C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 0 2 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9 D AY 1 7 5 20 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 P R O C E E D I N G S R E S U M E O N 2 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9 C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M r Pr e t o r i u s , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M o r n i n g C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: We… A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u h a v e s e t d o w n fo r fi n a l h e a r in g th e A p p li c a t io n f o r C r o s s - e x a m i n a ti o n o f M i n i s te r G o r d h a n o n b e h a l f o f M r M o y a n e a n d I b e li e v e Mr M p o f u w il l c o m m e n c e . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s ju s t f o r t h e r e c o r d w e a r e in t e r r u p t i n g t h e e v i d e n c e o f C o lo n e l N a i d o o fo r m e t o h e a r a r g u m e n t o n a n a p p li c a t io n t h a t h a s g o t n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h h i m r e l a t i n g t o L e a v e to A p p e a l – L e a v e t o C r o s s - e x a m in e s o u g h t b y M r M o y a n e . T h a t is L e a v e t o C r o s s - e x a m in e M i n is te r G o r d h a n . A n d w e w i ll r e s u m e t h e h e a r in g o f C o l o n e l N a i d o o ’s e v i d e n c e a f t e r t h a t. Ye s o k a y. Maybe we can just have e v e r y b o d y p l a c e th e m s e lv e s o n r e c o r d f i r s t a n d th e n M r M p o f u c a n start. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h a n k y o u . G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g Mr M p o fu . 20 ADV DALI MPOFU: Thank you. Chairperson I appear once again for M r M o y a n e i n t h is a p p lic a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : W i t h m y l e a r n e d f r i e n d a n d j u n i o r Mr K h a s ib o t o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u . A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : M o r n i n g C h a ir I a p p e a r f o r … Page 2 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: F o r M i n i s t e r G o r d h a n in t h i s a p p l ic a ti o n a n d p l a c e o n r e c o r d m y g r a t i tu d e f o r t h e ti m i n g o f th e a p p l ic a ti o n t h i s m o r n in g . Th a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Thank you. A D V D A L I M P O F U : C h a ir c a n I h a v e p e r m is s i o n t o h a v e Mr K h a s i b o t o s i tt i n g h e r e ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , y e s . I t is f in e j a . ADV DALI MPOFU: I would not want him to be evicted by Ms Norman. 10 CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine. ADV DALI MPOFU: Thank you. Thank you… CHAIRPERSON: W e ll I a m j u s t g o in g t o s u m m a r is e t o m a k e a fe w r e m a r k s th a t a r e in t e n d e d to f a c i li t a te a r g u m e n t a n d e x p e d it e it . A n d a s y o u a d d r e s s m e I w il l s o m e ti m e s b e m a k i n g r e m a r k s o r p u t ti n g q u e s t io n s t h a t m ig h t n o t a l l b e i n te n d e d f o r y o u r e a l ly b u t t h a t m i g h t b e in t e n d e d to a s s is t M s L e R o u x to k n o w w h a t m y – w h a t is i n m y m i n d s o t h a t w h e n s h e s t a n d s u p – w h e n s h e r is e s s h e c a n a d d r e s s a l l o f th o s e is s u e s . A s y o u r e c a ll e x c e p t i n r e g a r d t o o n e is s u e I d is m is s e d Mr 20 M o y a n e ’s a p p li c a t io n f o r L e a v e t o C r o s s - e x a m i n e M i n is t e r G o r d h a n a n d I g a v e r e a s o n s f o r t h a t a n d I s u b s e q u e n t ly a s k e d b o t h s id e s t o m a k e c e r t a i n – t o fi le a ff id a v i ts o r m a k e w r i t te n s u b m is s io n s w h ic h w a s d o n e . A n d o f t h e t h i n g s I w a n te d w a s f o r M r G o r d h a n t o c l a r if y a c e r t a in i s s u e in h is a ffi d a v it . I th in k fr o m h is c l a r i f ic a to r y a ff i d a v i t h e u n d e r s t a n d s t h a t I – Page 3 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 h e t h in k s I m is u n d e r s t o o d h is a ff id a v i t. M a y b e I d id b u t if I d id I t h in k t h e n i t m u s t b e b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e v a r io u s p a r ts t h a t m i g h t – th a t g iv e o n e d i ff e r e n t u n d e r s t a n d in g . T h a t i s s u e w a s r e a l ly w h e th e r M in is t e r G o r d h a n w a s s a y i n g t h a t i n l a y i n g c r i mi n a l c h a r g e s a g a i n s t h i m M r M o y a n e a c te d w i t h m a lic e . ADV DALI MPOFU: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d o f c o u r s e a c t in g w i t h m a l ic e c o u ld b e b a s e d o n v a r io u s th i n g s . 10 C o u l d b e b e c a u s e y o u j u s t d o n o t lik e t h e p e r s o n . It c o u l d b e b e c a u s e y o u h a v e a c e r t a i n il l e g it i m a t e a g e n d a . Yo u w a n t t o p u t t h e p e r s o n in tr o u b l e . ADV DALI MPOFU: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: I t c o u ld b e a l l k i n d s o f t h in g s . B u t h i s c l a r i f ic a to r y a ffi d a v i t w e ll s a id 1 . I t w a s n e v e r – h e n e v e r s a i d i n h is a ffi d a v i t th a t M r M o y a n e a c t e d w i t h m a l ic e . H e s a id i t w a s Mr M o y a n e ’s w h o s a i d i n h is a ffi d a v i t h e u n d e r s t o o d t h a t it w a s i m p li e d i n Mr G o r d h a n ’s a ff i d a v i t th a t h e h a d a c t e d w i t h m a lic e . ADV DALI MPOFU: Hm. 20 CHAIRPERSON: And – but in the end – well at some stage Mr Gordhan s a y s i n h is a ff i d a v i t , c l a r if ic a t o r y a ff i d a v i t t h a t h e d i d n o t k n o w w h a t w a s i n Mr M o y a n e ’s m in d w h e n h e l a i d c h a r g e s a g a i n s t h i m . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s o m e w h e r e h e s a y s w h a t e v e r m a y h a v e b e e n in h is m i n d w a s ir r e l e v a n t. M a y b e if h e h a d s t o p p e d t h e r e m i g h t h a v e Page 4 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 b e e n n o n e e d f o r t h is h e a r i n g b e c a u s e m a y b e t h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n a g r o u n d f o r m e t o s a y w e ll h e is n o t a ll e g i n g a n y m a l ic e a g a i n s t M r M o y a n e i n l a y i n g c h a r g e s t h e r e f o r e t h e r e i s n o is s u e . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i n h is a ff i d a v i t h e t h e n A D V D A L I M P O F U : G o e s f u r t h e r. CHAIRPERSON: W e n t f u r t h e r a n d s a i d a s I u n d e r s t a n d h is a ffi d a v i t what he did mean or what he does mean or what he does contend is t h a t Mr M o y a n e a b u s e d t h e l e g a l p r o c e s s . 10 By which I mean I u n d e r s t a n d h i m t o m e a n in l a y i n g c h a r g e s a g a i n s t h i m M r M o y a n e abused the legal process. ADV DALI MPOFU: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e th e a ls o s a y s a s I u n d e r s t a n d it – h i s a ff id a v i t. H e s a y s i n e ff e c t M r M o y a n e w a s d o in g th i s in f u r th e r a n c e o f … A D V D A L I M P O F U : S t a te c a p tu r e . CHAIRPERSON: T h e s t a te c a p tu r e a g e n d a . I m a y b e p u t ti n g t h is i n m y o w n w o r d s b u t th a t is h o w I u n d e r s t a n d i t. I t m a y b e t h a t h e i s n o t c o n fi n i n g t h is to th e l a y i n g o f c h a r g e s . M a y b e t h a t h e g o e s f u r t h e r t o s a y t h e r e a r e a lo t o f o t h e r th in g s t h a t h e d id w h i le – M r M o y a n e d i d 20 w h il e M r G o r d h a n w a s M i n is t e r o f Fi n a n c e w h ic h M r M o y a n e d i d a s p a r t o f f u r t h e r i n g t h e a g e n d a o f s t a t e c a p tu r e . ADV DALI MPOFU: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w m y p r i m a f a c ie v i e w is t h a t w i t h i n t h e c o n t e x t o f t h is c o m m i s s io n i f y o u s a y th a t s o m e b o d y d i d c e r ta in t h i n g s to f u r t h e r t h e a g e n d a o f s t a t e c a p t u r e t h a t is q u i te a s e r i o u s a ll e g a t io n a n d th a t Page 5 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 p r o v i d e d a ll o t h e r r e q u ir e m e n t s t h a t n e e d t o b e m e t f o r p u r p o s e s o f g r a n t in g L e a v e t o C r o s s - e x a m i n e p r o v i d e d t h e y a r e m e t t h e in c l in a ti o n w o u ld b e to g r a n t L e a v e to C r o s s - e x a m in e . B e c a u s e i t i s q u i te a s e r io u s a l l e g a ti o n . B u t o f c o u r s e M i n i s te r G o r d h a n s a y s m y – t h e b a s is f o r m e s a y in g t h a t M r M o y a n e w a s a c t i n g a s h e d id in f u r t h e r a n c e o f t h e a g e n d a o f s t a te c a p t u r e i s n o w t o b e f o u n d i n th e f in d i n g s o f th e n e w N u g e n t C o m m is s i o n . ADV DALI MPOFU: Hm. 10 CHAIRPERSON: S o t h e n – t h e n th e q u e s t io n f o r m e a r is e s o k a y h o w d o w e d e a l w i t h i t . [ I n d is ti n c t ] d i d n o t g iv e e v i d e n c e in t h e N u g e n t Commission. S o t h e r e i s th e q u e s t i o n o f h i s v e r s io n h e n c e t h e – t h e id e a t h a t m a y b e i f I – I a n d I a m b e i n g i n c l i n e d t o g r a n t le a v e t h e r e w o u ld n e e d t o b e s o m e p r o v is i o n fo r M r M o y a n e t o p r o v i d e h is v e r s i o n in r e l a ti o n t o t h o s e fi n d i n g s . B a s ic a l ly th a t i s m y t h i n k i n g a n d m o s t o f i t w o u l d h a v e – w o u l d h a v e b e e n in t h e l e t t e r t h a t – i n th e e m a il th a t w a s s e n t t o y o u . But t h e n y o u c a n a d d r e s s m e y o u h a v e a fu ll p i c t u r e o f w h a t i s i n m y m i n d . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . Th a n k y o u – t h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n a n d a ls o 20 t h a n k y o u f o r – f o r g iv in g u s a p r e v i e w s o to s p e a k o f y o u r p r i m a f a c ie v ie w. I t m ig h t o r m i g h t n o t d e p e n d i n g o n t h e a t ti t u d e o f M s L e R o u x o r M r G o r d h a n c u r t a i l th e p r o c e e d i n g s . W e ll C h a ir p e r s o n t h e – th e n r e a l ly w e h a v e t w o is s u e s t h a t I n e e d t o d e a l w it h – b r o a d is s u e s . T h e r e m i g h t b e s u b - is s u e s w i t h i n them. Page 6 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 T h e fir s t o n e w h ic h I w a n t t o d e a l w i t h v e r y q u i c k ly is t o c o n fir m t h a t y o u r p r i m a f a c ie v ie w is – i s c o r r e c t . If I persuade you t h a t t h a t p r i m a f a c i e v i e w is c o r r e c t o r i f M s L e R o u x d o e s n o t s a y a n y th in g to d is t u r b t h a t p r i m a f a c ie v ie w t h e n I w i ll a d d r e s s y o u C h a ir on what should then happen. T h e o p ti o n s – t h e r e w e r e t w o o p ti o n s w h ic h y o u p r e s e n t e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A LI M P O F U : O p t i o n 1 w a s t h a t y o u w o u l d g r a n t l e a v e o r r a t h e r y o u w o u l d a s k fo r 10 CHAIRPERSON: The version. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A v e r s io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d t h e n – a n d t h e n g iv e a r u l in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s . ADV DALI MPOFU: Option 2 was that you would grant leave. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Pr o v is io n a l ly s o to s p e a k . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : G r a n t le a v e p r o v i s i o n a l ly. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : O n r e c e iv in g a v e r s i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: In our response last night to you we – we p r e s e n t e d a th ir d o p ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 7 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 A D V D A L I M P O F U : W h ic h i s w h a t I w a n t t o a d d r e s s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : In m y s e c o n d le g . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h a t t h ir d o p t io n i s t h a t – is t h a t t h e C h a ir s h o u ld a c t u a ll y g r a n t l e a v e u n c o n d i ti o n a l ly a n d I w il l a d d r e s s t h e C h a i r a s t o w h y a n d t h a t is b e c a u s e w e – o u r v ie w i s th a t t h e li n k a g e w h ic h t h e C h a ir h a s j u s t a r t ic u l a t e d b e tw e e n t h e a l le g a ti o n s o f m a li c e i f t h e y s t a n d a n d t h e N u g e n t R e p o r t is – i s i n o u r v i e w u n s u b s t a n ti a te d a n d i t 10 c a n n o t s t a n d . A n d I w il l a d d r e s s C h a ir o n t h a t . S o le t u s s ta r t q u i c k l y w i t h t h e fir s t is s u e . C h a ir t h e – y o u w i ll r e c a l l th a t w e – i n o u r s u b m is s io n s w h ic h w e f il e d o n t h e 2 8 M a y 2 0 1 9 . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . ADV DALI MPOFU: W e m a d e th e p o i n t t h a t th e C h a ir is m a k in g . N a m e ly th a t i t is – o n e c a n n o t s a y t h a t th e a l l e g a ti o n s w e r e n o t m a d e w i t h o u t m a l ic e . I t is i n c o n s i s te n t w it h th e v e r y a ffi d a v i t o f M r G o r d h a n . T h a t is w h y w e d i d n o t e v e n f il e a n a ffi d a v it b e c a u s e o u r v ie w w a s th a t it w o u ld b e a w a s t e o f t h e ti m e o f t h e c o m m is s i o n . B e c a u s e i n h is o w n a ffi d a v i t t h e r e i s e n o u g h t o s u s t a i n th e a c c u s a ti o n . 20 A n d w e q u o te d p a g e 2 o f t h a t d o c u m e n t – s o m e o f t h e – th e e x c e r p ts t h a t t h e C h a ir w a s r e f e r r i n g t o . W e s a y – h e h a s n e v e r d e n i e d t h e i m p u t a ti o n o f m a lic e a n d I w il l e x p la i n w h y w e s a y t h a t . A ll h e s a y h e d o e s i t w h a t w e l a w y e r s c a l l c o n fe s s io n a n d avoidance. I n o t h e r w o r d s h e s a y s y e s y o u w e r e m a l ic i o u s b u t i t is ir r e l e v a n t . J a . Page 8 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 N o w I w il l s h o w y o u C h a ir th a t i t c a n n o t b e ir r e l e v a n t a n d o n c e y o u r e m o v e t h e a v o id a n c e s o t o s p e a k t h e n y o u a r e l e f t w i t h t h e c o n fe s s i o n w h ic h is th a t i t w a s m a li c i o u s a n d t h e r e f o r e o n th a t b a s is t h e L e a v e t o C r o s s - e x a m in e s h o u ld b e g r a n te d . A n d w e th e n lis t v e r y – t h e – fo u r q u o t a ti o n fr o m t h e – fr o m h is a ffi d a v i t . I t is a t 7 . 1 o f o u r s u b m is s i o n s . R a t h e r p a r a g r a p h 7 . H e s a y s a t p a r a g r a p h 1 5 o f h is a ff id a v i t I a m q u o ti n g t h e a ff id a v i t o f M r Gordhan. “ T h e k e y p o i n t o f m y e v i d e n c e w a s my p e r s o n a l b e l ie f th a t th e e n tir e 10 p r o c e s s o f in v e s ti g a t io n a n d b r i n i n g – b r i n g i n g w h i c h i s w h a t M r M o y a n i d i d a n d w i t h d r a w a l o f c h a r g e s a g a in s t m e b y t h e N PA w a s p a r t o f a c a m p a i g n o f s t a te c a p tu r e in s ti t u t i o n s . ” He then says at paragraph 22.4. “ I t h e r e f o r e d o m e a n t h a t t h e Mr M o y a n e w a s m o ti v e d w h o lly o r i n p a r t o r h e s o u g h t t o a d v a n c e t h e o b j e c ti v e s o f s t a t e c a p t u r e a n d h e w a s a b u s i n g a le g a l p r o c e s s fo r h is o w n p e r s o n a l g o a ls . ” T h e n t h e t h ir d o n e h e s a y s : “ I b e li e v e ” 20 T h a t is n o w a t p a r a g r a p h 2 2 . 5 “ I b e l ie v e t h a t M r M o y a n e ’s p e r s o n a l g o a l s i n c l u d e d the advancement of state capture.” And then he says at paragraph 31. “ M y p e r s o n a l b e li e f r e m a i n s t h a t M r M o y a n e a b u s e d h is p o s it i o n . ” Page 9 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 S o m e w h e r e i n h is a ffi d a v it h e e v e n s a y s Mr M o y a n e w a s m o t iv a t e d b y r a c is m . N o w t h e s i m p le p o in t w e w ill m a k e t h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n is th a t i t h a r d ly l ie s in th e m o u th o f a p e r s o n w h o s a y s t h e s e t h i n g s t o d e n y th a t t h e r e is a n i m p u t a ti o n o f m a l ic e . Because h o w c a n – h o w c a n y o u a b u s e – l a y fa ls e c h a r g e s s o t o s p e a k in t h e a d v a n c e m e n t o f t h e s t a t e c a p tu r e p r o j e c t b u t y o u d o i t n ic e l y w i th o u t a n y m a l ic e – w i t h o u t a n y m a l ic i o u s i n t e n t . I t is j u s t n o n s e n s ic a l . CHAIRPERSON: J a I – I – y o u s e e a s I u n d e r s t a n d h is a ffi d a v i t n o w c e r t a i n p a r ts o f it g iv e d i ff e r e n t – m a k e y o u u n d e r s t a n d i t d i ff e r e n t ly. I 10 m e a n i n t h e d ir e c t io n t h a t I i s s u e d w h e n I a s k e d f o r t h e – a c l a r i fic a t o r y a ffi d a v i t . ADV DALI MPOFU: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: E v e n i n th a t d ir e c t io n I d i d s a y t h a t w h e n y o u r e a d c e r t a i n p a r ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O f h is a ff i d a v i ts y o u th in k h e is m e a n i n g t h i s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : G o i n g t h i s w a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n y o u r e a d o t h e r p a r ts y o u t h in k h e is … A D V D A L I M P O F U : H e is g o in g … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h i s is s u e o f m a li c e . I d i d s a y t h a t. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . Yo u d id C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : E v e n i n y o u r r u li n g b y th e w a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Yo u s a i d w e ll w e d i ffe r. Page 10 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : W e d i ff e r w i th t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV DALI MPOFU: B e c a u s e y o u s a i d i n t h e r u li n g i f I r e m e m b e r th e words. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h a t h e e q u iv o c a ti n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . ADV DALI MPOFU: 10 N o w o u r v ie w o f c o u r s e is t h a t h e w a s n o t e q u iv o c a t i n g h e is v e r y c l e a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s j a . ADV DALI MPOFU: But CHAIRPERSON: J a w e l l it i s a n i n t e r e s ti n g s i tu a ti o n . I th o u g h t h e e q u iv o c a t i n g y o u th o u g h t h e i s v e r y c le a r. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h a t is m a l ic io u s . C H A I R P E R S O N : H e a g r e e s w i t h y o u h e t h in k s h e w a s v e r y c le a r. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u a r e o n o p p o s i t e e n d s a b o u t th a t c l a r i ty. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s y e s o f c o u r s e . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d t h i n k A D V D A L I M P O F U : O f c o u r s e . N a tu r a lly C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n y w a y b u t w h e n i t c o m e s to m a l ic e I th in k t h a t i f y o u tr y a n d u n d e r s t a n d w h a t h e h a s t o s a y a b o u t m a li c e in s o f a r a s y o u t a k e t h e is s u e o f s t a t e c a p tu r e a g e n d a o u t o f i t . I a m f a r fr o m c e r t a i n a s t o what he says. Page 11 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: B u t o n c e y o u b r i n g i n t h e a s p e c t o f s ta t e c a p tu r e i t s e e m s t o m e t h a t i t w o u ld b e d i ff ic u l t t o s a y – i t w o u l d b e d i ffic u lt t o s a y s o m e b o d y w a s l a y i n g c h a r g e s a g a i n s t y o u in p u r s u i t o f th e a g e n d a o f s t a te c a p t u r e b u t h e w a s n o t a c t in g w i th m a l ic e . B u t m a y b e i t c a n b e argued I am not sure. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t m a y b e i t c a n b e a r g u e d . T h a t is fi n e . S o h e m a y b e m a k i n g s o m e d is t in c t i o n b u t i t s e e m s t o m e th a t e v e n if o n e w e r e t o 10 s a y l e t u s l e a v e o u t t h e is s u e o f m a lic e t h e m o m e n t y o u s a y w h a t y o u a c t u a ll y m e a n is t h a t th is p e r s o n w a s a c ti n g i n p u r s u it o f th e a g e n d a o f s t a te c a p tu r e . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . T h a t is e n o u g h . CHAIRPERSON: T h a t is th e k i n d o f a ll e g a t io n t h a t s h o u ld o r d i n a r il y a tt r a c t th e g r a n t o f L e a v e t o C r o s s - e x a m i n e i f a ll t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts a r e met. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h a n k y o u C h a ir I w il l n o t e v e n s p o i l th a t – t h a t i s 20 e x a c tl y w h a t w e a r e s a y i n g . I n o t h e r w o r d s th e a lt e r n a tiv e a n d s h o r tc u t s o to s p e a k i s t o s a y l e t u s f o r g e t a b o u t th i s d e b a te a b o u t m a l ic e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d th e s e m a n t ic m e a n i n g o f m a li c e . L e t u s j u s t lo o k a t w h a t h e s a y s f o r g e t m a li c e . I th e r e fo r e d o m e a n t h a t M r M o y a n e w a s m o t iv a te d w h o l ly o r i n p a r t o r h e s o u g h t to a d v a n c e t h e Page 12 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 o b j e c ti v e s o f s t a te c a p t u r e i n l a y in g t h e c h a r g e s . I t c a n n o t b e c l e a r e r t h a n th a t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: S o th a t a d d r e s s is a d o u b le b a r r e l a n s w e r t o t h e w h o le i s s u e b e c a u s e i t b o t h a d d r e s s e s t h e q u e s t io n o f m o ti v e b u t it a ls o a d d r e s s e s th e q u e s t i o n o f r e l e v a n c e . B e c a u s e i f h e w a s d o i n g th is t o a d v a n c e s o m e o t h e r m o t iv e a b o u t f o o t b a l l … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o w t h i n g s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : J a t h e n i t h a d n o th i n g to d o w it h y o u C h a ir. B u t i f 10 h e i s d o i n g i t – t h e m a l ic e t h e k in d o f m a li c e is i n a d v a n c e m e n t o f s ta t e c a p tu r e th e n i t is li k e ly i n y o u r z o n e . Th is a f t e r a ll is th e s t a t e c a p t u r e c o m m i s s io n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : S o a n y t h i n g – a n y a c c u s a ti o n th a t is m o t iv a te d b y s t a te c a p tu r e m u s t b e – m u s t b e – w e l l a . Is c l e a r ly n e g a t iv e t o M r M o y a n e ’s i n te r e s ts s o t h a t h e w a n ts to c r o s s - e x a m in e o n it b u t b . I t is r e l e v a n t t o th is c o m m i s s io n . S o I w i ll n o t a d d r e s s t h a t a n y f u r t h e r C h a ir. 20 As I s a y th e a ffi d a v i t s p e a k s fo r i ts e l f . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : I t d o e s n o t e v e n d e a l i n t h e s o c a ll e d m a lic e a n d m o t iv e fr o m t h e la y i n g o f t h e c h a r g e s w h i c h is t h e c o r e a c c u s a ti o n . It s a y s t h a t a c t io n o f b r in g in g w a s p a r t o f a c a m p a i g n o f s t a t e c a p t u r e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. The… Page 13 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 ADV DALI MPOFU: So… C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e p a r t o f th e c o n c e r n I h a v e a n d t h is is o n e o f t h e t h i n g s I a m m e n ti o n i n g s o t h a t a ls o M s L e R o u x c a n t h in k a b o u t i t . O n e of the concerns I have is that – is whether the insofar as the c la r i fi c a t o r y a ffi d a v i t o f M i n is t e r G o r d h a n s a y s w h a t e v e r Mr M o y a n e d i d h e d id i n p u r s u i t o f t h e a g e n d a o f s t a te c a p t u r e to g e t m e r e m o v e d a s M i n is t e r o f F i n a n c e s o th a t a n o th e r M i n is t e r w h o w o u ld A D V D A L I M P O F U : P li a n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : G o a l o n g w i th t h a t a g e n d a w o u l d b e p u t i n . A n o th e r 10 c o n c e r n I h a v e i s w h e t h e r t h a t d o e s n o t h a v e – i f I a l lo w c r o s s e x a m in a ti o n o n i t d o e s n o t h a v e t h e e ffe c t o f o p e n i n g u p e ffe c t iv e l y t h e w h o le i s s u e a n d i s s u e s – a ll th e is s u e s t h a t I h a v e a l r e a d y d e c id e d t h e r e s h o u l d b e n o c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n o n . S o i f I w e r e t o g r a n t L e a v e p a r t o f m y c o n c e r n i s h o w d o I m a k e s u r e t h a t t h is d o e s n o t u n r a v e l a s it w e r e w h a t I h a v e a lr e a d y d e c id e d is n o t g o i n g to b e th e s u b je c t o f c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d o f c o u r s e y o u w i ll r e c a l l t h a t i n – in t h e d ir e c ti o n t h a t I is s u e d i n – d i r e c t i n g t h a t t h e r e s h o u l d b e a c l a r i f ic a to r y a ff id a v i t . 20 ADV DALI MPOFU: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: O n e o f t h e t h in g s I s a i d w a s t h a t t h is s h o u l d n o t b e u s e d t o b r in g u p n e w i s s u e s . I t h i n k I s a i d t h a t. N o w o f c o u r s e th e m o m e n t I w a n t t o – t h e m o m e n t I th i n k a b o u t w h e t h e r Mr G o r d h a n is b r i n g i n g u p n e w i s s u e s w h e n h e s a y s M r M o y a n e d i d th is i n f u r th e r a n c e o f t h e a g e n d a o f s t a t e c a p t u r e . T h e m o m e n t I a m t h i n k i n g a l o n g th o s e Page 14 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 li n e s I t h e n r e m e m b e r th a t w h a t h e s a y s i n h is c la r i fi c a t o r y a ffi d a v it is w h a t I m e a n t in w h a t I w a s s a y i n g i n m y a ffi d a v i t o r w h a t I m e a n is t h i s . H e s e e m s t o m e t o b e c l a r i fy i n g … A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: W h a t h e w a s s a y i n g i n t h e p r e v i o u s a ff i d a v i t . So t h e r e i s t h a t is s u e . S o – s o i t w o u l d b e i m p o r t a n t a s fa r a s p o s s ib le i t s e e m s t o m e s u b je c t t o a r g u m e n t t h a t w h a te v e r h a p p e n s if I d o g r a n t le a v e I s h o u l d p u t i n c h e c k s a n d b a l a n c e s t h a t w o u ld m a k e s u r e t h a t w h a t e v e r I h a v e d e c i d e d is n o t g o in g t o b e t h e s u b j e c t o f c r o s s 10 e x a m in a ti o n i t s h o u l d n o t b e u n d e r m i n e d . S o t h a t is w h a t is i n m y m i n d and … A D V D A L I M P O F U : J a C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m i g h t b e a b l e t o s a y s o m e t h i n g . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s n o I w il l – a g a i n I w il l n o t s p e n d m u c h t i m e o n t h a t b e c a u s e w e w i ll p r o b a b l y c r o s s t h a t b r id g e C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : If a n d w h e n w e c o m e t o i t . CHAIRPERSON: ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : B u t s u ffic e to s a y t h e f o ll o w i n g 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h e i s s u e – th is is s u e a r o s e in th e c o n t e x t o f w h a t w e c a ll e d t h e m e 5 . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: If you remember we had 5 themes. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 15 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 ADV DALI MPOFU: In respect of the four themes. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h e C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV DALI MPOFU: Refused CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : C r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n a n d b y t h e w a y th e – w e h a v e in s t r u c t i o n s t o ta k e t h a t d e c i s i o n o n r e v i e w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V D A L I M P O F U : B u t t h a t is a m a t te r f o r a n o t h e r d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV DALI MPOFU: T h e – a s f a r a s th e m e 5 is c o n c e r n e d a n d t h e is s u e t h a t t h e C h a ir n a r r o w ly d e f in e d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : C h a ir y o u a r e q u i t e c o r r e c t . T h e r e is b o u n d t o b e s o m e s p ill o v e r. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h a t s p il l o v e r h o w e v e r c a n b e c o n t a in e d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm 20 ADV DALI MPOFU: A n d t h e s p il l o v e r c o m e s fo r e x a m p le in t h e f o ll o w i n g f a s h io n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm ADV DALI MPOFU: Yo u r e m e m b e r w h e n y o u o p e n e d C h a i r y o u s a i d t h a t Mr G o r d h a n s a y s th a t h is a t ti t u d e w a s i n f o r m e d b y t h e N u g e n t Commission. Page 16 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 CHAIRPERSON: Hm A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . N o w th a t is s u e i s c l e a r l y in t e g r a ll y r e l a t e d to – t o th is q u e s t io n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d n u m b e r 1 . N u m b e r 2 y o u w a ll a ls o r e m e m b e r t h a t o u r a r g u m e n t w a s a lw a y s t h a t – r e m e m b e r th e r e a r e t w o t h i n g s h e r e . A t t h e e n d th e C h a i r m u s t e i th e r a c c e p t M r G o r d h a n ’s v e r s i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h a t M r M o y a n e is a s t a t e c a p t u r e r. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : C o n s p i r a t o r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A LI M P O F U : O r i t m u s t – t h e C h a ir m u s t a c c e p t t h a t n o Mr G o r d h a n a c t e d a s a n y c o m m i s s io n e r o f S A R S w o u l d h a v e a c t e d i n t h o s e c ir c u m s ta n c e s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h e r e is n o h a l f w a y h o u s e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: 20 N o w – f o r t h a t t o h a p p e n t h e n o b v io u s ly M r M o y a n e is g o in g t o h a v e to ta k e t h e C h a i r i n t o h i s c o n fi d e n c e e v e n in t e r m s o f t h e q u e s ti o n s th a t h e p u ts a s to w h y h e s a y s t h a t h is v e r s i o n is c o r r e c t. Mr G o r d h a n o n th e o t h e r h a n d i n a n s w e r i n g t h e q u e s t io n s w i ll s a y n o , n o , n o a l l t h a t n o t w i t h s t a n d i n g y o u w e r e p a r t o f t h e c o n s p ir a c y o r w h a te v e r. S o i t i s in e v i ta b l e t h a t q u e s t i o n s s u c h a s t h e – w h e t h e r t h e r e l ia n c e o n t h e N u g e n t C o m m is s i o n w a s c o r r e c t w il l b e – Page 17 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 w i ll b e – w i ll h a v e t o b e a n s w e r e d . W h a t e v e n c o m p o u n d s i t fu r t h e r i s t h a t s i n c e w e l a s t s p o k e h e r e th e r e h a v e b e e n t w o s i g n i fi c a n t d e v e l o p m e n ts i n r e g a r d to t h i s s o c a l le d r o g u e u n i t is s u e w h ic h w a s a t t h e c o r e o f t h e c h a r g e s . A n d t h a t is th a t t h e r e i s a P u b lic Pr o t e c t o r s R e p o r t o n t h e r o g u e u n i t a n d t h e C h a ir o n ly h a s t o t a k e j u d ic ia l n o tic e t h a t i t e x i s t s n o t t h a t i t is g o o d o r b a d o r in d i ffe r e n t. T h e r e is s u c h a thing. T h e s e c o n d is th a t t h e I n s p e c t o r G e n e r a l’s R e p o r t w h ic h w a s p a r t o f w h a t M r M o y a n e r e li e d o n h a s b e e n a n d I a m u s in g t h e w o r d lo o s e l y b o r r o w i n g f r o m t h e m e d i a d e c l a s s i fi e d . I d o n o t t h i n k i t is – i t 10 g o e s t h a t f a r b u t le t u s j u s t s a y a t l e a s t i t is i n th e p u b lic d o m a i n . N o w it is n o t p o s s i b l e fo r Mr M o y a n e C h a ir to c o n v i n c e y o u o r Mr G o r d h a n o r a n y b o d y th a t h e w a s a c ti n g b o n a f i d e w i t h o u t s a y i n g I r e li e d o n t h e S ik h a k h a n e R e p o r t . I r e l ie d o n t h e K P M G R e p o r t . I r e li e d o n t h e Kr o o n Report. I r e li e d o n t h e I G I – t h e I G I R e p o r t . A n d b y th e w a y th e s o c a l l e d N u g e n t R e p o r t f in a l N u g e n t R e p o r t t h a t i s n o w b e i n g u s e d o p p o r t u n is ti c a ll y d i d n o t e v e n e x is t . I t – t h e – M r M o y a n e h is c h a r g e s w e r e i n 2 0 1 5 . Mr G o r d h a n ’s e v id e n c e h e r e w a s in N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 8 a n d M r N u g e n t ’s f in a l r e p o r t w a s in D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 8 . So when you are s i tt i n g h e r e y o u c o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n m o tiv a t e d b y a n y th i n g t h a t M r 20 N u g e n t s a i d . A n d t h a t i s w h y C h a ir I a m a l m o s t g e tt i n g i n t o m y s e c o n d a r g u m e n t . T h a t is w h y w e s a y t h e – i t is a r e d h e r r i n g t h i s w h o l e t h i n g o f th e N u g e n t C o m m i s s i o n a n d th e C h a i r s h o u l d g iv e t h e L e a v e t o C r o s s - e x a m i n e w i t h o u t a n y r e g a r d to w h a t e v e r is i n t h e N u g e n t C o m m i s s i o n . A n d t h e r e a s o n – w e h a v e o u tli n e d f o u r r e a s o n s w h y t h a t is s o C h a ir. O n e is t h a t – w e s a y th e a c t u a l ly t h i s s u g g e s ti o n i s Page 18 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 m o t iv a t e d b y w h a t w e c a ll p e r ju r y o n th e p a r t o f Mr G o r d h a n . B e c a u s e M r G o r d h a n th e C h a ir w a s c o r r e c t in h is s u m m a r y o f t h e – i n t h e r u li n g t h a t M r G o r d h a n a c t u a ll y s a y s th a t a t p a g e 3 9 9 i n h is a ffi d a v i t “ M o r e i m p o r t a n t f o r th e p u r p o s e s o f t h is a p p lic a ti o n t h e N u g e n t C o m m i s s io n s p e c i f ic a l ly fo u n d t h a t t h e s o called rogue unit was l a w f u l ly e s ta b l is h e d and r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t i t s o u g h t t o b e r e - e s t a b lis h e d . ” Then later it says: “ I t i s i n s tr u c ti v e t o c o n s i d e r h o w e m p h a tic t h e N u g e n t C o m m i s s i o n w a s a b o u t th e le g a l i ty a n d t h e – o f th e 10 e s t a b li s h o f t h e s o c a ll e d r o g u e u n i t . ” N o w C h a ir I w i ll n o t b o r e y o u w i t h r e a d i n g i t o u t b u t I w il l r e f e r y o u t o w h a t J u s t ic e N u g e n t s a y s i n t h e i n te r i m r e p o r t w h i c h d id e x is t a t p a g e 2 4 5 t o 6 o f t h e s e p a p e r s a n d I w il l a l s o r e f e r y o u t o w h a t h e s a y s in t h e r u l i n g o n h is r e c u s a l o r r a t h e r t h e r e c u s a l – ja – o f M r K a tz a t p a g e 4 4 2 a n d t h e n I w il l a ls o r e fe r y o u f o r w h a t it is w o r t h e v e n t h o u g h th e s e q u e n c e d o e s n o t w o r k t o w h a t h e s a y s i n t h e fi n a l r e p o r t a t p a g e 4 6 7 a n d 5 3 0 . A n d I w i ll p a r a p h r a s e . If t h e C h a ir g o e s t o th o s e p a s s a g e s y o u w il l s e e t h a t J u s t ic e N u g e n t s a y s t h e f o l lo w in g : “ T h e r e h a v e b e e n e ff o r ts b y p e o p l e … ” 20 He says: “ … i n c lu d in g M r M o y a n e t o b r i n g t h i s r o g u e u n it t h i n g t o t h is C o m m is s i o n . I - I w i ll n o t b e s id e - tr a c k e d o r d e v i a t e d … ” I th in k is t h e w o r d h e u s e d . Page 19 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 “ … i n to in v e s ti g a t i n g t h a t i s s u e . ” Three: he says: “ I f a n y b o d y f o u n d a n y u n la w f u l n e s s … ” In fact he says: “There may have been u n la w f u l n e s s in th e o p e r a ti o n o f … ” He says: “ … a b o u t s ix p e o p l e i n t h e r o g u e u n i t. ” A n d t h e n f o u r th ly h e s a y s : 10 “ I f a n y b o d y fo u n d - f i n d s t h a t t h e r e w a s s u c h u n l a w f u l n e s s . T h e y m u s t g o t o t h e a u t h o r i ti e s . ” A - a v e r y g o o d a p p r o a c h b y J u s t ic e - i n o t h e r w o r d s h e is s a y in g t h is is n o t r e l e v a n t t o m y C o m m is s i o n . I am not going to in v e s t i g a t e i t a n d I a m n o t g o in g t o b e w a y la i d in t o i n v e s ti g a t i n g i t a n d t h e r e m a y o r m a y n o t h a v e b e e n l a w f u ln e s s a n d i f th e r e i s s u c h it m u s t b e t a k e n to - t o - s o t o s a y u n d e r o a th t h a t h e f o u n d i t t o b e la w f u l is a c t u a ll y - i t is ju s t ly in g . I t is - it is u n tr u e b e c a u s e h e c o u ld . When he says it is ir r e l e v a n t I a m n o t g o i n g t o i n v e s t ig a t e i t t h e n h o w c o u l d h e h a v e f o u n d 20 it t o b e l a w fu l a n d w h e n h e e v e n s a y s t h e r e m i g h t b e u n l a w f u ln e s s a s s o c i a t e d w it h i t b u t it m u s t g o to th e a u t h o r i ti e s ? S o w h a t w e s a y i s t h a t t h e - th e a l le g a ti o n b y Mr G o r d h a n t h a t M r - t h a t J u d g e N u g e n t f o u n d t h e r o g u e u n i t to b e l a w f u l is fa ls e , o n e . T h e n w e s a y e v e n i f i t w a s n o t fa ls e t h a t f in d i n g - l e t - le t u s a s s u m e J u d g e N u g e n t m a k e - m a d e s u c h a f in d in g . Page 20 of 182 Th a t f in d in g is - 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 c a n n o t o v e r c o m e th e f o u r - r e m e m b e r w e a r e d e a li n g w i t h M r M o y a n e ’s s t a te of mind. Mr Moyane could not have been m o ti v a t e d or d e m o t iv a te d b y th e N u g e n t r e p o r t o f 2 0 1 8 i n 2 0 1 5 . R i g h t ? W h a t d i d m o t iv a te h i m w a s t h e S ik h a k h a n e r e p o r t w h ic h s a y s s p e c i f ic a l ly a t p a r a g r a p h - a t p a g e 2 - 0 - 8 th a t: “ T h e e s t a b l is h m e n t o f t h e u n it is u n la w f u l . ” I t s a y s s o a t - a t p a g e 2 - 0 - 8 . W h a t a ls o m o tiv a t e d M r M o y a n e is t h e In s p e c t o r - G e n e r a l ’s r e p o r t w h ic h s a y s t h a t : “ N o t o n ly is th e r o g u e u n i t u n l a w f u l b u t M r G o r d h a n m u s t b e c h a r g e d c r i m i n a l ly. ” 10 N o w t h i s i s t h e p o i n t C h a ir p e r s o n . Now you or I or M r Pr e to r i u s o r a n y b o d y is t h e C o m m i s s io n e r o f - o f S A R S s it t in g th e r e . Yo u h a v e a r e p o r t fr o m a n i n d e p e n d e n t s e n i o r C o u n s e l t h a t s a y t h e thing is u n la w f u l . Yo u have access to a report fr o m th e Inspector-General. A n i n d e p e n d e n t o ffic e a s w e l l o f s o m e s o r t w h ic h s a y s M r G o r d h a n m u s t b e c h a r g e d c r i m i n a l ly. Yo u s h o u ld b e f ir e d y o u d o n o t t h e n t a k e i t t o t h e p o l ic e a n d - a n d r e p o r t i t w h ic h is a l l h e d id . W h a t is w o r s e is th a t th a t is a c t u a ll y w h a t J u d g e N u g e n t s a y s a t 5 3 0 . Th e - th e 20 s a m e J u d g e N u g e n t t h a t t h e y r e ly o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t t h a t - t h a t g o e s n o w … ADV DALI MPOFU: I am … C H A I R P E R S O N : To th e m e r i ts o f w h e t h e r o r n o t h e a c te d m a lic i o u s ly w h ic h - w h ic h b e l o n g s d o w n t h e li n e . A D V D A L I M P O F U : N o , n o , n o C h a ir. Page 21 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : It g o e s t o th e s e c o n d q u e s t io n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV DALI MPOFU: W h ic h is w h e t h e r t h e C h a ir s h o u ld g iv e t h e - should grant - if you grant the … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : C o n d i ti o n a ll y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV DALI MPOFU: 10 M y p o i n t is t h a t t h e r e i s n o r o o m f o r t h e C h a ir t o s a y I w il l g r a n t y o u c o n d i t io n a l ly. Yo u m u s t a d d r e s s w h a t h a p p e n e d i n N u g e n t . W it h N u g e n t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : J u s ti c e N u g e n t - s o r r y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Is c o m p l e t e ly ir r e l e v a n t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : To t h is q u e s ti o n o f … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : O f m a l ic e . I n o t h e r w o r d s th e C h a i r … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : W h a t I a m r e a ll y m o t iv a te d fo r … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Is w h a t w e s a i d i n o u r l e t te r a s o p t i o n t h r e e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : N a m e ly t o d e l in k … Page 22 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h e - t h e l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a mi n e … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Fr o m t h e … CHAIRPERSON: The Nugent report. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Fr o m w h a t e v e r s a i d … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV DALI MPOFU: Was said and - and the - the final point I was m a k i n g in t h a t r e s p e c t C h a i r … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Is th a t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : To - t o c r o w n i t a l l … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: Mr M o y a n e d id e x a c tl y w h a t J u s t ic e N u g e n t s a i d about three or four times. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Th a t i f a n y b o d y h a s a n y i n f o r m a t io n th e y m u s t g o t o t h e a u th o r i ti e s . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : H e w a n t e d t h e a u th o r i ti e s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h e p o l ic e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV DALI MPOFU: So how on earth can - can … Page 23 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : If - i f - t h e C h a ir … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: A t t h e e n d o f i t a l l is t h e n l e f t w i t h t h e s e tw o versions. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: H o w - h o w c a n th e C h a i r n o t b e c o n v i n c e d o r r a th e r a t l e a s t t h e r e b e n o g r o u n d s f o r c r o s s - e x a mi n a ti o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 A D V D A L I M P O F U : To e s t a b li s h … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h e f a c t th a t th e r e a r e th e s e fo u r r e p o r t s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : W h ic h w e r e o p e r a ti n g in M r … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : M o y a n e ’s m i n d … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d t h e r e f o r e t h a t Mr G o r d h a n is w r o n g … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 A D V D A L I M P O F U : O r - o r ly i n g t h a t h e w a s m o ti v a t e d b y m a li c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV DALI MPOFU: F o r w h a t is - I a m n o t n o w o b v i o u s ly t h a t w il l b e a r g u e d a t th e e n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a . A D V D A L I M P O F U : A f te r t h e c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n . Page 24 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Al l I a m s a y i n g n o w is th a t … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV DALI MPOFU: Th a t if - th e r e i s - t h e r e is - t h e r e c a n n e v e r b e more ground for - for cross-examination than that. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Yo u s e e if w e - i f w e - t h a t is w h y - I s a i d e a r l i e r o n i f i n h is c l a r i fic a t o r y a ffi d a v i t M r M o y a n e h a d s to p p e d … A D V D A L I M P O F U : Mr G o r d h a n . CHAIRPERSON: 10 Mr G o r d h a n , j a h a d s t o p p e d - I a m s o r r y - h a d s t o p p e d o n s a y i n g I d o n o t k n o w w h a t w a s i n M r M o y a n e ’s m i n d w h e n h e la i d c h a r g e s … A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d - a n d I a m n o t s a y in g h e a c te d m a lic io u s ly … A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d if h e h a d s to p p e d … ADV DALI MPOFU: Stopped. C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e r e t h e n it s e e m s t o m e th a t t h a t w o u l d a m o u n t t o s a y in g well there is therefore no is s u e that Mr M o y a n e a c te d m a lic i o u s ly a n d t h e r e f o r e th e r e is n o n e e d f o r - t o g r a n t l e a v e t o c r o s s 20 e x a m in e . A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h a t is c o r r e c t . I … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e , b u t t h e p r o b l e m i s t h a t h e w e n t f u r t h e r … ADV DALI MPOFU: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: A n d h e s a y s a l t h o u g h I s a y w h a t I h a v e s a id a b o u t m a lic e I d o b e li e v e o r w h a t I d o m e a n is t h a t M r M o y a n e a b u s e d th e Page 25 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 le g a l p r o c e s s a n d h e a b u s e d i t … A D V D A L I M P O F U : In t h e a d v a n c e m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : I n fu r t h e r a n c e o f t h e a g e n d a o f S t a t e C a p tu r e . T h a t t h a t i s t h e p a r t t h a t c o m p li c a t e s t h i n g s . W e ll y o u m i g h t s a y i t d o e s n o t c o m p lic a t e t h in g s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : It s i m p li f ie s t h i n g s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m i g h t s a y i t s i m p li f i e s . I m e a n fr o m t h e q u e s t io n o f p r in c i p l e a s I s a i d y o u k n o w o n c e y o u s a y th a t fo r m e t h e i n c li n a t io n is 10 to grant leave provided o th e r r e q u ir e m e n ts for leave to c r o s s - e x a m in e a r e m e t … ADV DALI MPOFU: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: B u t o f c o u r s e h e - h e is n o t in h is c l a r i fic a t o r y a ffi d a v i t h e d o e s n o t s a y i t i s b e c a u s e o f A , B , C , D th a t I a m s a y i n g . ADV DALI MPOFU: He does. CHAIRPERSON: H e s a y s it i s b e c a u s e o f t h e s e f in d i n g s t h a t h a v e b e e n m a d e . N o w t h o s e f in d in g s th a t h a v e b e e n m a d e h a v e b e e n m a d e o n t h e b a s is o f e v i d e n c e b e f o r e t h e C o m m is s io n t h a t C o m m i s s i o n o r o n t h e b a s is o f w h a t e v e r m a t e r i a l a n d th e n t h e r e is t h e c o n c e r n a ls o w h e t h e r o n e d o e s n o t t h e n e n d u p - o p e n u p th e w h o l e in q u ir y t h a t w a s 20 b e f o r e J u s ti c e N u g e n t. ADV DALI MPOFU: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u k n o w b u t a t th e s a m e ti m e I c a n n o t m a k e a fi n d i n g t h a t a n y b o d y o r l e t m e n o t s a y a n y b o d y. I cannot make a fi n d i n g th a t M r M o y a n e a c te d in f u r t h e r a n c e o f th e a g e n d a o f S t a t e Capture and say - make that fi n d i n g Page 26 of 182 on the b a s is of what 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 J u s t ic e N u g e n t fo u n d … ADV DALI MPOFU: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: W i th o u t my o w n e v a l u a ti o n o f t h e b a s is a n d t h e evidence for that. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: S o t h a t c r e a te s th e p r o b l e m b e c a u s e - s o - s o y o u might … ADV DALI MPOFU: Chair … C H A I R P E R S O N : W a n t t o s a y s o m e t h i n g a b o u t th a t . 10 A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . N o C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: N o w i f I w e r e to - i f w e w e r e - I t h i n k p a r t - y o u r - y o u r o p ti o n t h r e e I t h i n k . I t s e e m s t o m e i f o n e w e r e to c o n fi n e t h e t h e - c o n f i n e o n e s e l f t o th e is s u e o f m a l ic e w i t h o u t t h is is s u e o f S t a t e C a p t u r e . I t s e e m s to m e t h a t - t h a t is o n e a r e a b u t o n c e y o u - y o u g o t o t h e q u e s t io n o f s a y in g d i d M r M o y a n e a c t i n fu r th e r a n c e o f t h e agenda of State Capture. I t s e e ms t h a t th e r e i s a r is k t h a t o n e is o p e n i n g u p to o m a n y th i n g s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : N o C h a ir. O k a y. L e t m e tr y … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 20 ADV DALI MPOFU: Again. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV DALI MPOFU: The point I am making Chair … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Is th a t th e r e is n o c o n n e c ti o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 27 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 A D V D A L I M P O F U : B e t w e e n M r G o r d h a n ’s e v id e n c e h e r e … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV DALI MPOFU: And whatever Judge Nugent found. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : If i t w a s tr u e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d n o t f a l s e a n d n o t a li e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV DALI MPOFU: 10 That Judge Nugent had found that the rogue unit was lawful … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV DALI MPOFU: A n d t h e r e f o r e t h a t t h e n m o tiv a t e d M r G o r d h a n ’s evidence. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h e n t h e C h a ir w o u l d b e r i g h t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h e C h a ir o b v i o u s l y w o u l d s a y w e l l … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : I f - i f i t is b a s e d o n th is b u t i f t h a t p r e m i s e is f a l s e 20 t h e n w h a t h a s i t g o t t o d o w i th J u d g e N u g e n t o v e r th e v e r s i o n o f Mr Moyane and Nugent because …? C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u r a r g u m e n t - i s y o u r a r g u m e n t th is ? T h a t w h e n - w h e n M r G o r d h a n ’s f il e d h is o r i g i n a l a ffi d a v i t t h e r e w a s n o - t h e r e w e r e n o f in d i n g s b y t h e N u g e n t C o m m is s i o n a n d w h e n h e g a v e e v i d e n c e b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s i o n . T h e r e w e r e n o f i n d in g s - t h e r e w a s Page 28 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 n o f in a l r e p o r t. I m a y b e g e tt i n g t h e f a c ts … ADV DALI MPOFU: No, no. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e t i mi n g w r o n g . ADV DALI MPOFU: Chair let me … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : M a k e i t e a s y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : In li f e … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 10 A D V D A L I M P O F U : U n t il to d a y … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Th e r e h a s n e v e r b e e n a f i n d i n g o n th e l a w f u ln e s s o f t h e r o g u e u n i t b y J u d g e N u g e n t . W h e t h e r i t i s n o t t h e s ta n d a r d … C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o . N o , n o I a m n o t t a lk in g a b o u t t h e r o g u e u n i t . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: I a m n o t ta lk in g a b o u t t h e r o g u e u n i t . I am talking a b o u t t h e f i n d in g s t o w h ic h h e r e f e r s i n t h e c la r i fi c a t o r y a ffi d a v i t . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 ADV DALI MPOFU: N o w I a m s a y i n g - w e l l th e - t h o s e fi n d i n g s m u s t fir s t e x is t C h a ir … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : F o r y o u t o r e f e r to t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV DALI MPOFU: T h e y d o n o t e x is t . Judge Nugent says I am not Page 29 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 g o i n g t o i n v e s ti g a te t h is is s u e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : W h a t i s t h a t is s u e ? I t is t h e is s u e t h a t M r M o y a n e w e n t to r e p o r t t o th e p o lic e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: I n r e s p e c t - i n r e s p e c t o f w h ic h Mr G o r d h a n s a y s h e w a s m o ti v a t e d b y S t a t e C a p tu r e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : S o i t i s li k e s a y i n g - i f I c a n s a y I w a s m o ti v a t e d b y 10 the Bible … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: A n d y o u f in d th a t t h a t t h i n g is n o t th e r e . Th e n t h e r e i s n o - y o u c a n n o t t h e n s a y o h w e l l I w a n t y o u r v e r s io n o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : O n a n o n - e x is t e n t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Pr e m is e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : S o t h e - t h e c o n n e c t - t h e c o n n e c t io n b e t w e e n th e 20 a l le g a ti o n o f Mr M o y a n e ’s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : S t a te C a p t u r e m o tiv e s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d t h e N u g e n t C o m m is s io n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 30 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 A D V D A L I M P O F U : Is fa ls e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : B ig f a l s e , fa ls e , f a ls e . It is - i t i s m a n u f a c t u r e d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : F o r th e r e a s o n t h a t a , J u d g e N u g e n t d id n o t m a k e s u c h a f in d in g . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: C o u ld n o t m a k e s u c h a fi n d i n g h a v i n g s a i d i t w a s ir r e l e v a n t . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : B , th e fi n a l r e p o r t o n l y c a m e a f te r M r G o r d h a n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Te s t i fi e d h e r e . S o i f t h o s e r e a s o n s a r e n o t e n o u g h t o s h o w th a t t h e tw o th i n g s a r e n o t c o n n e c t e d … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : W h a t s o e v e r. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h e n n o t h i n g e v e r w il l b e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 A D V D A L I M P O F U : N o w i f t h e t w o t h i n g s a r e n o t c o n n e c te d … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Th e n t h e C h a ir i s a t l ib e r ty - i f t h e C h a ir i s s t il l o f t h e p r i m a f a c ie v i e w … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h a t t h e r e is a n a l le g a ti o n o f S t a t e C a p t u r e . Page 31 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : W h a t w e a r e s a y in g is t h a t t h e C h a ir is a t li b e r t y t o g r a n t l e a v e to … CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. A D V D A L I M P O F U : To c r o s s - e x a m in e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: Here and now or … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A f te r c o n s i d e r a ti o n … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: Of - of … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : O f o u r a r g u m e n ts … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d i f th a t is s o t h e n t h e th ir d q u e s ti o n t h a t a r i s e s w h a t th e C h a ir h a s c o r r e c t ly i d e n t i fi e d . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. A D V D A L I M P O F U : O f c i r c u ms c r i b in g th e p a r a m e t e r s o f … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 A D V D A L I M P O F U : O f t h a t c r o s s - e x a m i n a ti o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: A n d t h a t b y t h e w a y is a ls o n o t a m e c h a n ic a l process. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Yo u r e m e m b e r w h e n w e a r g u e d e a r l ie r … Page 32 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : W e s a i d th a t i s w h a t t h e C h a ir i s h e r e f o r. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: T h e r e a s o n a J u d g e is a p p o in t e d to c h a ir t h e Commission … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Is b e c a u s e i n c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: Of course Counsel might ask and … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d t h e n C h a ir w il l s a y n o … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Mr M p o f u n o w. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h i s - t h i s is b e y o n d t h e s c o p e o f … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV DALI MPOFU: What we agreed and so on. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : S o y o u c a n n o t c ir c u m s c r i b e … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : It m e c h a n i c a ll y … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: B e c a u s e t h i s - t h e s e i s s u e s a r e i n te r t w in e d b u t o b v i o u s l y i t w il l a ls o b e th e d u t y o f C o u n s e l … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 33 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 A D V D A L I M P O F U : To n o t t h r o u g h t h e b a c k d o o r s o t o s p e a k … C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . To t r y a n d b r i n g t h i n g s , j a . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Br i n g o th e r is s u e s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Th a t i n r e s p e c t o f w h i c h t h e r e - t h e r e is s t il l s o m e d is p u te … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : In a n o t h e r c o u r t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 10 ADV DALI MPOFU: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: But that … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Is n o t s o m e t h i n g y o u c a n l e g is la t e n o w. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h e - t h e o n l y q u e s ti o n n o w … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : F o r t h e C h a ir is d o e s M r G o r d h a n i m p l ic a te … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 A D V D A L I M P O F U : Mr M o y a n e i n S t a te C a p t u r e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : O b v i o u s ly y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Is i t n e c e s s a r y f o r Mr M o y a n e to c le a r h is n a m e in t h a t r e s p e c t? Page 34 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : O b v i o u s ly y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: Is it in the i n te r e s t of the State Capture Commission … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: To k n o w w h e t h e r M r M o y a n e is fu r t h e r i n g S t a t e Capture or not? CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 A D V D A L I M P O F U : O b v i o u s ly y e s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: And if those … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: Three yeses are existent … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h e n le a v e to c r o s s - e x a m i n e m u s t b e g r a n te d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : O b v i o u s ly i t i s i n t h e d is c r e ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 ADV DALI MPOFU: We - we understand that … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d I w a n t to c l a r i fy o n e t h i n g C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : To p r e - e m p t m y - M r - M s L e R o u x m i g h t s a y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 35 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 A D V D A L I M P O F U : I s a i d t h is t h e l a s t ti m e b u t i n t h e r u l in g m a y b e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: I t lo o k e d l ik e i t w a s n o t c l e a r w h a t I w a s s a y i n g . We accept … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : U n r e s e r v e d ly … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h a t t h e r e is n o r ig h t t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. No, you did … 10 A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . I d i d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d m a k e t h a t c l e a r, ja . A D V D A L I M P O F U : B u t w h a t w e d o n o t a c c e p t i s th a t t h e r e m i g h t n o t b e a r i g h t t o c r o s s - e x a m in e b u t th e r e i s a r ig h t t o fa ir n e s s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O f c o u r s e , j a . ADV DALI MPOFU: A n d t h a t r i g h t to f a i r n e s s w it h r e s p e c t d o e s n o t e v e n b e l o n g t o y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O f c o u r s e , ja . A D V D A L I M P O F U : It c o m e s fr o m t h e C o n s t it u ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Hm. Ja. 20 A D V D A L I M P O F U : S o w h a t w e d e m a n d h e r e is f a ir n e s s a n d f a c t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : S o th e - th e l i n k a g e b e tw e e n c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d f a ir n e s s I d o n o t h a v e t o … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 36 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 A D V D A L I M P O F U : M a k e th a t p o in t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : S o w e in s is t o n o u r r i g h t t o f a i r n e s s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : In o th e r w o r d s Mr M o y a n e c a n n o t b e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: Somebody cannot com e here … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d s a y M r M o y a n e is a S t a t e C a p tu r e r. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: And then that person is immunised … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Fr o m b e i n g q u e s t i o n e d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: I mean what is that? C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e o n l y - t h e o n ly is s u e a s I - a s I s e e it o n c e y o u h a v e t h a t s i t u a t i o n i s w h e t h e r M r M o y a n e m e e t s t h e o th e r - w h a t e v e r o th e r r e q u ir e m e n t s f o r le a v e to c r o s s - e x a m in e ? J a . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . T h a t is w h a t I h a v e j u s t 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . ADV DALI MPOFU: Sneaked into my … C H A I R P E R S O N : W e - w e - ja , j a . ADV DALI MPOFU: My last sentence. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : In o th e r w o r d s … Page 37 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h e c r i t e r ia … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : C h a i r w il l r e m e m b e r i n 3 . 3 . Is t h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h w e h a v e d e a l t w i th . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : It - i t m u s t b e n e c e s s a r y … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h e C h a ir m u s t fi n d o u t i t is n e c e s s a r y … CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d t h a t it is … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : It is i n th e i n t e r e s t o r … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : F u r th e r s t h e o b j e c t iv e s o f t h e C o m m i s s io n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : W o r d s t o t h a t e ff e c t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h o s e c r i t e r ia a r e - a r e c l e a r l y … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: T h e r e m y - C h a i r p e r s o n b e c a u s e i t is i m p l ic a ti o n . W e k n o w t h a t i t is i m p l ic a t e - h e is i m p li c a t e d … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d th e n - a n d t h e n a s f a r a s h is v e r s i o n w h ic h i s Page 38 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 r e a l ly th e i s s u e t h a t w e h a v e b e e n d e b a ti n g … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Is c o n c e r n e d . T h a t v e r s i o n C h a ir … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Is c o n t a in e d a m p ly i n - i n t h e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : In h i s a ff id a v i t. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : It w a s i n th e - i n t h e e x p l a n a t i o n o f t h a t v e r s i o n . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h a t w e r e f e r r e d i n t h e f ir s t p l a c e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : To S ik h a k h a n e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : W e r e fe r r e d to K P M G . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : W e r e fe r r e d to K r o o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : W e r e fe r r e d to I G I . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: O b v i o u s l y w e c o u l d n o t r e f e r t h e n t o t h e P u b l ic Protector … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : B e c a u s e a g a i n i t - i t d id n o t e x is t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 39 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 ADV DALI MPOFU: But now we can say that … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : O n t o p o f th a t - s o th e r e a r e fi v e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : In d e p e n d e n t r e p o r ts t h a t h a v e f o u n d t h e r o g u e u n i t t o e x is t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: A n d th e w o r s t o n e o f t h e m f i n d s i t - fi n d s th a t M r G o r d h a n is - i s c r i m i n a l ly … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : R e s p o n s i b le … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: Th e r e o f . R ig h tl y o r w r o n g ly. T h a t - th a t m a y b e d e b a te d i n o t h e r fo r u m s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h e p o i n t h e r e i s t h a t a C o m m i s s io n o f S A R S f a c e d w i t h t h e s e r e p o r ts … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : F o r - l e t u s t a k e o u t t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : W h ic h s a y t h e r e is c r i m i n a li ty. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : W o u l d - w o u l d - i f - w h e n h e g o e s t o t h e p o l ic e c a n - i s h e m o ti v a t e d b y S t a t e C a p tu r e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 40 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 A D V D A L I M P O F U : As a l le g e d o r is h e m o ti v a t e d b y … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : H is d u t y … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV DALI MPOFU: B u t t h a t is r e a lly t h e o n l y - t h e o n ly is s u e a n d i f Mr Moyane succeeds … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : To c l e a r h i s n a m e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 ADV DALI MPOFU: By - by - th r o u g h th e c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n e s t a b li s h in g th a t h e w a s m o tiv a t e d … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: By good governance. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: Then that is the end of it. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : If M r G o r d h a n o r i f M r M o y a n e f a i ls … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d M r G o r d h a n ’s v i e w t h a t h e i s … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ac t u a ll y w a s m o t iv a te d b y S t a t e C a p tu r e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h a t is a ls o w e ll a n d g o o d . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Thank you. A D V D A L I M P O F U : S o - s o C h a ir t o r o u n d i t o ff. Page 41 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV DALI MPOFU: The - the … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r fi r s t p r iz e is o p ti o n t h r e e ? A D V D A L I M P O F U : M y f ir s t p r i z e is o p ti o n th r e e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : If - i f … C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i f I d o n o t g r a n t o p ti o n t h r e e … A D V D A L I M P O F U : If y o u d o n o t g r a n t o p t io n th r e e … CHAIRPERSON: Then … 10 A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h e n o p t io n t w o . CHAIRPERSON: Option two. A D V D A L I M P O F U : O p t i o n t w o C h a ir, y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y, o k a y. A D V D A L I M P O F U : B e c a u s e i t is v e r y i m p o r t a n t C h a ir. I d o n o t w a n t t o g o i n to s o m e o f t h e b r o a d e r is s u e s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: B u t y o u k n o w t h e - th e - th is C o m m i s s i o n is w a t c h e d b y e v e r y b o d y o u t th e r e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d t h e is s u e o f f a ir n e s s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Is - i s r e a l ly c e n tr a l to th is … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d t h e C h a ir m a y o r m a y n o t k n o w t h a t t h e r e w a s a g e n e r a l o u tc r y … Page 42 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A f te r t h e f ir s t r u l in g . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : R i g h t ly o r w r o n g ly … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV DALI MPOFU: B u t t h e p o i n t is t h a t t h e - th e - s o m e o f i t w a s u n i fo r m e d b u t - b u t C h a ir t h e p o in t is t h a t r e a l ly t h is a n d - a n d I m u s t c o m m e n d t h e C h a ir t o h a v e i s o l a te d t h i s i s s u e . N o t t h a t I a g r e e o n t h e o th e r i s s u e s . I - I s tr o n g ly d is a g r e e . I - I a m … 10 CHAIRPERSON: I know you disagree. A D V D A L I M P O F U : I d is a g r e e w i t h t h e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Vi g o r o u s ly. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s v ig o r o u s l y a s t h e la w y e r s s a y. I e v e n d is a g r e e on the test … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h a t t h e C h a ir a p p l i e d b u t th a t i s … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A d e b a t e fo r a n o t h e r d a y … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 20 A D V D A L I M P O F U : B u t a t le a s t h e r e t h e C h a ir t o y o u r c r e d i t id e n ti fi e d a n is s u e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : W h ic h w a s t h e c l e a r e s t - th e o n e i n y o u r z o n e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: Because if someone is accused of State Capture … Page 43 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : It is n o t l ik e th e s e o t h e r o n e s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h a t m i g h t b e i n d ir e c t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : N o w e h a d a fi g h t in s o m e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : P la c e . T h i s o n e is li t e r a l ly … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 A D V D A L I M P O F U : In y o u r - i n y o u r p r o v i n c e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d w i th th e g r e a t e s t r e s p e c t C h a ir th e n o ti o n t h a t t h e r e a r e p e o p le w h o a r e b e y o n d c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : M u s t b e d i s p e ll e d … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : B e c a u s e a s M r M o y a n e s a y s i n h is a ffi d a v it … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: 20 T h e r o o t o f t h is p r o b le m is t h i s n o ti o n t h a t th e r e a r e a n g e ls a n d d e v il s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: And that there are people who are State Capturers … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d o th e r s a r e n o t . Page 44 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: T h is C o m m i s s io n - t h e r e e x p e r i e n c e i n t h is Commission … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: Has shown that that … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: Theory … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : If y o u ta lk a b o u t Mr N e n e … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: Bosasa … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: Even Ms Munusamy … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Al l th e s o c a l le d a n g e l s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ar e n o t a s - a s p u r e a s - a s s n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV DALI MPOFU: 20 S o it m u s t - th e r e m u s t n e v e r b e a m e s s a g e t h a t s a y s M r G o r d h a n is a b o v e t h e la w. CHAIRPERSON: No. I think … A D V D A L I M P O F U : If a n y b o d y i m p l ic a te s M r M o y a n e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : W h e t h e r i t i s M r G o r d h a n o r my ju n io r t h e y m u s t … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 45 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 ADV DALI MPOFU: Face the music. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o . I th in k y o u - y o u - w e ll I w o u l d h o p e t h a t n o b o d y d o u b ts o u r c o m m i t m e n t … ADV DALI MPOFU: No. C H A I R P E R S O N : To f a ir n e s s . ADV DALI MPOFU: I can raise my hand. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t d o e s n o t m e a n th a t e v e r y b o d y w il l a l w a y s a g r e e t h a t d e c is i o n s w e m a k e a r e f a ir a n d w e a c c e p t t h a t . ADV DALI MPOFU: Ja. 10 CHAIRPERSON: T h e r e w il l b e ti m e s w h e n p e o p le d is a g r e e . W h a t is i m p o r t a n t i s t h a t f r o m c e r t a i n ly m y s i d e t h a t I d o m y b e s t to s h o w f a ir n e s s t o e v e r y b o d y w i th i n t h e c o n s tr a i n t s o f ti m e a n d o t h e r r e s o u r c e s t h a t w e h a v e a n d w i th in t h e c o n s tr a i n ts o f t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n a n d th e l a w b u t a ls o to a c c e p t t h a t i t i s fi n e fo r p e o p l e s o m e t i m e t o d is a g r e e a n d to t h i n k d i ff e r e n t ly b u t a s l o n g a s p e o p le t h r o u g h o u t a c c e p t t h a t w h a t e v e r d e c is i o n s a r e m a d e t h e y a r e m a d e i n g o o d f a i t h … A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A n d i f th e r e i s a d e c is i o n t h e y - t h e y a r e n o t h a p p y w i t h i t i s n o t b e c a u s e o f a n y t h i n g . I t is s i m p ly b e c a u s e w e s e e t h i n g s 20 in a p a r ti c u l a r w a y. T h e y s e e t h i n g s i n a c e r ta i n w a y … A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: B u t w e - w e a r e c o m m i t te d t o d o o u r b e s t to m a k e s u r e t h e r e is f a ir n e s s . A s I h a v e s a i d b e fo r e i t d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r i ly m e a n th a t w e w il l s e e k to m e e t a n y p a r ti c u la r p e r s o n ’s n o t i o n o f f a ir n e s s . Page 46 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 ADV DALI MPOFU: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: I t m e a n s t h a t w e w il l s e e k t o e n s u r e fa ir n e s s a s w e u n d e r s t a n d it . As w e b e l i e v e m o s t p e o p l e w o u ld u n d e r s t a n d i t … A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: But we accept that … ADV DALI MPOFU: Chair … CHAIRPERSON: W e w il l - w e m a y m a k e m i s ta k e s o r w e m a y b e c r i ti c is e d a n d t h a t - t h a t is fi n e . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV DALI MPOFU: Chair for what it is worth … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : S p e a k i n g f o r m y s e l f I - I a c c e p t t h a t u n r e s e r v e d ly … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d C h a ir a s y o u c o r r e c tl y s a y I t h i n k t h e r e is a ls o a - a m is c o n c e p ti o n a b o u t th e r o l e o f C o m m is s i o n s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d t h a t is w h y C o m m is s io n s u n li k e J u d g e s … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Yo u a r e n o t s i t ti n g t h e r e a s a J u d g e a s s u c h . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Al t h o u g h w e b e n e fi t fr o m … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h a t o ffi c e . Page 47 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV DALI MPOFU: A n d t h a t i s w h y I s a y w e h a v e in s t r u c t i o n s t o r e v ie w y o u r … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Yo u r r u li n g … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : B e c a u s e u n l ik e a ju d g m e n t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : W e - C o m m i s s i o n s ’ f in d i n g s … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : C a n b e - c a n b e r e v ie w e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d i t m a y b e c o n f ir m e d o r i t m i g h t b e c h a n g e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : O r n o t a n d i t - it w ill n o t r e f le c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : It is p a r t o f t h e p r o c e s s . ADV DALI MPOFU: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV DALI MPOFU: And I can assure you … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV DALI MPOFU: Whatever grounds of review we have … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : N o n e o f t h e m w i ll b e b a d f a i t h o r u l te r i o r m o t iv e o r a n y th in g l ik e th a t . I t w i ll b e t h e … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 48 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 ADV DALI MPOFU: Usual … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h e u s u a l g r o u n d s o f - o f r e v i e w. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : W h il e I a m o n th a t s u b j e c t I m i g h t a s w e ll s a y t h a t w e a ls o h o ld in s tr u c ti o n s b e c a u s e a n o t h e r o f t h e fo u r r e a s o n s I w a n t e d t o r a is e w a s t h a t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : W h ic h is i n th e p a p e r s . O n e o f t h e r e a s o n s w h y I 10 s a y t h e C h a ir s h o u l d d i s c a r d t h e N u g e n t r e p o r t is b e c a u s e w e s a y in t h e - i n o u r a ff i d a v i t t h a t t h e w i t n e s s M r G o r d h a n h a d a n - a n i m p r o p e r m e e ti n g w i th J u d g e N u g e n t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : B e fo r e t h e - t h e C o m m is s i o n s t a r t e d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h a t is g o in g to b e s u b j e c t o f a c o m p l a in a n t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: T h a t my l e a r n e d - t h a t m y c li e n t is g o i n g t o l a y with … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h e J u d ic i a l S e r v i c e s C o m m i s s i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh, huh-uh. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A g a i n t h a t w ill t a k e i ts o w n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Process. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Pr o c e s s . Page 49 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : S a v e to s a y C h a ir th a t t h e - J u d g e N u g e n t a t p a g e 1 - 4 - 7 o r r a th e r n o t J u d g e N u g e n t. Mr Gordhan at page 1-4-7 does a d m i t t o th a t m e e ti n g ta k i n g p la c e i n h is o w n a ffi d a v it u n d e r o a th a n d he says: “The issue r e l a ti n g to my provision of the s u b s t a n t ia t in g a ffi d a v i t t o th e d is c i p l i n a r y in q u i r y a g a in s t M r M o y a n e o r th e f a c t t h a t … ” A n d t h is i s t h e i m p o r t a n t p a r t . “ … a p r e l i m in a r y m e e ti n g w a s h e l d b e tw e e n m y s e l f 10 a n d J u s ti c e N u g e n t a t h i s r e q u e s t b e f o r e t h e p u b lic h e a r in g s o f th e N u g e n t C o m m i s s i o n . ” S o th e - a g a in t h e J S E m i g h t f in d th a t h a t w a s p r o p e r o r n o t p r o p e r … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV DALI MPOFU: B u t m y p a r ti n g s h o t is j u s t i m a g i n e i f y o u C h a ir b e f o r e y o u s t a r te d t h is C o m m i s s i o n h a d h a d a p r e l i m in a r y m e e t i n g w it h M r Zu m a fo r e x a m p le a b o u t th e C o m m i s s io n . T h e r e w o u l d b e ju s ti fi a b l y a n o u t c r y. S o th e - th e s e a r e s o m e o f th e is s u e s w h ic h w i ll - w i ll b e v e n til a t e d b y t h e c o u r t o t h e a p p r o p r ia t e a u th o r it i e s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll - w e l l w h e n th e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t c a m e h e r e I - I am sorry … A D V D A L I M P O F U : S o r r y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O r l e t m e n o t s a y th is … ADV DALI MPOFU: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: B u t l e t m e s a y t h a t I h a v e h e a r d it s a i d t h a t m a y b e Page 50 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 before th e C o m m is s i o n s t a r te d the C o m m is s i o n should have a p p r o a c h e d th e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t … ADV DALI MPOFU: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: On the basis that he was a former Head of State and - a n d s o u g h t h is … A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h e p e r s o n w h o a p p o i n te d … C H A I R P E R S O N : A s s is t - a s s is t a n c e in t e r m s o f w h a t e v e r. ADV DALI MPOFU: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: 10 T h e C o m m i s s io n d id n o t d o s o a n d i t w a s - i t h a s b e e n c r it ic is e d … A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r n o t d o i n g s o … ADV DALI MPOFU: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: B u t f o r e x a m p l e I c a n s a y t h a t b e c a u s e t h is is a P r e s i d e n ti a l C o m m i s s i o n … ADV DALI MPOFU: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o m e e t w i t h th e c u r r e n t Pr e s id e n t … A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 20 Because in regard to certain needs C o m m i s s i o n I h a v e g o t t o t a lk to h i m … A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h e w il l a p p e a r h e r e a t s o m e s t a g e . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I - I j u s t m e n ti o n t h a t , h a . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . N o C h a ir t h a t - t h a t is - th a n k y o u . Page 51 of 182 of the 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV DALI MPOFU: I t h i n k t h a t h e lp s a ls o th e p u b li c a g a in t o understand some of the nuances. No, yes. CHAIRPERSON: Some of the nuances, yes. A D V D A L I M P O F U : C h a ir t h a t i s c o r r e c t . I m e a n I w a s i n t h e M a r i k a n a Commission. J u d g e F a r l a m m e t w i t h t h e p r e s id e n t a h u n d r e d t i m e s . T h a t is - th a t is n o t w h a t w e a r e c o m p la in i n g a b o u t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : I f Mr G o r d h a n w a s e i t h e r t h e Pr e s i d e n t o r e v e n th e 10 M i n is t e r o f Fi n a n c e a t th e t i m e t h e n th e m e e ti n g m i g h t h a v e b e e n e x p l a i n a b l e b u t h e h a d n o t h i n g - h e w a s ju s t a M i n i s te r o f C o o p e r a te G o v e r n a n c e a n d a w it n e s s - a k e y w it n e s s i n t h e - i n t h e C o m m is s i o n . S o t h e r e w a s n o q u e s ti o n a b o u t h a v i n g to m e e t a w it n e s s b e f o r e th e b u t a g a in t h o s e a r e a s I s a y t h o s e a r e i s s u e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : S o th e e x a m p l e o f - o f m e e ti n g f o r o ffic ia l r e a s o n s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: No that is acceptable. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 20 A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d i f p e o p l e s e e y o u w i th t h e Pr e s id e n t o n e d a y t h e y m u s t n o t r u s h a n d t h i n k t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g u n t o w a r d . CHAIRPERSON: Well then do not … ADV DALI MPOFU: That we accept. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u d o n o t y o u k n o w. O t h e r w is e if y o u d i d n o t s a y t h a t th e y w o u l d g o - th e y w o u ld s e e k y o u r - t h e y w o u l d b r i e f y o u . Page 52 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 A D V D A L I M P O F U : E x a c t ly. W e l l I w ill t a k e th e b r i e f . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ta k e t h e b r i e f . ADV DALI MPOFU: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I t h i n k … A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h a n k y o u s ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k t h a t is e n o u g h , j a . A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h o s e a r e o u r s u b m is s io n s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : In s h o r t . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Pr i m a fa c i e r e v i e w s t a n d s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV DALI MPOFU: And … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h e r e - t h e r e is n o - t h e d e a li n g c a g e … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d t h e r e f o r e t h e C h a ir is a t l a r g e t o g r a n t … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : To g r a n t t h e - t h e le a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : U n c o n d i ti o n a ll y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : W e l l I m e a n u n c o n d i ti o n a lly I m e a n … C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e b a s is o f t h e … A D V D A L I M P O F U : In r e la t io n to t h e N u g e n t is s u e … Page 53 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : B u t o b v io u s ly t h e C h a ir w il l a s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV DALI MPOFU: Well determine his own procedures. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o t h a t is fi n e . A D V D A L I M P O F U : As t h e C h a ir p l e a s e s . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll I h a v e e n d e d u p g iv i n g y o u m u c h m o r e t h a n I s h o u l d h a v e g iv e n y o u a n d M s L e R o u x … A D V D A L I M P O F U : C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . L e t m e h e a r M s L e R o u x . A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms L e R o u x y o u h a v e h e a r d e v e r y t h in g th a t … A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : In … C H A I R P E R S O N : I w a n t e d y o u t o b e a b le t o h e a r ? A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : In d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: A n d C h a i r l e t m e s t a r t w i th - w i t h t h e p r e l i mi n a r y fr a m i n g s u b m is s i o n a n d th e n a s u m m a r y o f w h e r e I t h i n k t h e d e b a te h a s g o t t e n t o t h is m o r n i n g a n d … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: Th e o p t io n s t h a t I t h i n k a r e a v a il a b l e t o y o u a n d w h y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: T h e f ir s t p o i n t t h a t h a s to b e m a d e a n d s tr e s s e d a g a i n i s t h a t M i n is t e r G o r d h a n a g r e e s th a t n o o n e is b e y o n d Page 54 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 s c r u t i n y a n d h e h a s n o t h in g t o h id e a n d i f it w il l a s s i s t t h e C o m m i s s i o n a n d i f y o u d e t e r m i n e t h a t i t is n e c e s s a r y a n d i n t h e i n te r e s t o f t h e f u n c t i o n o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n th a t h e r e t u r n e d to b e c r o s s - e x a m in e d h e w i ll o b v i o u s l y m a k e h i m s e l f a v a il a b l e . H i s o p p o s i ti o n t o t h i s a p p li c a t i o n o n l e g a l a d v ic e i s n o t t o b e u n d e r s t o o d a s a n y t h in g b u t th a t a n d h e is e n tir e ly s u p p o r ti v e o f t h e w o r k o f th e C o m m i s s i o n a n d c o n s is t e n t w i t h i t s r u l e s . I s w il li n g t o m a k e h i ms e lf a v a il a b l e if t h a t i s w h a t y o u - y o u r u le o f c o u r s e . So t h e r e is n o b a s is o n w h ic h t o c l a i m t h a t h e is s o m e h o w s u b j e c t to o t h e r 10 rules. He is e n t ir e ly prepared to come back and a s s is t t h e C o m m i s s i o n i f t h a t is w h a t y o u - w h a t y o u w o u ld l ik e . T h e d e b a t e t h is m o r n in g a ls o demonstrates that under the ti t le of m a lic e this a p p lic a ti o n is in f a c t tr y in g t o g e t y o u t o u n d o w h a t y o u h a v e a lr e a d y r u l e d a n d I w i ll ta k e y o u to y o u r r u li n g a n d w h a t w a s - w h a t w a s b e f o r e y o u a t th a t p o in t in ti m e t o d e m o n s tr a t e t h a t b e c a u s e … CHAIRPERSON: Of course you - of course you did hear what I said … A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : To M r M p o f u w h ic h w a s m o r e m e a n t f o r - fo r y o u … 20 A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : Ye s o f c o u r s e . CHAIRPERSON: F o r y o u , ja . To s a y i f Mr G o r d h a n h a d s to p p e d o n t h is - o n - ta lk a b o u t m a l ic e a n d s a i d n o t h i n g a b o u t S t a t e C a p t u r e m a y b e i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n e a s y to d is m i s s th e a p p l ic a t i o n . address that at your own convenience. I just … A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . Page 55 of 182 O k a y, b u t 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: But C h a ir the - th e point is that M i n is t e r G o r d h a n i s n o t s a y i n g a n y t h i n g n e w in h is c l a r i f ic a t o r y a ffi d a v i t . H e h a s … CHAIRPERSON: W e ll h e - h e n e v e r s a i d - w e l l M r M p o fu m i g h t d is a g r e e w i t h th is b u t I a m s a y i n g t h is a l s o n o t n e c e s s a r y h a v i n g r e fr e s h e d m y m e m o r y o n e v e r y t h i n g t h a t h e s a i d i n p r e v i o u s a ff i d a v i ts … ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: Hm. 10 CHAIRPERSON: B u t I d i d n o t u n d e r s ta n d h i m t o h a v e s a i d i n h is o r i g in a l a ffi d a v it t h a t M r M o y a n e h a d a c t e d i n f u r th e r a n c e o f th e a g e n d a o f S t a t e C a p t u r e , b e c a u s e if h e h a d s a i d t h a t d e fi n i t e l y M r M o y a n e i n h is a n s w e r in g a ffi d a v it w o u l d h a v e d e a lt w it h t h a t h e a d - o n , a n d I d o u b t t h a t i t w o u l d h a v e e s c a p e d m y a t te n t io n w h e n I p r e p a r e d m y p r e v io u s ju d g m e n t , b u t m a y b e t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g , w h e n th e r e a r e s o m a n y a ffi d a v i ts y o u m i g h t m is s s o m e t h in g . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: CHAIRPERSON: S o l e t m e . . . [ in t e r v e n e s ] B u t i t is p o s s i b l e t h a t o n e m i g h t h a v e t o r e a d t h e a ffi d a v i ts in a c e r ta i n w a y s o I a m n o t s a y in g t h a t j u s t b e c a u s e I m i g h t 20 n o t h a v e p ic k e d i t u p i t i s n o t t h e r e . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: C h a ir l e t m e th e n s u m m a r is e , b e c a u s e o b v i o u s l y th e r e h a v e b e e n m u lt i p l e a ffi d a v i t s p l a c e d b e f o r e y o u f r o m M i n is t e r G o r d h a n a n d o b v i o u s ly h is t h r e e d a y s o f e v i d e n c e b e f o r e y o u u n d e r o a th . M i n is t e r G o r d h a n ’s p o s i ti o n h a s b e e n e n tir e l y c o n s i s te n t t h r o u g h o u t t h is p r o c e s s a n d w h a t h e p l a c e d b e f o r e y o u in h i s w it n e s s Page 56 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 s t a te m e n t , i n h is o r a l t e s t i m o n y a n d i n t h e a ffi d a v i t s t h a t w e r e f il e d i n r e s p o n s e t o y o u r d ir e c t io n w h a t h e h a s a l w a y s s a id is t h e f o l l o w i n g ; h e d o e s n o t k n o w w h a t w a s i n Mr M o y a n e ’s h e a d w h e n h e w e n t a n d fi l e d t h e c r i m in a l c o m p l a i n t t h a t p r o d u c e d 2 7 q u e s t io n s fr o m th e H a w k s o n the eve of the budget, and criminal charges that were brought and u l ti m a t e ly w i th d r a w n by th e fo r m e r N a ti o n a l D ir e c to r of P u b lic P r o s e c u t io n s , S e a n A b r a h a ms . H e s a y s t h a t h e u n d e r s ta n d s t h e 2 7 q u e s ti o n s a n d th e c h a r g e s t h a t f l o w e d fr o m th e c r i m i n a l c o m p l a i n t fi le d b y M r M o y a n e t o h a v e 10 b e e n p a r t o f a p o li ti c a l c a m p a i g n a g a i n s t h i m , a n d i t f o r c in g h i m to r e s ig n fr o m th e p o s i t io n o f M i n i s t e r o f Fi n a n c e . Yo u w i ll r e c a l l h i s t e s t i m o n y w a s t h a t h e u n d e r s t o o d t h a t former President Zuma seemed to regret his reappointment but u n d e r s t o o d h e c o u l d n o t b e f ir e d , a n d s o t h e r e w a s a c a m p a i g n a g a in s t h i m a n d M r G o r d h a n ’s b e li e f i s t h a t p a r t o f t h a t c a m p a i g n w a s l a w e n f o r c e m e n t a g e n c ie s , th e H a w k s w i th t h e ir 2 7 q u e s ti o n s , a n d t h e n th e N PA w i t h it s c h a r g e s b r o u g h t a n d th e n w i t h d r a w n , u s e d t h e c r i m in a l c o m p la i n t l a i d b y M r M o y a n e i n t h a t c a m p a i g n , s o h e h a s o n ly e v e r r e p e a t e d . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: . . . t h e f a c t t h a t Mr M o y a n e w a s t h e p e r s o n w h o l a id t h e c h a r g e s w h e n h e m a k e s t h a t s t a t e m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y o u s e e i f y o u g o b a c k t o m y ju d g m e n t /r u li n g y o u w i ll s e e t h a t t h e r e is a p a r t w h e r e I s a y i f y o u g o t o c e r t a i n p a r ts o f M r G o r d h a n ’s a ffi d a v i t , I h o p e I e x p l a i n e d i t l ik e th is , m a y b e I d i d n o t Page 57 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 e x p l a i n it t h e w a y I a m e x p l a i n i n g i t , y o u k n o w c e r ta in ly w h e n y o u r e a d t h e a ffi d a v i t y o u c o u ld – y o u f o u n d p a r t s w h e r e h e w a s s a y in g y o u k n o w t h e b r i n g i n g o f c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s , t h e p r o s e c u ti o n s e e m s t o h a v e b e e n p a r t o f a n a g e n d a , le t u s c a ll i t S t a t e C a p t u r e a g e n d a , o k a y, b u t m y d i ff ic u l ty w a s n o w I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r h e m e a n s – I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r h e e x c lu d e s th e l a y i n g o f c h a r g e s w h e n h e t a l k s a b o u t t h i n g s b e i n g d o n e a s p a r t o f t h e S t a t e , th e b r i n g i n g o f c h a r g e s ja , i n o th e r w o r d s w h e n h e s a i d t h e b r in g i n g o f c h a r g e s w a s p a r t o f th is a g e n d a d id h e m e a n , d i d h e i n c l u d e th e l a y in g o f c h a r g e s b y M o y a n e o r d i d h e o n ly 10 t a lk a b o u t t h e 2 7 q u e s t io n s , th e d e c is i o n t o c h a r g e a n d n o t t h e l a y i n g of the complaint. S o t h a t w a s p a r t o f th e d i ffic u lt y a n d t h e n , b e a r i n g i n m i n d , a lo t o f th in g s t h a t h a d b e e n s a i d in t h e a ffi d a v i t a b o u t th e t w o o f t h e m , in th e v a r io u s a ffi d a v i t s a b o u t Mr G o r d h a n a n d Mr M o y a n e y o u th e n s a y w h a t a r e t h e c h a n c e s t h a t h e is e x c l u d i n g h i m f r o m t h i s a c c u s a ti o n th a t t h e b r i n g in g o f c h a r g e s w a s p a r t o f t h e a g e n d a , th e n y o u d o u b t th a t h e is e x c l u d i n g h i m . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: But then when you read somewhere you say maybe he 20 is e x c l u d i n g h i m , m a y b e h e is fo c u s i n g o n th e H a w k s a n d th e N PA , t h o s e a r e th e in s t i tu t io n s t h a t h e i s t a lk i n g a b o u t w h e n h e s a y s th e y were bringing these charges as part of some agenda, and then you are n o t s u r e , h e n c e m y s e e k i n g c la r i fi c a t io n y o u s e e , t h a t i s w h e r e I c a m e fr o m , I j u s t h a d d i ff ic u l ty u n d e r s t a n d in g w h e t h e r h e w a s e x c l u d i n g h i m fr o m t h a t . Page 58 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: S o t h e – a n d C h a ir I a m i n d e b t e d to t h a t f u r th e r c la r i fic a t io n o f y o u r t h i n k in g a n d y o u r r e a d i n g o f t h e a ffi d a v i ts , s o w h a t M i n is t e r G o r d h a n h a s a l w a y s s a i d is t h e f o ll o w i n g ; h e id e n t i fi e s M r M o y a n e a s th e i n d i v i d u a l w h o l a i d c h a r g e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: H e s a y s I d o n o t k n o w w h y h e l a i d th o s e charges. CHAIRPERSON: Mmm. ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: 10 T h o s e c h a r g e s w e r e t h e n p ic k e d u p b y t h e H a w k s a n d b y t h e N PA t o d o 2 7 q u e s t i o n s a n d b r i n g in w i t h d r a w a l c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s a g a i n s t m e a n d t h a t c o m p o n e n t o f i t w a s t h e p o li t i – p a r t o f t h e c a m p a i g n t o tr y to f o r c e m e o u t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: A n d th a t i s w h a t h e c la r i fi e s i n h is a ffi d a v i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: S o h e o n l y e v e r r e p e a ts M r M o y a n e w a s t h e o r i g in o f t h e c o m p l a in t th a t w a s t h e n p ic k e d u p a n d u s e d b y L a w E n f o r c e m e n t A g e n c i e s , fi r s t t h e H a w k s , t h e n t h e N PA , i n th e c a m p a i g n . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: S o a ll h e s a y s a b o u t M r M o y a n e is h e w a s t h e m a n w h o w a lk e d in a n d la i d t h e c r i m i n a l c o m p la i n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: Th a t i s w h y h e s a y s I d o n o t k n o w w h y h e d i d t h a t, s o o n th e c h a r g e s q u e s t io n , w h i c h is th e o n l y is s u e t h a t is s ti ll Page 59 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 r e m a in in g fo r d e c is i o n , Mi n is te r G o r d h a n h a s s a i d , a n d h a s o n ly e v e r s a i d M r M o y a n e w a s t h e p e r s o n w h o d i d t h a t. CHAIRPERSON: Mmm. ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: That complaint was then used in the c a m p a i g n , a n d h e d o e s n o t s a y M r M o y a n e w a s p a r t o f 2 7 q u e s ti o n s o r c h a r g e s b e c a u s e h e d o e s n o t h a v e a n y i n f o r m a ti o n t o t h a t e ffe c t . CHAIRPERSON: Mmm. ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: W h e r e h e d e a l t w i t h M r M o y a n e o t h e r w is e in h i s e v i d e n c e w a s to s a y f r o m t h e m o m e n t h e w a s a p p o i n t e d S A R S 10 C o m m i s s i o n e r h e r e s is t e d m y a u t h o r i t y, a n d t h e n d i d t h i n g s a t S A R S that made no sense to me and now makes sense if you understand t h e m i n t e r m s o f S t a t e C a p tu r e , a n d i n y o u r r u l in g y o u w e n t t h r o u g h a ll o f t h a t a n d d i s m is s e d t h e a p p l ic a ti o n o n a ll o f t h o s e o t h e r t o p ic s . What you a p p lic a ti o n and are b e in g permit th a t asked to do to d a y i s r e v is it t h a t c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n w h ic h you have p r e v i o u s ly d is a l l o w e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l l e t u s ta k e it s t e p b y s t e p . A s y o u s t a n d t h e r e a r e y o u a b le t o s a y t o m e , a n d m a y b e y o u h a v e a lr e a d y s a i d s o , b u t I ju s t w a n t to m a k e s u r e t h e r e is n o m i s u n d e r s ta n d i n g , th a t M r G o r d h a n 20 is n o t s a y in g t h a t in l a y in g c h a r g e s a g a i n s t h i m Mr M o y a n e w a s a c ti n g m a lic i o u s ly, o n e , o r w a s a c ti n g i n f u r th e r a n c e o f t h e S t a t e C a p t u r e agenda. Are you able to say that? ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: I n d e e d C h a ir. S o i f w e l o o k Mr M o y a n e ’s – s o r r y M i n i s t e r G o r d h a n ’s c la r i fi c a t o r y a ffi d a v i t u n d e r th e h e a d i n g w h e r e h e is tr y i n g to r e c a p h i s e v id e n c e b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s i o n a n d Page 60 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 s h o w t h a t i t i s Mr M o y a n e w h o i n tr o d u c e s t h is id e a o f m a l ic e a n d p o s e s t h e q u e s ti o n o f w h e t h e r y o u s h o u l d e n t e r t a i n t h e d e b a te a b o u t w h a t w a s i n h i s h e a d w h e n h e la id t h e c o m p la i n t, M i n is te r G o r d h a n s a y s m y e v i d e n c e – a n d th is is p a r a g r a p h 1 0 o f h is c l a r i f ic a to r y a ffi d a v it , i t s t a r ts t h e r e . He says: “ M y e v i d e n c e f o c u s e d o n t h e o v e r a ll p r e s s u r e a n d p o l it ic a l c a m p a i g n w h ic h w a s p a r t o f t h e e ff o r ts t o c a p tu r e S t a t e I n s ti t u ti o n s i n r e c e n t y e a r s , th a t I w a s s u b j e c t e d t o fo ll o w i n g m y r e a p p o i n t m e n t a s M in is t e r o f Fi n a n c e . 10 I b e l ie v e t h a t th e in v e s t i g a t io n [ th a t ’s t h e H a w k ’s 2 7 q u e s ti o n s ] , th e l a t e r c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s [ t h a t ’s t h e b r in g i n g a n d w it h d r a w a l o f t h e c h a r g e s b y th e N PA ] t h a t b o th o r i g in a t e d f r o m M r M o y a n e ’s c o m p la i n t w e r e p a r t o f t h a t c a m p a i g n . ” S o a g a in a l l h e i s s a y i n g is f a c t u a lly M r M o y a n e l a id t h e c o m p l a i n t t h a t p r o d u c e d w h a t t h e H a w k s a n d th e N PA d id to m e in te r ms o f a c a m p a i g n t h a t M i n i s t e r G o r d h a n b e l ie v e s w a s a i m e d a t g e t t in g h i m t o r e s ig n , th a t is p a r a g r a p h 11 . “ I f I c o u l d b e p r e s s u r e d i n to r e s i g n i n g I b e li e v e th a t e ff o r ts t o c a p tu r e N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y b y a p p o in t in g a c o m p l i a n t M i n is t e r 20 o f F i n a n c e i n m y p la c e w o u l d h a v e c o n t in u e d . ” Yo u w ill r e c a l l th a t o b v i o u s l y h i s r e a p p o in t m e n t w a s b e c a u s e o f t h e d is a s t r o u s appointment of Mr Des van Rooyen for a weekend e s s e n ti a l ly. CHAIRPERSON: Mmm. ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: T h e n w h e n h e – th e n p a r a g r a p h 1 2 h e Page 61 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 t a k e s y o u b a c k t o h is e v i d e n c e b e f o r e y o u , a n d t h e o n ly ti m e h e m e n ti o n e d M r M o y a n e i n r e l a t i o n t o th e c h a r g e s w a s w h e n h e t e s t if i e d a n d h e q u o t e s it , t h e e n v e l o p e c o n ta i n i n g 2 7 q u e s ti o n s a d d r e s s e d t o m e fr o m t h e H a w k s d e m a n d in g t h a t t h e y b e a n s w e r e d b y 2 M a r c h 2 0 1 6 , t h e q u e s t i o n s r e la t e d t o t h e h i g h r i s k i n v e s t ig a ti o n u n i t w i t h i n S A R S f o r m e d y e a r s e a r l ie r. C h a r g e s a g a i n s t m e r e l a ti n g t o t h a t u n i t h a d b e e n f il e d b y M o y a n e o n 1 5 M a y 2 0 1 5 . A g a i n i t i s a fa c tu a l r e c o r d in g th a t M o y a n e w a s t h e in d i v i d u a l w h o l a id t h e c h a r g e s . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Mmm. ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: He then goes on about the charges being b r o u g h t a n d w i t h d r a w n a n d th e n i n p a r a g r a p h 1 7 a n d fo ll o w i n g o f h is a ffi d a v i t h e s a y s “ t h e s o u r c e o f t h e c l a i m t h a t M r M o y a n e a c t e d w it h m a l ic e w h e n h e l a id t h e c h a r g e s is M r M o y a n e h i m s e l f , n o t m e . ” H e e x p l a i n s h o w h e d e a l t w i t h t h a t i n h i s a n s w e r i n g a ffi d a v i t a n d t h e n a t p a r a g r a p h 2 2 . 5 w h e r e h e i s d e a l i n g s p e c i f ic a l ly w i t h y o u r d ir e c t io n s o n w h a t y o u w a n t c l a r i fi e d , b e c a u s e w h a t y o u w a n t e d c l a r if i e d w a s a r e y o u s a y in g t h a t M r M o y a n e a n d y o u r – a n d to q u o t e y o u – th e d ir e c t iv e 20 w a s m o ti v a t e d w h o l ly o r i n p a r t b y o r h e s o u g h t t o a d v a n c e t h e o b j e c ti v e s o f S t a te C a p tu r e , a n d t h a t h e w a s a b u s i n g a l e g a l p r o c e s s f o r h is o w n p e r s o n a l g o a ls th a t i t h a d e i t h e r n o t h i n g o r li t tl e to d o w it h a l e g i ti m a t e c o m p l a in t r e l a ti n g t o a n a l l e g e d c r i m e . S o i n tr y i n g t o r e s p o n d t o th o s e h y p o t h e t i c a l o p ti o n s t h a t y o u r d ir e c t io n p o s e d M i n is t e r G o r d h a n s a y s a t p a r a g r a p h 2 2 .5 : Page 62 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 “ I b e l i e v e t h a t Mr M o y a n e ’s p e r s o n a l g o a ls w h il e h e w a s S A R S C o m m is s i o n e r i n c l u d e th e a d v a n c e m e n t o f t h e S t a t e Capture project. T h e b e li e f is f o u n d e d o n w h a t w e k n o w n o w about the failure of integrity and governance at SARS, e v i d e n c e d b y t h e c h a n g e o v e r f o u r y e a r s , c o m p r o m is in g it s c o r e fu n c t io n o f c o ll e c ti n g ta x a s f o u n d b y J u d g e N u g e n t . ” A n d th e n h e t u r n s t o h ig h li g h t b a s e d o n t h e N u g e n t fi n d i n g s th a t th o s e a r e th e b a s is f o r h is b e l ie f t h a t M r M o y a n e ’s a c ti o n s a s S A R S C o m m i s s i o n e r w e r e p a r t o f t h e S t a t e C a p tu r e p r o c e s s , a n d th e n h e 10 says at paragraph 29, because he then goes through all the Nugent fi n d i n g s a n d h e r e c o r d s a t 2 8 , p a r a g r a p h 2 8 t h a t w h e n h e c a m e b e fo r e y o u h e e x p l a i n e d to y o u th e a c r i m o n i o u s n a tu r e o f t h e r e la t io n s h ip w i t h M r M o y a n e o n c e h e w a s a p p o i n t e d a n d M in is t e r G o r d h a n w a s h is E x e c u t iv e A u th o r it y, h is b o s s , a n d t h e r e w a s th is a c r i m o n y a n d t h e r e w a s t h i s r e s is t a n c e t o M i n is te r ’s G o r d h a n ’s o v e r s i g h t o f S A R S a n d h e r e c o u n t e d a ll o f th e v a r i o u s i n s t a n c e s w h e r e M r M o y a n e a p p e a r e d to r e s is t h i s a c c o u n t a b i li ty to t h e M i n i s te r o f Fi n a n c e , a n d t h e n h e s a y s a t paragraph 29: “ T h i s p r o v i d e s t h e c o n t e x t t o a n d th e b a s i s f o r m y b e li e f t h a t 20 h is l a y in g o f a c o m p la i n t a g a i n s t m e w a s s o m e th in g o t h e r t h a n th e a c ti o n o f a r e a s o n a b le S A R S C o m m is s i o n e r. ” S o h e i s s a y in g in li g h t o f e v e r y th in g w e k n o w a t t h e ti m e w h e r e th is m a n w a s a c t i n g in a w a y t o d is m a n t le a n d r e s tr u c t u r e S A R S a n d r e s is ti n g in o u r r e p o r t in g r e l a ti o n s h i p m y a u th o r it y a t t h e ti m e I t h o u g h t s o m e t h i n g e l s e w a s g o i n g o n h e r e a n d n o w th a t I h a v e t h e N u g e n t Page 63 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 C o m m i s s i o n r e p o r t s i t c o n f ir m s t h a t s u s p i c i o n t h a t I h a d th a t M r M o y a n e m a y h a v e b e e n a d v a n c in g th e S t a t e C a p tu r e p r o j e c t . T h a t h a s g o t n o t h i n g to d o w it h t h e m a l ic e q u e s t io n , w h ic h is t h e o n ly is s u e t h a t r e m a i n s b e f o r e y o u fo r d e b a te . S o a g a i n to r e c a p M i n i s t e r G o r d h a n o n ly e v e r s a y s To m M o y a n e l a i d t h e o r i g i n a l c o m p la in t . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s l e t u s t r y a n d d e a l w i t h i t th is w a y, s o I g o b a c k t o my q u e s ti o n ; a r e y o u a b l e a s y o u s t a n d th e r e t o s a y t o m e M i n i s t e r G o r d h a n is n o t s a y i n g t h a t in l a y in g c h a r g e s a g a i n s t h i m M r M o y a n e 10 w a s a c t i n g in f u r th e r a n c e o f S t a te C a p t u r e . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e i f th a t i s w h a t y o u s a y I t h i n k i t m a y m a k e a b i g d i ff e r e n c e . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: Ye s C h a ir, b e c a u s e w h a t . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g ? ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: Ye s C h a ir, s o w h a t M r M i n i s te r G o r d h a n h a s s a id t o t h is C o m m i s s i o n i n h is e v i d e n c e a n d in a l l o f h i s a ffi d a v it s is M r M o y a n e ’s d i s m a n t li n g o f S A R S a n d h is r e s is ta n c e t o m y a u th o r i ty a p p e a r s to s e r v e t h e S t a t e C a p tu r e a g e n d a . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: And the Nugent Commission has found t h a t th a t w a s s o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X: With respect to charges Minister Gordhan h a s o n ly e v e r s a i d I d o n o t k n o w w h a t w a s i n h is h e a d , a n d I d o n o t Page 64 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 t h i n k – a n d h e h a s s a id t o y o u th a t h e d o e s n o t b e li e v e t h a t i t w o u l d a s s is t th e C o m m i s s i o n f o r y o u t o t r y to m a k e a f in d in g o n t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: H e h a s o n ly e v e r s a i d M r M o y a n e w a s t h e p e r s o n w h o fi le d t h e c h a r g e s . S o t h e S t a t e C a p tu r e p a r t o f a n y o f th e a l le g a ti o n is t o s a y a t t h e ti m e I h a d t h is r e l a ti o n s h i p th a t w h e r e h e w a s r e s is ti n g m y a u t h o r i ty, h e t o o k d e c is i o n s a n d t o o k a c ti o n a t S A R S t h a t d is m a n t le d a n d u n d e r m i n e d th a t o r g a n is a t io n a n d I a m b o ls t e r e d i n m y b e li e f n o w k n o w in g w h a t J u s ti c e N u g e n t h a s f o u n d . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e i t s e e m s t o m e t h a t i f Mr G o r d h a n ’s p o s i ti o n is a s f a r a s t h e l a y i n g o f c h a r g e s a g a i n s t h i m b y M r M o y a n e is c o n c e r n e d h e i s n o t s a y i n g th a t t h e l a y i n g o f c h a r g e s w a s d o n e in f u r th e r a n c e o f S t a te C a p t u r e . I t s e e ms t o m e t h e r e fo r e t h a t w h a t e v e r h e m a y b e s a y i n g i n h i s c la r i fi c a t o r y a ffi d a v i t a b o u t t h a t a s s o c i a te s M r M o y a n e w i th S t a te C a p t u r e m i g h t b e r e l a ti n g to o t h e r t h in g s o t h e r t h a n t h e la y i n g o f c h a r g e s a n d i f i t r e la t e s to o t h e r t h i n g s a n d n o t th e l a y in g o f c h a r g e s i t m i g h t m e a n t h a t t h e is s u e o f th e a p p l ic a t i o n f o r le a v e to c r o s s - e x a m in e t h a t w a s le f t u n d e c i d e d c a n b e d e c id e d o n it s o w n a n d th e n M i n is te r 20 G o r d h a n m i g h t h a v e t o m a k e u p h i s m i n d w h e t h e r h e d o e s w a n t to th e n c o m e u p w i th s o m e t h in g s e p a r a t e w h ic h o n m y r e a d i n g o f h is a ffi d a v i ts , w h ic h m ig h t b e d i ffe r e n t fr o m M r M p o f u ’s r e a d in g , m ig h t n o t h a v e b e e n there. S o w h e r e h e m i g h t s a y I a c t u a l ly d o b e l i e v e t h a t Mr M o y a n e d i d a n u m b e r o f t h in g s i n p u r s u a n c e o f t h e a g e n d a o f S t a te C a p tu r e , Page 65 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 h e r e is t h e b a s is f o r m y b e l ie f a n d I a m w il li n g to c o m e a n d g i v e e v i d e n c e , th a t a ff id a v i t g e t s g i v e n t o Mr M o y a n e , h e is a b l e t o r e s p o n d t o i t a n d t h e n e v e r y t h i n g is c l e a n y o u k n o w, i t c a n b e d e a l t w i th , e v e r y b o d y k n o w s w h e r e th e y s ta n d a n d a b o u t w h a t , b u t th e n i t b e c o m e s a s e p a r a te t h i n g . T h a t is p a r t o f w h a t I a m th i n k i n g n o w. What do you have to say about that? ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: C h a ir I h a v e t w o t h in g s to s a y a b o u t t h a t , t h e fir s t is th a t y o u a r e w i th r e s p e c t e n tir e ly c o r r e c t t h a t t h e d e c i s i o n c a n b e ta k e n to d a y o n t h e o u ts ta n d i n g is s u e t h a t h a n g s o v e r fr o m t h e 10 e a r l ie r a p p l ic a t i o n , t h i s q u e s t io n o f m a lic e , a n d i t c a n b e d i s m is s e d , s o y o u c a n d e c i d e o n t h e b a s i s o f w h a t y o u h a v e b e f o r e y o u a lr e a d y th a t t h is r e s i d u a l is s u e t h a t w a s le f t o v e r f o r a r g u m e n t , a n d fu r t h e r c la r i fi c a t o r y a ff i d a v i ts a n d s u b m i s s i o n s c a n n o w b e d e c i d e d a n d d e c i d e d i n a w a y t h a t d is m i s s e s t h e a p p lic a ti o n b e c a u s e a l l M i n is t e r G o r d h a n h a s e v e r s a i d is To m M o y a n e w a s t h e o r ig i n o f a c r i m i n a l c o m p la i n t t h a t w a s t h e n u s e d i n a s u b s e q u e n t c o m p la in t – c a m p a ig n b y o th e r p e o p l e , t h e H a w k s a n d t h e N PA . S o th e r e is n o b a s i s o n w h ic h M r M o y a n e c r o s s - e x a mi n in g M i n is t e r G o r d h a n h e lp s y o u b e c a u s e th a t i s s u e i s n o w d e c id e d . 20 CHAIRPERSON: O f c o u r s e i f I a m c o r r e c t in t h e a p p r o a c h I j u s t o u t li n e d t h e c o n s e q u e n c e o f t h a t m a y w e l l b e t h a t t h e r e f o r e i n s a y i n g w h a t h e s a i d a b o u t S t a t e C a p tu r e i n h is c l a r i fi c a t o r y a ffi d a v i t Mr G o r d h a n w a s s a y i n g s o m e t h in g th a t h a d n o th in g t o d o w i th t h e is s u e a t h a n d , b e c a u s e t h e is s u e a t h a n d w a s w h e t h e r in l a y i n g c h a r g e s Mr M o y a n e a c t e d m a l ic i o u s ly o r a s p a r t o f th e S t a te C a p t u r e i f th e p o s i ti o n Page 66 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 is t h a t h e is s a y i n g t h e l a y in g o f c h a r g e s , h e is n o t s a y i n g t h a t t h e la y i n g o f c h a r g e s w a s p a r t o f f u r t h e r i n g t h e a i m o f S t a te C a p t u r e , th e n r e a l ly w h a t e v e r h e s a i d m i g h t b e w h a t h e b e l ie v e s b u t i t th e r e f o r e m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n r e l e v a n t t o th e i s s u e . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: Pr e c is e ly C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: S o h e s a y s t h e l a y in g o f c h a r g e s is o n l y – t h e o n ly r e f e r e n c e t h a t M i n is t e r G o r d h a n m a k e s to t h e l a y i n g o f c h a r g e s is t o s a y h o w i t s u b s e q u e n t ly p ic k e d u p b y o th e r e n ti t ie s in t h e 10 c a m p a i g n t o tr y t o g e t h i m t o r e s i g n . CHAIRPERSON: Mmm, mmm. ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: T h a t ’s a l l h e s a y s . In t h e c l a r i f ic a t o r y a ffi d a v i t w h e r e h e r e c a p s h is e v i d e n c e a b o u t th e a t t a c k o n Tr e a s u r y a n d t h e a t te m p t t o c a p t u r e Tr e a s u r y a n d w h a t M r M o y a n e d i d a t S A R S h e is tr y in g to r e s p o n d to t h e C h a ir ’s d i r e c ti o n t h a t s a i d a r e y o u s a y i n g t h a t t h e r e w a s a n o t h e r – t h e r e w a s s o m e th in g e l s e g o i n g o n a n d h e s a y s i t is m y p e r s o n a l b e l i e f t h a t To m M o y a n e p l a y e d a r o le i n th e c a p tu r e p r o j e c t b a s e d o n w h a t h e d i d a t S A R S , w h ic h h a s n o t h i n g t o d o with charges. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t o f c o u r s e . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: A n d a ls o – s o r r y C h a i r i f I c o u ld j u s t c o m p le t e th e p o in t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: I t h a s – i t i s n o t h in g n e w b e c a u s e t h a t’s w h a t h e t e s ti f ie d a b o u t a lr e a d y a n d in y o u r r u li n g y o u w e n t th r o u g h a ll Page 67 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 o f th o s e t h e m e s t h a t th e y h o p e d t o c r o s s - e x a m in e o n M i n i s t e r G o r d h a n a n d S t a t e C a p tu r e , S A R S a n d S t a t e C a p t u r e , th e h i g h r i s k in v e s t i g a t io n u n i t a n d c a p t u r e a n d y o u d i s mi s s e d a ll o f t h o s e th e m e s a n d t o p ic s s o y o u h a v e a lr e a d y d e c id e d th a t t h e o t h e r i s n o t g o i n g t o b e t h e b a s is f o r c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n , c e r t a in ly n o t w i t h o u t a v e r s i o n fr o m M r M o y a n e . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u s e e in t h e d i r e c t i o n t h a t I i s s u e d w h e r e I a s k e d w h e t h e r h e m e a n t t h a t i n l a y in g c h a r g e s Mr M o y a n e a b u s e d le g a l p r o c e s s o r w h a t e v e r w o r d i n g I u s e d . I w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e l a y i n g o f c h a r g e s a n d n o t h i n g e ls e , t h e r e f o r e h e s h o u l d o n ly h a v e r e s p o n d e d t o 10 t h a t w it h in t h e c o n te x t o f t h e l a y i n g o f c h a r g e s , b u t if – b u t fr o m w h a t y o u s a y it s e e ms t h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g a s f a r a s t h e l a y in g o f c h a r g e s i s n o t a s s o c ia t in g th a t w i th S t a t e C a p t u r e b u t o t h e r t h in g s t h a t M r M o y a n e m a y h a v e d o n e w h i le h e w a s C o m m i s s i o n e r o f S A R S t h e r e a r e o th e r t h i n g s th a t h e is a s s o c i a ti n g M r M o y a n e w i t h i n t h e c o n t e x t o f S t a te C a p t u r e , s o m y q u e s ti o n is th e n h e s h o u l d n o t h a v e b o t h e r e d to t e ll m e a b o u t t h o s e b e c a u s e a ll I w a s in t e r e s t e d i n w a s t h e la y i n g o f c h a r g e s , y o u u n d e r s ta n d t h a t? ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: S o h e – y e s – h e m a y w e ll , s h o u l d n o t h a v e b o t h e r e d i n g o i n g fu r t h e r b u t a s I h a v e e x p l a i n e d i t w a s tr y in g t o – 20 it w a s o b v i o u s ly a m is u n d e r s t a n d in g o f y o u r d ir e c t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: H e th o u g h t t h a t th e d ir e c ti o n in v i t e d M i n is t e r G o r d h a n t o a d d r e s s th e l a y in g o f c h a r g e s is s u e , w h i c h h e d i d , a n d t h e n w h e r e th e d ir e c ti o n s a i d w h a t w a s – w h a t a r e y o u s a y i n g a b o u t M r M o y a n e ’s r o l e in t h e S t a t e C a p t u r e a n d t h e n h e c l a r i fi e d a g a i n Page 68 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 t h e p a r t t h a t h e – b u t t h e c r i ti c a l p o i n t f o r t o d a y ’s p u r p o s e s i s t h a t y o u h a v e a l r e a d y c o n s i d e r e d t h a t o th e r a s p e c t a n d r e j e c t e d t h e a p p l ic a t i o n . Yo u h a d a l r e a d y d e c i d e d i n y o u r e a r li e r r u l in g t h a t i t d o e s n o t a s s is t t h e w o r k o f th e C o m m i s s i o n t o h a v e M r M o y a n e ’s l e g a l t e a m c r o s s - e x a m in e my c li e n t about why he b e l ie v e s the Nugent C o m m i s s i o n , w h ic h is e s s e n ti a l ly w h a t t h e e x e r c is e w o u l d b e , s o h e i s a lr e a d y e x p l a i n e d a n d i n y o u r r u l i n g i f w e – y o u k n o w i t s t a r ts a t 4 2 a n d c o n ti n u e s t h r o u g h t h e r u l i n g u n ti l w e – a n d i t g o e s a ll t h e w a y th r o u g h t h e v a r i o u s t h e m e s u n t il w e g e t t o p a r a g r a p h 6 7 , t h a t is w h e r e i n – fr o m 10 p a r a g r a p h 4 2 a l l t h e w a y t o 6 7 is w h e r e y o u r r u li n g d e a l t w i th t h e u n i t n a r r a t iv e , t h e f i n d in g s o f t h e N u g e n t C o m m i s s io n a n d y o u d e te r m i n e d that it was not going to assist the work of the Commission to have c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n o n th a t q u e s ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , b u t r e m e m b e r t h a t , a t l e a s t a s f a r a s I r e c a ll n o w, a n d I m a y b e m is t a k e n , n o n e o f t h a t w a s p u t w i th in t h e c o n te x t o f S t a te C a p tu r e , a s I u n d e r s ta n d it , I m a y b e m is t a k e n , b u t th e – w h a t h e a d d e d in h i s c l a r if ic a to r y a ff id a v i t w a s q u i te s o c le a r, h e s a y s M r Moyane acted in furtherance of State Capture. N o w t h is is t h e S t a t e C a p t u r e C o m m i s s io n , i f s o m e b o d y is 20 a c c u s i n g s o m e b o d y o f a c ti n g in f u r th e r a n c e o f S t a t e C a p t u r e s u r e ly th e C o m m i s s i o n w a n ts to h e a r m o r e a b o u t t h a t , a n d – b u t I d o n ’ t w a n t u s t o . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: A n d C h a ir . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n ’ t w a n t u s t o g o a r o u n d i n c ir c le s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: N o b u t C h a i r I a b s o l u te ly, w it h r e s p e c t I Page 69 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 a b s o l u t e ly a g r e e w i th y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: B e c a u s e f o r th e C o m m i s s io n – th e C o m m i s s i o n a b s o l u te ly n e e d s t o h e a r m o r e a b o u t h o w M r M o y a n e w a s , o r w a s n o t, p a r t o f th e S t a te C a p t u r e p r o je c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: B u t i t m u s t h e a r i t fr o m M r M o y a n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: 10 I t m u s t b e a v e r s i o n fr o m M r M o y a n e th a t d e a ls w i th h i s t i m e a t S A R S . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: D e a l s w i t h h is ti m e a t C o r r e c t io n a l S e r v ic e s w h e r e h e w a s m e n t io n e d i n r e l a t io n t o t h e B o s a s a p a y m e n ts , d e a ls w i t h h is r o le i n t h e Wa t e r k lo o f l a n d in g , t h a t h a s a ls o b e e n handled by the Commission. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , n o I .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ] ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: S o t h e r e is a v e r s i o n fr o m M r M o y a n e th a t w o u ld a s s is t th e w o r k o f t h e C o m m is s i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o , n o , n o .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ] 20 ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: I t is n o t b y c r o s s - e x a m in i n g Mr G o r d h a n o n h i s b e l i e f s b a s e d o n th e N u g e n t C o m m i s s i o n . CHAIRPERSON: I t h i n k w e s h o u ld p u t it th is w a y. Anyone who has in f o r m a ti o n s u g g e s ti n g t h a t a n y b o d y w a s p a r t o f th e S t a t e C a p tu r e Agenda should come forward Commission. and bring th a t i n fo r m a t i o n to th e T h e y b r i n g t h a t in f o r m a ti o n b y w a y o f a s ta t e m e n t o r Page 70 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 a ffi d a v i t , o n c e t h e C o m m i s s io n h a s g o t t h a t i t m a k e s a c o p y a v a i la b l e t o t h e p e r s o n s i m p l ic a te d t h e r e in . They get a chance to respond and a t s o m e s t a g e s o m e b o d y w i ll g iv e e v i d e n c e a n d a p p li c a t io n s f o r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e w il l b e m a d e , b u t th a t is w h a t – a n d th e n th a t ’s w h e r e t h e is s u e c o m e s u p t h a t if y o u w a n t b e g r a n t e d le a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e y o u m u s t u p y o u r v e r s io n . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w. Indeed. S o th a t is w h y i t m a y w e l l b e t h a t i n t h e li g h t o f t h e s t a n c e y o u h a v e t a k e n , a n d I th in k i t w o u l d b e i m p o r t a n t 10 t h a t m a y b e t h e r e b e a n o th e r a ffi d a v i t w h e r e Mr G o r d h a n c o n fir m s e x a c tl y w h a t y o u h a v e s a id . I t m a y w e ll b e t h a t t h e r e f o r e i f M r G o r d h a n w a n ts to s u p p ly t h e C o m m i s s i o n w i t h w h a t e v e r i n fo r m a ti o n t h a t h e h a s p e r s o n a l k n o w le d g e o f t h a t s u g g e s t s t h a t M r M o y a n e w a s a c ti n g i n f u r t h e r a n c e o f t h e a g e n d a o f S t a te C a p t u r e m a y b e h e c a n t h e n p u t t h a t u p a fr e s h a n d t h e n t h a t c a n b e g i v e n to M r M o y a n e , h e g e ts a c h a n c e t o r e s p o n d , a n d w e t a k e i t fr o m t h e r e , b u t m a y b e t h is o n e c a n b e c lo s e d o n t h e b a s i s , a n d I k n o w M r M p o fu is s ti ll g o in g t o g o i n g t o h a v e a r ig h t o f r e p ly a n d M r P r e t o r i u s h a s n o t s a i d a n y th i n g , i t m a y b e t h a t i f M r G o r d h a n s a y s I a m 20 n o t s a y i n g t h a t i n l a y in g c h a r g e s a g a i n s t m e M r M o y a n e a c t e d i n f u r th e r a n c e o f t h e S t a te C a p tu r e , I a m n o t s a y i n g t h a t h e a c t e d m a lic i o u s ly, m a y b e t h a t s h o u l d c l o s e o ff o n e c h a p t e r, a n d t h e i f t h e r e is g o i n g t o b e a n o th e r c h a p t e r t h e n i t i s a n e w c h a p t e r. Ye s ? ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: C h a ir M i n is t e r G o r d h a n h a s a l w a y s s a i d Page 71 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 p r e c i s e ly t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: H e h a s o n ly e v e r s a i d M r M o y a n e w a s t h e o r i g in o f w h a t t u r n e d i n t o a c a m p a i g n . CHAIRPERSON: Mmm. ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: H e h a s a lr e a d y p r o v i d e to t h e C o m m i s s io n r e l y i n g o n N u g e n t a n d r e ly in g o n th e e v id e n c e h e g a v e y o u a lr e a d y a b o u t h is p e r s o n a l e x p e r ie n c e o f w h a t M r M o y a n e d i d a s s o o n a s h e a r r iv e d a s S A R S C o m m i s s i o n e r, to s a y t h i s s e e m e d to b e a p a r t o f t h e 10 S t a te C a p t u r e Pr o je c t . S o I w il l o b v i o u s l y ta k e i n s tr u c t io n s , b u t I a m n o t s u r e M i n i s t e r G o r d h a n w il l h a v e fu r t h e r i n f o r m a ti o n t o h e lp y o u . B u t th a t i s t h e c r i t ic a l p o i n t. I t is t i m e f o r Mr M o y a n e to t e l l y o u a n d t o t e l l t h e c o u n tr y w h y – w h a t h e d i d a t S A R S w a s n o t p a r t o f s t a te c a p tu r e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm; ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: B e c a u s e h e n e v e r w e n t to N u g e n t a n d explained it CHAIRPERSON: Hm 20 ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: H e h a s n e v e r d e s p i t e p r o mi s i n g y o u t h e la s t ti m e w e w e r e h e r e t h a t a t – a r e v ie w o f N u g e n t w o u l d b e l a u n c h e d i m m i n e n tl y i t h a s n e v e r h a p p e n e d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: And now he want to come to this c o m m i s s io n a n d tr y t o r e r u n t h e s a m e a r g u m e n ts , t h e s a m e t h e m e s , t h e Page 72 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 o l d n a r r a ti v e s t h a t a r e b e in g u s e d o u t s id e o f th is r o o m t o tr y t o d is c r e d i t m y c li e n t i n a p o l it ic a l c a m p a i g n . A n d t h a t is P u b li c Pr o t e c to r R e p o r ts a n d I G I R e p o r ts a n d t h e l ik e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : A n d t h e q u e s t io n fo r t h e c o m m i s s i o n w h e n it r e c e iv e s M r M o y a n e ’s v e r s i o n is w h e t h e r i t w i ll b e u s e fu l f o r M i n i s t e r G o r d h a n to r e tu r n o n t h a t b a s is . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Ja. A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : B u t f o r p u r p o s e s o f t o d a y. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: A n d o b v io u s l y if y o u w o u l d l ik e a fu r t h e r a n d w e w i ll – w e w i ll k e e p i t v e r y, v e r y s h o r t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s v e r y s h o r t j a . A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : S o t h a t i t is v e r y, v e r y c l e a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: If y o u w o u ld l ik e a p a r a g r a p h t h a t s a y s I h a v e o n ly e v e r s a i d … C H A I R P E R S O N : To s a y e x a c tl y. ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: He was the origin of the charges. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: Ev e r y t h in g e ls e I h a v e s a i d a b o u t M r M o y a n e a n d s t a te c a p t u r e i s b a s e d o n m y p e r s o n a l e x p e r ie n c e s t h a t I h a v e a l r e a d y te s ti fi e d t o a n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t i n r e l a ti o n t o th e l a y i n g o f c h a r g e s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: N o t w h a t N u g e n t s a y s . N o t i n r e l a ti o n t o Page 73 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 t h e la y i n g o f c h a r g e s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : W e c o u l d – w e c o u l d d o th a t . B e c a u s e t h a t w o u ld c l o s e o ff t h i s a p p l ic a t i o n a n d i f w o u l d m e a n t h a t o n c e Mr M o y a n e fi n a l ly ta k e s t h e c o u n tr y i n t o h is c o n fi d e n c e a n d s a y s Th is is w h a t w a s a c t u a ll y g o i n g o n w h e n I w a s d o in g w h a t I w a s d o i n g . CHAIRPERSON: Hm A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : A n d o b v i o u s ly y o u w o u ld h a v e t o d e c i d e i f y o u c a n e n t e r t a i n t h a t e v i d e n c e g iv e n t h a t y o u a r e n o t s i tt i n g a s a 10 r e v ie w c o u r t o f th e N u g e n t C o m m is s i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : Pr e s u m a b l y h e m a y … CHAIRPERSON: Well it is… A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : S a y s o m e t h i n g a b o u t M i n is te r G o r d h a n a n d w e c o u l d h a v e a fu r t h e r a p p l ic a ti o n t h e n . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll – I a m n o t a n d I w ill n o t b e s i t ti n g a s a r e v i e w c o u r t o f t h e N u g e n t C o m m i s s io n b u t a t t h e s a m e ti m e j u s t b e c a u s e J u s t ic e N u g e n t h a d m a d e c e r t a i n fi n d i n g s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: Of course. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : I c a n n o t ju s t a c c e p t h is f in d i n g s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: No of course. CHAIRPERSON: And make – and make them my own. ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: No of course. C H A I R P E R S O N : I f I a m t o m a k e a n y fi n d in g s I m a y – I m a y t a k e i n to a c c o u n t w h a t h e h a s s a i d b u t i n th e e n d I m u s t m a k e u p m y o w n m i n d . Page 74 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : A b s o l u te ly. CHAIRPERSON: S o – s o t h e r e is t h a t b u t I t h i n k I u n d e r s ta n d – u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u r s u b – y o u r – t h e g i s t o f y o u r s u b m is s io n s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: C h a ir i f I c o u ld t h e n j u s t b r i e fl y c o r r e c t – c o r r e c t o n e f a c tu a l e r r o r m a d e b y m y fr ie n d i n h is s u b m is s io n s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : B e c a u s e i t is i m p o r t a n t f o r t h e r e c o r d . S o M r M p o f u s u b m i tt e d t o y o u t h a t t h e r e w a s n o w a y w h e n h e w a s – w h e n h e w a s a r g u in g to y o u th e – t h a t M i n is te r G o r d h a n c o u ld n o t p o s s i b ly 10 h a v e r e li e d o n t h e N u g e n t R e p o r t s w h e n h e m a d e – w h e n h e s a i d t h a t t h is is w h y I b e l i e v e t h e r e is n o r o g u e u n it a n d h e m a d e t h a t f in d i n g . L e t u s j u s t r e c a l l w h a t w a s in f a c t g o i n g o n t h e r e . S o t h e a ll e g a t io n a g a in s t M i n i s te r G o r d h a n h a s o n l y e v e r r e l a te d to h i s r o l e i n t h e e s t a b li s h m e n t C o m m i s s i o n e r. of the u n it . That is when he was s t ill SAR S H e t h e n b e c a m e M i n is t e r o f F i n a n c e f o r t h e fi r s t t i m e a n d a s h a s b e e n c l e a r in th e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r R e v i e w t h a t i s p e n d i n g n e v e r p l a y e d a n y r o l e in t h e fu n c t io n a l o p e r a t io n o f th e u n i t . He has o n ly e v e r b e e n s a i d t o h a v e p l a y e d r o l e i n it s e s t a b l is h m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: I n J u d g e N u g e n t ’s in t e r i m r e p o r t w h ic h is d a t e d th e 2 7 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 8 w h ic h is b e f o r e M i n is te r G o r d h a n c o m e s a n d te s ti fi e s h e r e . A t p a r a g r a p h 3 6 a n d 3 7 J u s ti c e N u g e n t s a y s : “ I fi n d n o r e a s o n w h y t h e e s t a b li s h m e n t i n e x is t e n c e o f th e u n i t w a s i n d e e d u n la w f u l a n d I a m s u p p o r t e d in t h a t b y a n o p i n io n g iv e n to M r M o y a n e b y l e a d i n g Page 75 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 s e n i o r c o u n s e l i n l a te 2 0 1 5 . ” H e t h e n c o n ti n u e s a t p a r a g r a p h 3 7 . “ W h a t s p a r k e d t h i s o ff w a s a r e p o r t i n t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s a n d th a t is t h e s t a r t o f t h e s o c a ll e d r o g u e u n it n a r r a t iv e . ” S o w h e n M in is t e r G o r d h a n s a t in t h i s r o o m a n d w h e n h e c l a r if i e d in h i s s u b s e q u e n t a ff id a v i t th a t h i s b e li e f a b o u t – th a t h i s b e li e f a b o u t M r M o y a n e ’s r o l e in s ta t e c a p t u r e i n c lu d i n g t h e d is b a n d m e n t o f t h e u n i t a n d t h e r o g u e u n i t n a r r a t iv e t h a t i s t h e n b e i n g r e p e a te d a n d r e p e a t e d 10 a n d r e p e a t e d d e s p i t e i ts f a ls e h o o d h e w a s r e ly in g o n t h a t fi n d i n g b y N u g e n t w h ic h p r e d a t e d h i s e v i d e n c e . I t s a y : “I fi n d no reason why th e e s t a b li s h m e n t was unlawful.” A n d t h a t is th e o n l y p a r t o f M i n is t e r G o r d h a n ’s r o l e i n th e u n i t th a t h a s e v e r b e e n t h e s u b je c t o f a n y in q u ir y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : S o h e is p e r f e c t ly e n ti t le d to s a y I a m – m y g r o u n d , my b e l i e f o n th e N u g e n t fi n d i n g t h a t J u s t ic e N u g e n t c o u ld n o t fi n d w h y t h e e s t a b l is h m e n t o f t h e u n i t w a s u n l a w f u l . A n d t h is – th is – i t 20 is a l s o s o m e th i n g t h a t I d o h a v e t o p u t o n t h e r e c o r d p r e c is e l y b e c a u s e my learned fr ie n d a s t u te ly r e c o g n is e d that this c o m m i s s io n is s o m e t h i n g th a t t h e p u b l ic is w a tc h i n g . T h a t t h e c o u n tr y i s l o o k in g a t . A n d it is t o s a y th a t t h e a t t e m p t t o tr y t o in t r o d u c e i n t o th e s e p r o c e e d i n g s t h e fu ll n a r r a tiv e a r o u n d t h e in v e s t i g a t io n u n i t a t S A R S . N o t o n ly d o e s it f a l l o u ts i d e o f y o u r t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e b u t it r u n s th e Page 76 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 r is k o f th is c o m m i s s i o n l o s in g i ts c r e d i b i l it y a n d b e i n g c a p t u r e d i ts e l f w h e n i t i s u s e d a s a p l a t fo r m t o r u n t h i s n a r r a ti v e . B e c a u s e m y le a r n e d fr i e n d s to o d b e fo r e y o u … C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l b u t – b u t i t i s y o u r c li e n t w h o – w h o s a y s l o o k a t the Judge Nugent Report. ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: Ye s C h a ir s o l e t m e b e c l e a r w h a t I a m s a y in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is – h e is t h e o n e w h o s a y s l o o k a t t h e J u d g e N u g e n t Report. 10 ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: In d e e d . But let us be clear what the s u b m is s io n i s – w h a t t h e p o s i t io n i s . T h e p o s i ti o n i s t h e s a m e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I a m s o r r y l e t – s o th a t y o u c a n a d d r e s s th is f u l ly. A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r c li e n t s a y s : L o o k a t t h e N u g e n t – J u d g e N u g e n t R e p o r t . H e r e a r e t h e f in d in g s h e m a k e s . T h e s e fi n d i n g s a r e r e l e v a n t t o t h is c o m m i s s io n i n e ff e c t t h a t is w h a t h e s a y s . A n d t h e n I s a y t o y o u and I do not see you disagreeing with me. I say to you – but I cannot ju s t t a k e J u d g e N u g e n t f i n d in g s a n d m a k e t h e m m i n e . I h a v e g o t to e v a l u a t e – I h a v e g o t to h e a r e v id e n c e . I n o t h e r w o r d s th e m o m e n t y o u 20 s a y I m u s t l o o k a t t h e N u g e n t R e p o r t a n d it s fi n d i n g s a n d y o u s a y th e y a r e r e le v a n t y o u a r e th e o n e w h o a r e – w h o is n o w o p e n i n g … A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : B u t C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e p o s s i b i li ty o f m e h a v in g t o h e a r th i n g s th a t w e r e h e a r d b y th a t c o m m is s i o n . A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : C h a ir w e m u s t k e e p tw o th in g s v e r y c l e a r Page 77 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 a n d d is t in c t in l o o k in g a t th is q u e s t io n . T h e o n ly r e a s o n w h y M i n i s te r G o r d h a n r e fe r e n c e s t h e N u g e n t C o m m i s s io n i s t o e x p l a i n t o y o u t h e b a s is o f M i n is t e r G o r d h a n ’s p e r s o n a l b e l i e f a b o u t w h a t w e n t o n u n d e r To m M o y a n e ’s r e i g n a t S A R S . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: A s e p – a n e n t ir e ly s e p a r a t e q u e s t io n i n w h ic h th e e v i d e n c e o f Mr M o y a n e n o t t h e e v i d e n c e o f M i n is t e r G o r d h a n b e c a u s e h e h a s a lr e a d y g iv e n y o u e v e r y th i n g h e h a s o n t h i s t o p ic . CHAIRPERSON: Hm 10 ADV MICHELLE L E ROUX: Is to say was what went on at SARS part of s t a te c a p tu r e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: a g a in . S o th o s e a r e t w o v e r y d i ff e r e n t p o in ts M i n is te r G o r d h a n o n ly r e f e r e n c e s th e N u g e n t fi n d i n g s t o s a y t h a t i s w h y I b e li e v e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : T h a t my i n v o lv e m e n t in t h e e s t a b l is h m e n t o f t h e u n i t w a s la w f u l a n d w h y a ll o f th is n a r r a ti v e th a t g e ts r e p e a t e d a n d r e p e a t e d a n d n o w i s u s e d i n P u b lic Pr o t e c t o r R e p o r t s a n d h a te 20 s p e e c h p r o c e e d i n g s a n d o u ts i d e a n d p o l i ti c a l r a lli e s i s b e c a u s e o f – t h e r e is a c a m p a ig n a g a i n s t m e t h a t b e g a n w h e n I w h e n I w a s r e a p p o i n te d a s M i n i s te r o f F in a n c e a n d c o n t in u e s t o th is d a y. I m e a n t h e r e i s a c e r t a i n o p p o s i t io n p a r t y i n t h i s c o u n tr y t h a t s e e m s t o m a k e w e e k ly m e d ia s t a t e m e n t s a b o u t m y c li e n t . g e t t in g p e r p e t u a t e d o u ts id e . S o i t is a n a r r a tiv e t h a t i s Th a t i s a l l t h a t M i n is te r G o r d h a n s a y s Page 78 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 a b o u t i t a n d w h y h e r e f e r e n c e s th e N u g e n t C o m m i s s io n . We – it has n e v e r b e e n o u r s u b m is s i o n . CHAIRPERSON: But if – but if – if nobody… ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: T h a t y o u s h o u l d n o t l o o k a t To m M o y a n e a n d s t a te c a p tu r e . T h a t h a s n e v e r b e e n th e s u b m i s s i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : I f n o b o d y r e f e r e n c e s t h e N u g e n t C o m m i s s io n m a y b e I m i g h t n o t lo o k a t i t . A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : A n d C h a ir i t i s – i t is – I m e a n o b v i o u s ly i t is u s e f u l – s o a g a in le t m e – l e t m e tr y o n e m o r e t i m e to e x p l a in w h y 10 t h e s e a r e t w o d i ff e r e n t p o in ts . What went on at SARS under Mr M o y a n e a n d th e r o l e t h a t t h is n a r r a t iv e h a s p la y e d i n o u r p o li ti c s a n d t h e w a y t h a t i t i s u s e d b y th e p r o p o n e n t s a n d b e n e f ic i a r i e s o r s t a te c a p tu r e a n d c o r r u p ti o n a t N a ti o n a l a n d L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t l e v e l i s a n is s u e t h a t th is c o m m i s s i o n m a y w e l l b e i n t e r e s te d i n i n v e s ti g a t i n g a n d it p r o b a b l y f a l ls u n d e r y o u r t e r m o f r e f e r e n c e th a t d e a l s w i th t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n p r o c u r e m e n t a n d th e s t a te . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: A n d in v e s t ig a ti n g M r M o y a n e a n d h i m c o m i n g to u p a v e r s i o n a n d t e s t i fy a n d b e c r o s s - e x a m i n e d w o u ld 20 p r o b a b ly b e u s e f u l a n d o f a s s i s t a n c e t o t h e f u n c ti o n o f t h e c o m m i s s io n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: I t is n o t t o a ll o w M r M o y a n e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e M i n is t e r G o r d h a n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: W h e r e h e h a s o n ly e v e r g i v e n y o u th a t Page 79 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 s e c o n d h a n d i n f o r m a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : A n d t h a t i s t h e c r i tic a l p o i n t . CHAIRPERSON: Ys. ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: So – yes the – the – and I must just again b e c a u s e m y l e a r n e d fr i e n d p u t i t a l l o n t h e r e c o r d I m u s t b e g iv e n t h e o p p o r t u n i ty to r e b u t i t . He takes you through KPMG, Sikhakhane, K r o o n , P u b li c Pr o t e c to r. E a c h o n e o f t h o s e le g s o n w h ic h M r M o y a n e m a y w e l l r e l y h a v e b e e n d e s t r o y e d . T h e y h a v e b e e n d i s c r e d i te d . T h e 10 P u b l ic P r o te c t o r R e p o r ts a r e o n r e v i e w a n d t h e y h a v e n o t y e t b e e n d e t e r m i n e d b u t t h e r e i s a s e r i o u s l e g a l c h a l le n g e t o a l l o f t h e m . U n l ik e t h e p r o m is e d r e v i e w o f N u g e n t b y Mr M o y a n e . CHAIRPERSON: Well – well if the… ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: KPMG has withdrawn…. CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry – I am sorry Ms Le Roux. ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: Chair if I could just complete the point? C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o I d o n o t w a n t to f o r g e t t h is . A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 20 P l e a s e d o n o t f o r g e t y o u r p o i n ts . Is i t f a ir to t h e P u b l ic Pr o te c to r t o s a y h e r r e p o r t h a s b e e n d is c r e d i t e d i f t h e r e v ie w h a s n o t b e e n f in a l is e d ? A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : W e l l i t h a s b e e n – le t m e s a y i t h a s b e e n – is th e b a s e – it is c u r r e n tl y u n d e r a s e r i o u s le g a l c h a ll e n g e th a t w i ll b e d e c i d e d in d u e c o u r s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o – b u t i t i s n o t f a ir t o s a y … Page 80 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : S o I w it h d r a w t h e – A D V D A L I M P O F U : It is n o t f a ir t o s a y i t h a s b e e n d is c r e d i t e d . A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : I w it h d r a w t h e d is c r e d i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: I withdraw that. S o t h e l e g s t h a t M i s te r M p o fu r e f e r r e d t o S ik h a k h a n e R e p o r t s a id I fi n d t h a t t h e u n i t w a s e s t a b li s h e d u n l a w f u l ly. J u d g e N u g e n t s a y s a n d I h a v e r e a d to i t I fi n d no basis for saying that. Judge Nugent has discredited that leg. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w w h e n I … 10 A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : K P M G – K P M G h a s w i th d r a w n it s r e p o r t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: T h e S u n d a y Ti m e s h a s w i th d r a w n i ts a r ti c l e s a n d a p o lo g i s e d . J u d g e Kr o o n h a s d is a v o w e d h i s s t a te m e n t s i n h is e v id e n c e b e f o r e J u d g e N u g e n t a n d a p o l o g is e d t o t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e u n i t . To d a y w e a r e h e a r te n e d w h e n w e s e e m e d i a r e p o r ts t h a t s a y t h a t t h e n e w S A R S C o m m i s s i o n e r is r e - e s t a b li s h i n g th is c a p a c it y a n d i m p l e m e n ti n g t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s o f t h e N u g e n t R e p o r t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : S o t h e c o m m i s s i o n y o u w il l h a v e t o d e c id e 20 w h e t h e r a ll o w i n g o n e m o r e r e p e ti t io n o f a n a r r a t iv e t h a t is o n ly s e r v in g a p o li t ic a l c a m p a ig n a n d is n o t a c tu a lly g e t ti n g y o u t o t h e tr u t h o f w h a t h a p p e n e d s h o u l d b e e n te r t a in e d . T h a t is n o t f o r M i n is t e r G o r d h a n t o – to debate. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: S o t h e q u e s ti o n is s i m p ly i f M r M o y a n e Page 81 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 w e r e t o c o m e a n d g iv e y o u a v e r s io n o n w h a t h a p p e n e d a t S A R S . CHAIRPERSON: Hm ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: O n w h a t h a p p e n e d o n t h e W a t e r k lo o f la n d i n g . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: O n w h a t h a p p e n e d a t – w it h th e B o s a s a payments. CHAIRPERSON: Hm/ A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : A s h e – a s h i s n a m e w a s m e n ti o n e d . T h a t 10 w o u ld c e r t a i n ly a s s i s t t h i s c o m m is s i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : B u t t h a t t h e n m e a n s M in is t e r G o r d h a n m a y w e ll b e b a c k b u t i t is i n r e s p o n s e t o a v e r s io n fi n a ll y fr o m M r M o y a n e . S o t h is a p p l ic a t i o n w e s u b m it t h e r e a r e – t h e r e a r e r e a ll y o n ly – th e r e is r e a l ly o n ly o n e o u t c o m e h e r e g iv e n w h e r e w e a r e w h i c h i s t o d is m is s t h is r e s i d u a l is s u e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : G e t a fu ll v e r s io n fr o m M r M o y a n e o n a ll o f t h e t h i n g s h e c o u l d p o s s i b l y a s s is t t h is c o m m is s i o n w i th a n d t h e n w e 20 w i ll s e e w h e r e w e s t a n d . A n d p e r h a p s w h e n h e p u ts th a t v e r s io n u p h e m e n ti o n s m y c l ie n t a n d t h e c o m m i s s io n w i ll e n g a g e w i th u s a n d w e w i ll o b v i o u s l y a s s is t th e c o m m i s s io n a s m u c h a s w e c a n a s M i n is te r Gordhan has to date. C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y. ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: A n d t h a t is – t h a t m a y w e l l b e w h e r e w e Page 82 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 end up on this. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : A n d C h a ir t h e – j a – le t m e – u n l e s s t h e r e a r e f u r t h e r q u e s ti o n s I t h i n k t h a t is w h e r e I s h o u ld … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , n o t h a t i t is fi n e . ADV MICHELLE LE ROUX: I should leave it. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o I h a v e n o f u r th e r q u e s t io n s . A D V M I C H E L L E L E R O U X : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s l e t m e h e a r M r P r e to r i u s b e f o r e I c a n h a v e M r M p o fu in r e p l y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S : Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a i r I w il l b e b r i e f . T h e f a c tu a l is s u e s C h a i r a p p e a r t o b e fir s t ly w h y d i d Mr M o y a n e la y c h a r g e s i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e c o n d u c t o f M in i s t e r G o r d h a n ? S e c o n d ly w a s t h a t p a r t o f a s t a te c a p t u r e p r o je c t a s a p p e a r s a t l e a s t n o w t o b e a l le g e d b y M i n i s te r G o r d h a n a n d I w i ll g iv e y o u t h e r e f e r e n c e s i n a moment. A n d t h ir d ly w a s t h e l a y i n g o f c h a r g e s b a s e d o n r e a s o n a b l e a n d p r o b a b l e c a u s e a s a l le g e d b y Mr M o y a n e . is s u e s a r e n o t m u t u a ll y e x c lu s i v e . Of course those two I t is a t le a s t th e o r e t ic a l ly p o s s i b l e t h a t b o th w e r e c o r r e c t b u t th a t is a m a t t e r t h a t c a n b e d e a lt w i th i n th e 20 c o u r s e o f ti m e . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll a s I s e e i t t h e q u e s ti o n o f w h e t h e r M r M o y a n e a c t e d r e a s o n a b ly a n d w i th r e a s o n a b ly m a y b e a ls o w it h o u t p r o b a b l e c a u s e i s n e it h e r h e r e n o r t h e r e u n t il y o u s a y t h e r e w a s m a li c e . O r y o u s a y h e w a s a c ti n g in f u r t h e r a n c e o f s t a te c a p tu r e . I n o th e r w o r d s i f h e w a s – i f h e a c t e d u n r e a s o n a b ly t h a t o n it s o w n d o e s n o t b r i n g th a t Page 83 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 is s u e w it h in [i n d i s t i n c t ]. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : N o t w i t h i n y o u r t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Th a t i s t h e p o i n t t o w h ic h I w o u l d n o w l ik e to m o v e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : C h a ir b e c a u s e b o t h a r e p o s s i b l e h e c o u l d h a v e a c t e d w i t h r e a s o n a b l e c a u s e , h e c o u ld h a v e a c t e d w it h o u t r e a s o n a b l e c a u s e . T h e is s u e fo r d e te r m in a ti o n w h e t h e r in t h e t e r m s o f 10 r e fe r e n c e i s th e a l le g a ti o n a s t o w h e t h e r t h a t w a s p a r t o f th e s t a t e c a p tu r e p r o je c t o r n o t . M a l ic e is a la b e l t h a t i s p l a c e d o n t h e c o n d u c t b u t i t i s th e u n d e r ly in g c o n d u c t o f c o u r s e t h a t is i m p o r ta n t r a t h e r th a n t h e l a b e l w h ic h is g i v e n t o it o r i t is c a t e g o r is a t i o n a l th o u g h i t m a y b e c o m e l e g a l ly r e le v a n t a t a la t e r s ta g e . B u t m a y I ju s t p u t t o y o u C h a ir t h a t t h e r e is a t t h e v e r y le a s t u n c e r ta i n t y a n d c o n f u s i o n a b o u t w h o i s s a y i n g w h a t. A t p a g e 8 o f y o u r p a p e r s CHAIRPERSON: Hm A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : M in is t e r G o r d h a n s a y s in p a r a g r a p h 1 2 in t h a t q u o t e 20 “ C h a r g e s a g a in s t m e r e l a t i n g t o t h a t u n i t h a d b e e n fi le d b y M r M o y a n e . ” Then in paragraph 57 – paragraph 15 on page 8 rather he says: “ T h a t e n tir e p r o c e s s o f in v e s ti g a t i o n a n d t h e b r in g in g a n d w i t h d r a w a l o f c h a r g e s a g a i n s t m e b y t h e N PA w a s p a r t o f a c a m p a i g n t o c a p t u r e s t a t e i n s t it u ti o n s . ” Page 84 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : S o i t s e e m s w h a t M i n is t e r G o r d h a n s u b j e c t to c l a r i f ic a t i o n a n d I w il l c o m e b a c k to t h a t p o i n t m i g h t b e s a y in g is t h a t th e l a y i n g o f c h a r g e s w a s p a r t o f a c a m p a i g n o f s t a t e c a p tu r e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : I t is f u r t h e r c la r i fi e d in p a r a g r a p h 3 1 on page 14 where he says in paragraph 31 “ C o n s i d e r i n g m y i n te r a c t io n s w i t h M r M o y a n e o v e r 10 t h is p e r i o d a n d t h e s u b s e q u e n t fi n d i n g s i n th e N u g e n t In q u ir y m y p e r s o n a l b e l ie f r e m a i n s a n d I e m p h a s is e t h e w o r d r e m a in s t h a t Mr M o y a n e a b u s e d h is p o s i ti o n a s t h e fo r m e r S A R S C o m m i s s i o n e r t o in s t i tu t e c r i m i n a l p r o c e e d in g s a g a i n s t m e a n d o t h e r s s in c e t h e r e w a s n o r e a s o n a b l e b a s i s f o r h i m t o d o so.” A n d t h e n i n p a r a g r a p h 3 3 h e s a id : “ I t a l s o s e r v e d w h e t h e r d e li b e r a t e l y o r n o t n e e d s c la r i fi c a t io n th e p o l i tic a l p u r p o s e o f a t t e m p ti n g t o 20 p r e s s u r e m e a n d o t h e r s t o r e s i g n t h e r e b y a d v a n c in g s t a te c a p t u r e a n d th e c a p t u r e o f N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y i n p a r t ic u l a r. ” And then if one goes… C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Fi n a l l y to p a r a g r a p h 2 2 . 4 M i n i s t e r Page 85 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 Gordhan says: “ To u s e t h e w o r d s o f t h e c h a ir p e r s o n ’s d ir e c ti o n s I t h e r e f o r e d o m e a n th a t M r M o y a n e w a s m o t iv a t e d w h o lly o r i n p a r t o r h e s o u g h t t o a d v a n c e t h e o b j e c ti v e s o f s t a t e c a p tu r e a n d t h a t h e w a s a b u s in g a le g a l p r o c e s s f o r h is o w n p e r s o n a l g o a l s th a t h a d e i t h e r n o t h i n g o r l it t le to d o w i th th e l e g i ti m a t e c o m p la i n t r e la t in g to a n a ll e g e d c r i m e . ” CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : A n d t h e n h e s a y s q u i t e c l e a r l y in paragraph 22.5 “ I b e li e v e t h a t M r M o y a n e ’s p e r s o n a l g o a l s w h il e h e w a s S A R S C o m m i s s io n e r in c l u d e d t h e a d v a n c e m e n t o f t h e s ta t e c a p t u r e p r o je c t. ” CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : So leave aside all that at the very le a s t o n e c a n s a y t h e r e is c o n fu s i o n a b o u t w h a t M r G o r d h a n C H A I R P E R S O N : Is s a y i n g . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : I s s a y i n g a b o u t M r M o y a n e . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Th a t b e i n g a li t t le g e n e r o u s I th in k t o M i n is te r G o r d h a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M p o f u n o d s . ADV PA U L JOSEPH P R E TO R I U S : But e x a m in a ti o n o f c o u r s e i s t o c la r i fy. Page 86 of 182 the purpose of cross- 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : N o t o n ly t o c h a ll e n g e b u t i t is a ls o t o c l a r if y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : O f c o u r s e t h a t s a m e o b j e c t m a y b e a c h i e v e d fr o m a s t a t e m e n t o f c la r i fi c a t io n b y M in is t e r G o r d h a n b u t t h a t is a d e c is i o n y o u w il l m a k e C h a ir. I f I m a y ju s t r a is e a n o t h e r is s u e ? O f c o u r s e t h e s e is s u e s a r e d e a lt w i t h i n a n u m b e r o f o t h e r f o r a a n d b y a number of other instances. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : I n a r e l a te d w a y p o s s ib ly t h e N u g e n t C o m m i s s i o n , t h e P u b li c Pr o t e c to r a n d o t h e r s . Th is c o m m i s s i o n is n o t a r e v ie w o r a p p e a l b o d y a n d i t is n o t h e r e t o s e c o n d g u e s s o r c o m m e n t r e a l ly in a n y d e c is iv e w a y a n d I s tr e s s d e c is iv e w a y. Collateral c o m m e n t m a y b e p o s s i b l e o n th o s e i n s t a n c e s . S o i f c r o s s - e x a mi n a ti o n is t o b e g r a n t e d C h a ir i t m u s t b e a . I n a c c o r d a n c e w i th o u r o w n r u l e s a n d b . B a s e d o n e v i d e n c e g iv e n b e f o r e y o u a s C o m m i s s io n e r. So in that respect there must be a version. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : M r M o y a n e m u s t c l e a r ly s t a te w h a t h is v e r s i o n is i n r e l a ti o n t o a ll th e a ll e g a t i o n s t h a t m i g h t r e m a in a t a n y stage. CHAIRPERSON: Hm A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : A f t e r c l a r i f ic a ti o n . Page 87 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 C H A I R P E R S O N : O f c o u r s e w e h a v e to b e c le a r w h a t … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : O r o t h e r w i s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr G o r d h a n ’s i s a ls o s a y in g . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : C o r r e c t . C o r r e c t C h a ir. T h a t m i g h t a l le v i a te t h e d i ff ic u l t ie s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : T h a t a r i s e o u t o f t a k in g a l l t h e s e is s u e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S : F u r th e r. T h e n C h a ir y o u r a is e d th e is s u e o f n a r r o w i n g t h e is s u e in t o m a n a g e a b l e p r o p o r ti o n s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : G i v e n th e r e a l c o n s tr a in ts o f t i m e and resources. CHAIRPERSON: Hm A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S : U n d e r w h ic h w e o p e r a t e . A n d C h a ir m a y I s u g g e s t t h a t t h e f o r m u la t io n o n p a g e 1 o f y o u r c o m m u n ic a t i o n to t h e p a r ti e s o f t h e 6 M a y 2 0 1 9 . “ 1 a . I n l a y i n g th e c h a r g e s a g a in s t Mr G o r d h a n a n d 20 o th e r s w a s M r M o y a n e m o ti v a t e d w h o l ly o r in p a r t o r he sought to advance the o b j e c t iv e s of s ta t e c a p tu r e . ” C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Th a t r e a l ly i s t h e c r i s p is s u e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 88 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : A n d n o o th e r is s u e fa ll s w i th i n y o u r terms of reference. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : F i n a ll y ju s t a c o m m e n t o n t h e p o in t r a i s e d a b o u t y o u h a v i n g m a d e a r u li n g a n d t h e r e fo r e n o t e n ti tl e d t o m a k e a n y f u r th e r r u l in g . I t s e e m s c le a r C h a ir t h a t in t h e l ig h t o f th e f u r th e r s ta t e m e n t s p u t b e fo r e y o u a t t h e v e r y l e a s t y o u a r e f r e e t o m a k e a r u li n g a n d in f a c t o b l ig e d t o m a k e a r u l i n g t o c l a r i f y a n y u n c e r t a i n ty. W h e t h e r b y c r o s s - e x a m i n a ti o n o r o th e r w i s e . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . Mr M p o fu . I h a v e g o t t o r e s tr ic t y o u q u i te s e r i o u s ly t h i s t i m e o t h e r w is e w e w i ll n o t fi n is h . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: But I am sure that you – your response would be q u i te p o i n te d . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . C h a ir l e t m e – f ir s tl y I m u s t j u s t o n a li g h te r n o t e I a m w a r y o n M r P r e to r i u s s u p p o r ts m y – t h e l a s t ti m e h e d id t h a t t h e a p p lic a ti o n w a s d i s m is s e d . CHAIRPERSON: B u t I s a w th a t a s h e w a s r e f e r r i n g to v a r io u s paragraphs you were nodding. 20 A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s I w a s n o d d in g b u t – I w a s p a r tic u la r ly n o d d i n g w h e n h e w a s s a y i n g h e is b e in g g e n e r o u s t o M r G o r d h a n b e c a u s e C h a ir o n a s e r i o u s n o t e t h a t r e a lly is a c o r r e c t s t a te m e n t . I do not u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir p e r s o n h o w c o u n s e l c a n s t a n d h e r e a n d t h e C h a ir a s k s h e r t w i c e a r e y o u s a y i n g t h a t M i n i s t e r G o r d h a n is n o t s a y i n g t h a t M r M o y a n e w a s m o t iv a t e d b y t h e a d v a n c e m e n t o f s ta t e c a p t u r e ? Page 89 of 182 And 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 C h a ir h e r a n s w e r i s i n d e e d C h a ir. H o w y o u c a n d o th a t C h a ir i n t h e li g h t o f M r G o r d h a n ’s s w o r n a ffi d a v i t w h i c h s a y s a s M r Pr e t o r i u s h a s ju s t r e a d o u t a t p a r a g r a p h 2 2 . 5 I t h i n k . M r G o r d h a n s a y s : “ I d o s a y th a t Mr M o y a n e w a s m o ti v a t e d b y s t a t e c a p tu r e m o ti v e s . ” I m e a n h o w c a n w e c a n d o t h a t y o u k n o w if y o u a r e t o ta k e t h i s p r o c e e d i n g s s e r io u s ly ? I f t h a t i s s o – i f w h a t h i s c o u n s e l is s a y in g n o w is h is n e w v e r s i o n w e l l th a t is e v e n m o r e r e a s o n f o r c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n b e c a u s e i t m e a n s h e is n o w c o n t r a d i c ti n g w h a t h e s a y s u n d e r o a th in 10 t h e a ff i d a v i t . B e c a u s e n o w w e m u s t a s s u m e t h a t w h a t h is c o u n s e l i s s a y in g is s a i d b y h i m v i a h e r. S o th e n e w v e r s i o n n o w is th a t a l l t h e – s h e s a y s I o n l y e v e r s a i d M r G o r d h a n o n ly e v e r s a id M r M o y a n e w a s t h e o r ig in o f w h a t t u r n e d o u t t o b e s t a te c a p tu r e b y o th e r s . t h a t i s – t h i s is a f ir s t ti m e w e h e a r t h a t . W h a t w e k n o w is w h a t M r Gordhan said here and what Mr Gordhan says here. d e c e p ti v e ly th e w o r d s a r e t a k e n o u t fr o m y o u r le t t e r. c o r r e c t ly r e a d s t h e m o u t p r o p e r ly. Where – Remember and Mr Pr e t o r i u s R e m e m b e r y o u r le t t e r s a i d – th e q u e s t io n i s i n l a y i n g t h e c h a r g e s n o t in d o i n g s o m e t h in g e ls e i n l a y in g t h e c h a r g e s a g a i n s t M r G o r d h a n w a s Mr M o y a n e m o t iv a t e d w h o l ly o r i n 20 p a r t b y o r h e s o u g h t t o a d v a n c e th e o b j e c ti v e s o f s t a t e c a p t u r e a n d t h a t he was abusing the legal process and so and so on. Mr – to that q u e s t io n w h i c h y o u a s k e d C h a i r M r G o r d h a n s a y s t o u s e t h e w o r d s o f t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t is a t p a r a g r a p h 2 2 . 4 I t h e r e f o r e d o m e a n t h a t M r M o y a n e w a s m o tiv a t e d w h o lly o r i n p a r t b y t h e – a n d s o u g h t t o a d v a n c e t h e o b j e c t iv e s o f s t a te c a p t u r e . A n d h is c o u n s e l n o w s a y s n o h e n e v e r Page 90 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 s a i d th a t . T h e o n ly t h i n g h e e v e r s a i d w a s t h a t h e w a s j u s t a tr i g g e r a n d th e n o t h e r s t o o k o v e r. I m e a n t h a t i s j u s t a l ie , a b l u e li e . A n d i f – ju s t o n t h a t b a s is a l o n e M r G o r d h a n s h o u ld n o t b e g iv e n a n o th e r c h a n c e t o d o a n o th e r c l a r if ic a to r y a ffi d a v i t . H e m u s t c o m e u n d e r c r o s s e x a m in a ti o n a n d te ll u s w h i c h is h is v e r s i o n . I s h is v e r s i o n t h e o n e th a t h e s w o r e u n d e r o a th h e r e o r t h e o n e th a t h is c o u n s e l h a s n o w in tr o d u c e d w h ic h is t h a t h e d is t a n c e s h i m s e l f fr o m a n y t h i n g th a t h a p p e n e d a ft e r h e l a i d t h e c h a r g e s ? I m e a n r e a lly. S o th is t h in g w il l n e v e r e n d C h a ir w e w il l b e h e r e f o r e v e r i f f o r e v e r y ti m e w e w il l b e 10 d o i n g a c l a r i fic a t o r y a ffi d a v i t , a n o th e r c l a r i fi c a t o r y a ffi d a v it . T h e r e is – M r Pr e to r i u s i s q u i t e r i g h t. A t b e s t y o u c a n s a y th e r e is c o n f u s i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : I s a y t h e r e is n o c o n f u s io n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : It is v e r y c l e a r w h a t M r G o r d h a n is s a y i n g . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d a ll h e m u s t d o i s e i t h e r t o j u s ti fy it o r n o t – ju s t i fy i t o r w i th d r a w i t i f h e w a n ts b u t u n d e r c r o s s - e x a m i n a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm 20 A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d t h e n h e m u s t e x p l a i n w h y h e – h e u n d e r o a th t o G o d h a d s a i d tw o d i ff e r e n t t h i n g s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h a t i s e x a c t ly t h e p u r p o s e o f c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n . N u m b e r 2 C h a ir. T h e – I m u s t ju s t c l a r i fy s o m e t h i n g . M r M o y a n e s a i d in h is a ff id a v i t a n d i n c a s e a g a i n I a m – h e is s a y i n g i t t h r o u g h m e . M r Page 91 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 M o y a n e s a id i n h is a ffi d a v i t h e is w i ll in g t o c o m e a n d te s ti fy h e r e . S o t h is n o ti o n th a t h e is – h e m u s t c o m e a n d t a lk a b o u t t h e a ir f o r c e a n d w h a t w h a t h e is p r e p a r e d t o c o m e h e r e . s e p a r a t e tr a n s a c ti o n . B u t t h a t is a c o m p l e t e ly T h a t h a s n o t h i n g t o d o w i th h is r i g h t t o c r o s s - e x a m in e M r G o r d h a n . S o M r M o y a n e c a n c o m e a n d te s t i fy a n d a s s i s t t h e c o m m i s s i o n a n d t h a t w il l t a k e i ts o w n c o u r s e b u t r i g h t n o w h e i s b u s y w it h o n e t h in g a n d o n e t h i n g o n ly t o a p p ly t o c r o s s - e x a m in e M r G o r d h a n in s o f a r a s M r G o r d h a n h a s t e s ti f ie d . S o w h e t h e r M r M o y a n e w a s g o i n g t o t e s ti f y o r n o t t e s t if y h i s r i g h ts o r h is e n t it l e m e n t to t h a t 10 c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n i s u n t o u c h e d . T h e n e x t is s u e C h a i r is t h a t th e – M r M o y a n e ’s v e r s io n th e r e i s th is th i n g a b o u t M r M o y a n e ’s v e r s io n . M o y a n e ’s v e r s i o n i s t h e r e C h a i r p e r s o n . Mr Th e r e is n o t h i n g fo r h i m t o come and C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e S ik h a k h a n e R e p o r t, t h e I G I R e p o r t. A D V D A L I M P O F U : N o , n o . N o C h a ir. Ye s th a t – t h a t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV DALI MPOFU: C h a ir p e r s o n b u t h e p u ts i t v e r y c le a r ly i n t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t p a g e 2 6 5 . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 A D V D A L I M P O F U : P a g e 2 6 5 h e s a y s ? R e m e m b e r th is w h o le d e b a t e c o m e s fr o m t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t a n d t h e C h a ir i n y o u r r u li n g y o u a c t u a ll y m a d e i t c le a r. B e c a u s e a t fir s t y o u s a i d w e l l h e d id n o t c la r i fy t h is . A n d th e n in h is s u p p le m e n t a r y a ff id a v i t h e t h e n – w h ic h is w h a t s p a r k e d t h e C h a ir t o g iv e t h is r u l in g . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 92 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 A D V D A L I M P O F U : H e t h e n s a y s t h a t h e q u o t e s , h e d o e s a ll t h e th i n g s t h a t t h e C h a ir a s k e d f o r in t h e r u l in g . S a y s h o w h e is i m p l ic a te d a n d t h e n s a y s t h a t t h i s m e a n s t h a t t h e r e is v i n d ic ti v e n e s s a n d m a l ic e a n d s o o n b u t m o r e i m p o r t a n t h e s a y s a t p a r a g r a p h 1 3 m y v e r s io n . I t is h e r e s o t h e r e i s n o n e e d f o r h i m t o g iv e a n o th e r v e r s i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : M y v e r s i o n is o f c o u r s e t h a t I w a s n o t j u s ti f ie d b u t d u t y - b o u n d to a c t a s I d id a n d t h a t a n y r e a s o n a b le S A R S C o m m i s s i o n e r in t h e s a m e p o s i ti o n w o u l d h a v e d o n e t h e s a m e . 10 I t is t h e r e f o r e m y s tr o n g c a s e t h a t G o r d h a n ’s e v i d e n c e l e d b e f o r e th is c o m m i s s io n w h ic h i m p l ic a t e s me in any wrongdoing must be v ie w e d a g a in s t this b a c k g r o u n d a n d d e c l a r e d t o b e f a l s e , u n c o n c e i v e d a n d v e r y f a r fr o m b e i n g o b j e c ti v e o r c r e d i b l e . I t m u s t a c c o r d i n g ly b e r e j e c t e d . I w il l e l a b o r a t e f u r t h e r o n th is a s p e c t w h e n I te s ti fy. ADV DALI MPOFU: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: I n o th e r w o r d s t h e r e is n o r e q u ir e m e n t a n d t h a t is a n o t h e r q u a l m w e h a v e w i t h o u r – w i th y o u r r u li n g C h a ir a s a n a s i d e . T h e r e is – t h is t h i n g th a t y o u m u s t p u t y o u r v e r s i o n o r y o u m u s t r e j e c t o r w h a t e v e r is n o t w h a t I w o u ld c a l l th e m o t io n c o u r t t e s t . 20 That you m u s t n o w p u t c h a p t e r a n d v e r s e o f e v e r y b a s is u p o n w h ic h y o u – y o u a n d t e ll t h e p e r s o n t h a t y o u a r e g o i n g to b e c r o s s - e x a m i n i n g e v e r y w o r d t h a t y o u a r e g o in g t o s a y. W h a t is n e e d e d i s a h y b r i d w h e r e y o u m u s t r e j e c t a n d th e n s a y w h a t th e b a s i s i s . A n d t h i s i s w h a t h e d i d . H e s a y s I r e j e c t i t b e c a u s e a n d w e k n o w t h a t g o e s to t h e I G I a n d a ll t h o s e things. Page 93 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll - w e l l th e u n d e r s t a n d i n g - th e u n d e r s t a n d in g a n d of course you s u b m is s io n s . know whenever it is relevant you could make T h e g e n e r a l u n d e r s t a n d i n g i s th a t th e r e m u s t b e - y o u m u s t p u t y o u r v e r s i o n . Yo u m u s t … A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A fa c tu a l b a s is fo r - f o r w h a t y o u p u t i n i s s u e a n d s o o n b e c a u s e t h is b e i n g a n in q u ir y o n e i s q u i te i n t e r e s te d t o e s t a b l is h what is common cause and (intervenes). A D V D A L I M P O F U : Wa s a s s is t e d . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : F a ir e n o u g h . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : F a ir e n o u g h C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V D A L I M P O F U : N o . I - I a c c e p t th a t o n e c a n n o t j u s t p u t a b o i le d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , ja . A D V D A L I M P O F U : B u t I a m s a y in g C h a i r i f y o u g o t o p a r a g r a p h s 1 3 , 1 4 , 1 5 , 1 6 o f M r - 1 6 , 1 7 , 1 8 , 1 9 , 2 0 o f Mr M o y a n e ’s s u p p le m e n t a r y 20 a ffi d a v i t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : It g i v e s y o u t h e v e r s i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: He says what I have just said and then says: “ T h e e v i d e n c e c o n t a in e d … ” Page 94 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : “ … i n t h e a n s w e r is fr e e ly a v a il a b l e i n t h e court …” CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: “ I w i s h to d r a w s p e c i fi c a t te n ti o n t o t w o d o c u m e n ts r e f e r r e d t o th e S ik h a k h a n e P a n e l … ” CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: “…and the I - IGI report …” CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 ADV DALI MPOFU: And then it says: “ I n a n u t s h e l l t h e - i t c o r r o b o r a t e s m y lo n g h e l d v ie w th a t i n te r a li a M r G o r d h a n is p r i m a fa c i e c r i m i n a ll y li a b l e i n r e s p e c t o f th e r o g u e u n i t . ” And so … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : S o th e v e r s i o n is h e r e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: T h e r e i s n o n e e d a , to g iv e Mr G o r d h a n a n o t h e r o p p o r t u n i ty to c l a r i fy w h a t i s c l e a r … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d b , t h e r e is n o r o o m f o r th e C h a ir t o s a y M r … CHAIRPERSON: W e l l I g u e s s - I g u e s s t h a t i f - i f h is C o u n s e l - h is C o u n s e l ’s u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f M r G o r d h a n ’s a ffi d a v i t is - o n e g o e s o n e w a y. M y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f i t g o e s a d i ff e r e n t w a y. u n d e r s t a n d in g o f i t m i g h t b e g o in g m y w a y o r s o m e w a y … Page 95 of 182 M r Pr e t o r i u s ’ 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 A D V D A L I M P O F U : O r m a y w a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : B e tw e e n - o r y o u r w a y o r y o u r w a y. ADV DALI MPOFU: A n y w a y I a m t h e s a m e p e r s o n C h a ir. Th e u n d e r s t a n d in g - y o u j u s t h a v e t o r e a d . E v e n a tw o y e a r c h i ld w il l - w il l r e a d t h e a ffi d a v it a n d s a y s I d o s a y h e w a s m o ti v a t e d b y S t a t e C a p tu r e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : It is n o t a q u e s ti o n o f u n d e r s t a n d in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. L e t u s w r a p u p - l e t u s w r a p u p . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s , y e s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV DALI MPOFU: S o C h a ir o n t h a t a n d - a n d t h is is a c r u c ia l p o i n t b e c a u s e a s I s a y o t h e r w is e t h i s t h i n g w il l g o o n fo r e v e r. C h a ir a n y b o d y c a n s ta n d u p a n d s a y i t is s u n - S u n d a y to d a y b u t t h e - th e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y i t is c le a r ? A D V D A L I M P O F U : I t is - i t is - c l e a r is a n u n d e r s ta t e m e n t C h a ir. I f a m a n s a y s I d o s a y h e w a s m o t iv a t e d b y S t a te C a p t u r e … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : In la y i n g t h e c h a r g e s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 20 ADV DALI MPOFU: What more … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : N e e d s to b e c l a r if i e d r e a ll y ? CHAIRPERSON: hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : W h a t m o r e C h a ir ? CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 96 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 A D V D A L I M P O F U : Yo u k n o w. L e t u s … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : O th e r w is e w e w il l b e c la r i fy i n g h e r e fo r e v e r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : R e m e m b e r t h a t is w h y y o u a s k e d fo r c l a r if ic a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : In - a s I s a i d e a r li e r C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : In m y s u b mi s s io n e v e n … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w a s c l a r i ty e v e n t h e n ? A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h e r e w a s n o e q u iv o c a ti o n e v e n b e fo r e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : B u t l e t u s - le t u s f o r a m o m e n t s a y t h e r e w a s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV DALI MPOFU: T h a t e q u iv o c a ti o n w a s c la r i fi e d b e y o n d a n y d o u b t by Mr Gordhan … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : U n d e r o a t h i n a n a ff i d a v i t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 20 A D V D A L I M P O F U : If t h e r e w a s e q u i v o c a t io n . Th e o n e w a y t h e o t h e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV DALI MPOFU: S o t h e r e is n o b o d y w h o c a n s t a n d h e r e n o w a n d say that … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: H e is n o t s a y i n g w h a t h e s a i d a n d a s I s a y i f - i f Page 97 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 in d e e d th a t i s s o … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: H e is g u i l ty o f p e r ju r y. A c tu a l ly i f h e c o m e s w i th a n o t h e r a ff id a v i t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h a t s a y s t h e o p p o s i t e o f th is . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : W e w i ll g o a n d l a y c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s o f p e r ju r y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 A D V D A L I M P O F U : B e c a u s e h e w il l b e l y i n g … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: Because he said - he did say here … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : C l e a r ly w h a t is ; l a s t p o i n t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV DALI MPOFU: T h e - th e q u e s ti o n - t h i s - t h i s th i n g a b o u t J u d g e N u g e n t I w a n t to e l a b o r a te o n i t b e c a u s e t h e C h a ir h a s c o r r e c tl y p o i n t e d o u t th a t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 A D V D A L I M P O F U : Yo u a r e n o t b o u n d b y w h a t e v e r J u d g e N u g e n t s a id … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : B u t e v e n - e v e n o n M r G o r d h a n ’s v e r s io n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: C h a ir h e s a y s n o m o r e t h a n t h a t . Page 98 of 182 He - he says 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 what we now know … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: I n o t h e r w o r d s n o w in M a y w h e n e v e r h e s i g n e d t h a t th i n g . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: Is t h a t J u s ti c e N u g e n t s a id th is a n d th a t a n d th e o th e r. CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : S o th a t is c o m p l e te ly i r r e le v a n t . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : It h a s g o t n o t h i n g t o d o w i th w h a t h e k n e w … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : W h e n h e w a s s it t in g h e r e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : W h e n - w h e n th e J u d g e g a v e th e - th e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: H e s a y s t h a t i n h is o w n w o r d s b u t a g a i n o n t h i s t h i n g o f s e le c tiv e r e a d i n g . Th is is w h a t M r G o r d h a n - M r N u g e n t s a id a t 243. 20 “ I h a v e n o t y e t f o u n d w h y t h e c r e a ti o n a n d t h e - n o t y e t - w h y t h e c r e a ti o n a n d e x is te n c e o f t h e u n i t w a s s a i d t o b e u n l a w f u l, w h i c h is h o w i t w a s c o n s i s te n tl y u n c r i t ic a l ly d e p ic t e d . I f in d n o r e a s o n w h y t h e e s t a b li s h m e n t o f t h e u n i t w a s i n d e e d u n l a w fu l , a n d I a m s u p p o r t e d b y th e o p i n i o n o f … ; a s f a r a s I a m Page 99 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 a w a r e th a t o p in i o n w a s n e v e r p u b lic a lly d i s c lo s e d . ” And then he says: “ I t m i g h t b e t h a t s o m e o f th e a c t iv it i e s o f o n e o r m o r e o f s ix m e m b e r s w a s u n l a w fu l b u t th a t is s o m e t h i n g e ls e . If th a t w a s i n d e e d th e c a s e i t is n o n e th e le s s i n c r e d i b l e t h a t u n l a w f u l a c ts o f o n e o r m o r e s ix m e n l e d t o m il li o n s o f R a n d s b e i n g s p e n t . ” S o h e is c r i t ic is i n g th e f a c t th a t t h e r e - t h e r e w a s m o r e t h a n o n e i n v e s t ig a ti o n , b u t h e s a y s : 10 “ I t m ig h t w e ll b e t h a t t h e r e w a s u n la w f u l n e s s . ” A n d i n a n o th e r r e p o r t h e s a y s : “ I f th e r e is s u c h u n l a w f u l n e s s it m u s t b e ta k e n to the …” So to come here and say Judge Nugent found that the rogue u n i t t o b e l a w fu l is ju s t a n o t h e r b l a ta n t li e b e c a u s e h e d i d n o t - h e s a i d h e d i d n o t - h e w ill n o t i n v e s ti g a t e i t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: A n d i f t h e r e w a s a n u n la w f u l n e s s i t s h o u ld b e r e fe r r e d … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: And he says he has not yet found … C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I - I a m c e r t a in ly n o t to i n th is - n o t a t th is s t a g e . I d o n o t w h ic h to g e t in v o lv e d i n t o … A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e la w f u l n e s s o r o t h e r w is e … Page 100 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 A D V D A L I M P O F U : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: Of that unit … ADV DALI MPOFU: Of the report. CHAIRPERSON: But in terms of what I have read and I cannot say I h a v e r e a d e v e r y th i n g b u t I d id lo o k a t t h e p a r t o f t h e J u d g e N u g e n t r e p o r t t h a t r e l a t e s to t h a t p a r t … ADV DALI MPOFU: Huh-uh. C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t t h e l a w f u ln e s s o f t h e u n i t a n d I m a y a l s o h a v e lo o k e d a t w h a t t h e S ik h a k h a n e r e p o r t … 10 A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Said but I am not 100 percent sure … A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I - I c a m e o u t w i th a n i m p r e s s i o n t h a t w a s s a y in g it is a p i t y t h a t a t l e a s t w h a te v e r i t is t h a t I h a d r e a d … ADV DALI MPOFU: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: A n d i t d i d i n c l u d e J u d g e N u g e n t ’s r e p o r t t h a t t h e r e w a s n o a n a l y s i s o f a n y c o n s t it u t io n a l p r o v i s io n s o f s ta t u t e t o s a y th is i s t h e s t a tu t e th a t s a y s t h i s . ADV DALI MPOFU: Hm. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Th is is w h a t h a p p e n e d . Th is is w h a t h a p p e n e d a n d therefore … A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is - t h i s is t h e c o n c lu s i o n . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Is th is , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e e x t e n t th a t I m i g h t h a v e s e e n t h e S ik h a k h a n e Page 101 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 r e p o r t . I d o n o t r e m e m b e r t h a t i t d i d - d id t h a t . I t m i g h t h a v e r e f e r r e d to one section of some Act. I am not sure but I have not come across a n y d o c u m e n t th a t g iv e s a p r o p e r a n a ly s i s o r d e t a il e d a n a ly s is t o s a y to be lawful such a unit needed to be … A D V D A L I M P O F U : To d o t h i s a n d t h a t. C H A I R P E R S O N : D o t h is a n d t h a t i n t e r m s o f t h a t le g i s l a ti o n . ADV DALI MPOFU: Well Chair … CHAIRPERSON: Th is w a s d o n e o r t h i s w a s n o t d o n e a n d s o m e b o d y e ls e s a y i n g b u t th a t l e g i s l a ti o n is n o t a p p l ic a b l e b e c a u s e to t h i s a n d 10 t h a t a n d th a t … A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a g a i n t h a t is s o m e t h i n g I s h o u l d n o t b o t h e r my s e l f w i t h a t t h is s t a g e . A D V D A L I M P O F U : W e l l C h a i r I w il l b o t h e r y o u w i t h it a li t tl e b it . Th is is w h a t h e s a i d : “ I n s t e a d o f r e q u e s t in g t h e d e p a r t m e n ta l i n … ” S ik h a k h a n e b y t h e w a y d o e s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : D o a n a n a ly s is … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : O f t h e l e g is l a t i o n t h a t is w h y I s a i d i t is u n la w f u l … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : B u t p u t th a t a s i d e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V D A L I M P O F U : In t h e I G I r e p o r t it s a y s : Page 102 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 “ I n s t e a d o f r e q u e s ti n g d e p a r t m e n t a l i n t e ll i g e n c e fr o m th e d e s i g n a te d a g e n c i e s a s c o n t e m p l a te d i n t h e N a ti o n a l S tr a t e g ic I n t e ll i g e n c e A c t 1 9 9 4 i t w a s u n l a w f u l f o r S A R S t o t a k e it u p o n t h e m s e l v e s to e s t a b li s h in t e l li g e n c e . s tr u c t u r e s for the c o ll e c t io n of S u c h s tr u c t u r e s e x i s t e d o u ts id e th e s c r u t i n y o f t h e In s p e c t o r - G e n e r a l o f I n te ll i g e n c e . It is th e r e fo r e n o t s u r p r is in g th a t th e a l le g a ti o n s a r e fr o m p r o p r i e ty a r e l e v e l l e d a g a i n s t th e s a i d S A R S c o v e r t s tr u c t u r e . I t w a s o n th e b a s i s o f t h is t h a t i t 10 w a s c o n c lu d e d t h a t M in is t e r G o r d h a n w h o w a s p a r t o f t h e e s ta b lis h m e n t o f t h e u n i t a n d k n e w a b o u t i ts a c ti v i ti e s s h o u l d b e c h a r g e d c r i m in a lly. ” So … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. L e t u s - l e t u s le a v e i t t h a t . A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h e r e is n o d o u b t a b o u t t h a t , ja … C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s l e a v e i t a t th a t . A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d - a n d t h a t is th e fi r s t t h i n g . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 20 A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h e P u b li c Pr o t e c t o r a ls o s a y s t h e s a m e t h i n g a n d it is n o t tr u e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J u s t le a v e i t a t … A D V D A L I M P O F U : I h a v e to s a y t h i s . N o , n o , n o I h a v e to s a y … C H A I R P E R S O N : R e m e m b e r th a t o n t h e i s s u e o f c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n t h a t is r e a lly n e i t h e r h e r e n o r t h e r e . Page 103 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 ADV DALI MPOFU: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : L a w fu l n e s s is n e i t h e r h e r e n o r t h e r e . ADV DALI MPOFU: Well and so - unless … CHAIRPERSON: No, no. A D V D A L I M P O F U : O n ly a c c e p t e d s o fa r a s th e y r e ly o n i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e - s h e m e n ti o n e d b u t … A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O th e r w i s e r e a l ly i t is n o t - t h e la w f u l n e s s a s s u c h … A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : D o e s n o t ( in t e r v e n e s ) . A D V D A L I M P O F U : W e l l th e l a w fu ln e s s is w h a t y o u m u s t m a k e … CHAIRPERSON: In te r m s o f t h e is s u e o n c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n t h a t w e a r e d e a li n g w i th . A D V D A L I M P O F U : N o m a n . N o C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : I t c a n n o t b e . T h e l a w f u l n e s s i t is - i f - M r M o y a n e w a n ts to a l a y a c h a r g e a b o u t s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s p e r fe c t ly l a w fu l t h a t is o n e t h in g … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 ADV DALI MPOFU: B u t i f h e w a n ts t o l a y a c h a r g e a b o u t s o m e t h in g t h a t w a s a c r i m i n a l a c t iv it y. T h a t is a n o t h e r t h in g . S o i t is n o t ir r e l e v a n t . S o … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , n o b u t r e m e m b e r g o i n g b a c k t o t h e i s s u e o f r e a s o n a b l e - e v e n i f M r M o y a n e la id a c h a r g e t h a t M r G o r d h a n … A D V D A L I M P O F U : Tu r n e d o u t t o b e … Page 104 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 C H A I R P E R S O N : I t t u r n s o u t - i f h e b e li e v e d th a t M r G o r d h a n ’s c o n d u c t w a s u n l a w fu l … ADV DALI MPOFU: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d it t u r n s o u t to b e l a w f u l . ADV DALI MPOFU: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t m i g h t h a v e n o th in g t o d o w i th S t a t e C a p tu r e . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Tr u e b u t if … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e . ADV DALI MPOFU: 10 I f h e h a d g r o u n d s t o - i f h e s a w h i m s h o o ti n g s o m e b o d y a n d w e n t t o a p o l ic e s t a t i o n t h e n y o u c a n n o t s a y h e i s m o t iv a t e d b y m a l ic e . T h a t is t h e p o i n t I a m m a k i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV DALI MPOFU: S o - s o i f i n d e e d th e r e w a s c r i m i n a l a c t iv i ty o r u n l a w f u l a c t iv i ty a n d o n t h e b a s is o f t h a t h e w e n t to t h e p o li c e h o w h e c a n y o u s a y h e is m o ti v a t e d b y m a li c e . S o i t g o e s t o t h e v e r y n u b o f the question. CHAIRPERSON: N o , b u t - b u t y o u s e e I a m - I a m m o v i n g fr o m t h i s point that even if he did not have good grounds … A D V D A L I M P O F U : A p la c e . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : To l a y a c h a r g e . ADV DALI MPOFU: Agreed. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w. ADV DALI MPOFU: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r w h i c h y o u m ig h t c r i ti c is e h i m … ADV DALI MPOFU: Hm. Page 105 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 C H A I R P E R S O N : In a n o t h e r f o r u m … A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: B u t fo r p u r p o s e s o f t h i s C o m m i s s i o n th a t m ig h t b e ir r e l e v a n t … A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : U n ti l y o u s a y i t is c o n n e c t e d w i t h … A D V D A L I M P O F U : S t a te C a p t u r e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : F a ir e n o u g h . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t I t h i n k l e t u s … A D V D A L I M P O F U : C h a i r I ju s t h a v e t o … C H A I R P E R S O N : I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r s u b m is s io n s , ja . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Th e - t h e n o ti o n - g o i n g b a c k to M r M o y a n e ’s s t a t e o f m i n d i t i s a ls o n o t tr u e - w e l l f o r t u n a t e l y i t w a s w i t h d r a w n to s a y t h a t t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r ’s r e p o r t is d is c r e d i te d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : S ik h a k h a n e ’s r e p o r t is a ls o n o t d is c r e d i te d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h e f a c t th a t J u s ti c e N u g e n t s a y s … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : H e d o e s n o t s e e a n y th in g … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Is - th a t i s h is p r o b l e m . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : It h a s g o t n o t h i n g - i t i s n o t a d is c r e d it … Page 106 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : J u s ti c e N u g e n t w a s n o t s i t ti n g a s a r e v ie w … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : O r a n A p p e a l C o u r t o f S ik h a k h a n e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : S ik h a k h a n e s t a n d s a s w e s t a n d n o w. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: Nobody … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 ADV DALI MPOFU: Not even … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Mr G o r d h a n h a s e v e r … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : R e v i e w e d th e S ik h a k h a n e r e p o r t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: So it stands. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : R i g h t ? Kr o o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h e K r o o n - J u s t ic e - J u d g e K r o o n ’s j u d g m e n t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : I h a v e s a i d th is b e f o r e w h e n I w a s h e r e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : It is a f a l l a c y t o s a y t h a t i t w a s w i t h d r a w n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 107 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 A D V D A L I M P O F U : J u s ti c e K r o o n s a t a s o n e o f s e v e n p e o p l e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : H e w e n t to t h e N u g e n t r e p o r t - C o m m i s s i o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d h e w i th d r a w h is s u p p o r t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: For the report. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : O f t h e s e v e n p e o p le . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: S o i f - t h a t is w h a t I s a i d - i f t h e r e - t h e r e w e r e s e v e n o f th e m … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d le t u s s a y J u s t ic e Kr o o n v o t e d a g a i n s t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d t h e o t h e r s ix v o t e d f o r. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h e r e p o r t s ti ll s t a n d s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 A D V D A L I M P O F U : S o t h i s n o ti o n th a t th e Kr o o n r e p o r t is d is c r e d i t e d is a ls o … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : C o m p l e t e ly a f a l l a c y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h e I G I r e p o r t s a y s th e m u s t b e c h a r g e d c r i m i n a ll y. Page 108 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 I t h a s n e v e r b e e n c h a l le n g e d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : S o a ll th e fo u r r e p o r t s - I a m e x c l u d i n g t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV DALI MPOFU: T h a t Mr M o y a n e h a d a c c e s s t o - I s a y th e s a m e a n d t h e o n ly r e p o r t o n th e o t h e r s id e is o n e w h ic h d i d n o t i n v e s t ig a t e t h e is s u e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 A D V D A L I M P O F U : W h ic h d e a ls w i t h i t t a n g e n ti a l ly … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d w h ic h s a y s t h a t i t w i ll n o t b e d i v e r t e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : To lo o k in g a t i t . S o a l l in a l l th e r e i s n o … C H A I R P E R S O N : I g iv e y o u o n e m i n u t e . A D V D A L I M P O F U : Th e r e is n o r e p o r t t h a t - th a t f in d s t h e - t h e r o g u e u n i t la w f u l . A t b e s t i f y o u t w i s t th e l a n g u a g e y o u w il l s a y t h e r e is o n e out of six or seven. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Thank you. L e t u s e n d th e p r o c e e d i n g s r e l a ti n g t o t h is a p p li c a t io n h e r e . A D V D A L I M P O F U : I a m s o r r y C h a ir. I w a s tr y i n g t o lis t e n t o y o u . Yo u s e e I c a n n o t m u l ti t a s k . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. I am - I am saying let us end the … ADV DALI MPOFU: The - the … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e p r o c e e d i n g s r e l a ti n g t o t h e a p p li c a t io n f o r l e a v e Page 109 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 to cross-examine. A D V D A L I M P O F U : Ye s . O k a y, C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V D A L I M P O F U : I - I - c a n I j u s t s a y o n e t h in g . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. A D V D A L I M P O F U : O th e r w is e m y a tt o r n e y w i ll fir e m e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h a t - C h a ir t h is n o t i o n o f d r a g g in g th is th i n g a n d f u r th e r o p p o r t u n i ti e s a n d e n d l e s s … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : C l a r i f ic a ti o n s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e d o n e - y o u h a v e d o n e ( i n t e r v e n e s ) , j a . ADV DALI MPOFU: W il l o n ly a d d t o t h e n o t io n o f t h a t M r G o r d h a n i s u n t o u c h a b le … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V D A L I M P O F U : A n d i s n o t t r e a te d li k e o th e r w i tn e s s e s o r t h a t h e should be cross-examined. Let him come and face the music and do h is o w n c l a r i f ic a ti o n h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . L e t u s - le t u s e n d i t - e n d i t th e r e . 20 ADV DALI MPOFU: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m g o in g t o r e f le c t o n t h e a r g u m e n t s p r e s e n te d a n d - a n d r e v e r t to t h e p a r ti e s . J a , I th i n k l e t u s - le t u s l e a v e i t o n … ADV DALI MPOFU: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t b a s i s , ja . A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Page 110 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV DALI MPOFU: Thank you very much. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m y d e c is io n i n r e g a r d t o t h is o u ts ta n d i n g is s u e o n c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n w il l r e m a i n r e s e r v e d . A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . A D V D A L I M P O F U : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I t h i n k w e w i ll t a k e t h e t e a a d jo u r n m e n t . W e w i ll t a k e s o m e a d j o u r n m e n t b e fo r e w e p r o c e e d w i th t h e o t h e r m a t t e r s . 10 W e w i ll r e s u m e a t q u a r t e r t o 1 2 . I t i s 2 5 p a s t 11 n o w. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M i s s N o r m a n ? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : G o o d M o r n in g M r C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r m a n t h i s m o r n i n g 20 w e i n te n d e d t o le a d t h e e v i d e n c e o f L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l M a t a k a t a , w h o is p r e s e n t to d a y, s h e is r e p r e s e n t e d b y M r M a r i n g a a n d M r J o n a s is r e p r e s e n t e d b y M is s N d a g u la , th e y a r e p r e s e n t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a i r th e o n l y d i ffi c u l ty w e ’v e e n c o u n t e r e d is t h a t C h a ir … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . Page 111 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 CHAIRPERSON: D o y o u w a n t t o g e t t h e m t o p l a c e th e m s e lv e s o n record? A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O n r e c o r d y e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n y o u c a n s t a r t s a y in g s o m e th in g . ADV LIPU NDAGULA: C h a ir p e r s o n m y n a m e i s L ip u N d a g u l a a n d w e are representing Mr Jonas. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV MARINGA JOWEL: C h a ir I ’ m M a r i n g a J o w e l fr o m M a r in g a A t t o r n e y s i n Pr e t o r i a I’ m r e p r e s e n ti n g L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l M a ta k a t a . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h , o k a y. A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir w ill r e c a l l th a t t h is w a s a m a t t e r t h a t w a s h a n d l e d b y m y le a r n e d fr ie n d M r M o k o e n a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th e r e is a tr a n s c r ip t C h a ir w h i c h I a s k e d t h e r e g is tr a r t o p l a c e b e fo r e y o u , i t w a s a p p a r e n t f r o m t h a t t r a n s c r i p t that there was some confusion about what happened when General N o n o p i [ ? ]w i th d r e w h e r a p p li c a t io n t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e M r J o n a s a n d C h a ir d o e s d e a l w i t h t h a t to g e t h e r w i t h Mr J o n a s a n d M r J o n a s ’ la w y e r a n d th e y m a d e it v e r y c l e a r t h a t th e y t h o u g h t th a t b e c a u s e i t w a s 20 w i t h d r a w n a n d th e n th e y – t h a t w a s t h e ir u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t e v e r y t h i n g w a s – a p p e a r e d t o h a v e b e e n w i t h d r a w n a n d t h e y d e a l w i th th a t C h a ir a t p a g e 8 0 o f t h a t r e c o r d a n d t h e n M r M o k o e n a a l s o c o n f ir m s to y o u C h a ir i n t h e v e r y la s t s e n te n c e a n d h e s a y s , “ H e w i th d r e w h is a p p li c a t io n b e f o r e th is C o m m is s i o n to c r o s s e x a m in e s o h e n e v e r d e a l t w i th i t ” , Page 112 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 Ye s , s o c l e a r l y M r J o n a s n e v e r d e a l t w i t h t h e a ff i d a v i t o f M i s s N o n o p i a n d t h a t – o f G e n e r a l N o n o p i a n d th a t o f G e n e r a l M a t a k a t a . T h e r e a r e q u i te s o m e c r i tic a l m a t t e r s e s p e c i a l ly th o s e t h a t r e la t e t o G e n e r a l M a ta k a t a , C h a ir w ill r e c a ll t h a t th e r e i s a le t t e r th a t w a s w r i t t e n to P a r li a m e n t s o t h o s e a r e m a t t e r s th a t h a v e n o t r e a ll y b e e n – t h e y a r e s li g h t ly c a n v a s s e d i n t h e r e - e x a m i n a t io n o f M r J o n a s b y M r L o u w b u t t h e y d o n o t r e a l ly d e a l w i th e v e r y t h i n g t h a t is c o n t a i n e d in t h o s e . I t h i n k a ls o d u e to p r e s s u r e a n d i n t e r m s o f ti m e f a c t o r s w h ic h M r L o u w d o e s d e a l w i t h i n r e s p o n s e t o t h e C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: F o r t h a t r e a s o n C h a ir w e a s k t h a t w i t n e s s e s ’ e v i d e n c e b e p o s t p o n e d t o a d a te t o b e d e t e r m i n e d b y th e C h a ir a n d t h a t C h a ir d ir e c t s t h a t M r J o n a s d e a ls w i t h t h e v e r s i o n s o f both General Nonopi and General Matakata. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a n d t h e r e is n o p r o b le m f r o m t h e l e g a l t e a m s ? ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: N o C h a ir I d id e x p l a in – w e e x p l a in e d to b o t h o f t h e m C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 20 As w e a ls o e x p l a i n e d i n t h e p r e s e n c e o f General Matakata, thanks. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h e s it u a ti o n G e n e r a l M a ta k a t a ? G E N E R A L Y O L I S A M ATA K ATA : Ye s C h a i r I u n d e r s ta n d t h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , o k a y a l r i g h t . O k a y t h e n w e w ill p o s t p o n e t h e h e a r in g o f t h e e v i d e n c e L ie u t e n a n t G e n e r a l M a ta k a t a t o a d a t e t o b e d e t e r m i n e d l a te r a n d i n t h e m e a n ti m e t h e l e g a l t e a m m u s t m a k e Page 113 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 a r r a n g e m e n ts t o r e q u e s t Mr J o n a s to d e p o s e t o a n a ffi d a v i t o r a ffir m e d d e c l a r a ti o n d e a l in g w i t h th e v e r s i o n s p u t u p i n t h e a ff i d a v i t o f M a j o r G e n e r a l N o n o p i , I h o p e I’ v e g o t th e ti tl e c o r r e c t a n d L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l M a t a k a ta . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a I h o p e I’v e g o t a l l o f t h o s e c o r r e c t . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d i f th is c o u ld b e d e a l t w i t h , to d a y ’s t h e 2 n d o f O c t o b e r, if w e c o u l d h a v e M r J o n a s ’ a ff i d a v i t n o t l a te r t h a n t h e 2 0 t h o f 10 O c t o b e r. A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t w i ll g i v e s u ffi c i e n t ti m e , t h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a n d o f c o u r s e o n c e t h a t h is a ffi d a v it is a t h a n d i t w i ll b e i m p o r t a n t t o g iv e a c o p y t o L ie u te n a n t G e n e r a l M a t a k a ta t o h a v e a l o o k a t a n d i f t h e r e ’s a n e e d t o r e s p o n d t o a n y th i n g t o a ls o r e s p o n d a s w e ll a s G e n e r a l N o n o p i . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W il l d o s o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n o n c e w e h a v e g o t a l l o f th o s e th e n h o p e f u l ly it w i ll b e q u i t e c l e a r w h e r e t h e a r e a s o f d is p u t e a r e o r t h e r e m i g h t n o t 20 b e m u c h in t e r m s o f a r e a s o f d is p u t e , th e r e mi g h t b e a c o n v e r g e n c e o f v ie w s o n s o m e o f t h e is s u e s a t l e a s t . P r o b a b ly t h e r e w il l s ti ll b e s o m e is s u e s t h a t r e m a i n i n d is p u t e . A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: J a , n o t h a t ’s f in e . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h L i e u te n a n t G e n e r a l M a t a k a ta y o u a r e e x c u s e d a n d y o u ’ ll b e a d v is e d o f a n o th e r Page 114 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 d a t e b u t t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r c o m in g f o r w a r d t o g iv e e v id e n c e , thank you. A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir, m a y I a ls o b e e x c u s e d C h a ir ? CHAIRPERSON: Ye s y o u a r e a ls o e x c u s e d , t h a n k y o u . M is s W e n t z e l we are the only ones that are not excused. Ye s g o o d m o r n i n g M i s s W e n tz e l , g o o d m o r n i n g C o l o n e l N a id o o . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : G o o d m o r n in g C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y a r e w e r e a d y ? 10 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , le t ’s c o n ti n u e . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Colonel Naidoo when we adjourned y e s t e r d a y w e w e r e d e a l i n g w i t h p a g e 4 7 o f y o u r w i t n e s s s t a te m e n t a n d in p a r ti c u l a r w e g o t t o t h e p o i n t w h e r e y o u d e a l w i t h th e s a l e o f S R v e h ic l e s a n d N e w W o r l d M o to r s , is t h e r e s o m e t h i n g y o u w o u l d l ik e t o s a y a b o u t t h a t? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t , C h a i r r e g a r d in g p o i n t M , s a l e o f v e h ic l e s , t h e h e a d i n g , N e w W o r l d M o t o r s , C h a ir fr o m p o in t o r p a r a g r a p h 1 9 5 t o p a r a g r a p h 2 0 1 , C h a ir a ll th a t is 20 h e r e i n m y s t a t e m e n t h i n g e s o n w h a t I b e li e v e o r a s s u m e h o w th e s y s te m w a s a b u s e d w i t h r e g a r d s t o t h e t e n d e r p r o c e s s s o I w o u ld n o t s p e a k o n t h is i n d e ta il b u t I ’ m w ill i n g t o h e lp t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n t e a m w i t h t h e ir i n v e s t ig a ti o n s r e g a r d i n g th is m a t te r. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, n o t h a t ’s fi n e , is t h a t a l r i g h t w i t h y o u M is s W e n tz e l ? Page 115 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . S o t h e s e is s u e s c a n b e in v e s t i g a t e d f u r t h e r a n d d e p e n d in g o n th e o u t c o m e o f t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n C o lo n e l c o u ld c o m e b a c k a n d t a lk a b o u t – g iv e e v id e n c e a b o u t t h e m o r o t h e r w i t n e s s e s c o u ld b e called. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Or both. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . 10 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C o l o n e l N a i d o o th e n p r o c e e d i n g fr o m p a g e 4 9 y o u d e a l w i th , w h a t y o u c a l l a t r a d e - i n o f G e n e r a l M d l u l i’s p r iv a t e B M W, c o u l d y o u e x p l a in t o t h e C h a ir w h a t happened there? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir y e s , i f I c a n ju s t g iv e t h e b a c k g r o u n d a s t o m y o w n i n v o l v e m e n t i n t h is tr a n s a c t i o n , I w a s g iv e n a n i n s tr u c ti o n , th is w a s p r o b a b l y i n J u ly 2 0 1 0 C h a ir b y G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t o g o t o G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s h o u s e i n Vo s l o o r u s t o p ic k u p h i s B M W, h is p r iv a te v e h i c l e a t t h a t s t a g e , 7 3 0 d i e s e l a n d I m u s t ta k e t h e v e h ic l e t o N is s a n A tl a n tis . 20 T h i s I c a r r i e d o u t C h a ir, I i n d e e d d id t h i s a n d h a n d e d t h e v e h ic l e o v e r to M r J a n Ve n te r a t N i s s a n A t l a n t is . C h a ir a ft e r a b o u t t w o w e e k s I … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: I ’ m s o r r y w e r e y o u to l d w h y it w a s n e c e s s a r y f o r y o u t o t a k e th is v e h ic l e t o A tl a n tis M o t o r s ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A t th a t s t a g e , n o C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u w e r e n o t to ld a t th a t s t a g e ? Page 116 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d th e n y o u s a y a f te r t w o w e e k s , I e i t h e r g o t a c a ll o r h a d a c o n v e r s a t i o n w i t h C o l o n e l B a r n a r d , h e a s k e d m e t o c o l le c t t h e B M W f r o m M r Ve n te r, w h o ’s a d e a l e r p r i n c i p a l a t A t la n ti s a n d th a t I m u s t t a k e th a t p a r t ic u l a r v e h i c l e to L e o H a e s e w h e r e I e n c o u n te r e d a M r N ic o Vi s s e r. C h a ir L e o H a e s e i s a B M W d e a l e r s h i p in P r e t o r ia . M r N i c o Vi s s e r is s a le s p e r s o n a t L e o H a e s e P r e t o r i a . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y b e f o r e w e p r o c e e d l e t’s g o b a c k t o w h e n y o u t o o k t h e c a r t o A t la n ti s , d i d y o u n o t h a v e t o s a y w h y y o u w e r e b r in i n g 10 t h e c a r t h e r e o r d i d y o u fi n d t h a t s o m e b o d y k n e w a b o u t - w a s e x p e c ti n g t h e c a r a n d s o m e b o d y h a d s p o k e n to t h e m a b o u t i t? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir th a t is c o r r e c t , I b e li e v e t h a t M r Ve n te r – o r a r r a n g e m e n t s r a th e r h a d b e e n m a d e w i th M r Ve n t e r t o r e c e i v e t h is c a r, t h is p a r ti c u l a r v e h i c l e a s , l ik e I m e n ti o n e d w h e n I p ic k e d u p th e v e h ic le fr o m G e n e r a l M d l u l i’s h o u s e a n d s u b s e q u e n t ly d r o p p e d i t o ff w i th Mr Ve n t e r h e d i d n o t a s k m e a n y q u e s t io n s o r w h o d o e s t h is v e h ic l e b e l o n g t o , s o i t ’s m y b e l ie f t h a t a r r a n g e m e n ts w a s m a d e a n d I h a n d e d t h e k e y s o v e r t o h i m a n d I l e f t. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s , o k a y th e n tw o w e e k s l a te r G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a s k e d y o u t o p ic k t h e c a r u p a n d t a k e i t to ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir i t w a s C o l o n e l Barnard. CHAIRPERSON: Oh Colonel Barnard? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t’s c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja and asked you to take it where? Page 117 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : He asked me to pick up t h e c a r fr o m N is s a n A tl a n tis a n d t a k e i t t o L e o H a e s e , I’ m n o t s u r e i f I’ m p r o n o u n c i n g th a t c o r r e c t ly, it ’s L e o H a e s e o r L e o H u i s , i t ’s a B M W d e a le r s h i p i n P r e to r i a . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : And I dealt with a g e n tl e m a n b y th e n a m e o f Mr N i c o Vi s s e r, h e w a s a c t u a l ly o n e o f t h e sales persons at Leo Haese. CHAIRPERSON: 10 W h a t ’s th e n a m e o f t h e g e n tl e m a n ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : CHAIRPERSON: N ic o Vis s e r. O k a y Vis s e r ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Okay yes. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : The reason Colonel B a r n a r d g a v e m e – r e g a r d i n g p ic k in g u p t h e v e h ic le fr o m M r Ve n t e r a n d t a k i n g i t t o t h i s p a r t ic u l a r d e a l e r s h i p is t h a t M r Ve n te r w a s b a t tli n g t o g e t a d e c e n t p r ic e o r t h e y w e r e s tr u g g l i n g to s e ll th is p a r t ic u l a r v e h ic l e a t N is s a n A t l a n t is , t h a t w a s th e r e a s o n t h a t w a s t o ld t o m e a n d I ’ m r e fe r r i n g n o w t o Mr Vis s e r o f L e o H a e s e . A f t e r m e t a k i n g t h e v e h i c l e t o 20 h i m … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: S o y o u p i c k e d i t u p f r o m M r Vi s s e r – Ve n t e r a n d t o o k i t t o M r Vi s s e r ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Page 118 of 182 M r Ve n t e r b e in g t h e 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 d e a le r p r i n c ip a l o f A t l a n t is N is s a n a n d M r N ic o Vis s e r b e in g t h e s a le s p e r s o n a t L e o H a e s e B M W. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Mr Vis s e r did an a p p r a i s a l C h a i r a n d h e i n fo r m e d m e t h a t t h e w i n d s c r e e n w a s c r a c k e d and he suggested to me that the windscreen be replaced or should be r e p l a c e d a s th is w o u l d a ffe c t th e v a lu e o f t h e v e h ic l e . C h a ir I ’ m n o t s u r e i f th is w a s e v e r d o n e , I c a n ’ t r e c a ll . CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : What I can say though is G e n e r a l M d l u li ’s p r iv a t e B M W w a s e v e n t u a ll y s o l d , I s a y t h i s b e c a u s e C o l o n e l B a r n a r d a s k e d m e t o m a k e c o n t a c t w i t h G e n e r a l M d lu li b e c a u s e t h e s a le s p e r s o n , M r N ic o Vis s e r w a n t e d a s p a r e k e y. CHAIRPERSON: Wanted? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h e s p a r e k e y C h a ir, I b e li e v e th o s e k e y s a r e q u i te e x p e n s iv e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : k e y. 20 So he wanted a spare I c o n t a c t e d G e n e r a l M d l u li C h a ir a n d I m a n a g e d t o o b ta i n t h e s p a r e k e y fr o m h i m , I a ls o r e c a ll w h e n h e h a n d e d o v e r t h e k e y t o m e , a n d I’ m r e f e r r i n g t o G e n e r a M d l u l i , h e r e m a r k e d o r s a id s o m e t h i n g t o t h e e ffe c t t h a t , I’ m g i v i n g y o u t h e k e y a n d I’ m g e t ti n g n o t h in g i n r e t u r n . T h i s w a s q u i te li g h t h e a r t e d C h a ir i t w a s a l m o s t [i n d i s ti n c t ] . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Page 119 of 182 I t h e n r e la y e d t h i s 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 m e s s a g e t o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s , a ls o li g h t h e a r te d o n m y s i d e a n d G e n e r a l Lazarus, I remember him saying, does he know how much we spent to s o r t o u t h i s c a r, t h is i s w h a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s s a id r e f e r r in g t o G e n e r a l M d lu li . CHAIRPERSON: He said does he know what? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : D o e s h e k n o w h o w m u c h w e s p e n t t o s o r t o u t h is c a r. CHAIRPERSON: O h o k a y ta lk in g a b o u t t h e s a m e c a r ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y a t t h a t s ta g e y o u a ls o d i d n ’ t k n o w o r d i d y o u know how much had been spent on this car? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I’ ll s p e a k a b o u t th a t i n m y n e x t – i n t h e n e x t p a r a g r a p h C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t t e ll m e w h e t h e r y o u k n e w a t t h a t s ta g e o r not? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: J a o k a y. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A n d I’ m s p e a k in g a b o u t t h e s a m e m e e t i n g o r t h e s a m e c o n v e r s a ti o n th a t I h a d w i t h G e n e r a l 20 L a z a r u s , h e h a d a p a g e o n h i s d e s k C h a ir, it w a s a f e w f ig u r e s w r i tt e n , I t h i n k it w a s t h r e e d i ff e r e n t fi g u r e s t h a t h e s h o w e d m e a n d h e t o l d m e – h e g a v e m e t h e p a g e a n d h e t o l d m e t o g o a n d s h o w it t o G e n e r a l M d lu li t o s h o w h i m h o w m u c h t h e y s p e n t t o s o r t o u t t h e s a i d v e h i c l e , t h e tr a n s a c ti o n o r r a t h e r th e s h o r t fa ll . C h a ir I d i d n o t s h o w G e n e r a l M d lu li t h is p a g e t h a t w a s g iv e n t o m e b y G e n e r a l L a z a r u s , I s h r e d d e d Page 120 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 t h e d o c u m e n t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : CHAIRPERSON: Chair if I can continue? Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A f t e r I c o ll e c t e d t h e k e y fr o m G e n e r a l M d l u li I w e n t o v e r t o L e o H a e s e a n d th is h a n d e d t h is k e y t o M r Vi s s e r. C h a ir a f t e r t h i s tr a n s a c ti o n c o n c l u d e d o r w a s c o n c l u d e d General Lazarus told me that I must organise or make arrangements for a lo a n a g r e e m e n t t o b e d r a w n u p b e t w e e n M r J a n Ve n te r o f N i s s a n 10 A t la n ti s a n d G e n e r a l M d lu li , th e r e a s o n g iv e n to m e b y G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a s t h a t th e r e w a s a s h o r t f a l l o f R 5 0 0 0 0 o n th e t r a n s a c t io n o n G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s p r i v a t e B M W. C h a i r a t t h is s t a g e I d o n o t k n o w w h y t h e in s t r u c t i o n w a s g iv e n t o m e t o d r a w u p a n a g r e e m e n t b e tw e e n M r Vis s e r o f A t la n ti s M o t o r s a n d G e n e r a l M d lu li b e c a u s e t h e v e h ic le w a s a c t u a ll y s o l d t h r o u g h B M W, L e o H a e s e . S o a t t h i s s ta g e I d o n ’ t k n o w w h y t h is i n s tr u c ti o n w a s g iv e n t o m e , h o w e v e r, I c a n s a y t h a t th e d o c u m e n t w a s d r a w n u p C h a ir, t h e r e w e r e th r e e d i ff e r e n t d o c u m e n ts C h a ir. I ’l l n o w r e f e r t o th e fi r s t o n e , I’ m r e fe r r i n g n o w t o t h e a c k n o w l e d g m e n t o f d e b t b e tw e e n G e n e r a l M d l u li a n d Mr J a n Ve n t e r o f 20 A t la n ti s M o to r s r e g a r d i n g t h e s a l e o f h is B M W. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir d u r in g t h e – o r r a th e r le t m e g o b a c k r e g a r d in g th e a c k n o w le d g m e n t o f d e b t, I th in k t h is w a s a b o u t , a r o u n d J u ly 2 0 1 0 w h e r e I w e n t to M r Ve n t e r o n th e in s t r u c t i o n o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d a s k e d h i m t o h a v e a l o a n a g r e e m e n t Page 121 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 d r a w n u p b e t w e e n h i m s e l f a n d G e n e r a l M d lu li r e g a r d in g th e R 5 0 0 0 0 a s I e x p l a in e d t o y o u p r e v io u s ly. T h i s is n o w t h e fi r s t d o c u m e n t I r e fe r t o , I s a i d th e r e w e r e th r e e d i ff e r e n t d o c u m e n ts C h a i r a n d I r e fe r t o th e a c k n o w l e d g m e n t o f d e b t , t h is i s t h e f ir s t o n e I r e fe r r e d to . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Now I speak on the s e c o n d – r a t h e r th e f ir s t o n e a g a i n , th e d o c u m e n t w a s i n d e e d d r a w n u p b y G e n e r a l – o r r a t h e r M r Ve n t e r b u t a t t h a t s ta g e C h a ir, i t w a s n o t s ig n e d . 10 S o b a s ic a lly t h e r e w a s n o l e g a l i ty t o t h a t d o c u m e n t b e c a u s e n e i th e r M r Ve n t e r o f A tl a n tis M o t o r s n o r G e n e r a l M d l u l i h a d s ig n e d t h a t d o c u m e n t , h o w e v e r, w h a t I c a n s a y r e g a r d i n g th e fi r s t o n e , th e fi r s t a c k n o w l e d g e m e n t o f d e b t , d u r i n g l a t e 2 0 1 0 G e n e r a l L a z a r u s r e m in d e d m e o r a s k e d m e – t h i s i s n o w w h e n C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e g o t w i n d o f t h e H a w k s i n v e s t ig a ti o n i n t o G e n e r a l M d l u l i ’s a c ti v i t ie s . General Lazarus r e m i n d e d m e C h a i r o f t h e a g r e e m e n t t h a t w a s in i ti a l ly d r a w n u p w h ic h I h a d a c tu a lly f o r g o t t e n a b o u t b e c a u s e i t w a s a fe w m o n th s l a t e r b u t a f te r h a v i n g c h e c k e d i n m y b a g a n d l o o k in g f o r i t C h a ir, I i n d e e d f o u n d t h is d o c u m e n t a n d li k e I s a i d i t w a s n o t s i g n e d . I th e n s h o w e d t h is d o c u m e n t t o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s , h e i n s tr u c t e d m e t o g e t i t s i g n e d b y M r 20 Ve n t e r a n d G e n e r a l M d lu li w h ic h I s u b s e q u e n tly d i d a n d a f te r t h e d o c u m e n t w a s s ig n e d I’ m n o t s u r e i f I g a v e it to Mr Ve n t e r o r I k e p t in m y b a g w i th m e , I c a n ’ t r e c a ll e x a c t ly. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: D o y o u h a v e a c o p y o f th a t d o c u m e n t ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I ’ m j u s t g o i n g to r e fe r t o the Annexures. Page 122 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: I f y o u h a v e a l o o k a t A n n e x u r e D G N 11 p a g e 11 8 i s t h e d o c u m e n t p a r t o f t h o s e A n n e x u r e s ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Chair I don’t see that d o c u m e n t h e r e I ’ m n o t s u r e t h a t d o c u m e n t is n o t h e r e t h e r e ’s t w o o th e r d o c u m e n ts w h ic h I r e fe r t o a s a c k n o w le d g m e n t o f d e b t, t h e r e w a s t h r e e I s a i d I d o n ’ t s e e t h e f ir s t o n e . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: S o c a n y o u a s s u m e th a t y o u m a y h a v e g iv e n t h is d o c u m e n t t o Mr Ve n t e r ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Th is is – i t c o u ld b e w i t h 10 M r Ve n t e r o r i t c o u ld b e w i th C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s , t h a n k y o u , y o u c a n p r o c e e d . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir I – t h is i s n o w t h e fir s t d o c u m e n t t h a t I r e fe r r e d t o , I n o w g o t o … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: I’m sorry what page is that document? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir i t ’s n o t in t h e bundle. CHAIRPERSON: O h I th o u g h t I m i s s e d i t . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir i t ’s n o t in t h e bundle. 20 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y a lr i g h t . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir I n o w g o t o – a n d I’ m s p e a k i n g o n t h e a c k n o w l e d g e m e n t o f d e b t p a g e 11 8 . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h e A n n e x u r e , th is is t h e s e c o n d d o c u m e n t t h a t I r e fe r r e d to . Page 123 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: A n d h o w d i d it a r is e th a t y o u c a m e i n t o p o s s e s s i o n o f t h i s d o c u m e n t? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir t h is w a s w h e n – t h is w a s a p e r i o d , i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n p r o b a b l y b e tw e e n J u n e 2 0 11 to O c t o b e r 2 0 11 . T h is w a s a p e r i o d w h e n G e n e r a l M d l u l i w a s s u s p e n d e d C h a ir. C h a ir o n p a r a g r a p h 2 1 0 I ’ d ju s t l ik e t o c la r i fy s o m e t h i n g , i t reads, “ S u b s e q u e n t t o G e n e r a l M d l u l i’s s u s p e n s io n o n th e in s t r u c t i o n o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s I w e n t to G e n e r a l M d l u l i ”. C h a ir t h a t is i n c o r r e c t , G e n e r a l M d l u l i v ia a n o t h e r m e m b e r 10 fr o m C I m a d e c o n ta c t a n d r e q u e s te d th a t I s e e h i m . S o th is w a s n o t th e in s t r u c t i o n o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t h is w a s a r e q u e s t b y G e n e r a l M d lu li f o r m e t o m a k e c o n ta c t a n d to s e e h i m b u t I d id in f o r m G e n e r a l L a z a r u s o f t h e r e q u e s t a n d h e th e n a l lo w e d m e t o m e e t w i t h G e n e r a l M d l u l i . S o h e b a s ic a lly h a d k n o w l e d g e o f t h is m e e t in g . C h a ir I t h e n m e t – m a d e a r r a n g e m e n ts t o m e e t w i th G e n e r a l M d l u l i, I t h i n k i t w a s th e N a n d o ’s w e m e t i n t h e c a r p a r k i n t h e N a n d o ’s , t h e B o k s b u r g a r e a , h e h a n d e d m e a h a n d w r it t e n d o c u m e n t a n d in s tr u c te d m e to t a k e t h a t d o c u m e n t t o M r Ve n t e r w h ic h I d i d . C h a ir I r e f e r t o t h e t h i r d d o c u m e n t a s A n n e x u r e 11 9 20 o r r a t h e r p a g e 11 9 , p a r d o n m e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s y o u c a n e x p l a in t h is d o c u m e n t C o l o n e l Naidoo. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : t o M r Ve n t e r … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . Page 124 of 182 I showed this document 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: D o y o u m e a n t h e d o c u m e n t o n p a g e 11 8 ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : 11 8 , I showed this d o c u m e n t t h a t I p i c k e d u p fr o m G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d I s h o w e d i t to M r Ve n t e r. H e h a d a l o o k a t i t a n d h e t o l d m e t h a t h e w i ll d r a w u p a n e w a g r e e m e n t , t h is i s n o w r e fe r r e d t o th e t h ir d a c k n o w le d g m e n t o f d e b t o n p a g e 11 9 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir when this d o c u m e n t , a n d I r e f e r to th e th ir d o n e , w h e n i t w a s r e a d y I g o t a c a ll 10 fr o m Mr Ve n t e r, h e to ld m e t h a t h e h a d t h e d o c u m e n ts p r e p a r e d . I w e n t t o h is d e a l e r s h ip in C e n t u r io n , I p ic k e d u p t h a t d o c u m e n t , I m a d e a r r a n g e m e n ts t o m e e t G e n e r a l M d l u l i a g a i n a t t h e c a r p a r k a t N a n d o ’s in B o k s b u r g . H e s i g n e d t h i s d o c u m e n t C h a ir, I t o o k i t b a c k t o M r Ve n t e r, h e h a d i t s i g n e d – o r h e s ig n e d t h e d o c u m e n t a n d I s u b s e q u e n t ly m a d e a r r a n g e m e n ts w i t h G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s s o n t o m e e t m e a t t h e To t a l g a r a g e in C e n t u r i o n a n d I h a n d e d o v e r t h is d o c u m e n t t o h i m , t h is is n o w th e t h ir d o n e C h a ir, I r e f e r t o t h e t h i r d a c k n o w l e d g m e n t o f d e b t . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s a n d C o l o n e l N a i d o o c a n y o u e x p la i n t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d in A p r il 2 0 11 ? 20 C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir i n A p r il 2 0 11 I w a s o n l e a v e I h a d u n d e r g o n e a n o p e r a ti o n I w a s o ff w o r k fo r th r e e m o n t h s . I w a s v is it e d b y t h r e e m e m b e r s o f t h e A s s e t fo r Fu t u r e U n i t , th e y e x p l a i n e d t o m e th a t th e y w e r e i n v e s ti g a ti n g s o m e a c t iv it i e s r e g a r d i n g G e n e r a l M d l u l i m o r e e s p e c i a l ly t h e v e h ic le s . C h a ir I h a d a d is c u s s i o n – t h e y r e q u e s te d a n a ffi d a v it fr o m m e , I e x p la in e d to t h e m t h a t I w a s o n Page 125 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 le a v e a n d a t th a t s t a g e I c o u l d n ’ t g iv e t h e m a n a ffi d a v i t u n ti l I g o t p e r m is s io n fr o m m y s u p e r i o r s . O n t h a t s a m e d a y C h a ir, I w e n t to – w h il e I w a s o n l e a v e , I d r o v e t o Pr e to r i a t o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ o ff ic e a n d e x p l a i n e d t o h i m t h a t t h e s e th r e e in d iv i d u a ls o r r a th e r t h e v is i t o f t h e s e t h r e e i n d iv id u a ls t o m y h o u s e a n d r e q u e s ti n g a n a ff i d a v i t fr o m m e . C h a ir i t ’s th e n t h a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s i n f o r m e d m e th a t G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s p r i v a t e B M W h a d e v e n tu a l ly b e e n s o ld o r t r a d i n g - i n w h e n C I p u r c h a s e d t w o B M W ’s t o o ff s e t th e s h o r t fa ll o n G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s p r iv a t e v e h ic l e . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 10 C a n y o u e x p l a i n th a t ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Chair for the purposes o f e x p l a in in g i t , i f I m a y, l e t ’s n o t c a ll i t a tr a d e - i n I ’l l g e t t o th a t i n a m o m e n t . L e t ’s j u s t s a y t h a t G e n e r a l M d l u li s o l d h i s c a r o r h i s v e h i c l e t o L e o H a e s e . S o b a s i c a ll y h e to o k t h i s v e h ic l e , i t w a s a p p r a is e d a n d t h e r e w a s a s h o r t f a l l o f R 9 0 0 0 0 i f I c a n r e m e m b e r c o r r e c tl y, R 9 0 0 0 0 s o m e c h a n g e . S o t h e r e w a s n o t r a d e - i n , s o i n e ff e c t if t h a t v e h ic l e w a s p u r c h a s e d b y L e o H a e s e a n d G e n e r a l M d l u l i w a s i n d e b t b e c a u s e th e y w o u ld h a v e s e t tl e d t h e c a r b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a n o u t s ta n d i n g h ir e p u r c h a s e o n th is v e h i c l e s o h e w o u l d h a v e o w e d – e i t h e r o w e d L e o H a e s e R 9 0 5 2 6 . 0 1 o r h e h a d t o s e tt l e t h e h ir e p u r c h a s e o n h is v e h ic l e . 20 I’ m n o t s u r e h o w t h a t w o u l d h a v e u n f o l d e d b u t e v e n t u a ll y w h a t happened, now we call it a trade-in because what happened was CI e v e n t u a l ly b o u g h t t w o v e h i c l e s , n a m e ly a B M W 3 3 0 d i e s e l a n d a B M W 5 3 0 d i e s e l , b o th w e r e 2 0 1 0 m o d e ls b a s ic a lly – n o w I’ m s a y i n g t h is is a tr a d e - in b e c a u s e th e s e v e h i c l e s b a s i c a ll y w e r e b o u g h t C h a ir to o ff s e t t h e a m o u n t t h a t w a s o w in g o n G e n e r a l M d l u l i’s p r iv a te B M W. Page 126 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: A n d h o w d id t h a t w o r k , h o w d o e s b u y in g a c a r o ffs e t t h e a m o u n t – b a l a n c e o w i n g ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir h o w I ’ m g iv e n t o u n d e r s t a n d t h i s tr a n s a c ti o n i f I c a n e x p l a in i t , b a s ic a l ly t h e r e w a s n o n e e d f o r C I t o p u r c h a s e th e s e t w o v e h i c le s . Th e y w e r e p u r c h a s e d s o l e ly t o o ffs e t t h e R 9 0 0 0 0 t h a t w a s o w i n g o n G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s v e h ic le . S o t h e l o s s a c t u a l ly w a s n o t o n ly R 9 0 0 0 0 t o C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e b u t a ls o t h e p u r c h a s e o f t h e s e t w o v e h ic l e s , I ’ m n o t s u r e a t th is s t a g e w h a t t h e ir v a lu e w a s b u t th a t ’s w h a t w o u l d b e t h e l o s s t o C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e 10 it w o u l d b e th e v a lu e o f t h e s e t w o v e h i c l e s a n d t h e R 9 0 0 0 0 b e c a u s e t h is w o u ld h a v e b e e n – i f C I h a d b o u g h t t h e s e v e h i c l e s p u r e ly fo r t h e ir u s e o r in n o r m a l c ir c u m s t a n c e s , t h a t d is c o u n t o f R 9 0 0 0 0 w o u ld h a v e a c t u a ll y g o n e t o C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e . I n t h i s c a s e it w e n t o r r a t h e r o ffs e t t h e R 9 0 0 0 0 t h a t w a s o w i n g o n G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s p r i v a t e B M W ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: A n d C o l o n e l N a id o o I’ m n o t s u r e if t h e C h a ir c a n u n d e r s ta n d t h a t e x p la n a ti o n s o c a n w e j u s t u n b u n d le i t s l o w ly. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : S u r e . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l m a y b e le t ’s d o i t t h i s w a y. Yo u t o o k G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s B M W t o L e o H a e s e ? 20 C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u d i d n o t k n o w a t th a t s t a g e w h a t t h e p u r p o s e w a s f o r t h is v e h ic l e to b e t a k e n t h e r e , is th a t r i g h t ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u f o u n d w h e n y o u a r r iv e d t h e r e th a t it a p p e a r e d t h a t t h e r e w a s s o m e u n d e r s t a n d in g b y t h e p e o p l e t h e r e w h a t t h e c a r Page 127 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 w a s t h e r e f o r, is t h a t r i g h t ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. B e c a u s e a n a p p r a i s a l w a s d o n e b y Mr N ic o Vis s e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o w y o u s a y t h a t a t a c e r t a i n l e v e l o f – f o r t h e in it i a l s t a g e w e m u s t ta k e t h e p o s i ti o n t o b e t h a t t h e v e h ic l e w a s th e r e f o r s a l e t o L e o h a e s e b y G e n e r a l M d l u l i. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: And then later on you say we can then take it as a tr a d e i n ? I s t h a t r i g h t ? 10 C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: L e t u s ta lk a b o u t t h e f i r s t p a r t. I n t h e d is c u s s i o n s t h a t y o u h a d w i t h Mr Vis s e r is th e r e a n y t h in g h e s a i d w h ic h s u g g e s te d t h a t th is c a r w a s b e in g s o l d to t h e m ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: N o – d id th e d is c u s s i o n t h a t h e m a y h a v e h a d w i th y o u r e v e a l t h a t t h e c a r w a s b e i n g tr a d e d i n w i t h t h e m ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o t a t t h a t s ta g e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Not at that stage. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. B u t h e d id t a lk a b o u t th e fa c t t h a t th e c r a c k o n t h e w i n d s c r e e n w o u l d d e v a lu e th e c a r ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A n d t h e n y o u s a y l a t e r o n C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e bought two vehicles, is that right? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 128 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y b o u g h t th e m fr o m L e o h a e s e ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is in d e e d c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d o y o u h a v e – h o w m u c h t h o s e v e h ic le s – w h a t t h e ir p r ic e s w e r e ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir i t w a s – i t w a s I d o not have the exact amounts. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : Because I do not have t h e d o c u m e n ts b u t i t w a s a 2 0 1 0 B M W 3 3 0 D ie s e l a n d 2 0 1 0 B M W 5 3 0 10 Diesel. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e r e t h e y b r a n d n e w c a r s ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A n d y o u s a id a ls o t h a t w h e n G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s v e h ic l e w a s t a k e n t o L e o h a e s e i t h a d n o t b e e n p a id u p i n t e r m s o f H ir e Purchase or Credit Agreement? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Not at that stage I was n o t a w a r e o f i t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e n o t a w a r e a t t h a t s ta g e ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u s u b s e q u e n t ly g o t a w a r e ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d w h e n y o u s u b s e q u e n tl y b e c a m e a w a r e is th e p o s i ti o n th a t y o u b e c a m e a w a r e t h a t t h e r e w a s a n a m o u n t o f is i t R 5 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 o u t s ta n d i n g ? T h a t w a s s t ill t o b e p a i d ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is w h a t w a s t o l d t o Page 129 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 m e b y G e n e r a l L a z a r u s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. S o w h e n y o u h e a r d a b o u t t h e p u r c h a s e o f t h e tw o v e h ic l e s b y C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e – o k a y y o u s a id th e s e w e r e b o u g h t fr o m L e o h a u s e ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. H o w – w a s t h e r e a c o n n e c t io n b e t w e e n th e b u y i n g o f t h o s e t w o v e h ic l e s a n d G e n e r a l M d l u li ’s v e h ic le b e in g a t Leohaese? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : 10 T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir b e c a u s e t h o s e – li k e I s a i d th e r e w a s a s h o r t f a l l o n h is p r i v a t e v e h i c l e w h ic h w a s R 9 0 5 2 6 . 0 1 . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : S o t h e s e t w o v e h ic le s t h a t I m e n ti o n e d b a s ic a l ly o ffs e t th e – o r r a th e r l e t m e p u t i t th is w a y. T h e t w o v e h i c l e s p u r c h a s e d b y C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e t h e R 9 0 5 2 6 . 0 1 w o u ld h a v e b e e n a d is c o u n t t o C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e . C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e d i d n o t g e t t h a t d is c o u n t C h a ir in s t e a d i t w a s o ffs e t a g a i n s t th e o u t s t a n d i n g v a l u e o r o u t s ta n d i n g d e b t a g a i n s t G e n e r a l M d l u l i ’s p r i v a t e B M W. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o i n p u r c h a s i n g th e tw o v e h ic l e s y o u s a y C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e w a s e n t i tl e d t o a c e r t a i n d is c o u n t ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d i n s t e a d o f L e o h a e s e g i v i n g th e m – g i v i n g t h e m t h a t d i s c o u n t h e d id n o t g iv e th e m t h e d is c o u n t b u t t h e m o n e y w a s t a k e n t o b e p a r t o f t h e tr a d e - i n p r ic e o f G e n e r a l M d l u l i ’s c a r ? Page 130 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. I t o ffs e t th e o u ts t a n d i n g a m o u n t t h a t w a s o w i n g o n G e n e r a l M d l u li ’s p r i v a t e c a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o w o u l d t h i s h a v e b e e n r e f le c t e d in th e b o o k s of Leohaese do you know? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I do not have an idea C h a ir. I a m – I w a s n o t p r iv y t o th a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e d is c o u n t t h a t w a s n o t g iv e n t o C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e w a s t h a t a d is c o u n t t h a t w a s a l w a y s g iv e n t o – o r th a t w a s g e n e r a l 10 s p e a k i n g g iv e n t o C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e w h e n e v e r t h e y b o u g h t v e h ic le s fr o m L e o h a e s e ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir I d o n o t k n o w h o w t h e d e a l s t o o k p l a c e b u t I b e li e v e s o b e c a u s e t h e – a n d I r e f e r b a c k to t h e – t o t h e d i s c u s s io n t h a t I h a d w i th G e n e r a l L a z a r u s . H e s a i d t h o s e t w o v e h i c l e w e r e p u r c h a s e d t o s o r t o u t t h e s h o r t fa ll o n G e n e r a l M d l u li ’s v e h ic l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ms W e n tz e l . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: C o l o n e l N a i d o o c a n y o u e x p la in th e n w h y a t t h e e n d o f t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s th e r e w a s a n a c k n o w l e d g e m e n t o f d e b t 20 b e t w e e n G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d n o t L e o h a e s e b u t r a t h e r w i t h Mr J a n Ve n te r o f N is s e n A t l a n t is ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : C h a ir I a m r e a l ly n o t s u r e w h y b e c a u s e th e v e h ic l e w a s a c t u a ll y tr a d e d i n a t L e o h a e s e o r Leohaese and I do not know why that the acknowledgement of debt was b e t w e e n G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d M r Ve n t e r. I c a n n o t s a y f o r c e r t a i n . Page 131 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: A n d C o l o n e l N a id o o d o y o u k n o w w h a t t h e n h a p p e n e d t o th e tw o B M W ’s t h a t w e r e p u r c h a s e d ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : C h a ir th e o n e – t h e o n e v e h ic l e n a m e l y t h e 3 3 0 D i e s e l w a s h a n d e d o v e r t o F M 2 4 f o r u s e . F M 2 4 is a c lo s e a s s o c ia t e o f G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d t h e o t h e r 5 3 0 D ie s e l w a s u s e d b y G e n e r a l M d lu li h i m s e l f . C h a i r I m u s t a d d a l s o a t th is s t a g e G e n e r a l M d lu li a lr e a d y w a s – o r a l r e a d y h a d tw o v e h ic l e s i n h is p o s s e s s i o n – s ta t e v e h ic le s – S R v e h i c l e s . 10 CHAIRPERSON: N o w t h e v e h ic l e th e G e n e r a l M d lu li v e h ic l e t h a t w e a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t t h a t y o u t o o k t o i n it i a l ly M r Ve n t e r a n d l a t e r Mr Vi s s e r t h a t w a s h is p e r s o n a l c a r ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir t h a t w a s a B M W 7 S e r ie s . CHAIRPERSON: N o w i n o r d e r f o r – i n o r d e r f o r G e n e r a l M d l u li ’s p e r s o n a l B M W t o h a v e b e e n ta k e n a s a tr a d e - in w h a t – G e n e r a l M d l u l i w o u ld h a v e h a d t o b e g i v e n a p e r s o n a l c a r b y L e o h e a s e , i s i t n o t ? B e c a u s e h e – i f h e w a s tr a d i n g i n h is p e r s o n a l c a r t h a t w o u ld m e a n h e is b u y i n g a n o t h e r c a r – a n o t h e r p e r s o n a l c a r i s i t n o t? 20 C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir t h a t is w h y i n i t ia ll y I s a i d l e t u s c a ll it a s a l e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A ID O O : A s t h e r e w a s n o tr a d e - in b e c a u s e th a t is in i ti a l ly – t h a t is w h a t i t w a s . b u y i n g a n o t h e r c a r. Because he was not H e w a s b a s ic a lly s e l li n g th e c a r o ff t o L e o h a e s e Page 132 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 a n d th a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n th e o u t s t a n d i n g d e b t o f R 9 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A n d t h e n I w e n t t o th e s e c o n d p a r t a n d I s a y i t e v e n t u a l ly b e c a m e a tr a d e - i n b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a tr a d e - i n . C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e b o u g h t t w o v e h ic le s a g a in s t th a t B M W a n d t h e o u ts t a n d i n g a m o u n t w a s o f fs e t a g a i n s t t h e p u r c h a s e o r r a th e r t h e p u r c h a s e o f t h e s e t w o v e h i c le s o ffs e t th e o u t s ta n d i n g b a l a n c e o n G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s c a r. S o th a t is w h y I s a id i n i t ia ll y w e w i ll c a l l i t a s a l e w i t h n o tr a d e - i n b u t i t e v e n t u a l ly 10 b e c a m e a tr a d e - in because two vehicles were purchased. CHAIRPERSON: B u t I d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d w h y G e n e r a l M d l l u li w o u l d tr a d e i n h is p e r s o n a l c a r f o r th e b e n e f i t o f C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e b e c a u s e t h e o t h e r tw o c a r s a s I u n d e r s t a n d th e p o s i ti o n t h a t w e r e b o u g h t b y C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e i n t h i s r e g a r d r e l a t e d – w e r e g o in g to b e – w e r e g o i n g t o b e l o w t o C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir n o th e – n o C h a ir t h e b e n e fi t w a s n o t t o C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e th e b e n e f i t w a s fo r h i ms e lf b e c a u s e h e w a s s e l li n g h is c a r a n d h e s ti ll h a d t o s e t t le t h e d e b t o f R90 000.00 some change. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t y o u a r e n o t s a y i n g t h a t h is c a r w a s t h e n t o b e s o l d a n d h e w a s g o in g to g e t t h e – a n y m o n e y o u t o f t h a t . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : H e d i d n o t g e t a n y m o n e y o u t o f i t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A n d I r e f e r b a c k t o – l e t Page 133 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 m e g o b a c k t o w h e r e h e – I w i ll r e fe r y o u t o 2 0 6 . CHAIRPERSON: Page 206? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : R a t h e r p a r a g r a p h 2 0 6 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : W h e r e I s a y I c o ll e c t e d a s p a r e k e y f r o m G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d h e r e m a r k e d I a m g i v i n g y o u th e k e y a n d I a m g e t ti n g n o th i n g in r e t u r n . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u s e e G e n e r a l M d lu li w h e n h i s B M W w a s t a k e n to L e o h a e s e i f o n h is c r e d i t a g r e e m e n t w i t h t h e r e le v a n t b a n k o w e d a 10 b a l a n c e o f R 9 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 a n d h e – h e a r r a n g e d t h a t C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e s h o u l d b u y t w o c a r s b u t th a t th e d i s c o u n t w h ic h s h o u l d h a v e c o m e t o – b e e n g iv e n t o C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e s h o u ld n o t b e g i v e n t o C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e i n s t e a d i t s h o u l d b e g iv e n t o h i m b e c a u s e i t s h o u l d b e u s e d t o s e t t le h i s b a l a n c e w i th t h e b a n k f o r th e B M W. I f th a t i s w h a t h a p p e n e d a n d t h e B M W r e m a i n e d w i t h L e o h a e s e a n d b e c a m e t h e ir c a r t h e n – t h e n – a n d th e s e o t h e r c a r s w e r e C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e o ffic i a l c a r s it s e e m s t o m e t h a t h e s o l d th e v e h ic l e t o L e o h a e s e f o r R 9 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 w h ic h s h o u l d h a v e b e e n f o r t h e b e n e fi t o f C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e b u t i t w a s u s e d f o r h is b e n e fi t . A m I w a y o ff th e m a r k ? 20 C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : C h a ir I a m n o t s u r e h o w I e x p l a i n e d i t. CHAIRPERSON: B e c a u s e y o u s e e h e – y o u a r e n o t s a y in g t h a t h e a s k e d f o r a n y b a l a n c e fr o m L e o h a e s e f o r t h e v e h i c l e , is i t n o t ? Yo u d o not know anything about any balance? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Page 134 of 182 C h a ir t h e r e w a s – t h e r e 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 w a s a n o u ts t a n d i n g b a l a n c e o f R 9 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o I a m n o t ta lk in g a b o u t th a t b a la n c e . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u s e e a s I u n d e r s t a n d th e p o s it i o n i f I h a v e a c a r w h ic h is s ti ll u n d e r a b a n k I c a n n o t s e ll i t t o y o u w it h o u t th e c o n s e n t o f the bank. I f I s e ll i t to y o u w i t h o u t t h e c o n s e n t o f t h e b a n k th a t a g r e e m e n t i s i ll e g a l . B u t t h e b a n k c a n g i v e t h e ir c o n s e n t a n d if I s ti ll o w e t h e b a n k R 9 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 a n d I – th e v a lu e o f t h e c a r m ig h t n o t b e R 9 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 i t m ig h t b e R 2 0 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 – i t m ig h t b e R 1 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 s o I 10 m i g h t t h e n s a y w e ll y o u m u s t p a y m e R 1 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 a n d w h e n y o u p a y m e t h a t I ta k e R 9 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 a n d I p a y t h e b a n k . B u t i t m a y b e th a t fo r XYZ reasons I say to you if you can give me the R90 000.00 that I owe t h e b a n k t h a t b a la n c e – i f y o u c a n p a y i t t h e n t h a t i s t h e – th e n y o u c a n h a v e t h e c a r I d o n o t w a n t a n y t h i n g o n t o p o f th a t . I j u s t w a n t t o g e t o u t o f th is o b li g a t io n . Yo u s e e t h e o w n e r s h ip o f th e c a r g e ts tr a n s fe r r e d . S o if L e o h a e s e w a s t o k e e p t h e v e h ic le th e B M W a n d t h e v a l u e o f t h e B M W w a s m o r e t h a n R 9 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 s o i t m a y b e th a t M d l u l i – G e n e r a l M d l u li e ffe c tiv e ly s o l d t h e c a r to L e o h a e s e f o r R 9 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 t h a t L e o h a e s e h a d to p a y t o t h e b a n k . 20 Or am I causing you more c o n fu s i o n ? A m I c a u s i n g y o u m o r e c o n fu s i o n ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir a s I e x p l a in e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : I w il l l e t M s W e n tz e l – m a y b e s h e m ig h t g iv e c la r i ty. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir. T h a t is – a s I e x p l a i n e d t h a t is h o w I u n d e r s ta n d t h is tr a n s a c ti o n t h a t h o w i t u n f o l d e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t if i t u n f o l d e d t h e w a y t h a t I a m e x p l a i n i n g i t Page 135 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 t h e n i t m i g h t b e a m is n o m e r t o t a l k a b o u t a tr a d e - i n . I t m i g h t b e th a t i t w a s s i m p ly f o r a ll i n te n ts a n d p u r p o s e s a s a l e . B u t C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e b e i n g p r e j u d ic e d i n th e p r o c e s s . I t h i n k Ms W e n tz e l is d y i n g t o s a y s o m e t h i n g s o Ms W e n tz e l y o u m i g h t w is h t o s a y s o m e t h i n g o r c l a r i f y o r a s k q u e s t i o n s t h a t w il l b r in g s o m e c la r i ty ? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir. C h a ir th e w a y t h a t I u n d e r s t a n d i t. T h i s tr a n s a c t i o n c a n o n ly m a k e s e n s e i n t h e f o ll o w i n g s c e n a r io a n d C o l o n e l N a id o o y o u m u s t t e ll m e w h e t h e r y o u u n d e r s t a n d it i n th e s a m e w a y o r n o t? 10 C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : S u r e . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ve r y s a d ly w h e n o n e b u y s a b r a n d n e w v e h ic l e th e y s a y t h e m i n u t e y o u d r iv e i t o u t y o u i m m e d ia t e l y l o s e v a l u e o n t h a t v e h i c l e . S o o n e is o ft e n i n a s i t u a ti o n w h e r e y o u o w e m o r e o n a c a r t h a n y o u a r e o ff e r e d i n a s a le . So if for instance the amount o w i n g w a s R 6 0 0 0 0 0 .0 0 o n a c a r b u t H e r t z w e r e o n ly p r e p a r e d t o p a y R 5 1 0 0 0 0 .0 0 f o r th e c a r e s s e n ti a l ly y o u a r e c o r r e c t C h a ir a n a m o u n t o f R 5 1 0 0 0 0 .0 0 n e e d e d t o b e p a i d t o G e n e r a l M d l u li w h o w o u l d t h e n p a y i t t o t h e b a n k . B u t i t m a y h a v e b e e n a n d o n e d o e s n o t k n o w w h e th e r t h a t h a p p e n e d o r w h e th e r t h e R 5 1 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 w a s p a i d d ir e c tl y t o t h e b a n k . 20 B e c a u s e i n e s s e n c e th e r e w a s n o e q u i ty in t h a t c a r a t a l l . So at the e n d o f th is tr a n s a c ti o n t h e r e w a s n o e q u i ty a n d i n f a c t th e r e w a s a R 9 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 s h o r t fa ll . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: A n d s o in o r d e r to s e t tl e th a t s h o r t f a l l t h e d is c o u n ts o n p u r c h a s e s o f t w o n e w v e h i c l e s w a s o ff s e t a g a in s t t h a t . Page 136 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I s t h a t c o r r e c t? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is in d e e d c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: Let us proceed. I t h i n k I a m n o t t h e o n ly o n e w h o d o e s n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h a t i t is . Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir i f I m a y I h a v e g iv e n s ta t e m e n ts t o th is r e g a r d to C o lo n e l R o e l o fs e . He would p r o b a b ly h a v e m o r e i n s i g h t i n h is i n v e s t ig a ti o n s i f t h a t w o u ld h e l p . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. 10 A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u . C o l o n e l N a id o o c a n w e t h e n d e a l w i t h t h e d i s c o u n ts g iv e n t o C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e m e m b e r s f o r t h e p u r c h a s e o f p r iv a t e v e h ic le s b y N i s s a n A tl a n tis fr o m p a g e 5 2 o f y o u r w i t n e s s s t a te m e n t ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : Ye s C h a ir I p u r c h a s e d a v e h ic l e – a p r iv a t e v e h ic le f r o m M r J a n Ve n t e r o f A t la n ti s N is s a n . T h e d is c o u n t t h a t I r e c e iv e d w a s R 3 0 0 0 0 .0 0 . C H A I R P E R S O N : . Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : purchased a vehicle. 20 My w if e ’s n i e c e a l s o S h e a ls o r e c e iv e d a d is c o u n t o f R 3 0 0 0 0 .0 0 C h a ir. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : H o w d id y o u a r r a n g e th e s e d i s c o u n ts ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : C h a ir I a p p r o a c h e d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t h is w a s p r o b a b ly in 2 0 0 7 a n d I i n f o r m e d t h a t I w a n te d t o r e p l a c e my w i f e ’s c a r o r tr a d e i t i n . G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t h e n d ir e c t e d m e to C o lo n e l B a r n a r d a n d s e e h o w h e c o u l d h e l p m e . C o l o n e l B a r n a r d Page 137 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 t h e n s a i d t o m e t h a t h e w o u ld s p e a k to M r Ve n t e r t o a r r a n g e a v e h ic le f o r m e o r i f h e c o u ld a r r a n g e a v e h ic le . C h a ir w h a t I c a n r e m e m b e r is t h a t I d i d e v e n t u a l ly o r m y w i f e e v e n t u a ll y p u r c h a s e d a v e h i c l e H o n d a C i v ic fr o m t h e H o n d a d e a le r s h i p . I t i s s t il l w i t h i n – t h e H o n d a d e a le r s h i p is – f a l ls w i t h i n t h e w in g o f N i s s a n A t la n ti s i t i s o n e o f t h e d e a le r s h i p s t h a t b e l o n g s t o N is s a n A t la n ti s . I t w a s a H o n d a C i v ic a n d t h e d is c o u n t I r e c e iv e d o n t h i s v e h ic l e w a s R 3 0 0 0 0 .0 0 . C h a ir i n t h e s a m e p r o c e s s th a t I ju s t e x p l a i n e d m y w if e ’s n i e c e a ls o p u r c h a s e d a v e h ic l e fr o m N is s a n A tl a n tis a n d s h e a ls o r e c e iv e d a p p r o x i m a t e ly 10 R30 000.00 discount. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: A n d a s f a r a s y o u a r e a w a r e d id G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a ls o r e c e iv e d i s c o u n ts f o r p r i v a t e v e h ic l e s fr o m N is s a n A t la n ti s ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir G e n e r a l L a z a r u s b o u g h t tw o V W G o l fs , a K ia P ic a n t o , a H o n d a C R V, a N is s a n M u r a n o , t w o q u a d b i k e s , a s c o o t e r a n d m o t o r b ik e th r o u g h N is s a n A t l a n t is . C h a ir I a m n o t s u r e w h a t t h e t o t a l d is c o u n t th a t h e w o u l d h a v e r e c e i v e d o n a l l o f t h e s e v e h i c l e s t h a t I m e n t io n e d . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d t h e n C o lo n e l N a i d o o c o u ld y o u d e a l w i t h 20 t h e p u r c h a s e o f t h e C D T I g r e y H o n d a C i v ic b y G e n e r a l M d lu li ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : C h a ir t h i s w a s a ls o a v e h ic l e fr o m M r J a n Ve n t e r o f N i s s a n A t la n tis . C h a i r t h i s w a s a 2 .2 C D I it w a s a g r e y H o n d a C iv ic . Fr o m w h a t I c a n r e c a ll o f t h is in c i d e n t C h a ir t h is w a s i n it i a l ly a v e h ic l e t h a t w a s g iv e n t o G e n e r a l M d l u l i’s w i f e . T h is is n o w a p r iv a te v e h i c l e j u s t t o t e s t d r iv e . Page 138 of 182 H o w e v e r t h e v e h ic le w a s 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 d r i v e n b y G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s w i f e a t t h a t s t a g e f o r a fe w m o n t h s . I s a y t h is b e c a u s e I r e m e m b e r h a v i n g a c o n v e r s a t io n w i t h C o l o n e l B a r n a r d a n d h e to l d m e t h a t h e w a s g e t ti n g a l o t o f p r e s s u r e fr o m M r Ve n t e r b e c a u s e t h e v e h ic l e w a s n o t r e t u r n e d t o M r Ve n t e r a n d th e r e w a s n o p a y m e n t f o r th c o m i n g r e g a r d i n g t h i s v e h ic l e . M e a n i n g – s i m p ly m e a n i n g t h a t t h i s v e h ic l e w a s b e in g d r iv e n b y G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s w i fe f o r a f e w m o n th s w i t h o u t p a y i n g fo r i t . C h a ir I d o n o t k n o w i f t h i s v e h i c l e w a s in d e e d r e tu r n e d to M r Ve n te r o r i f it w a s p a i d fo r b y G e n e r a l M d l u l i o r h is w if e a t t h a t s t a g e . 10 A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d d i d y o u h a v e a n y o th e r d e a l in g s w i t h t h a t v e h ic l e ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : Ye s C h a ir I r e c a l l a n in c i d e n t w h e r e G e n e r a l M d l u l i a s k e d m e t o f e tc h t h is v e h i c l e fr o m h i s h o u s e a n d t a k e i t t o N is s a n A t l a n t is f o r a s e r v ic e a n d a ls o o n a n o th e r occasion there was – there was that rim w as damaged and there was a f e w o th e r t h i n g s t h a t n e e d e d a t t e n t io n o n t h e v e h i c l e . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And what happened? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : Th e t o t a l – s o r r y M s W e n tz e l . 20 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: No – yes. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h e t o t a l a m o u n t fo r t h e r e p a ir s o f t h a t v e h i c l e w a s R 2 4 8 5 . 0 0 . C h a ir th e in v o ic e s w e r e s h o w n to m e w it h m y s i g n a t u r e o n i t b u t f o r t h e r e a s o n s o f i t t h e s e i n v o i c e s w e r e g e n e r a te d b y C o m p a n y X s o i t is n o t a n n e x e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 139 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o w h a t h a p p e n e d a b o u t t h e in v o ic e ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir … ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Who paid that? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : I c o n t a c t e d C o lo n e l B a r n a r d a b o u t t h e p a y m e n t . C o l o n e l B a r n a r d s a id t h a t h e w i ll d e a l w i t h it . I a m n o t s u r e I c a n n o t s a y f o r c e r t a i n t h a t i t w a s p a i d o r i f i t w a s paid how it was paid. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s a n d C o lo n e l N a i d o o c a n y o u t h e n d e a l with the – your private purchase of a VW Golf R32? 10 C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Chair this was not a p r i v a t e p u r c h a s e t h is w a s a v e h ic le t h a t w a s b o u g h t a n d p a i d fo r b y t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t a n d s u b s e q u e n t ly I m a d e u s e o f t h i s p a r t ic u l a r v e h ic l e . C h a ir i f I c a n ju s t g iv e y o u s o m e i n s i g h t a s t o h o w th is tr a n s a c ti o n c a m e a b o u t ? C h a ir d u r i n g 2 0 11 a t th a t s t a g e I w a s d r iv i n g a s i lv e r G o l f G T I w h i c h w a s s t il l i n f a ir ly g o o d c o n d i ti o n . k il o m e tr e s w e r e q u i t e l o w. The I t w a s p r o b a b ly a r o u n d 4 0 0 0 0 k il o m e tr e s a n d i t w a s i n g o o d c o n d i ti o n . C h a ir a r o u n d A p r il o r M a y 2 0 11 I w a s in t h e c o m p a n y o f C o l o n e l F M 11 . I r e m e m b e r i t v e r y c le a r ly C h a ir b e c a u s e th is w a s t h e p e r i o d w h e r e I w a s o ff s ic k fr o m w o r k . 20 u n d e r g o n e a n o p e r a t io n . I had I t w a s f r o m t h e 1 M a r c h to th e 1 J u n e s o I w a s a t h o m e . I r e m e m b e r C o l o n e l F M 11 p i c k i n g m e u p fr o m h o m e . W e – I cannot recall where we were driving to but we were driving in the B o k s b u r g a r e a w h e n w e p a s s e d a d e a l e r s h i p C h a ir. n o t ic e d a G o l f R 3 2 f o r s a le . S4 Auto when I C h a i r I s u b s e q u e n t ly i n f o r m e d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a b o u t t h e v e h ic l e a n d in d ic a t e d to h i m t h a t I w a n te d t o Page 140 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 p u r c h a s e o r r a th e r w a n t e d C I t o p u r c h a s e t h e v e h i c l e f o r m e t o b e u s e d a s a S R v e h ic l e . S i m p l y m e a n i n g C h a ir I w a n te d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t o r e p l a c e t h i s R 3 2 o r r a th e r r e p l a c e t h e G o l f 6 t h a t I h a v e b e e n d r i v i n g a t t h a t s t a g e w i t h t h i s p a r ti c u l a r v e h ic le t h a t I m e n ti o n e d w h ic h w a s t h e Golf R32. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir I a m n o t s u r e i f i t w a s – i t w a s s t il l w i th in t h i s p e r io d th a t I w a s o n l e a v e o r o ff s i c k . C o l o n e l F M 11 d r o v e to S 4 A u t o w h e r e I m e t w i t h G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d 10 F M 1 2 . C h a ir w e i n s p e c te d th e v e h ic le b u t th a t p a r ti c u l a r v e h ic l e C h a i r w a s n o t i n v e r y g o o d c o n d it i o n s o th a t v e h i c le w a s n o t p u r c h a s e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A ID O O : A l th o u g h I i n f o r m e d o r C o l o n e l F M 11 i n fo r m e d m e t h a t h e w o u l d c o n t i n u e t o l o o k fo r th a t p a r t ic u l a r v e h i c l e i n a n o t h e r p r o v i n c e . H e w o u ld s p e a k t o h is c o n ta c t i n D u r b a n to s e e i f h i s c o n t a c t c o u ld s o u r c e o n e t h e r e . C h a ir I a m n o t s u r e o f t h e ti m e p e r i o d b u t I c a n s a y th a t s o m e s t a g e l a t e r C o l o n e l F M 11 i n f o r m e d m e t h a t h i s c o n ta c t i n D u r b a n h a d i n d e e d m a n a g e d t o lo c a t e a G o l f R 3 2 . W e m a d e a r r a n g e m e n t s w h e n I s a y w e i t w a s m y s e lf 20 a n d F M 11 w e m a d e a r r a n g e m e n ts t o fl y to D u r b a n o r I a m n o t s u r e i f w e d r o v e t o D u r b a n o r fl e w t o D u r b a n b u t h is c o n t a c t m a d e a r r a n g e m e n ts f o r u s t o i n s p e c t t h i s v e h ic l e . C h a ir t h e p e r s o n th a t I r e f e r t o – t h e c o n ta c t o f F M 11 I r e m e m b e r h is n a m e a s L a l u . I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r o r r e c a l l h is s u r n a m e c h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 141 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : H e in f o r m e d u s th a t – p a r d o n m e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Was it a man or a woman? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir ? C H A I R P E R S O N : L a lu w a s i t a m a n o r a w o m a n ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I t is a m a n C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : owner wanted 240 000 for the Golf R32. 10 H e in f o r m e d u s t h a t t h e A f t e r in s p e c t in g t h e v e h ic l e a n d - a n d s e e in g th a t i t w a s - i s - w a s q u i te - w a s q u i t e i n g o o d c o n d i ti o n . I t w a s a c t u a ll y i n b e tt e r c o n d i t io n t h a n t h e o n e t h a t w e h a d s e e n e a r l ie r o r a fe w m o n th s e a r li e r a t S 4 A u t o . W e - I a m n o t s u r e i f i t w a s m e o r C o l o n e l F M 11 t o l d L a l u t h a t w e w e r e in t e r e s t e d a n d th a t h e s h o u ld s p e a k t o th e o w n e r a n d t e l l t h e o w n e r to k e e p t h e v e h ic l e fo r u s a n d n o t t o s e ll i t. C h a ir o n m y r e t u r n t o P r e t o r ia I in f o r m e d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t h a t F M 11 a n d m y s e lf h a d s e e n t h is p a r t ic u l a r v e h ic l e a n d t h a t i t w a s i n g o o d c o n d i ti o n a n d i t w a s i n b e t t e r c o n d i ti o n t h a n t h e o n e th a t w e h a d s e e n p r e v i o u s ly a n d t h a t I w a n t e d i t. C h a ir G e n e r a l L a z a r u s g a v e m e t h e g o a h e a d t o p u r c h a s e t h e 20 v e h ic l e . W i t h r e g a r d s to h o w th e p u r c h a s e o r h o w th e tr a n s a c ti o n w o u ld - w o u l d u n fo l d C h a ir. H e a s k e d m e t o s p e a k t o C o l o n e l B a r n a r d . A t t h a t s t a g e C o l o n e l B a r n a r d w a s H e a d o f t h e P r o c u r e m e n t S e c t io n a n d h e a s k e d m e t o - t o s p e a k to h i m a n d s e e w h a t th e b e s t w a y w o u ld b e t o - t o p u r c h a s e t h is p a r ti c u la r v e h ic l e . Page 142 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Chair before m e e ti n g w i t h C o lo n e l B a r n a r d o r h a v in g a c o n v e r s a ti o n w it h C o l o n e l B a r n a r d I r e m e m b e r m e e t in g w i t h C o l o n e l F M 11 . C h a ir a n d I s u g g e s te d t o h i m t h a t - t o C o lo n e l F M 11 t h a t w e i n f l a t e t h e p r i c e o f t h e v e h ic l e b y R40 000,00. Seeing that the … A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I s i t a n o th e r 4 0 0 0 0 ? J a . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s . 4 0 0 0 0 . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o . T h e s e p e o p l e li k e d … 10 C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : R 4 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 . Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir, I s u g g e s te d t h i s t o F M 11 s e e i n g t h a t th e p r e v io u s - t h e p r e v i o u s v e h ic le t h a t w e h a d in s p e c t e d in J o h a n n e s b u r g S 4 A u t o w a s s e l li n g f o r 2 8 0 0 0 0 a n d t h e v e h ic l e t h a t w e i n s p e c te d in D u r b a n w a s in m u c h b e t t e r c o n d it i o n a n d it was 40 000 less. S o th is w a s m y s u g g e s t io n to - t o F M 11 t o s p e a k t o L a l u a n d t h a t h e s h o u l d s p e a k t o t h e o w n e r a n d s e e if h e c a n fa c i li t a t e t h a t f o r u s . I i n fo r m e d F M 11 t h a t I n e e d e d e x tr a - t h e 4 0 0 0 0 e x tr a to p a y fo r 20 s o m e o f t h e r e n o v a ti o n s t h a t I w a s u n d e r ta k i n g a t th a t s t a g e a t m y house. C h a ir C o l o n e l F M 11 a g r e e d t o c h e c k w i t h h is c o n t a c t L a l u t o s p e a k t o th e o w n e r to s e e i f t h is d e a l c a n - c o u l d i n d e e d b e n e g o t ia t e d . C h a ir F M 11 s u b s e q u e n tly i n fo r m e d m e t h a t h e d i d s p e a k - d id s p e a k t o - t o L a l u a n d t h e a r r a n g e m e n t t h a t w e s u g g e s te d to t h e m c o u l d b e f a c i li t a te d . C h a i r t h is w o u l d b e d o n e o n c e t h e v e h i c l e w a s Page 143 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 s o l d a n d t h e o w n e r w a s p a id . C o lo n e l F M 11 o r m y s e l f th r o u g h L a l u w o u ld f e tc h t h e e x t r a R 4 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 in c a s h . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir, I h a d a lr e a d y p r e v i o u s ly s p o k e n to C o lo n e l B a r n a r d a s t o h o w w e w o u l d fa c i li t a t e t h i s d e a l. C o l o n e l B a r n a r d in f o r m e d m e t h a t w e s h o u ld - i t s h o u l d b e d o n e t h r o u g h N i s s a n A t l a n t is . C h a ir a t t h a t s t a g e N is s a n A t l a n t is w a s a s u p p li e r t o C o m p a n y X . T h e a r r a n g e m e n t w a s t h a t N is s a n A tl a n tis w o u l d p a y f o r th is 10 v e h ic l e a t t h e fu ll p r ic e o f R 2 8 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 a n d C o m p a n y X w o u l d b e in v o ic e d f o r t h is v e h ic le . S o b a s ic a l ly w h a t i t m e a n s is o n p a p e r i t s h o w s th a t C o m p a n y X b o u g h t th e v e h ic l e f r o m N is s a n A tl a n ti s a s t o oppose to the real owner in Durban. C h a ir li k e I e x p la in e d w h i ls t t h i s w h o l e p r o c e s s w a s g o i n g o n I a ls o s t a r te d r e n o v a t io n s a t m y - a t m y h o u s e a s m y w i f e w a s g o i n g to le a v e w o r k a n d w e w e r e g o i n g t o s t a r t a b u s i n e s s fr o m o u r h o m e . remember one afternoon w h il s t tr a v e l li n g fr o m - from I work G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a s w i t h m e a s I w o u ld n o r m a l ly - a s h e w o u l d n o r m a l ly tr a v e l w i t h m e . 20 H e - h e a s k e d m e h o w t h e r e n o v a ti o n s w e r e g o in g a n d i f I h a d e n o u g h m o n e y. I t is th e n I r e c a l l C h a ir t h a t I to ld G e n e r a l L a z a r u s it w a s - I w a s g o in g t o u s e t h e m o n e y fr o m th e s a l e o f th e R 3 2 t o s o r t o u t t h e r e n o v a t io n s . G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a s a w a r e o f th is tr a n s a c ti o n C h a ir a n d my e x a c t w o r d s t o h i m w e r e I a m g o i n g t o j a c k u p th e p r i c e o f the 32 by 40. Page 144 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 S i m p ly m e a n i n g C h a ir, I w a s g o i n g to i n f l a te t h e p r ic e o f t h e R 3 2 b y R 4 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir when I to l d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t h is h e w a s n o t u p s e t o r a n g r y i n a n y w a y n o r d i d h e r e p r i m a n d m e i n a n y w a y. I n f a c t h e n o d d e d h is h e a d w h i c h in d ic a t e d t h a t h e w a s o k a y w it h w h a t I j u s t t o l d h i m . C h a ir a t a l a te r s t a g e F M 11 a n d I w e n t t o D u r b a n a n d m e t L a l u a t a s h o p p in g c e n t r e . I c a n n o t r e c a l l t h e n a m e o f t h e s h o p p i n g c e n tr e . 10 When we a r r iv e d t h e r e I s a t in t h e c a r C h a ir a n d t o ld C o l o n e l F M 11 to g o a h e a d and meet with Lalu. O n h is r e t u r n C o l o n e l F M 11 h a n d e d m e a m o n e y b a g a n d s a i d i t is s o r t e d . T h is I b e l i e v e C h a ir w a s t h e m o n e y t h a t w a s t h e - th e in f la t e d p r ic e o f R 4 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 o n t h e i n i t ia l - o n th e p u r c h a s e o f t h is s p e c if ic v e h i c l e . I d i d n o t o p e n o r c o u n t th e m o n e y C h a ir. I t o l d F M 11 th a t h e m u s t k e e p t h e m o n e y w i t h h i m a s h e s ti ll n e e d e d t o s e t t le t h e o u t s t a n d i n g m o d i fic a ti o n s d o n e t o th e c a r b y L a l u . There was some o th e r s t u ff t h a t w a s d o n e C h a ir. I t h i n k t h e r e w a s s o m e m o d i fic a ti o n s d o n e t o t h e e x h a u s t a n d t h e r e w a s - th e m a g s w e r e r e p la c e d . 20 I c a n n o t r e c a ll e x a c t ly b u t e v e n t u a ll y w h a t h a p p e n e d C h a i r a ft e r r e c o n c il i n g a ll o f t h e s e p a y m e n t s th e r e w a s 2 0 - R 2 5 0 0 0 , 0 0 l e f t o v e r fr o m t h e R 4 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : At that stage when C o l o n e l F M 11 w a s h a n d i n g m e o v e r t h e - th e c a s h o f R 2 5 0 0 0 , 0 0 h e Page 145 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 told me that his washing machine had packed up and that he needed to b u y a w a s h in g m a c h in e . C h a ir, I g a v e h i m R 5 0 0 0 , 0 0 fr o m t h a t - fr o m t h e - fr o m t h e a m o u n t o f 2 5 a n d t h e b a la n c e o f R 2 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 I u s e d fo r t h e r e n o v a t io n s t o my h o u s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Then Colonel Naidoo can you deal with the p u r c h a s e o f a ir l i n e ti c k e ts ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a i r i f I m a y b e f o r e I g o there. 10 I m u s t a l s o s t a te th a t i t w a s n o t n o r m a l p r a c ti c e fo r C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e t o p u r c h a s e v e h ic l e s fr o m p r iv a te in d i v i d u a ls . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Th a n k y o u C o l o n e l N a i d o o . W i ll y o u n o w d e a l w i t h t h e p u r c h a s in g o f t h e a ir l in e ti c k e t s ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir. C h a ir w h e n G e n e r a l M d l u l i w a s a p p o i n t e d in 2 0 0 9 a l m o s t i m m e d i a te ly C h a i r h e w a s fl y i n g t o C a p e To w n a l m o s t e v e r y w e e k . I n it i a l ly I u s e d to ta k e - o n in s t r u c t i o n o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s I u s e d t o t a k e a n a d v a n c e o n m y n a m e . G o t o t h e a ir p o r t a n d p a y f o r t h e - fo r h is fl ig h t a n d s u b s e q u e n t ly h a n d t h e a ir t ic k e t t o G e n e r a l M d l u l i . C h a ir th is w a s p u t t in g q u i t e s o m e p r e s s u r e o n m e b e c a u s e 20 b a s ic a lly t h is w a s a l m o s t e v e r y w e e k t h a t G e n e r a l M d l u l i w a s e i t h e r fl y i n g to C a p e To w n o r h e w a s fl y i n g s o m e w h e r e b u t m o s t o f t h e tr i p s I r e m e m b e r w e r e t o C a p e To w n . C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s i t l ik e o v e r w e e k e n d s o r d u r i n g th e w e e k d a y s o r both? Page 146 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir m o s t - m o s t o f te n i t w o u ld b e fr o m a F r i d a y t o a M o n d a y a n d s o m e in s t a n c e s Th u r s d a y t o a S u n d a y o r M o n d a y. S o - s o y o u c o r r e c t in s a y i n g t h a t i t w a s m o s t ly over weekends. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir, I a ls o recall b o o k i n g f li g h t s f o r t w o i n d iv i d u a ls li n k e d t o G e n e r a l M d lu li . M s T L y o n s a n d E K Ly o n s . C h a ir a t t h a t s ta g e Ms Ly o n s w a s G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s g ir l fr i e n d a n d E K Ly o n s w a s h e r s is t e r. 10 C h a ir, I a l s o m a d e b o o k in g s f o r - f o r h is t w o c h i ld r e n w h o s e n a m e s a r e k n o w n t o m e b u t I w il l n o t m e n ti o n t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s , c o n t in u e . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir a l l o f t h e s e - a ll o f t h e s e b o o k in g s f o r fl ig h t ti c k e ts w e r e p a i d o u t o f th e S e c r e t S e r v ic e Account. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir l ik e I m e n t io n e d in it i a l ly i t w a s c a s h p a y m e n ts t h a t I w o u ld t a k e in a d v a n c e a n d g o a n d p a y f o r t h e s e t ic k e ts … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : B u t l ik e I s a i d th e - t h e fl ig h ts w e r e a l m o s t e v e r y w e e k . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : E v e n t u a ll y a r r a n g e m e n t s w e r e m a d e to b o o k t ic k e ts th r o u g h W e s tv il l e C o m p a n y - W e s tv i ll e Page 147 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 Tr a v e l - p a r d o n m e C h a ir. I p r e v i o u s l y t e s ti f ie d to W e s t v i ll e Tr a v e l a n d t h e ir r o l e in - w i t h r e g a r d t o th e fl i g h t tic k e ts i n s o fa r a s C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e g o e s . Th e p r o c e s s w a s t h a t I w o u ld g e t a n i n s tr u c ti o n fr o m ( in t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : D o - d o y o u k n o w - I a m s o r r y. D o y o u k n o w o f a n y r e a s o n w h y w h e n y o u w e r e a ll o p e r a ti n g fr o m G a u t e n g th e t r a v e l a g e n t in D u r b a n h a d t o b e u s e d - W e s tv ill e Tr a v e l A g e n t s ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : o f F M - F M 0 8 C h a ir. 10 C h a i r t h i s w a s a c o n ta c t F M 0 8 w a s p r e v io u s ly b a s e d in K Z N . He was a C o n s t a b l e th e r e p r i o r to b e i n g a p p o in t e d d u r i n g t h e 2 5 0 p o s ts … CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A n d h e w a s tr a n s f e r r e d t o - t o H e a d O ffi c e . S o t h is w a s F M 0 8 ’s c o n t a c t . H e m a d e u s e o f t h is p a r t ic u l a r t r a v e l a g e n t w h il e h e w a s b a s e d i n D u r b a n C h a ir. S o w h e n F M 0 8 r e l o c a te d t o G a u te n g h e w a s b a s e d a t H e a d O ff ic e C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e . W e u s e d t h i s c o n ta c t a n d I k n o w t h is p e r s o n b y t h e n a m e o f M a h e s h w a s in t r o d u c e d o r - i n tr o d u c e d t o m e b y F M 0 8 . S o i n t e r m s o f G e n e r a l M d l u l i ’s fl ig h ts C h a ir w h e n e v e r h e w a n t e d t o fl y a n i n s tr u c ti o n 20 o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s . I w o u ld e i t h e r g e t th e d e t a il s fr o m G e n e r a l M d l u l i h i m s e l f o r v ia G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d I w o u l d m a k e th e b o o k in g s t e l e p h o n ic a l ly w i t h M a h e s h w h o is a tr a v e l a g e n t a t W e s t v il l e Tr a v e l. C h a ir th is w a s a l l d o n e t e le p h o n ic a l ly. p a p e r w o r k fo r a n y o f t h e s e f li g h t s … CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. Page 148 of 182 There was no 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : O r a p p r o v a ls o r a n y t h i n g t o t h a t e ff e c t . CHAIRPERSON: B u t W e s tv il le Tr a v e l A g e n t s w o u l d h a v e s o m e records? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir, I b e l ie v e th e y w o u ld . C H A I R P E R S O N : I w o u l d - f o r th e ir o w n p u r p o s e s t h e y w o u ld h a v e k e p t some records I guess. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : 10 I - I b e li e v e th e y w o u l d h a v e r e c o r d s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : H m . CHAIRPERSON: B u t y o u d o n o t k n o w d o y o u w h e th e r a s p a r t o f h is in v e s t i g a t io n C o lo n e l R o e lo f s e h a s m a d e c o n t a c t w i t h t h e m a n d h a s t h e ir r e c o r d s o r p a r t o f t h e ir r e c o r d s ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir, I p r e v i o u s ly - p r e v i o u s ly t e s ti f ie d t o a n in c i d e n t w h e r e p l a n s w e r e m a d e t o - t o d e s tr o y e v i d e n c e r e g a r d i n g t h e a ir t ic k e ts . C o lo n e l R o e l o f s e w o u l d h a v e d o c u m e n ts r e l a ti n g to t h i s p a r t ic u l a r s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r - W e s tv i ll e 20 Tr a v e l . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: C o l o n e l N a id o o i f - j u s t t o c l a r i fy t h is . Was t h a t s h o r tl y b e fo r e y o u w e n t in t o w i tn e s s p r o t e c t io n w h e n y o u h a d th is m e e ti n g a r o u n d t h e b r a a i a r e a o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ h o u s e ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : 1 9 O c to b e r 2 0 11 . Ye s C h a ir. T h is w a s o n T h i s w a s t w o d a y s b e f o r e I w a s a d m i t te d i n t o t h e Page 149 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 W i tn e s s P r o te c t i o n P r o g r a m . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And after you had spoken to C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e - t h e r e c o r d s t h a t w e r e m e n t i o n e d in c o n n e c ti o n w i t h d e s tr u c t io n w e r e t h e y r e c o r d s o f th e W e s t v i ll e Tr a v e l A g e n c y ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s Chair but more e s p e c i a l ly i t w o u ld b e r e g a r d i n g C r i m e In t e lli g e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Th a t is w h a t I a m t a lk in g a b o u t in s o f a r a s t h e y 10 r e l a t e d t o C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h a t w a s - th a t p l a n w a s carried out? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C o lo n e l N a i d o o y o u s a y o n p a g e 5 8 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t t h a t y o u k n o w t h e n u m b e r o f r e n o v a t io n s t h a t w e r e c a r r i e d o u t u s in g t h e S S A a c c o u n t o n t h e i n s tr u c t io n o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s . C o u l d y o u d e a l w i th t h o s e ? 20 C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir th a t is c o r r e c t . I k n o w o f t h e fo ll o w i n g r e n o v a ti o n s t h a t w e r e c a r r i e d o u t w i th S e c r e t S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t m o n e y. C h a i r t h i s w a s a n in s t r u c t i o n - o n t h e in s t r u c t i o n o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s . C h a ir a n d I r e f e r t o p a r a g r a p h 2 4 7 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Page 150 of 182 C h a ir N c h w e who I 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 p r e v i o u s ly - p r e v io u s ly te s ti fi e d t o r e c e iv i n g a v e h ic le fr o m C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e . Essexwold C h a ir s h e h a d a b u r g la r y a t h e r h o u s e . C h a ir in B e d f o r d v i e w. On - on the It was in i n s tr u c ti o n of G e n e r a l L a z a r u s C h a ir e l e c tr ic f e n c i n g , s e c u r i t y b e a m s a n d a n a l a r m s y s te m w a s i n s ta ll e d . I p e r s o n a lly k n o w o f t h i s b e c a u s e I p u t in a c la i m o n m y n a m e . C h a ir a g a i n R 4 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 . C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In d is ti n c t) o f a p p r o x i m a t e ly R 4 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : 10 T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. I c a n n o t s a y e x a c t ly b u t i f th e d o c u m e n ts a r e s h o w n t o m e I c a n c o n fir m but I know that I put in a claim for approximately R40 000,00. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d y o u s a i d t h e c la i m w a s i n y o u r n a m e ? C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s t h e o b s e s s i o n w i t h R 4 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir, I r e a ll y d o n o t k n o w. I t h i n k w e - o n c e t h e in v e s t i g a t io n s a r e d o n e m a y b e w e w i ll h a v e m o r e i n s i g h t i n t o t h e s e t h in g s . CHAIRPERSON: W a s t h e r e a n y th in g l ik e i f i t i s a b o v e R 4 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 m a y b e th e r e w e r e c e r t a i n p r o c e d u r a l r e q u ir e m e n ts o r c e r t a i n t h i n g s to be done and you have to keep it not more than R40 000,00 or 20 s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I w o u l d b e s p e c u l a ti n g i f I s a y a n y t h in g C h a ir. I a m n o t c e r ta i n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . Ye s . C o n t in u e . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir 2 4 8 - I a m a l s o a w a r e o f r e n o v a t i o n s c a r r ie d o u t a t t h e r e s i d e n c e o f G e n e r a l M d l u l i i n Page 151 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 D a w n P a r k i n Vo s l o o r u s . General Lazarus. C h a ir, h e - t h i s a l s o o n th e i n s tr u c t io n o f H e h a d a s e c u r i ty o v e r a l l b y i n s t a l li n g e l e c tr ic f e n c i n g , s e c u r i ty b e a m s a n d a n a la r m s y s t e m , n e w e l e c tr o n i c g a te s , c a m e r a s , b u r g l a r b a r s w e r e a ls o p u r c h a s e d . C h a ir t h i s w a s p a id o u t o f th e S S A . I s a y th is b e c a u s e I p e r s o n a l ly p u t i n a n a m o u n t t o t a l li n g a n d it is n o t 4 0 0 0 0 C h a ir. I t is 200 000. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 10 A n d a g a i n w a s t h a t c l a i m p u t i n , in y o u r name? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: S o d o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r i n s o m e c a s e s e v e n w it h r e g a r d t o G e n e r a l M d l u li G e n e r a l L a z a r u s c o u l d ju s t s a y s o m e t h in g li k e it l o o k s lik e y o u k n o w y o u n e e d s o m e s e c u r i t y u p g r a d e in y o u r h o u s e ? L e t u s d o th a t o r s a y t o y o u C o l o n e l N a i d o o d o y o u n o t n e e d r e n o v a t io n s t o b e m a d e in y o u r h o u s e o r d o y o u n o t n e e d a n e w c a r. Does your wife not need a new car and then things would t h e n b e b o u g h t o n t h e - w i th S - w i th th e S e c r e t S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t m o n e y. I m e a n o n e - o n e g e ts th e i m p r e s s io n th a t y o u k n o w m o n e y w a s 20 ju s t b e i n g d i s h e d o u t . H m . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir t h a t is e x a c t ly w h a t h a p p e n e d c h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s . C h a ir, I a l s o r e fe r t o A n n e x u r e 1 3 a n a p p l ic a t i o n f o r t h e - t h e s e - a s I h a v e m e n ti o n e d i n Page 152 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 p a r a g r a p h 2 4 8 f o r t h e s e r e n o v a t io n s o r - o r s e c u r i t y u p g r a d e s t o b e carried out. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir i t is v e r y, v e r y u n c l e a r. Th e c o p y is n o t v e r y g o o d b u t t h is w a s a d o c u m e n t t h a t w a s authored by myself. CHAIRPERSON: What page? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir i t i s p a g e 1 2 1 . CHAIRPERSON: 121? 10 C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W h a t d o c u m e n t i t t h a t ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir r e g a r d i n g w h a t I h a v e j u s t t e s t if i e d to i n p a r a g r a p h 2 4 8 . I t w a s a n a p p li c a t io n f o r t h e s e upgrades to be carried out. C H A I R P E R S O N : A t G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s D a w n P a r k R e s id e n c e ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o th is i s - th is i s a n a p p l ic a ti o n t h a t y o u h a d to make to whom? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : 20 This was to G e n e r a l L a z a r u s fo r h is s ig n a t u r e . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : H is s ig n a tu r e i s o n t h e b o t t o m a s b e i n g a p p r o v e d . I t w a s a ls o s i g n e d b y C o l o n e l R o l e b i le ( ? ) C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 153 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Th is d o c u m e n t r e fe r s t o t o t h e - to t h e u p g r a d e s a t G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s h o u s e . I t w a s a p p r o v e d b y General Lazarus. C H A I R P E R S O N : D id th e - d i d t h is - d i d t h e f a c t th a t t h i s w a s i n w r i ti n g a n d t h a t i t w a s a p p r o v e d d i d i t m a k e i t le g it i m a t e o r th a t h a d n o th in g t o d o w i th i ts l e g i ti m a c y ? It was just because it had to be done. There h a d to b e s o m e p a p e r w o r k . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir, I - I b e li e v e t h a t t h e r e h a d to b e s o m e p a p e r w o r k j u s t t o le g it i m is e t h is p a r t ic u l a r 10 tr a n s a c ti o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : B u t h a v i n g s a id t h a t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I do not know what the p o li c y i s r e g a r d i n g s e c u r i ty u p g r a d e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l - s o y o u w o u l d n o t k n o w w h e t h e r G e n e r a l M d lu li w a s e n t it l e d t o a n y s e c u r i ty u p g r a d e i n h is r e s id e n c e a t t h e e x p e n s e o f C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I c a n n o t b e c e r ta i n C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. C o n ti n u e . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C o l o n e l N a id o o w h ic h o th e r u p g r a d e s … C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I a m s o r r y w e a r e a t f iv e p a s t o n e b u t I t h i n k w e a r e c l o s e to fi n is h i n g . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I t h i n k le t u s j u s t g o o n a n d f in is h a n d th e n … Page 154 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e c a n t a k e - a d jo u r n f o r t h e d a y. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. Is th a t fi n e w it h y o u C o l o n e l N a i d o o ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is fi n e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: r e n o v a t io n s that were C o l o n e l N a id o o c o u l d y o u t h e n d e a l w i t h t h e c a r r ie d out to M i n is t e r N a t h i M t h e t h w a ’s p r o p e r ty ? 10 C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : p e r s o n a l ly involved in th is tr a n s a c t io n . Ye s I C h a ir, was I was i n fo r m e d by G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t h a t w e n e e d e d to d o s o m e u p g r a d e s a t th e M in is t e r ’s h o u s e . C h a ir, I a m n o t s u r e w h e r e t h i s i n s tr u c t io n c a m e fr o m b u t w i th r e g a r d s t o my s e l f i t c a m e fr o m G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t o m e . C h a ir th is w a s t o p u t u p a b o u n d a r y w a ll . T h is w a s a t t h e M i n is t e r ’s h o u s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I t h i n k I h a v e - I t h o u g h t y o u w e r e g o in g t o 2 - 4 - 9 . Yo u h a v e g o n e b e y o n d t h a t h e y. Wa s 2 - 4 - 9 ta k e n c a r e o f ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : W e a r e a t 2 - 5 … 20 A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I t w a s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A r e y o u … ? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t d e a ls w i t h t h a t a n n e x u r e th a t w a s s o b a d l y … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. A r e y o u a t 2 - 5 - 1 n o w ? A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . Page 155 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . Ye s c o n ti n u e . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : in s t r u c t i o n b y G e n e r a l L a z a r u s . C h a ir, I was g iv e n C h a ir, I - I ju s t w a n t t o c o r r e c t t h i s 2-5-1 and I am going to read it. “ G e n e r a l L a z a r u s i n fo r m e d m e t h a t I r e c e iv e d a n that he had received an i n s tr u c ti o n fr o m G e n e r a l M d l u l i w h o h a d r e c e iv e d a n i n s tr u c t io n fr o m M i n is t e r M t h e th w a . ” C h a ir, I - I a m n o t s u r e a b o u t t h a t . 10 I - I can say that I r e c e i v e d a n in s tr u c ti o n fr o m G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d h e r e c e i v e d a n in s t r u c t i o n fr o m G e n e r a l M d l u l i . Th is p a r t I a m n o t s u r e o f . CHAIRPERSON: H e d i d n o t s a y t o y o u t h a t G e n e r a l M d lu li h a d r e c e i v e d a n in s t r u c ti o n fr o m t h e M i n i s te r ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o t h is w a s a n e r r o r o n y o u r p a r t ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d th e in s tr u c ti o n f r o m G e n e r a l M d lu li a c c o r d i n g 20 to General Lazarus … C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : G e n e r a l L a z a r u s . CHAIRPERSON: Was? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t a r r a n g e m e n ts b e m a d e fo r th e c o n s t r u c t i o n o f a b o u n d a r y w a ll C h a ir. T h i s w a s o n t h e for - or rather on the perimeter of Page 156 of 182 - of the r e s id e n c e of 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 M i n is t e r N a t h i M t h e t h w a . Chair t h is was in KwaMbonambi in KwaZulu-Natal. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir, I k n o w w h e r e t h e p r e m is e s is b e c a u s e I h a d p r e v i o u s ly g o n e t h e r e . K w a Z u l u - N a t a l C h a ir a n d I s a y w e . myself. We flew to - to I r e fe r to G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d H e w a s h a v in g a m e e ti n g w i th M in is te r M t h e t h w a a n d I h a d - d r o v e h i m th e r e to t h i s p a r ti c u l a r p r e m is e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : So I know where the p r e m is e s is . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir s u b s e q u e n tl y m a d e o n th e i n s tr u c ti o n o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s I tr a v e ll e d w i t h F M 0 9 t o t h e M i n is t e r ’s p r o p e r ty t o m e e t w it h a n o t h e r a g e n t. C h a ir t h i s is F M 4 6 . T h i s w a s t h e a g e n t w h o w a s g o i n g t o o v e r s e e t h is p r o j e c t a t t h e M i n is t e r ’s h o u s e . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d s o d i d y o u fl y … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is M F - I a m s o r r y. F M 4 6 ? 20 C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : FM46 and I flew D u r b a n w i th F M 0 9 … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : To m e e t w i t h F M 4 6 . Page 157 of 182 to 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 C H A I R P E R S O N : H u h - u h . Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir t h is w a s p u r e l y t o f a m ili a r is e F M 4 6 a s t o w h e r e th e p r o p e r ty w a s a n d w h a t n e e d e d t o b e done. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : s u r e o n th is o c c a s i o n . C h a ir, I a m - I a m n o t General Lazarus accompanied us or on the s e c o n d o c c a s i o n b u t w h a t I c a n s a y w a s w h e n t h e p r o j e c t d id s t a r t I r e m e m b e r h a v i n g a c o n v e r s a t i o n w it h G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d h e s a i d t o m e 10 t h e M i n i s t e r w a n t e d t o k n o w w h y w e a r e t a k in g s o l o n g w it h th e p r o j e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir w h a t I u n d e r s t o o d t o b e is t h a t t h e M i n i s t e r i n q u ir e d fr o m G e n e r a l M d l u l i w h y w e a s i n C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e i s t a k i n g s o l o n g w it h th e p r o je c t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir, I i n fo r m e d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a b o u t t h e c o n v e r s a t io n t h a t I h a d w i t h G e n e r a l M d l u li . W e m a d e a r r a n g e m e n ts t o f ly t o - to K w a Zu l u - N a t a l . KwaMbonambi to meet with FM46. 20 D r o v e to Th is w a s m y s e l f , G e n e r a l L a z a r u s and FM09. C h a ir M in is t e r M t h e t h w a ’s - h is c o n c e r n s I w o u l d s a y w a s in d e e d c o r r e c t b e c a u s e th e r e w a s h a r d l y a n y w o r k d o n e . I t h i n k t h e r e w e r e ju s t a fe w tr e n c h e s t h a t w e r e - t h a t w e r e d u g . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I m u s t h a v e m is s e d s o m e th i n g . C o n c e r n s arising out of? Page 158 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir w i t h r e g a r d s to t h e p r o g r e s s o f t h e p r o j e c t C h a ir. I t w a s t a k i n g t o o l o n g . CHAIRPERSON: Oh, you mean the concerns about the delay? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : That is - that - that is c o r r e c t C h a ir b e c a u s e th is - th is tr i p c a m e a b o u t - t h e c o n v e r s a t i o n t h a t I h a d w i th G e n e r a l M d lu li t h e M i n i s t e r i n q u ir e d fr o m h i m w h y w e - w h y t h e p r o je c t w a s t a k i n g s o l o n g . T h is tr ip t h a t I u n d e r to o k w i th G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d F M 0 9 c a m e a b o u t fr o m t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n th a t I h a d w i t h G e n e r a l M d l u l i r e g a r d i n g th e - th e d e l a y in th e p r o je c t o r t h e 10 progress of the project. W e fl e w t o D u r b a n . M e t w i t h F M 4 6 a n d a s I s a i d C h a i r i n d e e d t h e - t h e p r o g r e s s w a s q u i t e s l o w. I t w a s v e r y s l o w i n f a c t . T h e r e w a s ju s t a f e w tr e n c h e s d o n e . I n t h a t c o n v e r s a t io n o r i n t h a t m e e ti n g G e n e r a l L a z a r u s p u t p r e s s u r e o n F M 4 6 t o e x p e d i t e th e p r o je c t . C h a ir t h e a r r a n g e m e n t f o r - f o r p a y m e n t fo r t h is w h o l e p r o j e c t a t th e M i n is t e r ’s p r o p e r ty I r e m e m b e r p u tt i n g in t h r e e c l a i m s C h a ir. I t w a s o v e r a p e r io d o f a f e w m o n th s . I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e e x a c t - t h e e x a c t f ig u r e b u t it w a s ju s t u n d e r R 2 0 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 . If the c la i m s a r e s h o w n t o m e C h a ir, I c a n c o n f ir m t h a t i t is m y s i g n a t u r e … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : And it was fo r that p a r t ic u l a r p r o j e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o a g a in C o lo n e l N a i d o o t h e c l a i m s w e r e p u t in u n d e r y o u r n a m e ? Page 159 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h o s e c l a i ms w o u l d r e la t e t o - t h a t is t o g e t m o n e y t o b u y - b u y m a t e r ia l a n d t o p a y f o r l a b o u r ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir th a t m o n e y w a s p a i d f o r - f o r l a b o u r, b u il d i n g m a te r i a l a n d o t h e r r e l a t e d e x p e n s e s t h a t were needed. C H A I R P E R S O N : Tr a v e ll in g ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o t s o m u c h tr a v e l li n g C h a ir b e c a u s e t h is w a s a n a g e n t . H e h a d a v e h ic l e . 10 He was making u s e o f a n S R v e h ic le a t t h a t s ta g e . S o th e r e w a s n o tr a v e l li n g c o s t . It w a s p u r e l y b u i l d i n g r e la t e d c o s ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o th e a c tu a l b u i l d i n g o f th e w a ll w a s u n d e r ta k e n b y an agent? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Th e - t h e a g e n t o v e r s a w t h is p r o j e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Oh. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s th a t i s c o r r e c t. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , h e o v e r s a w th e p r o j e c t … C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is … 20 CHAIRPERSON: B u t d id n o t n e c e s s a r i ly d o t h e a c tu a l b u il d i n g o f t h e w a ll ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir. Th e r e w e r e lo c a l … C H A I R P E R S O N : H e g o t s o m e b o d y e ls e t o d o t h a t ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Page 160 of 182 T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 T h e r e w e r e lo c a l - l o c a l c o n tr a c t o r s … C H A I R P E R S O N : C o n tr a c to r s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : H ir e d to do this p a r t ic u l a r w o r k . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. W h a t - d i d t h e - th e w a ll t h a t o r th e w a l l t h a t w a s b u i l t d i d i t g o r ig h t r o u n d t h e h o u s e o r t h e r e w a s a n o t h e r w a l l a n d t h e r e w a s m a y b e o n e s i d e o r t w o s i d e s t h a t d i d n o t h a v e a w a ll o r w h a t w a s t h e p o s i ti o n ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir i t w a s a p e r i m e t e r 10 it s h o u l d h a v e b e e n p e r i m e t e r w a ll . I a m n o t c e r ta i n C h a ir b e c a u s e I c a n n o t c o m m e n t b e c a u s e I - I d id n o t g o b a c k t o K w a M b o n a m b i a f te r t h is m e e ti n g t h a t w e h a d w i t h t h e a g e n t . S o I c a n n o t s a y f o r c e r ta i n . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h e n y o u w e n t t h e r e b e f o r e - b e f o r e t h e w a ll w a s b u il t w a s th e r e a w a l l t h a t w a s t h e r e a lr e a d y. E i t h e r g o i n g r i g h t r o u n d t h e h o u s e o r w a s t h e r e n o w a l l a t a ll o r w a s th e r e a w a ll t h a t c o v e r e d o n e s id e o f t h e h o u s e a n d n o t o t h e r s i d e s ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir i f I c a n r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t ly w h e n y o u e n t e r t h e p r e m is e s t h e r e w e r e t w o p i ll a r s o n t h e e n tr a n c e , a n d if I c a n r e c a l l c o r r e c tl y t h e r e w a s fe n c in g C h a ir, w ir e 20 fencing. CHAIRPERSON: Wire fencing? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . Ye s c o n ti n u e . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: C o lo n e l N a i d o o u n d e r th e h e a d i n g m is c e ll a n e o u s d o y o u h a v e p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e o f w h a t i s s t a te d in Page 161 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 y o u r s t a t e m e n t u n d e r t h a t h e a d in g ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir I referred to p a r a g r a p h 2 5 3 , I r e m e m b e r h a v i n g a c o n v e r s a t io n w it h F M 4 6 , C h a ir th is w a s a r o u n d t h e t i m e t h a t p r e p a r a ti o n s w e r e u n d e r ta k e n f o r Mr M a r i m u t h u ’s b ir th d a y p a r t y i n K Z N . C h a ir F M 4 6 c o m p la i n e d t o m e th a t t h e d e m a n d s fr o m M r M a r i m u t h u w e r e i n c r e a s i n g a n d th a t th e b i ll w a s e s c a l a t in g . Th is is th e c o n v e r s a t i o n t h a t I h a d w i t h F M 4 6 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 10 A n d t h e fu r t h e r t h i n g s s ta t e d ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h i s is th e c o n v e r s a ti o n I c a n r e c a ll C h a ir w i th F M 4 6 . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y, w h e r e a r e y o u n o w M s W e n t z e l ? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: On page 60, paragraph 253 onwards. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: T h e o th e r e v e n ts d o y o u h a v e p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e o f th e m s ta t e d t h e ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir I a ls o had a c o n v e r s a ti o n w i th G e n e r a l L a z a r u s , I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e ti m e p e r i o d 20 w h e r e h e i n fo r m e d m e t h a t G e n e r a l B h e k i C e l e a ll o w e d h i m to u s e m o n e y fr o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t t o p a y fo r h is a t to r n e y ’s f e e s . C h a ir t h is w a s a t i m e w h e n G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a s b e i n g in v e s ti g a t e d b y t h e H a w k s . A t t h a t s t a g e G e n e r a l M d l u li w a s s u s p e n d e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o j u s t r e p e a t t h a t? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Page 162 of 182 Chair li k e I said I 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 remember having a conversation with General Lazarus where he in f o r m e d m e G e n e r a l B h e k i C e le a l lo w e d h i m t o u s e m o n e y fr o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e a c c o u n t t o p a y fo r h is a t t o r n e y s fe e s . C h a ir t h i s w a s w h e n t h e H a w k s w a s in v e s t i g a t in g G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d a t th a t s t a g e G e n e r a l B h e k i C e l e w a s a N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A n d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s s a id G e n e r a l C e l e g a v e h i m p e r m is s i o n t o u s e t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e A c c o u n t fu n d s to p a y fo r h is , t h a t i s G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ a t to r n e y s f e e s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: T h a n k y o u . C o l o n e l N a id o o c o u l d y o u t e l l th e C h a ir w h e t h e r y o u s u b m i tt e d f a ls e c l a i m s f o r y o u r o w n b e n e fi t d u r i n g t h e ti m e t h a t y o u w e r e e m p l o y e d a t C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir, l ik e I t e s t i fi e d t o e a r l ie r i n m y s t a t e m e n t o r i n m y t e s t i m o n y i t w a s p r o b a b ly a r o u n d R 1 0 0 0 0 0 C h a ir, I c a n n o t b e s u r e , i t m i g h t b e m o r e t h a n t h a t , b u t l ik e I s a i d I w il l o n ly c o n f ir m w h e n th e c l a i m s a r e s h o w n t o m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 20 Now Colonel Naidoo after you were placed in w i tn e s s p r o t e c t io n d id y o u te s ti fy a t d is c ip li n a r y p r o c e e d i n g s b r o u g h t b y t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n P o lic e S e r v ic e s a g a i n s t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s i n M a r c h 2013? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a i r i n 2 0 1 3 o n b e h a l f o f t h e p o l ic e I w a s a w i t n e s s in t h e d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e e d i n g s o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s , C h a ir i f I – o f w h a t I u n d e r s t a n d h e w a s s u b s e q u e n t ly Page 163 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 d is m i s s e d fr o m t h e p o l ic e . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: A n d c o u ld y o u t e l l t h e C h a ir w h a t o c c u r r e d at those proceedings? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Chair during that p r o c e e d i n g s C h a ir I w a s a c c u s e d o r r a t h e r le t m e p u t i t . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: W e ll l e t u s s t a r t w i th w h a t w e r e t h e c h a r g e s th a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a s f a c i n g , y o u d o n o t h a v e n e c e s s a r i ly t o – I d o n o t e x p e c t y o u n e c e s s a r ily to b e e x a c t in te r m s o f h o w th e y w e r e te r m e d b u t i n te r ms o f s u b s t a n c e w h a t , a s f a r a s y o u k n o w w h a t c h a r g e s w a s 10 h e f a c in g ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir it was a few in c i d e n ts r e g a r d i n g h i s c o n d u c t w h il e t h e C F O o f th e S e c r e t S e r v i c e A c c o u n t C h a ir, I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r th e e x a c t c h a r g e s b u t o n e w a s f o r t h e s a f e h o u s e t h a t h e l iv e d in w h il e h e w a s r e n o v a t in g h is h o u s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d s o m e o f t h e a ll e g a t i o n s r e la t e t o m a t t e r s th a t y o u h a v e c o v e r e d i n y o u r e v i d e n c e in t h is C o m m i s s i o n r e la t in g to t h e . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir, y e s C h a ir, i f I c a n r e m e m b e r c o r r e c tl y i t w a s . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , o k a y s o w a s i t fr a u d r e l a t e d , c o r r u p ti o n r e l a t e d a l le g a ti o n s ? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: CHAIRPERSON: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Ye s o k a y a n d y o u s a y h e w a s f o u n d g u il ty a n d w a s d is m i s s e d ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 164 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y a n d y o u w e r e a b o u t to s a y s o m e th i n g a b o u t y o u r s e l f . Yo u g a v e e v id e n c e i n t h a t d is c ip l in a r y in q u ir y ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, w a s y o u r e v i d e n c e – w e r e t h e a ll e g a t io n s b a s e d to a v e r y l a r g e e x t e n t o n y o u r e v i d e n c e o r i s t h a t s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u a r e u n a b l e to s a y ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I t i s a fe w m a t t e r s t h a t I h a v e c o v e r e d a lr e a d y in m y te s ti m o n y C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , s o – b u t w h a t I m e a n i s y o u r e v id e n c e w a s 10 a s f a r a s y o u k n o w q u i te i m p o r t a n t fo r th e d is c i p l i n a r y in q u ir y, o r is t h a t something you do not know? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I w o u ld b e li e v e C h a ir, I a m n o t s u r e th e a c tu a l, w h a t w a s t h e a c t u a l o u t c o m e o r th e – o n w h a t g r o u n d s G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a s d i s m is s e d , I d o n o t h a v e t h e d e t a i l. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , y o u d o n o t k n o w w h a t h e w a s d is m is s e d fo r ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u d o n o t k n o w t h e o u t c o m e o f t h a t d is c ip li n a r y process? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : 20 I know that he was d is m i s s e d fr o m t h e p o l ic e C h a i r b u t I d o n o t k n o w th e c ir c u m s ta n c e s o n w h ic h c h a r g e s h e w a s f o u n d g u i l ty. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t d o y o u k n o w w h e th e r h is d is m is s a l e m a n a t e d fr o m t h e d i s c i p li n a r y i n q u ir y in w h ic h y o u t e s ti f ie d ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , w h a t y o u d o n o t k n o w is w h ic h o f t h e c h a r g e s h e Page 165 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 m a y h a v e b e e n f o u n d g u il ty o f? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , b u t t h e d is m i s s a l fo ll o w e d t h e d i s c ip li n a r y h e a r in g i n w h ic h y o u t e s ti f ie d ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t , Ms W e n tz e l? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: W h a t t r a n s p i r e d a t t h a t d i s c ip li n a r y in q u ir y Colonel Naidoo? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ] 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m ig h t w is h t o f o r m u l a te y o u r q u e s t io n m u c h m o r e n a r r o w ly b e c a u s e I t h in k I k n o w w h a t y o u a r e lo o k in g fo r, b u t i f y o u p u t it lik e th a t y o u a r e i n v i ti n g h i m t o t e l l u s e v e r y t h i n g a b o u t th a t i n q u ir y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Colonel Naidoo did s o m e t h i n g . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll l e t m e p u t i t fo r y o u . D id y o u e v e r g e t a c h a n c e s u b s e q u e n t t o th a t d is c i p l i n a r y i n q u ir y t o k n o w t h e fi n d i n g s t h a t w e r e m a d e b y t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h a t i n q u ir y, e i t h e r i n – j a i n w r i t in g , d i d 20 y o u e v e r g e t t o k n o w h is r u l in g o r h i s d e c i s io n a n d th e r e a s o n s t h a t h e g a v e f o r h is d e c i s i o n ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : t h a t C h a ir. N o I w a s n o t p r iv y t o I have not seen any document. CHAIRPERSON: As you speak today have you been given that d o c u m e n t in p r e p a r a ti o n f o r t h i s – in p r e p a r a t io n fo r y o u r e v i d e n c e i n Page 166 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 t h is C o m m is s i o n ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : CHAIRPERSON: N o C h a ir. O k a y, w e l l Ms W e n tz e l m i g h t h a v e s o m e t h i n g t o s a y a b o u t t h a t. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Mmm, how come? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: C h a ir i t w a s i n d o u b t b y h i m , w e h a v e s u b s e q u e n t to o b t a i n in g , t o p r e p a r i n g t h e s t a te m e n t I b e li e v e th a t b e c a u s e A d v o c a t e Pr e t o r i u s w a s in v o lv e d i n t h is d is c ip li n a r y i n q u i r y 10 t h a t n o w t h a t d o c u m e n t h a s b e c o m e a v a il a b l e t o th e C o m m i s s i o n , a n d i t c a n b e d e a l t w i t h , w i th h i m , b u t i t h a s n o t b e e n d e a l t w i t h w i th h i m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t h o w c a n it b e d e a l t w i t h h i m n o w w i th o u t h i m h a v i n g h a d a c h a n c e t o r e a d th e r u li n g a n d u n d e r s t a n d e x a c tl y w h a t i t s a y s a n d h o w i t a ff e c ts h i m . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: H e . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : It c o u l d h a v e b e e n g iv e n t o h i m e v e n la s t w e e k . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s , i t c o u l d h a v e . C H A I R P E R S O N : A s I u n d e r s t a n d i t th e – y o u o r M r P e te r s e n y o u w e r e a w a r e o f i t a t th e ti m e o f e v e n b e f o r e C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e g a v e e v i d e n c e . 20 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t c o u l d h a v e b e e n g iv e n t o h i m t h e n t o r e a d a n d u n d e r s t a n d a n d h e c o u l d h a v e b e e n to ld t h a t h e w o u l d b e a s k e d a b o u t it . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s , C h a ir t o c l a r i f y w h a t w a s n o t d e a l t w i t h w a s g o in g th r o u g h t h e e n tir e tr a n s c r ip t , b u t w h a t w a s c e r t a i n ly d e a l t Page 167 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 w i t h w i t h h i m w e r e th e fi n d i n g s t h a t M r P r e to r i u s m a d e a b o u t h i m a n d h is c r e d ib il i ty. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s b r o u g h t t o h is a tt e n ti o n ? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: T h a t w a s b r o u g h t t o h is a tt e n ti o n ? C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: A n d i t w a s b r o u g h t to h is a tt e n ti o n i n th e c o n te x t o f t h e in c a m e r a a p p li c a t io n , a n d C h a ir y o u w i ll r e m e m b e r t h a t in t h a t c o n te x t M i n is t e r C e le ’s c o u n s e l h a d s a id th a t t h i s s h o u l d n o t b e h e a r d i n c a m e r a a n d th a t h e is n o t a c r e d i b l e w i tn e s s , C o l o n e l N a i d o o , 10 a n d h e w a s s h o w n w h a t Mr P r e t o r iu s h a d s a id , a n d th a t w a s . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w a s h e n o t g iv e n t h e w h o l e r u l i n g t o r e a d ? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: H e w a s s h o w n t h e r u li n g t h a t w e h a d . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w a s s h o w n b u t n o t g i v e n t o ta k e h o m e a n d r e a d ? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: No not to take home and read. CHAIRPERSON: Why not? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: C h a ir b e c a u s e w e d e a l t w i t h i t d u r in g t h e c o u r s e o f t h e c o n s u l t a ti o n a n d w e .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ] 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t I a m s a y i n g i t i s o n ly f a ir t h a t h e s h o u l d h a v e a c o p y e s p e c i a l ly i f c e r t a in f in d i n g s w e r e m a d e t h a t a r e a d v e r s e t o h i m a n d – b e c a u s e t h a t m a y b e m a y c o m e u p , it is o n ly fa ir th a t h e s h o u ld h a v e t h e b e n e fi t o f r e a d i n g t h e w h o l e r u l in g . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s C h a ir, I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t a n d I a p p r e c ia t e t h a t , a n d I w a s n o t g o i n g t o d e a l a t t h is s t a g e w i t h th a t i n a n y m o r e Page 168 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 d e t a i l t h a n t o g iv e h i m a n o p p o r t u n i ty, w h ic h w e h a v e d i s c u s s e d , a n d w h ic h h e v e r y m u c h w a n t s t o d e a l w i t h , t h a t f in d i n g th a t w a s m a d e a g a in s t h i m a n d h e h a s c o m m e n ts th a t h e w o u ld lik e to m a k e o n t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a I a m c o n c e r n e d a b o u t g iv i n g h i m a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o c o m m e n t o n t h a t i n c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e h e h a s n o t h a d t h e b e n e fi t o f r e a d in g t h e w h o l e r u li n g , t h a t is m y c o n c e r n , a n d I d o n o t k n o w i f h e a p p r e c ia t e s t h e d is a d v a n t a g e t h a t h e m a y b e p u t ti n g h i ms e lf u n d e r i f h e w a n ts t o c o m m e n t o n p a r t o f t h e r u li n g w i t h o u t r e a d in g th e w h o le r u l i n g , a n d th e r e a s o n s . 10 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ye s C h a ir. C h a ir I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t d i ff ic u l ty, I d i d c o n t e m p l a t e th a t a f te r C o l o n e l N a id o o ’s e v id e n c e t h e r e w o u l d b e a n u m b e r o f a p p l ic a ti o n s t o c r o s s - e x a m in e C o lo n e l N a i d o o , We have a lr e a d y h a d c o m m u n i c a t i o n a t t h e C o m m i s s io n w i t h a n u m b e r o f p e o p l e s t a ti n g t h a t t h e y w o u l d lik e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e h i m a n d I v i e w e d th a t t h i s is a n i s s u e t h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n d e a lt w it h p r o p e r ly d u r i n g t h a t c r o s s e x a m in a ti o n , i f i t w e r e to b e g r a n te d . W h a t I w a n te d t o p u t t o C o l o n e l N a id o o a t t h is p o in t is t h a t h e is a w a r e t h a t b e c a u s e h e a d m it t e d to w r o n g d o i n g , i n t h e C o m m i s s io n h i m s e l f , Mr P r e to r i u s f o u n d t h a t th is w a s a m a n w h o o n h is o w n v e r s i o n 20 . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b u t t h a t is my p o i n t , w h y m u s t y o u e v e n d e a l w i t h t h a t b e f o r e y o u g iv e h i m a c h a n c e to r e a d th e w h o le j u d g m e n t. I t is o n ly f a ir. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. Ye s , w h y d o n ’ t y o u s a y y o u g iv e h i m t h e j u d g m e n t , Page 169 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 t h e r u l in g , h e r e a d s t h e w h o l e r u li n g , t h e n y o u s a y a f t e r th a t I w a n t t o p u t c e r ta i n q u e s t io n s t o y o u , t h e n h e c a n c o m m e n t w i t h a f u l l u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e c o n t e x t . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: C h a ir t h e – i f I m ig h t tr y a n d e x p l a i n to y o u w h a t h a p p e n e d is I m e t w i th C o l o n e l N a i d o o , a n d w e s p e n t a l o n g t i m e t o g e th e r a n d w e w e n t t h r o u g h t h i s w h o le a s p e c t, w e w e n t t h r o u g h t h e w h o le r u li n g t o g e t h e r. I d id n o t g i v e i t t o h i m a n d s a y g o a w a y w i t h i t a n d r e a d . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : S o h e h a s r e a d t h e w h o l e j u d g m e n t , t h e w h o l e r u l in g ? 10 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t w e w e n t th r o u g h t h a t w h o le p r o c e s s b u t c a n I j u s t d e a l w i t h i t ? C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, h a n g o n , C o l o n e l N a i d o o ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u u n d e r s t a n d t h e e x c h a n g e th a t I h a v e b e e n h a v i n g w i t h Ms W e n tz e l ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r r e a d in g t h e ju d g m e n t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , b u t I a m a s k i n g y o u w h e t h e r y o u h a v e b e e n f o ll o w i n g t h e e x c h a n g e b e tw e e n m y s e lf a n d Ms W e n tz e l ? 20 C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u h a p p y t o b e a s k e d q u e s t io n s o n a s p e c t s , o n w h a t e v e r a s p e c t s t h a t Ms W e n tz e l w a n t s to a s k y o u t o c o m m e n t o n w i t h o u t h a v i n g h a d t h e b e n e fi t o f r e a d i n g t h e w h o l e r u li n g f ir s t ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir t h is is not r e g a r d in g t h e a c t u a l tr a n s c r ip t a s p e r s e i n t o t a li ty I w o u l d j u s t lik e t o Page 170 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 s p e a k o n o n e a s p e c t o r i n c i d e n t t h a t o c c u r r e d d u r i n g t h i s p r o c e e d in g s C h a ir, s o it ’s n o t g o i n g t o p u t m e a t a d is a d v a n t a g e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: J a b u t w h y m u s t y o u s p e a k a b o u t th is p i e c e m e a l , a r e y o u n o t g o i n g t o w a n t t o d e a l la t e r w i t h o t h e r a s p e c t s o f th e r u l in g ? ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: C h a ir p e r h a p s w h a t w e c o u l d d o is , i f w e c o u l d a d jo u r n n o w a n d I c a n g iv e C o l o n e l N a id o o th e w h o l e r u l i n g , h e c a n h a v e a n o p p o r t u n i ty to g o t h r o u g h i t … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: N o , n o , n o I ’ m n o t h a p p y a b o u t th is . G iv e C o l o n e l N a i d o o th e w h o l e r u li n g , h e m u s t h a v e a c h a n c e to r e a d i t p r o p e r ly, h e 10 m i g h t n o t a p p r e c i a te c e r t a i n t h i n g s , h e m i g h t b e i n a r u s h t o c o m m e n t o n t h i n g s w i t h o u t r e a d in g it . H e m u s t b e g iv e n th e o p p o r t u n i ty to r e a d t h e w h o l e r u li n g p r o p e r ly a n d t h e n a t s o m e s t a g e o r a n o t h e r h e c a n t h e n d e a l w i t h i t . D e a l w i t h a n y a s p e c t o f th e r u l i n g a n d n o t p i e c e m e a l s o – a n d a s I s a y h e s h o u l d h a v e b e e n g i v e n a c o p y, h is o w n c o p y t o r e a d a t h is o w n ti m e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s I a p p r e c i a t e t h a t. L o n g b e fo r e to d a y s o I d o n ’t w a n t to a l lo w a n y q u e s t io n r e l a ti n g t o th e r u l i n g . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . T h a t m a y r e la t e t o a n y a d v e r s e fi n d i n g m a d e a g a i n s t h i m u n ti l h e h a s h a d – h e h a s r e a d th e w h o l e r u l in g . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. A n d i n te r m s o f w h e n h e m a y b e a s k e d t h e r e is , I t h i n k , n o r e a s o n w h y w e s h o u l d th e n n o w a d j o u r n f o r a s h o r t t i m e t o r e a d t h a t a n d w e c o m e b a c k . I t h i n k h e c a n b e g iv e n a f u l l c o p y, i f y o u Page 171 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 h a v e g o t n o o th e r q u e s t io n s , i f y o u ’v e g o t o th e r q u e s t io n s o u t s i d e o f t h e r u li n g y o u c a n a s k h i m a n d w e c a n fi n is h f o r th e d a y o t h e r w is e if a n d w h e n a n y b o d y i s g r a n te d le a v e to c r o s s - e x a m i n e h i m t h e n h e c a n c o m e b a c k a n d b e f o r e h e i s c r o s s - e x a m in e d h e c a n b e a s k e d q u e s t i o n s o n w h a te v e r y o u w a n t e d to a s k h i m . He can deal with any questions h a v i n g f u l ly r e a d t h e r u li n g , I th i n k th a t is h o w w e s h o u l d d e a l w i t h i t . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. J a y o u u n d e r s t a n d C o lo n e l N a id o o ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s I u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir. Ye s s o b e fo r e a n y b o d y w i ll b e a b le t o s a y, b u t s u c h a n d s u c h a n a d v e r s e fi n d i n g w a s m a d e a g a in s t y o u , h e m u s t h a v e h a d a c h a n c e t o r e a d th e w h o l e r u l i n g a n d b e r e a d y to d e a l w i th a n y q u e s t io n . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir. O k a y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: C h a ir I d o n ’t in t e n d to a s k q u e s ti o n d ir e c tly a b o u t t h e r u li n g . C o l o n e l N a i d o o I w a n t t o d e a l w i t h y o u w i t h w h a t it ’s b e e n li k e fo r y o u t o b e i n w i tn e s s p r o te c t io n b u t b e f o r e w e d o t h a t , I t h i n k t h a t t h e r e i s a n is s u e t h a t t h e C h a i r w o u ld li k e t o u n d e r s ta n d a n d in d e e d t h e p u b l ic w o u l d v e r y m u c h lik e t o u n d e r s t a n d a n d t h a t is , w h y 20 w h e n – a f t e r y o u h a d fir s t b e e n q u e s ti o n e d b y C o l o n e l R o e l o f s e o n t h e 1 8 t h , I t h i n k i t w a s , o f O c to b e r … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: W h y d i d y o u s a y th a t o n t h e 1 9 t h , d e s p i t e y o u r o w n in v o lv e m e n t in t h is w r o n g d o i n g d id y o u d e c id e t o te ll h i m e v e r y t h i n g t h a t y o u k n e w in c l u d i n g a b o u t y o u r o w n w r o n g d o i n g ? Page 172 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir, t h i s m i g h t t a k e a f e w m o m e n ts i f I m a y. CHAIRPERSON: J a t h a t ’s f in e . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : s tr a ig h t fo r w a r d a n s w e r. C h a ir when I t ’s not I w a s a p p o i n te d just a at Crime I n t e lli g e n c e i n i t ia ll y i n 2 0 0 2 o v e r t h e n e x t f e w y e a r s C h a ir I b e c a m e q u i te c l o s e t o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d o v e r t h e n e x t f u r t h e r f e w y e a r s I b e c a m e h is c l o s e c o n f id a n t , w e l l e s ta b l is h e d w it h in h i s i n n e r c ir c l e a n d t o a n e x t e n t i n v o lv e d i n t h e w e b o f c o r r u p t i o n t h a t h e h a d a lr e a d y 10 e s t a b li s h e d . C h a i r I s p o k e o f t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p w it h M r M a r i m u t h u a n d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s , h o w h e c a m e i n t o t h e p ic tu r e . C h a ir w h e n M r M a r i m u t h u o r r a t h e r w h e n G e n e r a l L a z a r u s e s t a b li s h e d a r e la t io n s h ip w i t h Mr M a r i m u t h u th e a b u s e a n d t h e e x tr a v a g a n c e r e g a r d in g t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t ju s t w e n t t o a n o t h e r l e v e l. C h a ir a ll o f t h e s e t h i n g s s t a r t e d to a ff e c t m e p e r s o n a l ly, k n o w i n g w h a t w a s g o i n g o n . I r e m e m b e r t w o m o n th s b e f o r e b e i n g p l a c e in w i tn e s s p r o t e c t io n , o n t w o o c c a s i o n s I c a m e h o m e a n d m y w i f e n o ti c e d t h a t I w a s n o t m y s e l f a n d s h e a s k e d m e w h a t w a s g o i n g o n . C h a i r w it h o u t g iv in g a n y d e ta il I s a i d t h e r e ’s s t u ff t h a t is g o in g o n a t w o r k w h ic h i s n o t r ig h t a n d I d o n ’ t k n o w 20 w h a t to d o … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: I’m sorry just repeat that sentence? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir I e x p l a i n e d t o m y w i f e – m y w i f e p ic k e d u p th a t I w a s n o t m y s e l f a n d w e h a d a d is c u s s io n , C h a ir w i t h o u t g iv in g a n y d e ta il to my w i f e a s t o w h a t e x a c tly w h a t is g o i n g o n a t w o r k , I to ld h e r t h a t th e r e a r e t h i n g s th a t a r e g o i n g o n t h a t Page 173 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 is n o t r i g h t a n d I d o n ’t k n o w w h a t t o d o a b o u t it . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir a t t h a t s ta g e , i f I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c tl y m y w if e t o ld m e t h a t I n e e d to s p e a k o u t o r I n e e d t o l e a v e t h a t u n it a n d g e t a tr a n s fe r. C h a ir lik e I s a i d I w a s w e ll e s t a b li s h e d w i th in G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ in n e r c ir c le t a k in g a tr a n s f e r w o u l d n o t b e a n o p ti o n f o r m e a t t h a t s t a g e , i t w o u ld a r o u s e s u s p ic i o n a s t o w h y I ’ m tr a n s f e r r i n g o u t o f th e u n it . S o a t t h a t s t a g e a tr a n s f e r w a s n o t a n o p ti o n f o r m e C h a ir a n d th e n th is c a m e a r o u n d w h e r e I w a s 10 in t e r v ie w e d b y t h e H a w k s o n t h e 1 8 t h . C h a ir l ik e I t e s t if i e d t o e a r li e r w h a t e v e r q u e s t io n s w e r e p u t t o m e o n t h e 1 8 t h I a n s w e r e d a l l q u e s ti o n s h o n e s tl y b u t I w a s h e s i t a n t s i m p ly b e c a u s e I c o u l d n o t tr u s t t h e m b e c a u s e a s I’v e t e s t if i e d to I ’v e i m p l ic a t e d n u m e r o u s p e o p l e , s e r i o u s c o r r u p ti o n s o r a ll e g a ti o n s o f c o r r u p t io n s o I d id n ’t k n o w i f I c o u ld tr u s t them. C h a ir o n th e 1 8 t h a f te r b e i n g i n te r v i e w e d b y t h e H a w k s [i n d is t in c t] a n d R o e lo f s e a n d C o l o n e l Vi lj o e n I h a d a n o t h e r d is c u s s i o n w i t h m y w i fe a n d e x p la i n e d t o h e r t h e e v e n t s o f t h e d a y a n d C h a ir it w a s a c t u a ll y m y w i fe w h o c o n v i n c e d m e – i t w a s my w i f e w h o c o n v i n c e d m e t o c o m e c l e a n C h a ir a n d o n t h e 1 9 t h o f O c t o b e r, o n m y o w n a c c o r d I 20 d is c l o s e d a l l t h e a l le g a ti o n s o f c r i m i n a l it y ta k i n g p l a c e w it h in C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e in c l u d i n g m y s e lf . C h a ir t h e r e w a s a v e r s i o n p u t f o r w a r d t h a t I o n ly d id t h is b e c a u s e I w a n t e d a s e c u r e d e a l f o r m y s e l f to a v o i d prosecution. C h a ir t h is is t o t a l ly u n tr u e , o n th e 1 9 t h I w e n t th e r e b y m y s e l f , I d i d n ’ t h a v e a n y l e g a l r e p r e s e n ta t iv e , I m a d e a d m is s i o n s in c r i m i n a t i n g m y s e l f w i t h t h e p r o s p e c t o f b e i n g a r r e s t e d my s e l f . Page 174 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : S o t h is is t o ta ll y u n tr u e C h a ir, in f a c t a f t e r g iv i n g a ll o f t h i s i n f o r m a ti o n t o C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e o n t h e 1 9 t h , h e w a s v e r y fr a n k a n d h e w a s v e r y h o n e s t w i th m e , h e s a id , y o u k n o w I c a n ’ t s a y th e r e ’s n o t h i n g g o i n g to h a p p e n t o y o u t h e r e ’s n o d e a l fo r y o u . C h a ir, h o w e v e r, h e s a i d h e w i ll s p e a k t o t h e p r o s e c u t o r a n d s e e w h a t h e c a n d o . C h a ir o n t h e 2 5 t h o f O c t o b e r 2 0 11 th is w a s m y fir s t, i f I c a n c a ll i t m y b l a n k e t a ff id a v i t w h ic h I d e p o s e d t o , to C o lo n e l Vi lj o e n . I n t h a t s ta t e m e n t o r a ffi d a v i t , I d id s a y th a t I w o u l d l ik e to b e 10 tr e a t e d a s a s e c t io n 2 0 4 w i tn e s s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir th a t p r o c e s s s t il l h a s t o u n f o ld i n t h e C o u r t s a n d a d e c is i o n h a s t o b e m a d e . S o th e n o t io n o r s u g g e s t i o n t h a t I o n ly c a m e fo r w a r d w i t h a ll o f th is to g e t a d e a l f o r m y s e l f to a v o i d p r o s e c u t i o n is to t a lly u n t r u e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: S o th e p o s i ti o n is t h a t y o u a p p r e c i a te t h a t y o u h a v e n o i m m u n i t y fr o m p r o s e c u ti o n a s th i n g s s t a n d a n d t h a t y o u m a y w e ll b e c h a r g e d b u t y o u m a y w e ll n o t b e c h a r g e d . Yo u a r e r e a d y t o fa c e a n y c o n s e q u e n c e s o f y o u r o w n a c ti o n s ? 20 C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : CHAIRPERSON: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. J a o k a y, y e s . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: C o l o n e l N a id o o is i t c o r r e c t t h o u g h w h e n y o u m a d e y o u r s t a te m e n t o n th e 2 5 t h o f O c t o b e r, y o u d id s a y y o u w a n te d to b e tr e a te d a s a S e c t i o n 2 0 4 w i t n e s s ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t . Page 175 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: A n d i n t h e s u b s e q u e n t a ffi d a v i t s t h a t y o u h a v e d e p o s e d t o , a s r e q u e s t e d b y th e H a w k s a r e t h o s e a ffi d a v it s g i v e n b y y o u o n t h e b a s is t h a t y o u w o u l d b e tr e a t e d a s a 2 0 4 w it n e s s ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : CHAIRPERSON: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. D o e s t h a t m e a n t h a t t h e y – th e H a w k s h a v e m a d e t h e d e c i s i o n t h a t fr o m t h e ir p a r t t h e y w il l t r e a t y o u a s s u c h a w i t n e s s ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Th a t is w h a t I’ m g iv e n t o u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s o k a y b u t b e f o r e t h a t d e c is i o n w a s t a k e n y o u h a d n o g u a r a n te e f o r a n y t h i n g ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : CHAIRPERSON: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. O k a y. ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: S o C o l o n e l N a id o o if I u n d e r s ta n d y o u c o r r e c t ly w h a t y o u a r e e m p h a s is i n g is t h a t w h e n y o u e s s e n t i a l ly c a m e c le a n o n t h e 1 9 t h o f O c to b e r a t t h a t s t a g e t h e r e w a s n o d e c is io n o ff e r e d t o y o u o r ta k e n i n te r ms o f w h i c h y o u w o u ld r e c e iv e i m m u n it y fr o m p r o s e c u t i o n y o u r s e lf ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: 20 A n d y o u w e r e m a k i n g t h e p o in t e a r l ie r t h a t y o u d i d n ’ t e v e n g o a n d g e t y o u r o w n l a w y e r t o a s s is t y o u a n d g u id e y o u a n d – s o t h a t y o u c o u l d h a v e s o m e le g a l p r o te c t io n . Yo u w e n t to m e e t w i t h t h e H a w k s o n y o u r o w n w i th o u t a la w y e r ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir, o v e r th e t w o d a y s o f t h e 1 8 t h a n d t h e 1 9 t h C h a ir, t h e r e w a s n o s u b p o e n a f o r m e t o p r e s e n t m y s e lf t o t h e H a w k s , I w e n t t h e r e w il li n g ly, i t w a s a Page 176 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 r e q u e s t fo r m e t o b e i n t e r v ie w e d . S o th e r e w a s n o o b l ig a ti o n o n my s e l f t o p r e s e n t m y s e lf . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I w e n t th e r e w il li n g l y C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : And on the 19th as I e x p l a i n e d h a v i n g m a d e t h e d e c i s i o n a n d s e t tl e d w it h in m y s e l f a lr e a d y t h e p r e v i o u s n i g h t th a t I w a s g o i n g t o d i s c l o s e a l l in f o r m a ti o n t h a t I w a s 10 p r i v y o r h a d p e r s o n a l k n o w le d g e o f r e g a r d i n g c r i m i n a l it y w i th i n C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e , I ’ d a lr e a d y m a d e t h a t d e c is i o n th e p r e v io u s n ig h t a n d s t il l p r e s e n t e d my s e l f o n t h e 1 9 t h w i th o u t a n y l e g a l r e p r e s e n ta t iv e , k n o w i n g w e ll t h a t I c o u l d h a v e w e ll b e a r r e s t e d m y s e l f , th a t is m y p o s i ti o n C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you, Colonel Naidoo could you please t e ll t h e C h a ir w h a t i t h a s b e e n lik e f o r y o u t o b e i n w i tn e s s p r o t e c ti o n ? C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir b e f o r e I g o t h e r e , i f I c a n ju s t s a y t h is a s w e l l . CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : My t e s ti m o n y h a s b e e n q u i te e x t e n s i v e I’ v e t o u c h e d o n n u m e r o u s i n c i d e n t s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I’ v e i m p l ic a te d n u m e r o u s p e o p l e , C h a ir i n s o f a r a s w h e r e I w a s p e r s o n a l ly i n v o lv e d a n d h a d p e r s o n a l k n o w le d g e , C h a ir I ’ m p r e p a r e d t o a v a i l m y s e l f f o r a p o l y g r a p h Page 177 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 t e s t a n d f o r t h e r e s u l ts o f t h a t t e s t b e p l a c e d o n r e c o r d b e fo r e t h i s Commission. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : C h a ir r e g a r d in g w it n e s s p r o t e c t io n I c a n n o t g o in t o m u c h d e t a i l b u t C h a ir i t h a s b e e n d i ff ic u l t . I t h a s b e e n e x tr e m e ly d i ff ic u l t . C H A I R P E R S O N : B o th t o y o u a n d y o u r fa m ily. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir n e x t – n e x t m o n t h w i ll b e e i g h t y e a r s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t I w i ll b e i n w i t n e s s p r o t e c t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I t h a s b e e n e x tr e m e ly d i ff ic u l t C h a i r e s p e c ia ll y t h e f ir s t fe w y e a r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : M y c h i ld r e n b a s ic a l ly grew up. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h e y h a v e s p e n t th e i r p r i m e y e a r s in w i tn e s s p r o t e c t io n . O u r s i t u a t io n is v e r y fl u id C h a ir. W e liv e o u r li v e s o n a m o n t h to m o n t h b a s is . W e c a n n o t m a k e p l a n s fu r t h e r than a month. S o I a m h o p in g C h a ir th a t m e c o m in g a n d t e s ti f y i n g b e f o r e t h i s c o m m i s s i o n i t w il l g iv e s o m e u r g e n c y t o t h e p r o c e s s e s t h a t a r e o u t s t a n d i n g b e i t t h e d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n o f d o c u m e n t s o r o t h e r Page 178 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 in f o r m a ti o n t h a t h a s n o t b e e n fo r t h c o m i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : S o I a m h o p i n g th a t s o m e t h i n g p o s it iv e c o m e s o u t o f m e t e s t i fy in g a t t h is c o m m i s s io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir l a s tl y i f I m a y ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : D u r in g m y ti m e a t C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e I m a d e d e c is io n s t h a t – t h a t I d e e p l y r e g r e t C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A n d I a m tr u l y s o r r y C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I a m s o r r y fo r m y a c ti o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A ID O O : A n d I h u m b ly a p o lo g i s e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : H e r e I a ls o w a n t t o th a n k 20 y o u fo r a ll o w i n g m e t o c o m e a n d s h a r e w h a t I k n o w. a p p r e c ia t io n t o y o u a n d th e c o m m i s s io n C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I th a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir I … Page 179 of 182 Extend my 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I h a v e n o fu r t h e r q u e s t io n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e n o f u r t h e r q u e s ti o n s . ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: No. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C o lo n e l N a i d o o . I h a v e n o id e a w h a t i t m u s t b e l ik e to b e i n w i t n e s s p r o t e c ti o n – i n a w i t n e s s p r o te c ti o n p r o g r a m . I h a v e n o i d e a w h a t i t m u s t b e li k e t o h a v e y o u r w h o l e f a m il y in a w i tn e s s p r o t e c ti o n p r o g r a m f o r o n e y e a r. I have no idea how it m u s t b e l ik e to h a v e y o u r w h o le f a m il y, y o u r w i f e a n d y o u r c h i l d r e n in a 10 w i t n e s s p r o t e c ti o n p r o g r a m f o r s e v e n o r e i g h t y e a r s . I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t w h e n y o u a r e i n a w i t n e s s p r o t e c t io n p r o g r a m y o u r fr e e d o m o f m o v e m e n t is v e r y li m i t e d a n d y o u li v e a l i f e t h a t is v e r y u n lik e th e l i fe y o u w o u l d h a v e l iv e d b e fo r e g o i n g i n to s u c h a p r o g r a m . r e a l ly b e q u i t e d i ffi c u l t . So it must I m u s t t h a n k y o u C o lo n e l N a i d o o f o r c o m i n g f o r w a r d t o g iv e e v i d e n c e to th e c o m m is s i o n . Persons who are i m p l ic a t e d b y y o u in y o u r e v i d e n c e w i ll h a v e o p p o r t u n i ti e s t o a p p ly f o r L e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e y o u a n d w i ll h a v e o p p o r t u n i ti e s t o a p p ly t o g iv e e v i d e n c e t h e m s e l v e s . I d o n o t k n o w w h a t c o n c l u s i o n s I w i ll r e a c h l a t e r in t h e w o r k o f th e c o m m i s s i o n w h e n I l o o k a t y o u r e v i d e n c e a s w e l l a s 20 t h e e v id e n c e o f th o s e w h o a r e i m p lic a t e d i n y o u r e v i d e n c e . But I do t h i n k th a t i t w a s i m p o r ta n t t h a t i f y o u b e li e v e d t h a t y o u h a d b e e n p a r t y t o v a r i o u s a c t s o f c r i m in a li ty a n d c o r r u p t i o n i n v o lv i n g t a x p a y e r s m o n e y t h a t y o u s p o k e t o t h e H a w k s a n d p l a c e d b e fo r e t h e m w h a t y o u b e l i e v e d were th e fa c t s and in th a t way you may have h e lp e d in us u n d e r s t a n d in g w h a t m a y h a v e b e e n g o in g o n i n C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e a n d Page 180 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 it m a y b e t h a t a ll o f t h is w i ll a ls o h e l p i n m e a s u r e s b e i n g t a k e n to a v o i d c r i m i n a li ty h a p p e n in g w i th i n C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e p a r t ic u l a r ly w i th r e g a r d t o t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t a n d s o c i e t y d o e s n e e d p e o p le w h o w il l g iv e c o o p e r a t io n to law enforcement a g e n c ie s when there are s u s p i c i o n s o f c r i m in a li ty p a r ti c u la r ly w i th c o r r u p ti o n w h ic h h a s r e a c h e d v e r y u n a c c e p ta b le l e v e l s i n o u r c o u n t r y. A n d w it h o u t s o m e o f th e p e o p l e i n s o c ie t y m a k i n g d e c is io n s to te ll t h e a u t h o r i ti e s a b o u t w r o n g s that may be happening not much can be done. So I just want you to k n o w th a t I t h i n k I d o h a v e a n a p p r e c i a ti o n t h a t w h a t y o u a n d y o u r 10 f a m ily m u s t h a v e g o n e t h r o u g h o v e r th e p a s t s e v e n / e i g h t y e a r s c o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n e a s y a n d m u s t h a v e b e e n d i ffi c u l t . And I want you to k n o w a n d y o u r f a m i ly t o k n o w th a t I r e a l ly a p p r e c i a t e a n d t h e c o m m i s s io n a p p r e c ia t e s t h e s a c r i fic e s t h a t y o u m a y h a v e d o n e i n o r d e r t o t r y a n d s h a r e w i t h th e n a t io n w h a t y o u b e li e v e a r e th e f a c ts o f w h a t h a p p e n e d . As I s a y o t h e r p e o p l e w il l c o m e fo r w a r d a n d w il l p u t w h a t t h e y b e li e v e a r e t h e f a c ts a n d in d u e c o u r s e I w i ll m a k e fi n d i n g s b u t I a p p r e c ia t e v e r y m u c h t h a t y o u m a d e y o u r s e l f a v a il a b l e a n d w e p r o b a b l y w i ll a s k y o u t o c o m e b a c k b e c a u s e y o u a ls o m ig h t n e e d t o d e a l w it h c e r t a i n a s p e c t s r e la t in g t o t h e r u li n g . B u t t h e r e is s o m e f u r th e r 20 in v e s t i g a t io n t h a t n e e d s to b e c o n d u c t e d i n r e g a r d t o s o m e o f t h e a s p e c ts o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t . T h o s e w h e r e y o u a l s o f e l t t h a t m o r e in v e s t i g a t io n n e e d e d to b e d o n e b e f o r e y o u c o u ld d e a l w i th th e m because you were not sure of the facts in regard to those – so – but t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h fo r c o m i n g to s h a r e w i t h t h e c o m m i s s io n a n d w i t h t h e n a t io n w h a t y o u k n o w in t e r m s o f w h a t h a s b e e n h a p p e n i n g o r w h a t Page 181 of 182 02 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 175 h a p p e n e d i n C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e . I h a v e a l r e a d y a s k e d th e H e a d o f t h e le g a l t e a m o f th e c o m m i s s i o n to b e i n t o u c h w i t h r e le v a n t a u th o r i ti e s w i t h a v i e w t o g e tt i n g fi n a l it y o n t h e i s s u e o f t h e d e c l a s s i fic a ti o n o f d o c u m e n ts t h a t m a y b e i m p o r t a n t f o r s o m e o f th e a ll e g a ti o n s t h a t y o u h a v e d e a l t w it h a n d th a t C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e d e a lt w i t h a s w e l l . B u t th a n k you very much Colonel Naidoo we appreciate your having come forward. C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s . We are therefore going to adjourn the p r o c e e d i n g s fo r t h e d a y a n d th e l e g a l t e a m w il l b e i n t o u c h w i t h y o u C o l o n e l N a i d o o i n r e g a r d t o t h e o t h e r m a t te r s a n d a l s o in d u e c o u r s e w h e n y o u m a y h a v e t o c o m e b a c k . To m o r r o w th e c o m m i s s io n is s c h e d u l e d t o h e a r th e r e m a i n in g e v i d e n c e o f M r T h a b e th e th e fo r m e r H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t o f th e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e i n t h e Fr e e S t a t e . T h a t is s c h e d u l e d f o r t o m o r r o w a n d Fr i d a y b e c a u s e h e d i d n o t f i n is h h is evidence. B u t w e w il l n o t b e a b le to s t a r t i n t h e m o r n i n g b e c a u s e t o m o r r o w t h e j u d i c i a r y w i ll b e – w i ll b e a c c o u n ti n g t o t h e n a t io n w i th r e g a r d t o i t s a c tiv i ti e s a n d t h a t w il l b e h a p p e n i n g a t t h e C o n s t it u ti o n a l C o u r t . T h e C h i e f J u s t ic e w il l b e d o i n g t h a t a n d I n e e d t o b e t h e r e f o r 20 the morning. S o w e w il l s t a r t h e r e t o m o r r o w a t t w o to t h e n h e a r t h e f u r th e r e v i d e n c e o f M r T h a b e t h e . I t h o u g h t I m u s t m e n ti o n t h a t s o t h a t t h o s e w h o m i g h t n e e d to b e h e r e t h e y k n o w th a t w e w i ll o n l y s t a r t a t t w o . W e w i ll th e n a d jo u r n f o r t o d a y. W e a d j o u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 3 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9 Page 182 of 182