h u m ili a ti o n m o r e t h a n everything for me. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , t h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d Mr P r e t o r iu s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n s u m m a r y i n r e la t io n to t h e c o m p la i n t s r a is e d b y t h e P r e s i d e n t o r o n b e h a lf o f t h e f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t a n d t h e C a s s i m I n q u i r y t h e s e c u r i ty c l e a r a n c e a p p li c a t io n d i d n o t r e q u ir e y o u t o a n s w e r t h e q u e s ti o n s d e a lt w i t h i n p a r a g r a p h 6 3 ? 20 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n a n y e v e n t a p r o p e r r e a d in g o f t h e a d d i t io n a l i n fo r m a t i o n i n t h e s e c u r i ty c le a r a n c e fo r m w o u l d d i s c lo s e t h a t y o u d id in f a c t d e a l w i t h a ll t h e s e is s u e s ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I f w e m a y g o t o t h e n e x t s e c ti o n Page 28 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 on page 18. C h a ir t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e e v i d e n c e n o w w o u ld b e t o c o n tr a s t t h e c o m p l a i n ts r e l a ti n g t o M r N x a s a n a w i t h t h e c o m p l a i n ts t h a t e x i s te d i n r e l a t i o n to A d v o c a t e s J i b a a n d M r w e b i a n d th e f a il u r e i m m e d i a t e ly t o t a k e a c ti o n i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , n o t h a t is fi n e . I ju s t w a n t t o c o n f ir m w i t h y o u t h a t i n s o f a r a s h i s - M r N x a s a n a ’s - s u b m is s io n s t o t h e C a s s i m I n q u i r y w h i c h h e s a y s h e e n d e d u p n o t - I t h i n k - s u b m i t ti n g . I n s o fa r a s they are concerned the questions that he has been asked have b a s ic a lly e l ic i te d th e a n s w e r s t h a t a r e i n th e s u b m i s s i o n s o r n o t r e a lly ? 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o t in t h e d e t a il c o n t a in e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : O r y o u w il l - y o u w i ll c o m e b a c k t o th a t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n t h e s u b m is s i o n s … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t b e c a u s e t h e s u b m is s i o n s w e r e n e v e r g iv e n t o a n y b o d y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S SC: They - the - the fa c t u a l c ir c u m s ta n c e s t h a t y o u s p e a k o f i n t h e s u b m is s i o n s a r e t h e y c o r r e c t? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d th e r e y o u d e a l in d e t a il w i t h m a n y o f th e a l le g a ti o n s c o n t a in e d i n th e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e a n d i n t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s c o m p la in t s . Yo u d e a l w i th b o th ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : W it h b o t h . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D e s p i t e t h e d i ffe r e n c e ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 29 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o a r e y o u h a p p y to t e l l t h e C h a ir t h a t i f h e r e a d s t h e f a c t s s e t o u t t h e r e h e c a n r e ly o n th e m a s being correct? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: T h a t i s - th a t i s s o C h a i r a n d th o s e … C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t - b u t is it … M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Th o s e a r e th e s u b m is s i o n s I w a s g o i n g - I w a s g o in g to … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : To m a k e - t o p r e s e n t a t t h e C a s s i m In q u ir y h a d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: It not been fo r the s e t tl e m e n t t h a t w a s r e a c h e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t o r m a y b e t h e - t h e o n e p a r t t h a t y o u - I m i g h t n o t h a v e a s k e d y o u m i g h t b e r e l a t i n g to th e m e d ia s t a t e m e n ts t h a t w e r e a l le g e d t o h a v e b e e n p u t t o y o u . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I a m g o in g to d e a l w i th t h o s e n o w C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . L e t u s d e a l w i th t h e m n o w. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I f y o u g o t o p a r a g r a p h 6 9 . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u s a y t h a t i n y o u r s u b m is s i o n t o t h e C a s s i m In q u i r y y o u d i d d e a l w i t h t h e is s u e o f th e s e v e r a l m e d i a reports … Page 30 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S SC: Of w h ic h th e President c o m p la i n e d ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t. W o u l d y o u te ll t h e C h a i r in th e m e d i a d i d y o u g o o u t to t h e m e d i a t o m a k e a n y p u b l ic s t a te m e n ts a t y o u r o w n in i ti a tiv e ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: N o C h a ir. What used to h a p p e n is I w o u l d r e s p o n d to m e d i a q u e r i e s a n d I t h i n k t h a t is o n e o f 10 t h e r e a s o n s w h y p a r t o f t h e w o r k o r p a r t o f t h e m a n d a te fo r t h e fa c t fi n d i n g c o m m i t t e e h e a d e d b y r e ti r e d J u s t i c e Ya c o o b w h ic h w e w il l la t e r d e a l w i t h i t h e r e w a s t o i n v e s ti g a t e t h e l e a k a g e o f i n fo r m a ti o n to t h e media by senior management. T h e n I w o u l d fi n d m y s e l f b e in g c o n fr o n t e d w i th is s u e s a n d I w o u ld h a v e to r e s p o n d b u t C h a i r my p o s i t io n e v e n i n th e C o d e o f C o n d u c t o f N PA a ll o w s m e t o - t o d e a l w i t h t h e m e d ia . Th e r e is n o t h i n g wrong with it. CHAIRPERSON: But to the extent that part of the - part of what the f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t m a y h a v e c o m p l a i n e d a b o u t y o u w a s t h a t y o u m a d e 20 c e r t a i n m e d i a s t a t e m e n t s t h a t m a y h a v e b r o u g h t t h e N PA in t o d is r e p u t e o r s o m e th i n g lik e t h a t . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u d i d i n d ic a te la s t ti m e w h e n y o u w e r e h e r e t h a t y o u d i d n o t k n o w t h e p a r t ic u l a r s o f t h o s e m e d i a s t a t e m e n t s t h a t h e w a s r e fe r r i n g t o b u t a t s o m e s t a g e I t h i n k I s a id th e r e i s s o m e w h e r e w h e r e Page 31 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 y o u s e e m t o h a v e s a i d c e r ta in s t a te m e n t s th a t w e r e i n t h e m e d ia w e r e a c t u a ll y c o r r e c t a n d I t h i n k th a t w a s i n t h e s u b m i s s i o n s th a t y o u m a d e t o t h e - i n t h e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s t h a t y o u m a d e to t h e Pr e s i d e n t a s to w h y h e s h o u l d n o t s u s p e n d y o u . I t h in k t h a t is w h e r e … M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: There - there was … M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Is t h e p o s it i o n t h e r e t h a t y o u w e r e s i m p ly tr y i n g t o t h i n k o f s t a t e m e n ts t h a t y o u m a y h a v e m a d e b u t y o u w e r e n o t s u r e w h a t 10 - w h ic h o n e s h e w a s c o m p la in i n g a b o u t? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. I - I e n d e d u p - b e c a u s e I w a s p r e s s e d t o r e s p o n d to t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s c o m p la i n t s a n d n o t w i t h s t a n d i n g h a v in g r e q u e s t e d t h e Pr e s i d e n t t o g iv e m e p a r ti c u la r i ti e s o f t h e c o m p l a in t . H e fa il e d t o d o s o . T h e n h e le f t m e w i t h n o c h o ic e b u t t o s p e c u l a te w h a t h e w a s ta lk in g a b o u t a n d t h a t is t h e u n f o r t u n a t e p a r t o f it . H e - h e t a lk e d a b o u t m e d i a s ta t e m e n ts a n d - a n d I d e n i e d e v e n w h e n I r e s p o n d e d t o t h e P r e s id e n t I s t il l d e n ie d t h a t t h e r e w e r e m e d i a s ta t e m e n ts m a d e b y m e w h i c h h a d t h e e ff e c t o f b r i n g i n g th e N PA 20 t o d is r e p u t e . CHAIRPERSON: A n d u n til t h e s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t w a s m a d e a n d u n t il t o d a y y o u h a v e n e v e r b e e n g i v e n a n y c l a r i ty a s t o w h a t m e d i a s t a te m e n ts w e r e b e i n g r e f e r r e d t o ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 32 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : If y o u g o t o t h e s u p p l e m e n ta r y b u n d l e - B u n d l e E E 6 - i n fr o n t o f y o u . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e d o c u m e n t a t p a g e M S O N 2 0 - 9 w h a t is th a t d o c u m e n t ? T h e fir s t d o c u m e n t i n t h a t b u n d le . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: T h is is the letter I prepared. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I f y o u lo o k a t th e h e a d i n g o n p a g e 2 - 0 - 9 y o u w il l s e e t h e … 10 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . I - I … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P u r p o s e o f t h e d o c u m e n t . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: T h is i s th e l e t t e r th a t I p r e p a r e d . I w r o t e t o t h e P r e s id e n t - P r e s i d e n t Z u m a . I w a n t t o g e t t h e date. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Wa s t h i s i n - i t is c le a r fr o m t h e h e a d i n g i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e N o ti c e o f I n t e n t io n t o S u s p e n d . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: To s u s p e n d . Ja, in terms o f S e c ti o n 1 2 ( 6 ) ( a ) o f t h e N a t i o n a l P r o s e c u ti n g A u t h o r i ty A c t. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 20 A lr ig h t . So th is was th e d o c u m e n t p r e p a r e d b y y o u r s e lf … M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S SC: Addressed to the former P r e s i d e n t d e a l i n g w i t h t h e s u b m i s s i o n s o r r e p r e s e n ta t io n s y o u w e r e a s k e d t o m a k e c o n s e q u e n t u p o n t h e is s u e o f t h e n o ti c e t o c o n s i d e r y o u r suspension? Page 33 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I f y o u g o to p a g e 2 - 1 - 3 . Yo u w i ll s e e t h e r e t h a t y o u d e a l w it h r e p o r t e d c o m m e n ts in t h e m e d ia … M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d th e r e y o u s a y i n p a r a g r a p h 18: “ I h a v e r e q u e s t e d d e ta il s a b o u t w h a t c o m m e n t s I a l le g e d ly m a d e w h e n I m a d e th e m a n d in w h a t m e d i a t h e y w e r e r e p o r te d . 10 A t t h e t i m e o f m a k in g t h e s e s u b m i s s i o n s I w a s n o t p r o v i d e d w i t h t h is in f o r m a ti o n . ” M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S SC: Were you ever after th a t p r o v i d e d w it h th a t i n f o r m a ti o n ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : No and then you made an a s s u m p t io n a b o u t w h a t r e p o r t s c o u ld h a v e b e e n r e f e r r e d to … M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d y o u d e a l t w i th t h e m ? 20 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I dealt with it. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d y o u g iv e a fu ll e x p l a n a t io n in t h e f o l lo w i n g p a r a g r a p h s ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I d o n o t k n o w i f … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o . Page 34 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I need to place that all on record. It is on record. C H A I R P E R S O N : It is o n r e c o r d . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e ju s t o n e m o r e th i n g w h ic h I t h i n k y o u d i d d e a l w i t h l a s t t i m e b u t f o r t h e s a k e o f c o m p le t e n e s s n o w. To t h e e x t e n t t h a t o n e o f t h e Pr e s id e n t’s c o m p l a i n ts w a s th a t th e fa c t t h a t y o u h a d b e e n c o n v i c te d o f a s s a u l t r e n d e r e d y o u u n f it t o o c c u p y t h e p o s i ti o n o f N D P P. W h a t d i d y o u s a y i n y o u r s u b m is s i o n s i n r e s p o n s e t o t h a t? 10 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : C h a ir I t h i n k if I r e m e m b e r w e ll I e x p l a i n e d i n d e t a il - i n d e ta il h o w i t c a m e a b o u t th a t I w a s - h o w it c a m e a b o u t th a t t h e o ff e n c e w a s c o m m i t t e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is i n r e s p e c t o f t h e a s s a u l t c o n v i c ti o n … M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h e a s s a u lt c o n v ic ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: That you know - you knew about? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : J a a n d I g a v e th e a c c o u n t o f th e - o f t h e o ff e n c e a n d C h a ir w i t h o u t d o w n p l a y in g t h e s e r i o u s n e s s 20 o f th e o ff e n c e b u t I s a i d t h e - e v e n th o u g h I d i d n o t s a y i t i n s o m a n y w o r d s th a t a n y - a n y o ff e n c e is s e r i o u s . T h e o ff e n c e o f a s s a u lt e s p e c i a l ly a g a i n s t a - a n y o n e o r e v e n w o r s e a g a i n s t a - a f e m a le is - i s s e r io u s b u t C h a i r t h e a s s a u l t v a r i e s fr o m - th e c r i m e o f a s s a u l t v a r i e s fr o m c o m m o n a s s a u l t t o a s s a u l t w it h i n t e n t to d o g r i e v o u s b o d il y h a r m . I w a s c o n v ic t e d o f a s s a u l t c o m m o n a n d I e x p l a in e d th a t i t w a s Page 35 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 t h e s l a p p in g w i t h a n o p e n h a n d a n d I s a i d th e - t h e s a n c ti o n s u r e ly i t c le a r ly i n d i c a t e s th a t th e - th e c o u r t d id n o t v i e w i t a s s e r i o u s to r e n d e r me u n fi t to hold the o ff ic e o f t h e N a t io n a l D ir e c to r o f P u b lic P r o s e c u t io n s . I h a d b e e n - I m a d e t h e n a d is ti n c t io n a ls o w it h t h e - t h e r e q u is it e i n t e g r i ty a n d c o n s c ie n ti o u s n e s s r e q u ir e d b y th e - th e Ac t … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e N PA A c t? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: C o n s t i tu t io n 10 and I said that the Th e N PA A c t a n d t h e r e q u is i te i n te g r it y and c o n s c i e n t io u s n e s s is i n n o w a y d i ffe r e n t t o t h e r e q u i s i t e i n t e g r i t y a n d c o n s c i e n t io u s n e s s r e q u ir e d o f a p e r s o n f o r a d m i s s io n a s a n a t t o r n e y a n d a s a n a d v o c a t e fo r w h i c h I a m a n a tt o r n e y … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A n d I d is c lo s e d t h a t w h e n I w a s a d m i t te d a s a n a tt o r n e y … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A n d th e r e s h o u ld n o t b e a - a n i m p e d i m e n t - t h a t p r e v i o u s c o n v ic t i o n s h o u l d n o t b e a n i m p e d i m e n t t o m y fi t n e s s t o h o l d th e o ffic e o f t h e N D P P. 20 CHAIRPERSON: S o y o u s a id y o u h a d d i s c l o s e d t o t h e H i g h C o u r t i n y o u r a p p l ic a ti o n f o r a d m i s s i o n a s a n a t t o r n e y … M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is r ig h t . CHAIRPERSON: That you had previously been convicted of common assault … M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is … Page 36 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e c o u r t h a d s e e n - h a d c o m e to t h e c o n c lu s i o n t h a t y o u w e r e f i t a n d p r o p e r t o b e a d m it t e d to a s a n a t to r n e y … M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t t h e r e is n o b a s i s t o t h i n k t h a t t h e s a m e c o u r t w o u ld t h in k th a t y o u a r e - y o u a r e f i t a n d p r o p e r t o b e a d m it t e d a s a n a tt o r n e y w h e n y o u h a v e a p r e v io u s c o n v i c t io n o f c o m m o n a s s a u l t b u t y o u a r e n o t fi t a n d p r o p e r t o b e - to o c c u p y t h e p o s i ti o n o f N D P P b e c a u s e o f t h e s a m e c o n v ic t io n ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is - th a t is p a r t o f th e p o i n t th a t y o u m a d e ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: T h a t is th e p o in t th a t I - t h a t i s p a r t - p a r t o f t h e p o i n t th a t I - I w a s m a k i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : E s p e c i a l ly C h a ir i n K Z N . I d o n o t k n o w i n o t h e r d iv is i o n s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: T h a t t h e - t h e a d m is s i o n a p p lic a ti o n s i n K Z N C h a ir - y o u m a y k n o w t h a t th e r e a r e - y o u h a v e t w o J u d g e s s i t ti n g f o r t h e a d m i s s io n s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . J a , I t h in k e v e r y w h e r e i t is t w o J u d g e s … M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : In t h e E a s te r n C a p e … C H A I R P E R S O N : If I a m n o t m is t a k e n . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I n th e E a s t e r n C a p e i t w a s one. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h is t h a t s o ? Page 37 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll o n - in P r e t o r ia w h e n I s a t t h e r e i t w a s a lw a y s two but so that - that is part of the point you made? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d d i d a n y b o d y - th e Pr e s id e n t o r a n y b o d y e v e r present any argument against that … MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t a r g u m e n t to s a y … MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Not … 10 CHAIRPERSON: T h e c o u r t is n o t - t h e r e is n o c h a n c e t h a t th e c o u r t c a n s a y th is p r e v i o u s c o n v i c t i o n r e n d e r s m e u n fi t to b e N D P P ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I t h i n k C h a ir i f - i f I r e c a l l t h e Pr e s i d e n t ’s s u b m is s i o n h e - h e w a s tr y in g t o a r g u e t h a t t h e r e q u is it e i n te g r it y a n d c o n s c i e n ti o u s n e s s r e q u ir e d o f t h e p e r s o n h o ld i n g t h e o ffi c e o f t h e N D P P i s h ig h e r … C H A I R P E R S O N : Is h i g h e r. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Than the - and our argument was that it cannot be. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . 20 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n s u m m a r y Mr N x a s a n a i f y o u lo o k a t p a g e 2 - 1 - 2 o f t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y b u n d le . T h e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u h a v e j u s t g iv e n is i t s u m m a r is e d o n t h a t p a g e a n d t h e p a g e f o l lo w in g page 212? Page 38 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Paragraph? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : F r o m p a r a g r a p h 1 2 … MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: 12, yes. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th r o u g h to p a r a g r a p h 1 7 o n t h e next page. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Thank you. W o u l d y o u ju s t place on record what you say in the second sentence of paragraph 69 o f t h e m a i n s t a t e m e n t p le a s e ? 10 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: “The President la t e r c o m p l a i n e d t h a t m y s t a t e m e n ts to t h e m e d ia d a m a g e d t h e p u b l ic ’s p e r c e p ti o n o f th e N PA . W h i l e I a g r e e d t h a t p u b l ic c o n f id e n c e i n t h e N PA h a d b e e n s h a k e n I d is p u te d t h a t i t w a s b e c a u s e o f a n y t h in g that I had done.” A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t . The attention of the m e d i a o n w h a t i s s u e s d id i t f o c u s ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Chair … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A t t h e t i m e . Yo u d e a l w i t h th a t 20 in p a r a g r a p h 7 0 . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: C h a ir a t th e ti m e t h e m e d i a ’s f o c u s w a s o n t h e u n la w f u l c o n d u c t o f A d v o c a t e s J i b a a n d M r w e b i w h o w e r e s e e n t o b e a b u s i n g th e ir p o s i ti o n s i n t h e N PA a n d h a d a c t e d u n l a w f u l ly. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W o u l d y o u g i v e s o m e e x a m p le s . Page 39 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h e s e in c l u d e d t h e - th e t h e ir in v o lv e m e n t i n w it h d r a w i n g c h a r g e s o f fr a u d a n d c o r r u p ti o n a g a in s t former Head of Crime In t e l li g e n c e M a jo r G e n e r a l R ic h a r d M d l u l i . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u a r e a w a r e o f t h e d e c is io n s o f t h e H ig h C o u r t a n d th e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l i n t h is r e g a r d ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t d i d th e y d e c i d e o n t h e s e is s u e s ? 10 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: and Advocate Mrwebi had decided C h a ir a f te r A d v o c a t e J i b a not to p r o s e c u te M a jo r G e n e r a l M d l u li o f fr a u d a n d c o r r u p t io n th e H i g h C o u r t p e r J u d g e M u r p h y c r i tic is e d t h e m . I n f a c t f ir s tl y c r it ic is e d t h e m a n n e r in w h ic h th e y h a n d le d th e - t h e m a t t e r o r i n - i n w h ic h t h e y c a m e t o th e - t o th e d e c is i o n t h a t t h e r e w a s n o - t h e r e w a s i n s u ffic i e n t e v i d e n c e a n d h e s e t a s id e th e i r d e c is i o n n o t t o p r o s e c u t e - r e v i e w e d a n d s e t i t a s i d e a n d t h e m a t t e r w a s t a k e n o n a p p e a l t o th e S C A a n d p e r J u d g e Br a n d i n t h e S C A J u d g e M u r p h y ’s d e c is i o n w a s c o n f ir m e d a n d a g a i n it c r it ic is e d t h e 20 m a n n e r in w h i c h t h e y h a n d le d t h e m a t t e r. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : In p a r a g r a p h 7 0 . 3 y o u q u o te a n e x tr a c t fr o m t h e j u d g m e n t o f J u d g e M u r p h y. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W o u l d y o u r e a d t h a t e x tr a c t o n to t h e r e c o r d p l e a s e b u t b e f o r e y o u d o s o th e r e s p o n d e n t s r e f e r r e d to Page 40 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 there who were they? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: C h a ir f o r - f o r th e - m y u n d e r s t a n d in g h e r e w a s r e f e r r in g t o t h e N PA , A d v o c a te J i b a a n d A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . What did Judge Murphy say? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: T h e - th e e x c e r p t h e r e fr o m t h is ju d g m e n t t h e J u d g e s a i d : “ S u ff ic e 10 it to say that the conduct of th e r e s p o n d e n t s is u n b e c o m i n g o f p e r s o n s o f s u c h h i g h r a n k i n t h e p u b li c s e r v i c e a n d e s p e c i a ll y w o r r y i n g i n t h e c a s e o f th e N D P P. A s e n i o r o ffi c e r o f t h is c o u r t with w e i g h ty r e s p o n s ib il it y a d m i n is tr a t i o n o f j u s tic e . in the proper T h e a tt i tu d e o f th e r e s p o n d e n t s s i g n a ls a tr o u b li n g la c k o f a p p r e c i a ti o n of th e C o n s ti t u ti o n a l e th o s and principles u n d e r p i n n i n g t h e o ffi c e s t h e y h o l d . ” A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T hen in paragraph 70.4 you r e c o r d t h a t J u d g e M u r p h y d e a lt w i t h a f a i lu r e to d is c l o s e b u t n o w t h is 20 f a il u r e to d is c l o s e is p a r tic u l a r is e d in p a r a g r a p h 7 0 .4 . What was that f a il u r e to d i s c lo s e ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Judge Murphy found that A d v o c a t e J i b a h a d f a il e d to d is c l o s e A d v o c a t e G ly n n i s B r e y te n b a c h ’s r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s i n t h e N PA’s r e c o r d o f t h e d e c is i o n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : What representations had she Page 41 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 made? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A d v o c a te J i b a h a d m a d e n o m e n ti o n o f t h e r e p r e s e n ta t io n s m a d e b y M s G ly n n is B r e y t e n b a c h u r g i n g h e r to r e v i e w t h e d e c is i o n to - to p u r s u e c h a r g e s a g a in s t M a jo r G e n e r a l M d l u li . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t. T h e n in p a r a g r a p h … CHAIRPERSON: I t h i n k t h e - I a m - I a m s o r r y M r Pr e t o r i u s . I may h a v e m is s e d - I m a y - I m i g h t n o t h a v e h e a r d c o r r e c t ly b u t I t h i n k M r Pr e to r i u s w a n t e d y o u t o s a y w h a t M s B r e y t e n b a c h ’s r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s 10 s a i d t h a t M s J i b a d id n o t d is c lo s e . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: That is - that is what I am - I a m s a y in g i n th is n e x t li n e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A p p a r e n tly Advocate B r e y t e n b a c h h a d m a d e r e p r e s e n ta t io n s t o A d v o c a t e J ib a th a t i t w a s w r o n g , th e r e w a s s u ffic i e n t e v id e n c e t o p r o s e c u t e a n d s h e w a s p l e a d in g w i t h A d v o c a t e J ib a t o r e v i e w h e r d e c i s io n t o n o t p r o s e c u t e a n d A d v o c a t e J i b a d e l i b e r a t e l y d i d n o t d is c l o s e t h a t i n t h e N PA’s r e c o r d i n the High Court. 20 CHAIRPERSON: So in other words when there was a review a p p lic a ti o n th a t h a d b e e n lo d g e d i n th e H i g h C o u r t a g a i n s t h e r d e c i s i o n n o t t o p r o s e c u t e M r M d l u li , i n d i s c l o s i n g t h e r e c o r d th a t s h e w a s o b li g e d i n te r ms o f R u l e 5 3 , I t h i n k o f t h e H i g h C o u r t r u l e s t o f il e i n t h e High Court. S h e d i d n o t i n c l u d e t h e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s t h a t h a d b e e n m a d e to h e r b y M is s Br e y t e n b a c h s a y i n g , b u t t h e r e i s e n o u g h e v i d e n c e Page 42 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 t o p r o s e c u te , p l e a s e r e v i e w y o u r d e c i s i o n , t h a t is w h a t s h e d i d n o t d is c l o s e to t h e C o u r t ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Th a t i s w h a t s h e d id n o t d is c l o s e C h a ir a n d t o t h e c o n tr a r y s h e m a i n ta i n e d t h a t t h e r e w a s n o t s u ffi c i e n t e v i d e n c e t o p r o s e c u t e M d l u li a n d w i t h h e ld a n d f a il e d t o d is c l o s e t h a t i n fa c t , s h e h a d b e e n to ld , s h e h a d b e e n a d v is e d t h a t there was evidence. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , t h a n k y o u . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 Yo u m a k e r e fe r e n c e in p a r a g r a p h 7 0 . 6 to a j u d g e m e n t o f G o r v i n J - J u d g e G o r v in . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s C h a ir. I n th e c a s e o f M a j o r G e n e r a l B o o y s e n v e r s u s th e Ac t in g D ir e c t o r o f P u b lic P r o s e c u t io n s . In e s s e n c e – o r le t m e a s k y o u , d i d J u d g e G o r v i n m a k e a n y a d v e r s e fi n d i n g a g a i n s t Advocate Jiba in that judgement? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. W h a t w a s th a t? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I th i n k C h a ir, b a s i c a ll y J u d g e G o r v i n a g a i n , c r i ti c is e d A d v o c a t e J ib a ’s d e c i s i o n to s i g n , i f I 20 r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t ly to p r o s e c u t e G e n e r a l B o o y s e n b e c a u s e s h e s i g n e d t h e r a c k e te e r in g c e r t i fic a t e . J u d g e G o r v i n d i d n o t h a v e – t h e r e w a s n o e v i d e n c e t h a t w a s p r e s e n t e d b e fo r e h i m t h a t t h e r e w a s e v i d e n c e ju s t i fy i n g th e c h a r g e s t h a t w e r e p r e f e r r e d a g a i n s t G e n e r a l B o o y s e n , e s p e c i a l ly t h e r a c k e t e e r i n g c h a r g e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A g a i n I’ m … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . Page 43 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I n o th e r w o r d s w h e n s h e d i d th a t J u d g e G o r v i n fo u n d t h a t s h e m is le d t h e C o u r t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : In paragraph 71 you deal with is s u e s r e l a te d t o A d v o c a t e M a g w e b u a n d a g a i n y o u r e f e r to t h e ju d g e m e n t o f J u d g e M u r p h y, C h a ir a l l t h e s e j u d g e m e n ts h a v e b e e n placed in the supplementary bundle. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t d i d J u d g e M u r p h y fi n d in r e l a ti o n t o A d v o c a te M a g w e b e ? 10 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA: C h a ir J u d g e M u r p h y f o u n d th a t A d v o c a te M a g w e b e ’s e v id e n c e la c k e d c r e d ib il i ty p a r t ic u l a r ly in r e l a ti o n t o h i s c o n t e n t io n t h a t h e c o n s u lt e d w it h A d v o c a t e S ib o n g il e M z i n y a t h i w h o i s t h e D P P in Pr e t o r i a t h a t is i n r e l a t i o n – th a t h e c o n s u l t e d w it h h i m b e f o r e h e d e c i d e d t o d is c o n ti n u e t h e p r o s e c u t io n a g a in s t M a j o r G e n e r a l M d lu li . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P a r a g r a p h 7 1 .2 y o u d e a l w i t h a f u r th e r fi n d i n g ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Ye s t h a t A d v o c a te M a g w e b e h a d f a i l e d t o d is c lo s e r e l e v a n t d o c u m e n t s t h a t f o r m e d p a r t o f 20 t h e r e c o r d o f h is d e c i s i o n to w it h d r a w c h a r g e s a g a i n s t M a j o r G e n e r a l M d lu li . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d in p a r a g r a p h 7 1 . 3 a n o t h e r fi n d i n g y o u r e fe r t o ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A: H e r e J u d g e M u r p h y a ls o r e j e c t e d A d v o c a te M a g w e b e ’s c o n te n ti o n t h a t t h e d e c i s i o n t o w i t h d r a w Page 44 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 c h a r g e s a g a i n s t M a j o r G e n e r a l M d lu li h a d b e e n m a d e in c o n s u l t a ti o n with Advocate S i b o n g il e M z in y a t h i . He also rejected A d v o c a te M a g w e b e ’s c o n te n ti o n th a t in v e s t i g a t io n s i n t o t h e c h a r g e s a g a i n s t M a jo r G e n e r a l M d lu li w e r e d e f e c tiv e a n d t h a t h is e v i d e n c e t h a t Mi s s Breytenbach had b e li e v e d th a t the charges were d e f e c t iv e as i m p r o b a b l e , h e fo u n d h i s e v i d e n c e u n r e li a b le . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e s e f in d i n g s w h a t d i d t h e Supreme Court of Appeal say about them? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: 10 The Supreme Court of A p p e a l c o n f ir m e d J u d g e M u r p h y ’s f in d in g s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n d i d y o u m a k e t o t h e M i n is te r o f J u s t ic e i n J u ly 2 0 1 4 ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I – on 18 July 2014 I asked Advocate Gerhard Nel to prepare a memorandum that we referred t o p r e v i o u s ly h e r e i n t h e C o m m i s s i o n . In that memorandum, that was t h e m e m o r a n d u m t h a t w a s s i g n e d o ff b y M r H o f m e y r, w h e r e I a p p r o v e d o f i t a n d w e – I m a d e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t o th e M i n i s te r to r e q u e s t th e P r e s i d e n t t o c o n s i d e r i n s t it u ti n g d i s c ip li n a r y a c t i o n a g a i n s t A d v o c a t e J ib a a n d M a g w e b e a n d to p l a c e t h e m o n s u s p e n s i o n p e n d in g th e 20 h e a r in g , I a ls o a s k e d t h e in q u ir y s h o u l d b e – I r e c o m m e n d e d th a t t h e in q u ir y s h o u l d b e c h a ir e d b y a r e tir e d J u d g e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C h a ir ju s t fo r t h e r e c o r d a n d a s s is t a n y r e a d e r o f t h e tr a n s c r ip t t h e m e m o r a n d u m a lr e a d y r e f e r r e d to in e v id e n c e appears at page 184.24. m e m o r a n d u m , i f w e c o u l d g o to … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . Page 45 of 216 W e ’v e dealt w it h that 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 CHAIRPERSON: I ’ m s o r r y M r P r e t o r iu s s o ju s t t o p u t t h e s e is s u e s i n t h e ir c o r r e c t c o n t e x t a n d p e r s p e c t iv e t h e c r i ti c is m s a n d th e fi n d i n g s – a d v e r s e fi n d i n g s t h a t h a d b e e n m a d e b y t h e C o u r t a g a i n s t J i b a a n d A d v o c a t e M a g w e b e t o w h i c h y o u h a v e j u s t r e f e r r e d , th e y a ll h a p p e n e d b e f o r e J u ly 2 0 1 4 , i s t h a t r i g h t ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. W o u ld t h a t in c l u d e t h e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l d e c is i o n o r th a t m a y h a v e c o m e l a t e r, w h ic h c o n f ir m e d t h o s e f i n d in g s ? MR 10 MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER N XASANA: It a ls o in c l u d e d … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: I t w a s a ls o b e fo r e ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A n d s o , I t h i n k I r e m e m b e r fr o m l a s t ti m e w h e n y o u g a v e e v i d e n c e th a t th e – y o u a p p r o a c h e d A d v o c a t e E ls S C fo r a n o p i n i o n in J u n e is t h a t r ig h t ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: In June of 2014. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: 20 T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A d v o c a t e E ll e s . E ll e s , o k a y I s a i d E l s o k a y, a lr i g h t s o t h is i s a l l b e f o r e y o u r e c e iv e d t h e le t t e r fr o m t h e P r e s i d e n t s a y i n g t h a t h e h a d d e c i d e d t o i n s ti t u te a n i n q u ir y a g a in s t y o u , i s t h a t r i g h t o r d i d i t h a p p e n more or less the same time? MR MXOLISI SANDILE O LIVER NXA SANA: I t h i n k C h a ir, w h e n y o u c h e c k t h e r e c o r d s , I t h i n k t h e le t t e r a d v is in g m e o f t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s d e c is i o n w a s d a t e d t h e 4 t h o f J u l y i f I’ m n o t m is ta k e n . Page 46 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 CHAIRPERSON: O h I th i n k y o u p r o b a b l y a r e r i g h t , j a 4 t h o f J u l y b u t y o u h a d a lr e a d y a s k e d f o r … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I h a d a lr e a d y s t a r t e d t h e process. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u h a d a lr e a d y s t a r t e d a n d I t h i n k l a s t ti m e I a s k e d y o u th e q u e s t io n a n d y o u s a i d t h e r e w e r e a n u m b e r o f p e o p l e w h o w e r e a w a r e th a t th is i s w h a t y o u w e r e d o i n g . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s . Ye s , o k a y a lr ig h t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : So I understand it the m e m o r a n d u m s i g n e d b y A d v o c a t e H o f m e y r i s d a t e d t h e 1 8 t h o f J u ly 2 0 1 4 b u t th a t w a s p r e p a r e d b e f o r e t h a t ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. J u s t f o r t h e r e c o r d h e ’s Mr H o f m e y r. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u s a y i n p a r a g r a p h 7 4 t h a t a t t h e ti m e y o u w r o te – o r th a t m e m o r a n d u m w a s w r it t e n , l e t ’s d e a l w i t h t h a t fir s t , p a r a g r a p h 7 4 y o u d id n ’ t w r it e th a t m e m o r a n d u m i f I understand your evidence? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o C h a ir. So that paragraph would need t o b e c o r r e c te d , I t h i n k y o u – i t w o u ld b e m o r e c o r r e c t to s a y t h a t a t t h e ti m e t h a t m e m o r a n d u m w a s w r i t te n [i n d is t i n c t ] a p p r o v e d b y y o u . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S SC: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. Yo u were considering a p p o i n ti n g a f a c t f i n d in g i n q u ir y is t h a t th e J u s ti c e Ya c o o b i n q u ir y. Page 47 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : That is correct. W a s h e in d e e d a p p o i n te d ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : H e w a s C h a ir. C a n y o u r e c a ll t h e d a t e o f h is a p p o i n t m e n t? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I t w a s o n t h e 3 1 s t o f J u ly 2014. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : And for what purpose was he a p p o i n t e d t o C h a ir a n in q u i r y ? 10 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA: things was to i n v e s ti g a t e , e s t a b l is h and C h a ir a m o n g s t o th e r d e t e r m in e the alleged in v o lv e m e n t o f t h e N PA’s e m p l o y e e s i n c lu d i n g s e n i o r o ff ic ia ls a n d t h e le a k in g o f i n fo r m a t i o n t o th e m e d i a a n d o t h e r i n t e r e s t e d p a r ti e s . The a l le g e d u n e t h ic a l a n d u n p r o f e s s i o n a l c o n d u c t o n t h e p a r t o f th e N PA’s e m p l o y e e s , w h e th e r a n y m e m b e r o f t h e N PA c o m m i t t e d a n u n l a w fu l a c t. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d y o u ’ v e a lr e a d y to l d t h e C h a ir t h a t y o u i n s tr u c t e d A d v o c a t e s J i b a a n d M a g w e b e t o c o o p e r a t e w i t h t h a t i n q u ir y. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. Did they? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e y r e f u s e d C h a ir. R i g h t d i d J u s t ic e Ya c o o b c o m p le t e a r e p o r t? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : Ye s h e d id C h a ir. D o y o u r e c a l l a t l e a s t tw o o f Page 48 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s h e m a d e ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A: r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s w a s Ye s C h a ir, o n e o f t h e th a t c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s s h o u l d b e i n s ti t u te d a g a in s t c e r t a i n m e m b e r s o f th e N PA a n d t h a t th e N PA s h o u l d a p p o i n t a ju d i c i a l C o m m i s s i o n o f i n q u ir y w i t h p o w e r s o f [i n d is t in c t] to i n v e s t ig a t e a l le g a ti o n s o f i m p r o p r i e t y i n t h e N PA . A D V PA U L JOSEPH r e c o m m e n d a ti o n th a t P R E TO R I U S criminal SC: charges Right, should be now i n s ti t u te d that or c o n d u c t e d d id t h e y i n c lu d e A d v o c a t e s J i b a a n d M a g w e b e o r n o t ? 10 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e y i n c l u d e d t h e m C h a ir W h a t d i d y o u d o w it h th e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I f o r w a r d e d th e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t o th e M i n is t e r o f J u s t ic e , th e n i t w a s M in is t e r M a s u th a a n d I g a v e th e s a m e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n to t h e P r e s id e n t, P r e s id e n t Z u m a w h e n I g a v e h i m th e b u n d l e o f a l l i n f o r m a t io n t h a t I f e l t w a s n e c e s s a r y f o r h i m t o k n o w. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t n o w a t t h e ti m e y o u g a v e t h e c o p y o f J u s t ic e Ya c o o b ’s r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s to t h e M i n i s te r o f 20 J u s t ic e a n d t h e P r e s i d e n t , a p a r t fr o m t h a t, d i d t h e Pr e s id e n t h a v e – f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t h a v e a n y o th e r i n fo r m a ti o n e m a n a t in g f r o m y o u o r a n y w h e r e e ls e in r e l a ti o n t o t h e c o n d u c t o f A d v o c a t e s J i b a a n d Magwebe? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C h a ir I d o n o t r e c a ll . T h e m e m o r a n d u m , th e C o u r t Page 49 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 J u d g e m e n ts , th e y w o u l d h a v e b e e n p u b li s h e d . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A: B e c a u s e I c a n n o t r e c a ll in t h e o r d e r o f s e q u e n c e b e c a u s e w e h a d p r e v io u s ly p r e p a r e d t h e m e m o r a n d u m t o t h e Mi n is te r, t h e r e w a s t h a t t o a n d fr o c o m m u n i c a t io n b e t w e e n t h e M in is t e r a n d m y o ff ic e a n d M r H o f m e y r w h e r e M i n is t e r M a s u t h a w a s b a s ic a l ly a s k i n g w h y i t w a s M r H o f m e y r w h o s i g n e d t h e m e m o r a n d u m a n d i n t h a t m e m o r a n d u m it c o n t a i n e d a ll o f th is , a n d w h a t s t e p s d i d I ta k e a n d w e t h e n e x p la i n e d t h a t a n d I r e m e m b e r, C h a ir, t h a t in t h e – I t h i n k w h e n I s u b s e q u e n tly h a n d e d t h e m e m o r a n d u m t o t h e 10 M i n is t e r I p o i n te d o u t t o h i m t h a t I – m y v ie w i s t h a t h e ’s d e l a y i n g c o n v e y in g t h i s t o t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d I h a v e d e c id e d t o d o i t m y s e lf , I r e m e m b e r t h a t I d id t h a t b u t t h e o r d e r o f s e q u e n c e I c a n n o t r e c a l l. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t is i t c o r r e c t t h e n a t s o m e s t a g e t h e m e m o r a n d u m w a s g iv e n t o t h e f o r me r P r e s i d e n t ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W a s th a t b y y o u r s e l f ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: 20 That is correct. By m y s e l f y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Is the sequence that you can’t remember whether the preceded memorandum the handing the s u b m is s io n of th e m e m o r a n d u m t o t h e M i n i s te r a n d s u b s e q u e n t to th e Pr e s id e n t p r e c e d e d t h e s u b m i s s i o n o f t h e r e p o r t o f J u s t ic e Ya c o o b o r i t w a s t h e o th e r, is t h a t w h a t y o u c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r w h ic h o n e w a s d o n e f ir s t ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A: r e m e m b e r, y e s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y n o t th a t ’s fi n e . Page 50 of 216 Ye s th a t i s w h a t I c a n ’ t 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Be that as it may you do know t h a t th e fo r m e r Pr e s id e n t d id r e c e i v e a c o p y o f J u s tic e Ya c o o b ’s r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir h e e v e n t h a n k e d m e fo r b r in g in g th a t to h i s a t t e n t io n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t h o s e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s d e a lt w i t h th e i s s u e s t o w h ic h y o u ’v e n o w t e s ti f ie d ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. D i d t h e fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t a c t o n t h o s e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: U n f o r tu n a t e ly n o t C h a ir. D id h e e v e r t e l l y o u w h y h e w a s n o t a c ti n g o n th e m ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER N XASANA: N o h e d id n o t C h a ir t h e u n f o r t u n a t e s it u a ti o n is t h a t h e a c t e d a g a i n s t m e in s te a d o f a c t i n g a g a in s t t h e m . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A n d t h e u n fo r t u n a t e p a r t C h a ir, is t h a t A d v o c a t e J ib a a n d M a g w e b e – w e ll I h e a r d i t fr o m c o r r i d o r t a lk s t h e y w e r e b r a g g in g th a t n o t h i n g w a s g o i n g t o h a p p e n t o t h e m a n d 20 t h e n w h e n i t d id n ’t h a p p e n – w h e n t h e Pr e s i d e n t d i d n ’ t t a k e a n y a c ti o n a g a in s t t h e m , i t c a m e a s n o s u r p r is e a n d it j u s t c o n fir m e d w h a t t h e y – t h e r u m o u r th a t I w a s h e a r i n g . CHAIRPERSON: T h e b r a g g i n g t h a t y o u r e fe r r e d t o w a s t h a t b r a g g i n g t h a t t h e y d id w i th in y o u r p r e s e n c e o r is i t r e p o r ts th a t y o u r e c e iv e d fr o m o t h e r p e o p le th a t t h e y w e r e b r a g g i n g t h a t n o t h i n g w o u ld h a p p e n t o Page 51 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 them? MR MXO LISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A: N o i t w a s t h e r e p o r ts I w a s r e c e iv in g fr o m o th e r p e o p l e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: T h a t’s w h y I s a y i t ’s t h e r u m o u r b u t u l ti m a t e l y i t ’s a f a c t t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t d i d n ’ t t a k e a n y a c ti o n . I w i ll h e a r t h e r u m o u r C h a ir – o n e r u m o u r w a s th a t I w a s to l d b y s o m e o n e t h a t th e P r e s i d e n t s a id t o h i m , t h e p r o b le m w i t h th e b o y, r e fe r r i n g t o m e , is t h a t h e d o e s n ’ t s e e e y e - t o - e y e w i t h t h e g ir l , r e f e r r i n g 10 t o J i b a a n d t h a t ’s – th o s e a r e a ll p a r t o f t h e r u m o u r s … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: B u t th a t ’s s o m e t h in g t h a t w a s n ’ t s a id t o y o u i n y o u r presence? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : C h a ir I’v e b e e n g iv e n a h e lp f u l note if I may just place on record. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n . 20 T h is i s m a t t e r s e m a n a ti n g fr o m The Judgement of Judge Murphy was dated the 2 3 r d o f S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 3 . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Supreme Court of Appeal ju d g m e n t w a s d a t e d t h e 1 7 t h o f A p r i l 2 0 1 4 a n d t h e j u d g m e n t o f J u d g e G o r v i n i n r e l a ti o n t o G e n e r a l B o o y s e n w a s d a te d th e 2 6 t h o f Fe b r u a r y 2014. Page 52 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : J u s ti c e Ya c o o b w a s a p p o in t e d o n t h e 3 1 s t o f J u ly 2 0 1 4 . CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : L e t ’s m o v e o n t o a n o t h e r to p i c p l e a s e a n d th a t is th e a ff id a v i t o f t h e f o r m e r P r e s id e n t i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e c ir c u m s ta n c e s p r e c e d i n g t h e s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t w h ic h h e r e f e r r e d t o on page 22. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s C h a ir. J u s t t o r e c a p C h a ir, i n t h e b u n d l e th a t s h o u l d b e b e f o r e y o u o f d a y 111 o n t h e 1 2 t h o f J u n e 2 0 1 9 , t h e e v i d e n c e b e f o r e y o u , C h a ir i f w e c a n , i n a c c o r d a n c e w i th y o u r d ir e c t io n r e f e r t o , n o t a n y b u n d l e p a g e , r a th e r t h e a c tu a l p a g e f o r t h e tr a n s c r ip t f o r t h e r e c o r d f o r th e s a k e o f c o n s i s te n c y, d o y o u h a v e t h a t i n fr o n t o f y o u M r N x a s a n a ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I do. Would you go to page 121 t h a t ’s t h e p a g e s a r e s e t o u t a t t h e b o t to m o f t h e p a g e . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s C h a ir. Yo u ’l l r e c a l l th a t o n t h e 1 2 t h o f J u n e w e w e r e d e a l in g w i t h t h e j u d g m e n t o f th e C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A n d t h a t j u d g e m e n t is q u o te d o n p a g e 1 2 0 a t li n e 1 0 . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Page 53 of 216 Ye s C h a ir. 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : The judgment reads, “ I t a p p e a r s fr o m a l e t t e r w r i t t e n o n 1 0 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 b y a tt o r n e y s a c ti n g f o r M r N x a s a n a t h a t f o r me r P r e s i d e n t h a d e n g a g e d Mr N x a s a n a to g e t h i m t o a g r e e t o v a c a t e o ff ic e . In t h e l e tt e r Mr N x a s a n a m a d e i t p l a i n t h a t h e d i d n o t w a n t t o v a c a t e o ff ic e a s th e r e w a s n o b a s i s f o r h i m t o d o s o . He s t a te d t h a t h e w o u l d , h o w e v e r, c o n s i d e r s t e p p i n g d o w n o n ly i f h e w a s f u lly c o m p e n s a t e d fo r th e r e m a i n d e r o f t h e c o n t r a c t period”, 10 A n d y o u c o n fir m e d i n y o u r e v i d e n c e o n t h a t d a y, th a t , t h a t w a s t h e c o r r e c t r e c o r d o f t h e f a c ts in s o f a r a s y o u w e r e c o n c e r n e d . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. I f o n e g o e s to p a g e 1 2 1 y o u r e v i d e n c e r e a d s a t li n e f iv e , “ O k a y t h a n k y o u C h a ir I a t n o s t a g e , d id I m a k e a r e q u e s t to v a c a t e t h e o ff ic e t o t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t M r J a c o b Z u m a a n d t h a t le t t e r o f t h e 1 0 t h t h a t is r e fe r r e d t o h e r e I w a s a ls o in v o lv e d i n d r a f ti n g t h a t l e t te r a n d y o u s a y a t th e e n d o f t h a t p a r a g r a p h t h e C o u r t f o u n d c o r r e c t ly th a t I d id n o t m a k e a n y 20 request I never made that request”, Do you recall that evidence? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. Yo u s t il l c o n fir m t h a t , t h a t e v i d e n c e is c o r r e c t d o y o u ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Page 54 of 216 Ye s I d o c o n fir m C h a ir. 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d th e n t h e ju d g m e n t g o e s f u r th e r t o s a y – a n d t h is is a t t h e s e c o n d p a r t o f p a g e 1 2 1 , “ I t m u s t b e n o te d r i g h t fr o m t h e o n s e t a n d t h r o u g h o u t th e e n t ir e n e g o ti a ti o n p r o c e s s t h a t c u l m i n a te d in t h e s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t M r N x a s a n a u n e q u i v o c a lly s t a t e d t h a t h e d id n o t w i s h to r e s ig n a n d t h a t h e c o n s i d e r e d h i m s e l f t o b e fi t f o r o ffic e . In s te a d h is p r e fe r e n c e w a s f o r f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t Z u m a ’s a l le g a ti o n t h a t h e w a s n o lo n g e r f it f o r o ffi c e , t o b e t e s t e d in a f o r m a l in q u ir y a s p r o p o s e d b y t h e fo r m e r Pr e s i d e n t a n d t h e n o v e r t h e p a g e t h e j u d g m e n t c o n ti n u e s , t h r o u g h o u t h e p r o t e s t e d 10 t h e e x is t e n c e o f a f a c t u a l o r le g a l b a s i s f o r h i m t o v a c a t e o ffic e , a ls o h e d is a v o w e d a n y in d ic a t i o n b y h i m S e c ti o n 1 2 ( 8 ) o f t h e A c t t o v o l u n ta r il y v a c a t e o ffic e . I t is s o o f c o u r s e , t h a t h e d i d in d ic a t e t h a t h e w o u ld r e s ig n o n l y if h e w a s p a i d t h e f u l l s a l a r y f o r t h e r e m a in d e r o f h i s t e r m o f o ffic e ” , T h e n I a s k e d y o u th e q u e s t io n d o e s t h a t f a ir ly s u m m a r is e t h e p o s i ti o n a s f a r a s y o u a r e a w a r e a n d y o u s a y, “ T h a t is c o r r e c t i t f a ir ly s u m m a r i s e s t h e p o s i ti o n ” , So in that part of your evidence you placed on record your 20 v ie w o f th e fa c t s a n d y o u r r e c o r d a l o f t h e f a c ts r e l a ti n g t o t h e s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t c o n s is t e n t w i th t h e j u d g m e n t o f th e C o n s t i tu t io n a l Court. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. T h e n w h a t I n e e d to p u t t o y o u is w h a t t h e f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t h i m s e l f s a i d in r e l a t i o n to t h a t m a t t e r. I f Page 55 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 y o u g o t o d iv i d e r E E 3 , i n t h e fi l e in fr o n t o f y o u , t h a t ’s Ex h i b it E E 3 a t p a g e s 1 4 6 to 1 4 7 y o u w il l s e e t h e r e t h e v e r s i o n o f t h e fo r m e r Pr e s id e n t. N o w t h is t i m e w e r e fe r r i n g t o t h e p a g e s m a r k e d M S O N o n th e t o p r i g h th a n d c o r n e r. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: What page? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : CHAIRPERSON: P a g e 1 4 6 C h a ir. Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 Ye s C h a ir. If you look at paragraph 5.5 please Mr Nxasana. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s I s e e . Yo u s e e t h e r e t h a t th e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t s a y s , - p e r h a p s I s h o u l d ju s t p l a c e o n r e c o r d C h a ir th a t th is is t h e a n s w e r i n g a ffi d a v i t o f t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t in t h e H i g h C o u r t G a u t e n g L o c a l D i v is i o n t h a t a p p e a r s a s th e t i tl e p a g e o f Ex h ib i t E E 3 . CHAIRPERSON: A n d I t h i n k y o u m a y a ls o h a v e t o s a y t h a t i t is h is a n s w e r i n g a ffi d a v i t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : CHAIRPERSON: 20 I n t h e c o r r u p ti o n w a tc h c a s e . Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C h a ir t h a t a p p e a r s o n p a g e 142. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s t o t h e a ff id a v i t o f D a v i d L e w is a n d - M r D a v id L e w is a n d M is s N i c o le Fr it z b e c a u s e t h e r e is a n o th e r a n s w e r in g a ffi d a v i t b y h i m i n r e la t io n to , I th i n k C A S A C i n t h is … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s C h a ir. Page 56 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o if w e m a y g o b a c k t h e n t o p a g e 1 4 6 p a r a g r a p h 5 . 5 th e r e th e fo r m e r P r e s id e n t s a y s , “ D u r i n g t h e p e r i o d A u g u s t 2 0 1 3 to 9 M a y 2 0 1 5 N x a s a n a a n d I h a d v a r i o u s o n e - o n - o n e v e r b a l d is c u s s io n s r e g a r d i n g th e d is c o r d th a t e x is t e d in t h e N a t io n a l P r o s e c u ti n g A u t h o r i ty e s p e c i a l ly a s b e t w e e n N x a s a n a a n d th e s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t ” , D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t o n th a t s t a te m e n t? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXA SANA: 10 Ye s C h a ir, C h a ir f ir s tl y t h is c a n n o t b e c o r r e c t C h a ir f o r t h e s i m p l e r e a s o n t h a t i n A u g u s t 2 0 1 3 I w a s n o t a t t h e N PA , m y a p p o i n te d – I w a s o n ly a p p o i n te d a t t h e e n d o f A u g u s t 2 0 1 3 b u t w i t h e ffe c t f r o m 1 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 3 , th e n th a t A u g u s t 2 0 1 3 is w r o n g … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: I t m u s t b e – m a y b e it w a s – m a y b e i t ’s a n e r r o r i n t e r m s o f th e y e a r m a y b e i t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n 2 0 1 4 ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: M a y b e i t’s a n e r r o r i n t e r m s o f t h e y e a r y e s , b u t C h a ir w e d i d n ’ t h a v e t h e s e d is c u s s i o n s r e g a r d in g t h e d is c o r d t h a t e x is t e d i n th e N a ta t io n P r o s e c u t in g A u t h o r i ty, s p e c i a lly b e t w e e n m y s e l f a n d t h e s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t . 20 Th e r e w a s n o d is c o r d b e t w e e n m e a n d t h e s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t , t h e p r o b l e m t h a t I h a d w a s w i th t w o p e r s o n s , t h a t w a s A d v o c a t e J ib a a n d A d v o c a t e M a g w e b e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s I - n o w y o u , a r e y o u d e a li n g w it h th a t o n t h e a s s u m p t io n t h a t t h e f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t , i n t h a t p a r a g r a p h w a s – m a y h a v e b e e n r e f e r r in g t o th e p e r i o d b e t w e e n A u g u s t 2 0 1 4 t o M a y 2 0 1 5 , y o u a r e s a y i n g if t h a t ’s th e p e r io d y o u ’r e r e f e r r i n g to th is is w h a t y o u Page 57 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 can say? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o y o u s a y i n g t h e r e w e r e n o – y o u h a d n o p r o b l e m s w i th a n y b o d y i n t h e N PA i n c l u d i n g s e n io r m a n a g e m e n t o t h e r t h a n t w o p e o p le o n ly t h a t y o u h a v e m e n ti o n e d ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s b u t to p u t i t c o r r e c t ly t h e y – th e s e t w o h a d t h e p r o b l e m . CHAIRPERSON: With you? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : W it h m e . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A: Because they undermined m y a u t h o r i ty. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Paragraph 5 – may I continue C h a ir ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P a r a g r a p h 5 . 6 r e a d s : “ T h e d is c o r d w a s s o p r o n o u n c e d th a t t h e s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t w a s d iv id e d , t h e N a t io n a l P r o s e c u ti n g 20 A u t h o r i ty w a s d e s ta b ili s e d a n d h a e m o r r h a g i n g . The ill u m i n g i n q u ir y in t o t h e f i tn e s s to h o l d o ffi c e o f N x a s a n a a l s o c o n tr i b u te d to t h i s d is c o r d . T h i s – t h e in q u ir y o ffe r e d s o m e o f th e s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t a s a d d it i o n a l p l a t f o r m t o q u e s ti o n t h e a u th o r i t y o f Mr Nxasana.” Page 58 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 Is th a t a f a ir r e fl e c t i o n o f w h a t w a s o c c u r r in g u n d e r y o u r w a tc h a t th e ti m e ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A g a i n C h a ir i t is n o t a f a ir r e fl e c t io n o f w h a t w a s o c c u r r i n g . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t d o y o u s a y ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : C h a i r e v e r y th in g w a s w e ll w i t h th e s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t a n d I e x c e p t fo r – e x c e p t fo r t h e s e – f o r A d v o c a t e J ib a a n d M w r e b i w h o w e r e p u l li n g i n t h e w r o n g d i r e c t i o n a n d I – w e d id n o t d is c u s s a l l t h e s e – w h a t t h e Pr e s i d e n t is s a y in g h e r e i n 10 p a r a g r a p h 5 . 5 . B e c a u s e e v e r y ti m e I – I r a is e d t h e is s u e t h a t I k n o w t h a t i t is t h e s e tw o w h o a r e r u n n i n g t h e c a m p a i g n o f d is c r e d i ti n g m e a n d d o i n g a l l o f t h i s t h a t is a l l th a t I w o u ld – b u t t h e N PA s e n io r m a n a g e m e n t a t n o s t a g e w a s u n d e r my w a tc h w a s – a t n o s t a g e w a s i t d iv i d e d . CHAIRPERSON: S o is y o u r e v i d e n c e th a t y o u n e v e r h a d a n y d is c u s s io n s w i t h t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t r e l a ti n g t o w h a t h e c a ll s t h e d is c o r d t h a t e x is te d i n th e N PA e s p e c i a l l y b e t w e e n N x a s a n a a n d th e senior management and what you say is that whatever discussions there were between the two of you that is yourself and the former 20 P r e s i d e n t r e la t e d to y o u r c o m p l a in ts t h a t A d v o c a t e J ib a a n d A d v o c a t e M w r e b i w e r e h a d a p r o b le m w i th y o u a n d w e r e d o i n g c e r ta in t h i n g s ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Our discussion with the P r e s i d e n t w a s a lw a y s a r o u n d t h e is s u e o f m e h a v i n g to v a c a t e o ff ic e Page 59 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 a n d I w o u l d a lw a y s in s is t t h a t t h e r e is n o r e a s o n f o r m e t o v a c a t e o ffi c e a n d I w o u l d t h e n te ll h i m t h a t I m e a n th e o n ly p e o p l e – th e th in g th a t I w a s s u p p o s e d t o d o w a s t o i n s ti t u te a – I fu r n is h e d h i m w it h th e in f o r m a ti o n e v id e n c e a b o u t J i b a a n d M w r e b i a n d h e h a s to i n s ti t u te d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g a g a i n s t th e m . T h a t is a l l. CHAIRPERSON: I a m j u s t g o i n g t o a s k a q u e s ti o n th a t i s n o t r e a ll y a b o u t t h i s b u t I d o n o t w a n t t o fo r g e t it a n d I m a y h a v e a s k e d it p r e v i o u s ly. Yo u k n o w t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t s a i d y o u m a d e a r e q u e s t t o h i m t h a t y o u b e a l lo w e d to v a c a te t h e o ffi c e a n d y o u h a v e s a i d y o u 10 never made such a request. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. Now if you have never made such a request w h o w a s t h e fi r s t p e r s o n w h o b r o u g h t t h e i d e a th a t y o u – w h o m e n ti o n e d th e i d e a th a t y o u m u s t v a c a t e o ff ic e a s f a r a s y o u r e c a l l? W h o d id t h a t c o m e fr o m ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h e fir s t p e r s o n C h a ir w a s f o r m e r M i n i s t e r o f J u s t ic e a n d C o n s t i tu t io n a l D e v e l o p m e n t . I t w a s Mr Radebe. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Mr Radebe. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER N XASANA: And I have – I have been a b l e t o l o c a t e t h e l e t t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e l e t te r ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h e l e t t e r th a t I – I w r o t e Page 60 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 h i m . T h a t w a s o n t h e e v e n i n g o n th e 2 1 s t M a y 2 0 1 4 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: When I met with him at his o ffic e s in P r e t o r ia . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A n d t o g e t h e r w it h th e th e n D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l o f J u s ti c e M s S in d a n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h e n t h e n e x t d a y th e 2 2 n d 10 M a y I t h e n r e c o r d e d th e d is c u s s i o n s t h a t w e h a d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A t th a t m e e t i n g a n d I emailed – I have proof of email. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: And he never responded. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : B u t – ja . C H A I R P E R S O N : I s t h a t s o m e t h in g t h a t y o u h a v e g iv e n t o M r P r e t o r i u s t h a t w e w i ll g o t o i n d u e c o u r s e ? 20 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I w a s g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h i t C h a i r C H A I R P E R S O N : W e c a n d e a l w it h i t la t e r. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t p e r h a p s n o w i s c o n v e n i e n t. CHAIRPERSON: If you… A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I f y o u w o u l d g o t o p a g e 3 3 0 . Page 61 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 C H A I R P E R S O N : I f i t i s c o n v e n i e n t i t is o k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O f t h e s u p p le m e n t a r y b u n d l e handed up this morning, Bundle EE6. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I t is p a g e ? C H A I R P E R S O N : P a g e n u m b e r M r Pr e to r i u s ? P a g e N u m b e r ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 3 3 0 . CHAIRPERSON: 330. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D o y o u h a v e i t ? 10 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I have got it ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : Th a t is a c o v e r in g e m a il message. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : What is the document that appears on page 331? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I t i s a – d a te d 2 2 M a y 2 0 1 4 o n th e l e t t e r h e a d o f th e o ff ic e o f t h e N a ti o n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u t io n s . A l e tt e r a d d r e s s e d t o M i n is t e r R a d e b e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 20 Is t h a t t h e l e t t e r y o u h a v e j u s t r e fe r r e d t o i n y o u r e v id e n c e ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . I t r e f e r s t o a m e e t in g b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d th e M i n is t e r. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a t r e f e r e n c e is in p a r a g r a p h 3 . Page 62 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : A n d c e r ta i n d i s c u s s i o n s t o o k p l a c e i n r e l a ti o n t o y o u r s e c u r i ty c l e a r a n c e a p p l ic a ti o n ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d y o u p l a c e c e r t a in m a t t e r s o n r e c o r d i n p a r a g r a p h 6 r e la t in g to w h a t y o u t o l d t h e M in is t e r ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t h e n in p a r a g r a p h 7 w h a t d i d y o u t e l l t h e M i n i s te r t h e r e t h a t y o u r e c o r d e d in t h is le t t e r ? 10 Paragraph 7 on page 332. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I s a y I – C h a ir I s a id h e r e . “ I d i d p o i n t o u t th a t I k n o w t h e p e o p l e w h o a r e b e h in d t h is s m e a r c a m p a ig n w h o g o a b o u t b r a g g i n g a n d b o a s t i n g t h a t t h e y w i ll d o e v e r y t h i n g i n th e i r power to bring me down. I a ls o p o i n t e d o u t t h a t t h e s e p e o p l e m a k e s u r e th a t t h e y d r o p y o u r n a m e a n d I a m t o l d th a t t h e y h a v e a d ir e c t a c c e s s t o y o u a n d t h e y c o m m u n ic a te w i th y o u b e h i n d m y b a c k . I k n o w t h e y h a v e b e e n p e d d l in g l ie s a b o u t m e w h ic h I 20 m e n ti o n e d to y o u l a s t n i g h t . ” A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Is t h a t w h a t y o u to ld t h e M i n is t e r ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W o u l d y o u t h e n g o t o p a r a g r a p h 9 p le a s e o n p a g e 3 3 3 . Page 63 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. ADV PA U L JOSEPH P R E TO R I U S SC: What occurred in the c o n v e r s a ti o n b e tw e e n y o u r s e l f a n d t h e M i n is te r a s r e c o r d e d h e r e ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : C h a i r I s a id h e r e . “ I c o n f ir m t h a t t h e r e w a s s o m e m i s u n d e r s t a n d in g w h e n I s a i d I c a n n o t r e s is t w h e n y o u s u g g e s t e d t o m e t h a t I s h o u l d c o n s id e r s te p p i n g d o w n fr o m m y p o s i ti o n u n t il I e x p l a i n e d t h a t I m e a n t t h a t a s y o u w e r e t e l li n g m e I h a v e n o t h i n g to s a y i f I a m f ir e d s in c e I d id n o t a p p l y f o r t h e j o b b u t I w a s a p p r o a c h e d 10 w h il s t I w a s p r a c t ic in g i n D u r b a n . ” A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h o fir s t r a is e d t h e is s u e a s y o u p u t it h e r e o f s t e p p i n g d o w n ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t w a s M i n is t e r R a d e b e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: And the… A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d w h a t w a s … M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A n d t h e – a n d th e D G . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d w h a t w a s y o u r r e s p o n s e to 20 t h a t s ta t e m e n t b y M i n is te r R a d e b e th a t y o u s h o u ld c o n s i d e r s t e p p i n g down? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER N XASA NA: C h a ir I t h in k I s a i d I c a n n o t r e s i s t a n d t h e n I e x p la i n e d to h i m t h a t w h e n – if t h a t i s t h e c a s e I w il l h a v e to b e f ir e d b e c a u s e I w i ll n o t s t e p d o w n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : R ig h t. A n d t h e n in p a r a g r a p h 1 0 Page 64 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 w o u ld y o u j u s t te ll t h e C h a ir w h a t tr a n s p ir e d a t th e m e e ti n g ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Th e n t h e M in is t e r R a d e b e t h e n t o ld m e t h a t h e – t h a t it g o i n g to b e a p r o c e s s s i n c e t h e P r e s i d e n t w i ll h a v e t o a p p o in t a c o m m i s s i o n o f in q u ir y a n d h e a s k e d m e i f I w a n t e d t o s e e t h a t h a p p e n i n g . M y r e s p o n s e – my r e s p o n s e t o h i m w a s t h a t i f th a t is t h e p r o c e d u r e t h e n i t m e a n s i t w o u l d h a v e to b e f o l lo w e d a s I b e li e v e t h a t I a m a fi t a n d p r o p e r p e r s o n t o h o l d t h i s p o s i t io n . I m a d e i t v e r y c le a r w h ic h I r e it e r a t e – I s a i d I r e i t e r a t e t h e n t h e n e x t d a y w h e n I w r o t e h i m t h e l e t te r. T h a t I a m n o t g o in g t o r e s i g n b e c a u s e o f 10 t h e s e f a ls e a l le g a ti o n s a g a i n s t m e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o b o t h a t t h e m e e t in g a n i n t h i s le t t e r d a t e d t h e 2 2 n d M a y 2 0 1 4 y o u s ta t e d t h a t y o u w o u l d n o t r e s ig n M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: D id th e Mi n is t e r e v e r r e s p o n d to th is l e tt e r a n d d is p u te d y o u r r e c o r d a l o f w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d i n th e m e e ti n g b e t w e e n y o u , h i m a n d th e th e n D G ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : H e d i d n o t C h a ir. H e d i d n o t r e s p o n d e v e n t o t h is d a y. B u t I t h i n k i n t h e fi r s t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e fr o m th e Pr e s i d e n t w h e r e h e w a s a s k in g m e t o r e s p o n d t o c e r ta in 20 q u e s t io n s o r a l le g a ti o n s le v e ll e d a g a in s t m e I th in k h i s fir s t – th e f ir s t p a r a g r a p h o f h i s l e tt e r w h e r e h e r e fe r r e d t o t h e – to – I h a d w r i t t e n a le t t e r t o h i m i f I a m n o t m i s t a k e n a s k i n g t o s e e h i m a n d a d v is i n g h i m t h a t I h a d t o r e s o r t to in s t i tu t in g t o a p l a n – t o i n s ti t u ti n g l e g a l a c t io n in t e r d ic t in g h i m f r o m s u s p e n d i n g m e . A n d I p o i n te d o u t to h i m t h a t th e m a t t e r w a s in c o u r t t h e n e x t d a y b u t I a m s t il l o p e n t o d is c u s s i o n . A n d Page 65 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 I t h i n k i n h is r e s p o n s e h e m a d e r e f e r e n c e t o t h e u t t e r a n c e s th a t I h a d m a d e a b o u t t h e M i n i s te r t h e s e a r e t h e u t te r a n c e s I t h in k th a t h e r e fe r r e d t o b u t n o t t h e M in is t e r. I t c a m e – t h e r e s p o n s e c a m e fr o m t h e P r e s i d e n t t h a t h e r e s e r v e d h i s r i g h ts a n d h e w il l d e a l w i t h a l l o f t h a t a t a p r o p e r s ta g e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. O k a y. I k n o w Mr P r e t o r i u s I a s k e d a q u e s ti o n t h a t t o o k u s o n a d e t o u r w h i le y o u w e r e o n a c e r t a in p a t h . F e e l fr e e to g o b a c k t o t h e p a th . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : L e t u s g o b a c k t h e n to p a g e 1 4 6 p a r a g r a p h 5 .7 w e a r e b a c k a t t h e a ffi d a v it . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O f t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t . CHAIRPERSON: a g a in . O r m a y b e b e fo r e y o u d o s o M r P r e t o r iu s I a m s o r r y M r N x a s a n a y o u h a v e s a id t h a t t h e f ir s t p e r s o n to t a lk t o y o u a b o u t v a c a t i n g o ffi c e w a s t h e fo r m e r M in is t e r, M i n i s te r R a d a b e . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d a n y – d i d a n y o f t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s a d v i s o r s th a t y o u 20 w e r e d e a li n g w i t h i n r e g a r d to t h i s m a tt e r ta lk o n t h e b a s is o f y o u v a c a ti n g t h e o ff ic e d u r i n g t h e d is c u s s i o n th a t h a p p e n e d i n t h e l a t te r p a r t o f 2 0 1 4 a n d t h e f ir s t h a lf o f 2 0 1 5 ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA: C h a ir ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r ? Page 66 of 216 If we may come back 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: No, no if you can ask the q u e s t io n a g a in ? C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I a m a s k i n g y o u . Yo u h a v e a lr e a d y t o ld m e w h o c a m e u p w it h th e i d e a o f y o u v a c a t in g o ffic e f o r t h e fi r s t t i m e . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s CHAIRPERSON: W h o n e x t t a lk e d a b o u t y o u v a c a ti n g o ffi c e i n – i n r e g a r d t o w h a t c u l m in a t e d in t h e s e t tl e m e n t ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Oh. C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e y o u s a i d y o u n e v e r – y o u n e v e r r e q u e s te d t o 10 v a c a t e o ff ic e . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . I t w a s t h e P r e s id e n t b e c a u s e – it w a s t h e P r e s i d e n t w h e n h e s e n t m e th o s e – th a t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e C h a ir. A n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A: And before him I think I h a d t e s ti f ie d p r e v io u s ly t h a t I h a d a v e r y s h o r t m e e ti n g w i t h Mr H u ll e y h e r e in S a n d t o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A: 20 W h o is th e o n e w h o t h e n b r o k e t h e n e w s to m e t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t h a s ta k e n a d e c is i o n to in s t i tu t e a c o m m i s s io n o f i n q u i r y ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I u n d e r s ta n d t h e i d e a o f y o u b e i n g to ld th a t t h e P r e s i d e n t h a d d e c i d e d to i n s t it u t e a n i n q u i r y a n d I u n d e r s t a n d t h e le t t e r fr o m t h e Pr e s i d e n t a d v is i n g y o u t h a t h e h a d d e c id e d to i n s ti t u te a n in q u ir y. O f c o u r s e a n i n q u i r y c o u l d – w o u l d n o t n e c e s s a r il y le a d t o y o u Page 67 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 v a c a ti n g t h e o ffi c e a s s u c h . Yo u c o u l d b e – h e c o u l d h a v e f o u n d t h a t y o u w e r e fi t t o h o ld o ffi c e a n d i t w o u l d n o t in t h a t e v e n t r e c o m m e n d t h a t y o u s h o u l d v a c a t e t h e o ffi c e a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i t io n . A l l I a m lo o k in g a t a t t h is s t a g e i s w h e th e r a n y b o d y e ls e o t h e r t h a n M i n i s te r R a d e b e s p o k e a b o u t y o u v a c a ti n g o ff i c e a n d w h o r e a l ly s t a r te d s p e a k i n g t o y o u a b o u t y o u v a c a t in g o ffic e ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: N o th e n it w a s – i t w a s M i n is t e r R a d e b e w h o s t a r t e d t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a a n d n o b o d y e ls e ta lk e d a b o u t t h a t u n t il w h e n ? 10 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: The President. C H A I R P E R S O N : U n ti l t h e n e g o t ia t io n s s t a r t e d ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: B u t w h e n t h e n e g o ti a ti o n s t a r t e d w h o in tr o d u c e d t h e id e a o f y o u v a c a ti n g o ff ic e o r w a s t h e d is c u s s io n b a s e d o n t h e fa c t t h a t y o u t h r o u g h y o u r a tt o r n e y s h a d i n d i c a t e d t h a t t h e o n ly t i m e y o u c o u l d c o n s i d e r s t e p p i n g d o w n w o u l d b e if y o u w e r e to b e p a i d f o r t h e r e s t o f y o u r p e r io d o f a p p o in t m e n t . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A: Oh now I understand you C h a ir. N o C h a ir i t w a s a l w a y s th e Pr e s i d e n t ‘s i n s is t e n c e t h a t I s h o u ld 20 s t e p d o w n a n d I h a d a lw a y s r e f u s e d to s te p d o w n . A n d t o a p o in t t h e n d u r i n g th o s e d is c u s s i o n s – t o a p o i n t t h a t I – I th e n s a id t o h i m t h e o n ly ti m e – b e c a u s e I h a v e d o n e n o t h in g w r o n g i f y o u w a n t m e t o r e s i g n a s t h e n y o u m u s t b e p r e p a r e d t o p a y m e f o r t h e r e m a in d e r o f m y c o n t r a c t. CHAIRPERSON: D o y o u r e c a ll a r o u n d a b o u t w h e n i t w a s t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t b r o u g h t u p t h e is s u e o f y o u h a v i n g t o v a c a t e o ffi c e o r i s th a t Page 68 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 d i ff ic u l t to r e m e m b e r ? MR MXO LISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A: I t is d i ff ic u l t C h a ir b u t I t h i n k m y r e c o ll e c t io n I r e m e m b e r t h a t y e a r b e c a u s e I h a d t o th i n k a b o u t t h is m a t te r. I th i n k h e a ls o h a d a m e e ti n g w it h t h e P r e s id e n t . I th i n k w a s i t i n – n o I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r – I [ in d i s t in c t ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : S t i ll i n 2 0 1 4 o r o n ly in 2 0 1 5 ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : J a 2 0 1 4 I t h i n k 2 0 1 4 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I do not know when. Early 10 2 0 1 4 i f I a m n o t m is ta k e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t … MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I th i n k th a t w a s th e – I t h i n k t h a t w a s t h e o n ly t i m e b u t I t h i n k w h a t w il l a s s is t m e is t h e t i m e w h e n I b r o u g h t a n a p p li c a t io n b e c a u s e I o n l y – I w a s o n ly – I o n ly m a n a g e d to – t o m e e t w it h t h e Pr e s i d e n t a f t e r I h a d b r o u g h t t h e a p p lic a ti o n t o i n t e r d ic t h i m f r o m [ i n d is ti n c t ] . CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s b e c a u s e I t h i n k y o u d i d t e s t if y th a t b e f o r e t h a t you had tried for a number of … M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : E x a c t ly. CHAIRPERSON: On a number of occasions to seek an appointment w i t h h i m b u t y o u – y o u w e r e n o t g e t t in g a n a p p o i n t m e n t . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e n y o u b r o u g h t a n a p p li c a t io n fo r a n o r d e r i n Page 69 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 t h e h ig h c o u r t f o r a n o r d e r c o m p e ll in g h i m t o g iv e y o u f u r t h e r p a r t ic u l a r s i n r e la t io n t o t h e c o m p l a i n ts a n d – t h e n th e r e w a s a m e e ti n g – t h e n a m e e ti n g t o o k p l a c e a f te r t h a t. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Between the two of youl. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h e th e r i t w a s a t t h a t fir s t m e e t in g a f t e r y o u b r o u g h t t h a t a p p l ic a ti o n o r s u b s e q u e n tl y t h a t h e b r o u g h t u p t h e is s u e o f y o u v a c a ti n g o ff ic e . 10 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA: Ye s C h a ir. I cannot r e m e m b e r b u t C h a ir I – w h a t I c o u ld r e c a l l – I c a n r e c a ll is a f t e r I h a d fi n a l ly g o t t h e c h a n c e t o m e e t w it h h i m I e x p l a i n e d t o h i m m y v ie w s a b o u t a l l o f t h e a ll e g a t io n s a n d a l l w h a t – a l l o f w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g . I explained to him that this was just a smear campaign against me and I b r o u g h t i t to h i s a t t e n t i o n t h a t I h a d in f o r ma t io n a b o u t w h a t J i b a h a d in s t r u c t e d p e o p l e – J i b a a n d M w r e b i h a d i n s tr u c t e d p e o p l e to d o in m y h o m e t o w n t o tr y a n d fi n d t h a t a g a in s t m e . B u t w h a t I c a n n o t r e c a ll i s w h e t h e r t h e fir s t m e e t in g h e t h e n r a is e d t h a t is s u e . B u t i f th e C h a ir p e r s o n r e c a l ls i n m y p r e v i o u s t e s t i m o n y I s a id t h a t t o m e i t 20 appeared – it appeared th a t the President u n d e r s to o d or was s a ti s f i e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r e x p l a n a ti o n . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : W it h m y e x p la n a ti o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXO LISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA: Page 70 of 216 A n d I w a s u n d e r th e 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 i m p r e s s io n t h a t h e w a s g o i n g to – t o a n n o u n c e t h a t h e i s n o l o n g e r p r o c e e d i n g w i th t h e … C H A I R P E R S O N : I n q u ir y. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : W i th th e i n q u ir y a f t e r I h a d g iv e n h i m a l l th e i n fo r m a ti o n a n d t h e e x p la n a t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXA SANA: B u t th e n to m y s u r p r is e t h e n h e t h e n in s is t e d t h a t n o [i n d is t in c t ] y o u h a v e to – y o u h a v e t o le a v e l e t u s t a l k a b o u t t h e s e t tl e m e n t . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I t h in k y o u s a i d t h a t – y o u s a i d s o m e th i n g t o th e e ffe c t t h a t w h e n e v e r – w h e n y o u m e t w i t h h i m I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r o n t h e o n e o c c a s i o n o r s u b s e q u e n t ly b u t w h e n y o u e x p la i n e d e v e r y t h i n g to h i m h e s e e m e d t o h a v e n o p r o b l e m w i t h t h e e x p la n a ti o n y o u g a v e h i m . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: But you said that he seemed to be under some other pressure. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Pr e s s u r e y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e th e n s u b s e q u e n tl y h e w o u ld a c t i n a m a n n e r t h a t w a s n o t in a c c o r d a n c e w it h h o w y o u u n d e r s t o o d h i m t o r e c e iv e 20 y o u r e x p l a n a ti o n b e f o r e . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t – th a t is w h a t y o u s a i d . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: B u t y o u – y o u – i s y o u r e v id e n c e t h a t i t w a s d u r in g 2 0 1 4 t h a t h e r a is e d th e i s s u e o f y o u v a c a ti n g t h e o ffi c e ? Page 71 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : J u s t t o a s s is t i n th a t r e g a r d . A t p a g e 2 1 8 o f th e s u p p le m e n t a r y b u n d l e E E 6 i t a p p e a r s th a t y o u r r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s i n r e g a r d t o t h e s u s p e n s io n i s s u e a r e d a t e d t h e 1 s t August 2014. Page 218. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D o e s t h a t h e l p y o u i n r e l a t i o n to t h e ti m i n g o f t h e d i s c u s s io n s ? Yo u r a p p lic a ti o n … 10 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Would have been more or less a r o u n d t h is ti m e . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ar o u n d th is ti m e y e s C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : Ye s . T h e n i f w e c a n g o b a c k t o p a g e 1 4 6 p le a s e . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : Paragraph 5.7. T h is i s o n c e a g a in t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t ’s a ffi d a v i t . H e s a y s : “ S e c t i o n 1 2 . 8 o f t h e N PA A c t p r o v id e s th a t t h e N D P P 20 m a y r e q u e s t t o v a c a te h i s o r h e r o ff ic e f o r a n y r e a s o n w h ic h th e P r e s i d e n t d e e m s s u ffic i e n t. ” H e t h e n s a y s i n t h e n e x t s e n te n c e . “Nxasana made the request to me to vacate his o ffic e . ” Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? Page 72 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I t i s n o t c o r r e c t C h a ir. I did not have – never made any request. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : H e g o e s o n t o s a y : “ N x a s a n a m a d e i t p l a in t h a t th e d is c o r d i n t h e N PA la r g e l y r e s t e d o n t h e s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t n o t s h a r i n g h is s t r a t e g ic v ie w s a n d th e d is c i p l in a r y s t e p s o r c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s w h ic h h e i n t e n d e d ta k i n g a g a i n s t certain of the senior managers. T h is posited in tr a c t a b l e d is p u te s p a r a ly s i n g t h e p r o p e r f u n c t i o n in g 10 o f t h e N PA . ” D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t o n th e a c c u r a c y o f t h o s e s t a t e m e n t s ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA: C h a ir t h e s e – th e s e s t a te m e n ts a r e n o t c o r r e c t a n d I r e p e a t C h a ir t h a t I a t n o s t a g e a n d th e P r e s i d e n t h i s a d v i s o r s , th e M i n is te r s o f J u s t ic e b o t h R a d e b e a n d M a s u t h a if t h e y s t il l h a v e c o n s c i e n c e t h e y k n o w v e r y w e l l t h a t a t n o s t a g e d i d I m a k e a r e q u e s t t o v a c a t e o ff ic e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : T h e i s s u e o f t a k in g a c ti o n a g a in s t c e r ta in s e n i o r m a n a g e r s a n d y o u h a v e r e f e r r e d to t h e c o n d u c t o f M e s s r s J i b a a n d M w r e b i h o w c o u ld th a t h a v e b e e n r e s o lv e d o t h e r 20 t h a n th r o u g h y o u r r e s ig n a t i o n ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: C h a ir th a t is s u e c o u l d h a v e b e e n r e s o l v e d b y th e P r e s i d e n t h i m s e l f i n s ti t u ti n g a n i n q u ir y i n t o t h e ir fi t n e s s t o h o l d o ffi c e n o t m y r e s i g n a ti o n b e c a u s e w e k n o w t h a t e v e n a f t e r I h a d l e f t I m e a n t h e r e w a s a M o k g o r o In q u ir y. I m e a n it d i d n o t r e s o lv e t h e is s u e . I le f t b u t s t il l t h e r e w a s a n e e d to h o l d t h a t Page 73 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 in q u ir y. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll … MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER N XASANA: W h ic h w a s t h e M o k g o r o C o m m i s s i o n w h ic h w a s a p p o i n te d b y P r e s id e n t – t h e c u r r e n t Pr e s i d e n t Ramaphosa and not the – and not President Zuma himself. CHAIRPERSON: I n p a r a g r a p h 5 . 7 in t h e s e c o n d s e n t e n c e t h e f o r m e r President said: “Nxasana made the request to me to vacate his o ffic e . ” 10 W e h a v e d e a l t w i t h t h a t . Yo u s a i d y o u n e v e r m a d e s u c h a r e q u e s t b u t t h e n h e s a y s i n t h e n e x t s e n te n c e : “ N x a s a n a m a d e i t p l a in t h a t th e d is c o r d i n t h e N PA la r g e l y r e s t e d o n t h e s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t n o t s h a r i n g h is s t r a t e g ic v ie w s a n d th e d is c i p l in a r y s t e p s o r c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s w h ic h h e i n t e n d e d ta k i n g a g a i n s t certain of the senior managers.” D o y o u w a n t to d e a l s p e c i fi c a lly w i th t h e s t a t e m e n t t h a t y o u m a d e i t p l a i n t o h i m t h a t t h e d is c o r d i n th e N PA la r g e l y r e s te d o n t h e s e n io r m a n a g e m e n t n o t s h a r i n g y o u r s tr a t e g ic v ie w s ? 20 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Chair I never said that. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u n e v e r s a i d t h a t ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: No. I do not even know w h a t s tr a te g ic v ie w s t h e P r e s i d e n t is r e f e r r in g to . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . A n d th e n h e s a y s : “ A n d th e d i s c i p li n a r y s t e p s o r c r i mi n a l c h a r g e s w h ic h Page 74 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 h e in t e n d e d t a k in g a g a i n s t c e r t a i n o f t h e s e n i o r managers.” D o y o u w a n t to s a y a n y th i n g a b o u t t h a t? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: C h a ir e x c e p t f o r th e fa c t t h a t I h a d b r o u g h t i t t o t h e a t t e n t io n o f t h e P r e s i d e n t th a t th e – t h e le g a l o p i n io n t h a t I h a d r e c e iv e d fr o m Mr El ia s w a s t h a t h e r e c r i m in a l c h a r g e s h a d to b e i n s t it u t e d . O t h e r t h a n t h a t I – t h e r e is n o th in g th a t I s a i d t h a t m a y h a v e b e e n – th a t m a y h a v e p r e c i p it a t e d m e a s k in g h i m t o v a c a t e o ffic e . 10 I do not understand how that could have resolved the is s u e . CHAIRPERSON: I n r e g a r d t o th e l a s t s e n te n c e o f p a r a g r a p h 5 .7 d i d y o u s a y t o t h e Pr e s i d e n t a n y t h in g a l o n g t h e li n e s th a t t h e d i s p u t e s – t h a t th e s e w e r e i n tr a c t a b l e d i s p u t e s th a t w e r e p a r a ly s in g th e p r o p e r f u n c t i o n in g o f t h e N PA ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o C h a ir I d id n o t s a y t h a t. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d y o u h a v e g o n e a l it t le f u r th e r t o s a y a s I u n d e r s t a n d it M r N x a s a n a t h a t t h e d i s p u t e s a b o u t w h ic h t h e P r e s id e n t w a s ta lk in g t h e r e t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t w a s t a lk i n g 20 t h e r e w e r e th e y in tr a c t a b l e ? Wa s t h e r e a s o lu t io n ? I n r e la t io n to Messrs Jiba and Mwrebi. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA: C h a ir. There were no solutions. There was no solution I t h i n k t h e o n ly s o l u t i o n t o t h e p r o b le m s th a t I h a d b r o u g h t to th e a t t e n ti o n o f t h e P r e s i d e n t I h a d r e q u e s t e d h i m t o i n s ti t u te d is c ip li n a r y a c t i o n s a g a i n s t t h e m . T h a t w a s Page 75 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 g o i n g t o b e t h e s o l u t i o n a n d c o n s i d e r s u s p e n d in g t h e m p e n d i n g t h a t . A n d C h a ir w il l r e c a l l t h a t a t t h e t i m e I t h i n k th e r e w e r e – if m y m e m o r y s e r v e s m e w e l l A d v o c a te M w r e b i w a s f a c in g c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s o f d e f e a t i n g th e e n d s o f ju s tic e a n d i n ti m i d a ti o n . I th i n k a n d th e r e w e r e going to be criminal charges added against him. A t s o m e p o in t A d v o c a t e J ib a h e r s e l f w a s a ls o f a c i n g c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s . T h a t i s in t h e p u b lic d o m a i n . B u t d e s p i t e a ll o f t h a t t h e y r e m a i n e d in t h e o ff ic e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t . O n e g o e s t o p a r a g r a p h 5 .8 t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t s a y s i n t h a t p a r a g r a p h : 10 “I therefore deemed the reasons provided by N x a s a n a to g e th e r w i t h t h e p o s s ib il i ty o f a p r o tr a c t e d li ti g a t i o n a n d t h e h o ld in g o f th e i n q u ir y n o t t o b e i n the best i n t e r e s ts of the N a ti o n a l P r o s e c u ti n g A u t h o r i ty N x a s a n a a n d th e R e p u b l ic o f S o u t h A fr ic a t o b e s u ffic i e n t to a l l o w N x a s a n a t o v a c a t e o ffic e . ” D o y o u h a v e a c o m m e n t o n th a t ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A: C h a i r I s e e th a t w h e n w e fi n a l ly r e a c h s e tt l e m e n t w e w e r e q u o t e d p a r t o f t h is p a r a g r a p h “ t h e p r o t r a c t e d l i ti g a t io n ” s a v e f o r t h a t C h a ir I d e n y t h a t t h e – t h e r e a s o n s 20 t h a t h e r e li e s o n a r e t h e r e a s o n s th a t I f u r n is h e d h i m t h a t I m a d e a r e q u e s t t o v a c a t e o ff ic e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e l l a r e y o u i m p ly i n g t h a t y o u did make such a request? MR MXO LISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA: r e q u e s t t o v a c a t e o ff ic e . Page 76 of 216 I deny that I made a 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : Ye s . A n d t h e n i n p a r a g r a p h 5 . 9 the former President says: “ I t w a s p la i n t o m e t h a t N x a s a n a w a s n o lo n g e r w i ll in g t o c o n ti n u e a s t h e N D P P a n d t h e o n ly o u t s t a n d i n g is s u e r e m a i n e d t h e f i n a n c i a l a s p e c ts r e l a ti n g t o h is v a c a t in g h is o ffi c e . ” N o w l e t m e j u s t a s k y o u t w o q u e s ti o n s t h e r e i f I m a y a n d t h e n y o u c a n make a general comment. If y o u h a d w a n t e d t o v a c a t e y o u r o ffi c e t h r o u g h r e s i g n a ti o n h o w w o u l d y o u h a v e m a d e s u c h a r e q u e s t ? 10 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: C h a ir I w o u ld h a v e m a d e t h e r e q u e s t in w r i ti n g fi r s tl y a n d s e c o n d ly I w o u l d h a v e i n s is t e d - I w o u ld n o t h a v e in s is t e d i n b e in g p a i d t h e r e m a in d e r o f m y c o n tr a c t b il l b e c a u s e i t d o e s n o t m a k e s e n s e th a t I a m t h e o n e w h o w a n t s t o r e s ig n a n d o n th e o t h e r h a n d I a m m a k in g t h e d e m a n d t o b e p a i d . W h y s h o u l d I b e p a id ? C H A I R P E R S O N : To b e p a i d t h e w h o l e a m o u n t fo r … MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: The whole amount for … CHAIRPERSON: The balance of your contract, yes. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I w i ll n o t d o th a t C h a ir a n d 20 I d o n o t e v e n t h i n k t h e P r e s i d e n t w o u ld h a v e a g r e e d to t h a t h i m s e l f . N o t e v e n h i m w i t h t h e - w it h h is l e g a l a d v i s o r s I d o n o t th i n k t h e y w o u l d h a v e a g r e e d to t h a t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t w a s y o u r ju s ti fi c a t io n in y o u r o w n m in d f o r s a y i n g t h a t y o u w o u ld v a c a te o ffi c e o n ly if y o u w e r e p a i d fo r t h e f u l l te r m o f - f u l l te r m o f y o u r o ff ic e ? Page 77 of 216 What was your 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 r e a s o n f o r d o in g s o ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : M y - my r e a s o n C h a ir w a s t h a t I w a s o f th e v ie w t h a t I w a s - s i n c e th e P r e s i d e n t w a s t h e a p p o i n ti n g a u th o r i ty to m e it w a s a q u e s t io n o f a n e m p l o y e r w h o is b r e a c h in g t h e c o n tr a c t a n d i f h e is b r e a c h i n g t h e c o n tr a c t a n d h e w a n ts m e o u t o f m y jo b w i t h o u t m e h a v i n g d o n e a n y t h i n g . T h e n t h e c o n s e q u e n c e s m u s t - t h a t h e m u s t p a y fo r t h a t. I t is c o n s e q u e n t i a l . T h a t w a s my b a s i s f o r … C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - in o t h e r w o r d s w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g - w a s th a t 10 r e q u e s t b a s e d o n y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t if y o u a r e - if a n e m p lo y e e is e m p l o y e d f o r a fix e d t e r m c o n tr a c t … M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: I n y o u r c a s e it w a s 1 0 y e a r s a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i ti o n … M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e e m p l o y e e is a s k e d t o le a v e t h e e m p l o y o f th e e m p l o y e r b e f o r e t h e e n d o f t h a t p e r i o d - fi x e d t e r m a n d t h e r e is n o f a u l t o n t h e p a r t o f th e e m p l o y e e . T h e e m p l o y e e i s e n ti t le d t o b e p a i d f o r t h e b a l a n c e o f t h e c o n tr a c t p e r i o d . 20 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t - t h a t w a s - th a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a t w a s y o u r - th a t w a s b a s e d o n th a t u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f t h e l a w o n y o u r p a r t? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: And of course you are an attorney? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. Page 78 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a d p r a c tic e d f o r a l o n g ti m e ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A n d j u s t t o a d d C h a ir - p e r h a p s C h a ir j u s t to a d d b e c a u s e I s e e - I h a v e s e e n in t h e m e d i a i t is c a t e g o r is e d a s g o l d e n h a n d s h a k e . I m e a n t h e r e a r e m a n y n a m e s g i v e n t o i t. In t h e C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t J u s ti c e M a d l a n g a r e fe r r e d to t h e fa c t t h a t I w a s g iv e n a s tic k a n d a c a r r o t - a s t ic k a n d a c a r r o t - b u t C h a ir f o r m e i t b o ils d o w n to o n e t h i n g . T h e Pr e s i d e n t w h e n w e a r e n e g o ti a ti n g t h a t s e t tl e m e n t th e - I 10 a m v in d ic a t e d b y t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t th e c o u r t u s e d in c o m i n g to t h e c o n c l u s i o n t h a t I - a t n o s t a g e d i d I m a k e a r e q u e s t . A g a in I d id n o t p u t a n y b a r r e l o f a g u n a t a n y o n e t o - t o p a y m e t h a t - t h a t m o n e y. T h e r e w a s li ti g a ti o n g o i n g o n a n d b a s e d o n t h e l it i g a t io n a s w e ll a n d t h e f a c t t h a t I w a s l i te r a lly f ir e d b e f o r e w i t h n o - n o f a u l t o n my p a r t . C h a ir I - i t i s my v i e w t h a t I - I f e l t t h a t I w a s - I w a s e n ti tl e d t o d e fe n d my - m y r ig h ts a n d m y i n te r e s t s a s w e ll a s a - a s a h u m a n being. C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e I m u s t j u s t m e n ti o n t h is f o r w h a t i t is w o r t h . I 20 - for quite some time I did not understand the judgment of the C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t t o h a v e d e c i d e d - t o h a v e m a d e a n y fi n d i n g o r r e a c h e d a n y c o n c l u s io n a s t o w h e t h e r y o u m a d e t h e r e q u e s t th a t t h e P r e s i d e n t s a i d y o u h a d m a d e to h i m t o v a c a te o ffi c e . T h a t is t h e o n e p o i n t . T h e s e c o n d p o in t i s t h e r e i s a - a p a s s a g e t o w h ic h M r Pr e t o r i u s d id r e f e r y o u t o - a p a s s a g e t o w h i c h Page 79 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 M r Pr e to r i u s r e fe r r e d y o u i n th e j u d g m e n t o f t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n a l C o u r t w h ic h m a y b e c o n s t r u e d - a n d I p u t n o h i g h e r t h a n m a y b e - m a y b e c o n s tr u e d a s i m p l y i n g th a t i t w a s s a y i n g t h a t y o u m a y n e v e r m a k e t h a t request. T h a t is t h e p a s s a g e w h e r e t h e c o u r t s a i d t h a t y o u h a d t h r o u g h o u t th e n e g o ti a ti o n s m a d e it c l e a r t h a t y o u w e r e n o t p r e p a r e d to - y o u w e r e o n ly p r e p a r e d to r e s i g n i f y o u p a i d t h e w h o l e - f o r t h e balance of the - of the period of appointment. I f I r e c a ll it c o r r e c t ly. T h a t is th e p a s s a g e th a t w a s r e f e r r e d t o e a r l i e r … 10 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: B u t h a v i n g s a id t h a t I t h i n k a ls o I h a v e n o tic e d t h a t w h e n y o u l o o k a t th e ju d g m e n t i t d o e s s a y t h a t t h e m a t t e r w a s a r g u e d b e f o r e t h e C o n s t it u ti o n a l C o u r t o n t h e b a s is o f a n a c c e p t a n c e b y e v e r y b o d y c o n c e r n e d . T h a t i t w a s - it w a s a r g u e d o n t h e b a s is o r i f it w a s n o t a r g u e d o n t h e b a s is o f a r e q u e s t to v a c a t e o ff ic e i n te r m s o f S e c t io n 1 2 . I f I r e c a l l c o r r e c tl y. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: S o I j u s t m e n t i o n t h e s e th in g s b e c a u s e I a m n o t n e c e s s a r i ly s u r e t h a t it is c o r r e c t t o s a y t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n a l C o u r t m a d e 20 a fi n d i n g th a t y o u n e v e r m a d e t h e r e q u e s t b u t th e ju d g m e n t i s th e r e . O n e c a n lo o k a t i t a n d - a n d s o o n . I - I le a v e i t a t t h a t b u t i f y o u d o w a n t to s a y s o m e t h in g i n t e r m s o f y o u r o w n u n d e r s ta n d i n g . F e e l fr e e t o do so. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u d o w a n t t o s a y s o m e t h i n g o r n o t r e a l ly ? Page 80 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Oh Chair when my u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e j u d g m e n t i s t h a t t h e - b o t h t h e m a j o r i t y a s w e ll a s w e ll a s t h e m i n o r i ty j u d g m e n t f o u n d t h a t I d i d n o t m a k e a r e q u e s t . Th a t is my u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h e j u d g m e n t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Or r e a d in g of the ju d g m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: 10 T h e m a j o r i ty j u d g m e n t - t h a t is w h y C h a ir i n s t e a d o f c o m i n g t o t h e c o n c l u s i o n th a t I - i n s t e a d o f r e i n s t a ti n g m e b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r t h a t th e y r e v ie w e d a n d s e t a s i d e t h e - th e d e c is i o n - m y - t h e d e c is io n o f v a c a ti n g o ffic e . It was reviewed a n d s e t a s i d e a n d t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f A d v o c a t e A b r a h a ms w a s r e v ie w e d and set aside. T h e d e c is i o n t o p a y m e w a s a ls o r e v i e w e d a n d s e t a s i d e b u t t h e n t h e c o u r t - th e m a jo r i ty d e c is io n f a c e d n o w w i t h t h e - a - a d e c is i o n t o o r d e r m y r e i n s t a te m e n t d e c i d e d t o i n v o k e t h e p r o v is io n s o f t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n t h e j u s t a n d e q u it a b l e n e s s p r o v is i o n s . T h e n t h e y s a i d t h a t i t is n o t j u s t a n d e q u i t a b l e th a t I b e r e in s t a t e d in t h e p o s i t io n . 20 T h a t b e i n g in f lu e n c e d b y t h e f a c t t h a t i f I r e m e m b e r w e ll t h e y s a i d I w a s n o t e n t ir e ly w h o ll y in t h e w h o le e v e n t b e c a u s e I - I w a s a l s o p a r t o f a n u n l a w f u l s e t tl e m e n t - s o t o s a y - s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t . Th e n t h e y c r it ic is e d m e f o r b e i n g p a r t o f t h a t s i m p ly b e c a u s e I a m a n a tt o r n e y o f lo n g s t a n d in g b u t I w a s r e p r e s e n t e d a ls o a n d t h e Pr e s id e n t w a s a ls o r e p r e s e n te d . Page 81 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 T h e r e w e r e l e g a l a d v is o r s b u t I a l s o d o n o t w a n t to s a y m u c h a b o u t t h e - th e ir j u d g m e n t . S a v e t o s a y t h a t I d i s a g r e e w it h i t b u t I - I respect it. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I w a s ju s t - a s y o u w e r e t a lk in g I w a s lis t e n i n g b u t I w a s ju s t l o o k i n g f o r th e p a r t w h e r e I u n d e r s to o d th e c o u r t t o b e s a y in g t h a t t h e m a t te r w a s b e i n g a r g u e d - w a s n o t b e i n g a r g u e d o n th e b a s is o f th e - t h e s e c t i o n t h a t r e q u ir e d t h e r e q u e s t b u t i t is fi n e . O n e c a n a lw a y s f in d i t s o m e o t h e r ti m e b u t y o u - y o u h a v e h a d a c h a n c e t o p u t o n r e c o r d y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f w h a t i t s a y s ? 10 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ye s M r Pr e t o r iu s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: B u t C h a ir p e r h a p s t o s a y o n e th i n g I t h in k i t is a ls o v e r y i m p o r ta n t C h a ir t o r e m e m b e r I h e a r d C h a ir - t h e C h a ir s a y i n g th a t a t t h e i n q u ir y t h e fa c t th a t t h e i n q u ir y w a s e s t a b li s h e d . I f I w a s e x o n e r a t e d a s I s t r o n g ly b e li e v e d a n d f e lt t h a t I w a s g o i n g to b e e x o n e r a t e d a t th e C o m m is s i o n o f In q u ir y t h a t a t th e ti m e o n e c a n n o t s a y w i t h a ll c e r t a i n ty t h a t i f I w a s e x o n e r a te d a t t h e in q u ir y t h e n I w o u l d h a v e b e e n r e i n s t a te d w i t h my p o s i t io n . I 20 say that because of what had happened to A d v o c a t e Vu s i P ik o l i. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I t i s p u b li c k n o w l e d g e . W e k n o w t h a t h e w a s s u b j e c t e d t o th e C o m m i s s io n o f I n q u ir y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : H e w a s e x o n e r a te d … Page 82 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : B u t w h a t h a p p e n e d to h i m ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I found myself having to fi g h t t h a t b e c a u s e t h e y w a n te d h i m o u t a n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : U l ti m a t e ly … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: 10 He - he was out of the o ffic e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I mean the powers that be if t h e y w ie l d p o l i tic a l p o w e r … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A n d f in a n c i a l m u s c le … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: T h e y d o e v e r y t h i n g w i th i n t h e ir p o w e r … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : To d r a in y o u u p t o t h e la s t energy then … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: And I expected the courts t o t a k e th a t i n to c o n s id e r a ti o n a s w e l l … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 83 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: B u t u n fo r tu n a t e ly t h e y d i d n o t . T h a t is m y c o m m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - s o - w e l l w h a t I s a i d w a s th a t th e f a c t t h a t t h e r e w a s a n in q u ir y i n s ti t u t e d w a s n o t a b a s is fo r a n y b o d y t o t h i n k t h a t n e c e s s a r i ly t h e in q u ir y w o u l d r e a c h a c o n c lu s i o n t h a t w o u ld r e q u ir e y o u t o v a c a t e o ff ic e … MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t th e p o i n t y o u a r e m a k in g is th e r e w a s a p r e c e d e n t … 10 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I n te r ms o f w h ic h a n N D P P w h o h a d b e e n e x o n e r a t e d b y a n in q u ir y s i m i la r t o y o u r s … M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s n e v e r th e le s s d is m is s e d … M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : R e m o v e d fr o m o ffi c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : R e m o v e d fr o m o ffic e … M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e r e fo r e w h e n w e l o o k a t th e i n q u ir y t h a t y o u w e r e fa c i n g w e m u s t r e m e m b e r t h a t t h e r e w a s th is p r e c e d e n t o f w h ic h 20 you were aware. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir w h ic h I a ls o r a is e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : In m y p a p e r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 84 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C h a ir in r e l a ti o n t o t h e is s u e y o u h a v e j u s t r a i s e d m a y I r e f e r y o u t o p a r a g r a p h 2 4 o f th e j u d g m e n t o n p a g e 1 0 0 b u t t h a t s t a te m e n t o f J u s t ic e M a d l a n g a s h o u ld b e r e a d i n th e c o n te x t o f w h a t i s s a i d a t p a r a g r a p h 1 2 o n p a g e 9 5 a n d p a r a g r a p h 2 5 on page 100. C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y th e s t a te m e n t is i n p a r a g r a p h ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 2 4 … 10 CHAIRPERSON: 24. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O n p a g e 1 0 0 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I th i n k th a t is t h e s t a te m e n t I w a s lo o k in g f o r. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : C r u c i a l ly h e s a y s a t p a r a g r a p h 2 4 : “ T h e h e a r i n g b e f o r e u s - a t t h e h e a r in g b e f o r e u s i t w a s n o l o n g e r i n d is p u t e th a t Mr N x a s a n a h a d v a c a t e d o ffi c e … ” A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : H a d n o t v a c a te d . CHAIRPERSON: 20 “ … h a d n o t v a c a t e d o ffic e i n t e r m s o f S e c t io n 1 2 ( 8 ) . Th e c o n t e s t c o n c e r n e d t h e q u e s ti o n w h e t h e r t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h h e v a c a t e d o ffic e w a s la w fu l . T h e a p p li c a n ts a r g u e d t h a t Mr N x a s a n a v a c a t e d o ffi c e in a m a n n e r t h a t w a s a t o d d s w i t h th e C o n s t i tu t io n a n d t h e l a w. Advocate Abrahams and t h e N PA a r g u e d t h a t a n N D P P i s n o t p r e c l u d e d fr o m Page 85 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 v a c a ti n g o ff ic e v o l u n t a r ily o th e r w is e t h a n u n d e r S e c t io n 1 2 ( 8 ) . a c c e p te d that Mr N x a s a n a o n th e o t h e r h a n d his v a c a t io n of o ffic e was not c o n s ti t u ti o n a ll y c o m p l ia n t . ” J a . I t h i n k i t - i t w o u ld h a v e - w h a te v e r h e s a y s w il l h a v e to b e r e a d i n t h e c o n t e x t o f t h e w h o le ju d g m e n t … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I t h in k I a ls o d o r e c a l l th a t h e s p e c i fi c a ll y s a y s y o u s e e t h e - h e s p e c i fi c a lly s a y s th a t : 10 “ T h e y d o n o t d e c id e w h e t h e r a n N D P P m a y l a w f u lly v a c a t e o ff ic e o u ts i d e o f t h e p r o v i s i o n s o f 1 2 ( 8 ) . ” B u t I t h i n k w e w il l l o o k a t i t a t t h e r i g h t t i m e , y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n r e l a ti o n to t h e f a c tu a l fi n d i n g a s to w h e t h e r … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S SC: Mr Nxasana made such a r e q u e s t . T h e r e a r e f a c tu a l fi n d i n g s i n p a r a g r a p h s 1 2 a n d 2 5 b y w a y o f a n e x a m p le a n d in f a c t t h r o u g h o u t t h e ju d g m e n t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S SC: But I suppose had the C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t b e e n s u b je c t t o a f u r t h e r a p p e a l t o t h e H o u s e o f L o r d s o r w h e r e v e r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C h a ir th e n o n e m i g h t a r g u e w h e t h e r t h o s e s ta t e m e n ts w e r e a r b i t e r o r o t h e r w is e … Page 86 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d I t h in k t h a t is th e i s s u e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S SC: Were they c e n tr a l to the ju d g m e n t ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Were they collateral to the ju d g m e n t ? CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C h a ir i t is n o w q u a r te r p a s t 11 . W e h a v e e x c e e d e d t h e tw o h o u r s . I d o h a v e t w o t o p ic s s ti ll t o d e a l w i th w h ic h s h o u ld n o t t a k e l o n g e r th a n 2 0 m i n u t e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e l e t u s d e a l w i th - w i t h t h e m a n d fi n is h … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n ta k e t h e t e a b r e a k a f t e r t h a t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S Mr Nxasana. 20 SC: Just two f u r th e r is s u e s If we can go please to paragraph 8 of your main s t a te m e n t . S o r r y i t i s p a r a g r a p h 8 1 . J u s t to s u m m a r i s e w h a t y o u r o w n a l le g a ti o n s a r e a f t e r h a v in g d e a l t w i th a l l t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e e v id e n c e , t h e s t a te m e n t s o f th e fo r m e r Pr e s i d e n t . I n p a r a g r a p h 8 1 y o u e x p la in - a n d I th i n k y o u h a v e d o n e t h i s in e v id e n c e b e f o r e - w h y y o u n e g o t i a t e d a s e t t le m e n t a g r e e m e n t . In p a r a g r a p h 8 2 .1 o n p a g e 2 2 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t i n th e f ir s t s e n t e n c e y o u Page 87 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 m a k e a s t a t e m e n t a b o u t t h e s o u r c e o f t h e d is p u te g iv in g r is e t o t h e s e t tl e m e n t. W h a t w a s t h a t d i s p u t e a s y o u - a s y o u d e s c r i b e it i n a n y event? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Th a n k y o u C h a ir. The s o u r c e o f t h e d is p u te w a s t h a t t h e Pr e s id e n t w a n t e d m e t o v a c a t e t h e o ffic e o f t h e N D P P a n d I d id n o t w a n t t o l e a v e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t a n d t h e n in … C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I a m s o r r y. T h e - t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h a t t h e d is p u te w a s t h a t w a s b e i n g s e tt l e d i s q u i t e i m p o r t a n t. 10 So - so that - t h a t i s t h e d is p u t e a s y o u u n d e r s t o o d i t … M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s b e in g s e tt l e d . Is t h a t r ig h t? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d th e n i n 8 2 . 6 y o u m a k e a f u r th e r s t a te m e n t . W h a t i s t h a t s ta t e m e n t? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I - I s a id C h a i r a f te r a l l t h e n e g o ti a ti o n s - t h e s e t tl e m e n t n e g o t ia t io n s - I u l t i m a t e ly c a m e to r e s ig n t o - b u t t h e n s a y h e r e t h a t: 20 “ A l l o f t h is d i d n o t c h a n g e t h e s i m p le f a c t th a t th e s e t tl e m e n t agreement was not and was never in t e n d e d t o b e c o n c lu d e d - t o c o n s ti t u t e a r e q u e s t o n m y p a r t t o v a c a t e o ffic e i n t e r m s o f S e c ti o n 1 2 ( 8 ) o f t h e N PA A c t . ” A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t t h a t i s y o u r c o n c l u s i o n ? Page 88 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: T h a t is m y c o n c lu s i o n C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : If we can go then to paragraph 8 5 a n d f o ll o w i n g . A f t e r th e c o n c lu s i o n o f t h e s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t t h e li ti g a t i o n t o w h ic h w e h a v e b e e n r e f e r r in g th r o u g h o u t y o u r t e s ti m o n y t o o k p la c e . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : An d in paragraph 86 you say t h a t y o u w e r e s e r v e d w i t h p a p e r s i n th e a p p li c a t io n C o r r u pt i o n W a t c h , 10 F r e e d o m U n d e r L a w v s t h e P r e s i d e nt a n d Va r i o u s O t h e r P a r t i e s . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t. with S e c u r i ty the then M i n is te r of State D i d y o u h a v e a m e e t in g M i n i s te r M a h lo b o on 2 2 O c to b e r 2 0 1 5 ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . Ye s C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h i s m e e t in g ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: L e t u s ju s t C h a ir f o r t h e s a k e o f t h e r e c o r d t h e s e p a p e r s t h a t I w a s s e r v e d w i th t h e y a r e b a s ic a lly t h e a p p li c a t io n t o r e v ie w a n d s e t a s i d e t h e s e t t le m e n t 20 a g r e e m e n t . J u s t f o r th e p u r p o s e o f t h e r e c o r d . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h e n I r e c e iv e d th e p a p e r s and I did not do anything about them. I t h in k t h e - w a s i t Fr e e d o m U n d e r L a w a n d C o r r u p t io n Wa t c h . T h e n s u b s e q u e n t ly I r e c e iv e d a c a ll fr o m the then M i n is t e r of State Security Page 89 of 216 M i n i s te r M a h lo b o who 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 requested to see - to see me. He was in Durban. I m e t w i th h i m in D u r b a n a t t h e B e v e r ly H i lls H o te l a n d I r e m e m b e r o n t h e d a y … C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n h e c a ll e d y o u d i d h e a s k t o h a v e a m e e ti n g w i t h you? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. D id h e s a y w h a t i t w a s g o i n g t o b e a b o u t a t t h e ti m e o f th e c a l l ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o h e d id n o t … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : E x p la i n . C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n e w e a c h o t h e r ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: C h a ir yes. M i n is t e r M a h l o b o a n d I a c tu a l ly k n e w e a c h o t h e r fr o m o u r d a y s a t th e U n iv e r s i ty o f Z u l u la n d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e s t u d e n ts a t t h e s a m e t i m e a t t h e U n iv e r s i ty … M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O f Z u lu l a n d ? 20 M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . W e w e r e s t u d e n ts , j a a n d I w e n t t o m e e t h i m . I r e m e m b e r t h a t h e e v e n d r o v e w i th m e in m y c a r t o e B a n d la H o te l w h ic h i s i n B a ll it o . I r e m e m b e r o n th a t d a y th e r e w a s g o i n g t o b e a - h e w a s g o i n g t o b e a s p e a k e r i n a w o r k s h o p th a t Page 90 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 was organised by then Premier of KZN th e H o n o u r a b le Mr Senzo Mchunu. W e d is c u s s e d s o m e is s u e s a n d t h e n h e a s k e d m e to m e e t w i t h - h e a r r a n g e d w i th h is C h i e f o f S t a ff w h o I a ls o k n o w h i m v e r y w e ll M r M a d u n a - t o a r r a n g e t h a t I m e e t w it h M r H u ll e y o n t h e n e x t d a y. H e k n e w t h a t I d i d n o t w a n t t o s e e Mr H u l le y a n y m o r e b e c a u s e h e h a d le t me down. T h e n I m e t w i th M r H u ll e y a n d M r M a d u n a a t th e B e v e r ly H il ls t h e n e x t d a y o v e r b r e a k f a s t a n d a t t h a t m e e ti n g Mr H u l le y t h e n 10 suggested to me that - he asked me if I was aware of the - of the li ti g a t i o n b y - b r o u g h t b y F r e e d o m U n d e r L a w a n d C o r r u p ti o n W a tc h a n d w h a t is it t h a t I w a s d o in g a b o u t i t. T h e n I m a d e i t c l e a r t o h i m t h a t I have seen the papers but you know I do not have energy anymore to d e a l w it h a l l t h e s e is s u e s . I h a v e n o t d o n e a n y t h in g . I d o n o t h a v e m o n e y. I do not h a v e t i m e t o g e t i n v o lv e d in a ll o f t h is . T h e n h e s u g g e s t e d t o m e t h a t I s h o u l d w o r k to g e th e r w i t h t h e P r e s i d e n t Z u m a a n d h e e v e n o ff e r e d t o p a y m y le g a l c o s ts i n c l u d i n g c o s ts o f s e n io r c o u n s e l b u t t h e n - I t h e n m a d e i t v e r y c le a r t o h i m t h a t y o u s e e I d o n o t k n o w t o w h a t e x t e n t y o u 20 w a n t m e to w o r k w i th M r Zu m a - P r e s i d e n t Z u m a - b e c a u s e I w i ll j u s t - I w i ll a d o p t a p o s i ti o n w h e r e I w il l s i t a n d w a i t t o s e e w h a t h e h a s - h e h a s t o s a y in a n s w e r i n g t h is b e c a u s e h e is th e o n e w h o m u s t a n s w e r. T h a t w a s m y v ie w. H e is t h e o n e w h o m u s t a n s w e r th is b e c a u s e h e k n o w s th a t I n e v e r m a d e th e r e q u e s t a n d I s a i d t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t p e r h a p s I w il l h a v e a l o o k . H e t h e n a s s u r e d m e t h a t t h e r e Page 91 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 is a d r a f t r e s p o n s e o r a n s w e r i n g a ffi d a v i t . T h e y h a v e d r a ft e d i t b u t t h e y h a v e n o t y e t s e r v e d a n d f il e d a n d h e a s s u r e d m e th a t in t h a t d r a f t a ffi d a v i t t h e r e is - t h e r e is n o w h e r e w h e r e P r e s i d e n t Z u m a a ll e g e s th a t I m a d e a r e q u e s t t o v a c a t e o ff ic e . T h e n I s a i d w e ll w e c o n c l u d e d t h e m e e ti n g b y a g r e e i n g t h a t h e w a s g o i n g t o s h a r e t h e d r a f t w it h m e - P r e s i d e n t Z u m a ’s d r a f t . I w il l h a v e t o g o to - t o r e a d i t a n d s e e t o w h a t e x te n t th e n I w o u ld c o n s id e r t a k i n g t h a t o ff e r o f w o r k i n g to g e t h e r. S o w h e r e I w i ll b e - w h e r e m y le g a l c o s t s w o u ld b e c o n tr ib u t e d b u t C h a ir I p o i n t e d o u t t o h i m t h a t y o u 10 s e e t h e p r o b le m is th e w a y I lo o k a t t h e a p p l ic a t i o n - b e c a u s e I h a d r e a d it . I s a id th e p r o b l e m i s b e c a u s e I g a t h e r e d t h a t h e w a n t e d m e t o - t o c o n fi r m o r t o h e l p P r e s id e n t Z u m a s a y in g t h a t I m a d e a r e q u e s t t o v a c a te o ff ic e b u t t h e n I m a d e it c le a r a t t h a t m e e t in g t h a t th a t I w il l n o t s a y. I c a n n o t s a y t h a t b e c a u s e I c a n n o t m is l e a d i f I r e m e m b e r w h a t I s a i d . I s a id I a m a n o ffi c e r o f t h e c o u r t a n d I c a n n o t m i s l e a d t h e c o u r t a n d y o u k n o w v e r y w e l l t h a t t h a t is n o t w h a t h a p p e n e d a n d I a m n o t g o i n g t o p u t - t h a t - th a t is w h e n h e t h e n a s s u r e d m e t h a t t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g i n th e d r a f t a ffi d a v i t . C h a ir … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w a s n o t h i n g a lo n g t h o s e li n e s ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Al o n g t h o s e li n e s … C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e d r a ft a ffi d a v it ? M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : In t h e d r a f t a ff id a v i t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Did you make any reference to Page 92 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 c o r r e s p o n d e n c e i n t h a t c o n v e r s a t io n ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: r e fe r e n c e t o c o r r e s p o n d e n c e . Ye s I m a d e - I m a d e C h a ir r e m e m b e r t h a t m o s t o f t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e fr o m - t h a t e m a n a te d fr o m m y a t t o r n e y s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I w a s a l s o in v o lv e d i n … C H A I R P E R S O N : In d r a f t in g i t . M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : In d r a ft i n g t h o s e le t t e r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I knew very well … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: W h a t w a s i n t h e l e t te r s . T h e n I p o i n t e d o u t t o h i m t h a t t h e r e a r e - th e r e is c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w h e r e it is c l e a r ly - i t c le a r ly p r o v e s t h a t I d i d n o t m a k e a n y r e q u e s t t o the President. I t is - i t i s t h e r e i n b la c k a n d w h i te a n d w e - w e h a d fi le d i t . H e a s s u r e d m e n e v e r t h e l e s s b u t t h e n C h a ir la t e r o n f a s t f o r w a r d I t h e n - I w a i te d fo r t h a t - f o r t h a t d r a f t a ff i d a v i t . I d id n o t f o ll o w i t u p . I m e a n i t w a s u p t o t h e m b u t t h e n I l a te r r e c e i v e d a c a ll . I 20 r e m e m b e r I w a s d r i v i n g a l o n g M 1 3 i n D u r b a n jo in i n g - a b o u t t o j o i n N 3 . I th in k I w a s d r iv i n g t o t h e o ff ic e i n D u r b a n . I r e c e iv e d a c a ll fr o m a - a jo u r n a l is t w h o t h e n a s k e d m e i f I w a s a w a r e th a t t h e P r e s i d e n t h a s s e r v e d a n d f il e d t h e a ff i d a v i t - h i s a n s w e r i n g a ff id a v i t . I s a id n o I a m n o t a w a r e . T h e n h e s a i d t o m e i t i s v e r y i n t e r e s ti n g t h a t i n h i s a ffi d a v i t h e t h e n s a y s t h a t y o u m a k e a Page 93 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 r e q u e s t t o - t o v a c a te o ffi c e . C h a ir I i m m e d i a te ly phoned my wife at work, I couldn’t wait to get to t h e o ffi c e , I p h o n e d m y w if e a t w o r k a n d I th e n to l d h e r a b o u t – th is n e w s , I t h e n a s k e d h e r t o d o w n l o a d t h a t a ffi d a v i t a n d e m a i l i t t o m e i m m e d i a t e ly a n d s h e r e a d i t , s h e ’s a l a w y e r h e r s e lf , s h e ’s a n A t t o r n e y, I a ls o r e a d i t a n d w e w e r e v e r y d is a p p o in t e d a n d o u r d is a p p o in t m e n t , C h a ir, w a s p u r e ly b a s e d o n t h e f a c t t h a t – I w a s s o d is a p p o in t e d a n d I w a s a n g r y t h a t d e s p i te w h a t t h e y h a d d o n e t o m e a n d n o w I a m b a c k i n m y h o m e to w n a n d th e y ’r e s t il l d o i n g a ll th e s e t h i n g s a n d th e o n e t h i n g 10 – t h e y c a ll e d m e t o t h i s m e e ti n g t h e y m a d e t h is u n d e r ta k i n g a g a i n , t h e y ’r e b e i n g d is h o n e s t . I t h e n d e c i d e d t o a p p r o a c h M in is t e r M a h l o b o , I c a m e – I w e n t t o s e e h i m a t h is r e s i d e n c e i n W a te r k l o o f t h e n I t o l d h i m a b o u t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u c a m e t o P r e t o r i a ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Ye s , I a ls o – m y fa m i ly is h e r e in M i d r a n d a s w e ll . CHAIRPERSON: O h o k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : What was the purpose of you c o n ta c t i n g M i n i s t e r M a h l o b o ? 20 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A: I r a is e d t h e is s u e o f m y d is a p p o in t m e n t o f w h a t I h a d d i s c o v e r e d t h a t d e s p i te M r H u l l e y h a v in g a s s u r e d m e th a t t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g a l o n g t h e l in e s i n t h e d r a f t a ffi d a v i t , fir s tly t h a t h e w a s g o in g to s h a r e t h e d r a f t a ff id a v i t a n d h e fa il e d t o d o t h a t a n d s e c o n d ly t h a t t h e a v e r m e n t s a b o u t m e i n th e a ffi d a v i t , w h ic h t h e y k n o w v e r y w e ll , i n c l u d i n g h i m , M a h l o b o th a t it i s n o t c o r r e c t . Page 94 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 I m m e d ia t e l y C h a ir, w h i ls t I w a s t h e r e h e t h e n c a l le d Mi n is t e r M a s u t h a a n d h e r a is e d t h e is s u e w i t h h i m a n d s a id , h e y y o u h a v e – I’ m w i t h N x a s a n a h e r e a n d h e ’s c o m p l a i n i n g a b o u t w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d w h y d i d y o u p u t t h is in t h e a ffi d a v it . I got the sense that the answer from M i n is t e r M a s u t h a w a s t h a t h e w a s a d v is e d t h a t I h a d a c c e p t e d t h a t v e r s i o n , w h ic h w a s n o t c o r r e c t . I s a id t o h i m – y o u s e e n o w I h a v e t o p u t u p m y a ffi d a v i t, I k n o w I a m l a t e I d i d n o t fi le I o n l y f il e d t h e n o t ic e t o o p p o s e a n d I d id n o t fi l e m y a n s w e r in g a ff i d a v i t , t h e n I s a i d , I h a v e t o c o n s u lt m y l a w y e r s s o t h a t w e s e t th e r e c o r d s tr a ig h t w h ic h t h e n 10 c u l m i n a te d in m e f i li n g w h a t w e t e r m e d t h e e x p l a n a t o r y a ff id a v i t th a t w e fi le d i n t h e H ig h C o u r t s e t t in g t h e r e c o r d s tr a i g h t th a t I d i d n o t m a k e that request. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u g o fir s t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Yo u mi g h t b e a s k in g w h a t I w a n t to a s k . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A f t e r th e t e le p h o n e c a ll b e t w e e n M in is t e r M a h l o b o a n d th e t h e n M in is te r M a s u t h a , d id M i n is t e r M a h l o b o t e l l y o u w h a t M i n is t e r M a s u t h a h a d s a i d ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s C h a ir. W h a t w a s th a t? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA: H e s a id – M i n is te r M a h l o b o s a i d t o m e th a t M i n i s te r M a s u t h a t h a t i s w h a t h e w a s t o l d , h e w a s t o l d th a t t h e y h a d e n g a g e d m e a n d I a g r e e d t o t h a t v e r s i o n , I c o n fir m e d th a t th is i s w h a t h a p p e n e d a n d … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : What version? Page 95 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: The version that I made a r e q u e s t t o v a c a t e o ff ic e w h ic h I t h e n d e n ie d . CHAIRPERSON: A n d h o w d i d y o u r m e e ti n g w i th M i n is t e r M a h l o b o e n d in t e r m s o f th is i s s u e ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA : C h a ir it e n d e d – I p o i n te d o u t to h i m t h a t I h a v e t o fi l e m y a ff id a v i t n o w b e c a u s e t h i s h a s – I t o l d h i m t h a t th is w i ll t a r n i s h m y i m a g e b e c a u s e it is w r o n g a n d I a m n o w g o i n g t o m a k e s u r e t h a t I c o n s u l t m y l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a t iv e s t o a s s i s t m e in d r a w i n g t h e a ff id a v i t a n d s e t t h e r e c o r d s tr a ig h t , w h ic h w e , u l ti m a t e l y 10 d i d a n d u n f o r tu n a te ly o u r a ffi d a v it w a s r e j e c t e d i n t h e H ig h C o u r t . CHAIRPERSON: I n th e H i g h C o u r t ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Ye s w e l l , y o u w il l r e m e m b e r t h a t l a s t ti m e w e d i d h a v e a lo o k – I h o p e m y r e c o ll e c t io n is c o r r e c t , w e d i d h a v e a l o o k a t t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t w a s e x c h a n g e d b e t w e e n y o u r a t to r n e y s a n d e i t h e r t h e P r e s i d e n t o r h is a d v is o r s , M i s s M a k h e n e a n d M r H u l l e y b e t w e e n th e e n d – t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f N o v e m b e r / D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 , J a n u a r y / F e b r u a r y a n d s o o n i n 2 0 1 5 a n d t h a t i n y o u r a t t o r n e y ’s le t t e r o f t h e 3 r d o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 4 , I t h in k i t w a s q u i t e m a d e c le a r t h a t y o u 20 t h o u g h t th a t t h e r e w a s n o b a s i s f o r y o u t o v a c a t e o ffi c e a n d y o u d i d n o t w a n t t o d o t h a t . T h a t w a s r e p e a t e d i n th e i r l e tt e r o f 1 0 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 w h ic h th e y s e n t t o , I t h i n k M i s s M a k h e n e a n d I t h i n k M i s s Makhene – I don’t know whether she replied on the 12th of December or in J a n u a r y, I t h in k w e l o o k e d a t th e q u e s t io n w h e th e r t h e r e w a s a n y r e fe r e n c e to you h a v in g made a r e q u e s t fr o m Page 96 of 216 M is s M a k h e n e ’s 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t o y o u r a t t o r n e y s a n d fr o m M r H u l le y ’s c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t o y o u o r y o u r a t t o r n e y s a n d w e c o u ld n ’t fi n d a n y t h in g . S o t h e q u e s ti o n I w a n t t o a s k i s , w h e n d i d y o u h e a r fo r t h e f ir s t ti m e t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s v e r s io n o r t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t w a s s a y i n g t h a t y o u h a d r e q u e s t e d – y o u h a d m a d e a r e q u e s t t o h i m t o v a c a t e o ffic e , w h e n d id y o u h e a r th a t f o r t h e f ir s t ti m e a n d fr o m w h o m ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: C h a ir I h e a r d fo r t h e fir s t ti m e fr o m t h e j o u r n a l is t w h o c a l le d m e . CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s , n o w y o u s a i d y o u , i n y o u r m e e t in g I t h o u g h t y o u s a i d i n y o u r m e e t in g w i t h Mr H u l le y t h e r e w a s a d is c u s s i o n b e t w e e n t h e t w o o f y o u a b o u t th e r e q u e s t a n d Mr H u ll e y a s s u r e d y o u t h a t t h e d r a f t a ffi d a v it o f t h e P r e s i d e n t t h a t h e s a i d w a s a lr e a d y t h e r e , d i d n o t h a v e s u c h a n a ll e g a ti o n ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Ye s C h a ir, I w a s c o n c e r n e d w h e n h e m a d e t h a t a p p r o a c h to m e t o w o r k w i t h th e P r e s i d e n t a n d m y in c l in a ti o n , I m e a n i t w a s c l e a r t o m e , I p o i n t i t o u t b e c a u s e I w a s c o n c e r n e d t h a t th e o n l y t h i n g – t h e o n ly w a y o u t f o r t h e P r e s i d e n t i n t h i s w h o le th i n g w a s t o s a y I m a d e a r e q u e s t to v a c a te o ffic e . 20 CHAIRPERSON: I ’ m s o r r y, j u s t r e p e a t t h a t s e n t e n c e ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: C h a ir a f t e r r e a d i n g th e p a p e r s , a s a l a w y e r, fo r t h e Pr e s id e n t t o d e fe n d h i m s e l f, t h e o n ly p l a u s i b le e x p l a n a t io n w a s t o s a y M r N x a s a n a – I s p o k e t o M r N x a s a n a a n d h e m a d e a r e q u e s t t o v a c a t e o ffi c e i n t e r m s o f S e c ti o n 1 2 ( 8 ) . T h a t c o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e p la u s i b l e e x p l a n a ti o n . Page 97 of 216 T h e n w h e n H u ll e y 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 a p p r o a c h e d m e w i t h a r e q u e s t t o w o r k w i t h t h e P r e s id e n t i n t h i s m a t te r I h a d c o n c e r n s t h a t th e P r e s i d e n t w a s s tu c k a t t h e ti m e b e c a u s e ti m e t o fi le , to r e s p o n d h a d g o n e a n d p a s s e d a n d h e w a s u n a b le to fi l e h i s a n s w e r i n g a ffi d a v i t . H e n c e th e r e w a s t h i s r e q u e s t a n d I th e n s e n s e d t h a t t h is w h a t t h e y w a n t f r o m m e . I r a i s e d i t w i t h M r H u l le y t h a t , Mr H u ll e y, k n o w w h a t y o u w a n t f r o m m e . Yo u w a n t m e to s a y – t o w o r k w i t h t h e P r e s id e n t a n d s a y th a t I m a d e a r e q u e s t b e c a u s e th a t ’s t h e o n ly w a y to d e f e n d – t h a t ’s t h e o n ly w a y fo r t h e Pr e s id e n t t o o p p o s e t h is a p p l ic a ti o n . 10 T h e n I p o in t e d o u t t o h i m t h a t h e d i d n o t d e n y i t n e i th e r d id h e a g r e e t o i t b u t h e d i d n o t d e n y h e d id n o t a g r e e to t h a t e i t h e r b e c a u s e I w a s t e l li n g h i m . Then I said to him, I cannot say I m a d e a r e q u e s t b e c a u s e th e r e is c o r r e s p o n d e n c e i n m y a t t o r n e y ’s f il e s w h ic h s u g g e s t t h a t w e h a v e b e e n o n r e c o r d s a y i n g t h a t i t h a s n e v e r b e e n m y i n t e n t io n t o r e s i g n a n d i t’s t h e r e , t h e r e f o r e I ’ m n o t g o in g t o s a y a n y t h in g t h a t m a y a m o u n t to m is le a d i n g th e C o u r t a s a n O ffi c e r o f the Court. T h a t is w h e n h e a s s u r e d m e th a t th e r e i s n o th i n g a l o n g t h o s e li n e s i n t h e d r a f t a ff i d a v i t w h ic h h e t h e n u n d e r t o o k t o s h a r e i t w i t h m e b e f o r e t h e y fil e d . CHAIRPERSON: 20 S o y o u a r e s a y i n g t h a t it w a s n o t Mr H u l le y w h o s a id t o y o u t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t w a s g o in g t o s a y y o u h a d m a d e a r e q u e s t , h e d i d n o t s a y th a t ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: N o C h a ir, h e d i d n o t . Ye s a n d y o u s a y a c t u a ll y h e d i d n o t ta lk a b o u t a r e q u e s t b e f o r e y o u r a is e d t h e is s u e o f th e r e q u e s t y o u r s e l f ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Page 98 of 216 Ye s h e d id n o t. 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 CHAIRPERSON: A n d y o u s a y y o u a r e t h e o n e w h o r a is e d th e is s u e o f a r e q u e s t a n d y o u d id s o b e c a u s e y o u u n d e r s t o o d th a t t h e o n l y d e fe n c e t h a t t h e P r e s id e n t c o u ld h a v e w a s o n e t h a t w o u l d b e b a s e d o n s a y i n g y o u h a d m a d e a r e q u e s t? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. A n d t h e n h e a s s u r e d y o u , t h i s i s M r H u ll e y, t h a t t h e d r a f t a ffi d a v i t h e w a s ta lk in g a b o u t d id n o t m a k e s u c h a n a v e r m e n t? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: T h a t is c o r r e c t w h ic h la t e r o n p r o v e d t o b e n o t tr u e . 10 CHAIRPERSON: S o – b u t t h e m e e ti n g w i t h Mr H u l le y p r e c e d e d t h e t e l e p h o n e c a ll fr o m th e j o u r n a li s t? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: That is correct. Okay thank you. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : J u s t b r i e fl y a f t e r th e m e e ti n g w i t h Mr H u l le y a n d d u r i n g t h a t m e e t in g y o u ’v e to ld t h e C h a ir t h a t y o u r e fe r r e d t o c o r r e s p o n d e n c e . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : Ye s . In t h e p o s s e s s i o n o f y o u r a tt o r n e y. 20 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s C h a ir. D i d y o u t a k e a n y s t e p s to o b t a i n th a t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A: Ye s C h a ir, I t h e n , f a c e d w i t h th is p r o b le m n o w w h e r e m y n a m e h a s b e e n d r a g g e d in t o th is w h e r e a l le g a ti o n s w e r e m a d e b y t h e P r e s i d e n t i n a n a ffi d a v it t h a t I m a d e a Page 99 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 r e q u e s t , t h e n I c o n ta c te d m y a t t o r n e y s M r M a b u n d a r e q u e s ti n g t h e – I t o l d h i m a b o u t w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d a n d I r e q u e s t e d m y fi le b e c a u s e I w a n t e d t o p r e p a r e t h e a ff id a v i t a n d s e t t h e r e c o r d s tr a i g h t . C h a i r t o m y s u r p r is e M r M a b u n d a s e a r c h e d fo r m y f i le s e v e r y w h e r e , h e s a i d h e s e a r c h e d f o r m y fi l e s a t h is h o m e , i n h i s o ffic e , in t h e b o o t o f h is c a r a n d my fi le s w e r e n o t fo u n d b u t th e n C h a ir, a s I p o i n te d o u t p r e v io u s ly, t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e fi r s t p o i n t o f c a l l – f ir s t th in g to d o , to g o t o m y l a w y e r s b u t I h a d m a d e p r e c a u ti o n s , I h a d k e p t – l ik e I d o n ’t h a v e o n ly – y e s te r d a y I w a s c o n s u l t in g 10 w i t h t h e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r, I b r o u g h t m y o w n f il e , I d o h a v e th e s e t h i n g s , I p u t t h e m a t d i ff e r e n t p l a c e s f o r safe keeping. T h e n I h a d t o r e tr i e v e m y f il e s f r o m w h e r e I h a d k e p t t h e m , o t h e r fi l e s a n d I g o t th e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t , C h a ir, I c a n s a y t h a t is m y v i e w, t h a t th e r e a s o n w h y t h e P r e s i d e n t f e l t i t n e c e s s a r y to p u t t h i s a v e r m e n t a b o u t m e i n th e a ffi d a v it a n d s a y t h a t I m a d e a r e q u e s t a n d f o r h i m a n d M r H u ll e y n o t t o s h a r e t h e d r a f t a ff id a v i t a f t e r h a v i n g m a d e a n u n d e r ta k i n g t o d o t h a t , I t h in k i t c a n n o t b e a c o i n c id e n c e t h a t m y f il e w e n t m i s s i n g . H e w a s c o n fi d e n t w h e n h e d e p o s e d to t h a t a ffi d a v i t t h a t t h e r e w o u l d n o t b e th is c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t o p r o v e t h a t I h a d n o t m a d e t h e r e q u e s t , u n f o r t u n a te ly I h a d ta k e n p r e c a u t io n s , I h a d . 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Fi n a ll y M r N x a s a n a in p a r a g r a p h s 9 3 t o 9 5 y o u m a k e c e r t a in b r i e f c o n c lu s i o n s , is t h e r e a n y th in g y o u w is h to t e ll t h e C h a i r a b o u t w h a t h a p p e n e d u n d e r y o u r w a t c h a n d it s e ff e c t o n t h e N PA a s a w h o l e ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Ye s C h a ir, b r i e fly m y c o n c l u s i o n s a r e b r ie f ly th a t , p o li ti c a l a n d e x t e r n a l i n t e r fe r e n c e i n Page 100 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 d e c is i o n m a k in g a t t h e N PA u n d e r mi n e d i t s i n te g r i ty a n d e ff e c t iv e n e s s a n d s e r v e d to e r o d e p u b lic c o n fi d e n c e in t h e o r g a n is a ti o n a n d a ls o t h e f a il u r e t o a c t d e c is iv e l y a g a i n s t A d v o c a te s J i b a a n d M a g w e b e in p a r t ic u l a r h a r m e d th e o r g a n is a ti o n a n d i n m y v i e w t h e P a r li a m e n ta r y C o m m i t t e e o n J u s ti c e d id l it t le o r n o t h in g t o e x e r c i s e a p p r o p r i a te o v e r s ig h t o r i n te r v e n e in th e is s u e s a n d C h a ir, I s tr e s s , i n t h e i s s u e s c o n c e r n i n g A d v o c a t e s J i b a a n d M a g w e b e a t l e a s t w h i le I w a s i n th e o ffic e . CHAIRPERSON: 10 D i d y o u b r i n g t h e s e is s u e s c o n c e r n in g M r s J i b a a n d M r M a g w e b e t o t h e a t t e n t io n o f t h e P o r t f o l i o C o m m i t t e e o n J u s ti c e ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA: C h a ir t h e P o r t fo li o C o m m i t t e e o n J u s ti c e w e r e v e r y m u c h a w a r e o f t h e is s u e s a n d w h a t w o u ld u s u a lly happen there, when the m e m b e r s , e s p e c i a l ly th e m e m b e r s o f t h e C o m m i t t e e w h o h a p p e n e d to b e m e m b e r s o f t h e o p p o s it i o n p a r t i e s w a n t e d t o r a is e t h e s e is s u e s , th e n t h e y w o u l d b e b r u s h e d a s i d e a n d t h e y w o u ld n o t b e e n te r t a i n e d , th a t w a s m y o b s e r v a t i o n C h a ir a n d th e i s s u e s w e r e i n t h e p u b li c d o m a i n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja know th e issue were in the p u b l ic d o m a i n … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. 20 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Th e P o r t fo li o C o m m i t t e e have a – inherent powers, had inherent powers to intervene and deal w i t h i s s u e s th a t a r e i n th e p u b lic d o m a in w h ic h a ffe c ts th e o p e r a t io n o f t h e N PA , t h a t is th e ir r o l e . CHAIRPERSON: S o a r e y o u s a y in g t h a t y o u d i d n o t r a is e th e s e is s u e s w i th t h e P o r tf o li o C o m m i t t e e o n J u s ti c e b u t n e v e r th e le s s y o u s a y Page 101 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 t h e y w o u l d h a v e b e e n a w a r e o f t h e s e i s s u e s b e c a u s e t h e is s u e s w e r e in t h e p u b li c d o m a i n a n d t h e y s h o u l d h a v e d e a l t w i t h t h e m , th a t ’s t h e o n e p o i n t , is t h a t t h e o n e p o i n t y o u ’r e m a k in g a n d t h e o th e r o n e b e i n g t h a t y o u a r e a w a r e t h a t e v e n t h o u g h y o u d i d n ’ t r e fe r th e s e is s u e s t o th e P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e y o u a r e a w a r e t h a t m e m b e r s o f o p p o s i ti o n p a r t ie s d i d r a i s e t h e s e i s s u e s b u t th e y w e r e b r u s h e d a s id e in t h a t c o m m i t te e , a r e t h o s e t h e t w o p o in ts y o u a r e m a k i n g ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: 10 T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. W e ll I … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Chair and over and above t h a t C h a ir, a n d w h e n I l e f t C h a ir, I s i g n e d o ff th e a n n u a l r e p o r t a n d i n t h e a n n u a l r e p o r t th a t I s i g n e d o ff w h ic h I s a w i n h i s r e s p o n s e to th e – w h e n A d v o c a t e S h a u n A b r a h a m s fi l e d , I t h i n k h e ’s a n s w e r i n g a ffi d a v i t in th e , w a s i t th e H ig h C o u r t e i th e r i n t h e H i g h C o u r t o r i n t h e C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t h e d e c i d e d t o c h o o s e t o c a ll – t o r e f e r t o th e a n n u a l r e p o r t b e c a u s e w e a ls o m a d e m e n ti o n – r e f e r r e d t o th e a n n u a l r e p o r t b e c a u s e i n t h e a n n u a l r e p o r t I d e a l t a ls o w i t h t h e c o n d u c t o f A d v o c a t e s J i b a a n d M a g w e b e b u t th e n I r e m e m b e r s e e i n g s o m e t h i n g i n t h e a n s w e r i n g a ff i d a v i t o f A d v o c a te 20 S h a u n A b r a h a m s r e fe r r i n g to t h a t t h i n g a s n o t h i n g m o r e t h a n m y – s o m e t h i n g l ik e m y s t a t e m e n t a n d t h a t it w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n in th e a n n u a l r e p o r t b u t b a s ic a l ly h e w a s a tt a c k i n g m e f o r h a v i n g i n c l u d e d m y o b s e r v a ti o n s , my o v e r v i e w o f w h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h e N PA b e c a u s e I f e l t i t w a s n e c e s s a r y th a t i t s h o u l d f o r m p a r t o f t h e r e p o r t u n d e r my le a d e r s h i p . CHAIRPERSON: Well the point you have made about what the Page 102 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e o n J u s t ic e m a y o r m a y n o t h a v e d o n e is q u it e i m p o r t a n t b e c a u s e I h a v e p u b l ic a l ly s a id t h a t I b e li e v e th a t , i f a t t h e e n d o f t h e w o r k o f t h e C o m m i s s io n , I c o m e t o t h e c o n c l u s i o n fo r e x a m p l e w i th r e g a r d t o S t a t e C a p t u r e , y o u r s i t u a t i o n m ig h t o r m ig h t n o t h a v e a n y t h in g t o d o w i t h S t a t e C a p t u r e , t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t I m i g h t c o n c l u d e t h a t t h e r e w a s S t a t e C a p t u r e . O n e o f th e is s u e s I w o u l d h a v e t o lo o k a t is , w h a t w e r e v a r io u s b o d ie s d o i n g w h i c h m a y h a v e h a d a n o b li g a ti o n t o d o c e r t a in t h i n g s a n d t h a t w o u l d i n c l u d e P a r li a m e n t t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t P a r l ia m e n t h a s g o t a c o n s ti t u t io n a l o b li g a ti o n o f o v e r s i g h t , 10 w a s i t p l a y in g i ts o v e r s i g h t o b li g a ti o n s p r o p e r ly. O b v i o u s l y it ’s n o t j u s t a q u e s t i o n o f S t a t e C a p t u r e t h e le v e ls o f c o r r u p ti o n i n t h e c o u n t r y a n d h o w c e r t a in t h in g s w e r e d o n e if t h e y h a v e a n o b l i g a t io n o f o v e r s ig h t , w h e n d i d t h e y b e c o m e a w a r e , w h a t d i d t h e y d o a n d w h e th e r t h e r e w a s a f a il u r e t o p e r f o r m t h e ir c o n s ti t u ti o n a l o b li g a ti o n s p r o p e r l y o n th e p a r t o f m e m b e r s o f P a r li a m e n t o r s o m e m e m b e r s o f P a r li a m e n t b e c a u s e o f o th e r c o n s i d e r a t io n s a n d i f s o , w h a t a r e t h o s e c o n s i d e r a ti o n s a n d w h a t s h o u l d t h i s C o m m is s i o n r e c o m m e n d s h o u l d b e d o n e to fix t h a t s o t h a t , s h o u l d w e h a v e s i m i la r s i t u a t io n s i n th e fu t u r e , P a r li a m e n t w o u l d b e a b l e t o p e r fo r m it s d u t ie s p r o p e r l y. 20 So what you say whether the J u s t ic e P o r t f o li o C o m m i t t e e p la y e d i ts r o l e p r o p e r ly is q u i te i m p o r t a n t fr o m t h a t p e r s p e c t iv e . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s M r Pr e to r i u s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : CHAIRPERSON: I u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir. T h a t’s t h e e v i d e n c e C h a ir. Ye s I t h i n k I ’v e g o t j u s t a f e w q u e s ti o n s t o w r a p u p Page 103 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 Mr Nxasana. Now you have told me that you never made any request t o th e P r e s i d e n t t h a t h e s h o u l d a l lo w y o u t o v a c a te o ff ic e b u t a f te r t h e s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t h a d b e e n c o n c lu d e d d i d y o u s u b m it a l e tt e r o f r e s ig n a ti o n a s N D P P o r a n y t h in g ? I t h i n k t h e s e t t le m e n t a g r e e m e n t h a d a c l a u s e to t h e e ff e c t th a t y o u w e r e g o i n g to r e li n q u is h t h e p o s i ti o n o f N D P P s o I w a n t to k n o w h o w t h a t – w h a t t h a t f o r m t h a t t o o k , t h e r e l i n q u i s h i n g o f t h a t p o s it i o n ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA: T h a t w a s t h e o n ly d o c u m e n t I s i g n e d C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Yo u d id n o t p u t i n a n y r e s i g n a t i o n le t t e r ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA: N o r e s i g n a t io n l e tt e r w h e r e I p u t u p m y r e a s o n s fo r r e s i g n a t io n a s r e q u ir e d b y th e N PA A c t . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u s i m p l y v a c a t e d th e o ff ic e i n t e r m s o f t h a t s e t tl e m e n t? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA: Ye s C h a ir, i n f a c t , I r e m e m b e r e v e n w h e n I – o n t h e d a y w h e n I s i g n e d t h a t s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t C h a ir, t h e r e w a s a l o t o f p r e s s u r e a n d I s ig n e d i t a s I p o i n t e d o u t p r e v io u s ly, I s i g n e d t h a t s e tt l e m e n t a g r e e m e n t a t Mr H u ll e y ’s o ffi c e a t U m h l a n g a . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A n d s tr a n g e ly a t t h e t i m e , w h e n I s i g n e d i t, M r H u ll e y e v e n s u g g e s t e d t h a t, w h y d o I n o t l e a v e i m m e d i a t e ly a n d n o t w a i t u n t il t h e e n d o f M a y a n d I r e f u s e d . C h a ir I t e ll y o u w h y I r e f u s e d th a t , b e c a u s e d u r i n g th e t i m e , I g o t th e s e n s e t h a t , I m a y b e w r o n g , b u t I s tr o n g ly b e li e v e t h a t t h e r e a s o n w h y h e Page 104 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 r a i s e d t h a t w a s b e c a u s e a t th e ti m e I w a s b u s y w i th a r e v i e w n o t w i t h s t a n d in g t h e fa c t th a t w e h a d r e a c h e d t h e s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t in t e r m s o f w h ic h I h a d to l e a v e o ffic e b y t h e e n d o f M a y 2 0 1 5 b u t I w a s b u s y, I h a d a p p o i n te d A d v o c a t e G e r r ie N e l t o r e v i e w t h e m a t t e r o n e , M r P a n d a y. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Ye s a n d I fo u n d i t v e r y s tr a n g e a n d o d d th a t I a m n o w b e i n g r e q u e s te d t o l e a v e i m m e d i a te ly w h e n I’ m s t il l b u s y w i th a m a t te r – a s s e n s it iv e a s t h a t o n e . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A n d t h e s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t c o n t e m p l a t e d t h a t y o u w o u ld le a v e a t t h e e n d o f M a y ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: A t t h e e n d o f M a y. Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXA SANA: I th e n i g n o r e d i t a n d I le f t a t t h e e n d o f M a y, u n f o r tu n a t e ly a t t h e t i m e w h e n I le f t I h a d n o t t a k e n t h e d e c i s i o n t o r e i n s t a t e c h a r g e s a g a i n s t M r P a n d a y. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s , y o u s a i d th a t a t t h e ti m e t h a t M r H u l l e y s u g g e s t e d o r a s k e d – s u g g e s t e d t h a t y o u l e a v e i m m e d i a t e ly a f t e r s ig n in g t h e s e t t le m e n t a g r e e m e n t y o u w e r e b u s y – y o u w e r e i n t h e p r o c e s s o f r e v ie w in g t h e m a t t e r o f M r P a n d a y, w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d i n t h a t m a t t e r, w h a t w e r e y o u r e v ie w in g , I’ m n o t t a l k i n g a b o u t th e f a c ts h a d t h e r e b e e n c h a r g e s a g a i n s t h i m t h a t w e r e w i th d r a w n o r h e h a d b e e n c h a r g e d a n d y o u w e r e r e v ie w in g w h e t h e r h e s h o u l d h a v e b e e n Page 105 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 charged? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Ye s C h a ir t h a t is th e m a t t e r w h ic h , I th i n k , G e n e r a l B o o y s e n te s ti f ie d a b o u t. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: I t ’s a m a t te r i n v o lv i n g M r P a n d a y i t ’s fr a u d a n d c o r r u p t i o n c h a r g e s a n d t h a t m a t t e r a ls o i n a w a y s o m e c o n n e c t i o n w it h t h e f o r m e r C o m m i s s io n e r o f P o li c e in K Z N a n d i t a ls o i n v o lv e d h e r h u s b a n d a n d t h a t a t t h e c e n tr e o f i t w a s th is Mr P il l a y a n d a d e c is i o n … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . 10 CHAIRPERSON: M r P a n d a y. MR MXO LISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA: S o r r y M r P a n d a y, a d e c is i o n w a s t a k e n n o t t o p r o s e c u t e Mr P a n d a y o r t o w i t h d r a w c h a r g e s a g a in s t M r P a n d a y a n d I th e n r e c e i v e d a r e q u e s t t o r e v ie w t h e d e c is i o n o f t h e D P P K Z N fr o m , a m o n g s t o th e r s , I r e m e m b e r I r e c e iv e d f r o m G e n e r a l B o o y s e n a n d a ls o t h e t h e n h e a d o f th e Pr i o r i ty – t h e H a w k s w h ic h w a s G e n e r a l D r a m a t a t t h e t i m e a n d C h a ir w e – I t h e n d e c i d e d t o r o p e i n A d v o c a te G e r h a r d N e l . O u r p r e p a r a ti o n s w e r e a t a v e r y a d v a n c e d s t a g e a t th e t i m e , s u c h t h a t i n d ic a ti o n s w e r e t h a t w e w e r e g o i n g to r e i n s t a te c h a r g e s b u t t h e n w e h a d t o a l l o w th e p r o c e s s t o g i v e 20 t h e o t h e r s i d e t o m a k e r e p r e s e n ta t io n s a n d j u s t b e fo r e I l e f t , Mr P a n d a y ’s a d v o c a te h a d [i n d i s t i n c t ] u s w i t h v o l u m in o u s r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s t h a t w e h a d t o g o t h r o u g h a n d u n f o r tu n a te l y my t i m e c a m e t h a t I h a d t o le a v e . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y n o w w h e n y o u a c c e p te d t h e a p p o i n t m e n t a s N D P P, w e r e y o u a s o le p r a c t i ti o n e r a t t h e ti m e , I k n o w th a t y o u h a v e Page 106 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 t o l d u s t h a t y o u a r e a s o l e p r a c ti ti o n e r n o w. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir, I h a v e a l w a y s b e e n a s o l e p r a c t i ti o n e r. CHAIRPERSON: N o w w h a t h a p p e n e d t o y o u r p r a c t ic e w h e n y o u h a d t o – w h e n y o u a c c e p te d t h e a p p o i n t m e n t? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A: C h a ir b e c a u s e I d i d n ’ t k n o w t h a t I w a s g o i n g t o b e a p p o in t e d a n d it a l l h a p p e n e d v e r y q u ic k ly I h a d t o r e s o r t i n a b a n d o n i n g m y p r a c tic e b y a b a n d o n in g in i n v e r t e d c o m m a s b e c a u s e t h e r e i s s o m e p r o c e s s e s o f c l o s i n g d o w n t h e p r a c ti c e 10 a n d I c o u ld n ’ t c l o s e t h e p r a c t ic e d o w n a n d I c o u ld n ’ t s e ll i t , I th e n a s k e d a – I g a v e i t to a c o l le a g u e w i t h a ll m y c l i e n ts a n d e v e r y t h i n g . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b a s i c a ll y y o u d o n a t e d ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A: I gave away and when I c a m e b a c k fr o m th e N PA … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s t h a t ’s w h a t I a l s o w a n t t o k n o w h o w – w h e n y o u c a m e b a c k w h a t w a s t h e p o s i ti o n , in o t h e r w o r d s y o u g a v e y o u r p r a c ti c e to another attorney? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s C h a ir. W h i l e y o u – a f te r y o u h a d a c c e p t e d a p p o i n t m e n t a s N D P P. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. S o y o u n o l o n g e r, a s y o u c o n t in u e d a t t h e N PA y o u n o lo n g e r h a d a p r a c ti c e o f y o u r o w n ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Page 107 of 216 T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER N XASANA: A n d C h a ir t h e p r o b l e m w i t h th e c li e n te l e is o n c e t h e y g e t t o k n o w a n e w le g a l p r a c ti t i o n e r t h e y s t ic k … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: Th e y g e t a t ta c h e d t o t h a t o n e . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA: T h e y g e t a t ta c h e d t o t h e m , I lo s t, in t h e p r o c e s s l o ts o f c li e n ts a n d I a m s t a r ti n g a fr e s h b u t t h a t w a s n o t t h e o n ly p r o b le m b e c a u s e e v e n w h e n , a f t e r I h a d l e f t N PA b e c a u s e o f th e a p p l ic a ti o n s t h a t w e r e b r o u g h t b y Fr e e d o m u n d e r L a w a n d C o r r u p ti o n W a t c h I f o u n d m y s e l f i n a p r e d ic a m e n t o f g o i n g b a c k to 10 p r a c ti c e , I c o u l d n ’ t ta k e a d e c is i o n t o r e - o p e n a t t h e ti m e b e c a u s e I d i d n ’ t k n o w my fa t e w h e th e r I w o u l d b e r e in s t a t e d , a s I p o in t e d o u t I’ m s t il l w il li n g t o g o b a c k to t h e N PA . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: T h e n I h a d t o w a i t u n t il t h e w h o l e p r o c e s s o f th is l it i g a t io n h a d c o m p l e t e d th e n i t w a s – o n ly t h e n t h a t I m a d e a d e c i s i o n t h a t t h e o n l y w a y o f e a r n i n g a li v i n g f o r m e t h a t I k n o w is to p r a c tic e a s a n a t to r n e y a n d th in g s a r e v e r y t o u g h i n D u r b a n , it ’s n o t e a s y, y o u a s k a n y o n e w h o p r a c ti c e s in D u r b a n i t’s – when I got back I found that things have changed. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Now you were appointed in August 2013 as NDPP b u t t h e a p p o i n t m e n t w a s t o b e e ff e c t fr o m 1 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 3 , is t h a t r ig h t ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: 1 O c t o b e r. 1 October? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Page 108 of 216 Ye s . 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 CHAIRPERSON: B u t t h e a p p o i n t m e n t w a s in A u g u s t? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. Ye s , 1 O c to b e r t h e n 2 0 1 4 a n d y o u o n ly l e ft t h e p o s i ti o n o f N D P P i n 2 0 1 5 . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: End of May 2015. E n d o f M a y 2 0 1 5 , s o y o u s p e n t a b o u t w h a t , tw o a n d a h a l f y e a r s a t t h e N PA ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: 10 Less than two years? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: Less than two years. Ye s . O k a y m y a r i t h m e tic i s n o t g o o d o k a y s o th e n w h e n y o u le f t y o u w e r e g o i n g to b e p a i d a c e r ta i n a m o u n t o f m o n e y, y o u w e r e paid that amount of money? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. H o w d i d y o u e a r n a liv in g a f t e r y o u h a d le f t t h e N PA ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA: I h a d to l iv e o n th e m o n e y th a t I w a s p a i d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Yo u u s e d th a t m o n e y t o … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: E a r n a l iv in g . Ye s , s o y o u d i d n o t – y o u h a d n o p r a c t ic e to g o b a c k to? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: N o t a t t h a t s a g e C h a ir. At that stage? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Page 109 of 216 J a a t t h a t s ta g e C h a ir 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 w h a t I t h e n u lt i m a t e ly d i d , I t h e n w e n t b a c k t o t h e c o l le a g u e t h a t I h a d g iv e n m y p r a c t ic e t o . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE O LIVER NXA SANA: A n d I a s k e d to s e r v e u n d e r h i m a s a p r o f e s s i o n a l a s s is t a n t. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: And he wold then send m e w h e r e v e r h e w a n t e d … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: 10 And he agreed? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . S o y o u m o v e d fr o m a p o s i t io n w h e r e , b e f o r e y o u w e r e a p p r o a c h e d a n d o ffe r e d t h e p o s i ti o n o f b e i n g N D P P, a n d w h e r e y o u h a d n o t a p p li e d t o a n y b o d y f o r th e p o s i ti o n o f N D P P, y o u w e r e a p p r o a c h e d , y o u h a d a p r a c t ic e t h a t y o u w e r e r u n n i n g , y o u a c c e p te d t h is a p p o i n t m e n t b e c a u s e y o u w a n t e d t o s e r v e , y o u c o u l d n ’ t s e ll y o u r p r a c ti c e b u t y o u e ff e c t iv e ly g a v e i t t o s o m e b o d y, t o a n o t h e r a t to r n e y s o t h a t t h e c li e n t s c o u l d b e t a k e n c a r e f o r a c e r t a i n p e r i o d c lo s e t o - o r a b o u t o n e a n d a h a l f y e a r s o r u n d e r t w o y e a r s y o u w e r e a t th e N D P P a n d th e n y o u c a m e b a c k , y o u h a d n o t p r a c ti c e a n y m o r e b e c a u s e y o u 20 h a d g i v e n y o u r p r a c t ic e to s o m e b o d y e ls e , a n d y o u t h e n h a d t o g o t o h i m a n d a s k h i m if h e c o u ld e m p lo y y o u a s a a s s is t a n t? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: A n d th e n h e a g r e e d . MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. He agreed. Just so that you could earn something? Page 110 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA : Ye s a n d a ls o ju s t t o k e e p m e g o i n g C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s a n d t h a t p o s i ti o n c o n t in u e d u n ti l w h e n ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: U n f o r t u n a t e l y C h a ir h e a ls o d e c i d e d t o l e a v e D u r b a n , I t h i n k i t w a s A u g u s t 2 0 1 8 h e w e n t t o p r a c ti c e i n P in e t o w n a n d I d e c i d e d to r e m a in i n D u r b a n b e c a u s e th e s e t u p i n D u r b a n , I ’ m o r i g i n a l ly f r o m U m l a s i To w n s h ip w h ic h i t t h e b i g g e s t t o w n s h i p in K Z N a n d m o s t o f my c l ie n ts i s b a s e d i n t h a t a r e a a n d t h e n e a r e s t c i ty id D u r b a n a n d it ’s e a s y t o g e t t o D u r b a n fr o m a ll t o w n s h ip s 10 and areas around Durban. I t’s a b ig c i t y I p r e fe r – t h e n I r e m a i n e d t h e r e th e n I d e c id e d t h e n t o n e g o t ia t e w i t h a n o th e r c o ll e a g u e w h o I h a d w o r k e d w i t h a t N PA a s o n e o f m y a d v is o r s a ls o , Mr D u m a w h o a l s o th e n s u b s e q u e n t ly r e s i g n e d a t N PA a f t e r I’ d l e ft a n d w e n t b a c k t o p r iv a t e p r a c ti c e , I t h e n a p p r o a c h e d h i m a n d a s k e d t h e s a m e f a v o u r w i t h h i m a n d i t c o n ti n u e d u n t il t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n a l C o u r t p a s s e d th e – t h is ju d g m e n t . T h e r e a f t e r I t h e n d e c i d e d t o – I o n l y o p e n e d l a s t y e a r I th in k it w a s a r o u n d S e p t e m b e r. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s w a s th is n o w l ik e o p e n in g a n e w p r a c t ic e ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA: 20 I’m opening a new p r a c ti c e a l t o g e t h e r. CHAIRPERSON: A l t o g e th e r ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A: Ye s u n d e r a d i ff e r e n t name. CHAIRPERSON: I s t h e r e a n y s i g n i fi c a n c e t o d i ff e r e n t n a m e , n o t r e a l ly ? Page 111 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: N o I’ m s a y i n g – n o t r e a ll y b e c a u s e i t ’s t h e s a m e p e r s o n w h o is t h e r e . CHAIRPERSON: Okay so how did – and then of course the C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t d e c i d e d t h a t y o u s h o u ld p a y b a c k t h e m o n e y. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. A n d a s I r e c a l l t h e j u d g m e n t it c o n te m p l a te d t h a t y o u w o u l d p a y b a c k th e w h o l e a m o u n t t h a t h a d b e e n g iv e n t o y o u , is t h a t r ig h t ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: 10 CHAIRPERSON: Th a t i s r i g h t C h a ir. B u t i n t h e m e a n ti m e y o u h a d u s e d s o m e o f t h e m o n e y to e a r n a l iv in g ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: Have you paid back that money? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: I had used it yes. N o C h a ir. N o y o u – w h y is th a t ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXA SANA: Because I don’t have it C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u d o n ’ t h a v e t h e m o n e y ? MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Ye s o k a y n o th a t ’s f in e , I j u s t w a n t e d to u n d e r s ta n d w h a t i m p a c t th is m a y h a v e h a d o n y o u r l if e , t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . A n y t h i n g a r is i n g M r Pr e to r i u s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : CHAIRPERSON: N o C h a ir. Ye s t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r N x a s a n a w e a p p r e c ia t e t h a t y o u h a v e q u i te a f e w t i m e s t o g iv e e v i d e n c e a n d s h a r e w i t h th e Page 112 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 Commission what happened, thank you very much. MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k s C h a ir Yo u a r e e x c u s e d t h a n k y o u . W e a r e g o i n g t o t a k e t h e te a a d j o u r n m e n t n o w b u t I th i n k w e ’ ll t a k e a li t t le m o r e t h a n fi f t e e n m i n u t e s t o a ls o a l lo w f o r w h a t e v e r l o g i s t ic a l a r r a n g e m e n ts m a y b e m a d e o r d o y o u th i n k fi f te e n m in u t e s w il l b e e n o u g h ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I c a n ’ t s a y C h a ir [ i n d is ti n c t m ic s w it c h e d o ff ] . CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N e x t tr a n c e o f e v i d e n c e w h ic h w i ll b e t h e S A B C e v id e n c e . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y w e w il l a d j o u r n i t ’s n o w fi v e p a s t tw e l v e a n d r e s u m e a t t w e n ty f iv e p a s t tw e lv e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M s N o r m a n a r e y o u r e a d y ? 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : G o o d a f te r n o o n M r C h a i r m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s g o o d a f t e r n o o n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . Ye s t h a n k y o u . I a m r e a d y thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Mr C h a ir m a n to d a y w e c o n ti n u e w it h t h e Page 113 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 e v i d e n c e o f t h e S A B C t h e C h a i r w o u l d r e c a l l t h a t i n i t ia ll y w e c a ll e d t h e – w e le d th e e v i d e n c e o f Mr S u n d a r a m a n d th a t o f Mr S c o t t . c o n ti n u e fr o m t h a t e v i d e n c e . So we B u t C h a ir h a s i n fr o n t o f h i m q u it e a n u m b e r o f d o c u m e n ts w h i c h I m a y w it h y o u r l e a v e C h a ir ju s t i d e n ti fy q u ic k ly ? C h a i r y o u – t h e c o n t in u a ti o n f o r t h e S A B C i s C C C h a ir h a d w h a t h a d p l a c e d b e fo r e C h a ir C h a i r w il l s e e t h a t C C 5 w a s o n c e p la c e d b e f o r e C h a ir a t t h e ti m e w h e n M r S u n d a r a m a n d M r Sc o t t w e r e t e s ti fy in g b u t t h e n w e c o n t i n u e fr o m t h e r e C h a ir. W e h a v e C C 6 w h i c h c o n ti n u e s u p t o 1 6 – Vo l u m e 1 6 t h e v o lu m e s a r e i n t h e … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u s a y t h a t t h e E x h i b i ts r e l a ti n g t o S A B C c o m e u n d e r E x h ib i t C C . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O f t h e m y e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A ll o f t h e m ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A ll o f t h e m C h a ir y e s . CHAIRPERSON: And we have Exhibit CC1 up to? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : U p t o 2 4 a s o f to d a y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t t h o s e th a t h a v e b e e n h a n d e d i n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr e a d y a r e … 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Up to 5. CHAIRPERSON: Up to Exhibit CC5? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: I f C h a i r c o u l d a d m i t t h o s e a n d w e w i ll id e n t i fy th e m a s a n d w h e n t h e w i t n e s s e s t e s ti fy a n d t h e y a r e b e f o r e th e Page 114 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 R e g is tr a r m o s t o f t h e m . C h a ir m i g h t I j u s t i n d ic a te t h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e t h e y g o i n g t o b e o u t o f s e q u e n c e ? I s e e E x h i b it C C 2 3 h e r e b u t a ls o t h e fi l e s th a t I h a v e g o t h e r e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Tw o o f t h e m d o n o t in d ic a te o n th e s p i n e w h a t e x h i b i t o th e r t h a n t h e y a r e – w h a t e x h i b i ts t h e y a r e o t h e r th a n t h a t th e y a r e e x h i b i t s C C a n d t h e n t h i s o n e r e f le c ts th a t it is Ex h ib i t C C 2 0 a n d … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To 2 4 . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t g o e s u p t o Ex h ib i t C C 2 4 . 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s C h a ir. I h a d o p e n e d f o r C h a ir – I a s k e d R e g i s t r a r t o o p e n f o r C h a ir C C 2 4 is th e s t a te m e n t o f t h e w i tn e s s t h a t w e a r e g o i n g to l e a d fir s t . T h e C h a ir p e r s o n M r M a k h a th i n i t h a t i s – h is s t a t e m e n t is C C 2 4 . A n d th e o n e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t w e – b u t w e h a v e n o t b e e n m a r k i n g th e s t a t e w i t – w i tn e s s s ta t e m e n t s a s E x h i b it in t h e m s e lv e s is i t n o t ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: No. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e h a v e b e e n – h a v e w e n o t b e e n m a r k i n g t h e w h o le fi le t h a t c o n ta i n s th e s t a te m e n t a n d th e a n n e x u r e s ? A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : 20 C h a ir t h e s a m e te a m t h a t b u n d l e s i s t h e s a m e th a t d id th is b u t w h a t th e y d o th e y w o u l d s ta r t w i t h t h e fir s t s t a te m e n t . I t w o u ld b e C C 2 0 a n d th e n u p t o 2 4 a s i n t h is c a s e t h e r e i s a d i v i d e r in b e t w e e n a n d th a t d iv i d e r h ig h l ig h ts t h a t t h i s i s 2 0 , th is is 2 1 , th is is 2 2 to 2 4 s o t h a t … CHAIRPERSON: J a n o , n o t h a t – th a t – t h e f a c t th a t t h e y h a v e d o n e t h a t o n t h e s p in e i s h e l p f u l . Page 115 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: I n t h e s e n s e t h a t o n e c a n s e e fr o m th e s p i n e o f th e fi le t h a t i t c o n t a i n s E x h i b i t C C 2 0 u p to E x h ib it C C 2 4 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I w a s j u s t s a y in g t h a t th e w a y w e h a v e d o n e th e m b e f o r e a s I r e c a ll . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: I s f o r a ll i n te n ts a n d p u r p o s e s a n y t h i n g th a t i s i n a p a r t ic u l a r fi l e w o u l d b e u n d e r o n e e x h ib i t n u m b e r. 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w e c a n m a k e d o w i t h th is a r r a n g e m e n t. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: At least because it does show that even though there a r e m a n y e x h ib i ts … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Va r i o u s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I n o n e f il e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: B u t i t d o e s i n d i c a t e w h i c h o n e s th e y a r e a n d w h e r e t h e y a r e to b e f o u n d . 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Then the Chair they con – yes. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w e – b u t n o w t h e o n ly t h i n g is t h a t y o u s a id t h a t Page 116 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 t h e o n e s t h a t h a v e b e e n a d m it t e d u n d e r E x h i b i t C C g o u p to C C 5 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d n o w i f w e i m m e d i a t e ly m o v e to M r M a k h a t h i n i ’s evidence. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w il l b e j u m p i n g to E x h i b i t C C 2 0 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: T h a t w i ll n o t lo o k v e r y g o o d t o a n y b o d y r e a d i n g t h e tr a n s c r ip t a n d tr y i n g to fo ll o w w h e n y o u ju m p fr o m Ex h ib i t C C 5 to 10 Exhibit 20. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : 2 0 y e s . C h a i r t h e – t h e o n ly e x p la n a t i o n I h a v e is t h a t t h e s ta t e m e n ts a r e p a c k a g e d a s t h e y a r e r e c e iv e d b y t h e t e a m t h a t p a c k a g e s t h e m . B e c a u s e y o u w ill f in d t h a t f o r in s ta n c e C C 5 M s Va n B il jo n ’s s ta t e m e n t t h a t w a s r e c e iv e d a w h il e a g o a n d t h e n i f y o u g o to C C 6 a n d y o u c o n ti n u e w i th th o s e y o u w il l fi n d t h a t th o s e s t a te m e n ts s o m e o f t h e m c a m e q u i te e a r ly b u t in t e r m s o f t h e p r o g r a m m i n g o f t h e w i tn e s s e s a n d th e w a y y o u w a n t t o p r e s e n t t h e ir e v i d e n c e y o u f in d th a t th e o n e t h a t is s u p p o s e d to s t a r t a s a l l th e e n t i ti e s h a v e d o n e th e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d y o u w ill f i n d t h e n h is 20 s t a te m e n t i n 2 0 . Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja you see. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t i s n o t t h e – th e fa u l t o f t h e te a m t h a t is p r e p a r i n g i t b e c a u s e t h e y d o n o t k n o w h o w t h e e v id e n c e l e a d e r s a r e g o i n g t o – w h a t th e ir p la n i s i f th e y a r e n o t t o ld . Page 117 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : To s a y t h is w il l b e t h e s e q u e n c e o f th e w i tn e s s e s s o t h a t t h e n t h e y m a k e i t t h e e x h i b it s to f o l lo w th a t s e q u e n c e . We can d e a l w i t h i t i n t h is w a y b e c a u s e tr y i n g t o r e d o i t w o u l d t a k e t o o m u c h ti m e b u t I t h i n k it is g o i n g t o b e i m p o r t a n t t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e le a d e r s g iv e t h e m t h e s e q u e n c e s o t h a t w e c o u l d s t a r t n ic e ly w i t h E x h ib i t C C 6 , 7 ,8 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i n o t h e r w o r d s i f M r M a k h a th i n i w a s p l a n n e d t o b e 10 t h e f ir s t w it n e s s t o d a y i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n m u c h m o r e c o n v e n ie n t f o r h i s e x h i b i t t o b e E x h i b i t C C 6 t h e n w e c o n t i n u e r a th e r t h a n s t a r t w i t h E x h i b i t 20. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d g o u p t o 2 4 m a y b e t h e n e x t o n e w o u l d b e E x h ib i t 6 , 7 , 8 a n d t h e n i t b e c o m e s m ix e d u p . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t is fi n e . L e t u s d o i t th is w a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 20 B u t g o i n g f o r w a r d w il l t h e l e g a l te a m p l e a s e m a k e s u r e th a t w e fo ll o w th e s e q u e n c e t h a t w il l b e f o l lo w e d i n a c t u a l h e a r in g . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h e n C h a ir y o u w i ll h a v e th e – i f I m a y ju s t h i g h li g h t t o C h a ir t h e o n e b u n d l e – t h e b u n d l e s C C 2 4 w h ic h is a v e r y l a r g e e x h i b it t h a t is t h e s ta t e m e n t o f Mr Z ik o d e w h ic h h a s te n Page 118 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 le v e r a r c h f il e s . T h a t w il l n o t b e d e a l t w i t h th is w e e k C h a ir b u t i t i s n o t in fr o n t o f C h a ir n o w i t is b e fo r e t h e R e g is t r a r. T h e s e a r e t h e m a n y f il e s t h a t a r e th e r e . A n d C h a ir w ill o b s e r v e t h a t th e – th e o th e r b u n d le t h a t h a s th e l e g i s l a ti o n i t is s i m p ly E x h i b i t C C a n d t h e n i t s a y s l e g is l a t i o n bundle. A n d t h e r e p o r ts a n d o th e r d o c u m e n t s a l s o E x h i b it C C a n d w i t h o u t t h e e x h ib i t n u m b e r b e c a u s e w e r e s e r v in g t h o s e n u m b e r s f o r t h e w i t n e s s e s b u t n o w t h a t w e c o u ld p e r h a p s g iv e th e m E x h i b i t l e g is l a t i o n b u n d l e m a k e i t E x h i b i t 2 5 a n d t h e n t h e E x h ib it C C R e p o r ts w e c a n m a k e it E x h i b i t 2 6 . T h e o t h e r r e p o r ts a n d d o c u m e n t s . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Yo u a r e – y o u a r e r e q u e s ti n g t h a t t h e o n e f o r le g i s l a ti o n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Be Exhibit CC? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : 2 5 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 25. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 25. CHAIRPERSON: A n d th e o n e f o r R e p o r t s a n d o t h e r d o c u m e n t s t o b e Exhibit CC26. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 C h a ir I b e g y o u r p a r d o n , I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . C o u l d y o u m a k e t h i s – Ex h ib i t C C L e g i s l a ti o n 2 6 . I b e g y o u r pardon. T h e r e i s a d o c u m e n t I a m g o i n g to h a n d u p t o y o u w h ic h is a lr e a d y m a r k e d 2 5 . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e o n e f o r l e g i s l a ti o n w o u l d b e E x h i b i t 2 6 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : 2 6 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: CC26. Page 119 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : And the other one 27. Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y t h e n th e o n e f o r r e p o r t s a n d o t h e r d o c u m e n t s w i ll b e E x h i b i t C C 2 7 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A s C h a ir p l e a s e s . T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: J u s t a r r a n g e fo r t h e s e t o b e m a r k e d a c c o r d i n g ly during the lunch break. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e y b e m a r k e d . Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t s h a r e th e in f o r m a t i o n w i th o t h e r m e m b e r s o f t h e 10 le g a l te a m . I t – s o th a t t h e is s u e o f m a k i n g s u r e t h a t t h e e x h i b i t n u m b e r s a r e in li n e w i t h th e s e q u e n c e o f w it n e s s e s c a ll e d . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir. I w il l d o th a t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: C h a i r t h e – t h e r e a r e ju s t t w o o t h e r e x h i b i t s t h a t I w o u l d li k e to h a n d u p t o y o u C h a ir w h i c h e m a n a t e f r o m t h e e v e n ts o f th is w e e k e n d . T h e r e i s fo r i n s t a n c e o n e o f t h e i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n s w h o h a s r e s p o n d e d I b e g l e a v e t o h a n d i t u p th a t is C C 2 5 . I w i ll ju s t c h e c k y e s t h a n k y o u C h a ir. H e i s r e s p o n d i n g t o th e e v id e n c e o f s o m e o f t h e w i t n e s s e s . Th e r e a r e a b o u t t h r e e w i t n e s s e s t h a t h e 20 r e s p o n d s t o . W e d e c i d e d t o m a k e h is r e s p o n s e s e p a r a t e b u n d l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o th is fi le w i ll b e m a r k e d E x h i b i t C C 2 5 . I t c o n t a i n s t h e s t a te m e n t o r i s i t s ta t e m e n ts ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. Page 120 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 C H A I R P E R S O N : S t a t e m e n ts o f … ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: N o i t is o n e s t a t e m e n t b u t r e s p o n d i n g t o v a r io u s 3 .3 N o tic e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w e ll i t s a y s s t a te m e n ts b u t i t is th e s t a te m e n t o f M r J a m e s Br a d fo r d M a t t h e w s t h a t f il e w il l b e m a r k e d E x h i b i t C C 2 5 . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: C h a ir I a m – s o r r y. T h e r e a r e tw o s t a te m e n ts fr o m o n e p e r s o n . I th i n k w h e n y o u a s k e d is t w o s t a te m e n ts – t h e r e is t w o s t a t e m e n t s i f C h a ir h a s a l o o k a t th e i n d e x t h e r e is o n e w h e r e h e r e s p o n d s t o o n e p e r s o n a n d t h e o th e r o n e w h e r e h e r e s p o n d s 10 t o a n o t h e r p e r s o n . S o i t is t w o s ta t e m e n ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : B y th e s a m e p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A n d t h e n I a m – I w o u l d li k e t o h a n d u p a s w e l l t h e s e d o c u m e n ts C h a i r th e y h a v e been – we have requested them as a result of the events of the w e e k e n d w h ic h th e w i t n e s s is g o i n g t a l k to . T h e y a r e E x h ib i t – w e h a v e m a r k e d th e m E x h i b i t C C 2 3 A a n d Ex h i b it C C 2 3 B a n d a ls o E x h ib i t C C 2 3 C . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON: What are they? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: They are the media statements and the r e s p o n s e s th a t th e S A B C h a s a ls o f il e d a n d t h e y a l s o c o n t a i n s o m e o f t h e r e s ig n a ti o n le t t e r s o f s o m e o f t h e b o a r d m e m b e r s . Th e w i t n e s s is g o i n g t o t a l k t o th a t . B u t t h e y w il l b e p r o p e r ly p la c e d in t h e b u n d l e s o n c e h e h a s fi n is h e d te s t i fy in g . Page 121 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C o u ld y o u p la c e t h e b u n d l e fo r th e w it n e s s in fr o n t t h e w i t n e s s . T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: T h e w i t n e s s w i ll k n o w w h ic h – w h i c h b u n d le y o u r e fe r r i n g t o w h e n y o u r e f e r t o th e m ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: When – yes, yes. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir w e w i ll a s s is t h i m . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is f in e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h e w i t n e s s is M r B o n g u m u s a E m m a n u e l M a k h a th i n i h e i s t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e SABC board. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C a n h e b e s w o r n i n M r C h a ir m a n ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s p l e a s e a d m i n is t e r th e o a th o r a ffir m a t i o n ? R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: 20 M y n a m e is B o n g u m u s a E m m a n u e l M a k h a t h i n i. R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: N o . REGISTRAR: D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r conscience? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Ye s . Page 122 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e tr u th ; t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th i n g b u t th e tr u th ; i f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: S o h e l p m e G o d . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y b e s e a t e d Mr M a k h a t h i n i . Yo u may proceed then Ms Norman? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . Mr M a k h a th i n i is i t c o r r e c t t h a t y o u a r e th e c h a ir p e r s o n o f th e S A B C 10 board? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Ye s i t is c o r r e c t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s w h e n w e r e y o u a p p o i n t e d ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I : I was appointed on the 17th October 2017. A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : H o w m a n y m e m b e r s o f t h e b o a r d a r e t h e r e n o w c u r r e n tly a s y o u s p e a k ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I : Th e r e i s tw e l v e k n o w n e x e c u tiv e d ir e c t o r s a n d t h r e e e x e c u tiv e d ir e c t o r s . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . N o w c o u l d ju s t b r i e fl y ju s t g i v e th e 20 C h a ir p e r s o n y o u r q u a l i fic a ti o n s a n d w h e t h e r y o u h a v e e v e r s e r v e d o n any other boards before you joined the SABC? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H IN I: Thank you. My – C h a ir p e r s o n m y q u a l i fi c a t io n s I h o l d a G e n e r a l M a n a g e m e n t P r o g r a m fr o m H a r v a r d U n iv e r s i ty. I h a v e a M a s t e r ’s D e g r e e i n B u s i n e s s M a n a g e m e n t fr o m U n iv e r s it y o f J o h a n n e s b u r g . Page 123 of 216 I hold a BA Degree 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 s p e c i a lis i n g i n B u s in e s s M a n a g e m e n t a n d G e o g r a p h y. I a ls o h a v e a D i p l o m a i n H R fr o m t h e U n iv e r s i ty o f Z u l u la n d . I h a v e a D i p l o m a i n – C e r t i fi c a t e s o r r y in F in a n c e a n d Ec o n o m ic s . I m a tr ic u l a t e d in 1 9 9 5 fr o m D l a m v u s o S e n io r S e c o n d a r y S c h o o l K w a Z u lu N a t a l. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s t h a n k y o u . A n d i n y o u r s t a te m e n t w h ic h i s b e fo r e y o u w e h a v e a lr e a d y o p e n e d i t f o r y o u is u n d e r 2 3 – C C 2 3 y o u h a v e s e e n y o u r s ta t e m e n ts . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Ye s . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h i s is t h e o n e t h a t i s in fr o n t o f y o u . A n d 10 t h e n n e x t t o y o u th e r e is t w o b u n d l e s w h ic h I w i ll ta k e y o u fr o m t i m e to ti m e r e f e r y o u to t h o s e w h ic h is E x h i b it 2 6 a n d 2 7 a n d y o u w i ll h a v e n e x t t o y o u a l s o E x h i b i t 2 3 A t o C . Yo u h a v e t h o s e ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: y o u r s ta t e m e n t . Thank you. Now let us go back then to Yo u h a v e p r e p a r e d t h i s s t a te m e n t a n d i t s i g n e d – a p p e a r s – t h e r e is a p a g e 8 . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Is t h a t s i g n a t u r e t h a t a p p e a r s t h e r e ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Ye s i t is . 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Is t h a t y o u r s t a te m e n t ? M R B O N G U M U SA E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H IN I: It is m y s t a te m e n t C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h e n d i d y o u s ig n i t ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: I s i g n e d i t o n F r i d a y l e t m e ju s t g o t h r o u g h th e … Page 124 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Page 8. M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: O n t h e 2 9 t h A u g u s t. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d t h is s t a t e m e n t th a t y o u s i g n e d d i d y o u s i g n i t v o l u n t a r ily ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Ye s I d i d . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . And are the contents of your s t a te m e n t tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Ye s i t is tr u e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Th a n k y o u . L e t u s t h e n – l e t u s d e a l 10 w i t h y o u r s t a t e m e n t . I w ill t a k e y o u b e c a u s e y o u h a v e a lr e a d y g iv e n u s y o u r e x p e r ie n c e a n d y o u h a v e g iv e n u s y o u r q u a li f ic a t i o n s . C o u l d y o u ju s t g iv e th e C h a i r y o u r e x p e r i e n c e w h e r e – t h e b o a r d s t h a t y o u s e r v e d on? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: W e l l b e f o r e t h a t I m a y h a v e m is s e d i t b u t m a y b e M r M a k h a th i n i o u t o f h u m i li t y d i d n o t m e n ti o n a ll h is q u a li f ic a ti o n s h e h a s . I see he has got also B Paed Degree. M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I th i n k I m i s s e d i t. T h a n k y o u C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON: N o h e h a s g o t v e r y g o o d q u a li f ic a ti o n s . H e is a t e a c h e r. H e h a s g o t M a s te r ’s i n C o m m e r c e a n d h e h a s g o t – b u t I th i n k he was – he was humble. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir. Ye s c o u l d y o u t h e n Page 125 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 ju s t e x p l a i n t o C h a ir w h e r e – I s e e y o u h a v e s e r v e d a s E x e c u tiv e B o a r d m e m b e r is v a r i o u s c o m p a n i e s c o u l d y o u ju s t h i g h li g h t t h o s e p l e a s e ? M R B O N G U M U SA E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Ye s I w a s a n Ex e c u ti v e b o a r d m e m b e r f o r a B r i t is h A m e r i c a n To b a c c o f o r S o u th e r n A f r i c a . I a ls o s e r v e a s E x e c u t iv e b o a r d m e m b e r fo r S o u th A f r ic a n Br e w e r i e s . I w a s a b o a r d m e m b e r fo r S A B Tr i F u n d . Board member for Ekoleni O u tr e a c h W o r l d O u tr e a c h C e n t r e a d v i s o r y b o a r d . S p o r t Tr u s t a s a b o a r d m e m b e r. I a ls o s e r v e i n th e I w a s a ls o a b o a r d m e m b e r f o r I n d u s tr y f o r R e s p o n s ib le U s e o f A lc o h o l . I a ls o s e r v e a s t h e Pr e s id e n t 10 f o r C o n v o c a t i o n fo r U n i v e r s i ty o f Z u l u la n d a n d th e s a m e I w a s a c o u n c il m e m b e r f o r th e U n iv e r s i ty o f Z u lu l a n d . D u r i n g my d a y s a s a s t u d e n t I w a s p a r t o f t h e s t u d e n t r e p r e s e n ta t iv e c o u n c i l f o r U n iv e r s i ty o f Z u l u l a n d . T h o s e a r e t h e p o s i t io n s t h a t I h a v e s e r v e d in . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d t h e r e i s o n e p o s i t io n th a t w e s p o k e a b o u t th is m o r n i n g w h e r e y o u s e r v e d i n o n e o r g a n is a t i o n t h a t in v o lv e d o n e o f Pr e s i d e n t Z u m a ’s w iv e s . C o u ld y o u j u s t t e l l t h e C h a ir a b o u t t h a t? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H IN I: Ye s . I w a s a ls o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o n g i N g e m a Z u m a F o u n d a t i o n w h ic h is t h e 20 f o u n d a t io n th a t d e a l s w it h d i a b e t e s . I s e r v e i n th a t fo u n d a ti o n a s a n NGO. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I n w h a t c a p a c it y w e r e y o u s e r v i n g ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: I w a s th e C h a i r p e r s o n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e C h a i r p e r s o n . A r e y o u s ti ll s e r v i n g ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H ATH I N I : Page 126 of 216 I g o t a p p o i n te d o n t h e 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 17th October 2017 I resigned on the 18th October 2017. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . Th a n k y o u . Then in paragraphs 3 and 4 you deal with the approach that was made to you by the members o f t h e c o m m i s s io n th a t is th e i n v e s t ig a t o r s o f t h e c o m m i s s io n a n d y o u a r ti c u la t e i n p a r a g r a p h 3 t h e m a n d a te o f t h e S A B C . Could you just r o u g h l y t e l l t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t i s y o u r – t h e m a n d a t e o f th e S A B C a n d w h a t is t h e f u n c ti o n o f th e b o a r d i n m a k i n g s u r e t h a t t h a t m a n d a t e is c a r r i e d o u t ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H IN I: 10 T h e S o u t h A fr ic a n B r o a d c a s ti n g C o r p o r a ti o n is o n e o f th e k e y c r i ti c a l p ill a r s o f o u r d e m o c r a c y d e li v e r i n g c o n t e n t to m il li o n s o f S o u t h A f r ic a n s o n a d a i ly b a s is a n d t h e y d o t h a t b a s ic a l ly i n fo u r t e e n la n g u a g e s a n d m a k in g s u r e t h a t e v e r y S o u t h A f r i c a n h a s a n o p p o r t u n it y t o a i r t h e ir v i e w s a n d b e c o v e r e d i n o n e w a y o r th e o t h e r. A n d i t i s o n e o f t h e t r e a s u r e s o f th is c o u n tr y t h a t n e e d s t o b e d e f e n d e d a n d p r o te c t e d a t a l l c o s t s . So the r o l e o f th e b o a r d r e a l ly i s t o p r o v id e t h a t s tr a te g i c d ir e c ti o n a n d g u i d a n c e t o t h e e n t i ty. B u t a l s o m a k e s u r e t h a t o u r – t h e i n d e p e n d e n c e o f t h e i n s t it u ti o n a n d i m p a r t i a li t y is p r o t e c t e d a t a ll c o s ts . B u t a ls o s u p p o r t t h e e x e c u ti v e s i n e x e c u t in g w h a t h a s b e e n a p p r o v e d b y th e 20 board. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o – a n d i n t e r m s o f a c c o u n ta b il it y who is the board – who does the board report to? M R B O N G U M U SA E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I : I n t e r m s o f y o u w o u ld h a v e s e e n in t h e p a c k th a t t h e r e w a s a M a tu g a n a ju d g m e n t w h ic h w a s d e li v e r e d in 2 0 1 7 . I t c l e a r ly s ta t e s t h a t t h e b o a r d o f t h e S A B C is i n Page 127 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 c h a r g e o f t h e a ff a i r s a n d t h e r u n n i n g o f th e b u s in e s s o f th e S A B C . S o t h a t is b a s ic a l ly w h e r e i t is a n d t h e n t h e e x e c u tiv e s o f c o u r s e r u n t h e d a y t o d a y o p e r a t io n a l r e s p o n s i b i li t ie s s i ts w i t h t h e e x e c u t iv e t e a m . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . MR B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H IN I: But the board is a c c o u n t a b l e t o t h e M i n is t e r i n t e r m s o f m e e t in g w h a t h a s b e e n a g r e e d as the goals that are contained in the shareholder compact. We then r e p o r t a n d a c c o u n t a b l e to t h e P o r t f o l i o C o m m i t t e e i n P a r l ia m e n t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d t h e e x e c u ti v e s o f th e S A B C w h o 10 d o t h e y r e p o r t to ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H ATH I N I : T h e e x e c u ti v e s o f t h e S A B C w h ic h i s t h e G r o u p C E O , C F O a n d t h e C O O r e p o r ts i n t o t h e board. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s t h a n k y o u . N o w th e n I p a r a g r a p h 5 y o u s k e tc h o u t th e c ir c u m s t a n c e s u n d e r w h ic h a r e a p p o in t e d a n d w h a t t h e p o s i t io n w a s a t t h e S A B C a t t h a t t i m e . C o u l d y o u j u s t b r i e fl y j u s t a d v is e t h e C h a i r w h a t r e p o r ts w e r e t h e r e w h e n y o u w e r e a p p o i n t e d w h ic h y o u d e a l w i t h i n t h a t p a r a g r a p h ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: I g o t a p p o i n t e d in t o th e 20 b o a r d i n O c t o b e r 2 0 1 7 a s p a r t o f t h e n e w b o a r d a p p o i n te d f o r a p e r io d o f f iv e y e a r s . A n d t h e n e w b o a r d b a s ic a l l y w a s h a n d e d o v e r t h e b a to n b y th e in t e r i m b o a r d w h ic h h a d h a d – w a s r u n n in g f o r a b o u t s ix m o n t h s a n d t h e in t e r i m b o a r d c a m e i n a f t e r t h e P a r li a m e n t h a d a d o p t e d t h e fi n a l r e p o r t t h a t w a s d o n e b y t h e A d d o c o m m i t t e e . And that report b a s ic a lly l o o k e d a t th e f it n e s s o f th e b o a r d a t t h e t i m e . A n d o u t o f t h a t Page 128 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 in q u ir y t h e n t h e in t e r i m b o a r d w a s p u t i n p l a c e i n Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 7 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d y o u a ls o a l lu d e in th a t p a r a g r a p h to t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r ’s R e p o r t . MR BONGUMUSA EMMANUEL M A K H AT H IN I: Ye s . The Addo C o m m i t t e e I n q u ir y c a m e a f t e r t h e P u b lic P r o te c to r ’s R e p o r t o f 2 0 1 4 a n d b a s ic a lly t h a t r e p o r t in d ic a t e d t h i n g s th a t w e r e n o t g o i n g w e l l a t th e S A B C s o t h e – P a r li a m e n t t h e n s e n t in t h e A d d o C o m m i t t e e t o a s s i s t i n d o i n g a n i n q u i r y i n to t h e f i tn e s s o f th e b o a r d a t t h e ti m e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 10 Thank you. O n y o u r le f t h a n d s i d e M r M a k h a th i n i t h e r e is – y o u w il l f i n d t h e r e is a b u n d le w h i c h is m a r k e d E x h i b i t 2 7 w h ic h i s t h e – j a . If y o u h a v e a lo o k a t t h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e m i n e a r e n o t m a r k e d y e t. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: M s N o r m a n y o u w il l h a v e to s a y w h e t h e r i t is t h e r e p o r t s a n d o t h e r d o c u m e n ts o n e is t h e le g is l a ti o n o n e ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: i t is th e – I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir i t is r e p o r t s a n d o t h e r d o c u m e n ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h e y w i ll b e m a r k e d b y lu n c h 20 ti m e o n t h e s p i n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Thank you. Th a n k y o u . If you turn to p a g e 1 o f t h a t y o u w il l s e e it is a le t t e r d a t e d t h e 2 4 t h J u n e 2 0 1 9 a d d r e s s e d t o D o c t o r P u w e [? ] o f t h e c o m m i s s io n w h ic h i s s u b m i t t in g t h e s e r e p o r t s t o th e c o m m i s s io n fr o m P a r li a m e n t , d o y o u s e e t h a t? Page 129 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: I s e e i t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d th a t le t t e r is d a t e d 2 4 J u n e fr o m t h e a c ti n g s e c r e ta r y Mr P M C h a u w e [ ? ] A r e y o u t h e r e ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Ye s I a m t h e r e . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u . And then once you page t h r o u g h y o u w i ll s e e t h e r e is a d iv id e r m a r k e d 2 . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Ye s g o t i t. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Th a n k y o u . H a s t h e C h a ir f o u n d i t ? T h a n k y o u . O n t h e r e y o u w il l s e e t h e r e i s S A B C – i f y o u l o o k r ig h t o n 10 t h e r i g h t h a n d s i d e c o r n e r i t is m a r k e d in r e d i t is w r i t t e n S A B C R e p o r t o th e r i n f o r m a ti o n 0 0 2 , d o y o u s e e th a t? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. A n d th a t d o c u m e n t c o m e s fr o m P a r l i a m e n t a n d o n t h e l e f t h a n d c o r n e r i t i s d a t e d 2 7 F e b r u a r y 2017. M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: O k a y g o t i t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u m u s t n o t n o d y o u m u s t s a y y e s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Ye s I h a v e g o t i t. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 It must go on record. Oh you have it thank you very much. M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: J a I g o t it . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d y o u w i ll s e e r ig h t a t t h e – j u s t a t th e b o t t o m y o u w il l s e e it s a y s N a ti o n a l A s s e m b l y a n d i t s a y s C o m m i t t e e R e p o r ts N a ti o n a l A s s e m b ly a n d t h e n i t is w r i t t e n A d - H o c C o m m i t t e e o n t h e S A B C b o a r d In q u ir y i n t o t h e fi t n e s s o f t h e S A B C b o a r d . Page 130 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Ye s I h a v e g o t i t. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Is that correct? A n d th e n – s o i s t h i s r e p o r t t h a t y o u w e r e ta lk in g to ju s t n o w ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I : It i s t h e r e p o r t I w a s r e fe r r i n g t o y e s in d e e d . A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Thank you. Th e n i f y o u p a g e th r o u g h t h e r e is a n o th e r d iv id e r w h ic h I a m g o i n g t o t a k e y o u t o s o r r y. That d iv i d e r w i ll ta k e y o u t o t h e P u b l ic P r o te c t o r ’s R e p o r t a n d I a m g o i n g to ju s t id e n ti fy i t . I t w il l b e a d i v i d e r m a r k e d n u m b e r 1 0 . 10 M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: I h a v e g o t i t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u . A n d t h a t r e p o r t i s t h e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r ’s R e p o r t e n t i tl e d “ W h e n g o v e r n a n c e a n d e t h i c s f a il . ” M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Th a t i s c o r r e c t g o t i t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s is t h a t t h e r e p o r t th a t y o u a r e r e fe r r i n g t o ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: T h a t is th e r e p o r t I w a s r e fe r r i n g t o . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: p l e a s e p u t th a t a s i d e . 20 Ye s th a n k y o u . Thank you. Could you W e a r e g o in g t o c o n t in u e n o w w i th y o u r s t a te m e n t a n d w e w il l g e t b a c k to th e r e p o r ts s o m e o t h e r t i m e . T h a n k you. T h a n k y o u ; y o u h a v e a ls o r e f e r r e d t o t h e ju d g m e n t o f J u d g e M a t o j a n e w h i c h a ls o d e a l t w i t h th e p o w e r s o f t h e b o a r d a n d t h o s e o f t h e M i n i s t e r. M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Ye s I d i d t o u c h o n t h a t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Page 131 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: W h i c h p r o v i d e d g u id a n c e in t e r m s o f w h o i s i n c h a r g e o f th e S A B C b u s i n e s s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . Now then the board then had r e c e i v e d b e f o r e y o u r t i m e I w o u l d i m a g i n e t h e s e t w o d o c u m e n ts a n d y o u w o u ld h a v e d e c id e d t h a t l o o k y o u h a v e t h e s e d o c u m e n t w h a t d i d y o u th e n d o a s a b o a r d i n o r d e r t o m a k e s u r e th a t w h a t e v e r r e m e d i a l a c ti o n s a r e p r o p o s e d b y t h e P u b l ic P r o te c t o r a r e i m p le m e n t e d o r w h a t e v e r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s a r e m a d e b y t h e A d - H o c C o m m i t t e e o f P a r li a m e n t a r e a ls o d e a lt w i t h . 10 M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: S o w h e n w e c a m e i n in 2 0 1 7 O c t o b e r l ik e I in d i c a t e d th a t t h e i n te r i m b o a r d w a s t h e r e fo r a b o u t s ix m o n t h s s o t h e y h a d s t a r te d s o m e o f t h e w o r k . F o r e x a m p le t h e S I U w a s a l r e a d y b r o u g h t i n t o d o fu r t h e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n . B u t th e f o c u s o f th e b o a r d w a s t h e n t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w e i m p l e m e n t th e r e m e d ia l a c ti o n c o m i n g o u t o f th e P u b l ic Pr o te c to r ’s R e p o r t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: A s w e ll a s e n s u r i n g t h a t w h a t c a m e o u t o f t h e A d - H o c C o m m i t t e e R e p o r t t h o s e t w e n t y - fo u r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s w e r e a l s o i m p l e m e n te d . S o a s a b o a r d w e m a d e s u r e 20 t h a t th o s e a r e i m p le m e n t e d d e c i s i v e ly. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . A n d I a m g o i n g t o ju s t t a k e y o u r o u g h ly s o t h a t w e i n c o r p o r a t e t h o s e – i n f a c t w e – y o u d e a l w i t h th e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s a t t h i s s t a g e w e d o n o t h a v e to d e a l w i t h t h e m l a t e r b e c a u s e w e h a v e a l r e a d y o p e n e d t h e s e t w o e x h i b it s . E x h i b i t 2 7 C h a ir R e p o r t s a n d o th e r d o c u m e n ts . Page 132 of 216 If I may just take you to 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 p a r a g r a p h – t o p a g e 5 o f t h a t e x h ib i t? C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h d iv i d e r s h o u l d w e lo o k a t? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir i t w ill b e d iv id e r number 2. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th a t is p a g e 2 5 ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is p a g e 5 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Page 5? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u . I a m ju s t w a it i n g f o r t h e C h a ir to – M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: O n t h e s a m e b u n d le ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S a m e – y e s , y e s o n th e s a m e b u n d l e p a g e 5 . W e j u s t h a v e t o – n o s ta r t fr o m th e b e g i n n i n g . N o , n o , n o fr o m th e b e g in n i n g o f t h e b u n d l e . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A n d t h e n y o u g o to th e d iv i d e r t h a t i s marked number 2. M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: 20 I have got 20, 21. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h I a m s o s o r r y. O h n o , n o t h e o n e o n t h e R e p o r ts I b e g y o u r p a r d o n I t h o u g h t I h a d R e p o r t s a n d o t h e r d o c u m e n ts E x h i b i t 2 7 . I b e g y o u r p a r d o n I th i n k y o u w e r e lo o k i n g a t the – not on your sleeve. CHAIRPERSON: Ja page 5. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Page 5 of that. Page 133 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: G o t i t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u h a v e it t h a n k y o u . N o w i f y o u t u r n to t h a t p a g e y o u w il l f in d t h a t i n p a r t A w h i c h b e g i n s fr o m p a g e 4 . The c o m m i t t e e r e p o r ts o n w h y th a t A d - H o c C o m m i t t e e w a s s e t u p a n d t h e n – b u t i n 1 . 2 th e y – c o u l d y o u j u s t r e a d w h a t th e y s a y in 1 .2 ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: I t i s p a g e ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Page 5. M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: P a g e 5 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I n r e d 0 0 5 o n t h e r ig h t h a n d c o r n e r. 10 M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: 1 0 5 ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 005. 005 on the corner – in the – page 5. CHAIRPERSON: Ja when she… A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y, s o r r y. CHAIRPERSON: The red numbers on the top those are – when she m e n ti o n s p a g e n u m b e r s s h e w il l b e m e n ti o n i n g th o s e r e d n u m b e r s . Yo u w i ll s e e th a t t h e y w il l h a v e 0 0 a n d s o m e t h i n g e ls e b e f o r e 0 0 b u t s h e w i ll o n ly s a y p a g e 5 . F o r e x a m p le s o s h e w i ll n o t s a y 0 0 5 s h e w i ll ju s t s a y p a g e 5 th r o u g h o u t w h e n s h e a s k s y o u q u e s ti o n s , w h e n s h e s a y s p a g e s o a n d s o d o n o t b o t h e r t o l o o k a t t h e 0 0 ’s b e f o r e . O k a y. 20 M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y s o o n th is o n e i t i s p a g e 5 h a v e y o u f o u n d i t? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I : d iv i d e r 5 ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o d iv i d e r 2 . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m u n d e r d iv i d e r 2 . Page 134 of 216 T h a t is u n d e r b u n d le – 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: D iv i d e r 2 . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: I beg your pardon. CHAIRPERSON: B u t e v e n i f y o u d is r e g a r d e d a n y r e fe r e n c e t o th e d iv i d e r y o u j u s t s a y p a g e 5 . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Ye s o k a y. CHAIRPERSON: T h e n y o u s h o u l d b e a b l e t o f in d i t s ta r t i n g fr o m t h e b e g in n i n g o f t h e d o c u m e n t – o f t h e b u n d l e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: I a m n o w o n p a g e 5 . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a y o u a r e t h e r e o k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir. T h a n k y o u . C o u l d y o u t h e n j u s t r e a d fr o m – i n p a r a g r a p h 1 . 2 w h a t i s i t that the committee had recorded there? I n f a c t y o u m u s t s ta r t fr o m p a g e 4 f o r i t to m a k e s e n s e . 1 . 1 . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: 1 . 1 p a g e 4 . “The In tr o d u c ti o n . The N a t io n a l Assembly e s t a b li s h e d t h e A d - H o c C o m m i t t e e o n t h e S A B C b o a r d I n q u ir y t o in q u i r e i n t e r a li a in t o t h e f i tn e s s o f t h e S A B C b o a r d t o d i s c h a r g e it s d u t ie s a s p r e s c r i b e d 20 in t h e B r o a d c a s t in g A c t N u m b e r 4 o f 1 9 9 9 a n d a n y o th e r a p p lic a b l e l e g is l a t i o n . 1 .2 T h is fo ll o w e d a f t e r w id e s p r e a d c o n c e r n s fr o m t h e p u b lic a b o u t t h e S A B C a b i li ty t o e x e r c i s e i ts m a n d a te a s a p u b l ic b r o a d c a s t e r. In a d d i ti o n t h e b o a r d c o u l d n o l o n g e r c o n v e n e c o r r e c t m e e ti n g s a s s e v e r a l n o n - Page 135 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 e x e c u tiv e b o a r d m e m b e r s h a d b e e n r e m o v e d o r h a d r e s ig n e d . ” A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d t h e n in 1 .4 ju s t s o t h a t w e c a n m o v e t o t h e n e x t q u e s t io n . 1 . 4 . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: “ 1 .3 T h e S A B C h a s c o n s e q u e n tl y d e v ia t e d fr o m i ts mandate as th e p u b l ic b r o a d c a s te r and fr o m p r o v i d in g a p l a tf o r m a n d a v o ic e to a ll S o u t h A fr ic a n s t o p a r t ic ip a t e i n t h e d e m o c r a ti c d is p e n s a ti o n o f t h e 10 R e p u b l ic . T h e S A B C h a s a ls o fa il e d t o p r o v i d e a n important p l a t fo r m fo r c o m m u n i ty involvement, e d u c a ti o n a n d e n t e r t a i n m e n t r e f l e c ti n g th e r i c h a n d d iv e r s e c u l tu r a l h e r i t a g e o f S o u t h A fr i c a . ” A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s 1 . 3 is e q u a ll y i m p o r t a n t n o t t h a t w h e r e those I do not say you must read are not important but I think because it w il l r e l a te t o m o s t o f th e a s p e c ts t h a t y o u a r e g o i n g to d e a li n g w i t h . I a m s o r r y I ju m p e d c o u l d y o u ju s t g o b a c k t o 1 . 3 a s w e l l . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: 1 . 3 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . 20 “ 1 .3 T h e r e is p r i m a f a c i e e v i d e n c e t h a t t h e S A B C p r i m a r y m a n d a t e a s a N a ti o n a l P u b l ic B r o a d c a s t e r h a s b e e n c o m p r o m is e d b y t h e l a p s e o f g o v e r n a n c e a n d m a n a g e m e n t w i t h i n th e S A B C w h ic h u l ti m a t e l y c o n tr i b u t e d t o t h e S A B C – t o t h e b o a r d ’s in a b i li ty t o d is c h a r g e i ts fi d u c ia r y r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s . ” Page 136 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s n o w t h e n y o u g e t i n t o t h e S A B C a n d a s a n e w b o a r d a n d h o w d id t h e s e m a t te r s t h a t h a v e b e e n i d e n t i fi e d h e r e b y P a r l ia m e n t – h o w d i d th e y a ff e c t y o u a s th e n e w b o a r d if t h e y did? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H IN I: Th e r e a l i ty is t h e s i tu a ti o n th e S A B C f i n d s i t s e l f t o d a y i t is a r e s u l t o f a ll o f t h e s e l a p s e s t h a t h a p p e n e d o v e r p r e v i o u s y e a r s a s a r e s u l t o f f a i lu r e b y p r e v i o u s b o a r d s a n d m a n a g e m e n t t o d o w h a t w a s r e s p o n s i b l e a n d w h a t in l i n e w i t h t h e m a n d a te o f t h e S A B C . 10 In terms of adherence to our own p o li c i e s , in t e r m s o f m a k i n g s u r e th a t t h e r e i s p r u d e n c e i n t h e m a n n e r in w h i c h r e s o u r c e s o f t h e S A B C w e r e u s e d i t w a s a l l c o m p r o m is e d a n d t h a t is w h y w e f in d o u r s e l v e s w h e r e w e a r e . B u t a s a b o a r d w h a t w e h a d t h e n to d o w a s t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w e i m p l e m e n t th e s e r e m e d i a l a c ti o n a n d t a k e c o r r e c t iv e m e a s u r e s t o a d d r e s s t h e is s u e s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : D id – Ms N o r m a n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u d e li b e r a t e ly l e a v e o u t 1 .5 ? I t a p p e a r s t o b e q u i te i m p o r ta n t . 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t is a l s o i m p o r ta n t y e s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: For him to read. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s C h a ir. C o u ld y o u p le a s e ju s t – because… CHAIRPERSON: 1.5 at page 5. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s C h a ir. C o u ld y o u r e a d 1 . 5 C h a i r is Page 137 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 a s k in g y o u t o r e a d 1 .5 . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: 1 . 5 . “ 1 .5 I n s te a d t h e r e a p p e a r s to h a v e b e e n fl o u ti n g o f g o v e r n a n c e r u le s , la w s , c o d e s a n d c o n v e n ti o n s i n c l u d i n g d i s r e g a r d f o r d e c is i o n s o f t h e c o u r ts a n d t h e I n d e p e n d e n t C o m m u n ic a ti o n s A u th o r it y o f S o u t h A fr ic a I C A S A a s w e l l a s t h e f in d i n g s o f t h e P u b l ic Pr o te c to r o f S o u t h A f r i c a . T h i s c o ll e c t iv e c o n d u c t . 1 . R e n d e r e d th e S A B C p o t e n t i a l ly f in a n c ia ll y u n s u s t a in a b l e d u e t o m is m a n a g e m e n t a s a r e s u l t o f n o n - c o m p li a n c e w i t h t h e e x is ti n g 10 p o li c i e s a n d ir r e g u l a r p r o c u r e m e n ts . I n t e r fe r e n c e in a s f a r a s e d i to r i a l in d e p e n d e n c e w h ic h i s i n d ir e c t c o n f lic t w it h jo u r n a l is tic e th ic s a n d s a w t h e p u r g i n g o f h i g h ly q u a li fi e d e x p e r ie n c e d a n d s k i ll e d s e n i o r s t a ff m e m b e r s in v io la t io n o f r e c r u i t m e n t , h u m a n r e s o u r c e s p o l ic i e s a n d p r o c e d u r e s p u r g i n g s ta ff h a v e i n m a n y in s t a n c e s b e e n r e p l a c e d – p u r g e d s t a ff – p a r d o n m e – p u r g e d s t a ff have in many instances been replaced without due c o n s i d e r a ti o n f o r o r c o m p l ia n c e w i t h e s t a b li s h e d r e c r u i t m e n t p o li c i e s . ” ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 Ye s . T h e p u r g in g o f s t a ff o n e o f y o u r e x e c u tiv e s is g o in g to t a l k t o th a t . CHAIRPERSON: Ms Norman. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: L e t u s d e c i d e w h e th e r l u n c h – w e s h o u ld ta k e l u n c h n o w o r l a te r ? I t is a b o u t f iv e p a s t ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h o k a y y e s C h a ir. Page 138 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e s o I t h i n k w e s h o u l d ta k e lu n c h . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n c o n t in u e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A f t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : I n th e a f t e r n o o n – a f te r l u n c h . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h a t t i m e i s C h a ir is g i v i n g u s f o r l u n c h ? CHAIRPERSON: W e l l l e t u s ta k e o n e h o u r a s u s u a l s o w e c o u ld r e s u m e a t f iv e p a s t tw o . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A t fi v e p a s t t w o t h a n k y o u C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b u t w h a t w e m a y n e e d to t a l k a b o u t is h o w f a r w e m a y n e e d t o g o t h i s a f te r n o o n . M a y b e I s h o u l d l e a v e th a t i d e a f o r e v e r y b o d y c o n c e r n e d t o th in k a b o u t s o w h e n w e c o m e b a c k a t fi v e p a s t t w o w e c a n t a lk a b o u t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: How far we can go. W e w i ll n o r m a ll y g o u p t o f o u r b u t s o m e t i m e s w h e n t h e r e is a n e e d w e g o b e y o n d f o u r o ’c lo c k . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: So when I come back we can hear if it would be c o n v e n i e n t f o r a ll c o n c e r n e d i f w e g o b e y o n d f o u r o ’c l o c k . 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s w e w i ll d o t h a t. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w il l a d j o u r n a n d w e w ill r e s u m e a t f iv e p a s t t w o . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: We adjourn. Page 139 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: L e t u s p r o c e e d b u t m a y b e t h e is s u e o f w h e t h e r w e w i ll - w e w ill g o b e y o n d 4 o ’ c l o c k w e c o u l d d is c u s s a r o u n d 4 o ’ c l o c k w h e n w e s e e h o w t h e s i t u a t i o n lo o k s li k e . J a , o k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Could I just take you back to your e v i d e n c e a b o u t t o - I t a k e y o u b a c k t o y o u r - my m ic is o ff . C o u ld I ju s t t a k e y o u b a c k to y o u r e v i d e n c e b e f o r e l u n c h ? 10 S o r r y. I got two m e s s a g e s fr o m m y s e n i o r c o ll e a g u e s w h o u n d e r s t o o d y o u r e v i d e n c e w h e n y o u s a i d y o u w e r e w i th M r Z u m a ’s fo u n d a ti o n t o b e t h a t y o u w e r e w i t h t h e fo u n d a ti o n f o r o n e d a y. C o u ld y o u ju s t c l a r if y th a t e v i d e n c e ? W h e n d id y o u b e c o m e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e - M r Z u m a ’s fo u n d a ti o n ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: I - I was in the But I r e a l is e d on f o u n d a t io n I t h in k f o r m o r e th a n th r e e y e a r s … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: 1 8 O c to b e r 2 0 1 7 . 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: S o y o u r r e s ig n a t i o n f o ll o w e d a - a d a y a ft e r y o u w e r e a p p o i n te d to t h e S A B C B o a r d ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: C o r r e c t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W a s th a t y o u r e v i d e n c e ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Th a t i s m y e v id e n c e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u , t h a n k y o u . I t h i n k o u t th e r e i t Page 140 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 lo o k e d lik e a s y o u w e r e w i th th e fo u n d a ti o n f o r o n e d a y. Thank you. T h a n k y o u f o r c o r r e c ti n g th a t . C o u l d y o u p l e a s e g o b a c k to E X H I B I T to - to - sorry? I b e g y o u r p a r d o n , t o y o u r s t a te m e n t . Thank you. C o u ld I d ir e c t y o u t o p a g e 4 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: I a m t h e r e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Th a n k y o u . T h e r e y o u h ig h l i g h t s o m e o f t h e f in d in g s o f b o t h t h e P u b li c Pr o t e c to r a n d t h e A d H o c C o m m i t te e . Is that correct? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: C o r r e c t . 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C o u l d I j u s t t a k e y o u b r i e fly t o p a g e 7 4 o f E X H I B I T 2 7 w h ic h is w r i t t e n r e p o r ts a n d o t h e r d o c u m e n ts ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Th a t i s t h e b i g o n e . Ye s , t h a n k y o u . C o u ld y o u tu r n t o p a g e 7 4 ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: I a m o n p a g e 7 4 . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , th a n k y o u o r m a y b e … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y th a t M s N o r m a n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e w e b a c k to t h e b u n d l e ? 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To - t o E X H I B I T 2 7 C h a ir t h e r e p o r t s a n d o th e r d o c u m e n ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Under page - at page 74? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : P a g e 7 4 . Ye s , C h a ir. Page 141 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: This report as you can - as you know M r M a k h a t h i n i d e a ls w i t h v a r i o u s m a t t e r s t h a t w e r e i n v e s t ig a t e d in s o f a r a s t h e t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e w e r e c o n c e r n e d b u t i f y o u - m a y b e I t a k e y o u b a c k t o p a g e 7 3 . Yo u w i ll s e e t h a t th e y d e a l l a r g e ly t h e r e w i t h t h e r o le o f t h e s h a r e h o ld e r r e p r e s e n t a tiv e a n d th e r e is p o li t ic a l i n te r f e r e n c e . Do you see that? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: I c a n s e e i t. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d th e n … 10 CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y. Is th is th e P a r l i a m e n t a r y A d H o c C o m m i t t e e R e p o r t? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d I h a v e a s k e d t h e w i tn e s s C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m a y p r o c e e d . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Is C h a ir a t p a g e 7 3 ? CHAIRPERSON: 73, yes. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s , t h a n k y o u . Yo u s e e t h a t t h e y d e a l w i t h t h e r o l e o f t h e s h a r e h o l d e r r e p r e s e n ta t iv e a n d th e n t h e r e i s 20 p o li t ic a l i n t e r fe r e n c e . D o y o u s e e th a t ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Ye s I c a n s e e t h a t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y a n d t h e n t h e y h a v e a l s o i d e n t if i e d i n t h e n e x t p a g e t h e r e m e d i e s a n d t h e n c o u l d y o u ju s t r e a d in t o t h e r e c o r d w h a t r e m e d ie s a r e t h e y s a y i n g s o f a r d e a l in g w it h t h e is s u e o f p o li t ic a l in t e r fe r e n c e ? Page 142 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: R e m e d i e s - 3 9 . 2 . 1 : “ T h e s h a r e h o l d e r r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s h o u l d a s s u m e a m o r e p r o a c tiv e r o l e in e n s u r i n g g o o d g o v e r n a n c e and c o m p li a n c e w it h all relevant p o li c ie s and le g i s l a ti o n s p e c i fic t o th e S A B C . ” ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And … M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: 3 9 .2 . 2 : “ T h e s h a r e h o ld e r r e p r e s e n ta t iv e ’s in v o lv e m e n t m u s t b e r e g u l a te d s o a s to e n s u r e t h a t t h e r e is n o u n d u e 10 e n c r o a c h m e n t in m a t t e r s n o r m a lly r e s e r v e d f o r t h e SABC Board. shareholder T h e r o le o f t h e - o f th e b o a r d t h e r e p r e s e n ta t iv e , th e e x e c u ti v e and P a r li a m e n t s h o u ld c l e a r ly u n d e r - s h o u ld b e c l e a r l y u n d e r s t o o d a t a ll ti m e s . T h is r e la t io n s h ip s h o u l d a t a l l t i m e s b e r e g u l a te d in a c c o r d a n c e w it h C o d e o f G o o d G o v e r n a n c e a n d B r o a d c a s t in g Ac t a n d w h e r e a p p lic a b l e th e C o m p a n i e s A c t. ” ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s a n d th e n in p a r a g r a p h 4 0 t h e y d e a l w i t h j o u r n a lis t ic e t h ic s a n d r e l a t e d m a t t e r s . 20 W h a t d o th e y s a y a b o u t e d i to r i a l in d e p e n d e n c e i n 4 0 . 1 ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: 4 0 .1 . 1 : “As th e p u b l ic broadcaster e s ta b lis h e s in - e s t a b li s h e d i n t e r m s o f t h e Br o a d c a s ti n g Ac t t h e S A B C m u s t i n te r ms o f t h e B r o a d c a s t in g C h a r t e r a t a l l ti m e s a d h e r e t o t h e h i g h s ta n d a r d o f j o u r n a l is m Page 143 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 with e d it o r ia l independence b e in g of utmost importance.” A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: “…uppermost importance.” A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d i f - fo ll o w i n g t h a t a t p a g e 7 5 e l e c t o r a l c o v e r a g e . T h e y d e a l w i t h th a t a t p a g e 7 5 . W h a t d o t h e y s a y th e r e ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: 4 0 .1 . 4 .1 : “ T h e E l e c t o r a l C o m m i s s i o n a n d th e S A B C B o a r d 10 s h o u l d e n s u r e e q u i ta b l e c o v e r a g e d u r in g e l e c t io n p e r i o d s a s w e l l a s c o m p li a n c e w i t h E d i t o r i a l Ac t a n d I C A S A R e g u la t io n s . ” ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . S o y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f t h is e q u it a b l e c o v e r a g e w h a t - w h a t d o th e y m e a n b y t h a t ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: The e q u a t o r ia l - e q u it a b l e c o v e r a g e b a s i c a ll y m e a n s b a s e d o n th e g u i d e li n e s c o m i n g fr o m t h e I E C a n d t h e r e p r e s e n t a t iv e p e r c e n ta g e o f p o l i ti c a l p a r t i e s t h a t is h o w w e s h o u ld c o v e r t h e m i n a n e q u i ta b l e m a n n e r. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 M a n n e r, y e s . I f I m a y j u s t t a k e y o u - s o t h a t w e f i n is h w i th th e b u n d l e - to th e - t h e P u b l ic Pr o t e c to r d ir e c t e d o r a t le a s t w h a t - w h a t h e r r e m e d i a l a c ti o n a n d f in d i n g s w e r e p r o p o s e d r e m e d i a l s t e p s t o b e ta k e n . W e w i ll n o t r e a d a l l o f t h e m i n t o t h e r e c o r d b u t I w i ll s i m p ly r e a d t h o s e t h a t I b e li e v e a r e g o i n g t o b e r e l e v a n t t o m o s t o f t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u a r e g o i n g t o g iv e a n d I w o u l d li k e to d ir e c t y o u t o p a g e - I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . Page 144 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 J u s t a m in u t e . I t h i n k g o v e r n a n c e i s w h a t is r e le v a n t . I s it n o t t o - t o th e b o a r d ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: G o v e r n a n c e , y e s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: r e fe r y o u to p a g e 3 8 7 . G o v e r n a n c e m a t te r s a n d I w o u l d l ik e t o T h a t is t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r ’s R e p o r t a n d i t a p p e a r s u n d e r t h e fo ld e r n u m b e r 1 0 - d iv id e r n u m b e r 1 0 . P a g e 3 8 7 . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: I a m t h e r e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. I w o u l d li k e t o d ir e c t y o u r a tt e n ti o n t o p a r a g r a p h 1 0 . 7 . 10 M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: I c a n s e e i t. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W h a t d o e s t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r d e a l with there? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: 1 0 . 7 .1 : t h e h e a d i n g is r e g a r d in g : “The A l le g e d Sy s te m ic Corporate Governance F a i lu r e s a t t h e S A B C a n d t h e C a u s e th e r e o f: I f i n d that …” 1 0 . 7 .1 : “All the above fi n d i n g s are s y m p t o m a t ic of p a t h o l o g ic a l c o r p o r a t e g o v e r n a n c e d e fic i e n c i e s a t 20 t h e S A B C in c l u d i n g f a il u r e b y th e S A B C B o a r d to provide s tr a te g ic o v e r s ig h t to the National B r o a d c a s t e r a s p r o v id e d f o r in t h e S A B C B o a r d C h a r t e r a n d K in g I II R e p o r t . ” 1 0 . 7 .2 : Page 145 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 “ T h e E x e c u ti v e D ir e c t o r s p r in c i p a l ly th e G r o u p C E O , C O O a n d C F O f a i l e d t o p r o v id e t h e n e c e s s a r y s u p p o r t , i n fo r m a t i o n a n d g o v e r n a n c e to h e l p th e board d is c h a r g e e ffe c tiv e l y and it s that fiduciary by his r e s p o n s i b i li ty own admission M r M o ts o e n e n g c a u s e d t h e b o a r d t o m a k e ir r e g u l a r and unlawful decisions.” 1 0 . 7 .3 : “ T h e b o a r d w a s d y s fu n c t io n a l a n d o n it s w a tc h a l lo w e d 10 Dr Ngubane functions authorising of the to e ff e c tiv e ly E x e c u t iv e numerous s a la r y perform the C h a ir p e r s o n by increm ents fo r M r M o ts o e n e n g . ” 1 0 . 7 .4 : “ M r M o ts o e n e n g h a s b e e n a ll o w e d to s u c c e s s iv e l y b y s u c c e s s iv e b o a r d s t o o p e r a t e a b o v e t h e l a w undermining the Group CEO amongst others and c a u s e t h e s t a ff p a r ti c u la r ly th e H u m a n R e s o u r c e s a n d f in a n c ia l - Fi n a n c i a l D e p a r t m e n t t o e n g a g e i n 20 unlawful conduct.” A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u a n d th e n th e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r i n p a r a g r a p h 1 0 . 8 d e a ls w it h s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u h a v e a l r e a d y - w h ic h i s m e n t io n e d in t h e r e p o r t - P a r l i a m e n t a r y R e p o r t t h a t I h a v e r e fe r r e d y o u t o a b o u t p o l i ti c a l in t e r f e r e n c e . paragraph 10.8. Page 146 of 216 S h e d e a ls w i th it in 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: 1 0 .8 . 1 : “The a ll e g a t io n of - the a ll e g a t io n that the d e p a r t m e n t a n d M in is t e r o f C o m m u n i c a t i o n u n d u ly in t e r fe r e d in the a ff a i r s of th e SABC is s u b s t a n t ia t e d . ” 1 0 . 8 .2 : “Former M i n is te r P u l e a c te d i m p r o p e r ly and in h a n d l in g o f h e r r o l e a s a s h a r e h o l d e r r e p r e s e n t a ti v e in t h e S A B C a s a n e x e c u ti n g a u th o r it y. ” 10 1 0 . 8 .3 : “ A m o n g s t h e r m o s t g l a r in g tr a n s g r e s s i o n s w a s t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h s h e r e je c te d t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n m a d e b y t h e b o a r d f o r t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f th e C F O a n d t h e o r c h e s t r a t e d i n c lu s i o n o f M s D u d a ’s C V. H e r w it h d r a w a l o f t h e c e r ta i n p o w e r s fr o m t h e b o a r d w a s a ls o n o t in l i n e w i t h t h e p r in c i p l e s o f c o r p o r a t e governance.” 1 0 . 8 .4 : “ H e r c o n d u c t a c c o r d i n g ly c o n s t i tu t e d a v i o l a ti o n o f 20 E x e c u t iv e s E t h ic s C o d e a n d a m o u n t t o a n a b u s e o f p o w e r. ” A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n a t p a g e 3 9 9 - 3 9 - 0 - w h a t i s r e l e v a n t fo r y o u r p u r p o s e is - i s w h a t is s ta t e d i n p a r a g r a p h 11 .3 . What is it that the board was supposed to do but I w o u ld li k e y o u t o o s i m p ly - b e c a u s e y o u r - o n e o f y o u r e x e c u t iv e s is Page 147 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 g o i n g t o ta lk t o a ll t h e o t h e r m a t t e r s t h a t f o ll o w b u t I w o u ld lik e y o u to r e a d 11 . 3 . 1 . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: 11 .3 . 1 : “ A l l m o n i e s a r e r e c o v e r e d w h ic h w e r e i r r e g u l a r l y s p e n t t h r o u g h u n l a w fu l a n d i m p r o p e r … ” A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k y o u s t a r t a t th e h e a d in g Mr M a k h a t h i n i . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: 11 - th e h e a d i n g - 11 .3 . 10 CHAIRPERSON: The SABC Board … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : To e n s u r e t h a t … M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: B o a r d t o e n s u r e th a t : “ Th e SABC a ll m o n i e s a r e r e c o v e r e d w h ic h w e r e ir r e g u l a r ly s p e n t th r o u g h u n l a w f u l a n d i m p r o p e r a c ti o n s fr o m th e a p p r o p r i a t e p e r s o n s . ” ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n l a s t ly a t p a g e 3 9 2 p a r a g r a p h 11 . 3 . 2 - 7 . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: 3 9 2 ? 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: P a r a g r a p h 11 ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : 11 . 3 . 2 - 7 , p a g e 3 9 2 . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: J a . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a s s u m e y o u a r e d e li b e r a te ly s k i p p i n g t h e o t h e r o n e s Ms Norman? Page 148 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s C h a ir b e c a u s e t h e o n e w i t n e s s is g o i n g t o t a lk t o t h e m . T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: S t il l u n d e r t h e h e a d i n g that says: “ T h e S A B C B o a r d t o e n s u r e t h a t : t h e r o l e s a n d th e r e l a ti o n s h i p o f t h e S A B C B o a r d a n d t h e C O O a r e d e f in e d p a r tic u la r ly i n r e la t io n t o t h e r o l e o f a 10 r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h th e G r o u p C E O t o a v o i d t h e p a r a ly s is a n d p r e m a tu r e e x is t o f G r o u p C E O w h il e adhering to e s t a b l is h p r i n c i p le s of corporate governance.” ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: T h a n k y o u a n d th e n s h e a l s o d e a lt w i t h m o n i t o r in g a t p a r a g r a p h - a t p a g e 3 - 9 - 3 a t 1 2 . 2 s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s d ir e c t e d a t th e b o a r d . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: 12.2: th e SABC Board is “ M o n i to r i n g to submit an i m p l e m e n ta t io n p l a n i n d ic a ti n g h o w t h e r e m e d i a l 20 a c ti o n r e f e r r e d to i n p a r a g r a p h 11 .1 . 3 a b o v e w il l b e i m p l e m e n te d w i t h i n 3 0 d a y s fr o m t h e d a t e o f m y fi n a l r e p o r t . ” A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o w e a l l k n o w th a t t h a t r e p o r t w a s d a t e d a s y o u h a v e a l r e a d y in d ic a te d 1 7 Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 4 . W h e n y o u th e n b e c a m e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e S A B C B o a r d d i d y o u fi n d a n y p la n th a t Page 149 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 had been prepared in compliance with that paragraph which you just r e a d o f t h e P u b li c P r o te c t o r ’s r e m e d i a l a c ti o n ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Chairperson yes we did fi n d t h e - t h e r e p o r t a n d t h e h a n d o v e r r e p o r t i n te r ms o f w h e r e th e y w e r e , h o w f a r th e y h a d g o n e i n , i n i m p l e m e n ti n g t h e r e m e d i a l a c ti o n w h ic h w a s d r iv e n b y t h e I n te r i m B o a r d t h a t w a s th e r e fo r s ix m o n t h s p r i o r t o u s jo i n i n g . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n i f y o u m a y n o w M r M a k h a t h i n i g o b a c k t o y o u r s ta t e m e n t … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e b e fo r e t h a t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y. CHAIRPERSON: Does that mean M r M a k h a th i n i th a t on your u n d e r s t a n d in g t h e r e h a d b e e n n o p l a n p u t i n p l a c e b e f o r e t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f t h e I n t e r i m B o a r d ? Th e p r e v i o u s b o a r d h a d n o t p u t a n y p l a n i n p la c e t o i m p le m e n t ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: C h a ir p e r s o n that is c o r r e c t . T h e r e w a s n o p l a n t h a t w a s p u t b e fo r e t h e I n t e r i m B o a r d c a m e in . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Th a n k - t h a n k y o u C h a ir. Then because y o u g o t th e r e a n d t h e r e w a s a p la n t h a t t h e In t e r i m B o a r d h a d p r e p a r e d is t h a t t h e p l a n t h a t y o u a r e c o n t in u in g o n a s th is c u r r e n t b o a r d o r d i d y o u y o u r s e lv e s p r e p a r e a n o th e r p l a n ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: W e - i n p a r ti c u la r w h e n w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r w e c o n ti n u e d w it h t h e w o r k t h a t w a s Page 150 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 s t a r t e d b y t h e I n te r i m B o a r d to e n s u r e t h a t t h e r e is s i m il a r h a n d o v e r a n d t h e r e is n o t h in g d r o p s t h r o u g h t h e c r a c k s b u t o f c o u r s e t h e r e is f u r th e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n th a t w e r e d o n e d u r in g o u r t i m e a s t h e b o a r d . D o n e b y t h e I n t e r n a l F o r e n s ic w h i c h h a s p r o d u c e d f u r th e r e v id e n c e o f w r o n g d o i n g s a t th e S A B C . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u a n d h o w - if y o u w e r e to m e a s u r e i n s o f a r a s c o m p l i a n c e o r a t l e a s t i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r ’s r e m e d ia l action and also th e Ad Hoc C o m m i t t e e ’s r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s . H o w f a r w o u ld y o u s a y - a r e y o u n o w a t 5 0 p e r c e n t 10 o f i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f a l l t h o s e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s o r a r e y o u s til l s i t ti n g a t m a y b e 1 0 p e r c e n t ? W e ll h o w fa r w o u l d y o u s a y y o u h a v e g o n e ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: 80/90 percent. I - I w il l p u t it a t a b o u t T h e c h a ll e n g e s t h a t - t h e m a i n r e a s o n w h y th e s e n e e d e d to b e d o n e w a s fo r u s to r e c o v e r m o n i e s t h a t w e r e lo s t ( in d is ti n c t) . that was Th a t p r o c e s s is a lo n g li t ig a ti o n p r o c e s s b u t e v e r y t h i n g highlighted in the P u b li c P r o t e c t o r ’s Report we are i m p l e m e n ti n g a n d t h e 2 4 r e c o m m e n d a ti o n c o m i n g o u t o f th e A d H o c Committee we have a ls o i m p le m e n t e d almost a ll of those r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s . 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . Th e n w e g o b a c k t h e n to y o u r s ta t e m e n t. I f I m a y j u s t d i r e c t y o u . Yo u h a v e a lr e a d y d e a l t w i t h no paragraphs 9 and 10. Yo u h a v e t a k e n t h o s e p a r a g r a p h s . something happened in December 2018. Th e n What was it and how did it a ffe c t t h e f u n c ti o n i n g o f th e b o a r d ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Page 151 of 216 In December 2018 four 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 board members fr o m i m m e d i a t e e ff e c t . the previous Interim Board resigned w i th B a s ic a lly m a k i n g th e b o a r d t o - n o t t o b e a b l e t o c o n ti n u e w i th th e w o r k th a t w a s r e q u ir e d b y th e l a w. So we became in c o r r e c t a n d - a n d th e s e b o a r d m e m b e r s w h o r e s ig n e d c i te d a n u m b e r of reasons. O t h e r s c i t e d p e r s o n a l r e a s o n s i n t e r m s o f th e ir w o r k lo a d . O t h e r s c i te d t h e - t h e is s u e s a r o u n d t h e m is a li g n m e n t w i th w h a t t h e r e s t o f t h e b o a r d m e m b e r s fe l t w a s t h e i n d e p e n d e n c e a n d w h a t in d e p e n d e n c e o f t h e b o a r d m e a n t a n d o t h e r b o a r d m e m b e r s a n o t h e r 10 o n e c it e d t h e r e a s o n o f l a c k o f s u p p o r t - f i n a n c ia l s u p p o r t - fr o m Government. I n d ic a ti n g t h a t w h e n h e t o o k th e j o b t o b e p a r t o f th e b o a r d t h e e x p e c ta t io n w a s t h a t t h e r e w a s g o i n g to b e f u n d i n g t h a t w o u ld g o w i t h t h e - th e j o b … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: W h ic h h a d n o t c o m e f o r th . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. C h a i r a t th is s t a g e I w o u l d lik e t o r e f e r th e w i tn e s s t o E X H I B I T C C 2 3 B . Th is - i f y o u r e c a ll C h a i r 20 t h is is w h a t I h a d r e fe r r e d t o a s d e v e l o p m e n t s o v e r t h e w e e k e n d b u t w e h a d d e c i d e d j u s t t o p u t a ll o f th is i n c o n te x t t o p u t i n t h e l e t t e r s o f r e s ig n a ti o n o f th e v a r i o u s m e m b e r s . T h a t w o u ld b e i n E X H I B I T C C 2 3 B . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: I h a v e g o t i t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Th a n k y o u C h a ir. Page 152 of 216 H a v e y o u fo u n d i t ? 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 Thank you. C a n y o u j u s t g o t h r o u g h - w e w il l g o th r o u g h a l l th o s e le t t e r s b e c a u s e th e r e i s s o m e t h in g - th e r e a r e s o m e o f th e m a t te r s th a t t h e s e b o a r d m e m b e r s a r e m e n ti o n i n g w h ic h a r e g o in g to b e c o m e r e l e v a n t t o y o u r e v i d e n c e a n d t o w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d r e c e n t ly. Could y o u ju s t d e a l - le t u s d e a l w i t h th e f ir s t p a g e . T h a t i s a le t t e r fr o m th e M i n is t e r o f C o m m u n i c a t i o n s d a t e d 2 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 8 a d d r e s s e d t o t h e P r e s i d e n t . I s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: C o r r e c t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n w h a t d o e s s h e d e a l w i th in t h a t 10 le t t e r ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: S u b je c t o f th e l e t te r : “Resignation of SABC Board Member - M s K h a n y is il e K w e y a m a . ” P o in t 1 : “The correspondence E x c e l le n c e that serves to a d v ic e His M s K h a n y is i l e Ta n d i w e K w e y a m a h a s r e s i g n e d a s a m e m b e r o f t h e S A B C B o a r d w i th immediate e ff e c t . Thus r e s u l ti n g in another v a c a n c y in t h e S A B C B o a r d . ” 20 P o in t 2 : “The reason for resignation is the appointment of M s K w e y a m a a s P R A S A C h a ir p e r s o n . ” T h ir d : “The resignation is h e r e to attached. s in c e r e ly. ” Page 153 of 216 Yo u r s 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Th a n k y o u a n d th e n - t h is m o r n in g t h e n y o u h a v e n o t p r o v id e d u s w i t h th a t l e t te r o f r e s ig n a ti o n w h e n y o u g a v e w h e n y o u g o t t h e s e fr o m y o u ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Ye s . We have not s u p p li e d i t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u b u t y o u w i ll m a k e i t a v a il a b l e ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Ye s . W e w i ll s o u r c e i t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . Thank you and then in the - the s e c o n d p a g e d e a l s w i th t h e r e s ig n a ti o n o f a n o t h e r m e m b e r o f th e b o a r d 10 M r J o h n M a t tis o n a ls o a d d r e s s e d to t h e P r e s i d e n t d a t e d D e c e m b e r, t h e 3rd 2018. C o u l d y o u j u s t h ig h li g h t w h a t th e r e a s o n w e r e f o r h is r e s ig n a ti o n t h e r e ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Th e r e a s o n g i v e n h e r e : “ T h e d is s a t is f a c ti o n w i t h t h e O v e r s ig h t C o m m i t t e e w a s a p p a r e n t i n t h e t h r e e s u c c e s s iv e h e a r in g s a n d r e a c h e d a c r o s s a l l p o l i ti c a l p a r ti e s . M y e n d e a v o u r s t o p e r s u a d e t h e b o a r d t o c h a n g e c o u r s e in c l u d i n g t h e s u s p e n s i o n o f r e tr e n c h m e n t h a v e n o t b e e n a c c e p te d . ” 20 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . I a m s o r r y. I s h o u l d n o t h a v e d o n e t h is . I t h i n k I s h o u ld h a v e j u s t d i r e c t e d y o u t o s t a r t fr o m th e - fr o m t h a t paragraph - the second paragraph. S o r r y, b e c a u s e y o u h a v e l e f t o u t s o m e t h i n g t h e r e . C o u ld y o u j u s t s t a r t fr o m th a t p a r a g r a p h ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: “ I a p o lo g is e fo r n o t c o m p l e ti n g m y fu ll t e n u r e o f f iv e y e a r s i n t h is Page 154 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 p o s i ti o n . I r e m a i n p a s s io n a te a b o u t b u i ld in g t h e p u b lic b r o a d c a s te r i n t o a n i n s ti t u ti o n S o u t h A fr ic a n s a n d i n d e e d A f r i c a n s a c r o s s t h e c o n t in e n t c a n b e p r o u d o f . H o w e v e r I fi n d I a m - I fi n d I a m u n a b l e t o a g r e e w i t h t h e c u r r e n t b o a r d - b o a r d ’s d ir e c ti o n and in p a r ti c u la r i ts f a i lu r e to a p p r e c ia t e the o v e r s ig h t r o l e o f P a r l ia m e n t a n d i t s c o m m i t t e e s . T h e d is s a t is f a c ti o n o f t h e o v e r s i g h t - O v e r s i g h t C o m m i t t e e s w a s a p p a r e n t in t h e t h r e e s u c c e s s iv e h e a r in g s a n d r e a c h e d a c r o s s a l l p o li t ic a l p a r t ie s . 10 M y e n d e a v o u r to p e r s u a d e t h e b o a r d t o c h a n g e c o u r s e i n c l u d i n g t h e s u s p e n s i o n o f r e tr e n c h m e n t h a v e n o t b e e n a c c e p te d . ” A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d th e n h e a s k e d t o b e r e le a s e d fr o m ( in t e r v e n e s ) . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: “I h u m b ly r e q u e s t t h a t I b e r e l e a s e d f r o m m y f i d u c i a r y d u ty a s a b o a r d m e m b e r w i t h i m m e d i a t e e ff e c t a n d t h a t is t h e t h r e e m o n t h s ’ n o ti c e p e r i o d r e q u ir e d b y t h e Ac t b e w a i v e d a n d r e m a i n w i ll in g to s e r v e S o u th A fr ic a 20 a s e v e r. ” ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. W e a r e g o in g t o d e a l w i t h y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e s e r e a s o n s t h a t a r e a d v a n c e d b u t f o r n o w f o r c o n s i s te n c y s a k e le t u s d e a l w i th t h e r e s i g n a ti o n s a n d t h e r e a s o n s a n d then you have another l e tt e r dated 5 December 2018 Page 155 of 216 and fr o m 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 M r M a th a th a Ts e d u . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Th a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . C o u ld y o u a l s o - h e w a s a l s o r e s ig n in g a n d a s k i n g a l s o fo r t h e w a iv e r o f t h e t h r e e m o n t h p e r i o d i n t h e fir s t p a r a g r a p h . C o u l d y o u j u s t r e a d fr o m p a r a g r a p h 2 t h e s e c o n d paragraph? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: “I wish to also e x p r e s s m y g r a ti t u d e t o P a r l ia m e n t , t h e G o v e r n m e n t o f o u r R e p u b lic a n d t h e p e o p l e o f t h is c o u n tr y f o r 10 h a v i n g g iv in g m e a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o s e r v e o u r n a ti o n through the work of the SABC. B o t h a s D e p u ty C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e I n te r i m B o a r d a n d l a te r a s a m e m b e r o f a - o f th e P e r m a n e n t B o a r d . I h a v e tr ie d a t a l l ti m e s t o l iv e u p to th e h ig h e s t p o s s i b l e id e a l s o f c o m m i t m e n t t o s e r v e o u r - o u r p e o p le i n li n e w i t h t h e m a n d a t e o f t h e S A B C a s a P u b lic Br o a d c a s te r. The work of both the In t e r i m B o a r d and th e P e r m a n e n t B o a r d i n r o o t i n g o u t c o r r u p ti o n - c o r r u p t p r a c ti c e a n d r e v e r s i n g f r a u d u l e n t a c t iv it i e s s p e a k s 20 f o r it s e l f a n d I a m p r o u d t h a t I p l a y e d m y li t tl e r o le in that o n g o in g e x e r c is e . I a c c e p te d the a p p o i n t m e n t o n t h e u n d e r s ta n d i n g th a t r e s o u r c e s w i ll be a v a il a b l e to fu l fil the r e s p o n s i b il it i e s . H o w e v e r th e fi n a n c i a l c r u n c h f a c i n g t h e S A B C is g e t t in g w o r s e b y t h e d a y a n d a ll e ff o r t s b y t h e Page 156 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 board to ensure a Government guarantee have y ie l d e d n o t h i n g i n o v e r 1 8 m o n t h s o f p le a d in g s . ” A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. S o … M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: “ I t h e r e fo r e n o lo n g e r - i t i s t h e r e f o r e n o l o n g e r p o s s i b l e f o r m e t o c o n ti n u e in t h i s r o l e a n d b e g y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g fo r m y a c t io n t o t e r m i n a t e my m e m b e r s h i p o f t h e board.” ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 10 Sorry just one error there. Th e la s t s e n te n c e b e f o r e i t is t h e r e f o r e s a y s : “ H o w e v e r t h e fi n a n c i a l c r u n c h f a c in g t h e S A B C i s g e t t in g w o r s e b y t h e d a y a n a ll e ffo r t s b y t h e b o a r d to source a Government guarantee …” Ye s . S o i t is - i t is t o s o u r c e a G o v e r n m e n t g u a r a n t e e h a v e y ie l d e d n o ti n g o v e r t h e 1 8 m o n t h s p e r io d . le t t e r d a te d 4 December 2018 it is T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n la s t written a d d r e s s e d t o th e Pr e s id e n t o f t h e c o u n tr y. by M r Kr is h N a i d o o C o u l d y o u th e n - h e w a s a ls o a s k in g - h e w a s te n d e r i n g h i s r e s i g n a ti o n . C o u l d y o u s t a r t fr o m paragraph 2 of his letter please? 20 M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: “ I a p o lo g is e fo r n o t h a v in g s e r v e d m y f u ll t e n u r e o f f i v e y e a r s . H o w e v e r t h e in a b i li ty o f s o m e o f t h e b o a r d m e m b e r s t o u n d e r s ta n d t h e d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n c o r p o r a t e in d e p e n d e n c e , in t e r fe r e n c e has a c c o u n t a b il i ty led to a and breakdown Page 157 of 216 p o li t ic a l in the 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 r e l a ti o n s h i p w i th th e M in is t e r. Th e S A B C h a s a p r e s s in g i s s u e o f la c k o f fu n d s w h ic h r e q u i r e s i m m e d i a t e a t t e n t io n . F o r th a t r e a s o n I d o n o t w is h t o d e l a y th e G o v e r n m e n t - th e g o v e r n a n c e p r o c e s s w i t h a p p o i n ti n g a n i n te r i m s tr u c t u r e to m a n a g e th e a ffa ir s o f t h e c o r p o r a ti o n . As s u c h I h u m b l y r e q u e s t t h a t I b e r e l e a s e d fr o m m y fi d u c i a r y d u ti e s a s a b o a r d m e m b e r w i t h i m m e d i a te e ff e c t a n d t h a t t h e t h r e e m o n t h s p e r i o d r e q u i r e d in t h e Ac t b y - b e w a iv e d . 10 T h e b a s is f o r m y r e q u e s t i s th a t m y i m m e d i a t e w i th d r a w a l fr o m t h e a ff a ir s o f t h e S A B C B o a r d w il l n o t c a u s e a n y p r e ju d ic e t o th e B o a r d . ” ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . Thank you. Let us start with that le t t e r a n d t h e n w e w il l g o b a c k w a r d s . W h a t - w h a t d o y o u u n d e r s ta n d t o - M r N a id o o t o - t o m e a n w h e n h e w a s s a y in g th a t t h e b o a r d t h a t i s t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e b o a r d w e r e f a il in g to u n d e r s ta n d b e t w e e n t h e d i ff e r e n t - a c c o u n t a b i li ty the d i ff e r e n c e between corporate a n d p o l i ti c a l in t e r f e r e n c e a n d t h a t - independence, th a t l a c k of u n d e r s t a n d in g h a d t h e n l e d t o a b r e a k d o w n i n t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p w i th t h e 20 M i n is t e r ? W h a t w a s y o u r - w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g a t t h is p o in t ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: To p u t i t i n to c o n t e x t i n 2 0 1 7 th e r e w a s a j u d g m e n t b y J u d g e M a t o j a n e t h a t b a s ic a l ly c la r i fi e d w h a t i s t h e r o l e o f t h e b o a r d a n d w h a t i s th e r o l e o f t h e Mi n is te r. S o t h e b o a r d r u n s t h e a ffa ir s o f t h e S A B C a n d i n t h a t i n s t a n c e t h e y - t h e M i n is t e r h a s n o r i g h t t o i n t e r fe r e w i t h th e o p e r a ti o n s o f t h e S A B C a n d I Page 158 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 t h i n k t o s o m e p e o p le i t - i t c o u l d a b i t o f ti m e f o r t h e m t o - to u n d e r s t a n d w h a t th a t m e a n t . It p o li t ic i a n s . b a s i c a ll y meant th a t we cannot take d ir e c tiv e from W e c a n n o t a l lo w a n y p o li ti c i a n to i n t e r fe r e w i th th e w o r k t h a t th e S A B C h a s t o d o a n d t h a t is e s t a b li s h e d i n l a w b e c a u s e t h a t ju d g m e n t w a s n e v e r c h a ll e n g e d a n d th e is s u e a r o u n d f o r a n e x a m p l e u s r e s is ti n g o v e r s i g h t b y P a r li a m e n t . I t i s n o t c o r r e c t . Yo u w il l r e c a ll t h a t a t t h a t ti m e t h e b o a r d h a d a p p r o v e d a t u r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y i n a b o u t S e p te m b e r a n d t h a t tu r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y 10 h a d b e e n p r e s e n te d i n - i n P a r li a m e n t a n d th a t tu r n a r o u n d s tr a te g y c o v e r e d a n u m b e r o f e l e m e n ts . O n e o f t h o s e w a s c o s t c u t ti n g in it i a t iv e s a n d p a r t o f t h a t w a s a S e c ti o n 1 8 9 w h ic h m a d e a l o t o f p o li t ic a l p a r t ie s u n c o m f o r ta b l e w i th b e c a u s e i t w a s a n e le c t i o n y e a r a n d s o fo r t h b u t … ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: S o r r y. Yo u a r e g o in g to o f a s t . So the S e c t io n 1 8 9 th a t i s S e c ti o n 1 8 9 i n t e r m s o f th e L a b o u r R e l a ti o n s Ac t ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Th a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S o i t d e a ls w i t h r e tr e n c h m e n ts . A m I r ig h t ? 20 M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: It d e a ls with r e tr e n c h m e n ts . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. S o y o u w e n t to P a r l ia m e n t a n d y o u presented that to Parliament … M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: W e p r e s e n te d … ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A s p a r t o f t h e s tr a t e g y t h a t t h e b o a r d - Page 159 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 t u r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y t h a t t h e b o a r d h a d a p p r o v e d ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Th a t i s c o r r e c t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: O k a y. S o y e s y o u m a y c o n ti n u e fr o m t h e r e a n d y o u s a y m o s t p o li ti c a l p a r t ie s t h e n w e r e n o t h a p p y w i th t h a t ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: W e r e n o t h a p p y w i t h th a t b e c a u s e it w a s a n e le c t i o n y e a r. W e w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t r e tr e n c h m e n t b u t a ls o th e c o u n tr y is f a c in g h i g h l e v e ls o f u n e m p l o y m e n t b u t t h e t r u t h o f t h e m a t t e r i s i f y o u l o o k a t w h a t i s e x p e c t e d o f b o a r d m e m b e r s th e y h a v e t o d o w h a t is b e s t fo r t h e e n ti ty t h a t t h e y a r e D ir e c t o r s o f . 10 Ye s is s u e s o f e m p l o y m e n t /u n e m p lo y m e n t is b ig f o r o u r c o u n tr y b u t w e h a v e t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e S A B C i s v i a b l e a n d th a t t u r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y in c l u d e d c o s t c u t ti n g a n d t h i s is w h a t c a u s e d a lo t of tension. I f y o u f o l lo w t h r o u g h a l o t o f t h e h e a r i n g s w e h a d i n P a r li a m e n t a ll t h e y w e r e b a n g in g o n w a s y o u c a n n o t r e tr e n c h , y o u c a n n o t r e tr e n c h b u t a t t h e s a m e ti m e w e w e r e n o t o ff e r e d a n y a l t e r n a t iv e t o a s k - f o r u s t o b e a b l e t o tu r n a r o u n d t h e s i t u a t io n . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: H o w m u c h w o u l d y o u s a y t h e s a la r y - l e t u s - s a l a r ie s a n d a l l e m p lo y e e b e n e fi ts - h o w m u c h w o u l d y o u s a y t h e y t a k e o u t o f th e b u d g e t t h a t t h e S A B C h a s ? 20 M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: H m . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I n t e r m s o f p e r c e n ta g e s ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: I t is a b o u t - i t is o v e r 4 5 percent of our expenses - expenditure goes to salaries. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: W h ic h is o u t o f th e n o r m . Page 160 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: No. S o t h e n y o u p r e s e n t e d t h e n th e s tr a t e g y t o t h e b o a r d a n d t h e b o a r d r a is e d t h e s e c o n c e r n - I a m s o r r y. T h e - t h e n P a r l ia m e n t . T h e y r a i s e d th e s e c o n c e r n s t h a t l o o k y o u c a n n o t r e tr e n c h . S o t h e n w h a t w a s y o u r Pl a n B ? CHAIRPERSON: Maybe before that just tell me the important features o f y o u r t u r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y t h a t y o u p r e s e n te d t o P a r li a m e n t t o t h e r e l e v a n t p o r t fo li o c o m m i t t e e . I u n d e r s t a n d th a t y o u s a y i t i n c l u d e d c o s t c u t ti n g m e a s u r e s w h i c h I t a k e c o u l d l e a d t o r e tr e n c h m e n t b u t I ju s t w a n t y o u t o ta b u l a te ju s t w h a t y o u c o n s i d e r t o b e t h e i m p o r t a n t f e a t u r e s 10 o f t h a t t u r n a r o u n d s t r a t e g y. M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: T h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e t u r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y w a s u n d e r p i n n e d b y t h r e e k e y e l e m e n t s . T h e fir s t o n e is w h a t a r e r e f e r r e d t o a s l e g a c y a n d g o v e r n a n c e e l e m e n t. T h a t e l e m e n t d e a l s w it h a l l t h e th in g s t h a t w e n t w r o n g i n t h e p a s t a n d t h e w o r k t h a t is b e i n g d o n e to d e a l w it h t h e l e g a c y a n d g o v e r n a n c e is s u e s is in f o r m e d b y th e P u b l ic Pr o t e c to r ’s R e p o r t . T h e P u b l ic Pr o t e c to r ’s R e p o r t c a m e u p w i th a n u m b e r o f r e m e d i a l a c ti o n s t h a t t a lk s t o w h a t w e n t w r o n g i n t h e p a s t. So as a b o a r d w e t o o k a r e s o l u t i o n a n d i t w a s p a r t o f t h e - i t is s ti ll p a r t o f 20 s tr a t e g y t o d e a l w i t h t h o s e d e c i s iv e ly. T h e s e c o n d o n e i s c o m i n g o u t o f t h e P a r li a m e n t A d H o c C o m m i t t e e R e p o r t w h ic h a ls o c a m e w it h a n u m b e r o f r e c o m m e n d a t io n s a n d w e a r e - a s w e i m p l e m e n t t h o s e w e a r e t h e n d r iv i n g t h e l e g a c y a n d g o v e r n a n c e is s u e s . T h e t h ir d w i ll ta lk to S I U I n v e s ti g a t i o n s . SIU has been with u s n o w fo r - s i n c e t h e ti m e o f th e I n te r i m Bo a r d . T h e y h a v e d o n e t h e Page 161 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 in v e s t i g a t io n u n d e r tw o p r o c la m a t i o n s t h a t t h e y h a v e b e e n g i v e n . O u t of that work they have dealt with about 38 matters. Out of those 38 a b o u t 2 3 o f t h o s e w e r e D C m a t te r s . A b o u t s ix o f th e m w e r e c r i m i n a l m a t te r s . A b o u t s e v e n w e r e li ti g a t i o n m a t te r s a n d t h e w o r k t h a t i s b e i n g d o n e t h e r e a s a r e s u l t o f t h e o u tc o m e o f th e S I U t a lk s t o t h e fi r s t e l e m e n t o f o u r s t r a t e g y. T h e f o u r t h ta lk s t o A u d it o r - G e n e r a l . A u d i t o r - G e n e r a l n o w a n d a g a i n w ill c o m e a n d a u d i t th e S A B C a n d t h e y w i ll c o m e w i t h a u d i t is s u e s t h a t n e e d s to b e a d d r e s s e d . There is a plan to address those audit queries and the team 10 h a s d o n e a s t e r li n g j o b i n a d d r e s s i n g t h o s e . T h a t i s - t h a t i s th e f o u r th one. T h e fi f t h e le m e n t t a lk s to a b o u t 1 8 0 f o r e n s ic r e p o r ts th a t h a v e b e e n d o n e b y o u r o w n i n te r n a l f o r e n s i c , a n d t h o s e 1 8 0 fo r e n s ic r e p o r t s g iv e u s a n e x t e n t o f t h e r o t a t t h e S A B C a n d w h a t n e e d e d t o b e d o n e t o a d d r e s s w h a t m a y h a v e g o n e w r o n g , s o t h a t ’s t h e f ir s t e l e m e n t o f o u r s tr a t e g y, t o s a y t o e n s u r e j u s ti c e a n d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e w r o n g s a r e c o r r e c t e d a n d to m a k e s u r e th a t w e c o r r e c t w h a t w a s d o n e w r o n g , b u t a ls o 20 c r e a te a sense that being held a c c o u n t a b le and t h e r e ’s c o n s e q u e n c e m a n a g e m e n t a t t h e S A B C . W e a r e d r iv in g t h a t u n d e r t h a t p i ll a r o f le g a c y a n d g o v e r n a n c e . T h e s e c o n d e l e m e n t o f o u r s tr a t e g y t a lk s t o w h a t I r e f e r t o a s p o li c y a n d r e g u l a t o r y is s u e s . T h e r e ’s q u i t e a n u m b e r o f r e g u l a ti o n s a n d p o l ic i e s t h a t h a v e p u t S A B C i n a f in a n c i a l d ir e s i t u a t i o n . One of t h o s e is th e m a s t e r c a r e r e g u l a ti o n s , t h e m a s t e r c a r e r e g u l a ti o n Page 162 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 b a s ic a lly s a y s o u r c o m p e t it o r s c a n c a r r y S A B C 1 , 2 a n d 3 a t n o c o s t t o t h e m , b u t a t m il li o n s o f c o s ts f o r t h e S A B C . I f y o u l o o k a t th e p r o g r a m s o n S A B C 1 , 2 a n d 3 t h e y a r e th e m o s t p o p u l a r p r o g r a m s , th e y a r e t h e m o s t w a t c h e d p r o g r a m s , s o to h a v e o t h e r p l a y e r s m a k i n g m o n e y a t t h e e x p e n s e o f S A B C is n ’ t f a ir. S o th a t r e g u la ti o n t h a t t a lk s t o m a s t e r c a r e is u n f a ir t o S A B C , t h a t ’s t h e fi r s t o n e . T h e s e c o n d o n e t a lk s t o t h e w h o l e is s u e o f d i g i t a l m i g r a t i o n , t h e c h o ic e s th a t h a v e b e e n m a d e b y g o v e r n m e n t a s to w h i c h o p ti o n t o g o f o r w h e t h e r D T H o r D T T y o u fi n d t h a t s o m e o f th e s e o p t io n s a r e v e r y 10 c o s t ly t o th e S A B C , t h e r e m a y b e o t h e r a v e n u e s t h a t a r e c h e a p e r, e ffic i e n t a n d m o r e r e a s o n a b l e f o r t h e S A B C , f o r a n e x a m p le i f w e w e r e t o g o f o r D T H w h ic h i n th is c a s e i t ’s s a t e l l it e k i n d o f a s y s t e m w il l g iv e u s m o r e c h a ll e n g e , e ff ic i e n t a n d m o r e c h e a p e r, b u t b e c a u s e o f t h e g o v e r n m e n t p o l ic y w e h a v e t o f o l lo w a p a r t ic u l a r r o u te w h ic h is fi n a n c i a l ly d ir e fo r t h e S A B C , t h a t ’s t h e s e c o n d o n e . T h e t h ir d o n e t a l k s t o is s u e s o f s p o r ts r i g h t s . T h e s p o r ts r ig h ts – s p o r t r e g u la t io n s t a lk s a b o u t a l l fr e e t o a ir p la y e r s h a v i n g t o carry sports of national importance, but strangely enough other players d o n ’t e v e n b o t h e r b id d i n g fo r t h e s e r i g h t s b e c a u s e f r o m a p r ic e 20 p e r s p e c t iv e i t i s to o h ig h , a n d i t is n o t c o m m e r c i a lly p o s s i b l e t o c o m m e r c ia li s e t h e s e r ig h ts , s o t h e s p o r t s r i g h t s p u t t h e b u r d e n o n S A B C t h a t n o b o d y is p r e p a r e d t o f u n d . W h e n y o u l o o k a t o u r l o s s e s I m e a n t h e C E O a n d C F O w i ll t a l k a b o u t o u r lo s s e s , t h e u n a u d it e d fi n a n c i a l s f o r t h i s – f o r l a s t f i n a n c ia l y e a r is s i t ti n g a t a b o u t 4 8 3 m i ll i o n . A b o u t 4 1 0 o f t h a t 4 8 3 mi ll i o n is a s a r e s u lt o f s p o r ts r i g h ts . Page 163 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 S o th is ta lk s t o a p o lic y a n d a r e g u l a ti o n t h a t i s m a k i n g i t i m p o s s i b le f o r th e S A B C t o b e f in a n c i a lly v ia b l e . T h e l a s t c o m p o n e n t I w a n t to to u c h o n is T V l ic e n s e s . I m e a n f o r S o u th A f r ic a n s t o b e p a y in g 7 2 c e n t s a d a y fo r 1 9 r a d i o s ta t io n s , fi v e T V c h a n n e ls i t i s u n d e r s t a n d a b l e , w h a t c a n y o u b u y f o r 7 2 c e n ts t h e s e d a y s , c o n s i d e r i n g th a t w e a r e g iv i n g t h e 1 9 r a d i o s t a ti o n s , 1 4 o ffic i a l la n g u a g e s , a l l c o v e r e d , t h r e e T V c h a n n e ls , f iv e T V c h a n n e ls , o f c o u r s e th e S A B C 4 0 4 w h ic h is 2 4 h o u r n e w s c h a n n e l o n D S T V a s w e l l a s t h e E n c a c h a n n e l, s o w h e n y o u lo o k a t t h o s e r e g u la t io n s a n d 10 p o li c i e s th e y h a v e c o n tr i b u t e d s i g n i fi c a n tly i n g e t ti n g S A B C i n a fi n a n c i a l ly u n te n a b l e s i tu a ti o n . Th a t ’s t h e s e c o n d e l e m e n t o f o u r s tr a t e g y. T h e th ir d e l e m e n t o f o u r s t r a t e g y t a l k e d t o w h a t I c a l l c o m m e r c ia l a n d o p e r a t io n a l e l e m e n ts . T h i s i s a b o u t w h a t a r e w e g o i n g t o d o a s t h e S A B C t o d e a l w i t h r e v e n u e , s o t h e e x e c u t iv e h a v e c o m e u p w i t h a b o u t 1 5 i n it i a t iv e s t o d r iv e r e v e n u e g r o w t h b u t a t th e s a m e t i m e a s y o u d r i v e y o u r r e v e n u e g r o w th y o u h a v e to d r iv e d o w n y o u r c o s t , s o in t h e la s t f in a n c i a l y e a r w e ’v e s a v e d a l m o s t a b il li o n r a n d i n c o s t. T h is t a lk s t o w h a t w e ’v e b e e n a b l e t o d r iv e u n d e r th a t e l e m e n t , a n d th a t 20 e l e m e n t r e a ll y t a lk s a b o u t c o m m e r c i a lly w h a t y o u ’ r e g o i n g t o d o t o turnaround this business and I ’v e said th e r e ’s 15 elements or in it i a t iv e s , s o fo r a n e x a m p l e r e tr e n c h m e n t w a s ju s t o n e o f t h e e l e m e n ts , i t i s n o t t h e o n l y o n e . I m e a n i f y o u lo o k a t w e h a v e n ’ t b e e n a b l e t o r e tr e n c h b e c a u s e w e w e r e s t o p p e d fr o m r e t r e n c h i n g . Last year when the Board had Page 164 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 r e s o l v e d t o r e tr e n c h w e w e r e s t o p p e d fr o m r e t r e n c h i n g , a n d u p u n ti l n o w w e h a v e n o t a ls o r e c e iv e d a n y m o n e y b u t w e a r e n o t a l lo w e d t o d o w h a t w e t h o u g h t a s a b o a r d w a s a s o u n d a n d r e a s o n a b l e th i n g t o d o . S o i n a n u ts h e ll th a t w a s o u r s tr a te g y, i t c o v e r s t h o s e t h r e e , le g a c y a n d g o v e r n a n c e is s u e s , p o l ic y a n d r e g u l a t i o n s , i t a ls o c o v e r s c o m m e r c ia l a n d o p e r a t i o n a l e le m e n ts w h i c h r e a ll y l o o k s h o w d o y o u m a k e S A B C e ffic i e n t a n d a b le to c o m p e te in t h e s p a c e w i t h i n w h i c h w e operate. T h a t ’s w h a t o u r s tr a t e g y c o v e r s a t a h i g h l e v e l , b u t o f c o u r s e 10 w h e n th e C E O c o m e s h e w i ll a ls o t o u c h o n t h e s ix t h e l e m e n t o f o u r s tr a t e g y w h ic h i s a b o u t f o r e x a m p l e j u s t t o g iv e y o u a s e n s e o f i t , it ’s a b o u t fi n a n c i a l s u s t a i n a b il it y, th e s e c o n d o n e t a lk s t o c o n t e n t a n d p l a t fo r m s t h a t w e n e e d t o h a v e c o m p e ll in g c o n te n t , th a t is a v a il a b l e to a l l S o u t h A fr ic a n s i n d i ff e r e n t p la t f o r m s , i t t a lk s to g o v e r n a n c e , i t t a l k s t o p a r t n e r s h i p s , th a t w e ’v e g o t t o l e v e r a g e d i ff e r e n t p a r tn e r s h ip s fo r u s t o b e a b l e t o d e l iv e r t o S o u th A f r i c a n s , i t a ls o t a l k s t o H R is s u e s , a tt r a c t i n g t h e b e s t t a l e n t , c o m p e t e n t p e o p le w h o h a v e th e p r e r e q u is it e s k i lls a n d e x p e r i e n c e t o h e l p u s w it h w h a t w e n e e d to d o , b u t t h e o t h e r o th e r k e y e l e m e n t t a l k s t o d ig i ta l e l e m e n t o f S A B C b e c a u s e t h e f u t u r e 20 o f b r o a d c a s ti n g w i ll r e q u ir e u s t o b e le v e r a g i n g o r i n n o v a t i n g in t e r m s o f t e c h n o l o g y a n d d i g it a l e le m e n ts . S o i n a n u t s h e l l t h o s e a r e th e e l e m e n ts th a t s i t s in o u r s tr a t e g y. C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o w a n t t o a s k y o u s o m e q u e s ti o n s f u r t h e r o n s o m e o f th o s e a s p e c ts b u t i t m a y b e th a t M s N o r m a n is g o i n g to b e a s k i n g Page 165 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 y o u t h e q u e s t i o n s I a m t h in k i n g o f s o I w il l a l lo w h e r to p r o c e e d b u t i f s h e is g o i n g o u ts i d e o f th o s e , th e n I w ill a s k . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a ir. S o th e n y o u h a v e a lr e a d y s a i d t h a t t h e B o a r d h a d a p p r o v e d t h is s t r a t e g y. M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: have four Board members Ye s . N o w w h a t I w o u l d l ik e t o k n o w is y o u r e s i g n in g a t t h e s a m e t i m e w i th i m m e d i a t e e ffe c t. H o w d i d th a t e ff e c t t h e f u n c ti o n i n g o f t h e B o a r d ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: 10 I t w a s d e v a s t a ti n g a n d in a w a y th e i m p a c t o f t h a t it h a d a v e r y h a r m f u l i m p a c t , i n t e r ms o f t h e a b il i ty o f t h e B o a r d t o c o n ti n u e w i th t h e b u s i n e s s o f t h e d a y, b e c a u s e a l l o f a s u d d e n w e w e r e i n c o r r e c t , w e c o u l d n ’ t h a v e m e e ti n g s , t h e w o r k t h a t w e h a d s t a r t e d t h a t w a s a i m e d a t d e a l in g w i t h a ll th e s e r e m e d i a l a c ti o n h a d to s t o p b e c a u s e c e r t a i n t h in g s c o u ld n o t b e d o n e w i th o u t a B o a r d t h a t c o u ld t a k e d e c is io n s t h a t a r e p r o p e r a n d b i n d i n g . T h e r e w a s a f iv e m o n t h s g a p w h e r e S A B C d i d n o t r e a lly h a v e a f u n c t i o n in g b o a r d . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l b e fo r e y o u th e b o a r d m e m b e r s w h o r e s i g n e d le t ’s g o b a c k to y o u r b o a r d b e i n g s t o p p e d t o d o w h a t i t b e li e v e d h a d to 20 b e d o n e i n o r d e r t o e x e c u t e i ts m a n d a t e a n d p e r f o r m it s d u ti e s . Yo u h a v e m e n ti o n e d t h a t y o u w e n t t o t h e P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e a n d p r e s e n te d y o u r tu r n a r o u n d s tr a te g y, w h ic h i n c lu d e d c o s t c u t ti n g m e a s u r e s a n d w h ic h c o u l d l e a d t o r e tr e n c h m e n t a n d y o u w e r e s to p p e d w i th o u t a n a l t e r n a t iv e b e i n g p u t o n t h e t a b l e t o s a y i f g o in g th a t r o u t e is w r o n g h e r e is a n a l t e r n a t iv e , d i d I u n d e r s ta n d y o u c o r r e c tl y ? Page 166 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Correct Chairperson. M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: And when you said that y o u w e r e s a y i n g t h a t in r e g a r d t o t h e p o r t f o l io c o m m i t t e e , is t h a t r i g h t ? T h a t t h e p o r tf o li o c o m m i t te e w a s n o t a b le t o g iv e y o u a n a lt e r n a t iv e a n d y e t i t w a s a g a in s t th e c o s t c u tt i n g m e a s u r e s th a t c o u ld i n c lu d e r e tr e n c h m e n t o r a r e s i m p ly s a y i n g th e s t o p p i n g c a m e f r o m s o m e w h e r e e ls e , n o t th e p o r t f o l i o c o m m i t t e e ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H IN I: C h a ir p e r s o n t h e s t o p p in g o f th e t e n u r e o f th e r e t r e n c h m e n t w a s d o n e b y t h e c u r r e n t 10 M i n is t e r, w h o b a s ic a l ly h a d t a k e n o v e r a s t h e n e w M i n i s t e r, w e h a d a m e e ti n g w i t h h e r a s a B o a r d a n d i n t h a t m e e t in g s h e b a s i c a lly s a id th e r e tr e n c h m e n ts s h o u ld n o t c o n ti n u e . W h a t s h e s a i d a t t h e t i m e w a s t h a t s h e n e e d e d m o r e ti m e t o f a m i li a r i s e h e r s e l f w i t h t h e p o r t f o l io a n d t h e r e s p o n s e o f t h e B o a r d w a s th a t w e w o u l d b e w il li n g t o lo o k a t t h e p a c e a n d t h e q u a n t u m o f r e tr e n c h m e n t b u t u n ti l t h e r e is m o n e y w e c a n ’ t s to p b e c a u s e fr o m w h e r e w e a r e s it t in g w e w o u l d b e h e l d l ia b l e a s B o a r d d ir e c t o r s , w e h a v e f id u c i a r y d u t i e s to d o w h a t is r e s p o n s i b l e a n d r ig h t , t o p r o v e t h e p o i n t a n d t h a t t h e B o a r d w a s r i g h t i n t a k i n g t h a t s ta n c e , a l m o s t 2 3 m o n t h s la t e r w e s t il l h a d n o t r e c e iv e d a n y f u n d in g . 20 T h e P o r t f o l i o C o m m i t t e e . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h o w a r e y o u s u p p o s e d t o o p e r a te ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: It becomes very hard, y o u k n o w e v e n f o r u s a s a B o a r d a n d t h e E x e c u t iv e s t h a t w e h a v e b e e n a b l e to a t tr a c t t o c o m e a n d w o r k fo r th e S A B C i f t h e s u p p o r t th a t is n e c e s s a r y f o r t h e m t o i m p l e m e n t t h e i r t u r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y i s n o t g iv e n . Page 167 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 Yo u w o u l d h a v e s e e n fr o m t h e le t t e r t h a t o n e o f t h e B o a r d m e m b e r s , M r M a t h a t h a Ts e d u , r e s i g n e d s p e c i fic a lly b e c a u s e o f th a t , th a t t h e r e i s n o r e s o u r c e s t h a t a r e b e i n g g i v e n f o r u s t o b e a b l e to f u n d w h a t n e e d s t o b e d o n e , s o i t b e c o m e s i m p o s s i b l e a n d r e a lly d e m o r a l is in g f o r u s a s th e B o a r d a n d t h e Ex e c u ti v e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k y o u C h a ir – o h s o r r y. W e l l i t ’s – I g u e s s I w i ll h e a r m o r e a b o u t v a r io u s a s p e c ts b u t i t ’s a m a t te r th a t I a m q u i t e i n te r e s t e d in b e c a u s e a s y o u m a y b e a w a r e i n c o n n e c ti o n w i th t h e e v id e n c e t h a t h a s b e e n g iv e n in 10 t h is C o m m i s s io n i n r e l a ti o n t o w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d i n v a r i o u s S o E ’s o v e r a c e r t a in p e r i o d t h e r e h a s b e e n a v i e w t h a t c e r t a i n B o a r d m e m b e r s o r c e r t a i n B o a r d s d id n ’ t d o t h e i r j o b t h e w a y t h e y s h o u l d h a v e d o n e i t a n d t h a t t h e y m a y h a v e a c t e d c o r r u p tl y, t h a t t h e y m a y h a v e – o r s o m e o f t h e m e m b e r s o f c e r t a i n b o a r d s m a y h a v e b e e n f o r la c k o f a b e t te r w o r d , may have been captured, may have been advancing agendas other than the agenda of the best interest of the SoE concerned, and there has b e e n e v id e n c e b y s o m e w it n e s s e s w h o h a v e s a i d p a r t o f w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d o v e r t h e p a s t f e w y e a r s h a s b e e n t h a t i f i n a p a r t ic u l a r S o E y o u h a v e e x e c u t iv e m a n a g e r s o r B o a r d m e m b e r s w h o w a n t t o d o th e 20 r ig h t thing they are v ic t i m is e d , they are suspended, they are tr a n s fe r r e d , a ll s te p s a r e ta k e n to d r iv e t h e m o u t o f t h e S o E o r th e B o a r d a n d o t h e r p e o p l e a r e p u t in w h o l a te r o n t u r n o u t t o h a v e a ll k in d s o f a ll e g a t io n s o f c o r r u p t io n a g a in s t t h e m a n d i n te r f e r e n c e . T h a t ’s j u s t s p e a k i n g g e n e r a l ly p a r t o f t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t I h a v e h e a r d , s o th e q u e s t io n t h a t m a y a r is e i n r e l a ti o n t o w h a t y o u h a v e t o l d Page 168 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 m e i s w h e t h e r w e m a y h a v e a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e a t S A B C – S A B C h a d f o u n d a B o a r d t h a t w a n te d to d o t h e r i g h t t h i n g , a n d l o o k a f t e r t h e in t e r e s t o f t h e S A B C a n d m a y h a v e ta k e n – m a y h a v e d o n e a l o t o f w o r k in g o o d fa i th to tr y a n d m a k e s u r e th a t t h e y m a k e a d i ff e r e n c e i n a n in s t i tu t io n th a t w a s g o in g d o w n , b u t w h e n th e y p u t o n th e ta b l e s o l u ti o n s t h a t p o li ti c i a n s m i g h t n o t h a v e lik e d , m a y b e b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e e l e c t io n s c o m i n g t h o s e p o l i tic i a n s s to p p e d t h e m . Wa s i t – w a s t h a t i m p r o p e r i n t e r fe r e n c e i n th e p e r f o r m a n c e o f t h e d u t ie s o f a B o a r d th a t w a s tr y i n g t o s o l v e a p r o b le m , tr y i n g t o d o 10 t h e ir jo b , o r w a s th a t n o t a n i m p r o p e r in t e r fe r e n c e , w a s i t a le g it i m a t e in t e r v e n t i o n , s o th e r e is t h a t q u e s t i o n t h a t I t h i n k I w i ll h a v e t o l o o k a t , but it becomes more important because you may not in a number of c a s e s t h a t I h a v e h a d r e l a ti n g to S o E ’s t h e c r i tic is m w o u l d b e l e v e l le d maybe at the government and maybe at people who are members of the r u l i n g p a r t y, b u t fr o m w h a t w e h a v e s a i d I th in k y o u h a v e s a i d t h a t o p p o s it i o n p a r ti e s w e r e a l s o s a y i n g n o , n o , n o , n o , y o u c a n n o t r e tr e n c h , d o n ’t r e tr e n c h . S o th a t m a y r a i s e t h e q u e s t i o n w h e t h e r p a r t o f t h e p r o b l e m w e h a v e i n S o u t h A f r ic a is th a t p e o p le th a t o c c u p y c e r t a i n p o s i t io n s , w h o 20 a r e s u p p o s e d to s ta n d fo r w h a t i s r ig h t , w i ll n o t s ta n d f o r w h a t is r ig h t , f o r p o l i tic a l r e a s o n s , f o r e x p e d i e n c e , o r w h a t w a s t h e p o s i ti o n . To w h a t e x t e n t in o t h e r w o r d s w a s t h e S A B C B o a r d s t o p p e d fr o m d o in g w h a t w a s c o m m e r c ia ll y c o r r e c t , ju s t b e c a u s e o f c o n s i d e r a t i o n s m a y b e th a t s h o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n – s h o u ld n o t h a v e c o m e i n t o th e p ic t u r e . Maybe t h e y s h o u ld h a v e , m a y b e th e y s h o u l d n ’ t h a v e , I d o n ’ t k n o w b u t th a t ’s Page 169 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 o n e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t I th i n k is i m p o r t a n t fo r m e t o u n d e r s ta n d a n d m a y b e y o u m ig h t b e a b l e t o s p e a k o n i t u p to a c e r t a i n p o i n t, b u t o t h e r w i t n e s s e s w i ll ta k e it f u r th e r b u t I th o u g h t I m u s t j u s t m e n ti o n t h a t b e c a u s e I a m in t e r e s t e d i n k n o w i n g w h e t h e r t h a t w a s n ’t a n i m p r o p e r in t e r fe r e n c e w i t h t h e B o a r d p e r fo r m i n g i ts d u t ie s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H ATH I N I: Th a n k y o u C h a i r p e r s o n . I m u s t s a y t h a t m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f h o w a c a p t u r e h a s m a t e r ia li s e d o r h a p p e n e d in m o s t o f t h e s e S o E ’s , c e r t a i n l y c r e d ib l e , c o m p e te n t , e x p e r i e n c e d p e o p l e o f i n t e g r i ty g e ts v ic t i m is e d , t h e y g e t p u s h e d o u t 10 a n d fr u s tr a t e d , a n d t h e y g e t fr u s tr a t e d i n a n u m b e r o f w a y s t o a p o in t w h e r e y o u h a v e t o a s k y o u r s e l f w h y m u s t I c o n ti n u e d o i n g t h is i f o n e I a m n o t g e t t in g th e s u p p o r t t h a t I t h in k I s h o u ld b e g e t ti n g b u t a ls o g e t t in g to a p o i n t w h e r e t h e y a t t a c k y o u p e r s o n a ll y a n d p u t y o u r l i fe a t r is k , j u s t f o r t r y i n g to d o w h a t is r i g h t . S o I c a n s a y t h a t w h a t r e s u l te d t o t h i s C o m m i s s i o n b e in g – d o i n g th e w o r k t h a t i t i s d o i n g it is s ti ll a r e a li ty fo r u s , y o u k n o w w e a r e s ti ll l iv in g u n d e r th o s e c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h e r e y o u w o r r y a b o u t y o u r s a f e t y, f o r j u s t tr y i n g t o d o w h a t is r i g h t , a n d w h a t is t h e m o s t fr u s tr a ti n g t h i n g s a t t i m e s t h e y w i ll c o v e r s o m e o f t h e s e th in g s a s 20 tr a n s fo r m a t i o n , t h e y w il l l a b e l y o u a s s o m e b o d y w h o i s a g a in s t tr a n s fo r m a t i o n w h e n th e y a r e h id i n g c o r r u p ti o n u n d e r tr a n s fo r m a t i o n , o r t h e y w il l la b e l a s s o m e b o d y w h o is g e n d e r i n s e n s i t iv e , j u s t b e c a u s e t h e y w a n t t o c o v e r c e r t a i n th in g s u s i n g g e n d e r a n d tr a n s f o r m a ti o n , a n d w h e n y o u l o o k a t w h a t th e P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r f o u n d a b o u t p r e s s u r e o f c o m p e te n t e x p e r i e n c e d p e o p l e a n d t h o s e p e o p l e b e i n g r e p la c e d b y Page 170 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 p e o p l e w h o w e r e n o t t h a t q u a li f ie d a n d w i t h o u t n e c e s s a r i ly f o ll o w i n g p r o c e s s e s w h a t h a p p e n e d i n t h a t 2 0 1 4 i s s ti ll h a p p e n in g t o d a y. S o th a t i n te r f e r e n c e w a s n ’ t p r o p e r, in a s e n s e t h a t t h e s tr a t e g y o f t h e o r g a n is a ti o n , S A B C , in t h i s c a s e , i s d r a f t e d b y t h e e x e c u ti v e t e a m , a p p r o v e d b y t h e B o a r d , o n ly t h e B o a r d c a n a p p r o v e t h e s tr a t e g y a n d t h e e x e c u ti v e t h e n m u s t i m p l e m e n t t h a t s tr a t e g y, n o b o d y e ls e , n o t t h e M i n i s t e r, n o t P a r li a m e n t c a n c o m e a n d s a y t h is s t r a t e g y i s n o t r i g h t . W e w i ll ta k e in p u t a s w e h a v e a l w a y s s a id , b u t th e a p p r o v a l s i ts w i th t h e B o a r d , s o s t o p p i n g t h e i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f t h e s tr a t e g y 10 w i t h o u t p r o v i d i n g s o u n d a lt e r n a tiv e s it s i m p r o p e r a n d w h y I s a y t h e r e ’s n o a l t e r n a ti v e g iv e n w e a r e a t 2 4 m o n th s d o w n th e li n e , o u r fi n a n c i a l s i tu a ti o n h a s w o r s e n e d , w e h a v e h a d i n s t a n c e s w h e r e w e h a d d i e s e l s p i ll a g e , o u r e m p lo y e e s e n d e d u p in h o s p it a l b e c a u s e w e h a d n ’ t b e e n a b l e t o m a i n t a i n o u r b u il d i n g s , w e h a v e n ’ t b e e n a b l e t o i n v e s t i n c o n te n t , w e h a v e n ’ t b e e n a b l e t o p a y p e o p l e w h o s u p p ly u s w it h c o n te n t , w e o w e a l m o s t R 2 b i ll i o n a n d t h a t t a lk s to t h e c o n t e n t p r o v i d e r s , s i g n a l d is tr ib u ti o n c o s ts a n d s o fo r t h , s o i t is o k a y to g iv e in p u t , a n a l te r n a ti v e b u t y o u c a n ’ t j u s t s t o p s o m e t h i n g w it h o u t p r o v i d i n g a n a l t e r n a t iv e . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l m a y b e I c o u l d j u s t m e n ti o n t h i s i n t h i s c o n t e x t , I h e a r d e v i d e n c e e a r l i e r t h is y e a r r e l a ti n g t o D e n e l, i n t e r m s o f w h a t h a p p e n e d t o D e n e l , t h e e v i d e n c e h a s n ’t b e e n c o m p l e t e d a n d t h e r e w i ll b e a n o t h e r p h a s e b u t o n e o f th e w i t n e s s e s I th in k w a s C h a ir p e r s o n o f a c e r t a i n B o a r d o f D e n e l a n d th e e v i d e n c e s e e m t o s u g g e s t t h a t t h a t B o a r d h a d d o n e a v e r y g o o d jo b b u t s h e s a i d i t w a s r e p la c e d a n d a f t e r Page 171 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 it w a s r e p la c e d c e r t a i n t h i n g s h a p p e n e d , a n d I w il l h e a r t h e r e s t o f t h e e v i d e n c e , s o I a m j u s t li n k i n g w h a t I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t to s a y h e r e is a n e x a m p l e w h e r e a B o a r d w a s s a i d t o h a v e b e e n d o i n g q u i te w e ll , I th i n k the M i n is te r who was responsible for D e n e l I th in k th e r e was c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w h ic h s u g g e s t e d th a t t h e M i n is t e r w a s a ls o - h a d in d i c a t e d th a t th e B o a r d h a d d o n e v e r y w e ll , a n d s o o n , s o it is is i m p o r t a n t t o e x a m i n e h o w th e b o a r d s o p e r a te b u t a l s o to s e e w h e t h e r t h e y tr y t o d o t h e ir j o b t h e r e is i m p r o p e r in t e r f e r e n c e , w h e t h e r t h a t h a p p e n e d m a n y y e a r s a g o u n d e r a n o th e r Pr e s i d e n t a n d w h e th e r i t 10 happens now under a new President I have got to look at everything, I a m n o t g o i n g t o l o o k a t o n e a n d n o t t h e o t h e r, w e m u s t l o o k a t e v e r y t h i n g b e c a u s e i n th e e n d w e m u s t b e a b l e t o s a y y e s t h e fo ll o w i n g t h i n g s a r e i m p r o p e r in t e r f e r e n c e t h e y s h o u l d n o t h a p p e n i n o r d e r f o r t h e B o a r d t o o p e r a t e p r o p e r ly t h e s e a r e t h e t h i n g s t h a t m u s t h a p p e n , b e c a u s e i n th e m e a n t i m e I a m s u r e t h a t a l o t o f c r i tic is m is d ir e c t e d a t t h e B o a r d i n t h e p u b l ic d o m a i n . Ye s , t h a n k y o u . Yo u m i g h t o r mi g h t n o t w is h t o a d d a n y th i n g , ja o k a y, c o n t in u e Ms N o r m a n . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a ir. M a y b e l e t’s s k ip t h e n a n d d e a l w i t h t h e m a t t e r s th a t t h e C h a ir h a s j u s t r a is e d w i t h y o u , a n d t h o s e a r e th e m a t t e r s t h a t w e w e r e g o i n g t o d e a l w it h l a t e r, b u t le t ’s d e a l w i t h t h e m . T h e is s u e o f f u n d i n g , i n p a r a g r a p h 1 6 , 1 7 y o u d e a l w i t h th e f a c t t h a t t h e S A B C a p p li e d f o r g o v e r n m e n t f u n d i n g , s o t h e n t h e r e ’s a d is t in c t i o n , a m I c o r r e c t b e t w e e n p a r a g r a p h 1 7 a n d w h a t y o u d e a l w i t h i n p a r a g r a p h 2 0 , w h e r e y o u d e a l w i t h t h e b a i l- o u t , Page 172 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 g o v e r n m e n t g u a r a n t e e , a n d a ls o y o u d e a l in p a r a g r a p h 1 7 w i t h g o v e r n m e n t fu n d i n g . L e t ’s t a lk a b o u t t h e g o v e r n m e n t fu n d i n g t h a t y o u a p p l ie d f o r, t h a t i s t h e S A B C a p p li e d fo r in 2 0 1 7 . A lr i g h t. CHAIRPERSON: I’ m s o r r y M s N o r m a n , I m a y h a v e i n te r r u p t e d y o u r p l a n , a t a c e r ta i n s t a g e y o u w e r e d e a l in g w i t h t h e r e a s o n s g iv e n b y th e la s t – g iv e n i n th e la s t l e tt e r o f r e s i g n a ti o n a n d y o u h a d s a id y o u w o u l d g o b a c k w a r d s , s o I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u s t il l w a n t t o f in is h t h a t o r w h e t h e r y o u . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n ) 10 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: O r m a y b e .. . ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m j u s t f e e l in g g u i lt y t h a t I h a v e m a y i n te r r u p t e d y o u o r y o u r p la n . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: N o n o t a t a ll C h a ir, w e g o b a c k to th e m , b u t t h is . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: B u t t h i s w i l l l in k in n ic e l y w i t h w h a t y o u h a v e ju s t r a is e d y e s t h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, o k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 Okay could you then tell the Chair about t h is a p p l ic a ti o n t h a t y o u m a d e – th a t w a s m a d e b y th e S A B C to g o v e r n m e n t i n 2 0 1 7 , w h a t w a s th is fo r ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H ATH I N I: Th a n k y o u C h a i r p e r s o n . After the work that was done by the Parliament ad hoc committee f o ll o w i n g u p o n t h e 2 0 1 4 r e p o r t th a t w a s d o n e , o r i s s u e d b y t h e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r, i t b e c a m e c le a r t h a t S A B C w a s i n d ir e fi n a n c i a l Page 173 of 216 need, and 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 w h a t th e n h a p p e n e d a t th e ti m e t h e i n t e r i m b o a r d c a m e in F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 7 a n d r o u n d a b o u t J u n e th e y p u t t h e ir fir s t g o v e r n m e n t g u a r a n t e e a p p lic a ti o n . I t w a s a g o v e r n m e n t g u a r a n t e e a p p li c a t io n t o g o v e r n m e n t , a n d t h a t b a s ic a lly d id n ’ t m a t e r ia lis e a n d i n 2 0 1 7 N o v e m b e r a n o t h e r a p p lic a ti o n w e n t i n b y t h e p e r m a n e n t b o a r d , t h a t I a m s t il l p a r t o f , a n d t h a t w a s r e a lly to h e lp S A B C o u t o f th e s i tu a ti o n t h a t w e w e r e f a c e d with. I h a v e a lr e a d y t o u c h e d o n th e i n a b i li ty o f t h e S A B C t o h o n o u r t h e ir m o n t h ly o b li g a t io n to t h e s u p p l ie r s , I h a v e t o u c h e d o n la c k o f f u n d s t o m a i n ta i n o u r b r o a d c a s ti n g i n fr a s tr u c t u r e . 10 I h a v e a ls o to u c h e d o n t h e S A B C i n a b il i ty t o i n v e s t in c o n t e n t . I n b r o a d c a s t in g y o u n e e d t o in v e s t b e t w e e n 2 4 m o n t h s t o 3 6 m o n t h s i n advance, for you to be able to recoup or get some revenue coming out o f th e a d v e r t is in g , s o t h a t a p p l ic a t i o n w e n t s p e c i fi c a ll y fo r th a t , b u t I m u s t a ls o d i s ti n g u is h th a t in t e r ms o f w h a t w e g e t fr o m g o v e r n m e n t S A B C h a s g o t a n u m b e r o f s tr i n g s i n t e r ms o f r e v e n u e , 8 5 % o f o u r r e v e n u e i t’s c o m m e r c i a l r e v e n u e s s o w h i c h m e a n s w e h a v e t o g o o u t t h e r e , c o m p l e t e w i t h o t h e r p la y e r s f o r a d v e r ti s i n g r e v e n u e s , l ik e a n y o th e r b r o a d c a s t in g , t h a t’s w h a t w e h a v e t o d o , 8 5 % . A b o u t 1 3 /1 4 % o f o u r r e v e n u e c o m e s fr o m T V lic e n s e s , t h a t ’s 20 w h y I to u c h e d o n t h e i m p o r ta n c e o f r e l o o k i n g a t t h e a m o u n t p e o p l e p a y t o w a r d s T V l ic e n s e s , b u t g o v e r n m e n t g iv e u s 3 % , s o i f y o u lo o k i n t h e la s t f in a n c ia l y e a r 3 % m a y b e a m o u n t s t o a b o u t 2 0 0 m il li o n b u t i f y o u lo o k a t t h e m a n d a te t h e p u b lic m a n d a te t h a t S A B C h a s to c a r r y i t r u n s o v e r 3 b il li o n , t h a t ’s t h e s i tu a ti o n w e ’r e f a c e d w i t h . A n d in p a r a g r a p h 2 0 I a m r e fe r r i n g to th a t f u n d i n g t h a t h a s n o t Page 174 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 y e t c o m e , i t is t h e r e a s o n w h y M a t h a t h a Ts e d u r e s ig n e d a t th e t i m e w h e n h e r e s i g n e d in D e c e m b e r, i t is t h e s a m e r e a s o n w e ’r e s i t ti n g h e r e t o d a y w e s til l d o n ’ t h a v e t h e f u n d in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll M r M a k h a t h i n i y o u p la c e d b e f o r e P a r li a m e n t, a n d t h e r e f o r e b e f o r e t h e N a t i o n , th e B o a r d ’s t u r n a r o u n d s tr a te g y, b y w h i c h y o u w e r e s a y i n g t h is is h o w w e t h i n k t h e s i tu a ti o n a t th e S A B C c a n b e t u r n e d a r o u n d , a lr i g h t . A n d w i th r e g a r d t o y o u r c o s t c u t t i n g m e a s u r e s , i n p a r t ic u l a r r e tr e n c h m e n t , y o u w e r e s to p p e d . Yo u h a v e n o t b e e n g i v e n f u n d in g t h a t 10 y o u h a v e j u s t t a lk e d a b o u t . H a s a n y b o d y, h a s g o v e r n m e n t o r a n y b o d y p u t b e f o r e y o u a n a l t e r n a t iv e p l a n , w h a t is i t t w o y e a r s a f t e r y o u p u t y o u r t u r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y b e fo r e P a r l i a m e n t , h a s a n y b o d y s a id w e d o n ’t a g r e e w i t h y o u r t u r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y, h e r e i s a b e t te r o n e ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d t h e s h a r e h o l d e r, th e M i n is te r, b a s ic a l ly o ff e r e d s e r v ic e s o f a n e n t i ty c a ll e d G Te c h w h ic h is a g o v e r n m e n t e n ti ty th a t a s s is t s w i t h s tr a t e g y p r o je c t s . S o t h a t e n t i ty w a s m e a n t to c o m e in a n d h e l p u s e n h a n c e o u r s tr a t e g y, w h ic h w e w e lc o m e d . I m e a n a n y i n p u t c a n b e o f – c a n h e l p , s o t h a t te a m c a m e i n a n d t h e y a r e d u e t o p r e s e n t t h e ir fi n a l 20 v e r s i o n o f t h e i r s tr a t e g y I t h in k n e x t w e e k t o t h e Ex e c u ti v e Te a m , b u t w h e n y o u l o o k a t w h a t t h e y h a v e c o m e u p w i t h , t h e y h a v e n ’t c o m e u p w i t h a n y th i n g n e w, th e y h a v e a c t u a l ly t o a c e r t a i n e x t e n t , a g r e a t e x t e n t endorsed what the Board had put in place. To p r o v e t o y o u t h a t th a t s tr a t e g y th a t w a s p u t b y t h e E x e c u t iv e Te a m a t t h e t i m e t h e r e a s o n w h y w e h a v e k e p t S A B C g o i n g , Page 175 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 a fl o a t , f o r a l m o s t t w o y e a r s w i t h o u t a n y f u n d in g i t is b e c a u s e o f th a t t u r n a r o u n d s t r a t e g y t h a t w e p u t t o g e t h e r. I t i s b e c a u s e o f th e c a li b r e o f t h e e x e c u tiv e s t h a t w e h a v e b e e n a b le t o a tt r a c t . I t is b e c a u s e o f th e c o m m i t m e n t o f s o m e o f o u r c li e n t s w h o c o n t in u e t o i n v e s t w it h S A B C , r u n t h e ir a d s o n S A B C p l a t f o r m . I t is a l s o b e c a u s e o f o u r e m p lo y e e s , w h o i n s p it e o f t h e d a n g e r t h e y fa c e w h e n t h e y g o to o u r b u il d i n g s , t h a t a r e f a ll in g a p a r t , c o n t in u e t o c o m e t o w o r k , a n d d e l iv e r o n th e ir m a n d a t e a n d w h a t is e x p e c te d o f t h e m , i n s p i te o f t h e s i t u a t io n w e ’r e f a c e d w i t h , s o i n e s s e n c e w e h a v e 10 n o t b e e n g iv e n a n y t h in g o t h e r t h a n t h e s u p p o r t w e g o t fr o m G Te c h b u t o f c o u r s e t h e r e a r e e n g a g e m e n ts , b u t a t s o m e p o i n t e n g a g e m e n t y o u know ... CHAIRPERSON: They must produce. M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H IN I: They must produce something. C H A I R P E R S O N : R e s u lt s , j a , a n d t h e y h a v e n ’ t . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A n d t h e y h a v e n ’t . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. The Minister of Fi n a n c e r e c e n tl y w a s o n t e l e v i s i o n a n n o u n c i n g t h e b a il - o u ts to t h e 20 v a r io u s S o E ’s , E s k o m a n d t o t h e S A B C , a n d m y r e c o ll e c t io n is t h a t a R 3 . 2 b i ll io n w a s g o i n g t o b e o ffe r e d t o t h e S A B C – w a s o ffe r e d t o t h e S A B C , b u t t h e M in is t e r m a d e i t v e r y c l e a r th a t t h a t w a s g o in g to c o m e w i t h c o n d i ti o n s . N o w t h e q u e s t io n is y o u m a y n o t b e g e t ti n g th e f u n d i n g b e c a u s e y o u h a v e n o t m e t t h e c o n d i ti o n s t h a t th e M in is t e r, o r N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y, h a s p u t u p . W h a t is y o u r r e s p o n s e to t h a t ? Page 176 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: W e a c t u a l ly a g r e e w i t h t h e M i n i s te r t h a t a n y f u n d in g m u s t c o m e w it h c o n d i ti o n s . It is t h e r i g h t t h i n g t o d o , b e c a u s e p e o p l e m u s t b e h e l d a c c o u n ta b l e , y o u c a n ’ t j u s t g iv e m o n e y a n d n o t h o l d p e o p l e a c c o u n ta b l e . S o t h a t b a i l- o u t o f R 3 . 2 b i ll io n c a m e w i th e le v e n c o n d i t io n s a n d a s th e S A B C w e h a v e m e t t h o s e c o n d i ti o n s , o r s u b s t a n t ia ll y m e t , c o m p l e te ly m e t th o s e c o n d it i o n s , b e c a u s e i t is a b o u t e le v e n o f th e m , a n d s o m e o f t h o s e c o n d i ti o n s a r e v e r y i n te r e s t in g . O n e o f t h e c o n d i t io n s f o r e x a m p l e s a y s w h a t is t h e r e a s o n w h y th e p r e v i o u s t u r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y w a s n o t s u c c e s s fu l , b e fo r e 10 o u r ti m e . T h a t w a s b e f o r e th is B o a r d , t h i s w a s b e f o r e th e E x e c u tiv e s t h a t w e h a v e , b e c a u s e w e h a v e i n h e r i t e d a b r o k e n o r g a n i s a t io n . I mean we were not there. Government was there to put that a s a c o n d i ti o n to r e l e a s e t h e 3 . 2 b ill i o n t o a n o r g a n is a ti o n a n d to a t e a m t h a t i s p r e p a r e d t o d o t h e r ig h t w o r k l e a v e s a l o t y o u k n o w t o q u e s t io n . B u t in e s s e n c e w e h a v e m e t a l l t h e c o n d it i o n s . In areas w h e r e t h e r e is m a y b e i s s u e s I a m s u r e i t i s b e c a u s e it is n o t p o s s i b l e to f u ll y m e e t s o m e o f t h e th in g s n o w. To g iv e a n e x a m p l e i f s o m e b o d y s a y s g i v e m e a s e n s e o f y o u r n o n - c o r e a s s e ts ? A lr i g h t . N o w b e fo r e y o u s a y t h a t r a d io s ta t io n is n o t p r o f i ta b l e a s a p u b li c b r o a d c a s t e r y o u 20 c a n n o t j u s t d e c o m m is s i o n o r s e ll t h a t o r p u t i t a s n o n c o r e w i th o u t u n d e r s t a n d in g w h a t w i ll b e t h e i m p a c t o f t h a t d e c i s i o n o n y o u f u l f il li n g y o u r p u b li c m a n d a t e ? B e c a u s e it m a y n o t b e m a k i n g m o n e y b u t i t m a y b e h e l p i n g u s m e e t o u r p u b li c m a n d a te . S o y o u h a v e g o t to e v a l u a te t h e s e a s s e ts a n d e v a l u a t e th e i m p a c t o f s e ll in g t h e m i f y o u w a n t t o s e ll t h e m . Page 177 of 216 B u t y o u c a n n o t ju s t 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 w a k e u p a n d s e ll t h i n g s w i th o u t a s s e s s i n g t h e i m p a c t . P a r t o f th e p r o b le m S A B C f in d s i t s e l f in t h e y w e n t i n to d e a l s w i th o u t e v a l u a ti n g t h e ir a s s e t s t o k n o w w h a t t o d e m a n d w h e n th e y g e t to n e g o t i a t i n g t a b le s . W e a r e n o t g o i n g t o d o t h a t. W e w i ll d o w h a t is n e c e s s a r y a n d w e w i ll a d h e r e to th e P u b li c M a n a g e m e n t F in a n c e A c t a n d w e w il l a d h e r e t o t h a t . A n d a n y b o d y w h o e x p e c t u s t o d o s tu ff w i t h o u t c o m p ly i n g w i th t h e p r e s c r i p t o f t h e la w w e a r e n o t g o i n g t o d o i t. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d n o w t h e s e – t h e s e c o n d i t io n s I w o u l d i m a g i n e h o w a r e y o u – a r e y o u s u p p o s e d t o u p d a t e N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y 10 a s y o u m e e t y o u o r w e r e y o u j u s t s i m p ly g o i n g t o r e p o r t t o N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y t h a t y o u a s k e d – y o u p u t u p e l e v e n c o n d i ti o n s a n d w e h a v e c o m p li e d w it h s ix o r w e a r e s ti ll c o m p ly i n g w i t h s e v e n . How are you s u p p o s e d to r e s p o n d t o – t o y o u – y o u r c o m p li a n c e i n t e r m s o f t h o s e c o n d i ti o n s ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: S o b a s i c a ll y th e y p u t th e c o n d i ti o n s t o u s w e th e n in fo r m a l w e w r o te to th e m p r e s e n ti n g w h a t t h e y n e e d e d f o r u s to c o m p ly. B u t a ls o w e h a v e h a d m e e ti n g s b e t w e e n t h e e x e c u t iv e a n d N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y t o a li g n o n i t . E v e n o n t h e l e t te r t h a t w a s s e n t t o u s w e h a v e r e s p e c t f u l ly r e s p o n d e d t o t h a t l e t te r a n d 20 s a i d m a y b e t h e M i n i s te r s w e r e n o t g i v e n t h e i n f o r m a t io n t h a t w e s h a r e d w i t h t h e m ? B e c a u s e t h e tr u th o f th e m a tt e r is w e h a v e fu lly c o m p li e d . In areas where we have not – we 90% there. S o w e h a v e f o r m a l ly c o m m u n ic a te d a n d n o t y e s t e r d a y m o n t h s a g o . I w ill s a y fo u r to s ix m o n th a g o w e s t a r t e d s o r t o f l ik e a d h e r i n g a n d r e s p o n d in g t o t h o s e c o n d i ti o n s . Page 178 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: A n d m a y b e th e la s t p o i n t t h a t I n e e d to m e n t i o n j u s t t o c l a r i fy th i n g s . T h e G - Te c h w h i c h i s a n e n t i ty t h a t is h e l p i n g t o b o o s t o u r s tr a te g y w a s a c t u a l ly b r o u g h t in t o h e l p u s b u t i f y o u lo o k a t s o m e o f t h e c o m m e n t s a b o u t w h e r e t h e y a r e s a y in g w e h a v e n o t c o m p li e d th e y r e l ie d o n th e o r i g i n a l v e r s i o n o f t h e G - Te c h R e p o r t w h i c h h a s b e e n i m p r o v e d . B e c a u s e w h e n y o u c o m e i n t o a n o r g a n i s a t io n y o u w il l d o o b s e r v a t io n s u n t il y o u e n g a g e w i t h p e o p le w h o w o r k t h e r e y o u m a y g e t c e r t a in t h in g s w r o n g b u t o n c e t h e y s a t w i th 10 t h e t e a m , t h e y s a t w i th t h e b o a r d w h e r e w e g a v e i n p u t . S o t o r e ly o n t h e o r ig in a l v e r s io n w h ic h w a s n o t c h e c k e d a n d v a l i d a t e d w i th t h e e x e c u tiv e a n d th e b o a r d i s w r o n g . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . M a y b e w h ils t w e a r e s t il l d e a l in g w i t h t h e f in a n c e s m a y b e it is i m p o r t a n t f o r m e t o t a k e y o u b a c k t o p a r a g r a p h 1 5 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t a t p a g e 6 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t . Yo u d e a l w i t h t h e d ir e s i t u a t i o n 2 0 1 8 /2 0 1 9 f in a n c ia l y e a r. And you say the c o r p o r a t io n e n d e d M a r c h 2 0 1 9 w i t h a c a s h b a l a n c e o f o n ly R 7 2 m i ll i o n . N o w w h a t I w o u l d li k e t o k n o w o n e w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d n o w b e c a u s e p a r t o f – o r i f n o t m o s t o f t h e P u b li c Pr o t e c to r ’s R e m e d i a l a c ti o n h a d 20 b e e n p u t in p la c e y o u w o u l d h a v e p u t i n p l a c e t h e A d - H o c C o m m i t te e p r o p o s a l s o r r e c o m m e n d a t io n s . W h a t i s i t t h a t r e a ll y p u t th e S A B C i n t h is s i tu a ti o n n o w i n th is fi n a n c i a l y e a r ? L e a v e t h e f a c t t h a t y o u w e r e a s k in g f o r a g u a r a n te e I a m j u s t t a l k i n g a b o u t th e o p e r a t io n s a n d th e fi n a n c i a l s t a t u s a t t h is p o i n t? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H IN I: Page 179 of 216 I i n d ic a t e d th a t i n 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 b r o a d c a s t in g y o u n e e d t o i n v e s t 2 4 t o 3 6 m o n th s i n a d v a n c e fo r y o u t o b e a b l e t o g e t t h e b e n e fi t o f t h a t in v e s t m e n t. To p u t t o g e t h e r a s o a p i e t a k e m o n t h s a g o o d o n e th a t c a n e n d u p p e r f o r m i n g li k e U z a l o fo r a n e x a m p l e . I t t a k e s m o n t h s . S o w h y w e h a v e n o t b e e n a b l e t o a c h ie v e m u c h is b e c a u s e th o u g h w e h a v e a s o li d t u r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y b u t th a t t u r n a r o u n d n e e d e d fi n a n c i a l i n j e c t i o n . B u t I h a v e a l s o to u c h e d o n th e r e g u la t o r y a n d p o l ic y is s u e s th a t h a s c r i p p l e d t h e S A B C . r e g u la t io n s a n d p o lic i e s h a v e n o t b e e n c h a n g e d . Those Ye s IC A S A h a s s t a r t e d a p r o c e s s to r e v i e w t h o s e b u t a s w e s ta n d to d a y th e s t a tu s q u o 10 s t il l s ta n d s . S o i t b a s i c a ll y m e a n s t h a t w e a r e s ti ll a ff e c t e d h e a v ily b y t h o s e t h in g s . B u t t h e e ff o r ts a r o u n d t h e P u b lic P r o te c to r i n t e r m s o f tr y i n g t o r e c o v e r t h e m o n i e s h a v e n o t h e a l e d t h a t m u c h b e c a u s e w e have not recovered anything. Ye s w e a r e i n c o u r t . There are seven c a s e s t h a t a lr e a d y i n li ti g a ti n g i n c o u r t b u t t h a t p r o c e s s c a n ta k e y e a r s b e f o r e w e c a n s e e m o n e y fl o w i n g b a c k t o t h e S A B C . S o w h e r e w e a r e w e a r e s u ff e r in g b e c a u s e o f t h e p o o r d e c i s io n s t h a t w e r e m a d e a t t h e ti m e t h e la n d s c a p e t h a t h a s n o t r e a ll y c h a n g e d w it h te c h n o l o g y, in n o v a t i o n a n d h o w o u r a u d ie n c e s c o n s u m e o u r c o n te n ts . 20 S o t h a t is why we are where we are. B u t in s p i te o f t h a t t h e fa c t t h a t w e h a v e k e p t t h e o r g a n i s a t io n g o i n g i t te lls y o u t h a t th e tu r n a r o u n d s t r a t e g y h a s g o t p o t e n ti a l to fi x the SABC. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Is th a t w h e r e y o u t a lk a b o u t t h e 3 3 i m p r o v e m e n t in p a r a g r a p h 1 6 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t? Page 180 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 33%. M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: A n d y o u d e a l w i t h t h e fi g u r e s t h e r e . W o u l d y o u m i n d j u s t p u t ti n g t h o s e o n r e c o r d ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: O k a y I m e a n in m e t r y i n g t o e n s u r e , e x p l a in a n d j u s t i fy w h y w e s a i d a c o m p r e h e n s i v e t u r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y w o r k s . If y o u l o o k a t t h e n u m b e r s th e y e a r 2 0 1 8 / 2 0 1 9 u n a u d i t e d l o s s f o r t h e S A B C s i t ti n g a t a b o u t 4 8 3 m il li o n . L o s s e s h a v e 10 decreased over th e past number of years fr o m R1 b i ll io n in 2 0 1 6 /2 0 1 7 d o w n t o R 6 2 2 m i ll io n i n 2 0 1 7 /2 0 1 8 a n d a n u n a u d i te d lo s s o f R 4 8 3 m i ll io n i n 2 0 1 8 / 2 0 1 9 s o t h a t is a n i m p r o v e m e n t o f a b o u t 3 3 % . I t s h o w s t h a t i f w e h a d b e e n g i v e n t h e m o n e y a t t h e ti m e w e r e q u e s te d it w e c o u l d h a v e g o t S A B C t o b r e a k e v e n in 2 4 m o n t h s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A c tu a lly t h e f ig u r e s t h a t y o u h a v e j u s t r e a d d o – d o s h o w t h a t e a c h y e a r s i n c e – s i n c e t h e f ir s t y e a r – fi n a n c i a l y e a r t h a t y o u m e n ti o n e d t h e lo s s e s h a v e b e e n g o i n g d o w n . T h e r e h a s b e e n a n i m p r o v e m e n t in t h e lo s s e s . I s t h a t r i g h t ? 20 M R B O N G U M U SA E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I : I t is r i g h t C h a ir p e r s o n yes. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : A c tu a lly s i g n i fic a n t i m p r o v e m e n ts . MR BONGUMUSA EMMANUEL M A K H AT H I N I: Page 181 of 216 That is correct 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . I n p a r a g r a p h 1 9 y o u to u c h o n s o m e t h i n g t h a t th e C h a ir p e r s o n a lr e a d y a s k e d y o u a b o u t w h e n h e w a s g iv i n g y o u t h e s c e n a r io s a b o u t w h e th e r c e r t a in e x e c u t iv e s o r t h e c e r t a i n b o a r d s d o n o t d o t h i n g s a c c o r d i n g to c e r ta i n w is h e s o f m a y b e y o u r p o li t ic a l h e a d s o r s o m e t h i n g b u t y o u d e a l w i t h it a n d y o u s a y t h e d e p o l i tic is in g o f t h e S A B C is o f p a r a m o u n t i m p o r t a n c e . C o u l d y o u ju s t e x p l a i n t o t h e C h a ir w h a t y o u m e a n b y t h a t? N o w w e t a l k i n g n o t – w e 10 t a lk in g i f y o u h a v e e x a m p le s o f w h a t y o u m e a n b y th a t y o u c o u l d j u s t g iv e t h o s e e x a m p l e s b u t y o u w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d w h y y o u b e l i e v e t h a t t h e S A B C n e e d s th is m o s t . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Th a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n . I f y o u l o o k a t w h a t w a s [ in d is ti n c t ] a s t h e o u tc o m e o f t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r R e p o r t – I n v e s ti g a ti o n s a n d th e A d d o C o m m i t te e i t t a l k s t o a le a d e r s h i p t h a t w a s n o t d o i n g w h a t w a s e x p e c t e d o f t h e m fr o m a ju d i c i a r y d u ty p e r s p e c t iv e . I t a ls o t a l k e d to p e o p l e w h o w e r e n o t prepared to defend the independence of the SABC. Now that comes fr o m i n o t h e r i n s t a n c e s w h e n y o u g o i n g t o g iv e – g o i n g t o g iv e j o b s a n d 20 p o s i ti o n t o p e o p le w h o a r e n o t s u i t e d f o r t h o s e r o l e s t h o s e p e o p l e g e t desperate to please. S o to d e p o li ti c is e S A B C m e a n t o n e o f t h e k e y t h i n g s w e h a d t o d o w a s t o g e t t h e e x e c u t i v e te a m t h a t w a s c o m p e t e n t , e x p e r i e n c e d a n d a t t h e s a m e t i m e h a v in g h i g h l e v e ls o f i n t e g r i t y s o t h a t t h e y c a n d o w h a t is e x p e c t e d r e g a r d le s s o f th e p u s h b a c k o r t h e c h a l le n g e s t h a t t h e y fa c e . S o d o i n g t h a t i t a c tu a lly r e s t o r e d o r d e r – Page 182 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 r e s t o r e s o r d e r a n d h e l p u s d r iv e t h is r e h a b i li t a t i o n a n d t h e r e n e w a l o f t h e S A B C . I t is v e r y i m p o r ta n t b e c a u s e th e i n d e p e n d e n c e o f t h e S A B C n e e d s t o b e p r o t e c t e d a n d i f y o u h a v e w r o n g p e o p le i n w r o n g jo b s y o u n o t g o i n g to b e a b l e t o d o th a t . B u t s e c o n d ly p a r t o f t h e c o n tr a c ts t h a t w e r e – a r e i n q u e s t i o n d id n o t m a k e c o m m e r c i a l s e n s e f o r t h e S A B C . N o w i f a s a n e x e c u t iv e y o u s i g n a c o n tr a c t t h a t is n o t b e n e fi t ti n g y o u r e n t i ty, b e n e fi t ti n g s o m e b o d y e ls e e ls e w h e r e i t r a is e s a l o t o f q u e s ti o n s . S o w e h a d to b r in g p e o p l e w h o h a v e g o t c o m m e r c i a l a n d b u s in e s s a c u m e n t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e y h e lp t h e S A B C g e t b a c k o n tr a c k . 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o h o w d o y o u b a la n c e t h e p u b li c m a n d a t e t h a t t h e S A B C h a s a n d t h e c o m m e r c i a l i n te r e s ts b e c a u s e i t a l s o o p e r a t e s w i t h i n th a t s p a c e a s a c o m m e r c ia l e n t i ty ? So how do you b a l a n c e t h e tw o b e c a u s e g o v e r n m e n t is g o i n g to s a y, l o o k w e w a n t y o u t o e d u c a t e p e o p le a n d y o u s a y, I w a n t t o e d u c a t e p e o p le b u t I w a n t to m a k e m o n e y, s o h o w d o y o u d r a w t h e li n e – w h e r e d o y o u d r a w t h e l in e w h e n y o u h a v e t o d is c h a r g e y o u r m a n d a t e a s a b o a r d ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H IN I: T h e r e is a n e d i t o r i a l p o li c y c u r r e n t ly i t i s b e i n g r e v i e w e d t h a t r e a ll y g u i d e s t h e d e c is io n s a t t h e S A B C a n d w h e n i t c o m e s t o n e w s a n d e d it o r i a l d e c i s i o n s th a t h a s 20 g o t – i t i s s o m e h o w p r o t e c te d fr o m t h e c o m m e r c i a l in t e r e s t . I t is i m p o r t a n t f o r t h e S A B C t o m a k e m o n e y l ik e I in d ic a t e d t h a t 8 5 % o f o u r r e v e n u e c o m e s fr o m c o m m e r c i a l a c t iv it i e s b u t t h a t d o e s n o t m e a n th a t w e t h e n c o m p r o m is e o u r i n d e p e n d e n c e b e c a u s e w e a r e g e tt i n g t h e s u p p o r t fr o m p r i v a t e o r f r o m c o m m e r c i a l a c ti v i ti e s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . C h a ir if y o u … Page 183 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Oh sorry – oh I beg your pardon. CHAIRPERSON: paragraph 16. C a n I g o b a c k to w h a t w e w e r e ta lk in g a b o u t u n d e r T h e d e c r e a s e i n t h e l o s s e s m a d e b y th e S A B C o r t h e i m p r o v e m e n t in t h e l o s s e s t h a t w e r e m a d e b y t h e S A B C a s t e s t if i e d t o b y y o u a fe w m i n u t e s a g o in r e l a ti o n t o p a r a g r a p h 1 6 w e r e t h o s e i m p r o v e m e n t s i n t h e l o s s e s a s a r e s u l t o f t h e i m p le m e n t a ti o n o f th e t u r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y t h a t y o u h a v e t a lk e d a b o u t ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I : 10 Thank you Chairperson c e r t a i n l y i t is t h e o u t c o m e o r th e r e s u l t o f t h e t u r n a r o u n d s tr a te g y. B e c a u s e b e fo r e th e t u r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y w a s i n p l a c e i t w a s d o w n h il l f o r the SABC. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o t h e s tr a t e g y – t u r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y t h a t y o u p u t in p la c e is a l r e a d y h a s b e e n – a n d h a s b e e n s h o w in g p o s i ti v e results? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H IN I: C e r t a in ly. We have s a v e d a l m o s t R 1 b i ll io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H IN I: 20 As a result of that t u r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I : We have been able to a tt r a c t t o p t a l e n t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I : Page 184 of 216 To c o m e w o r k f o r t h e 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 SABC. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I : B e c a u s e t h e y fe e l t h a t S A B C [ i n d is t in c t ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: I m e a n if y o u l o o k a t t h e c a l i b r e o f th e e x e c u t iv e s t h a t w e h a v e b e e n a b l e to a t tr a c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . [ M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I : 10 turnaround strategy is working. It is t e s t i m o n y th a t t h e B u t t h e f a c t th a t w e d e liv e r e d th e e l e c ti o n in t h is d i r e f i n a n c i a l s i t u a t io n t h a t w a s r a t e d t h e b e s t c o v e r a g e e v e r s h o u l d g iv e S o u t h A fr i c a n s c o n fi d e n c e t h a t w e a r e t u r n i n g a r o u n d the SABC. CHAIRPERSON: Hm, Hm thank you. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A n d t h e n m a y b e C h a ir I m i g h t ju s t f in is h u p w i t h t h e l e t t e r s b e fo r e I fo r g e t? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s d o t h a t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y s o c a n y o u ju s t g o b a c k . W e w e r e s t il l d e a li n g w it h th e – a n d I h a d a s k e d y o u a n d y o u e x p la i n e d w h a t y o u 20 t h i n k Mr N a i d o o m e a n t i n h is l e t t e r a b o u t t h e fa il u r e t o u n d e r s t a n d t h e d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n c o r p o r a t e i n d e p e n d e n c e a n d a c c o u n t a b i li ty. N o w h e a ls o i d e n ti f i e s t h e fa c t t h a t t h e S A B C d o e s – a g i t d o e s n e e d f u n d i n g , d o e s h e n o t? H e d o e s t h a t s o r r y – I w i ll t e l l y o u n o w. Ye s i n t h e t h ir d paragraph. H e a l s o a ll u d e s t o th e f a c t t h a t t h e S A B C a l s o n e e d e d funds. He says: Page 185 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 “ T h e S A B C h a s a p r e s s in g is s u e o f l a c k o f f u n d s w h ic h r e q u ir e s i m m e d i a t e a tt e n ti o n . ” Do you see that? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Ye s h e d id . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : H e d id ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o y o u w o u l d fi n d th a t t h e n t h a t a l s o t a lk s t o w h a t M r M a t h a th a Ts e d u h a d r e f e r r e d t o in h i s le t t e r. Then let us ju s t d e a l w i th t h e le t t e r o f M r J o h n M a t ti s o n o k a y. 10 CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y b e fo r e y o u g o t o t h a t o n e . O n t h is o n e fr o m Mr Kr is h N a i d o o I g e t t h e i m p r e s s i o n a n d y o u m u s t te ll m e i f I a m w r o n g t h a t h e h a d a d i ff e r e n c e o f o p i n io n w i t h th e m a j o r i t y o f t h e b o a r d o n c e r t a i n i s s u e s a n d h e ta lk s a b o u t – h e s a y s : “ T h e d i ffe r e n c e b e t w e e n c o r p o r a t e in d e p e n d e n c e , a c c o u n t a b i li ty a n d p o li t ic a l i n t e r fe r e n c e ” H e s e e m s t o h a v e t a k e n a c e r t a i n v i e w a n d m a y b e t h e m a j o r i ty o f t h e b o a r d t o o k a d i ff e r e n t v i e w. A r e y o u a b l e t o s p e a k o n t h is i n t e r m s o f p r a c ti c a l e x a m p l e s a n d a r e t h e y c o n n e c te d i n a n y w a y f o r e x a m p l e w i t h t h e is s u e o f c o s t c u tt i n g m e a s u r e s o r n o t r e a ll y ? 20 M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Th a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n . I m u s t i n d ic a t e t h a t a l l t h e s e r e s o n a ti o n s c a m e i m m e d i a te ly a f t e r th e m e e ti n g we had with r e tr e n c h m e n t e l e m e n t. th e M i n i s te r where we disagreed on the S o t h e m a j o r i ty o f th e b o a r d w a s o f t h e v ie w that the strategy has been approved by the board, has been shared and p r e s e n t e d i n P a r l ia m e n t a n d t h e M i n i s t e r a t t h a t t i m e a c t u a l ly g a v e Page 186 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 in p u t a n d h e r i n p u t w a s in c o r p o r a te d . S o a l l w e n e e d e d t o d o n o w w a s t o h o l d t h e e x e c u ti v e s y o u k n o w to i m p le m e n t th e t u r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y. S o s o m e p e o p l e fe l t t h a t w e w e r e s u p p o s e d t o s t o p t h e r e tr e n c h m e n t w i t h o u t n e c e s s a r i ly h a v i n g a n y t h in g ta n g i b l e s o t h a t is w h e r e t h e d i ff e r e n c e o f o p i n i o n is . B u t a l s o t h e is s u e a r o u n d – i f y o u l o o k a t th e M a t o j a n e j u d g m e n t i t c l e a r ly o u tl i n e s w h a t is t h e r o le o f th e b o a r d a n d w h a t is t h e r o l e o f M i n is t e r a n d p e o p le s e e m t o s tr u g g l e to g e t t o te r ms a n d t o a c c e p t t h a t S A B C i s i n d e p e n d e n t a n d t h e b o a r d o f th e S A B C i s in c h a r g e o f t h e a ffa ir s o f t h e S A B C n o t th e M i n is t e r. T h e M in is t e r y e s 10 t h r o u g h a s h a r e h o ld e r c o m p a c t w il l h o l d u s a c c o u n t a b l e o n c e r t a in t h i n g s , a r e w e m e e ti n g o u r t a r g e t s a n d s o f o r th ? S h e h a d g o t e n o u g h in t h e s h a r e h o ld e r c o m p a c t to h o ld u s a c c o u n t a b l e in te r m s o f t h e p e r f o r m a n c e o f th e b o a r d a n d t h e e n ti ty b u t in t e r m s o f t h e d e c is io n s that must be left with the board. C H A I R P E R S O N : I s t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t M r N a i d o o fe l t th a t th e r e w a s n o p o li t ic a l i n t e r fe r e n c e th a t – b e c a u s e h e r e fe r s t o p o li t ic a l i n t e r fe r e n c e h e s e e m s t o s a y s o m e m e m b e r s o f th e b o a r d d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d p o li t ic a l in t e r f e r e n c e , a c c o u n ta b i li t y a n d in d e p e n d e n c e – c o r p o r a t e in d e p e n d e n c e . I a m tr y i n g t o u n d e r s ta n d w h a t th e d i ffi c u l ty w a s . W a s 20 h e t h i n k i n g t h a t t h e b o a r d w a s a l lo w i n g t h e M in is t e r to i n t e r f e r e i m p r o p e r ly ? Wa s h e t h in k i n g – w a s h is v i e w t h a t t h e b o a r d m a y b e w a s t h i n k i n g th e M i n is t e r is i n t e r fe r i n g i m p r o p e r ly w h e n a c t u a ll y s h e w a s n o t i n t e r f e r i n g i m p r o p e r ly ? Ar e y o u a b l e t o r e c a l l e x a c tl y w h e r e th e d i ff e r e n c e s w e r e b e t w e e n h i m a n d t h e b o a r d ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: C h a ir p e r s o n it – b e y o n d Page 187 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 w h a t is o n t h e l e tt e r i t g e ts h a r d e r f o r m e to s p e c u la t e w h a t h e w a s thinking. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I : B u t i f I w a s to l o o k a t w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g a t th e ti m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I : T h e b o a r d h a d ta k e n a r e s o l u ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H IN I: A n d – w h ic h w a s s u p p o r t e d b y t h e m a j o r i ty o f th e b o a r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: A n d a m i n o r it y w i t h i n th e board. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: F e l t t h a t w e s h o u l d j u s t f a ll o v e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H IN I: 20 A n d d o w h a te v e r th a t was required of us. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: S o t h a t is t h e o n ly w a y w h e r e I c o u ld b a s i c a ll y f r a m e C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: M y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f th e Page 188 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 le t t e r b u t a s t o w h a t w a s g o i n g o n i n h is m i n d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I : I w o u ld n o t b e a b l e t o s p e c u l a te o n t h a t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d m a y b e b e c a u s e a f t e r h e r e s ig n e d t h e r e w a s n o in t e r a c ti o n ? MR BONGUMUSA EMMANUEL M A K H AT H I N I: There was no in t e r a c ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H ATH I N I: B u t a g a i n w h e n y o u l o o k a t – a t h i s l e tt e r h e t a l k s a b o u t a n i n te r i m s tr u c t u r e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: W h ic h m e a n t th a t th e r e w a s a v i e w t h a t m a y b e t h e b o a r d th a t i s i n p l a c e w a s m e a n t to v a c a t e o ffic e a n d th e n a n i n te r i m s tr u c tu r e s h o u l d c o m e i n b e c a u s e t h a t is w h a t is in h is l e t t e r. W h e n h e s a y s h e d o e s n o t w a n t t o – to d e la y t h e in s t a l l a t i o n o f a n i n te r i m s tr u c t u r e t h a t c a n d e a l w i t h t h e a ffa ir s . N o w w h e n t h e f o u r m e m b e r s r e s ig n e d i t p u t a m a m m o t h p r e s s u r e o n t h e f o u r that remained because if we had resigned that was going to make way 20 f o r t h e i n te r i m b o a r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: B u t w e f e lt t h a t w e h a d done nothing wrong. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H IN I: Page 189 of 216 W e h a d d e liv e r e d o n 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 what is expected of us. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: A n d w e w e r e p r e p a r e d t o s t a n d a n d fi g h t a n d d e fe n d t h e i n d e p e n d e n c e o f t h e S A B C . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H IN I: Which then made it i m p o s s i b le t o b r in g a n i n t e r i m b o a r d b e c a u s e y o u c a n n o t b r i n g a n in t e r i m b o a r d w i th o u t d o i n g a n e n q u ir y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: W h ic h is w h a t w a s d o n e b y th e A d d o C o m m i t t e e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s . B u t y o u s e e a ll o f th e s e t h i n g s b e c o m e q u i te i m p o r ta n t f o r t h is c o m m i s s i o n b e c a u s e c e r ta in ly i n r e g a r d to o t h e r S O E ’s o r g o v e r n m e n t in s t i tu t io n s t h e r e c e r ta i n ly h a s b e e n c o m p la i n t s t h a t s o m e ti m e s c e r t a i n s tr u c t u r e s w e r e w e a k e n e d t o s u c h a n e x te n t w e r e w e a k e n e d in a w a y th a t s o u g h t t o p u s h t h e m o u t s o t h a t o th e r p e o p l e w o u ld b e p u t i n w h o w o u l d th e n b e h a v e i n a d i ff e r e n t w a y. S o i t b e c o m e s v e r y i m p o r t a n t t o u n d e r s ta n d a ll o f t h o s e t h i n g s b e c a u s e a ls o some people might feel hey if I am not wanted I must just leave. But by 20 d o i n g t h a t y o u m i g h t b e a ll o w i n g s o m e b o d y w h o m i g h t h a v e i m p r o p e r m o t iv e s a n d o b je c tiv e s to th e n b r in g i n s o m e b o d y w h o is g o i n g t o p u t u p n o r e s is t a n c e w h e n t h e y s h o u l d p u t u p r e s is ta n c e . S o i t b e c o m e s v e r y i m p o r ta n t t o u n d e r s t a n d a l l o f t h o s e th in g s a n d s o m e t i m e s y o u – y o u t h i n k th a t c o r p o r a t e g o v e r n a n c e r e q u i r e s th a t w h e n p e o p l e b e l i e v e t h e y h a v e d o n e n o th i n g w r o n g t h e y s h o u l d s ta n d th e i r g r o u n d a n d s a y Page 190 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 w e s e e t h a t w e a r e b e i n g p u s h e d h e r e a n d p e o p l e t h i n k w e a r e g o in g to r e s ig n s o t h a t o t h e r p e o p le c a n b e p u t i n i f w e th in k w e h a v e d o n e n o t h i n g w r o n g w e a r e n o t g o in g a n y w h e r e . A n d i f s o m e b o d y h a s p o w e r t o f ir e u s le t t h e m f ir e u s . O k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M a y b e ju s t o n e o th e r a s p e c t li n k e d t o w h a t th e C h a ir h a s a s k e d a b o u t w h a t M r N a i d o o w a s s a y in g . Wa s t h e r e in fa c t a d e s p o n d – a b r e a k d o w n i n t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n th e b o a r d a n d t h e M i n is t e r ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I : 10 It was a very strange p o i n t f o r – t o p u t i n t h e l e tt e r b e c a u s e th e M i n is te r h a d ju s t c o m e i n . S h e w a s ju s t – s h e h a d j u s t b e e n a p p o in t e d . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: A n d t h i s w a s t h e fir s t – v e r y fir s t m e e t i n g w i th t h e b o a r d . S o i t is ju s t th a t t h e r e w a s t h is c o n te n ti o u s i s s u e a r o u n d S e c t io n 1 8 9 b u t I a m n o t o f th e v ie w t h a t t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p w a s b r o k e n b u t i t w a s t h e v e r y f ir s t m e e ti n g t h a t w e h a d w i t h h e r. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. A lr i g h t th a n k y o u . A n d th e n l e t u s t h e n g o t o M r M a t h a t h a Ts e d u ’s l e t t e r. E a c h o n e fo ll o w s Mr N a i d o o y e s 20 it is M r M a t h a t h a Ts e d u is a t p a g e 3 . I t h i n k i t i s i m p o r t a n t li n k e d to t h e m a t t e r s t h a t th e C h a ir h a d p u t t o y o u t h a t y o u h a v e s o m e b o d y w h o w a s p a r t o f th e in t e r i m b o a r d a n d n o w h e a ls o b e c a m e p a r t o f t h e p e r m a n e n t b o a r d b u t w h a t h e s a y s th e r e a b o u t r o o ti n g o u t c o r r u p t p r a c ti c e s a n d r e v e r s i n g fr a u d u l e n t a c t iv i ti e s a n d h e t h e n c o m m e n d s b o t h t h e i n t e r i m a n d th e p e r m a n e n t b o a r d . Ar e th e s e m a t te r s t h a t M r Page 191 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 M a t h a t h a Ts e d u s p e a k s t o h e r e ? Are these some of the matters that w h e n y o u a r e a s k i n g f o r a b a il o u t fr o m N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y, t h e M i n is t e r o f Fi n a n c e w o u l d c o n s i d e r ? T h a t is w h a t y o u h a v e d o n e a b o u t th e c o r p o r a t io n w h e t h e r b e c a u s e y o u a r e t h e r e n o w c o r r u p ti o n h a s s i m p ly e s c a l a t e d o r y o u h a v e a c t u a ll y tr i e d to r o o t o u t c o r r u p ti o n . A r e t h e s e s o m e o f t h e c o n s i d e r a t io n s ? M R B O N G U M U SA E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H IN I: correct. O n e o f t h e c o n d i t io n s is h o w f a r h a v e y o u g o n e i n i m p l e m e n ti n g 10 Protector? C h a i r p e r s o n t h a t is t h e c o r r e c tiv e measures coming out of the P u b li c A n d w e h a v e m e t t h a t c o n d i t io n . I m e a n y o u w o u l d h a v e s e e n t h a t w e a r e t a c k li n g t h e i r r e g u l a r a p p o i n t m e n ts . p e o p l e a c c o u n ta b l e . We are hold There has been people that have been put t h r o u g h a n i n d e p e n d e n t d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e s s e s . a n d w e a r e a c tu a l ly d o i n g v e r y w e l l . We are hard at work Even the government both M i n is t e r s a g r e e s t h a t i n t h a t a r e a w e h a v e d o n e e x c e p t io n a l ly w e ll . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n w e h a v e th e n t h e l a s t l e t t e r b e c a u s e w e d o n o t h a v e t h e o n e o f M s K w e y a m a . Th e n w e h a v e a t p a g e 2 t h a t o n e o f M r J o h n M a t ti s o n . O n e o f th e t h i n g s t h a t h e r a is e s is t h a t h e d o e s n o t a g r e e w i t h t h e c u r r e n t b o a r d ’s d ir e c ti o n 20 a n d in p a r ti c u l a r i t s fa il u r e to a p p r e c ia t e th e o v e r s i g h t r o le o f P a r li a m e n t and i ts committees, the d is s a t is f a c ti o n of o v e r s ig h t c o m m i t t e e s w a s a p p a r e n t i n t h r e e s u c c e s s iv e h e a r in g s a n d r e a c h e d a c r o s s a ll p o l i ti c a l p a r t ie s . S o w h a t h e w a s h e ta lk in g a b o u t h e r e ? Wa s h e s ti ll r e f e r r i n g t o th e is s u e o f r e tr e n c h m e n t s o r w e r e t h e r e o t h e r a r e a s t h a t h e fe l t t h a t t h e b o a r d ’s d ir e c t io n w a s n o t c o n s is t e n t w i t h Page 192 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 w h a t h e b e li e v e d i n ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Th a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n . The truth of the matter is if you look at how our engagement with the P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e a n d [i n d is t in c t ] th e o n l y is s u e t h a t t h e y w e r e a l w a y s p ic k in g o n w a s r e t r e n c h m e n t . W h y a r e y o u r e tr e n c h in g ? T h e r e h a s n e v e r b e e n a s u b s t a n t ia l i n p u t o r a lt e r n a t iv e t h a t w a s e v e r g iv e n o th e r th a n t h e m e x p r e s s in g c o n c e r n a b o u t r e tr e n c h m e n ts w h il e S o u t h A fr ic a h a s g o t h ig h l e v e ls o f u n e m p l o y m e n t. S o h i m t a lk i n g a b o u t u s h a v i n g c h a ll e n g e s i t w a s s p e c i fi c a ll y a b o u t th a t a n d h e w a s o f th e v i e w 10 r a th e r a ls o th a t w e s h o u l d s u s p e n d r e tr e n c h m e n t . A n d t h e p o s i ti o n o f t h e b o a r d w a s u n t il w e a r e g iv e n m o n e y w e a r e p r e p a r e d to r e v i e w t h e p a c e a n d t h e q u a n t u m o f r e tr e n c h m e n t . B u t t o ju s t s a y y o u c a n n o t r e tr e n c h a n d n o m o n e y g i v e n , n o a l t e r n a t i v e g iv e n i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n ir r e s p o n s ib l e f o r t h e b o a r d to a c c e p t th a t . CHAIRPERSON: I m a y h a v e m i s u n d e r s to o d y o u b u t I th i n k y o u m u s t h a v e i n t e n d e d t o s a y t h e b o a r d ’s p o s i ti o n w a s a s lo n g a s w e d o n o t h a v e m o n e y u n fo r tu n a t e ly t h is is o n e o f t h e c o s t c u t ti n g m e a s u r e s t h a t w e w i ll h a v e to d o n a m e ly r e t r e n c h m e n t b u t if w e a r e g i v e n m o n e y t h e n w e c a n l o o k a t t h e s i t u a t io n . A m I r i g h t? 20 M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Th a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n . C o s t c u t ti n g – t h e p o s i ti o n o f th e b o a r d w a s e x a c tl y b u t w a s t h a t w e w e r e g o i n g t o r e v i e w t h e p a c e a n d th e q u a n tu m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Yo u m a y h a v e m a y b e in y o u r i n i t ia l p r o je c ti o n s p u t a b o u t le t u s s a y 9 0 0 e m p l o y e e s . Page 193 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: B u t w h e n t h e r e i s m o n e y g iv e n a n d y o u c a n d r i v e e ffi c i e n c y in o t h e r a r e a s y o u c a n t h e n m a y b e r e d u c e t h a t t o l ik e m a y b e 7 0 0 . B u t t o j u s t ta k e i t o ff t h e t a b l e c o m p le t e l y w h e n i t is a b o u t 4 5 % o f y o u r e x p e n d i t u r e a n d y o u a r e n o t a b l e t o i d e n t i fy a n o th e r le v e r w h e r e y o u g o i n g t o r e d u c e c o s ts . B e c a u s e o u r m a i n c o s t d r iv e r s i s s t a ff , p a y r o ll . I t is s i g n a l d is tr i b u ti o n o r c o n n e c t iv i ty c o s t. I t i s a ls o s p o r t r i g h ts w h ic h f a ll s u n d e r c o n t e n t . S o y o u c a n n e v e r a r o u n d t h e fi n a n c e s o f t h e S A B C w i t h o u t t a c k l in g 10 those three areas. CHAIRPERSON: S o – s o e v e r y m o n t h a s y o u p a i d s a la r i e s th e r e w i ll b e t h is 4 5 % t h a t g o e s t o s a l a r ie s a n d y o u r tu r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y c o n te m p l a t e d t h a t t h e n u m b e r s o f s t a ff h a d t o b e r e d u c e d if t h e r e w a s – t h e y h a d to b e r e d u c e d I t h i n k t h a t is w h a t y o u s a y a n d b y h o w m u c h t h e y w o u l d h a v e t o b e r e d u c e d c o u l d b e a ff e c te d b y w h e th e r o r n o t y o u w e r e g e t t in g – y o u a r e g o i n g t o g e t fu n d i n g a n d h o w m u c h f u n d i n g y o u w e r e g o i n g to g e t . B u t th e r e w a s n o d o u b t in th e m in d s o f t h e b o a r d t h a t r e tr e n c h m e n ts h a d t o h a p p e n . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H IN I: 20 I may not have the n u m b e r s d e t a i ls h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: B u t t h e r e is a n u m b e r o f t h i n g s t h a t n e e d e d t o b e d o n e a r o u n d o u r s t a ff m ix . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Page 194 of 216 I n te r m s o f f o r e x a m p l e 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 fr e e l a n c e s v e r s u s p e r m a n e n t s t a ff b u t a ls o l o o k i n g a t w h e r e w e g o i n g as the SABC? W h a t s k il ls d o w e n e e d ? Yo u k n o w b u t t h e r e w e r e a n u m b e r o f ir r e g u l a r a p p o in t m e n ts a n d a lo t o f t h i n g s t h a t n e e d e d t o b e lo o k e d a t a n d r e v i e w e d . E v e n o u r o p e r a ti o n a l m o d e l a s th e S A B C n e e d e d to b e r e l o o k e d b e c a u s e w e o p e r a ti n g in a d i g it a l s p a c e w h e r e t h i n g s h a v e c h a n g e d a n d c o m p e ti t io n a ls o h a s i n te n s i fi e d . A n d li k e I in d i c a t e d th a t i f y o u lo o k h o w p e o p l e c o n s u m e c o n te n t i t h a s c h a n g e d . S o d o w e s ti ll n e e d e v e r y t h i n g t h a t w e h a v e n o w in it s c u r r e n t f o r m o r shape? 10 A ll t h o s e t h i n g s w e r e b e i n g r e v i e w e d a n d i t is w h a t t h e e x e c u tiv e te a m w a s l o o k in g a t . B u t c e r ta in ly w i th o u t r e d u c i n g y o u r c o s t you can never turn around SABC because you are not going to be able t o g r o w y o u r r e v e n u e i n th is c o m p e t it iv e s p a c e w i t h o u t t a c k li n g y o u r c o s t e l e m e n ts . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A n d th e n h e s a y s i n t h e la s t s e n t e n c e w h ic h y o u h a v e a lr e a d y r e a d i n to th e r e c o r d th a t h i s e n d e a v o u r s t o p e r s u a d e t h e b o a r d to c h a n g e i ts c o u r s e in c l u d i n g t h e s u s p e n s i o n o f r e t r e n c h m e n ts h a v e n o t b e e n a c c e p te d . S o I w o u ld t a k e it th a t y o u h a v e o n e p e r s o n w h o is n o t h a p p y w it h th e s tr a t e g y o r w i t h 20 t h e w a y y o u g o i n g b u t th e m a j o r it y o f t h e b o a r d w o u l d h a v e a p p r o v e d i t a n d t h e n h e d e c i d e d t h a t l o o k i f it c a n n o t b e d o n e a s h e is s u g g e s t in g t h e n h e w o u ld r a t h e r l e a v e . W a s t h a t t h e i m p r e s s i o n y o u g o t ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H IN I: C e r t a i n l y. I mean a b o a r d o f a b o u t f i ft e e n p e o p l e i f y o u h a v e f o u r t e e n p e o p l e a g r e e i n g a n d o n e p e r s o n d i s a g r e e i n g t h e m a j o r i t y o f th e b o a r d a g r e e s w i t h t h e Page 195 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 s tr a t e g y a n d w e m o v e fo r w a r d . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : H m y e s t h a n k y o u . T h e n b e f o r e w e g o to t h e s o m e p a r a g r a p h s o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t I w o u l d l ik e u s t o j u s t fi n is h w i t h a ll t h e m e d i a d o c u m e n ts w h ic h w e h a v e p l a c e d b e fo r e t h e C h a ir. S h a l l w e n o w g o t to E x h ib i t C C 2 3 I b e g y o u r p a r d o n I h a v e n o t d e a l t w i t h Ex h i b i t C C 2 3 A ? M a y I r e fe r y o u – d o y o u h a v e th a t ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: E x h i b it 2 3 ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 23A. M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: I h a v e g o t i t . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Yo u h a v e i t o k a y t h a n k y o u . T h e n t h e f ir s t i t e m o n t h e i n d e x w h ic h g o e s t o p a g e 2 o f t h a t d o c u m e n t d e a l s w i t h s p o r t s b r o a d c a s t in g r i g h t s r o l e s ti ll u n r e s o l v e d . W e a r e n o t g o i n g to r e a d t h e s e l e t t e r s b u t y o u c a n j u s t – b e c a u s e I k n o w th a t th e C E O i s g o in g t o t a lk t o t h e m . H e h a s d e a l t w i t h it i n h is s u p p l e m e n t a r y s t a t e m e n t . B u t j u s t r o u g h ly y o u h a v e a lr e a d y i n d ic a te d t o t h e C h a ir t h a t s p o r t r ig h ts a r e e x p e n s iv e b u t th is r o le t h a t t h e y r e fe r r i n g t o h e r e w h a t a r e they talking about? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: S o … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : J u s t h i g h l e v e l o v e r v ie w o f w h a t t h is w a s 20 a l l a b o u t . Mr M x a l w e is g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h in d e t a i l . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H IN I: le v e l th a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n . Ja. Maybe just high One of the key things there were a n u m b e r o f c o n tr a c ts t h a t S A B C h a d e n t e r e d i n to t h a t w e r e n o t fi n a n c i a l ly o r c o m m e r c i a lly m a k i n g s e n s e f o r t h e S A B C . S p o r t s r ig h ts f o r a n e x a m p l e s p o r ts r i g h ts p r ic e s h a d b e c o m e s o h ig h a n d o u r a b il it y Page 196 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 t o c o m m e r c i a l is e t h o s e r i g h t s w a s n o t i n l i n e w i th w h a t w e w e r e p a y in g f o r t h e s e r ig h ts . S o w e a s a b o a r d t o o k a p o s i t io n a s t h e m a jo r i ty o f t h e b o a r d l e t m e e m p h a s i s e t h a t th a t w i ll n o l o n g e r s i g n a n y c o n t r a c t t h a t d o e s n o t m a k e c o m m e r c ia l s e n s e f o r t h e S A B C r e g a r d l e s s o f w h a t t h a t c o n t r a c t is a b o u t a n d s p o r t s f e l l i n t o t h a t b a s k e t a n d w e - w e h a v e had a number of engagements and - and we have agreed now for an example SuperSport and PSL on the rights. W h e r e t h e y m a n a g e t o u n d e r s ta n d o u r p o s it io n a n d w e h a d t o u n d e r s t a n d a l s o t h e ir p o s i ti o n a n d g o to a f o r m o f a n a g r e e m e n t th a t 10 w i ll r e s u l t t o S A B C m a k i n g s o m e m o n e y f r o m i t b e c a u s e i f y o u l o o k a t t h e s p o r ts r i g h ts a l o n e i n th e l a s t fi v e y e a r s S A B C h a s l o s t a b o u t R 2 . 3 b i ll io n a s a r e s u lt o f s p o r t s r i g h t s . I s p o k e t o y o u a b o u t t h e fi n a n c i a ls fo r th e l a s t fi n a n c i a l y e a r o f a b o u t 4 8 3 . A b o u t 4 1 0 m i ll io n o f t h a t 4 8 3 l o s s is d u e to s p o r ts . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d th e n I w o u l d l ik e t o j u s t h ig h l i g h t … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: 20 I s t h a t b e c a u s e - I m e a n y o u r e f e r r e d e a r li e r o n to s o m e c o n tr a c ts in w h i c h - c o n c l u d e d b y S A B C a n d o th e r e n ti ti e s t h a t did not make commercial sense. D i d y o u - i s th is o n e , o n e o f t h e m w h e r e t h e r e is s u c h a l o s s t h a t h a p p e n e d o v e r t h a t p e r i o d ? Is it b e c a u s e i t d i d n o t - th e a g r e e m e n t s t h a t S A B C h a d g o t in t o d i d n o t m a k e c o m m e r c ia l s e n s e in y o u r v ie w ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Page 197 of 216 C e r t a i n l y C h a ir p e r s o n . 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 S o m e o f t h e s e a r e p a r t o f th o s e c o n t r a c t s th a t n e e d e d to b e r e v i e w e d b e c a u s e if y o u p a y i n g l e t u s s a y R 2 0 m ill i o n fo r s o m e th in g a n d y o u o n ly m a k i n g R 5 mi ll i o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: I t w il l b e ir r e s p o n s i b l e f o r a n y B o a r d D ir e c t o r … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: To g o i n k n o w i n g th a t t h e y a r e g o in g to h a v e s u c h a s ig n if ic a n t l o s s … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: B u t a ls o to e x p e c t t h e S A B C t o c a r r y t h i s a l o n e w i t h o u t a f in a n c i a l i n j e c t io n . I t a ls o b e c o m e s a - unsustainable for us. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d t h e n i f I m a y j u s t t a k e y o u to p a g e 6 o f th a t b u n d le w h ic h i s E X H I B I T C C 2 3 A . S o t h i s is s o m e o f t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e th a t h a p p e n e d o v e r th e w e e k e n d . I t t a lk s t o t h e b a i l o u t . A m I r i g h t? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n , y e s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d th e n it s a y s : 20 “ S A B C t o p b r a s s t h r e a te n e d t o q u i t o v e r b o a r d m e d d l in g . ” C o u ld y o u j u s t e x p l a i n t o t h e C h a ir w h o i s t h e t o p b r a s s a n d w h y w a s t h e r e a t h r e a t t o q u i t b e c a u s e y o u r b o a r d i s m e d d li n g in t o t h e a ffa ir s o f t h e e x e c u t iv e s ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Page 198 of 216 Th e t o p b r a s s in t h is 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 c a s e r e fe r s to t h e G r o u p C E O , C F O a n d t h e C O O a n d - a n d th e c h a l le n g e t h e r e - t h e r e h a s b e e n s o m e is s u e s t h a t t h e e x e c u t iv e r a is e d w i t h t h e b o a r d in te r m s o f m in o r it y o f t h e b o a r d d o in g t h i n g s t h a t m a k e s it i m p o s s ib le f o r th e e x e c u tiv e te a m t o d o t h e ir w o r k w h ic h w h e n y o u lo o k a t t h e i n c i d e n ts g iv e n i t - i t t a lk s t o s o m e l e v e l o f i n t e r f e r e n c e s e c o n d g u e s s i n g th e e x e c u ti v e s a n d c r e a t i n g a n e n v ir o n m e n t t h a t i s n o t c o n d u c iv e f o r th e e x e c u ti v e s to d o t h e ir w o r k b u t a s a b o a r d w e a r e d e a li n g w it h th a t m a t te r. I t h a s b e e n b r o u g h t t o t h e a t t e n t io n o f t h e b o a r d a n d a s a 10 b o a r d w e a r e t a c k l in g th a t i s s u e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . W h e n y o u s a y m in o r i ty m e m b e r s o f t h e b o a r d h o w m a n y m e m b e r s a r e w e t a lk i n g a b o u t ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: T h e b o a r d is m a d e o f 1 2 n o n - e x e c s a n d t h e n t h r e e E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r s . S o w h e n th e t h r e e e x e c u tiv e s a r e c o m p l a in in g a b o u t t h e b o a r d t h e y w i ll b e r e f e r r in g t o t h e n o n - e x e c w h ic h i s t h e 1 2 . S o o u t o f th e 1 2 , y o u w i ll h a v e a m in o r i ty. A m i n o r i ty f o r m e w ill b e a n y n u m b e r l e s s t h a n t h r e e w h e n o r t h r e e g o in g d o w n i f y o u h a v e a t o ta l o f 1 2 p e o p l e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Huh-uh, yes. 20 M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: S o w h ic h m e a n s w h e r e w e a r e th e b o a r d i s f u l ly f u n c ti o n a l a n d s ti ll a b le t o d o i ts w o r k b u t o f course because boards are made up of people from d i ff e r e n t b a c k g r o u n d s a n d w h o a p p r o a c h th in g s d i ff e r e n tly a n d f o r e v e r y n e w t e a m o r g r o u p o f p e o p l e w h e n t h e y m e e t f o r th e fir s t t i m e th e r e w i ll b e t e e t h i n g is s u e s . Page 199 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 W h a t I n o r m a ll y s a y is t h a t a s l o n g a s e v e r y b o d y ’s g u i d e d b y t h e p r e s c r ip t s o f t h e l a w o n e b u t s e c o n d ly g u i d e d b y w h a t is a t th e b e s t in t e r e s t o f t h e e n t i ty t h a t t h e y a r e p a r t o f. N o t b e i n g p u s h i n g th e i r p e r s o n a l i n te r e s t t h a t h a v e g o t n o t h i n g t o d o w i th t h e S A B C b u t a ls o a l lo w in g th e e x e c u t iv e s s p a c e t o d o t h e ir w o r k . Nobody should b lo c k the e x e c u ti v e s from d r iv i n g c o n s e q u e n c e m a n a g e m e n t f r o m i m p le m e n ti n g t h e t u r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y a n d s o fo r t h . S o t h a t is t h e s t a n c e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d th e n t h e r e y o u q u o te d . I a m n o t 10 s u r e th a t i t i s y o u w h o i s q u o t e d . Yo u w ill t e l l m e . It is paragraph - p a r a g r a p h 8 . I t s t a r ts w i t h : “ I t is t h e S A B C B o a r d ’s u n d e r s t a n d in g … ” C o u ld y o u j u s t r e a d t h a t i n t o t h e r e c o r d ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: T h is p e r ta in s b a il o u t. O u r r e s p o n s e g o e s li k e t h is : “ I t is t h e S A B C B o a r d ’s u n d e r s t a n d i n g th a t t h e P u b l ic Broadcaster has either c o m p l ie d or s u b s t a n t ia ll y c o m p l ie d w i t h e a c h p r e c o n d i ti o n a s demonstrated by 20 the s u b s t a n t iv e d o c u m e n ta t io n s u p p li e d o v e r a p e r io d o f e i g h t m o n t h s . In th e le t t e r t o t h e M in is t e r s t h e b o a r d a t t a c h e d d e ta il o n t h e S A B C ’s c o m p li a n c e w i th e a c h - w i t h e a c h c o n d i ti o n a n d h a s a s k e d f o r a n u r g e n t e n g a g e m e n t t o d is c u s s t h e m a t t e r. ” A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Page 200 of 216 to the 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: “ T h e b o a r d h a s - h a d i n fo r m e d t h e M i n i s t e r t h a t a s a r e s u l t o f th e c u r r e n t s t a tu s o f t h e S A B C f u n d i n g r e q u e s t t h e b o a r d w a s le f t w i th n o o p t io n b u t t o i m p l e m e n t t h e r e q u ir e m e n t of the C o m p a n i e s A c t t a k in g in t o a c c o u n t t h e s e v e r e i m p lic a ti o n s o n t h e D ir e c to r s li a b il i ti e s . ” ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: And the last one. M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: “ T h e b o a r d h a s a s s u r e d t h e M i n i s te r o f i ts c o m m i t m e n t t o s e r v i n g 10 t h e c o r p o r a ti o n i n t h e p u b l ic i n t e r e s t . To th is e n d t h e b o a r d w il l c o n ti n u e t o w o r k w i t h t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n ic a t i o n s a n d D i g i t a l Te c h n o lo g i e s a n d t h e N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y. ” A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d t h e n if I m a y ju s t ta k e y o u - I ju s t w h a t to h i g h l ig h t th o s e p a r t ic u l a r a r ti c l e s w h ic h a r e r e l e v a n t t o y o u r evidence. Yo u h a v e a lr e a d y s p o k e n o r t e s ti fi e d to t h e is s u e o f T V lic e n c e s a n d y o u - t h i s i s d e a lt w i th i n - a t p a g e 1 7 o f t h is - o f t h is p a c k a n d th e n th e r e is - t h e - i n f a c t h o w i t is c a p tu r e d i n th e i n d e x . I t s a y s : 20 “ S A B C w a n ts t o i n c r e a s e T V lic e n c e s b u t D A s a y s no w a y. Th e o p p o s i t io n says the P u b li c B r o a d c a s t e r n e e d s t o f in d a n o t h e r w a y t o t u r n around.” S o t h a t i s - t h a t w a s p a r t - t h is is s u e o f in c r e a s i n g T V lic e n c e s d i d i t a ls o fo r m p a r t o f y o u r t u r n a r o u n d s tr a te g y ? Page 201 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Ye s i t is o n e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t w e - w e h a d h i g h l ig h te d . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . S o t h is i s o n e o f th e t h i n g s th a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n o p p o s e d t o b y s o m e p o li ti c a l p a r ti e s o r a ll ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: That is correct C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d th e n a t p a g e - s o r r y. Th e n y o u t h is w a s l in k e d to t h e f ir s t o n e . A t p a g e 2 2 : “ M u l ti C h o ic e s i g n s d e a l w i t h S A B C f o r p r e m i e r s o c c e r l e a g u e r i g h ts . ” 10 A n d th is is w h a t y o u h a v e a lr e a d y t e s t i fi e d t o th a t y o u h a d r e a c h e d a g r e e m e n t. Is t h a t w h a t y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t th e r e ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: That is correct C h a ir p e r s o n . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s , t h a n k y o u . That is at page 22 and t h e r e i s a n a r tic le t h a t s a y s : “ S A B C l e ts d o w n th e p o o r. ” At page 23. C o u l d y o u j u s t r e a d w h a t t h i s - t h is i s a M r Vu k il e M a k i fr o m M d a n ts a n e . 20 W h a t h i s c o m p la in t w a s a b o u t t h e r e b e c a u s e h e t a l k s to t h e is s u e o f s p o r ts r ig h ts a n d h o w th e p u b l ic v i e w s it o r a t le a s t o n e m e m b e r o f t h e p u b lic w h o h a s a c t u a l ly d o c u m e n te d i t , yes. M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: O k a y. I t - i t s a y s : “ I w a s t o t a lly fl a b b e r g a s t e d a t t h e w a y S A FA , t h e P S L a n d t h e S A B C h a v e t a k e n p e o p l e f o r g r a n te d . Page 202 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 L e a g u e g a m e s s ta r t e d a f e w w e e k s b a c k y e t t h e r e w a s n o a g r e e m e n t a b o u t t h is - a b o u t - th e r e w a s n o a g r e e m e n t a b o u t w h i c h m a tc h e s w o u l d b e p u b lic a lly screened. Th e b l a c k o u t o f s o c c e r m a t c h e s w a s a t e r r i b le b l o w f o r t h e f o o t b a l l l o v e r s a n d a s h a m e fu l w a y t o tr e a t th e b e a u ti f u l g a m e . Not showing the g a m e w a s l ik e s h o w i n g t h e m i d d l e f i n g e r t o th e p u b lic a n d s o c c e r f a n s . T h i s s h o w s h o w g r e e d y t h e le a d e r s o f th e s e o r g a n is a ti o n s a r e . T h e y p r e fe r to s h o w l o ts o f m a tc h e s o n t h e p a y c h a n n e l r a t h e r 10 t h a n l e tt i n g th e ir h a v e n o ts w a tc h . R u g b y f a n s a l s o h a v e t o w a i t u n t il m a t c h e s a r e f i n is h e d o n th e p a y c h a n n e l . S A B C s h o w s t h e m b y t h e ti m e y o u a lr e a d y k n o w t h e s c o r e , Vu k il e M a k i. ” A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: M d a n ts a n e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: y o u e x p l a i n th is ? H o w w o u ld y o u e x p l a in t h is b e c a u s e p e o p l e t h e y have SABC1, two, three? 20 S o t o t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e p u b li c h o w d o Yo u h a v e m e n ti o n e d t h e s p o r t s r i g h ts t h a t S A B C d o e s n o t h a v e b u t to a l a y p e r s o n h o w w o u l d y o u t h e n e x p l a i n w h y is i t t h a t y o u a r e n o t a b l e t o s h o w t h e s e i m p o r t a n t g a m e s t o t h e p u b lic ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Th a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n . W h e n it g e ts to s p o r ts r e g u la t io n s i t s a y s t h e fr e e t o a ir p l a y e r s m u s t c a r r y s p o r t s o f n a ti o n a l i m p o r t a n c e b u t w h a t is i n t e r e s ti n g is t h a t o th e r Page 203 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 p l a y e r s lik e y o u r e M e d ia d o n o t e v e n b o t h e r t o b id f o r th e s e s p o r t s r ig h ts b e c a u s e t h e y k n o w th e p r ic i n g is n o t m a k i n g c o m m e r c ia l s e n s e a n d th e n th e S A B C b e c a u s e w e a r e a P u b l i c B r o a d c a s t e r w e a r e t h e n e x p e c te d to c a r r y th e s e g a m e s a t h u g e c o s ts f o r u s . I t w o u l d h a v e b e e n i d e a l i f w e w e r e g e t ti n g s o m e s u p p o r t f u n d i n g t h a t a c tu a l ly m a k e s i t p o s s ib le f o r u s t o c a r r y t h e s e g a m e s w h il e a t t h e s a m e t i m e b e in g fi n a n c i a l ly v i a b l e b e c a u s e w e h a v e t o p a y m il li o n s a n d m i lli o n s o f R a n d s a n d r u n a t h u g e l o s s e s w h ic h t h e v e r y s a m e S o u th A fr ic a n s a r e g o i n g t o c o m p la i n a n d s a y w h y is t h is S A B C 10 not turning around. W h y a r e t h e l o s s e s a t S A B C s o h i g h ? P a r t o f t h e t h in g s t h a t d r i v e t h o s e l o s s e s is b e c a u s e o f t h e v e r y s a m e i s s u e s a r o u n d c o n te n t t h a t i s v e r y, v e r y e x p e n s i v e f o r u s b u t a l s o th e c o n t e n t t h a t b e c o m e s h a r d e r f o r u s to c o m m e r c i a l is e . W h e n I t a lk a b o u t c o m m e r c i a l is a t i o n o f c o n te n t i t i s o k a y i f I a m g o in g to p a y 2 0 m ill i o n a n d t h e n s e ll a d v e r t is in g s p a c e t o a d v e r t is e r s a n d m a k e - l e t u s s a y - 3 0 m i ll io n . S o t h e n I h a v e a R 1 0 m i lli o n p r o f i t b u t fr o m w h e r e w e a r e w e h a v e t o i n c u r h u g e c o s ts a c q u ir in g t h e r ig h ts . W e h a v e t o i n c u r c o s t s o f p r o d u c ti o n . 20 C o s ts o f o n a ir t a l e n t a n d w h e n y o u a d d a l l o f th o s e t o g e th e r i t m a k e s S A B C i m p o s s ib le f o r t h e S A B C t o b e f in a n c ia lly v ia b le . S o S o u th A fr ic a n s n e e d t o u n d e r s t a n d t h a t i n a s m u c h a s w e a r e c o m m i t t e d t o fu l fi ll in g o u r p u b l ic m a n d a t e it c o m e s a t a c o s t a n d w e n e e d a ll p l a y e r s t o p l a y th e i r p a r t . T h e D e p a r t m e n t o f S p o r ts m u s t p l a y th e ir p a r t a n d o th e r p l a y e r s m u s t p l a y t h e ir p a r t . I t c a n n o t b e th e S A B C ’s o n l y b u r d e n to Page 204 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 carry these. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d m a y b e l a s t ly I w o u l d lik e t o t a k e y o u t o p a g e 8 w h i c h i s h e a d e d - o h s o r r y t h i s is t h e - I w i ll ta k e i t u p w i t h y o u r H e a d o f N e w s . Yo u r H e a d o f N e w s i s g o in g t o te s t i fy - t h i s d e a ls w i th H e a d o f N e w s . S o r r y. S o r r y C h a ir. I t h i n k w e h a v e d e a lt w i t h m o s t o f t h e th in g s th a t w o u l d w a r r a n t y o u r a tt e n ti o n fr o m th a t r e p o r t a n d th e n l a s t ly - la s tly C h a ir i f I m a y j u s t r e f e r th e w i t n e s s t o E X H I B I T C C 2 3 C . Yo u h a v e a lr e a d y d e a lt w i t h t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . I t d e a ls w i t h th e S A B C t h r e a t e n i n g t o q u i t o v e r b o a r d m e d d l in g . R e m e m b e r t h a t ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: ( N o a u d ib le r e p l y ) . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Yo u h a v e a lr e a d y t o u c h e d u p o n th a t a n d t h e n t h e n e x t p a g e a t p a g e - s o r r y. T h i s is n o t n u m b e r e d . I t w il l b e p a g e 4 . I a m s o r r y. I t i s n o t n u m b e r e d . I t w il l b e ( i n d is t in c t ) . M in e i s not numbered. Page 4 it says: “ S A B C B o a r d r e s p o n s e to S u n d a y Ti m e s s t o r y. ” T h a t is y o u r r e s p o n s e t h e n t o th a t - to t h a t a r tic l e . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: I t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . 20 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s a n d I t h i n k i t i s i m p o r t a n t t h is is s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u s a i d y o u w a n t e d to p l a c e o n r e c o r d . Yo u h a v e - y o u h a v e a lr e a d y m e n t io n e d h o w s k il le d y o u r e x e c u t iv e s a r e . Maybe you w a n t to ju s t r e a d i n to t h e r e c o r d w h a t y o u r r e s p o n s e t o t h a t s ta t e m e n t was. M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Page 205 of 216 T h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n . 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 A s t h e S A B C B o a r d w e d e c i d e d t o r e s p o n d to t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s s t o r y. “SABC top m e d d l in g . support brass threaten to quit over board Th e S A B C B o a r d r e a ff ir m e d i ts u t m o s t and respect fo r the SABC E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r s w h o h a v e d o n e a s te r l in g jo b t h u s fa r i n v e r y d i ffic u lt c ir c u m s t a n c e s . T h e b o a r d w ill n o t b e d r a w n i n t o d i s c u s s i n g i n t e r n a l b o a r d m a t te r s a n d a l le g e d d i ff e r e n c e s b e t w e e n b o a r d m e m b e r s . The b o a r d c o m p r is e s o f p e r s o n s c h o s e n th r o u g h a p u b lic 10 p r o c e s s w h o h a v e a r a n g e o f s k il ls a n d e x p e r i e n c e a n d w h o w ill c o n t in u e to b e c r it ic a l - c r i ti c a ll y e n g a g e d i n t h e ir d u t ie s a n d r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s . It is w e ll k n o w th a t t h e S A B C f a c e s h u g e h is t o r ic a l c h a l le n g e s w h i c h th e b o a r d is c o m m i t t e d t o t u r n i n g a r o u n d . T h i s w a s r e p o r te d in P a r l i a m e n t la s t w e e k W e d n e s d a y. T h e S A B C B o a r d d e n i e s t h a t t h e r e is a d is a g r e e m e n t a m o n g B o a r d D ir e c t o r s a b o u t m e e t i n g t h e p r e c o n d it i o n s s e t b y t h e - b y G o v e r n m e n t f o r p r o v i d in g th e 3 .2 b i ll io n b a il o u t . A t a m e e t in g o f t h e 20 S A B C B o a r d o n 3 0 A u g u s t 2 0 1 9 it w a s u n a n i m o u s ly a g r e e d t o w r it e t o t h e M in is t e r o f F i n a n c e a n d th e M i n is t e r o f C o m m u n ic a ti o n a n d D i g it a l Te c h n o lo g i e s r e s p e c t fu ll y d is a g r e e i n g w i t h t h e v ie w t h a t t h e S A B C h a d n o t m e t t h e Tr e a s u r y p r e c o n d it io n s f o r funding. I n t h e le t t e r t o t h e M i n is t e r s t h e B o a r d Page 206 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 e x p r e s s e d i ts c o n c e r n s w i t h t h e c o n t e n t o f a le t t e r fr o m t h e tw o M i n i s te r s r e c e i v e d o n 2 7 A u g u s t 2 0 1 9 a n d b e l ie v e t h a t t h e M i n is t e r s h a v e n o t b e e n fu ll y briefed on the information provided by the SABC t h u s f a r. It is t h e S A B C B o a r d ’s u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t t h e P u b l ic Br o a d c a s te r h a s e i th e r c o m p li e d o r s u b s t a n t ia ll y c o m p l ie d w i t h e a c h p r e c o n d i ti o n a s demonstrated by the s u b s t a n t iv e d o c u m e n ta t io n s u p p li e d o v e r a p e r io d o f e i g h t m o n t h s . 10 In th e le t t e r to t h e M i n is t e r s t h e b o a r d a t t a c h e d d e t a i ls o n t h e S A B C ’s c o m p l i a n c e w i t h e a c h c o n d i t io n a n d h a s a s k e d fo r a n u r g e n t e n g a g e m e n t t o d is c u s s t h e m a t t e r. T h e S A B C - th e b o a r d h a s in f o r me d t h e M i n is t e r t h a t a s a r e s u l t o f t h e c u r r e n t s ta t u s o f t h e S A B C ’s f u n d in g r e q u e s t t h e b o a r d i s l e f t w i t h n o o p t io n b u t t o i m p l e m e n t th e r e q u ir e m e n t o f t h e C o m p a n ie s A c t t a k in g i n t o a c c o u n t t h e s e v e r e i m p l ic a t i o n s o n D ir e c t o r s l i a b il i ty. The board has a s s u r e d t h e M in is t e r s o f i ts c o m m i t m e n t t o s e r v in g 20 t h e c o r p o r a ti o n i n t h e p u b l ic i n t e r e s t . To th is e n d t h e b o a r d w il l c o n ti n u e t o w o r k w i t h t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n ic a t i o n s a n d D i g i t a l Te c h n o lo g i e s a n d t h e N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y. Is s u e d b y t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d o n b e h a lf o f t h e B o a r d . ” ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . Thank you. Page 207 of 216 T h e r e a r e t w o r e p o r ts 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 w h ic h y o u - w e h a v e n o t m e n t io n e d w h i c h y o u t e s ti f y - I b e g y o u r p a r d o n - y o u h a v e n o t t e s t i fi e d t o ju s t y e t. page 22 - at paragraph 22. T h o s e a r e d e a lt w i th a t I beg your pardon. At page 7 of your s t a te m e n t w h e r e th e n a s p a r t o f t h e c l e a n i n g u p o f th e S A B C … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. P a g e ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : P a g e 7 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Seven. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Paragraph 22, yes. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th e - t h e - y o u - t h e S A B C c o m m is s i o n e d t w o o th e r in q u ir ie s . C o u l d y o u ju s t t a l k t o t h o s e in q u ir ie s p l e a s e ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: C o m in g o u t o f t h e w o r k t h a t w a s d o n e b y t h e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r a n d t h e A d H o c C o m m i t t e e s p e c i f ic a l ly t h e r e w e r e a n u m b e r o f c o m p l a i n ts t h a t w e r e r a is e d a r o u n d t h e is s u e s o f h a r a s s m e n t a n d p o li ti c a l i n t e r fe r e n c e w i t h t h e e d i t o r ia l d e c is i o n s o f th e S A B C . S o i n o u r e ffo r t i n i m p l e m e n ti n g th e s e r e m e d i a l a c ti o n s lik e I h a v e s a i d t h a t w e a r e c o m m i t te d i n d o i n g t h a t . W e c o m m is s i o n e d t w o C o m m i s s i o n s o n e t o lo o k i n to t h e h a r a s s m e n t is s u e s a n d t h e o t h e r o n e 20 t o l o o k a t p o l it ic a l in t e r f e r e n c e . B o t h C o m m is s i o n s h a v e c o n c lu d e d . W e a r e a l m o s t d o n e w i t h P h a s e 1 o f i m p le m e n ti n g t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n of the harassment one. T h e o n e o n p o l it ic a l in t e r f e r e n c e w a s j u s t r e l e a s e d a f e w weeks ago. The r e c o m m e n d a t io n s c o m in g o u t o f t h a t w i ll b e in c o r p o r a t e d o r c o n s i d e r e d a s w e u p d a t e o u r e d i t o r i a l p o li c y a n d t h e n Page 208 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 w e w i ll b e a b l e t o m a k e s u r e th a t w e s t r e n g t h e n o u r g o v e r n a n c e t o ensure our e d i to r i a l in d e p e n d e n c e and p r o t e c ti n g th e editorial d e c is i o n s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . W h e n y o u a r e ta lk in g h a r a s s m e n t y o u m e a n s e x u a l h a r a s s m e n t? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: I mean sexual harassment yes. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s a n d t h e n t h e o t h e r r e p o r t t h a t d e a lt w i t h i n t e r f e r e n c e e d i to r i a l i n d e p e n d e n c e . 10 Th a t is th e o n e t h a t b y M r ( i n d is t in c t) . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: That is correct C h a ir p e r s o n . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . C h a ir t h a t r e p o r t is c o n t a in e d in E X H I B I T C C 1 9 a n d i t h a s fo u r v o lu m e s . C C 1 9 A t o D b u t Mr ( i n d is ti n c t) is g o i n g to t e s ti fy t o i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s , t h a n k y o u a n d t h e n - y o u t h e n in p a r a g r a p h 2 3 s a y t h a t m o s t o f t h e m a t t e r s - t h e d e t a i ls y o u l e a v e th e m u p t o t h e e x e c u t iv e s w h ic h a r e li n e d u p t o t e s ti fy a f te r y o u r - a ft e r y o u ? 20 M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: That is correct C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u a n d th e n l a s t ly - t h e n i f t h e n a c c o r d i n g t o t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t y o u h a v e g iv e n t o t h e m e d i a h o u s e s l ik e th e s t a t e m e n t t h a t y o u h a v e j u s t r e a d o u t a b o u t e i t h e r t h e S A B C c o m p ly in g f u l ly o r s u b s t a n t ia ll y w i t h t h e c o n d i t io n s . W h a t c o u l d Page 209 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 b e t h e r e a s o n f o r t h is b a il o u t n o t f o r t h c o m in g ? I t h a s b e e n h o w m a n y y o u s a i d 1 8 m o n th s n o w ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: I t i s a l m o s t 2 4 m o n t h s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: If you consider the p e r i o d u n d e r t h e I n t e r i m B o a r d b e c a u s e t h e I n te r i m B o a r d p u t t h e fir s t a p p lic a ti o n i n 2 0 1 7 , J u n e . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Ye s . So - so what could be the reason? D o y o u - I d o n o t w a n t y o u t o s p e c u l a t e b u t d o y o u - i s it s o m e t h i n g 10 t h a t y o u c a n t a lk t o o r y o u fe e l t h a t y o u d o n o t w a n t to e v e n s p e c u la t e ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: To b e h o n e s t b e c a u s e w e w e r e g iv e n 11 c o n d i t io n s a n d w e h a v e c o m p l ie d w it h a ll o f t h e m a n d t h e r e s u l t s a r e s h o w i n g t h a t t h e b u s i n e s s is t u r n i n g a r o u n d . Yo u c o u l d s e e that even our losses are decreasing. We have reduced it by 33 p e r c e n t . I a m n o t s u r e w h a t w i ll b e a n y o t h e r r e a s o n a b le r e a s o n fo r n o t a s s is ti n g t h e S A B C c o n s i d e r i n g w h a t t h e t e a m h a s b e e n a b le t o d e liv e r. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Have you - did - did you have to communicate with t h e M i n is t e r o f C o m m u n ic a t i o n s a n d s h e i n tu r n h a s t o c o m m u n i c a t e 20 w i t h t h e M in is t e r o f F in a n c e o r d o e s S A B C o r is S A B C a b l e t o a p p r o a c h N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y d ir e c t ly a n d fi n d o u t w h a t is h o l d i n g t h in g s b a c k ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: T h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e p r o t o c o ls f o r c o m m u n ic a ti o n i s t h a t S A B C s u b m i ts a n y t h in g t h a t t h e y n e e d t o s u b m i t to t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n i c a t io n a n d th e n t h e C o m m u n i c a t io n D e p a r t m e n t t h e n e n g a g e s w i th t h e M i n is t e r o f F in a n c e Page 210 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 a n d I t h i n k t h a t i s w h y i n o u r r e s p o n s e w e a r e r e s p e c t f u l ly s a y i n g m a y b e t h e M i n i s t e r s h a v e n o t b e e n a p p r a i s e d o r g iv e n s ig h t o f w h a t w e h a v e s u b m i tt e d b e c a u s e in th e l a s t 1 8 m o n t h s - s o r r y - e ig h t m o n t h s w e have s u b m i t te d s u b s t a n t iv e d o c u m e n t a t io n to c o m p ly w it h those c o n d i ti o n s . CHAIRPERSON: H m a n d y o u h a v e n o t b e e n t o l d b y t h e M i n is t e r o f C o m m u n i c a t io n s w h y t h e r e is a d e l a y in t h e d e c is i o n b e i n g t a k e n w i th r e g a r d t o g r a n ti n g S A B C w h a t i s r e f e r r e d t o a s t h e b a i l o u t o r e i th e r t h e f u n d i n g t h a t i t r e q u ir e s o r th e p o r ti o n t h a t f a l ls w it h in th e b u d g e t o f 10 G o v e r n m e n t ? In o th e r w o r d s i f y o u h a v e a s k e d fo r 1 0 0 p e r c e n t . T h e y m u s t b e a b l e t o s a y w e c a n n o t g iv e y o u a n y th in g f o r r e a s o n A , B , C , D o r w e c a n o n ly g iv e y o u 5 0 p e r c e n t a n d th e s e a r e t h e r e a s o n s w h y w e c a n n o t g i v e y o u th e o t h e r 5 0 p e r c e n t . H a v e t h e y n o t c o m e b a c k t o y o u - t h e M i n i s t e r o f C o m m u n ic a ti o n s - t o t e ll y o u w h e th e r a d e c is i o n h a s b e e n t a k e n o n e w a y o r a n o t h e r a s t o w h a t if a n y th in g SABC would be given? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Thank you Chairperson f o r a s k in g t h e q u e s t io n . R e a s o n a b l e - lo g ic a ll y th a t is w h a t y o u w o u l d e x p e c t. T h a t i f I w a s g i v e n 11 c o n d i t io n s a n d le t u s s a y f o r a r g u m e n t 20 s a k e I h a v e m e t 5 0 p e r c e n t o f th o s e . I s h o u l d t h e n b e g iv e n 5 0 p e r c e n t o f t h e f u n d i n g . N o w th e r e a r e 11 c o n d i t io n s . W e a r e o f t h e v i e w l ik e I h a v e r e a d t h e s ta t e m e n t th a t w e h a v e s u b s ta n ti a lly a l l m e t t h e s e c o n d i t io n s . W e h a v e n o t b e e n g iv e n a c e n t o f t h e R 3 .2 b i ll io n b u t th e r e a r e e v e n i n s t a n c e s w h e r e t h e y t h e m s e l v e s a d m i t t h a t w e h a v e m e t t h e c o n d i ti o n a r o u n d f o r a n e x a m p l e Page 211 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 c o n s e q u e n c e m a n a g e m e n t . S o w h e r e is t h e m o n e y t h a t t a l k s to t h a t ? S o t o h o l d b a c k t h e e n t ir e a m o u n t w h e n y o u k n o w t h a t t h e o r g a n i s a t io n is p l a n n in g . P e o p le ’s li v e s a r e a t r is k . B u s in e s s a r e b e i n g s h u t b e c a u s e t h e fa c t t h a t w e c a n n o t p a y t h o s e s u p p l ie r s it m e a n s s o m e o f t h e s e b u s in e s s e s a r e s h u tt i n g d o w n . O u r e m p lo y e e s a r e in a n d o u t o f h o s p i t a l b e c a u s e o f u s n o t b e i n g a b l e t o m a i n t a i n a n d c o m p ly w i t h h e a l t h a n d s a f e ty s t a n d a r d s . I t l e a v e s a lo t o f c o n f u s io n . CHAIRPERSON: being shut. 10 I m e a n y o u ta lk a b o u t b u s i n e s s e s t h a t y o u a r e - a r e I m e a n - I t h in k fo r s o m e y e a r s n o w I t h in k G o v e r n m e n t w a s - h a s b e e n t a lk in g t h e la n g u a g e t h a t s m a ll b u s i n e s s e s m u s t b e p a i d w i t h i n 3 0 d a y s a n d a l l o f th a t . I n y o u r s it u a t io n t h e r e m u s t b e a l o t o f s m a ll b u s i n e s s e s t h a t y o u a r e n o t a b l e t o p a y fo r q u i t e s o m e ti m e b e c a u s e t h e r e i s s i m p ly n o m o n e y. M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: That is correct C h a ir p e r s o n . T h a n k y o u . Th e o n l y t h i n g w e a r e a b l e t o p a y r e l ig i o u s ly e v e r y m o n th is o u r s t a ff . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: O u r s a l a r y b i ll i s s i t ti n g a t a b o u t R 2 6 0 m ill i o n . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: A f t e r p a y in g t h a t t h e r e is n o t h i n g l e f t. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h a t - w h a t i t m e a n s i t g o e s b a c k to t h e p o i n t y o u - p a r t o f t h e p o i n t y o u h a v e ju s t m a d e . W h a t i t m e a n s i s t h a t i f t h e r e lo ts o f f o r e x a m p le s m a l l b u s i n e s s e s s u p p l ie r s t h a t th e S A B C r e li e s o n . Page 212 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 T h e y a r e n o t b e i n g p a id a n d t h o s e b u s i n e s s p e o p l e w h o a r e s u p p o s e d t o h e l p t h e e c o n o m y g r o w. T h e y h a v e t o c lo s e d o w n t h e ir b u s i n e s s e s b e c a u s e t h e y a r e n o t b e i n g p a i d fo r m o n t h s a n d m o n t h s a n d m o n th s o n end. M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t i t m e a n s . Is th a t r i g h t? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: C h a ir p e r s o n . T h a t is w h a t i t m e a n s S A B C p la y s a c r it ic a l r o l e in th e e n tir e b r o a d c a s ti n g in d u s tr y. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: If SABC goes down it h a s g o t a r i p p le e ff e c t i n t h e e n ti r e in d u s tr y. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u s e e p a r t o f th e - s o m e t i m e s w h a t - w h a t i s d i ff ic u l t t o u n d e r s ta n d is w h e n p e o p l e d o n o t - p e o p l e w h o a r e a p p o i n t e d t o m a k e d e c is io n s - w h o s e j o b is t o m a k e d e c is io n s d o n o t m a k e d e c is i o n s f o r a lo n g ti m e . I mea n you have got to make a d e c is i o n w h e th e r p e o p le c r it ic is e y o u a n d s a y i t is a w r o n g d e c i s i o n o r not. I f y o u r jo b is t o m a k e a d e c is i o n y o u m u s t m a k e t h e d e c i s i o n . 20 O n e w a y o r a n o t h e r p e o p le m u s t k n o w w h e r e t h e y s t a n d a n d y o u m u s t provide your reasons. T h e r e is a ti m e t o g a t h e r in f o r m a t io n th a t y o u n e e d i n o r d e r t o m a k e y o u r d e c i s i o n o n e w a y o r a n o th e r b u t f o r - f o r a s i tu a ti o n t o b e a ll o w e d t o d e v e l o p w h e r e y o u k n o w a n i m p o r ta n t p u b l ic in s t i tu t io n w a it s f o r a l o n g , l o n g ti m e w i t h o u t d e c i s i o n s b e i n g m a d e a n d in t h e m e a n ti m e y o u k n o w s m a l l b u s i n e s s e s g e t r e a l ly a ff e c te d i n a v e r y Page 213 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 b a d w a y. I t i s - i t i s s o m e th i n g t h a t s h o u ld b e a v o i d e d a n d - a n d a l l o n e w o u ld e x p e c t is t h a t a t l e a s t d e c i s i o n s m u s t b e t a k e n . I f th e d e c i s i o n is t h a t l o o k w e c a n n o t g iv e y o u t h e m o n e y o r w e c a n o n ly g iv e y o u s o much let the decision be taken so that everybody knows okay that is the decision. H o w d o w e li v e w it h it ? o p e r a ti o n s a p p r o p r i a te ly ? How do we plan our - our S o - s o h o p e f u ll y t h o s e d e c is io n s w i ll b e t a k e n s o o n . Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Do you - do you have any or did you want to say something … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O r n o t r e a ll y ? M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: I f u l ly a g r e e w i t h y o u C h a ir p e r s o n th a t l e a d e r s h ip is a b o u t m a k i n g d e c is io n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . I m e a n y o u k n o w s o m e ti m e s it i s j u s t w o r s e t h a t y o u a r e p u tt i n g i n a l e a d e r s h i p p o s i ti o n b u t y o u c a n n o t m a k e d e c is i o n s . I t is - s o m e t i m e s y o u f e e l i t is b e t t e r t o h a v e s o m e b o d y w h o w i ll m a k e a b a d d e c is io n . 20 Then everybody knows where they stand. O k a y. M s N o r m a n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h a n k y o u . C h a ir t h a t is t h e e v i d e n c e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Fr o m t h i s w i t n e s s . T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r M a k h a t h i n i f o r c o m in g t o Page 214 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 s h a r e w i t h t h e C o m m i s s io n w h a t y o u k n o w is h a p p e n in g i n r e g a r d t o t h e S A B C . I f a n e e d a r i s e s w e w il l a s k y o u t o c o m e b a c k b u t f o r n o w y o u are excused. M R B O N G U M U S A E M M A N U E L M A K H AT H I N I: Th a n k you for the o p p o r t u n i ty C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a i r I w a s g o i n g t o s u g g e s t t h a t w e a d jo u r n to d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : M a y b e w e c o u l d s ta r t e a r l y t o m o r r o w b u t b u t w e a r e n o t p a r t ic u l a r ly w o r r i e d C h a ir. I th i n k w e h a v e s p a c e d … CHAIRPERSON: Oh the spacing of - yes. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: O u r w i t n e s s e s q u i t e , q u i te f a ir ly. I think w e w ill b e a b l e a t l e a s t t h o s e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t a r e li n e d u p f o r t h e w e e k . Th e y w i ll d e f in i te ly fi n is h t h i s w e e k . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l w e c a n s ta r t a t 1 0 t o m o r r o w i f y o u … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Fe e l t h a t … A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n y o u l o o k a t th e w h o l e w e e k . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: E v e r y t h i n g s h o u l d b e fi n e a n d w e s t a r t e a r ly o n ly i f w e n e e d to m a k e s u r e . Page 215 of 216 02 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 154 ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: If you need to, yes. 10 o’ clock then C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o 1 0 o ’ c l o c k is g o i n g t o b e fi n e t o m o r r o w ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : 1 0 o ’ c lo c k . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I w i ll a p p r e c ia t e t h a t . T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: We are then going to adjourn for the day and t o m o r r o w w e w il l s t a r t a t 1 0 o ’ c l o c k . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir. R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS Page 216 of 216