C O M MI S SI O N O F I N Q U I RY I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
C I T Y O F J O H A N N ES B U R G O L D C O U N C I L C H A M B E R
1 5 8 C I VI C B O U L EVA R D , B R A A M FO N T EI N

0 1 J U LY 2 0 2 0

D AY 2 2 8

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CERTIFICATE OF VERACITY
I, the undersigned, hereby certify that, in as far as it is audible, the aforegoing is a
VERBATIM transcription from the soundtrack of proceedings, as was ordered to be
transcribed by Gauteng Transcribers and which had been recorded by the client

COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO STATE CAPTURE
HELD AT
CITY OF JOHANNESBURG OLD COUNCIL CHAMBER
158 CIVIC BOULEVARD, BRAAMFONTEIN

DATE OF HEARING:

01 JULY 2020

TRANSCRIBERS:

B KLINE; Y KLIEM; V FAASEN; D STANIFORTH

Page 2 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
P R O C E E D I N G S R E S U M E O N 1 J U LY 2 0 2 0
CHAIRPERSON:

Good

morning

Mr

Soni,

good

morning

e v e r y b o d y. A r e w e r e a d y ?
A D V S O N I S C : We a r e re a d y. D C J I m u st a p o l o g i s e a n d s o
d o e s t h e w i t n e s s M r B o t e s h e ca m e f ro m P r e t o ri a b u t h e j u st
l o st h i s w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V S O N I S C : A n d h e a p o l o g i s e s m o st p r o f u s e l y.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Okay no, no that is fine.

I thought that

m a y b e t h e c o m m i s si o n d i d n o t g i v e h i m t h e c o r re ct a d d r e s s
b e ca u s e I h e a rd t h a t h e s e e m s t o h a v e g o n e t o t h e o l d
venue.
ADV SONI SC: That is what seems to have happened.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

Ye s.

O k a y, n o t h a t i s f i n e .

We a r e

h a p p y t h a t h e i s h e r e . T h a n k y o u M r B o t e s. Ye s M r S o n i .
ADV SONI SC: Mr Soni before I…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V S O N I S C : M r C h a i r p e r s o n b e f o r e w e st a rt m a y I p u t M r
B o t e s’ e vi d e n ce i n c o n t e xt a n d t h e n w e c a n s w e a r h i m i n so
20

t h a t w e k n o w t h a t t h e p u r p o s e o f h i s e vi d e n c e i s a n d i t c a n
b e d i r e ct e d a t t h o s e i s s u e s.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o y o u c a n d o i t b u t m a y b e l e t u s st a rt

w i t h h i m b e i n g s w o r n i n s o t h e n y o u c a n p u t h i s e vi d e n ce i n
c o n t e xt .
A D V S O N I S C : A s y o u p l e a s e C h a i rp e r s o n .
Page 3 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:

And then we – you – we begin ja.

Thank

you.
R E G I S T R A R : P l e a s e st a t e y o u r f u l l n a m e s f o r t h e r e c o r d .
A D V B O T E S S C : F r a n c o i s We i d e m a n B o t e s.
REGISTRAR:

Do

yo u

h a ve

any

o b j e ct i o n

taking

the

p r e s c ri b e d o a t h ?
ADV BOTES SC: No I do not.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u co n si d e r t h e o a t h t o b e b i n d i n g o n

y o u r c o n s ci e n ce ?
10

A D V B O T E S S C : Ye s I d o .
REGISTRAR:

D o yo u s w e a r t h a t t h e e vi d e n c e y o u w i l l g i v e

w i l l b e t h e t ru t h ; t h e w h o l e t r u t h a n d n o t h i n g e l s e b u t t h e
t ru t h i f so p l e a s e ra i se yo u r ri g h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e
God.
A D V B O T E S S C : Ye s I d o , s o h e l p m e G o d .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h Mr B o t e s.

a g a i n t h a n k y o u f o r c o m i n g t o g i v e e vi d e n c e .

O n ce

The file that I

h a ve g o t h e r e h a s i t g o t h i s a ff i d a vi t ?
ADV SONI SC:
20

I t i s ri g h t – i t i s t h e l a st o n e C h a i r p e r s o n i n

Bundle G.
C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l I h a v e g o t B u n d l e H . I h a v e n o w b e e n
given Bundle G.

I s B u n d l e G t h e c o r r e ct o n e ?

been given Bundle G I had Bundle H.
A D V S O N I S C : O h I a m s o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. J a o ka y.
Page 4 of 253

I have now

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
A D V S O N I S C : M r B o t e s’ a ff i d a vi t s a p p e a r a t – a s S S 1 7 a n d
a t – t h e y st a rt f ro m p a g e 1 C h a i r p e r so n .
CHAIRPERSON: From page?
ADV SONI SC:

So it is a separate document.

Chairperson

t h e w a y t h i s f i l e h a s b e e n p r e p a re d i s b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e
s h o rt w i t n e s s e s w h i c h s h o rt a ff i d a vi t s, t h e y d e ci d e d t o p u t
e v e r yt h i n g i n t o o n e f i l e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SONI SC:
10

I d o n o t k n o w i f t h e y h a v e p u t d i vi d e r s i n t o

file Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l I a m n o t su re w h a t t h a t m e a n s.

Are

you – do you mean that the files have not been paginated in
the

way

they

–

they

are

supposed

to

be

paginated

s e q u e n t i a l l y f ro m p a g e 1 u p t o t h e l a st p a g e ?
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. D C J p a rt o f t h e p r o b l e m w a s a n d I w a s
n o t i n v o l v e d i n i t w a s t h a t w h a t w e w o u l d h a v e i s a p e r s o n ’s
a ff i d a vi t st a rt i n g a t p a g e 1 5 o r i n t h i s c a s e i t w o u l d b e 1 0 0
and something and it was thought that it would be better to
h a ve t h e m st a rt w i t h p a g e 1 o f t h e a ff i d a vi t .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, no remember we talked it was it on

M o n d a y.
A D V S O N I S C : I k n o w i t i s C h a i r p e r so n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. B e c a u se w e j u st n e e d t o co n si st e n t .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

It helps when I pick up a file to know what
Page 5 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
I a m e x p e ct i n g .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

I f I a m l o o ki n g f o r p a g e 5 0 o r 2 5 0 I m u st

n o t f i n d t h a t t h e re a r e t w o 2 5 0 ’s.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

I f I a m l o o ki n g f o r p a g e 2 0 I m u st n o t f i n d

t h a t t h e re a r e t h r e e p a g e 2 0 ’s y o u k n o w i n t h e b u n d l e .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i t i s a si m p l e t h i n g i t h a s b e e n d o n e a l l
10

along.

I t i s – w i l l yo u j u st p r e v a i l o n t h o s e w h o d o t h i s

b e ca u s e i n t h e e n d …
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

It

is

the

e vi d e n ce

leader

that

takes

re s p o n si b i l i t y f o r t h i s. S o w h e n t h e y d o i t j u st c h e c k t h a t t h e y
h a ve d o n e i t p r o p e r l y.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

We d o n o t h a v e a c h o i c e n o w b e c a u s e M r

B o t e s i s h e r e w e h a ve t o c o n t i n u e .
A D V S O N I S C : H e i s h e r e y e s.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t i s n o t s a t i sf a ct o r y.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

We n o w n e e d t o b e a b l e t o s a y o n a l l t h e

b u n d l e s t h e p a g i n a t i o n i s f r o m p a g e 1 u p t o w h a t e v e r.
ADV SONI SC: No sure.
CHAIRPERSON:

E v e n i f t h e r e a r e d i ff e r e n t st a t e m e n t s
Page 6 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
i n si d e .

I f t h e y a r e i n t h e sa m e b u n d l e t h e p a g i n a t i o n co v e r s

e v e r yt h i n g se q u e n t i a l l y.
A D V S O N I S C : Yo u w a n t i t f ro m p a g e 1 t o …
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s, ye s.

Okay so how do I get to Mr

B o t e s a ff i d a vi t o n t h i s b u n d l e ?
ADV SONI SC: It is marked Exhibit SS17.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a l ri g h t .
A D V S O N I S C : I a g a i n a p o l o g i se t o y o u C h a i r p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y a l ri g h t . T h e y m u st j u st f i x t h e o n e
10

w e d i s c u s se d – w a s i t M o n d a y.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f t h e y h a v e n o t f i x e d i t a n d t h e n t h e y m u st
s o rt t h i s o n e o u t a f t e r w a r d s.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SONI SC:

D C J b e f o re I l e a d t h e e vi d e n c e o f t h e

w i t n e s s b e c a u s e p e rh a p s, I s h o u l d p l a c e o n r e c o r d t h e
b a c kg r o u n d a g a i n st w h i c h M r B o t e s i s b e i n g c a l l e d b e ca u s e
the matters that are contained in the documents before you
20

are much wider than what the commission is dealing with.
B u t t h e r e i s a s i g n i f i c a n t p a rt o f M r B o t e s ’ a ff i d a vi t a n d
st a t e m e n t t o t h e P r e t o ri a B a r C o u n s e l t h a t c o n t a i n s m a t t e r s
t h a t a r e o f i n t e r e s t t o t h e c o m m i s si o n . B u t I w i l l j u st g i v e t h e
b a c kg r o u n d M r C h a i rp e r s o n .
Yo u

will

r e ca l l

Chairperson
Page 7 of 253

that

Ms

Ngoye

gave

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
e vi d e n c e t h a t i n re g a r d t o t h e S i y a y a m a t t e r s t h e r e – t h e
m a t t e r s h a d b e e n i n c o u rt a n d t h e y h a d b e e n r e f e r r e d t o
arbitration.
T h e r e w e r e f i ve m a t t e r s t h a t h a d b e e n re f e rr e d t o
arbitration. And the arbitrations we are going go on and then
– a n d t h i s n o w i s t h e p e r s p e ct i v e f ro m t h e P R A S A L e g a l –
the internal legal team.

And they – they were told that the

Chair – the newly appointed Chairperson Ms Makhubele now
Judge Makhubele was going to be dealing with the matter
10

a n d y o u w i l l r e ca l l t h a t t h e y s a i d t h a t w h e n t h e y c o n t a ct e d
P R A S A’s a t t o r n e y s P R A S A’s a t t o r n e y s s a i d t o t h e m P R A S A’s
a t t o r n e y s h a d b e e n i n st r u ct e d n o t t o c o m m u n i ca t e w i t h t h e
internal legal team.
Then

they

found

out

that

the

matters

had

been

s e t t l e d a n d t h a t t h e r e w a s g o i n g t o b e a n a p p l i ca t i o n t o c o u rt
t o m a k e t h e a r b i t ra t i o n a w a r d s a n d o r d e r s o f c o u rt .

When

t h e y f o u n d o u t a b o u t t h a t t h e y t h e n a p p r o a c h e d t h e i r f i rm o f
a t t o r n e y s d i ff e r e n t f ro m t h e o n e s t h a t h a d i n i t i a t e d t h e
s e t t l e m e n t o r h a d co n cl u d e d t h e s e t t l e m e n t t o h a v e t h o s e
20

o r d e r s r e s ci n d e d . E v e n t u a l l y i t w a s re s c i n d e d .
S o t h a t i s t h e p e r sp e ct i v e f r o m t h e P R A S A i n t e r n a l
legal team.

We a r e n o w g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h t h e p e r s p e ct i v e

o f co m m u n i c a t i o n s b e t w e e n M s M a k h u b e l e a n d t h e l a w y e r s
f o r t h e l i q u i d a t o r s i n t h e m a t t e r.
the

liquidators

in

the

matter

M r B o t e s w a s c o u n se l f o r
and

Page 8 of 253

at

issue

was

a

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
c o m m u n i c a t i o n t h a t M s M a k h u b e l e h a d m a d e t o h i m sa y i n g
t h a t t h e a t t o r n e y s w h o w e re a p p l yi n g f o r t h e r e s ci s si o n
a p p l i ca t i o n h a d n o a u t h o ri t y t o d o s o .
At

issue

again

to

put

Mr

B o t e s’

e vi d e n ce

in

p e r s p e ct i v e i s t h a t w h e n t h i s a p p l i c a t i o n w a s m a d e M r B o t e s
w a s s u rp ri s e d h a vi n g re g a r d t o t h e f a ct t h a t i n a p r e vi o u s
c o m m u n i c a t i o n J u d g e M a k h u b e l e h a d sa i d t o h i m t h e m a t t e r s
a r e s e t t l e d a n d t h e m a t t e r s i n f a ct w e re s e t t l e d .

So he

asked her by way of a Whatsapp message:
10

“A re y o u b ri n g i n g t h e a p p l i c a t i o n ? ”
And it is that message that she sent to him to say
t h o se l a w ye r s h a v e n o a u t h o ri t y t h a t i s i n i s s u e i n t h e se
p r o c e e d i n g s b e c a u s e w h a t i t d i d w a s t h e r e w a s m a s s i ve
p u b l i ci t y a r o u n d t h e i s s u e a t t h a t t i m e a n d Ju d g e M a k h u b e l e
t h e n l a i d a co m p l a i n t a g a i n st M r B o t e s f o r r e v e a l i n g i n c o u rt
and through his attorneys a communication she had sent to
him.

S o t h e r e i s n o d i sp u t e a b o u t t h e co m m u n i c a t i o n a s I

u n d e r st a n d i t .
T h e r e i s a d i s p u t e a b o u t w h e t h e r M r B o t e s sh o u l d
20

h a ve r e v e a l e d i t a t a l l .

I n M r B o t e s ’ re s p o n s e t o t h e

complaint laid by Ms Makhubele to the Bar Counsel he
re v e a l e d

how

the

communications

on

this

issue

st a rt e d

between him and Ms Makhubele and it is for that reason that
w e a r e g o i n g t o c a l l – w e a re c a l l i n g Mr B o t e s.

So it is a

v e r y n a r r o w i s s u e a s f a r a s t h e c o m m i s si o n g o e s a s b e t w e e n
Page 9 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
Mr Botes and Ms Makhubele there are other issues but with
re s p e ct C h a i r p e r s o n t h e y d o n o t c o n c e r n t h e c o m m i s si o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

No that is fine.

I t h i n k t h a t i t i s i m p o rt a n t

a l s o t o m e n t i o n o t h e r f e a t u re s t h a t y o u m i g h t n o t h a ve
m e n t i o n e d t h a t m a k e t h e c o m m i s si o n t o b e i n t e r e st e d i n t h e
i n t e r a ct i o n s b e t w e e n t h e t h e n C h a i rp e r s o n o f t h e P R A S A
B o a rd a n d M r B o t e s.

Namely that PRASA is one of those

S O E ’s i n r e s p e ct o f w h i ch f o r m a n y y e a r s t h e y h a v e b e e n i n
the
10

public

domain

all

ki n d s

of

c o r r u p t i o n a n d m a l a d m i n i st r a t i o n .

allegations

of

s e ri o u s

And except for what we

heard from Mr Popo Molefe who was Chairperson of the
B o a rd o f P R A S A a t a c e rt a i n st a g e e x c e p t f o r t h e a t t e m p t s
t h a t h i s B o a rd t ri e d t o d o i t a p p e a r s t h a t n o t m u c h h a s b e e n
d o n e b y a n y b o d y t o d e a l w i t h t h o s e a l l e g a t i o n s o f c o r ru p t i o n
at PRASA.
A n d t h e f o r m e r C h a i r p e r so n o f t h e B o a r d n o w J u d g e
Makhubele her assumption of duty and her appointment to –
as

C h a i rp e r s o n

of

the

Board

also

happened

under

ci r c u m st a n c e s t h a t a r e q u i t e u n u s u a l . S h e a p p e a r s t o h a v e
20

b e e n a p p o i n t e d s o m e t i m e i n O ct o b e r I d o n o t kn o w i f i t w a s
t h e 1 9 O ct o b e r.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s i t w a s t h e 1 9 t h .
CHAIRPERSON:

2017.

P ri o r

to

that

she

had

been

n o m i n a t e d f o r a p p o i n t m e n t a s a Ju d g e o f t h e H i g h C o u rt a n d
I t h i n k e a r l y i n O c t o b e r I d o n o t k n o w i f i t w a s t h e 2 O ct o b e r,
Page 10 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
s h e h a d b e e n i n t e r vi e w e d b y t h e JS C f o r t h e p o si t i o n o f – o f
a Judge.

N o w – s o t h e r e a re q u e st i o n s a b o u t w h y s h e

allowed herself to be appointed when she would have known
e i t h e r t h a t sh e w a s a b o u t t o b e a p p o i n t e d t o – a s a J u d g e o r
that there was a very good chance she would be appointed
as Judge.
I mean I am one of those people who know a lot
about

what

happens

in

the

JS C

because

I

have

been

i n t e r vi e w e d p r o b a b l y a b o u t si x t i m e s o v e r t h e p a st 2 3 y e a r s.
10

Ve r y u – I m e a n v e r y o f t e n w h e n y o u h a v e b e e n i n t e r vi e w e d
b y t h e JS C y o u g e t t o l d e i t h e r b y t h e s a m e d a y o r w i t h i n t h e
n e xt d a y o r t w o w h e t h e r t h e JS C w i l l a d vi s e t h e P re s i d e n t t o
a p p o i n t y o u . A n d t h e r o l e o f t h e J S C a n d t h e P r e si d e n t a l s o
i s su c h t h a t t h e P r e si d e n t – t h e g e n e r a l vi e w i s t h a t t h e
P r e si d e n t i s b o u n d t o g o a l o n g w i t h t h e a d vi c e o f t h e JS C .
B u t e v e n i f i t w a s s a i d w h a t t h e JS C d o e s a s st r o n g
re c o m m e n d a t i o n o v e r t h e p a st 2 0 o r w h a t e v e r y e a r s I t h i n k i t
w o u l d b e d i ff i c u l t t o f i n d a n y ca s e w h e r e t h e J S C a d vi s e d t h e
P r e si d e n t t o a p p o i n t a p e r s o n a s a Ju d g e a n d t h e P re s i d e n t

20

did not appoint.
S o t h e r e a re q u e st i o n s a b o u t w h y w o u l d sh e h a v e
accepted appointment as Chairperson of the Board when she
w o u l d h a ve k n o w n t h a t i n a l l p r o b a b i l i t y b e g i n n i n g o f t h e
y e a r 2 0 1 8 , s h e w o u l d b e e x p e ct e d t o a s su m e d u t y.
S o t h e r e a r e t h o s e q u e st i o n s a n d t h e n o f c o u r se p a r t
Page 11 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
o f t h e e vi d e n ce o f M s N g o y e i f I re c a l l c o rr e ct l y w a s t h a t
a f t e r s h e h a d a r ri v e d a s C h a i rp e r s o n o f – s h e h a d a rri v e d a t
PRASA

as

C h a i rp e r s o n

of

the

B o a rd

her

i n t e r e st

for

purposes of settlement was on Siyaya matters even though
a c c o r d i n g t o M s N g o ye t h e r e w e r e a l o t o f o t h e r m a t t e r s w i t h
e v e n l a r g e r a m o u n t s i n vo l v e d .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e o n l y s h o w e d i n t e r e st i n t h a t o n e . S o i t
i s a g a i n st t h a t b a c k g r o u n d t h a t t h e c o m m i s si o n s w a n t s t o
10

s e e w h a t r o l e sh e m a y h a v e p l a ye d a n d t h e n t h e e x c h a n g e s
t h a t s h e m i g h t h a v e h a d w i t h Mr B o t e s. Yo u kn o w t h a t i s t h e
c o n t e xt .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o I t h o u g h t I m u st j u st m e n t i o n b e ca u s e

a l s o I t h i n k i t i m p o rt a n t t h e p u b l i c s h o u l d j u st h a v e a s g o o d
b a c kg r o u n d a s p o s si b l e .
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s.

M a y I i n f a i rn e s s t o M s M a k h u b e l e

Chairperson say that she has asked to consult with the
c o m m i s si o n ?
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S O N I S C : S o t h a t s h e co u l d a n s w e r t h o s e ve r y i s s u e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s.
ADV SONI SC:

O h w e l l t h a t i s w h a t s h e sa i d t o m e i n a

t e l e p h o n e co n v e r s a t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
Page 12 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
A D V S O N I S C : L a st S a t u r d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s.
ADV SONI SC: So – but Chairperson those are matters that
w i l l o b vi o u sl y h a v e t o b e ra i s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V S O N I S C : W i t h h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s.
ADV SONI SC:
b a c kg r o u n d
10

B u t – b u t w e w o u l d r e s p e ct t h a t i s t h e f u l l

a g a i n st

which

Mr

B o t e s’

e vi d e n c e

m u st

be

a s s e s se d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

No, no she definitely has recently

i n d i c a t e d t h a t s h e w i l l c o - o p e r a t e a n d s h e m a k e s h e r se l f
a v a i l a b l e t o b e i n t e r v i e w e d b y t h e c o m m i s si o n ’s l e g a l t e a m .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON: And the legal team has been in touch with
h e r.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:
heard.
20

a n yt h i n g

A n d c e rt a i n l y, h e r si d e o f t h e st o r y w i l l b e

I do not know whether Mr Soni you want to say
about

a

re q u e st

for

i n v e st i g a t i o n s

–

f o r e n si c

i n v e st i g a t i o n s ?
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s.

M r C h a i r p e r s o n a s I u n d e r st o o d w h a t

M s M a k h u b e l e s a i d i s t h a t b e c a u s e M r B o t e s’ e vi d e n ce –
w e l l co m m u n i c a t i o n t o t h e c o m m i s si o n w a s b a s e d o n s o m e
Whatsapp messages between him and Ms Makhubele his
Page 13 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
p h o n e h a d b e e n su b j e ct e d t o a f o r e n si c a n a l y si s b y t h e
c o m m i s si o n a n d s h e w a n t e d t h e s a m e i n r e s p e ct o f h e r
phone.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
ADV SONI SC:

We i n d i c a t e d t h a t w e w o u l d h a ve a p e r s o n

f ro m t h e c o m m i s si o n ’s f o r e n si c t e a m a t t h e i n t e r vi e w – a t t h e
c o n su l t a t i o n w i t h h e r a n d i f i t w a s n e c e s s a r y t h e n t h o s e
i n v e st i g a t i o n s o r t h e i n q u i ri e s w o u l d b e m a d e .

But she

would have to indicate what is it that is in dispute between
10

h e r a n d M r B o t e s.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. She is aware of course and she
n o t e t h a t M r B o t e s i s g o i n g t o g i v e e vi d e n c e t h i s m o r n i n g ?
ADV BOTES SC:

I told her on Saturday and I called her

a g a i n l a st n i g h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V S O N I S C : C h a i r a f t e r w e h a d f i n i s h e d C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V S O N I S C : S o I d i d t e l l h e r t h a t – a n d sh e a s k e d i f h e r –
Mr
20

B o t e s’

evidence

could

be

deferred

until

she

gave

e vi d e n c e a n d I p o i n t e d o u t t o h e r t h a t t h a t i s n o t h o w t h e
c o m m i s si o n o p e ra t e s.
happened
c o m m i s si o n

that

when

gives

I t i s i n f a ct v e r y s e l d o m i f i t h a s e v e r
a

person

e vi d e n c e

who

that

the

is

ca l l e d

person

so

by

the

called

implicated person is immediately called. But I did indicate to
h e r t h a t M r B o t e s w i l l b e c a l l e d t o d a y.
Page 14 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay no that is fine.

I am sure that she

w i l l f e e l f re e t o p u r s u e i f s h e b e l i e ve s s h e n e e d s t h a t
f o r e n si c i n v e st i g a t i o n t o d o s o .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M y u n d e r st a n d i n g o f w h a t s h e r e a l l y w a n t s
t o b e r e ve a l e d b y t h e f o re n si c i n v e st i g a t i o n b e c a u s e I h a v e
s e e n t h e c o rr e s p o n d e n c e .
deposed to.

I h a v e re a d a n a ff i d a vi t s h e h a s

M y p r i m a f a ci e v i e w i s t h a t t h e i s s u e t h a t s h e

wants to be revealed is an issue that does not appear to me
10

t o b e r e l e v a n t t o t h e i s s u e s t h a t t h e c o m m i s si o n i s l o o ki n g
at.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t t h a t i s n o t h e r f i n a l d e ci si o n .

She

should feel free to persuade me that it is relevant and then if
I am persuaded then we can look at that.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

And she did mention about – I think she

d i d m e n t i o n s o m e t h i n g a b o u t w i s h i n g t o c ro s s - e x a m i n e M r
B o t e s b u t yo u k n o w yo u – e v e r y o n e a p p l i e d f o r L e a ve t o
20

C r o s s- e x a m i n e .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e r e a r e c e rt a i n r e q u i re m e n t s t h a t

need to be met.

O n e o f w h i ch o b vi o u sl y w i l l b e w h e t h e r t h e

c ro s s - e x a m i n a t i o n w i l l b e o n i s s u e s t h a t a r e r e l e v a n t t o w h a t
t h e c o m m i s si o n i s l o o ki n g a t o r n o t .
Page 15 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

So she can bring that application or move

that application in due course if leave is granted, I have no
doubt Mr Botes would make himself available after that.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay I think we – I think we have put

e v e r yt h i n g o n re c o r d p r o p e rl y b u t i f t h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g , I
h a ve l e f t o u t y o u c a n i n d i c a t e .
ADV SONI SC:
10

N o C h a i r p e r s o n j u st – j u st t o p o i n t o u t t h a t

we will point all of these matters out when we consult with
h e r n e xt .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Ye s. O k a y t h a n k y o u .
ADV SONI SC:
submitted

to

M r B o t e s j u st i f I ca n a s k y o u – y o u h a v e
the

c o m m i s si o n

two

a ff i d a vi t s

and

your

re s p o n s e t o J u d g e M a k h u b e l e ’s c o m p l a i n t a g a i n st y o u t o t h e
B a r C o u n s e l – t o t h e P r e t o ri a B a r C o u n s e l , w o u l d t h a t b e
c o r r e ct M r B o t e s ?
A D V B O T E S S C : T h a n k yo u v e r y m u c h C h a i r p e r s o n . T h a n k
you
20

very

c o m m i s si o n

much
with

Advocate
one

Soni.

a ff i d a vi t

that

Ye s
is

I

p r o vi d e d

the

the

a ff i d a vi t

that

appears on Annexure SS17 on page 57 58, 59 and at the top
o f p a g e 6 0 t h a t i s m y si g n a t u r e w h i c h a p p e a r s o n t h a t
a ff i d a vi t .
T h a t i s t h e s o ca l l e d – I s e e i t i s m a r k e d t h e s e c o n d
a ff i d a vi t a n d t h e r e p o rt t h a t – t h e s e c o n d o r t h e f i r st a ff i d a vi t
Page 16 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
i s t h e a ff i d a vi t t h a t t h e c o m m i s si o n – M r C o m m i s si o n e r w i l l
f i n d S S 1 7 t h a t i s t h e f i r st p a g e , p a g e 3 0 3 u p u n t i l 0 6 a n d
t h a t i s m y si g n a t u re w h i c h a p p e a r s ri g h t o n t h e m i d d l e o f t h e
p a g e a n d t h e w h o l e p u r p o s e o f t h e s e a ff i d a vi t s w e r e t o
introduce the response to the complaint that was lodged by
the

Honourable

J u st i c e

Makhubele

a g a i n st m e

and that

re s p o n s e C h a i r p e r so n w i l l f i n d f r o m F W B 0 8 ri g h t u n t i l t h e
e n d a n d t h a t w i l l b e p a g e 2 4 a n d ri g h t a t t h e e n d o f t h e
d o cu m e n t I h a v e s i g n e d i t o n t h e 1 7 M a y 2 0 1 9 .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O ka y t h a n k y o u .

Mr Soni I thought you

s h o u l d st a rt b y g e t t i n g M r B o t e s t o t e l l u s w h o h e i s ?
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

H e i s a n a d v o c a t e a n d w h i c h b a r, f o r h o w

l o n g h e h a s b e e n i n p r a ct i c e t h o s e p r e l i m i n a ri e s j u st g e t
t h e m o u t o f t h e w a y b e f o r e w e g o i n t o t h e a ff i d a v i t .
ADV

BOTES

SC:

Chairperson

I

h a ve

st u d i e d

at

the

U n i v e r s i t y o f P r e t o r i a o b t a i n e d t h e d e g re e s B L C a n d L L B . I
j o i n e d t h e P re t o r i a S o ci e t y o f A d v o c a t e s i n 1 9 9 6 . I d i d
p u p i l l a g e , p a st p u p i l l a g e a n d I c o m m e n c e d p r a ct i c e i n 1 9 9 7 ,
20

the 1 December 1997.

S o r r y I d i d p u p i l l a g e i n 1 9 9 7 , p a st

p u p i l l a g e t h e n c o m m e n c e d p r a ct i c e o n t h e 1 D e ce m b e r 1 9 7 .
I re m a i n e d a m e m b e r o f t h e P r e t o ri a S o ci e t y o f A d v o c a t e s. I
a m st i l l a m e m b e r o f t h e P re t o ri a S o ci e t y o f A d v o c a t e s.

I

w a s e l e ct e d t o t h e B a r C o u n s e l i n 2 0 0 5 . I w a s e l e ct e d a s t h e
D e p u t y C h a i r p e r s o n o f t h e B a r C o u n s e l d u r i n g t h i s p e ri o d
Page 17 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
w h i c h i s r e l e v a n t f o r p u rp o s e s o f t h i s c o m m i s si o n .

I served

a s t h e C h a i r m a n o f t h e P r e t o ri a B a r C o u n s e l t w o y e a r s a g o
a n d I r e c e i v e d – I w a s r e c o m m e n d e d f o r s e n i o r st a t u s i n
2 0 1 3 a n d t h e P r e si d e n t , t h e f o r m e r P r e si d e n t Z u m a si g n e d
my letters patent in September 2014.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k yo u I t h i n k t h a t i s t h e b a c k g r o u n d

t h a t I w a n t e d u s t o d e a l w i t h f i r st j a .
ADV SONI SC:

Now Mr Botes the – do you know Ms

Makhubele?
10

A D V B O T E S S C : C h a i r p e r s o n I k n o w Ju d g e M a k h u b e l e v e r y
well.

I k n o w h e r si n ce I h a v e c o m m e n c e d m y p r a ct i c e i n

1997.

We w e r e m e m b e r s o f t h e B a r C o u n s e l f o r m a n y y e a r s

and

allow

me

we

have

developed

a

v e r y,

very

good

re l a t i o n s h i p . A v e r y co r d i a l r e l a t i o n s h i p .
I a l w a y s e n co u r a g e d h e r j o ki n g l y a n d s e ri o u sl y t h a t s h e i s
re a d y t o b e a p p o i n t e d . S h e i s r e a d y t o g ra c e t h e b e n c h a n d
w h e n e v e r I s a w h e r, I s a i d t o h e r, b u t co m e o n , c o m e o n y o u
m u st d o i t n o w, t h e t i m e i s ri g h t . A n d w e – w e re a l l y, r e a l l y
e st a b l i sh e d a ve r y, v e r y g o o d r e l a t i o n sh i p b a s e d o n i n t e g ri t y,
20

b a se d o n t r u st . We w e r e n e ve r o p p o n e n t s i n m a t t e r s.
We w e r e n e v e r i n v o l v e d i n – i n l i t i g a t i o n a n d – b u t w e
re a l l y, r e a l l y g o t a l o n g v e ry, v e r y w e l l .

And I knew that she

w a s a b o u t t o – a b o u t t o b e i n t e r vi e w e d b y t h e J u d i ci a l
S e r vi c e s C o m m i s si o n .
e a rl y

O ct o b e r

2017

I a l s o k n e w t h e n t h a t i n O ct o b e r –
that

the

c o m m i s si o n

Page 18 of 253

sat,

J u d i ci al

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
S e r vi c e s C o m m i s s i o n a n d I a l s o k n e w b e c a u s e i n o u r s o ci e t y
w h e n o n e o f o u r m e m b e r s r e c e i v e s n e w s t h e d a y, o n t h e d a y,
the evening or the day thereafter that they have been
re c o m m e n d e d i t s p r e a d s l i k e a ve l d f i r e i n o u r so ci e t y a n d
we also proud of it.
We p ri d e o u r se l v e s t o m a k e o u r m e m b e r s a v a i l a b l e t o – t o
do

Ju d i c i a l

service

and

I

was

very

pleased.

I

did

u n f o rt u n a t e l y n o t p h o n e h e r a t t h e t i m e I w a s l i t t l e b i t b u s y
w i t h – w i t h o t h e r i s s u e s a n d w h e n I re c e i v e d h e r c a l l e a rl y i n
10

November I

was

in

my

v e h i cl e

t ra v e l l i n g

f ro m

or to

a

d e st i n a t i o n . I h a d h e r ce l l p h o n e n u m b e r o n m y c e l l u l a r
telephone

and

when

the

phone

ra n g

and

it

said

M a k h u b e l e m y f i r st r e a ct i o n w a s t o co n g ra t u l a t e h e r.

Nana
I sa i d ,

Nana this is now a very pleasant call congratulations upon
your appointment.
M y s u b m i s s i o n w a s i t w a s o v e r d u e b u t I w i s h y o u a ve r y
p l e a sa n t , a ve r y p r o s p e ro u s c a r e e r o n t h e b e n c h a n d m y
w o rd s w e r e st i l l h o p e f u l l y w e w i l l s e e yo u i n h i g h e r e c h e l o n s
and
20

maybe

an

appointment

in

the

SCA.

And

Ju d g e

M a k h u b e l e w a s e xt re m e l y f ri e n d l y l i k e s h e a l w a y s i s. S h e i s
a f ri e n d l y p e r s o n .

I h a v e n e v e r e x p e ri e n c e d a n y a n i m o si t y

b e t w e e n u s a n d y e s so t h a t i s h o w t h e c o n v e r s a t i o n st a rt e d .
I

was

totally

unaware

of

her

being

appointed

C h a i r p e r s o n o f t h e i n t e ri m B o a r d o f P R A S A .
brought to my attention.

as

the

It was never

I w a s si m p l y t o t a l l y u n a w a r e o f i t

Page 19 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
and when she informed me that she was appointed as the
Chairperson of the interim Board it did not come as a shock
i t j u st ca m e a s a s u r p ri s e .
I s a i d , o h w e l l t h a t i s – t h a t i s g o o d , g o o d t o h e a r.

I did

n o t k n o w w h a t t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e i n t e ri m B o a r d w a s, I d o n o t
know how long her tenure would have been.

I do not know

w h a t t h e b a c kg r o u n d w a s, t h a t w a s t h e f i r st t i m e t h a t I h a v e
learnt about her appointment.
I thought that well now that she is appointed in that
10

p o si t i o n m a y b e t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e p h o n e c a l l i s t o e n g a g e
m y s e r vi c e s i n so m e m a n n e r o r a n o t h e r a n d I a s k h e r, h o w
c a n I b e o f a s si st a n ce J u d g e M a k h u b e l e a n d s h e s a i d t o m e
t h a t s h e w a s a p p o i n t e d a s t h e C h a i r p e r so n o f t h e i n t e ri m
B o a rd b y t h e f o r m e r P re s i d e n t w h o d e p l o y e d h e r t h e r e a n d I
ask

her

but

for

what

reason

and

she

said

to

me

u n e q u i v o c a l l y a n d i n n o u n ce rt a i n t e r m s t o s o rt o u t t h e m e s s
a t P R A S A a n d t o cl e a n u p . T h o s e w e re h e r w o r d s.
She then mentioned to me that it came to her knowledge
that
20

I

am

involved

in

pending

litigation

C o n s u l t i n g E n g i n e e r s i s o r w a s t h e p l a i n t i ff .

where

S i y a ya

I s a i d t o h e r,

y e s b u t b e f o r e y o u g o a n y f u rt h e r P R A S A i s r e p r e s e n t e d b y
s e n i o r c o u n s e l A d v o ca t e K e n n e d y Ts a t s w a n e w h o i s t h e
current Chairperson of Johannesburg Bar Counsel who I
k n o w v e r y w e l l a n d w h o I h a v e a v e ry, v e ry, v e r y g o o d
re l a t i o n s h i p w i t h a n d t h i s m a t t e r s t h e r e w e r e f i v e m a t t e r s.
Page 20 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
T h e s e m a t t e r s h a v e a h i st o ry.
I t i s n o t s o m e t h i n g t h a t j u st ca m e a b o u t .

We a r e l i t e r a l l y

Chairperson engaged in high, high profile litigation.
c a n g o b a c k – b a c k o n e st e p .

I f I j u st

I g o t i n vo l v e d i n t h e f i v e

m a t t e r s d u ri n g 2 0 1 7 a n d t h a t w a s w h e n a l l t h e s e m a t t e r s
w e re s e t d o w n f o r h e a ri n g i n – o n t h e s a m e d a y i n P r e t o ri a
H i g h C o u rt a n d a t t h e ca l l o f t h e r o l l b e f o r e t h e D e p u t y
J u d g e P re si d e n t i s J u d g e L e d w a b a t h a t w a s o n t h e 3 0 M a y
2017.
10

T h e l i q u i d a t o r s f o r S i y a y a a n d P R A S A’s t e a m o f a t t o r n e y s
l e d b y A d v o ca t e K e n n e d y Tsa t s w a n e S C d e ci d e d , l e t u s
c o n so l i d a t e a l l f i v e o f t h e m a t t e r s a n d r e f e r i t f o r a r b i t ra t i o n .
B e c a u s e t h e i s su e s C h a i r p e r s o n w e r e c ri s p .

There was one

– t h e r e w e r e t w o p r i m a ri l y i s s u e s.
1 . D i d S i ya y a d o t h e w o r k t h a t a r e re f l e ct e d a n d c o n t a i n e d
i n t h e i n v o i c e s ? I f t h a t i s s o t h e n e xt q u e st i o n i s:
2 . W h a t sh o u l d t h e q u a n t u m b e ?
That – that was the litigation.
o r d e r s.
20

We t h e n p r e p a r e d d r a f t

We p r o vi d e d t h e c o u rt w i t h t h o s e d r a f t o r d e r s a n d

w e t h e n s u b se q u e n t l y d e ci d e d t o e n g a g e r e t i r e d J u d g e F r i t z
B r a n d w h o r e t i re d a t t h e S u p r e m e C o u rt o f A p p e a l t o h e a r a l l
t h e se

matters

by

way

of

arbitration.

We

made

an

a p p o i n t m e n t h e re i n S a n d t o n a t t h e C h a m b e r s o f A d v o ca t e
Ts a t s w a n e S C t o m e e t w i t h J u d g e B r a n d .
– t h e f o rm a l i t i e s a n d t h e p r o c e d u r e .
Page 21 of 253

We i r o n e d o u t t h e

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
There were definite time lines that we agreed upon.
We n t t o d i s c o v e r f u rt h e r p a rt i c u l a r s, e x p e rt s e t c e t e r a . W h e n
– h o w m a n y d a y s w e – w e h a d i n m i n d f o r t h e a r b i t ra t i o n t o
b e c o n d u ct e d e t c e t e r a .

A n d o f a l l t h a t f e l l i n p l a ce l i k e w e

h a ve a rr a n g e d a n d h o w i t w a s a g r e e d u p o n .
H o w e v e r, C h a i r p e r so n t h i s a rb i t r a t i o n n e v e r g o t o u t o f
t h e b l o c k s.
re a s o n s.

T h i s ki t e d i d n o t g e t i n t o t h e a i r f o r v a r i o u s

O n e o f t h e re a s o n s w e r e t h a t f u rt h e r p a r t i c u l a r s

f ro m o u r si d e w e r e n o t f o rt h c o m i n g .
10

We w e r e st r u g g l i n g t o

g e t i n f o rm a t i o n b u t b e t h a t a s i t m a y J u d g e B r a n d w a s
a l w a y s a v a i l a b l e . H e s a i d t o u s, w h e n y o u g u y s h a v e s o rt e d
o u t y o u r – y o u r i n t e r n a l h o u s e ke e p i n g , p h o n e m e I a m i n
S t e l l e n b o s ch w e c a n m a k e a n a r ra n g e m e n t , w e c a n – w e ca n
a r r a n g e d a t e s a n d w e c a n l e t t h i s a r b i t r a t i o n g e t o n i t s w a y.
So that is – that is the background to my involvement
i n t h e m a t t e r.
two

a t t o r n e y s,

Siyaya.

B u t a l s o , n o t e w o rt h y C h a i rp e r s o n t h e r e w e r e
f i rm s

of

attorneys

involved

on

behalf

of

I t w a s n o t o n l y S i y a ya t h e r e w e r e t w o c o m p a n i e s.

Siyaya Consulting which were in liquidation and another
20

c o m p a n y w h i c h w e r e n o t i n l i q u i d a t i o n . S o t h e a t t o rn e y s w h o
dealt with this matters from the inception I only got involved
s h o rt l y b e f o r e t h e t ri a l – b e f o r e – a g i n – i n M a y 2 0 1 7 . T h a t
w a s M r Ts h e p o M a t h o p o h e i s a w e l l - k n o w n a t t o rn e y i n
Johannesburg and Mr Mathopo and I went through all the
p l e a d i n g s, a l l t h e d o cu m e n t s C h a i r p e r s o n .
Page 22 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
T h e d i s c o ve r e d d o c u m e n t s w e r e l i t e r a l l y t h o u s a n d s
a n d t h o u s a n d s o f p a g e s.

9 0 % o f i t t o t a l l y i rr e l e v a n t b u t b e

that as it may and also Mr Johan Crouser from Crouser
I n c o r p o r a t e d h e w a s i n P r e t o ri a a n d h e a l s o p l a y e d a r o l e
b e ca u s e i t w a s n o t o n l y M r M a t h o p o ’s co r r e sp o n d e n t i n
P r e t o ri a b u t h e w a s a ct i ve l y i n v o l v e d i n t h e s e m a t t e r s.
B e t h a t a s i t m a y Ju d g e M a k h u b e l e j u st t o t u r n b a c k
t o o u r – t o o u r c o n ve r s a t i o n , o u r t e l e p h o n i c c o n v e r s a t i o n I
s a i d t o h e r, N a n a P R A S A i s r e p r e s e n t e d b y M r M a d i m p i
10

M o g a s h o a f r o m D i a l e M o g a sh o a A t t o rn e y s.

He is a very

senior attorney and PRASA is represented by senior counsel
a n d j u n i o r co u n s e l .
Why are you phoning me?

And she said to me, I do

n o t t r u st t h e i n t e r n a l l e g a l d e p a rt m e n t o f P R A S A .

I do not

t ru st w h a t i s b e i n g c o n v e ye d t o m e . T h e a t t o r n e y s, s h e u s e d
the

w o rd

is

captured

undermined.
phone me?

and

sh e

feels

that

she

A n d I sa i d t o h e r, b u t w h y m e ?

is

being

Why do you

S h e s a i d , n o I w a n t t o e st a b l i s h t h e t r u e f a ct s.

W h a t i s g o i n g o n i n t h i s l i t i g a t i o n ? W h a t i s t h e st a t u s o f t h i s
20

pending litigation?

I sa i d t o h e r, s u m m o n s e s w e r e i s s u e d ,

p l e a s w e re f i l e d , i n i t i a l l y b a r e d e n i a l s, l a t e r o n a m e n d m e n t s
w e re e ff e ct e d .
I told her about the pending arbitration before Judge
F ri t z B r a n d a n d s h e a s k e d m e i f I c a n g i v e h e r m o r e
information.

I

said

Nana

what

I

Page 23 of 253

can

give

you

is

the

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
p l e a d i n g s, t h e s u m m o n s e s i n e a c h o f t h e se m a t t e r s, t h e
p l e a s, t h e r e w a s a n i n s o l v e n c y e n q u i r y C h a i rp e r s o n t h a t w a s
c o n d u ct e d o ve r a p e ri o d o f f i ve d a y s i n S e p t e m b e r.
T h e C o m m i s si o n e r p r e p a r e d a v e r y, v e r y t h o r o u g h
re p o rt . I w a s i n p o s s e s si o n o f t h a t re p o rt . I c a n p r o v i d e y o u
w i t h t h a t r e p o rt a n d t h e r e w a s a l s o a t r a n s cri p t i o n m a d e o f
t h e i n s o l v e n c y e n q u i r y.

Ju st t o p u t y o u i n t h e p i ct u re , w h y

d i d w e d e ci d e t o i n i t i a t e a n i n s o l v e n c y e n q u i r y ? M r M a t h o p o
a n d t h e l i q u i d a t o r s a t t h e t i m e t h o u g h t i t w a s p ru d e n t t o
10

d e ci d e o r d e t e r m i n e f o r o n c e a n d f o r a l l a r e w e c h a si n g a
g h o st o r i s t h e r e g e n u i n e m e ri t i n t h e se m a t t e r s ?

For good

re a s o n b e c a u se t h e – t h e e st a t e d i d n o t h a v e t h e f u n d s t o
l i t i g a t e a d i n f i n i t u m a n d j u st t o w a st e m o n e y.
T h e r e w e r e cl a i m s b y f o r m e r e m p l o y e e s a n d c re d i t o r s
a n d M r M a t h o p o a n d t h e l i q u i d a t o r s vi e w w a s, w e d o n o t
h a ve t h a t l u x u r y o f a w a r c h e st w o rt h o f m i l l i o n s t h a t w e c a n
l i t i g a t e r a t h e r e rr o n t h e si d e o f c a u t i o n t h a t w a s a l s o m y
a d vi c e . A n d w e t h e n d e ci d e d C h a i rp e r s o n r a t h e r sp e n d 3 , 4
o r 5 d a y s i n t h e i n s o l v e n c y e n q u i r y.
20

Call these witnesses from PRASA who was personally
i n v o l v e d i n t h e s e p r o j e ct s a n d t o f i n d o u t f r o m t h e m w a s t h e
work done, is the monies due, what is the problem?

And if

t h e i r e vi d e n c e i s, l i st e n y o u r – t h e l i q u i d a t o r o r t h e p l a i n t i ff ,
t h e l i q u i d a t e d c o m p a n y o r t h e p l a i n t i ff d i d n o t d o t h e w o r k o r
there was fraud or whatever then we would have known how
Page 24 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
t o a d vi s e t h e l i q u i d a t o r s s o t h a t t h e y c a n r e p o rt b a c k t o t h e –
t o t h e c r e d i t o r s, t h e co n c u r su s c r e d i t o r u m .
S o h a vi n g s a i d t h a t t h a t i s e x a ct l y w h a t w e d i d b u t I
m a d e t h e d e ci si o n t o i n f o r m M r M o g a s h o a a n d t o i n vi t e
A d v o c a t e K e n n e d y Ts a t s w a n e t o b e p r e s e n t a t t h e i n s o l v e n c y
e n q u i r y.
I sa i d t o t h e m , g u y s b e p r e se n t , h e r e y o u c a n h e a r
w i t h y o u r o w n e a r s w h a t t h e s e w i t n e s s e s a r e g o i n g t o t e st i f y
t o a n d t h e n y o u c a n a l s o d e ci d e h o w y o u w a n t t o g o a b o u t .
10

I f t h e y d e ci d e o r i f t h e i r e vi d e n c e u n d e r o a t h i s d e t ri m e n t a l
t o w a r d s t h e p l a i n t i ff s w e l l t h e n so b e i t .
b e ca u s e

we

cannot

c a rr y

on

like

this

A n d vi c e v e r s a
and

j u st

w a st e

hundreds and hundreds of thousands of Rands in litigation.
B o t h M r Mo g a s h o a a n d A d v o ca t e Ts a t s w a n e S C a c c e pt e d m y
i n vi t a t i o n , t h e y w e re p r e se n t .
We

called

witnesses

Chairperson,

witnesses

who

w e re p e r s o n a l l y i n v o l v e d i n t h e s e m a t t e r s a n d t h e y t e st i f i e d .
I a s k e d t h e m q u e st i o n s, l i st e n t h i s p r o j e ct , w h a t w a s d o n e
e t c e t e r a , e t c e t e r a ? A l l o f t h e m h a d n o r e s e r v a t i o n t o t e st i f y
20

i n f ro n t o f t h e C o m m i s si o n e r a n d t h e i r e vi d e n c e w a s – w a s
proper presented.
I

also

p r o vi d e d

Advocate

Ts a t s w a n e

SC

an

o p p o rt u n i t y t o c r o s s -e x a m i n e t h e w i t n e s se s t h a t i s o n re c o r d .
I s a i d t o h i m , K e n n e d y y o u a r e w e l c o m e c ro s s - e x a m i n e t h e
w i t n e s s e s.

H e s a i d , n o i t i s n o t n e ce s s a r y t o d o s o t h e y
Page 25 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
re c e i v e d t h e i r ri g h t s.
S o w h a t M r K r u g e r, h e w a s t h e P re s i d i n g O ff i c e r i n
t h e i n s o l v e n c y e n q u i r y h e p r e p a r e d a re p o rt . To c u t t h e l o n g
st o r y s h o rt C h a i r p e r s o n I m a d e m y s e l f a v a i l a b l e .

I took it

u p o n m y s e l f a n d I s a i d t o Ju d g e M a k h u b e l e , N a n a w h a t I w i l l
d o i s I w i l l m a k e c o p i e s o f a l l t h e p l e a d i n g s, t h e s u m m o n s e s
a n d t h e p l e a s, t h e i n s o l v e n c y, a c o p y o f t h e t r a n s c ri p t o f t h e
i n s o l v e n c y e n q u i r y a n d M r K ru g e r ’s re p o rt .

So that will give

y o u a c l e a r i n d i c a t i o n o f w h a t t h e st a t u s o f t h e – o f t h e
10

matters are.
S h e a s k e d m e , w h a t i s y o u r – w h a t d o yo u t h i n k ?
W h a t i s yo u r vi e w ?

I s a i d , t h e e vi d e n ce t h a t w a s l e d i n t h e

i n s o l v e n c y e n q u i r y I a m n o t c o n vi n c e d t h a t t h e q u a n t u m h a s
been addressed.

I think that is an enquiry for another day

but that some of the work was done.

Ye s i t s e e m s l i k e i t .

T h e r e w a s o n e w i t n e s s C h a i r p e r s o n w h o s a i d t h a t h e st i l l
w a n t e d t o g o a n d d o a q u a n t i f i ca t i o n .

He was not hundred

p e r c e n t s u r e a n d w e a l l o w e d h i m t h a t o p p o rt u n i t y.
Be that as it may Judge Makhubele then asked me
20

w i l l I t h e n c o l l a t e t h o s e d o cu m e n t s w h i c h I d i d a n d I t h e n
a f t e r o u r – o u r c o n ve r s a t i o n C h a i r p e r s o n I i m m e d i a t e l y l i ke
t h e n e xt t e l e p h o n e c a l l a l e rt e d b o t h Mr M a t h o p o a n d M r
C r o u s e r b e c a u s e h a vi n g re g a rd t o t h e e t h i ca l r u l e s I w a s
e xt r e m e l y, e xt r e m e l y I w i l l n o t s a y n e r v o u s, I w i l l n o t s a y
a n xi o u s, I w a s w o rri e d a n d I i n f o rm e d t h e m . I s a i d , g u y s i t i s
Page 26 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
very

i m p o rt a n t

that

our

approach

in

this

i n st a n c e

and

s p e ci f i c a l l y w h a t t ra n s p i r e d n o w w e m u st e i t h e r c o n t i n u e o n
t h i s p a t h o r w e m u st t e r m i n a t e t h i s c o m m u n i c a t i o n b e c a u s e
t h i s c a n l e a d t o – t o b i g p r o b l e m s.
We t h e n t o o k t h e d e ci si o n a s si st t h e J u d g e .

Judge

Makhubele was appointed as the – as the Chairperson of the
i n t e ri m B o a rd o f P R A S A a s si st h e r i n so f a r a s w e c a n b u t
re m a i n a l e rt e d .
a n yt h i n g
10

that

Do not go into the arena.
is

unethical.

c o m m u n i c a t e w i t h e a c h o t h e r.

And

very

Do not do

important

we

Me co m m u n i c a t i n g w i t h t h e

t w o se t s o f a t t o r n e y s a n d m e c o m m u n i c a t i n g w i t h J u d g e
M a k h u b e l e , e v e r yt h i n g w a s t r a n s p a r e n t .
I t h e n p r e p a re d t h e b u n d l e .

I indexed the bundle.

I

paginated the bundle and I made an appointment to meet
w i t h J u d g e M a k h u b e l e a t t h e o ff i c e s o f P R A S A a n d t h a t
happened on the – on the 14 November 2017.

Judge

M a k h u b e l e e x p l a i n e d t o m e w h e r e P R A S A’s h e a d q u a rt e r s
w e re j u d g e . . . u h - u h , C h a i rp e r s o n .

Um, I have lived in the

vi ci n i t y a s a . . . a s a st u d e n t b e c a u s e i t i s i n t h e h e a r t o f t h e
20

st u d e n t u m , c o m m u n i t y.
I m a d e m y. . . I a t t e n d e d t h e . . . t h e u h , b u i l d i n g .

I was

t a k e n u p t o t h e t o p f l o o r, v e r y i m p r e s si v e , a n d I w a s m a d e . . .
I w a s i n vi t e d i n t o a b i g b o a r d r o o m a n d I w a s. . . I s a t t h e r e
a n d I w a s a r m e d w i t h m y b u n d l e o f d o cu m e n t s.
J u d g e M a k h u b e l e u m , e n t e r e d t h e ro o m .
Page 27 of 253

Once again,

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
v e r y f ri e n d l y.

Ve r y c o r d i a l .

Um, very humble.

She is a

h u m b l e p e r s o n . A n d s h e d i s c u s s e d t h e v a ri o u s m a t t e r s w i t h
me.

I

told

her

what

the

bundle

of

documents

c o n si st . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I w a n t t o i n t e r ru p t y o u Mr B o t e s . I a m
v e r y s o rr y.
A D V B O T E S S C : Ye s, C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e i t i s n o t s o s e ri o u s. I w a n t e d t o t e l l
e a rl i e r.
10

I n u h , e i t h e r. . . i n h e r a ff i d a vi t , s h e a l s o s a y s h e r e

y o u . . . y o u a r e . . . y o u a r e a v e r y g o o d p e r so n .

I think you

s a i d yo u a re c h a r m i n g . [ l a u g h s]
A D V B O T E S S C : [ l a u g h s] I a m n o t g o i n g t o . . [ l a u g h s]
CHAIRPERSON:

[ l a u g h s]

S h e . . . s h e . . . s h e m a y d a y s a p a rt

w h e r e s h e s a y s u h , y o u kn o w, y o u . . . yo u . . . y o u a r e v e r y. . . a
very good person.

Yo u k n o w e a c h o t h e r q u i t e w e l l a n d u h ,

y o u kn o w, yo u a re f ri e n d l y a n d s o o n .
S o I j u st t h o u g h t b e ca u s e y o u h a v e b e e n u h , yo u k n o w,
s a yi n g v e r y g o o d t h i n g s a b o u t h e r.

I m u st j u st t e l l y o u t h a t

s h e a l s o h a s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
20

ADV BOTES SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: ...good thing to say about you.
ADV BOTES SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, I i n t e r ru p t e d y o u I a m s o r ry.
ADV BOTES SC: Thank you. No, Chairperson I do not want
t o d e l v e i n t o . . . i n t o m a t t e r s w h i ch a r e i rr e l e v a n t .
Page 28 of 253

The long

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
a n d t h e s h o rt i s.

I h a v e p r o vi d e d h e r w i t h t h e d o c u m e n t s

a n d I a l s o s a i d t o h e r:
“ Ta k e t h e s e d o c u m e n t s.

Ta k e i t w h o e v e r, t h e b o a r d .

S t u d y t h e s e d o c u m e n t s. M a k e u p y o u r m i n d . B u t w e
m u st

somehow

finalised.

or

another

get

the

arbitrations

I t i s n o t i n t h e i n t e r e st o f j u st i ce t o l e t

t h e se m a t t e r s j u st g r o w n o l d ”.
And that in essence, that was it.
Chairperson.
10

Then... and allow me

Ju d g e M a k h u b e l e a n d I co m m u n i c a t e d v i a

W h a t sA p p a n d t e l e p h o n e c a l l s r e g u l a rl y t h e r e a f t e r.
A l l o f t h o s e W h a t sA p p ’s, a l l o f t h o s e c o m m u n i c a t i o n s I
re v e a l e d t o t h e i n v e st i g a t o r s o f t h i s C o m m i s si o n .

I had no

o b j e ct i o n w h a t s o e v e r f o r t h e m t o m a k e c o p i e s o f m y c e l l
phone.
T h e y m a d e a m i rr o r c o p y o f m y ce l l p h o n e a n d m y i P a d
which I have with me.

I h a v e g o t a b so l u t e l y n o t h i n g t o h i d e

and there is nothing absolutely nothing untoward what...
what happened.
T h e n i t cu l m i n a t e d i n t o a s e t t l e m e n t .
20

Chairperson,

Judge

Makhubele

and

I

I n D e c e m b e r,

um,

during

our

d i s c u s si o n s, s h e t h e n i n f o rm e d m e t h a t P R A S A’s b o a r d w a s
s a t i sf i e d t h a t t h e w o r k w a s d o n e , t h e m o n e y i s d u e a n d
p a ya b l e , a n d t h a t t h e se m a t t e r s s h o u l d b e s e t t l e d .
And I said:
“Ve r y w e l l .

I f t h a t i s t h e d e ci s i o n .
Page 29 of 253

We l l , t h e n t h a t i s

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
t h e d e ci si o n .

I n f o r m y o u r a t t o r n e y s a s su c h s o t h a t

w e c a n g e t u m , t h e b o a t o r t h e t ra i n o u t o f t h e
st a t i o n ”.
Madimpe...

Mr

Madimpe

Mogashoa

then

p r e p a re d

a

formal tender in terms of Rule 34 of the Uniform Rules of the
H i g h C o u rt a n d t h a t t e n d e r e n t a i l e d C h a i r p e r s o n , t h e c a p i t a l
a m o u n t s i n a l l t h e s e m a t t e r s.
I t h e n i n f o rm e d M r M a t h o p o a n d M r C ro u s e t h a t i s n o t
how
10

I

u n d e r st o o d

the

co m m u n i c a t i o n

between

Judge

M a k h u b e l e a n d I b e ca u s e s h e a l s o m e n t i o n e d i n t e r e s t .
A n d t h e r e i s a l s o a l e t t e r t o t h a t e ff e ct w h i c h P R A S A’s
i n t e ri m b o a r d d e s p a t ch e d t o t h e i r a t t o r n e y s i n w h i c h t h e y
i n st r u ct e d t h e a t t o r n e y s, l i k e t h e t e n d e r a n d p r o vi d e f o r t h e
c a p i t a l p l u s i n t e r e st b u t n o t l e g a l c o st s.
So

then

t h e re

was

a...

t h e re

was

communication

e x c h a n g e d a n d e v e n t u a l l y, t h e i r l e t t e r c a m e b a c k a n d s a i d :
“S o r r y, w e m a d e a m i st a k e .

I t i s t h e ca p i t a l p l u s t h e

i n t e r e st . T h e i n t e re st m u st b e c a l c u l a t e d . ”
A n d I p r e p a r e d t h e n a d r a f t a w a r d b e ca u s e t h e . . . t h e . . .
20

the plan was to inform Judge Brand:
“ D o n o t sp e n d a n y m o r e t i m e o n . . . o n t h e s e m a t t e r s.
We h a v e r e a c h e d t h e s e t t l e m e n t . W h a t w e w i l l d o i s,
w e w i l l a p p ro a c h yo u a n d t h e n y o u c a n m a k e t h e
s e t t l e m e n t s a n d a w a rd ”.
And I took it upon myself Chairperson to prepare those
Page 30 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
a w a r d s.

T h o s e a w a rd s a re a t t a ch e d t o m y a ff i d a vi t .

And I

d e sp a t c h e d t h e a w a rd s t o M r M a d i m p e M o g a s h o a .

He took

i n st r u ct i o n s

is

and

he

was

satisfied.

T h e re

also

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t o t h a t e ff e ct .
J u d g e B r a n d w a s c o i n c i d e n t a l l y b u s y w i t h a n a r b i t ra t i o n
i n P re t o ri a a n d t h e o ff i ce s o f A d a m s & A d a m s I n co r p o r a t e d i n
B r o o kl y n B ri d g e .
H e t h e n c o m m u n i c a t e d t o u s. H e s a i d :
“G u y s, i f yo u a r e o n t h e s a m e p a g e , I c a n m a k e
10

m y se l f a v a i l a b l e i n a l u n c h h o u r.

U m , w h e n e ve r i t i s

c o n ve n i e n t f o r y o u , c o m e a n d t h e n I w i l l m a k e u h , t h e
a w a r d s. . . a w a r d s o f t h e a rb i t r a t i o n ”.
B u t J u d g e B r a n d a s ke d m e a n d M r M o g a s h o a b o t h t o
p r e s e n t b e c a u s e h e w a n t s t o b e s a t i sf i e d t h a t t h i s i s a
proper settlement. His words to us um, were:
“I d o n o t w a n t t o c o m e b a c k h e r e ”.
A n d t h a t i s e x a ct l y w h a t w e d i d .
a w a r d s.

I prepared the um, draft

We t h e n u m , m a d e a n a p p o i n t m e n t a n d w e s a w

J u d g e B ra n d a t t h e o ff i c e s o f A d a m s & A d a m s o n t h e
20

7 t h o f F e b r u a r y. . .
I j u st w a n t t o g e t t h e e xa ct . . . l a y m y h a n d o n t h e e x a ct
date.

Uh,

C h a i r p e r so n ,

7th of February 2018.

And

that

was

Judge

Brand

on
made

the...
all

ja,

these

a w a r d s, a w a rd s o f t h e a r b i t r a t i o n i n m y p r e s e n c e a n d i n M r
M o g a s h o a ’s p r e s e n c e .
Page 31 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
We w e r e a l l s a t i s f i e d t h e s e t t l e m e n t w a s r e a c h e d .

And

t h a t i s p r e t t y m u c h w h e n t h e co m m u n i c a t i o n b e t w e e n m y s e l f
and

Ju d g e

Makhubele

also

st o p p e d

because

there

was

n o t h i n g m o r e t o c o m m u n i c a t e a b o u t . E v e r yt h i n g w a s s e t t l e d .
B u t C h a i r p e r s o n , m o n e y w a s n o t f o rt h c o m i n g . M o n e y
d i d n o t f l o w.

T h e r e w a s p r o vi si o n m a d e w h e r e t h e m o n e y

s h o u l d b e p a i d i n t o u m , i n t o M r C r o u s e ’s u m , t ru st a c c o u n t .
A n d w h a t s u b s e q u e n t l y t r a n sp i r e d , b u t I d i d n o t p l a y
a r o l e i n t h a t , i s t h a t t h e a t t o r n e y s t h e n d e ci d e d t o u m , b ri n g
10

a n a p p l i c a t i o n f o r t h e se a w a r d s t o b e m a d e o r d e r s o f c o u rt i n
a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h e p r o vi s i o n s o f t h e A r b i t r a t i o n A c t a n d I
b e ca m e i n v o l ve d .
T h e n I p r e p a r e d a l l t h e a pp l i ca t i o n s.

The notice of

m o t i o n s, t h e f o u n d i n g a ff i d a vi t s w i t h t h e a n n e x u r e s a n d a l l
t h o se a p p l i c a t i o n s w e r e p r o p e rl y s e r ve d o n M r M a d i m p e
M o g a s h o a ’s o ff i c e a n d t h e y w e r e s e t d o w n f o r h e a r i n g i n
P r e t o ri a o n t h e u n o p p o s e d m o t i o n c o u rt r o l l f o r F ri d a y, t h e
9th of March 2018.
I n t h a t w e e k, t h e a t t o r n e y s f o r. . . f o r. . . f o r t h e l i q u i d a t o r s
20

st a rt e d

r e c e i vi n g

correspondence

f ro m

Bowman

Gilfillan.

C o rr e s p o n d e n c e t o t h e a ff e ct t h a t t h e i r. . . t h e i r i n st r u ct i o n s t o
o p p o s e t h e se a p p l i c a t i o n s.
M r M a t h o p o , M r C r o u s e a n d I , C h a i rp e r s o n h a d va r i o u s
d i s c u s si o n s a n d o u r b i g g e st c h a l l e n g e w a s, w h a t d o w e
a b o u t t h i s?

S h o u l d w e sa y t o t h e m , “ Ve r y w e l l .
Page 32 of 253

We a r e

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
g o i n g t o r e m o ve t h e m a t t e r s a n d a l l o w h i m a n o p p o rt u n i t y t o
f i l e a ff i d a vi t s.
O r, a r e w e g o i n g t o p e r si st w i t h t h e s e m a t t e r s ? A n d w e
t h e n d e ci d e d , l e t u s r a t h e r g i v e t h e m t h e b e n e f i t o f t h e d o u b t
a n d a s k t h e m t o p r o d u c e a u t h o ri t y i n a c co r d a n ce w i t h t h e
p r o vi si o n s o f R u l e 7 o f t h e U n i f o r m R u l e s o f C o u rt .
U n f o rt u n a t e l y, t h e y c o u l d n o t . T h e y c o u l d n o t p r o vi d e u s
with

uh,

board

re s o l u t i o n

on

a

piece

of

paper

which

e m a n a t e d f r o m P R A S A’s b o a r d t h a t t h e y a r e d u l y a p p o i n t e d
10

a s P R A S A’s a t t o r n e y s t o o p p o se t h e s e m a t t e r s.
We t h e n s a i d t o o u r s e l v e s:
“ We l l , i f t h e y. . . t h e y a r e u n a b l e t o d o s o l e t u s. . . l e t
u s p r o c e e d w i t h t h e se m a t t e r s. ”
On the 9th, Friday the 9th, three applications were the
unopposed motion court roll before one judge.
judges.

Both acting

Acting um, Judge John Holland-Muter and acting

Judge Petersen.
Bowman Gilfillan, on the instructions from, I assume,
P R A S A’ s l e g a l d e p a r t m e n t , i n s t r u c t e d c o u n s e l w h o w a s a t
20

court with the whole team.

I think Ms Lata(?) [00:09:05]

Mabuya was also there.
Uh, another gentleman whose name also appears on
the papers, Mr Fani Dingiswayo.

He was also present and

that... and we started... we started interacting with these
people. They are colleagues.
Page 33 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
And I said to them:
“But guys, how on earth can you oppose these
applications without a mandate?”
A n d t h e y. . . C h a i r p e r s o n , t h e y p e r s i s t e d . T h e y s a i d :
“But we have a mandate. We are entitled to be here
and to oppose these applications”.
And my response was:
“But what on bases?

We h a v e s e t t l e d i t .

There is

the awards.”
10

And they said:
“Listen, we were not consulted with all of this.

We

want an opportunity to ventilate the disputes and to
put...”
I took it upon myself, Chairperson.
dispute emanated from what I did.

This is where the

I then despatched a

W h a t s A p p o r a n S M S t o Ju d g e M a k h u b e l e a n d I a s k e d h e r:
“ D o e s B o w m a n . . . o r d i d P R A S A’s b o a r d i n st ru ct s
A t t o rn e y s, B o w m a n G i l f i l l a n o r c o u n s e l t o o p p o s e
t h e se m a t t e r s w h i c h h a v e b e e n s e t d o w n i n t h i s
20

c o u rt ? ”
A n d h e r r e s p o n s e f o r m p a rt o f t h e co r re s p o n d e n c e i n
which she unequivocally answered that to me and she said:
“ N o , t h e y d o n o t h a v e t h a t a u t h o ri t y.

They do not

h a ve i n st r u ct i o n s o n b e h a l f o f P R A S A ”.
A n d C h a i r p e r s o n , I w a s s a t i sf i e d w i t h t h a t m e s sa g e o n
Page 34 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
m y c e l l p h o n e t h a t w e w e r e ri g h t .

We w e r e e n t i t l e d t o

p e r si st i n t h e a p p l i c a t i o n s a n d t o a s k f o r j u d g m e n t .
We t h e n u h , b y m y co l l e a g u e a n d I , o n b e h a l f o f P R A S A ,
under

the

i n st ru ct i o n s

of

Bowman

Gilfillan,

a p p ro a c h e d

J u d g e P e t e r s e n a n d sa i d t o h i m :
“ We . . . w e . . . w e d o n o t t h i n k i t w i l l m a k e s e n se f o r t w o
c o u rt s t o h e a r e x a ct l y t h e s a m e s e t s o f f a ct s.
t h e u n o p p o se d m o t i o n co u rt .

I t is

T h e y a re g o i n g t o . . . o r

P R A S A i s g o i n g t o a p p l y f o r a p o st p o n e m e n t s o a s t o
10

g i v e t h e m a n o p p o rt u n i t y t o e n t e r i n t o t h e . . . i n t o t h e
litigation.

Can we not take the two or the three files

w i t h h i m a n d t r a n sf e r i t t o C o u rt - 2 A t o J u d g e H o l l a n d Muter and then we can make our submissions before
Judge Holland-Muter?”
He allowed us to do so. And when I stood up eventually
after all the unopposed matters were entertained, I directed
um, Judge Holland-Muter ’s attention to what we are dealing
w i t h . W h a t . . . t o t h e w h o l e b a c k g r o u n d a n d t h e h i s t o r y. A n d
I also said to him:
20

“Our learned friends are here today because their
instructions are to oppose and to uh, prevent these
matters from proceeding today”.
And Judge Holland-Muter asked me:
“Do you know on what basis?”
And I explained that to him. So then the arguments
Page 35 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
commenced before Judge Holland-Muter in um, in open
court and Judge Holland-Muter quite correctly said to me:
“But Mr Botes, it is either they have instructions.
There is such a decision by the board or there is
not.

I mean, if there is such a decision, I am not

going to give judgment to the tune of more than
R 45 million

if

the

opposition

is

bona

fide

and

genuine”.
And I said:
10

“But of course not.

I agree hundred percent with

you. So all that I can present you with M’Lord, is my
cell phone.

There is Exhibit A.

This the question

and there the answer comes”.
And Judge Holland-Muter took it into consideration and
Chairperson, when he read it, he said to my opponent:
“But is there anything better? I mean, you... are you
going to present me with something better than I
have in front me?”
And they said no.
20

And on that basis judgment um, was

granted and each and every of these matters, as applied for
in the notice of motion.
Mathopo

and

Mr

Crouse

And what transpired then is Mr
instructed,

armed

with

these

judgments, applied for a writ to be um, issued by the
registrar in Pretoria.
And

then

instructions

were

given

Page 36 of 253

to

the

s h e r i ff

in

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
Pretoria, Pretoria East, Ms Lana Burger to attach the funds
i n P R A S A’ s a c c o u n t . C h a i r p e r s o n , d o n o t k e e p m e t o i t b u t
it was in excess of R 16 million.

Or just below sixteen or

just in excess of 16 million but it was a substantial amount
o f m o n e y.
A n d t h e s h e r i ff u m , e x e c u t i v e t h o s e w r i t s , a t t a c h e d t h e
m o n i e s i n P R A S A’s b a n k a c c o u n t .

It was withdrawn and

kept in her trust account for the, I think the 14-day period or
the 15-day period to um, expire so as to give PRASA an
10

opportunity to do whatever they deemed prudent in the
circumstances.
That... and that is what Advocate Soni referred to. That
must be met with an urgent application.
urgent applications.

A c t u a l l y, t w o

O n e i n C a p e To w n w h i c h i s i r r e l e v a n t

for purposes of this inquiry and one application in Pretoria
where PRASA asks for interim relief, pending an application
to

have

those

awards

made

by

Judge

Brand

on

the

7th of February 2018 to have that reviewed and set aside.
A l l t h a t t h e y a s k f o r i n t e r i m r e l i e f f o r t h e s h e r i ff n o t t o
20

pay over the funds to um, to the liquidators pending this
process.

I was not involved in the application because I

had other commitments in Umtata but the um, liquidators
briefed senior counsel uh, from Johannesburg to attend to
the application.
The application came in the urgent court before his
Page 37 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
Lordship, Mr Justice Ranchod and Judge Ranchod’s view
was a proper case has been made out for interim relief.
There was a prima facie case and so um, he granted an
i n t e r i m o r d e r.
And eventually Chairperson um, the matter became uh,
t h e r e w a s a r e t u r n d a y.

The return day came before the

H o n o u r a b l e M r J u s t i c e N e i l Tu c h t e n .
There was no opposition and our stance was, we had to
decide, are we going to oppose this application?
10

But

Chairperson, regard being had to the serious allegations.
T h e s e r i o u s a l l e g a t i o n s t h a t w e r e m a d e b y P R A S A’ s l e g a l
department in their papers.
U m , m y v i e w w a s a n d m y. . . m y. . . m y a d v i c e t o t h e
liquidators um, was:
“Listen guys, one... if half of this true... I mean,
there is... there are serious problems.
somebody is... is playing with fire.
um, how we are going to rebut it?

And some...
And secondly

W e d o n o t k n o w.

I mean, we are simply standing outside in the cold.
20

We got now an idea what the internal mechanisms
and workings are.

I would advise anybody to throw

good money after bad money and to oppose these
applications.
it aside.

R a t h e r, a l l o w t h e m a n o p p o r t u n i t y, s e t

Set the uh, awards also aside but go back

to Judge Brand and start afresh with these um,
Page 38 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
arbitrations”.
And that is exactly what happened.

U n f o r t u n a t e l y, o r

f o r t u n a t e l y, J u d g e Tu c h t e n h a d a l l t h e d o c u m e n t s b e f o r e
h i m . H e d i d n o t h a v e a n y o p p o s i n g a ff i d a v i t s b e f o r e h i m b u t
C h a i r p e r s o n , h e c o r r e c t l y, i n m y v i e w, d e e m e d i t p r u d e n t t o
prepare a prober judgment which he did.
He considered all the facts before him and he made
certain remarks pertaining to the manner in which these
matters were attended to and conducted.
10

He

mentioned

Judge

M a k h u b e l e ’s

name

in...

j u d g m e n t a n d t h a t l e d t o t w o . . . t o t w o i s s u e s.
complaint

that

Judge

Makhubele

initiated

in

his

One, the

against

Ju d g e

Tu c h t e n .
Um, I read the complaint.

I h a d t h e u m , o p p o rt u n i t y t o

re a d h i s r e s p o n s e a n d t h a t w a s re f e rr e d t o t h e J u d i ci a l
S e r vi c e s C o m m i s si o n a n d h e w a s u m , s u b s e q u e n t l y f o u n d . . .
t h e Ju d i ci a l S e r vi c e s C o m m i s si o n u n d e r t h e c h a i rm a n sh i p o f
t h e H o n o u r a b l e Ju st i c e G o l i a t h t h e n f o u n d t h a t t h e r e w e re n o
m e ri t i n t h e c o m p l a i n t s a g a i n st J u d g e Tu c h t e n .
20

B u t si m i l a rl y, t h e re w a s n o t h i s c o m p l a i n t a g a i n st m e
a n d t h e v e ra c i t y o f t h e c o m p l a i n t C h a i r p e r s o n w a s t h a t t h e
communication

between

Judge

Makhubele

re g a r d e d a s p e r s o n a l a n d a s p ri vi l e g e d .

and

I,

sh e

That is what she

s a i d i n h e r co m p l a i n t .
A n d sh e w a s e xt r e m e l y u p se t b e c a u s e I h a ve p r o vi d e d
Page 39 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
t h e c o u rt w i t h t h i s s p e ci f i c m e s s a g e a n d sh e , i n h e r vi e w,
that was untoward.

That was not the manner in which she

thought

matter

that

the

is

going

to

be

dealt

with

n o t w i t h st a n d i n g e a r l i e r m e s s a g e s w h i c h a r e a l s o c a n v a s se d
a n d p r o vi d e d f o r i n m y r e p o rt w h i c h si n c e t h e i n c e p t i o n o f
o u r co m m u n i c a t i o n , s h e s e n t m e a W h a t sA p p a n d s h e s a i d t o
me:
“ F r a n c o i s, i t i s o f p a ra m o u n t i m p o r t a n ce t h a t w e a r e
t ra n s p a r e n t .
10

board.

We p l a y o p e n c a rd s .

We a re a b o v e

We d o n o t w a n t t o b e c o m e e m b r o i l i n a

si t u a t i o n , h e s a y s sh e s a y s o r, t h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g
u n e t h i c a l ”.
A n d t h a t i s a l so c o n t a i n e d i n t h i s.
c o m f o rt a b l e w i t h t h a t .

And I was very

Judge... ag uh, Chairperson when I

re c e i v e d t h e c o m p l a i n t . . . a g , l i ke a l l o f u s a re , y o u . . . y o u . . .
y o u a r e d i sa p p o i n t e d .
Uh, the complaint was filed in a Lever Arch file.

I think

i t w a s m o re t h a n a h u n d r e d , a h u n d r e d - a n d -f i f t y p a g e s a n d I
l i t e ra l l y h a d t o s i t a n d t o w o r k t h ro u g h t h i s b e c a u s e a l o t i s
20

a t st a k e .
Um, I am Deputy Chairperson of the Bar Council.
am

the

Chairperson

P r e t o ri a B a r.

of

the

Fi n a n ci a l

I a m a s e n i o r co u n s e l .

Committee

Um, I
of

the

I h a v e b e e n a ct i n g

v a r i o u s a s v a ri o u s t h i n g s i n P r e t o ri a .
U m , t h i s i s s e ri o u s a n d I p r e p a r e d a v e r y co m p re h e n si v e
Page 40 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
um,

answer

or

re s p o n s e

which

then

se r v e d

before

the

E t h i c a l . . . P r o f e s si o n a l a n d E t h i c a l C o m m i t t e e o f t h e P r e t o ri a
B a r C o u n ci l .
C h a i r p e r s o n , I b e l i e v e t h a t i n vi t a t i o n w a s e xt e n d e d t o
J u d g e M a k h u b e l e t o r e p l y t o t h e a l l e g a t i o n s.

M y. . . m y

re s p o n s e

55-pages

Chairperson

um,

was

a p p r o xi m a t e l y

b e ca u s e I r e a l i se d t h a t I h a v e g o t o n e o p p o rt u n i t y t o t e l l m y
w h o l e st o r y. E xa c t l y w h i c h I d i d .
U m , I b e l i e v e t h a t Ju d g e M a kh u b e l e t h e n d e ci d e d n o t t o
10

re p l y t o t h e a l l e g a t i o n s t h a t I m a d e a n d I w a s d o w n t h i s y e a r.
That

the

re c o m m e n d a t i o n

by

the

P r o f e s si o n a l

and

E t h i c a l C o m m i t t e e t o t h e b a r c o u n ci l w a s t h a t t h e y h a ve
t h o r o u g h l y i n v e st i g a t e d t h e c o m p l a i n t a n d t h e r e w a s n o u m , I
w a s n o t . . . I d i d n o t m a ke m y s e l f g u i l t y u m , t o w a r d s a n y u m ,
u n p r o f e s si o n a l o r u n e t h i c a l c o n d u ct .
A n d t h e n I r e ce i v e d a l e t t e r C h a i rp e r s o n f r o m t h e b a r
c o u n c i l o n t h e 2 2 n d o f M a y t h i s y e a r t h a t t h e b a r c o u n ci l h a s
a l s o d e ci d e d t o vi n d i c a t e m e f r o m t h e ch a r g e .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Thank

yo u

very

m u ch

Mr

B o t e s.

U h . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

...I think Mr Soni, he did not have to...

[ l a u g h s]
A D V S O N I S C : I . . . I . . . t h i s w a s e xp e ct e d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

To . . . t o l e s s. . . o f co u r s e . . . o f c o u r s e h e
Page 41 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
k n o w s e x a ct l y w h a t u h [ l a u g h s] w h a t t h e i s s u e s a r e .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s a n d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e . . . h e h a s b e e n ve r y i n v o l v e d . I . . . I
am...

o b vi o u sl y,

if

there

a re

something

that

you

want

t o . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . c o ve r o r cl a ri f y.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

B u t t h a t w a s q u i t e c o m p re h e n si v e .

Th a n k

y o u M r B o t e s.
ADV SONI SC: And... and I did not want to interrupt.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. N o , n o , n o .
A D V S O N I S C : W h i l e h e t o l d t h e w h o l e st o ry.
CHAIRPERSON:
c o m p r e h e n si v e .

No, it was fine.

I t i s. . . i t w a s q u i t e

I d o u b t i f I h a v e a n y q u e st i o n s b u t l e t m e

a l l o w y o u t o a s k i f t h e r e i s a n yt h i n g t o a s k.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s b u t i t i s m o r e h o u s e k e e p i n g f o r t h e

purposes of record.

N o w, y o u r u h , r e sp o n s e t o Ju d g e

M a k h u b e l e ’s c o m p l a i n t a g a i n st y o u u h , I h a v e n o t c a l l e d t h e
20

judge because at the time this happened, she was not a
judge although she had been appointed.

S o p e rh a p s I

should call her judge.
A D V B O T E S S C : C o rr e ct .
A D V S O N I S C : I s a t . . . i t st a rt s a t p a g e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

What... well, the appointment was to in
Page 42 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
a ct u a l f a ct t h e f o l l o w i n g ye a r.
A D V B O T E S S C : C o rr e ct .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o . . . s o t e ch n i c a l l y w h e n

s h e st a rt e d

c o m m u n i c a t i o n s u h , sh e w a s n o t a j u d g e y e t .
A D V S O N I S C : J a , I . . I a c c e p t t h a t C h a i r p e r so n .
CHAIRPERSON:
appointment.

She... she had been recommended for

She became a judge when the appointment

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
10

A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . t o o k e ff e ct .
A D V S O N I S C : To o k e ff e ct . Ye s, y e s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t

is

my

u n d e r st a n d i n g

of

h o w. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON: ...uh, how these things go.
A D V S O N I S C : I . . . I . . . I m u st a c c e p t t h a t u h - u h C h a i r p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
ADV SONI SC:
20

B u t i n a n a p p l i c a t i o n i n C a p e To w n , u n i t e

behind...
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
A D V S O N I S C : A n d t h a t i s t h e co m p l a i n t b e f o re t h e u h , u h ,
J u d i ci a l C o n d u ct C o m m i t t e e .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
ADV SONI SC:

S a yi n g t h a t a s s o o n a s t h e p r o n o u n c e m e n t
Page 43 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
is made, she becomes a judge.
C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s]
A D V S O N I S C : I . . . I . . . j u st m a k e t h e p o i n t C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V S O N I S C : A n d t h a t i s w h y . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

No, no, no.

U h , t h e y. . . u h , t h e y. . . i t

is fine. They have put that.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : We h a v e o u r o w n u n d e r st a n d i n g s.
10

A D V S O N I S C : [ l a u g h s] Ye s. Ye s, C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Uh, when uh... when I was appointed as an
a ct i n g j u d g e i n 1 9 9 7 , I t h i n k I g o t t h e l e t t e r o f a p p o i n t m e n t
u h , e a rl y i n J a n u a r y a n d m y a ct i n g a p p o i n t m e n t w a s t o st a rt
o n t h e 1 s t o f F e b ru a r y 1 9 9 7 .

Between the time when I got

t h e l e t t e r a n d t h e t i m e a n d t h e 1 s t o f F e b ru a ry, I d i d n o t g o
a r o u n d sa y i n g I a m j u d g e , a n a ct i n g j u d g e .
A D V S O N I S C : J a . [ l a u g h s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s]
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. [ l a u g h s]
20

CHAIRPERSON:

And my colleagues in the profession did

n o t st a rt ca l l i n g m e a j u d g e .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. [ l a u g h s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s] B u t u m , I a m j u st s a yi n g h o w. . .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I u n d e r st a n d i t . Ye s.
Page 44 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
A D V S O N I S C : U h , M r B o t e s. S o y o u . . . y o u h a ve f i l e d . . . u h ,
y o u m a d e t h i s a ff i d a vi t u h , a t t h e re q u e st o f M r O e l l e rm a n
f ro m t h e C o m m i s s i o n o n t h e 1 4 t h o f O ct o b e r.
A D V B O T E S S C : C o rr e ct C h a i r p e r s o n .
A D V S O N I S C : N o w, i t . . . u h , a g a i n , i t i s n o t t o t e st a n yt h i n g
t h e r e b u t t o t h e a ff i d a vi t y o u a t t a c h e d y o u r r e s p o n s e t o t h e
complaint by Judge Makhubele and that is marked X. Is that
c o r r e ct ?
A D V B O T E S S C : T h a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i rp e r s o n .
10

ADV SONI SC:

And then to that complaint you also... ah,

s o r r y t o t h a t re s p o n se , y o u a l s o a t t a c h e d a f e w d o c u m e n t s.
A D V B O T E S S C : T h a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i rp e r s o n .
ADV SONI SC:
letter that

One document that you attached is this

co n t a i n s t h e

communication that

b e ca m e t h e

s o u r c e o f co n t r o v e r s y i f I c a n p u t i t t h a t w a y.
ADV BOTES SC:

T h a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i r p e r s o n .

That is the

l e t t e r. . . [ i n t e r ve n e s ]
A D V S O N I S C : O n e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V B O T E S S C : . . . d a t e d 8 M a r ch 2 0 1 8 . Ye s.
20

ADV

SONI

SC:

Ye s.

So

this

is

the

letter

on

the

8 t h o f M a r c h . T h i s w a s w ri t t e n b y y o u r a t t o r n e y b u t u h , u h , I
j u st w a n t t o p o i n t o u t t h a t Ju d g e M a k h u b e l e t a k e s o ff e n ce o r
she is unhappy that you communicated it to your attorney
a n d I a m g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h t h a t i n a m o m e n t b u t I j u st w a n t
t o p u t i n t o p e r s p e ct i v e .
Page 45 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
T h a t i s t h e i m p o rt a n c e o f t h i s l e t t e r.

Wo u l d t h a t b e

c o r r e ct ?
ADV

BOTES

SC:

Th a t

is

how

I

also

u n d e r st a n d

it

Chairperson.
ADV SONI SC:

A n d t h e n y o u a l s o a n n e x e d a s B t h e r e p o rt

o f t h e l i q u i d a t o r.
A D V B O T E S S C : N o , t h a t i s t h e r e p o rt o f t h e C o m m i s si o n e r.
A D V S O N I S C : O h , so r ry. T h e C o m m i s si o n e r. S o rr y.
A D V B O T E S S C : Ye s.
10

A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
A D V B O T E S S C : H e h a d t o re p o rt t o t h e m a st e r o f t h e h i g h
c o u rt .

W h a t t h e u h , st a t u s o f t h e i n q u i r y w a s b e c a u s e t h e

i n q u i r y w a s t h e n p o st p o n e d si n e d i e o n t h e l a st d a y.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. N o w i n r e g a r d t o t h i s d o c u m e n t . I n h e r
c o m m u n i c a t i o n s i n t e r n a l l y t o t h e P R A S A’s l e g a l t e a m , J u d g e
Makhubele says that this is the document that persuaded her
t h a t P R A S A h a s n o d e f e n c e . I a m . . . I a m j u st p l a ci n g t h a t o n
re c o r d .
But did you give her this document before she made up
20

her mind.

I think you have met on the 14th of November at

the PRASA building.
ADV BOTES SC:

Uh, Chairperson, the reason why this was

p r o vi d e d t o J u d g e M a k h u b e l e o n t h a t v e r y f i r st m e e t i n g , y o u
w i l l se e t h a t i f y o u t u r n t o A n n e x u r e B , i f y o u t u r n t h e p a g e
a n d y o u s e e t h e r e i s a t w o . T h a t i s m y h a n d w ri t i n g . T h a t i s
Page 46 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
m y. . . I p a g i n a t e d t h e w h o l e b u n d l e .
ADV SONI SC: Oh, I see.
ADV BOTES SC:

A n d i t st a rt e d o n p a g e 1 a n d t h i s w a s t h e

f i r st d o c u m e n t i n t h i s b u n d l e o f . . . o f . . . o f u m , d o c u m e n t s
w h i c h I p ro v i d e d J u d g e M a k h u b e l e w i t h w h e n I s a w h e r f o r
t h e f i r st t i m e a t P R A S A’s o ff i ce , a n d a t t a c h e d t o t h i s, w a s
the

um,

pleadings

in

the

va ri o u s

matters

which

were

pending.
ADV SONI SC:
10

A n d . . . a n d t h e n y o u a t t a ch e d a s C t h e . . . a

f u rt h e r c o m m u n i c a t i o n b y J u d g e M a k h u b e l e t o y o u a n d t h i s i s
a . . . a W h a t sA p p m e s s a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s c o r r e ct C h a i rp e r s o n .
A D V S O N I S C : A n d w h a t i s t h e r e l e v a n c e o f t h i s?
ADV BOTES SC:
d e m o n st r a t e

that

Th e r e l e v a n c e o f t h i s d o c u m e n t w a s t o
all

communication

between

Judge

M a k h u b e l e a n d I w e re o p e n , w e r e t ra n s p a re n t a n d t h e r e w a s
no

s u g g e st i o n

by

either

her

or

myself

that

we

are

c o m m u n i c a t i n g w i t h i n a p ri vi l e g e d s p a ce .
In
20

other

w o r d s,

we

should

not

d i s cl o s e

our

c o m m u n i c a t i o n s t o a n y t h i r d p a rt i e s, e sp e ci a l l y n o t b r i n g i t
i n t o t h e o p e n p u b l i c d o m a i n b e c a u se i t i s b e t w e e n t w o
c o u n s e l w h o c o m m u n i c a t e a n d a t t e n d , a n d m a y I a d d , a v e r y,
v e r y s e ri o u s a t t e m p t t o s e t t l e a l l t h e s e m a t t e r s.
A n d I t o o k i t u p o n m y s e l f f r o m t h e f i r st d a y t h a t w e h a v e
c o m m u n i c a t e d w i t h e a c h o t h e r, t o s h a r e C h a i r p e r so n , e a c h
Page 47 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
a n d e ve r y W h a t s A p p , e a c h a n d e v e r y e m a i l , e a c h a n d e v e r y
S MS t o Mr M a t h o p o , t o M r C r o u se a n d a l s o t o t h o s e u m , w h o
t h e n f o rm e d o f o u r t e a m .
N o t h i n g w a s s w e p t u n d e r t h e ca r p e t .

Nothing was um,

w a s. . . w a s k e p t i n se c r e cy. E v e r yt h i n g w a s p r o p e rl y u m , a n d
t ra n s p a r e n t l y d i s c l o s e d t o t h o se c o n c e r n e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Soni?
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s ?
CHAIRPERSON:
10

W h e n M r B o t e s w a s g i vi n g e vi d e n c e , I d i d

n o t h a v e t o l o o k a t d o cu m e n t s. U h , I f o cu s e d o n l i st e n i n g t o
him.

U h , n o w I h a v e t o l o o k a t t h e m b e c a u se y o u a re

re f e rr i n g t o t h i s.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

U h , j u st t e l l m e a g a i n w h e r e y o u a r e h o w

this works?
ADV SONI SC: Oh.
CHAIRPERSON: Page?
A D V B O T E S S C : I t i s p a g e 4 5 C h a i rp e r s o n , S S 1 7 .
CHAIRPERSON: Uh...
20

ADV BOTES SC: Page 45.
CHAIRPERSON: Page 45. Uh... oh, is that the one that has
got a “see”?
A D V S O N I S C : T h a t i s. . . t h a t i s t h e o n e C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
ADV BOTES SC:

T h a t i s “ s e e ”.

Ja , t h a t w a s. . . t h a t i s o n l y

Page 48 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
t o se e t o m y r e s p o n se . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV BOTES SC: ...to the bar council.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV BOTES SC:

T h a t i s w h e r e J u d g e M a k h u b e l e sa i d t o

me:
“I w o u l d f o r w a r d t h e l e t t e r t o P R A S A w i t h i n st r u ct i o n s
to enquire from Mogashoa if he received this and to
forward
10

same

t ra n s p a r e n t .

asap.

Our

i n st r u ct i o n s

were

Hence, I have forwarded a copy to you.

T h e i n t e n t i o n w a s t o h a v e a n o p e n d i s c u s si o n w i t h
y o u a n d o u r a t t o r n e y s b u t d u e t o y o u r u n a v a i l a b i l i t y,
w e i n st r u ct e d h i m t o e n g a g e w i t h y o u r cl i e n t s. I t h i n k
t h e c o r r e ct n e s s o f t h e c a l c u l a t i o n o f i n t e r e st w i l l b e
verified

by

PRASA

f i n a n ce .

The

p ri n ci p l e

is

a c c e p t a b l e a n d t h o s e w e r e t h e i n st r u ct i o n s ”.
T h e . . . t h e . . . o r t h e s u g g e st i o n C h a i rp e r s o n t h a t w a s. . .
h o w w e u n d e r st o o d i t f r o m P R A S A’s l e g a l t e a m i s t h a t t h e
B o a rd o f P R A S A w a s n o t a w a re o f w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g h e r e .
20

T h i s so m e b o d y w a s o n h i s o r h e r o w n f ro l i c a n d t h e l e g a l
d e p a rt m e n t w a s k e p t i n t h e d a r k.

So was the other um,

m e m b e r s o f P R A S A’s b o a r d a l s o ke p t i n t h e d a r k.
A n d w h y I d e ci d e d t o a t t a c h e d t h i s d o cu m e n t t o . . . t o u m ,
my

r e sp o n s e

to

the

bar

c o u n ci l .

Mr

Mogashoa

in

correspondence took exception to one communication that I
Page 49 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
h a ve f o r w a r d e d t o h i m .
A n d I h a ve a l l u d e d t o i t a l i t t l e b i t e a rl i e r o n.

Yo u w i l l

re c a l l t h a t I t e st i f i e d t h a t M r M o g a s h o a t e n d e r e d t o p a y t h e
c a p i t a l o f t h e t h r e e o r t h e f o u r m a t t e r s.
I d i d . . . a n d h e . . . h e d i r e ct e d a n e m a i l t o m e t o t h a t e ff e ct
a n d I r e sp o n d e d a n d I w a s n a u g h t y b e ca u s e I sa i d t o h i m
“n o , t h a t i s n o t y o u r i n st r u ct i o n s.

Yo u r i n st r u ct i o n s a r e t o

t e n d e r c a p i t a l p l u s i n t e r e st ”.
A n d h e t h e n s a i d t o m e “b u t h o w d o yo u k n o w w h a t m y
10

i n st r u ct i o n s a r e ? ” I sa y, “ We l l , t h e r e i s t h e e m a i l . I re c e i v e d
t h e . . . t h e c h a i r p e r s o n w h e n s h e d e s p a t ch e d y o u r i n st r u ct i o n s
t o yo u , s h e co p i e d m e i n t o i t ”.
CHAIRPERSON:

So, of course, you... you would uh, uh,

[ l a u g h s] y o u w o u l d k n o w t h a t u h , i t . . . i t . . . i t w o u l d b e q u i t e
s u r p ri si n g t o t h e a t t o r n e y o n t h e o t h e r s i d e i f h e w a s
u n a w a r e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V B O T E S S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

. . . o f t h e co m m u n i c a t i o n .

S o h o w. . . h o w. . .

h o w d o m y o p p o n e n t s k n o w w h a t m y i n st ru ct i o n s a re ?
20

But

u h . . . b u t . . . b u t w h a t y o u a r e s a yi n g a n d w i t h r e f e r e n c e t o t h i s
u h , e m a i l o r w a s i t y o u r e m a i l . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
A D V B O T E S S C : T h e W h a t sA p p C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t sA p p . . . . W h a t sA p p m e s s a g e .
A D V B O T E S S C : T h e W h a t sA p p C h a i rp e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Is

yo u . . .

you

Page 50 of 253

are

putting

it

up

to

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
s u b st a n t i a t e

what

you

were

sa yi n g ,

n a m e l y,

your

c o m m u n i c a t i o n s w i t h t h e c h a i r p e r so n o f t h e b o a rd w e r e
t ra n s p a r e n t .

We r e m e a n t t o b e o p e n a n d t r a n s p a r e n t a n d

t h a t i s w h y y o u f e l t q u i t e f r e e t o s a y t o m i st e r. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
ADV BOTES SC: Mr Mogashoa.
CHAIRPERSON:

. . . M o g a s h o a t h a t t h i s. . . t h o s e a re n o t yo u r

i n st r u ct i o n s b e c a u s e I k n o w y o u r. . . w h a t y o u r i n st ru ct i o n s
a n d u h , t h e c h a i r p e r s o n o f t h e b o a rd d i d n o t i n t u r n t h a t l i k e
keep it secret.
10

ADV BOTES SC:

C h a i r p e r s o n , q u i t e co r re ct l y.

I f y o u j u st

turn the page to Annexure D on page 46?
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
ADV BOTES SC:
d e sp a t c h e d

to

Mr

That is the... the... the letter that was
M o g a sh o a

by

the

G ro u p

Company

Secretary of PRASA at the time.

Um, Chairperson, you will

find that at the foot of page 48.

I t w a s si g n e d b y L i n d i k a ya

Zide,

Group

Company

Secretary

on

the

15th of December 2017.
I was copied in this document. That is how I got hold of
20

it.
had

A n d t h i s i s a l s o t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t f o r m p a rt o f w h e n w e
the

four

unopposed

motions

um,

set

down

on

the

9 t h o f M a r c h 2 0 1 8 b e f o r e u h , t h e H o n o u r a b l e J u st i ce H o l l a n d M u t e r.
I t o o k. . . I h a d t h i s d o c u m e n t i n m y p o s s e s si o n a n d I
g a ve i t t o m y o p p o n e n t s. I s a i d t o t h e m :
Page 51 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
“There

is

the

i n st r u ct i o n .

Yo u

m u st

v e ri f y

the

c o r r e ct n e s s o f t h i s b e c a u s e t h i s i s n o t s e n t u n d e r t h e
h a n d o f t h e c h a i rp e r s o n ”.
I

got

the

i m p r e s si o n ,

ri g h t

or

re p r e s e n t e d t h e b o a r d u m , re s o l u t i o n .

wrong,

is

that

that

T h a t i s t h e r e a so n i t

w a s si g n e d b y t h e G r o u p C o m p a n y S e cr e t a ry.

B u t I co u l d

n o t t a k e i t f u rt h e r C h a i r p e r s o n .
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Mr Botes, just on that point …[intervenes]
I a m s o r r y, M r S o n i , I s e e w e a r e a t h a l f

past – actually nearly twenty five to twelve.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , I a m s o s o r r y.
We are long past quarter past eleven but

what is important is how much more time do you need with
Mr Botes?
ADV SONI SC:

I am going to need at least 15 minutes to

be fair to Judge Makhubele’s side.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .
That I can put what – she has now

responded by way of affidavit.
20

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .
And I just need to put that …[intervenes]
To p u t h e r s i d e o f t h a t , j a .
And then, of course, her affidavit will

com e at a different time.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .
Page 52 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
ADV SONI SC:

But I did undertake to her that I will put

her version to Mr Botes for him to respond.
CHAIRPERSON:

No,

no,

that

is

fine.

My

own

understanding is there seems to be very – the issue - ,
d i s p u t e s w h i c h i s v e r y n a r r o w, v e r y l i m i t e d .
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Limited.
Ja.
In fact, I could do it in about five or ten

minutes, Chairperson.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV SONI SC:

And it may be better because then you

can release Mr Botes for one.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .
But then we start with something new

when we come back.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

No, no, that is fine, but I think let

u s t a k e t h e t e a b r e a k n o w.

Let us make it 15.

I was

thinking of making it ten but we might rush too much.

15

minutes, so we will resume at ten to twelve.
20

ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

As you please.
And then with the aim that we should

finish about 12 o’clock, or five past twelve or thereabouts.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
O k a y, w e a d j o u r n .

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
Page 53 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, l e t u s p r o c e e d .

Put on your mic,

Mr Soni.
ADV SONI SC:

S o r r y, C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

I do not know why you always forget.
I a m s o r r y.

Annexure D to your response

to Judge Makhubele’s complaint.

Where did you get it

from?
ADV BOTES SC:
10

C h a i r p e r s o n , I g o t t h i s – s o r r y, p a g e 4 6 ,

Chairperson, page 46.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV BOTES SC:

4 6 , o k a y.
Ye s .

This document I have received

electronically via email from Judge Makhubele.
ADV SONI SC:

That was about the time that the letter

w a s w r i t t e n w h i c h w o u l d b e a r o u n d t h e 1 5 O c t o b e r.
ADV BOTES SC:

Chairperson, it was either 15 December

2 0 1 7 , i t w a s e i t h e r t h e s a m e d a y o r t h e d a y t h e r e a f t e r.
J u s t b e m i n d f u l , t h e 1 6 t h w a s a p u b l i c h o l i d a y.

I have

every reason to believe I received it on the 15th.
20

ADV SONI SC:

A n d t h e n a n n e x u r e s E , F, G a n d H a r e i n

fact the awards, the arbitration awards issued by Judge
Brand.
ADV BOTES SC:
ADV SONI SC:

Quite correct, Chairperson.
Now I take it these are all the documents

– the only documents you submitted to the Bar Council.
Page 54 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
ADV BOTES SC:

This was – these documents and my

response were the only documents that I have provided the
Bar Council with, quite correct, Chairperson.
ADV SONI SC:

And the Bar Council then effectively

exonerated you, they said that there was no merit in Judge
Makhubele’s com plaint against you.
ADV BOTES SC:

Just before that, how our internal Bar

affairs work, once there is a complaint, especially if it is a
complaint from a judge or minister that is referred to, the
10

Professional Ethical Committee,

Chairperson, if it is a

c o m p l a i n t a g a i n s t t h e s e n i o r m e m b e r, w h a t w e n o r m a l l y d o
is we constitute a committee comprising of more than one
senior member to investigate and to have regard to all the
evidence, so to speak.

In this specific instance there was

more than one silk who investigated it, I do not know who
comprised of the entire committee but I was informed
subsequently

that

the

decision

of

that

committee

was

unanimous in to make recommendation to the Bar Council
because the subcommittee only make a recommendation to
20

the

Bar

Council

and

the

Bar

Council

can

still

decide

whether it accepts that recommendation or not because the
same papers serves before the Bar Council and that is
what emanated in the letter of the 22 May 2020 that I was
exonerated by the committee and by the Bar Council.
ADV SONI SC:

Chairperson, just for the record that letter
Page 55 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
from the Bar Council appears at page 62, Chairperson.
ADV BOTES SC:

That is the last letter in this bundle,

quite correct, that is page 62.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV

SONI

Ye s , I s e e i t , t h a n k y o u .

SC:

Now

after

you

submitted

your

first

affidavit you were asked to make a further affidavit and
that is the second affidavit that you have already referred
t o w h i c h y o u m a d e o n t h e 2 0 M a y t h i s y e a r.
ADV BOTES SC:
10

ADV SONI SC:

That is quite correct, Chairperson.
Now I just want to confirm again that what

is contained in the two affidavits you made is true and
correct.
ADV

BOTES

SC:

Ye s ,

Chairperson,

I

take

my

r e s p o n s i b i l i t y a n d m y d u t y, n o t o n l y a s a n o f f i c e r o f c o u r t ,
but also as a citizen of the Republic of South Africa
extremely – it is important for me that we should get rid of
w h a t s h o u l d n o t – w h a t i s n o t s u p p o s e d t o b e i n s o c i e t y, s o
I am a very serious person if it comes to the values
enshrined not only in the Constitution but also in all the
20

legislation.
ADV SONI SC:
part.

N o w, M r B o t e s , I w a n t t o g e t t o t h e l a s t

In both the affidavits you refer to your response to

Judge Makhubele’s complaint.
ADV BOTES SC:
ADV SONI SC:

Correct, Chairperson.
And you confirm the correctness of what is
Page 56 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
contained in the response as well.
ADV

BOTES

SC:

Unconditionally

and

i r r e v o c a b l y,

Chairperson.
ADV SONI SC:

I just want to now come to the nub of the

dispute between you and Judge Makhubele as contained in
her affidavit. There are two areas of dispute and I will just
put them to you.
The first is, she says that it is not you who initiated
– it is not she who initiated the communication in relation
10

to the Siyaya matters but it is you.
N o w y o u d e a l w i t h t h a t i n p a r a g r a p h 11 o f y o u r
affidavit and you have already given evidence on that.
CHAIRPERSON:

I must just check something, Mr Soni,

you might have read her affidavit much m ore thoroughly
than I did. At some stage when I was reading it, I was not
sure whether she comes out categorically that Mr Botes
initiated the discussion.

I seem to get the impression that

she was not committing herself but she was saying I want a
forensic investigation to be done on my cell phone as well
20

to determine who initiated without her saying he initiated
or I initiated. I know that what I am certainly true in regard
to maybe other things but I am not sure.

So I am just

checking whether it is something that you had a look at
carefully that she does say he initiated.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .
Page 57 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

But if you are sure that is fine.
Mr Chairperson, let me – I perhaps looked

at the affidavit, if I may put, jaundiced eyes, because it
was

informed

by

my

conversation

with

h e r.

In

my

c o n v e r s a t i o n s w i t h h e r.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
10

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Ja.
All my conversations.
Ye s , s h e i s q u i t e c l e a r.
She has – she is adamant.
O h , o k a y.
That that is the nub of the dispute.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, o k a y, n o , t h a t i s f i n e .

I mean,

when I was looking at it, I was saying – at least, on the
impression that I had, I was saying well, she needs to put
up her version first.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s .
So that we know if there is a dispute.
Ye s .
There is an issue, before we can have

an inference in this stage because there is no point, she
having a forensic investigation if there is no issue.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
Or no dispute on the issue.

put it to Mr Botes because …[intervenes]
ADV SONI SC:

I will certainly put it.
Page 58 of 253

But I think

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Ja.
And it is just for his – so that when she

comes, we can say that we have put it to Mr Botes.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s , y e s .
Mr Botes, you have heard that and I just

w a n t t o s a y t o y o u i n p a r a g r a p h 11 y o u r e s p o n d t o w h a t
you point out in paragraph 10, namely her allegation that it
was the liquidators who approached her through yourself
around the second week of November in regard to this
10

dispute and what is your reaction to that? And I ask purely
for the – I know what your evidence was but I am just
asking as a response.
ADV BOTES SC:

Chairperson, to put Mr Soni’s statement

to me in perspective, that is what one of the complaints
were

that

allegation.

Judge

Makhubele

laid

and

that

was

the

M a y I j u s t d i r e c t y o u r a t t e n t i o n t o p a g e 11 o f

the bundle and that is paragraph 10 of my response in
which I verbatim clarified what Judge Makhubele said in
paragraph 9.1, Chairperson, of her statement.
20

That was

the complaint that she laid, she says:
“The liquidators approached me (first through Adv
Botes SC on or about the second week of November
2017) followed by a letter (towards the end of the
month) to intervene in a dispute that had ensued
with regard to whether there was a need to proceed
Page 59 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
t o a r b i t r a t i o n i n v i e w o f t h e e v i d e n c e a t t h e i n q u i r y. ”
And premised on that, Chairperson, I then put the correct
f a c t s i n t o p e r s p e c t i v e i n p a r a g r a p h 11 o f t h i s d o c u m e n t .
To a n s w e r y o u r q u e s t i o n , A d v S o n i , o n e , I w a s
t o t a l l y, t o t a l l y u n a w a r e o f t h e f a c t t h a t J u d g e M a k h u b e l e
was at PRASA.
she

was

I laboured under the apprehension that

recommended

by

the

Judicial

Services

Commission and that her appointment was imminent as a
J u d g e . O n e . T h a t i s t h e f i r s t a s p e c t t h a t I w a n t t o c l a r i f y.
10

A n d s e c o n d l y, I w i l l n e v e r i n m y l i f e , e s p e c i a l l y n o t
in the light of the various judgments of the SCA pertaining
to various applications for advocates whose names were
removed from the roll.
to mind.

The name of Adv Seth Nthai comes

I will never approach my opponent’s client in

order to solicit some of a settlement or some sort of
intervention, Chairperson.
I think that is the biggest atrocity in the legal
fraternity that one can come across and that is when –
especially when senior counsel decides well, I am going to
20

shoot over the heads of everybody and I am going to the
c l i e n t d i r e c t l y.
No, Chairperson, the answer to this dispute, this
crisp issue, is simple and straightforward, you take my
itemised billing – and may I add, Chairperson, I do not
have a landline.

I do not practice in my office from a
Page 60 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
landline, I do not use a landline, I have taken my landline
out years ago because it just distracts you.

If attorneys

want to get hold of me it is on my cell phone or on my
iPad, so there is no suggestion that I could have phoned
her on the landline.

I only use my cellular telephone, that

is all I use, to take my itemised billing, to take her itemised
billing for the month of November 2017 to compare it.

It

w i l l b e a m a t t e r r e s i p s a l o q u i t u r.
ADV SONI SC:
10

Because that will tell you who initiated the

call.
ADV BOTES SC:
ADV SONI SC:
ADV BOTES SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Of course it will.
And that will put an end to that.
Common sense and logic dictate that.
Ja.

I wonder whether any forensic

investigation is needed to establish that, but …[intervenes]
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

ADV SONI SC:

It does not look like, Chairperson.
Ye s , y e s .
As Mr Botes correctly points out.
Ja.
It is simply looking at receives calls and

calls made.
CHAIRPERSON:

I mean, if she accepts that the first

discussion that she had with Mr Botes on the matter was
on the phone, then – and if she accepts that Mr Botes
could not have spoken from a landline then he could only
Page 61 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
have spoken to her on his cell phone so therefore Mr Botes
says

here

is

my

cell

phone,

whoever

wants

to

check

whether there was any call I made to her between that time
and that time, here is the phone.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

And then she can provide her own to

s a y, y o u k n o w, l e t u s h a v e a l o o k .
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:
10

investigation.

I am not sure that you need a forensic

But again, as far as this Commission is

concerned, on the face of it there does not appear to be an
important issue to the Commission but she might persuade
me

when

she

gets

a

chance

that

there

is

something

r e l e v a n t i n r e g a r d t o w h o i n i t i a t e d . O k a y, a l r i g h t , y e s .
ADV SONI SC:

The second issue and in a sense, Mr

Botes, it seems to be tied to the first issue, is that you say
she initiated the call, you congratulated her and it is at
that time that she pointed out the circumstances or the
p u r p o s e o f h e r a p p o i n t m e n t a s C h a i r p e r s o n o f P R A S A’ s
20

interim board.
ADV BOTES SC:

Correct, Chairperson, as I have alluded

t o e a r l i e r, I w a s s u r p r i s e d t h a t s h e w a s d e p l o y e d a s i n t e r n
o r C h a i r p e r s o n o f P R A S A’ s i n t e r i m b o a r d a n d I s p e c i f i c a l l y
asked

her

whether

–

what

the

reason

was

for

that

deployment because it is not ordinarily done in that fashion
Page 62 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
and she then confirmed to me that she was deployed by
the former President so as to clean up the mess and to
sort the mess out and what I understood, Chairperson, and
she also said to me there was numerous litigation and
matters that were outstanding and I got the impression she
wanted to wrap all of it up and see which of the matters
can she dispose of, which there is really no real disputes
or there is no aspects which should go to trial. And the
others, to streamline it so to make them trial ready or not.
10

That

is

the

impression

that

I

got.

But

we

have

not

discussed that.
ADV SONI SC:

Can I – and to get past this point, Mr

B o t e s , c a n I t a k e i t w h a t y o u r e c o r d e d a t p a r a g r a p h 11 i n
y o u r r e s p o n s e , t h a t i s 11 – t h e w h o l e o f p a r a g r a p h 11 i s
what really happened and we can accept that that is your
version.
ADV

BOTES

irrevocably

SC:

and

Chairperson,

u n c o n d i t i o n a l l y,

you

yes,

can
that

accept
is

it

how

it

question

of

transpired.
20

ADV

SONI

SC:

Now

in

response

the

deployment – so she said to you I have been deployed by
former President Zuma.

She may not have used the word

former President Zuma.
ADV BOTES SC:
ADV SONI SC:

Right.
He was not former at that time.
Page 63 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
ADV BOTES SC:

N o , s h e u s e d t h e w o r d s – I r e m e m b e r,

recall the words, I was deployed by the President.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well, I also wanted to ask on that but I

think you have made it quite clear because she denies that
and the actual use of the term deployed, is that the term
she used or is it your term of – that you used in terms of
what you understood her to be saying?

Do you recall

whether she used that term or she may have used another
terminology but you understood it to be deployment?
10

ADV

BOTES

SC:

Chairperson,

I

cannot

recall

if

specifically the word deployed was used, it was definitely
made – I was definitely informed by Judge Makhubele that
the purpose of her presence at the interim board of PRASA
was at the insistence of the President and that her function
and her role was to clean up the mess and to sort things
out.
In Afrikaans they say nuwe besems vee skoon and
that is the impression that I got.

This was new broom and

she had to clean up the stage.
20

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

O k a y.
So this is where, Chairperson, I am going

to – I have read her affidavit and it does not seem as if she
says categorically she did not say this but what she say is,
I do not know Mr Zuma and so on.

But I am going to put

two versions to you , Mr Botes, just for the purposes of not
Page 64 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
having to recall him.
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no, that is fine.

My understanding

of her affidavit – but again, one might need to doublecheck and you can ask questions to Mr Botes on your own
understanding

of

Judge

Makhubele’s

affidavit.

My

impression was that she was denying that she told Mr
Botes that she had been deployed by President Zuma. And
that is one.
And two, she certainly did say she had never met
10

former

President

Zuma

before

her

appointment

to

the

PRASA, I think, but she does say subsequently and in 2019
she

was

function

within
at

the

the

presence

University

of

of

President

Limpopo

in

Zuma
a

at

a

graduation

ceremony or something.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
But I think she says she had never

spoken to him or something like that.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s , y e s , y e s .
So but put it as you understand it. I was

not sure whether she was denying using the word deployed
as opposed to appointed but she does she was appointed
b y t h e m i n i s t e r.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

That is right, she does.
Ye s .

So put it the best way you can to

put her version.
Page 65 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
ADV SONI SC:

Mr Botes, she will come and explain but I

just want to put two possibilities to you.

She seems to say

at one level that she was not appointed or deployed by the
President, that she had never spoken to him.

Now by

implication she seems to be saying that she did not tell
you. What is your response to that?
ADV BOTES SC:
read

Judge

unconditionally
10

F i r s t o f a l l , M r C o m m i s s i o n e r, I d i d n o t
Makhubele’s
that

she

affidavit,

informed

me

I

confirmed

that

she

was

d e p l o y e d o r a p p o i n t e d a s P R A S A’ s – a s t h e C h a i r p e r s o n o f
P R A S A’ s

interim

board

by

the

President,

not

by

the

m i n i s t e r.
ADV SONI SC:

And she gave you at that time the purpose

of that appointment/deployment.
ADV BOTES SC:

T h a t i s w h a t a p p e a r s i n p a r a g r a p h 11 o f

my response to the Bar Council, yes.
ADV SONI SC:

Now she also seems to say that she did

not mention President Zuma in the conversation. I am – as
I s a y, I a m n o t e n t i r e l y s u r e , b u t w h a t e v e r h e r v e r s i o n i s I
20

would like you to sort of respond to all possibilities as
appears from the …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Well, I am sure the answer has been

given.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

It has, no sure.
Ja, ja.
Page 66 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
ADV SONI SC:

F i n a l l y, M r B o t e s , I j u s t w a n t y o u , i n

fairness to you, because she is likely to come and make
this allegation.

She says in her affidavit that in 2018 you

tried to approach her to resolve a dispute that Siyangena
had with PRASA. Can you recall that?
ADV BOTES SC:
Christmas.

Mr

Ye s , I c a n , i t w a s s h o r t l y b e f o r e
Johan

Crouse,

who

was

a t t o r n e y s t o g e t h e r w i t h M r Ts h e p o M a t h o p o .

one

of

the

They were

also involved in a separate dispute, Chairperson, where
10

S i y a n g e n a f e a t u r e d . S e n i o r c o u n s e l d e a l s w i t h t h a t m a t t e r,
I have got no idea what that matter consist of.

Judge

Makhubele is hundred percent correct, during one of our
conversations I mentioned to her that I spoke to Johan
Crouse and he mentioned to me that the Siyangena matter
– a p p a r e n t l y, M r C h a i r p e r s o n , I h a v e n o t s e e n t h e p a p e r s
or the documents, I think the quantum exceeds R1 billion.
They asked me – and in the light of the effective manner
that we were able to settle Siyaya, I mean it was in the
open public domain that this – there was not one shot fired
20

a n d w e s e t t l e d i t v e r y, v e r y e a s y, s o t o s p e a k .
And Mr Johan Crouse did approach me and he said
to me that the manner in which this matter with Siyaya was
settled

reached

the

ears

matters against PRASA.

of

other

litigants

who

have

It seems that you and Judge

Makhubele is on the same – you are on the same line and
Page 67 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
you are singing from the same hymn book, what will your
attitude or your response be if we engage you, Botes, in
that other matter as well?

Surely it will also assist the

parties to come to a settlement.
A n d y e s , I d i d m e n t i o n i t t o h e r. I s a i d t o h e r, N a n a ,
I believe that there is also pending litigation between
PRASA and Siyangena, what is happening there because I
did not know what has happened there and her response
was, that is a matter which is much more complicated than
10

what we are dealing with, there is – that quantum is
something else and we simply did not pursue it.
ADV SONI SC:

She – just again for context, she puts it

on the basis that she is saying because you initiated the
Siyangena
Siyaya.

with

her

you

must

have

also

initiated

the

That is what her affidavit – because I will just put

that so that it is not out of context.
She is saying I am mentioning the question of Mr
B o t e s ’ a p p r o a c h t o m e t o s e t t l e t h i s S i y a n g e n a m a t t e r, s h e
says I am mentioning all this as a basis to rebut the
20

allegation that I initiated the settlement of Siyaya claims
and that I told Adv Botes that I have been deployed to
settle the matters. I just put that to you.
ADV

BOTES

SC:

Chairperson,

the

attorneys

for

Siyangena, Mr Gert van der Merwe, did approach me.

He

phoned me and he asked me whether him and his client
Page 68 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
can – I think it is Mr Mario Ferreira, make an appointment
with me so I can becom e involved in that matter ’s counsel
as well.

I declined, I said Gert, listen, Nic Maritz SC,

Werner Lüderitz SC, that is a big, big heavy silk team that
you guys have on board. There was a review application, I
understood, Chairperson, that exceeds 3000 pages and
that they approached the Deputy Judge President for the
allocation of a special court to deal with it and I did not at
the time had the appetite to concentrate on a matter of that
10

magnitude.
The counsel that was appointed at that stage I think
i s s o m e o f t h e b e s t l e g a l m i n d s t h a t m o n e y c a n b u y.

So

no, I did not pursue it at all.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV SONI SC:

Just finally on that point and perhaps in

terms of your evidence, Mr Botes, she says that in regard
t o t h i s , i n J a n u a r y 2 0 1 8 y o u s e n t h e r l e t t e r. C a n y o u r e c a l l
that?
ADV BOTES SC:
20

No, Chairperson, I did not send any

letters, I saw that that was something that was mentioned.
If I did communicate, and that is my style, I communicate
very

often

on

WhatsApp

and

SMS

for

one

reason,

Chairperson, you have a paper trail.
And

s e c o n d l y,

Mogashoa via email.

yes,

I

did

communicate

with

Mr

There was a lot of emails that was
Page 69 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
exchanged between us.

All explained – and the one email

there and the reason being, Chairperson, one of the –
there was a postponement of the arbitration and then a
dispute ensued, who is liable for the costs occasioned by
the postponement?

And Judge Brand did not want to hear

submissions on it.
My

proposal

arbitration.

Mr

was

that

Mogashoa’s

it

should

client

be

cost

insisted

in

the

that

the

liquidated company should pay the cost and that is actually
10

where the correspondence ensued.
I then sent Mr Mogashoa a very harsh-worded email
and I said to him Madimpe but that is not what transpired,
these are the facts and this is what transpired because he
started communicating with me directly via email and all of
that culminated and they filed heads, we filed heads of
argument.

At the end Judge Brand said he could not – he

cannot determine who is at fault and I think costs were –
the award was each party to pay its own costs.
So to answer your – the statement or what you put
20

to me, Mr Soni, no, I did not initiate, I did not write letters
it is not my function, my authority or my – I do not have
locus standi to write letters.

Letters were exchanged

between Mr Mathopo and there are various letters and also
Mr Crouse. I did not write letters, no.
ADV SONI SC:

Chairperson, those are the questions.
Page 70 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:
much,

Mr

Thank you very much.

Botes,

for

coming

to

give

Thank you very
evidence,

we

appreciate it and you are excused.
ADV BOTES SC:

Thank you very much, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

ADV SONI SC:

Ye s , t h a n k y o u s o m u c h , M r B o t e s , o n

behalf of the Commission’s legal team.
CHAIRPERSON:

I want us to adjourn for a few minutes

and I would like to see you Mr Soni and Mr Nkatha.
10

ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
O k a y. W e a d j o u r n

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s M r S o n i ? Yo u r m i c .
Chairperson I have noticed you’re having

difficulty following the num bering in the bundles and they
a r e n o t – t h e y h a v e n o t b e e n d o n e i n t h e u s u a l m a n n e r.
We would ask if we could be given leave to put the bundles
right and ask if we could take an early lunch adjournment
20

so we can sort that out and we could start again at two
o’clock

and

go

through

the

witnesses

t h e r e a f t e r.

I

apologise again, but it is not fair to you especially because
we may be familiar with the documents but I noticed you
were struggling to keep up with the witnesses and tally
what was said, what is contained in the documents.
Page 71 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, w e w i l l a d j o u r n e a r l y f o r l u n c h a n d

I will give you a little bit more time. There are two ways of
doing this, one is to paginate this bundle afresh, even
m a n u a l l y, s o t h a t i n t h e b u n d l e I k n o w t h a t t h e p a g i n a t i o n
starts from page one and goes up to the last page and the
sequential.

At the moment the problem is that different

sections of documents in the bundle are paginated on their
own.
ADV SONI SC:
10

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

So if you say to me page 20 I have got

to ask page 20 of which section, whereas if you do it the
way it is normally done, if you say page 20 on this bundle,
I know there is only page 20.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

S o I c a n f i n d i t e a s i l y.
Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

There are two ways of doing it, the ones

that I have just said or you could take out of this bundle Mr
Botes’
20

documents

and

make

them

–

put

them

into

a

separate bundle and then you keep the numbering that is
on his – I am assuming that, ja you keep that numbering
and then later on you go on record, to place on record that
it has been taken out of this bundle is now on its own and
we give a separate exhibit number and confirm that the
numbering that was used, the page numbers that were
Page 72 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
used to refer to various documents during his evidence
remains the same.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

The same, yes.
O k a y.

And then you then come to this

bundle which would then be minus Mr Botes document and
then paginated from page 1 up to the last document.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
And prepare an index as one would do,

which would be at the beginning and then it retains the
10

s a m e b u n d l e n u m b e r a n d t h e s a m e e x h i b i t n u m b e r, b u t t h e
pagination is sequential.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
O k a y, i t i s n o w n e a r l y t w e n t y f i v e t o o n e ,

so I think we will resume – we will adjourn and resume at
two, it gives you I think enough time to attend to this and
to

have

lunch

and

then

to

the

extent

that

it may be

necessary we will sit until latish to try and finish as many
of the witnesses as possible, obviously we will check their
availability if we go beyond, when we go beyond four
20

o’clock but from my point of view we could go even up to
six.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
But we will talk and if tomorrow –

tomorrow we are meant to have only one witness or how
many?
Page 73 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
ADV SONI SC:

Tw o w i t n e s s e s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Tw o , b u t b o t h o f t h e m a r e s h o r t ?

Or

one is longer?
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
goes.

Ye s . ,
Mr Dingiswayo
Ye s .
Is it, and then ja okay so let’s see how it

Okay we will then adjourn and resume at two

o’clock.
10

ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

As you please.
We adjourn.

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON:
mic.

Mr Soni is everything ready now?

Yo u r

Yo u r m i c , t u r n i t t o w a r d s y o u o t h e r w i s e y o u ’ r e s i t t i n g

far from it.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s , y e s , w e h o p e i t i s C h a i r p e r s o n , w e

have tried and we have done as you liked it to be, and as it
should
20

be,

starting

with

the

–

the

first

page

being

n u m b e r e d o n e a n d t h e n c o n t i n u i n g , s e q u e n t i a l l y, u n t i l t h e
end of that bundle.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .
Chair we are on Bundle G, we have

rem oved affidavit of Mr Boulters from that bundle and we
will put it in a separate bundle.
Page 74 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a l r i g h t .

ADV SONI SC: And then ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay and you will deal with that at some

stage to place on record what we will call that bundle.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s , a n d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, or do you want to deal with that

now?
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s , s o a s y o u h a v e s u g g e s t e d D C J t h e

num bering will be the same, it will just be a different
10

b u n d l e n u m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o w w h a t I m e a n i s w e w i l l n e e d f o r

purposes of the record to say what bundle it is and what
exhibit it is so that somebody who reads the transcript will
not look for the number that was mentioned earlier and
would not look for it in this bundle.
ADV SONI SC:

No indeed, yes.

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

J a , o k a y, a l r i g h t .
We will try and do it by tom orrow so it will

save time.
20

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

O k a y, n o t h a t i s a l r i g h t .

O k a y.

Chairperson our next witness is Mr

N i c h o l a s J o h a n n e s L o u b s e r. M a y h e b e s w o r n i n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Please

administer

the

oath

or

affirmation.
REGISTRAR:

Please state your full names for the record.
Page 75 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
MR LOUBSER:

N i c h o l a s J o h a n n e s L o u b s e r.

REGISTRAR:

Do you have any objection taking the

prescribed oath?
MR LOUBSER:
REGISTRAR:

No.
Do you consider the oath to be binding on

your conscience?
MR LOUBSER:

Ye s .

REGISTRAR:

Do you swear that the evidence you will

give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing else but
10

the truth?

If so please raise your right hand and say so

help me God.
MR LOUBSER:

So help me God.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES LOUBSER: (d.s.s.)
CHAIRPERSON:
seated.

Yo u m a y t h e n c o n t i n u e M r S o n i .

ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Thank you very much, you may be

As you please Chairperson.
Thank you.
Chairperson may I take ...[intervenes]
Well you just want to mention where I

find Mr Loubser ’s affidavit.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Page 106 in Bundle G Chairperson.
O k a y, w e ’ r e u s i n g B u n d l e G , w h i c h i s –

and the Exhibit for his affidavit is SS16.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

SS16.
Ja, and it is page 106?
Page 76 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

106 Chairperson.
Well the covering note starts at 104 and

then there is an index at 105 and then the actual affidavit
starts at 106.
ADV SONIC SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Okay for purposes of this bundle see we

normally when we refer to page numbers, we normally refer
to the red numbers on the pages, so let’s announce for the
purposes of those who will read the transcript that – how
10

this one is.

Is it the handwritten numbers, pagination that

we follow from the beginning to end or is there a mix of red
numbers and the handwritten numbers?
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

It is the handwritten numbers.
Throughout?
Throughout.
Okay

in

this

particular

bundle

the

pagination for the purpose of the record well it can’t be Mr
Soni because I see Mr Mogashoa’s affidavit doesn’t have
handwritten pagination.
20

ADV SONI SC:

Chairperson what we intend doing here is

we will handwrite that as well so there’s consistency and
people are not looking in different places.

So just those

numbers will be the same but they will be handwritten as
well.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , I c a n ’ t s a y t h a t w e w i l l f o l l o w t h e
Page 77 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
handwritten numbers until everything is handwritten, so I
won’t say anything about the pagination because it means
i t i s n o t c o n s i s t e n t , o k a y, b u t f o r p u r p o s e s – s o f o r p r e s e n t
purposes there are – there is pagination that is read and
pagination that is handwritten, is that right?
ADV SONI SC:

That is so.

CHAIRPERSON:

But the red pagination will – you will

paginate by hand but the numbers, page numbers will be
the same.
10

ADV SONI SC:

Will be the same for Mr Mogashoa’s

affidavit.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, I just wish somebody had just done

the whole thing from the beginning to end and we could
announce

before

we

start

using

it

that

this

is

the

arrangement, because all the other bundles the pagination
is – we tell the witnesses look at the red numbers, that is
the pagination, so here we have got to say handwritten, but
now if I say handwritten then that is not correct for the
other one, so we will say handwritten for – or maybe we
20

won’t say anything we will just say we know that for his
affidavit and documents it is the handwritten ones and then
later on somebody will then do the earlier ones.
ADV SONI SC:

Do the Mogashoa affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV

SONI

SC:

O k a y, a l r i g h t .

Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .

Chairperson
Page 78 of 253

may

I

just

give

an

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
i n t r o d u c t i o n t o t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r L o u b s e r, b e c a u s e o n e
needs

to

indicate

what

his

–

what

the

nature

of

his

evidence is going to be.
Mr

Chairperson

you

would

have

known

that

in

respect of the property deals that Ms Ngoye dealt with in
h e r a f f i d a v i t a n d w e c a n v a s s e d q u i t e e x t e n s i v e l y, e v e n
y e s t e r d a y, a p e r s o n w h o s e n a m e f e a t u r e s q u i t e p r o m i n e n t l y
i s M r v a n d e r Wa l t a n d y o u w o u l d k n o w t h a t t h e a l l e g a t i o n
is that he was at some stage or the other an attorney for
10

Siyangena and the context is that Siyangena which had
that major contract or contracts with PRASA amounting to
four odd Billion Rand.
N o w M r v a n d e r Wa l t i s n o l o n g e r i n t h e c o u n t r y, h e
was

an

attorney

Incorporated.

in

the

firm

L o u b s e r,

Va n

der

Wa l t

He left in 2019 and we understand presently

h e i s i n A u s t i n i n t h e Te x a s i n t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s .

We have

r e c e i v e d t h e c o o p e r a t i o n o f h i s f o r m e r p a r t n e r, M r L o u b s e r,
who then kindly made certain documents available to us
and is here to explain what he knows about some of these
20

transactions, but you – he will explain why his knowledge
in this matter is somewhat limited.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well I don’t know whether for purposes

of enabling those who are listening and those who are
maybe viewing the proceedings on television or elsewhere
whether

it

is

not

necessary

to

Page 79 of 253

mention

the

property

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
transactions to say this is what appears to have been done
and

this

is

how

the

law

firms

appears

to

have

been

i n v o l v e d , o r M r v a n d e r Wa l t t o h a v e b e e n i n v o l v e d a n d
then so that when they hear Mr Loubser ’s evidence they
can see where it fits in.
ADV

SONI

SC:

As

you

please

Chairperson.

Now

Chairperson you will recall that in regard to Mr van der
Wa l t a n d w h y M s N g o y e i n h e r f o u n d i n g a f f i d a v i t , a n d
replying
10

affidavit

in

the

Siyangena

matter

Siyangena contract with PRASA is tainted.

says

the

She says there

were four property transactions involving Mr Montana and
M r v a n d e r Wa l t , o r i s c o m p a n y w h i c h i s c a l l e d P r e c i s e
Tr a d e a n d I n v e s t m e n t 0 2 P t y L i m i t e d .
The

first

Mr

Chairperson

is

a

property

that

Mr

Montana owned and which his own banker had valued at
a b o u t R 3 . 5 m i l l i o n i n 2 0 1 2 . I n 2 0 1 4 M r v a n d e r Wa l t b o u g h t
that

property

effectively

from

made

a

Mr

Montana

profit,

for

Chairperson,

R6.8million,
of

more

he
than

R 3 m i l l i o n o n t h e e s t i m a t e d v a l u e o f t h e p r o p e r t y.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u m e a n M r M o n t a n a m a d e a p r o f i t o f

about…[intervenes].
ADV SONI SC:

Mr Montana made a profit yes.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

ADV SONI SC:

The second property that is in question,

C h a i r p e r s o n , i s a p r o p e r t y i n Wa t e r k l o o f i n P r e t o r i a a n d
Page 80 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
w e ’ r e h o p i n g t o h a v e a w i t n e s s , t h e o w n e r o f t h e p r o p e r t y,
to come and give evidence this afternoon, who will indicate
that the property was – the first person to express an
interest in the property was Mr Montana and then gradually
h e w i t h d r e w f r o m t h e s c e n e a n d M r v a n d e r Wa l t , t h r o u g h
P r e c i s e Tr a d e b e c a m e t h e o w n e r o f t h e p r o p e r t y a n d t h a t
p r o p e r t y w a s i n t h e r e g i o n o f R 11 m i l l i o n M r C h a i r p e r s o n .
The third property is a property in Sandhurst and the
estate agent who sold the property is here, he will be
10

g i v i n g e v i d e n c e o n t h a t p r o p e r t y, h e s o l d t h a t p r o p e r t y f o r
R13.9million, having entered into a contract originally with
M r M o n t a n a b u t t h e n a g a i n P r e c i s e Tr a d e e n t e r e d i n t o t h e
scene and they became – the property was transferred into
i t s n a m e . t h e f o u r t h p r o p e r t y, C h a i r p e r s o n , i s a p r o p e r t y i n
Hurlingham which Mr Montana bought and that was in the
r e g i o n o f R 1 3 . 5 m i l l i o n a n d t h a t p r o p e r t y, t h e y a t t e m p t e d t o
t r a n s f e r i n t o t h e n a m e o f P r e c i s e Tr a d e b u t t h e o w n e r
would have nothing to do with it and you will see from
documents, as to why that was the case…[intervenes].

20

CHAI RPERSO N: That’s the owner of the propert y?
ADV SONI SC:

At Hurlingham yes.

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t t h e o w n e r o f P r e c i s e Tr a d e ?
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s , a n d e v e n t u a l l y t h e p r o p e r t y w a s

transferred to Mr Montana.

Now the evidence that is

available in respect of the payment of the
Page 81 of 253

properties,

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
Chairperson, is that it does not appear as if Montana – Mr
Montana paid any money for any of these properties.

N o w,

we accept that he sold one and two were transferred into
t h e n a m e o f P r e c i s e Tr a d e b u t t h e f a c t o f t h e m a t t e r i s , M r
Chairperson, he bought a property in his own name, it
transferred to his own name, thirteen odd million rand but
the documents that we have which show payment for these
properties doesn’t reflect that he, himself,
cent for these properties.
10

paid even a

So, that is the value of Mr

Loubser ’s evidence because although he can’t give firsth a n d i n f o r m a t i o n , t h e y c o n f r o n t e d M r v a n d e r Wa l t a b o u t
t h i s , h e a n d h i s p a r t n e r, M r v a n W y k … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d M r v a n d e r Wa l t w a s n o t j u s t a

p a r t n e r i n t h e l a w f i r m , n a m e l y L o u b s e r v a n d e r Wa l t b u t h e
w a s t h e s o l e D i r e c t o r, i s i t , o f P r e c i s e Tr a d e ?
ADV SONI SC:

That is so Chairperson yes.

CHAIRPERSON:

J a , j a , o k a y.

ADV SONI SC:

And what we will also show through Mr

L o u b s e r i s , t h a t w h e n t h e y c o n f r o n t e d h i m , M r v a n d e r Wa l t
20

gavel Mr Loubser and Mr van Wyk a set of documents
which contain some of these property dealings but more
importantly the funders for these property dealings and
there are three main individuals who are the funders.

We

will go through them, perhaps I must just mention them
n o w, t h e r e ’ s a M r C l a n s e y, t h e r e ’ s a M r P l i m e n t a l a n d t h e r e
Page 82 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
i s a n o r g a n i s a t i o n w h i c h y o u ’ v e h e a r d o f a l r e a d y, T M M
which had entered into a contract, TMM and Mr Ferreira
h a d e n t e r e d i n t o a c o n t r a c t w i t h M r v a n d e r Wa l t t o h a v e
joint ventures in property matters and in respect of some of
t h e p a y m e n t s , p a y m e n t s w e r e m a d e i n t o P r e c i s e Tr a d e ’ s
account and soon thereafter withdrawals were made to pay
for some of these property transactions but that will be
s h o w n v i a a b a n k s t a t e m e n t t h a t M r v a n d e r Wa l t g a v e t o
M r L o u b s e r.
10

So those are the matters I’m going to lead Mr

Loubser on Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, n o t h a t ’ s f i n e , y o u m a y p r o c e e d .

ADV SONI SC:

As it pleases Chairperson.

M r L o u b s e r,

sorry you’ve heard the introduction.
MR LOUBSER:

Ye s .

ADV SONI SC:

Can I just ask you, are you still practicing

as an attorney?
MR LOUBSER:

Ye s .

ADV SONI SC:

And how many partners are in your firm at

the moment?
20

MR LOUBSER:

Presently just two.

ADV SONI SC:

That’s you and Mr…[intervenes].

CHAIRPERSON:

I’m

sorry

Mr

L o u b s e r,

although

he’s

asking the questions, you tell me the answer so you look
towards me most of the time and then you can just raise
your voice.
Page 83 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
MR LOUBSER:

Sorry Chairperson, there’s currently –

there’s only two Directors in the firm, myself and Mr van
Wyk.
CHAIRPERSON:

I don’t know whether it’s the aircon,

please just repeat that, the aircon made your voice not to
b e c l e a r, j u s t r e p e a t w h a t y o u h a v e j u s t s a i d .
MR LOUBSER:

Sorry Chairperson, presently it’s only

myself and Mr Robert van Wyk as Directors of the firm.

10

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV SONI SC:

Now Mr Loubser your firm is still called

L o u b s e r Va n D e r Wa l t .
MR LOUBSER:

N o , i t ’ s n o t – f o l l o w i n g M r v a n d e r Wa l t ’ s

resignation and the sale of his shares, we changed the
n a m e t o L o u b s e r v a n W y k a s i t i s p r e s e n t l y.
ADV SONI SC:

Alright, now how long had you and Mr van

d e r Wa l t a n d M r v a n W y k b e e n i n p a r t n e r s h i p ?
MR LOUBSER:

M r v a n d e r Wa l t a n d I s t a r t e d a f i r m i n

2000 and about three years later Mr van Wyk joined us,
first as an article clerk, then professional assistant and
20

l a t e r b e c a m e a D i r e c t o r.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR LOUBSER:
CHAIRPERSON:
MR LOUBSER:
CHAIRPERSON:

L o o k a t m e M r L o u b s e r.
Let me repeat that then.
Ja please repeat that.
Myself and…[intervenes].
Maybe what you can do as you speak,
Page 84 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
come a little closer to the mic or bring it a little closer ja,
o k a y.
MR LOUBSER:

We started a firm in 2000…[intervenes].

CHAIRPERSON:

That’s much better ja.

MR LOUBSER:

M y s e l f a n d M r v a n D e r Wa l t s t a r t e d a

firm, we were the only two Directors and about three/four
years later Mr van Wyk joined us, first as a candidate
a t t o r n e y, t h e n a s a p r o f e s s i o n a l a s s i s t a n t a n d l a t e r o n
became a Director in the firm.
10

ADV SONI SC:

And after – sorry when did Mr van der

Wa l t l e f t ?
MR LOUBSER:

Sorry?

ADV SONI SC:

When did he leave?

MR LOUBSER:

He left in June/July 2019.

ADV SONI SC:
concerns

that

Now before he left though, there were
you

and

Mr

van

Wyk

entertained

about

c e r t a i n d e a l i n g s t h a t M r v a n d e r Wa l t a p p e a r e d t o b e
h a v i n g a n d t h a t h a d r e c e i v e d a d v e r s e p u b l i c i t y, w o u l d t h a t
be correct?
20

MR LOUBSER:
ADV SONI SC:

That’s correct.
Would you tell the Chairperson the

circumstances of that?
MR LOUBSER:

We – m yself and Mr van Wyk becam e

aware of newspaper reports that mentioned Mr van der
Wa l t a n d h i s c o m p a n y, P r e c i s e Tr a d e a n d I n v e s t . T h e r e
Page 85 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
w e r e c e r t a i n a l l e g a t i o n s m a d e a g a i n s t P r e c i s e Tr a d e a n d
I n v e s t , n e v e r r e a l l y, i t i n v o l v e d t h e f i r m , t h e l a w f i r m a n d
then in – I think it was in September/October 2015 there
appeared certain newspaper articles which, once again,
m a k e s r e f e r e n c e t o t h e c o m p a n y P r e c i s e Tr a d e a n d I n v e s t
a n d t h e n m e n t i o n s t h e – a n d h i s l a w f i r m . M r v a n d e r Wa l t ,
P r e c i s e Tr a d e a n d I n v e s t a n d h i s l a w f i r m .

At that stage,

M r v a n d e r Wa l t a t a l l t i m e s m a i n t a i n e d t h a t P r e c i s e Tr a d e
and Invest is his company it’s got nothing to do with
10

anybody else but we were concerned that the law firm,
e v e n t h o u g h t h e n a m e w a s n o t m e n t i o n e d s p e c i f i c a l l y, b u t
M r v a n d e r Wa l t a n d h i s l a w f i r m b y a s s o c i a t i o n o u r n a m e
is

being

tarnished

and

we

were

placed

in

a

difficult

situation. At that stage we decided to call a meeting with –
there was speculation, allegations in the newspapers and
stuff which we don’t have personal knowledge of and we
decided to have a meeting and explain to us exactly who is
P r e c i s e Tr a d e a n d I n v e s t w h a t p r o p e r t i e s t h e y b o u g h t , h e
bought.
20

So, it was the first meeting we had and we

addressed a letter to him, in writing, following that meeting
which he responded to.
ADV SONI SC:

N o w, j u s t t o p u t i t o n r e c o r d y o u ’ v e

described all these matters in an affidavit which you made
on the 18th of June, is that correct?
MR LOUBSER:

That’s correct.
Page 86 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV

SONI

affidavit,

18th of June 2020?

SC:

you

2020,

attach

a

yes

Chairperson

number

of

and

documents

in

this

which

Mr…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

Maybe for the sake of – I don’t know if

you already m entioned but that affidavit appears at page f r o m p a g e 1 0 6 t o 11 3 t h a t i s t h e a f f i d a v i t o f M r L o u b s e r i n
Bundle G.
ADV SONI SC:
10

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

As it pleases Chairperson.
Ja.
N o w, y o u c o n f i r m t h e c o r r e c t n e s s o f

what’s stated in our affidavit?
MR LOUBSER:
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .
Okay so you say you confronted Mr van

d e r Wa l t .
MR LOUBSER:
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .
And following that confrontation, what

happened then?
MR LOUBSER:
20

He explained certain things to us and we

said – we agreed that

we will pose these questions in

writing to him to explain which we then drafted the letter
which we addressed to him by myself and Mr van Wyk and
asking to confirm in writing what he’d told us in a meeting
or provide more clarification.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s , s o r r y s o … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
Page 87 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:

Sorry Mr Soni, let’s start with this. First

you became aware of certain allegations in the media, in
t h e n e w s p a p e r r e l a t i n g t o M r v a n d e r Wa l t o r P r e c i s e Tr a d e
or both but also those allegations or those articles or that
article mentioned your law firm in whatever they were
saying, is that right?
MR LOUBSER:

That’s correct, they didn’t mention the

firm by name but…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:
10

B u t i t s a i d M r v a n d e r Wa l t a n d h i s l a w

firm, ja.
MR LOUBSER:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
What was your impression of what was

b e i n g s a i d a b o u t M r v a n d e r Wa l t o r P r e c i s e Tr a d e t h a t
made you concerned and want to confront him?
MR

LOUBSER:

maintained

that

There
Precise

appeared
Tr a d e

and

to

be

Invest,

–

he
is

always

the

sole

Director – ja sole shareholder and Director of the firm and
he bought properties and we heard that he’s previously
also involved in other property transactions but there was
20

some allegation about his law firm and we wanted to know
is there any truth in certain allegations made, explain to us
w h o i s P r e c i s e Tr a d e a n d I n v e s t a n d w h i c h p r o p e r t i e s d i d
you acquire…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

Were there allegations of som e wrong

d o i n g m a d e i n t h e m e d i a a b o u t M r v a n d e r Wa l t a n d / o r
Page 88 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
P r e c i s e Tr a d e w h i c h y o u w e r e c o n c e r n e d p e o p l e c o u l d
associate with your law firm because the reference to his
law firm was a reference to your law firm as well?
MR LOUBSER:

Ye s , t h e r e w a s m e n t i o n m a d e o f m o n e y

p a i d b y h i s l a w f i r m t o s o m e b o d y.
CHAIRPERSON:
give

the

reader

B u t i t g i v e t h e r e a d e r, d i d t h e a r t i c l e
the

impression

of

some

wrong

doing,

allegations of wrong doing or not, why were you concerned
about what was said in the media about him and the law
10

firm?
MR LOUBSER:

It was by association, we didn’t know

anything specifically but because the law firm is mentioned
and there was mention made of monies paid by his law
firm, we were concerned about, was there money involved
through the firm.
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay what I’m trying to understand is,

whether you were prompted to confront him simply because
from what you read in the newspapers it appeared that
there may have been money that, according to the article,
20

was either paid to the law firm or was paid by the law firm
to buy some properties without your knowledge irrespective
of whether there was wrong doing or not or whether the
impression you got on reading the article or articles was
t h a t , w h a t e v e r M r v a n d e r Wa l t o r P r e c i s e Tr a d e w a s
involved in or was allegedly involved in, was having a –
Page 89 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
may have a negative impact on the law firm. It created the
impression that the law firm might be involved in wrong
d o i n g , p r e c i s e l y w h a t m a d e y o u s a y, l o o k , w e m u s t c o n f r o n t
him about this. Is it simply because there might have been
some money transactions involved in the law firm that you
knew nothing about, even if there was nothing wrong about
them or was there – did there appear to be allegations of
wrong doing of one kind or another?
MR LOUBSER:
10

Chairperson we were more concerned

about monies that was paid through the law firm, because
the rest was allegations in the newspaper with – we didn’t
deal

with

that

aspect

we

were

more

concerned

about

m o n i e s t h a t w a s , s o m e h o w, t h r o u g h o u r l a w f i r m a n d i t w a s
not – the meeting was not a confrontational meeting it was,
e x p l a i n t o u s t h i s , w h e r e – w h o ’ s P r e c i s e Tr a d e a n d I n v e s t ,
did these transactions flow through our firm, that was our
concern.

Not the allegations that he had some wrong

doing we were more concerned about the firm.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ja but was the – were the allegations or

was the impression you got from the article that some
monies had allegedly been paid from the law firm to buy
some properties that you knew nothing about or was the
allegation or was the impression that some monies were
paid in to the law firm without your knowledge in regard to
some properties, which exactly…[intervenes].
Page 90 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
MR LOUBSER:

Ye s w e w e r e – t h e r e w a s m e n t i o n m a d e o f

money that was paid by or from or from our law firm which
we were not aware of, myself and Mr van Wyk were not
aware of.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV SONI SC:

Just to give some context to this, you

w r o t e t o M r v a n d e r Wa l t o n t h e 1 4 t h o f O c t o b e r r i g h t , a n d
that appears at page 120, that’s Annexure NLJ2 to your
affidavit – sorry NJL2 to your affidavit, would that be
10

correct, if you look at the bottom…[intervenes].
MR LOUBSER:

I s e e i t a s p a g e 11 9 .

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

J a i t s t a r t s o n 11 9 .
Ye s , a n d y o u r s i g n a t u r e a n d M r v a n W y k ’ s

signature is at page 120, is that right?
MR LOUBSER:

That’s correct.

ADV SONI SC:

Ye s , a n d i t ’ s d a t e d t h e 1 4 t h o f O c t o b e r ?

MR LOUBSER:

That’s correct.

ADV SONI SC:

Can I ask you just to turn back to an

Annexure before that which is NJL2?
20

MR LOUBSER:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
nature

of

the

On what page?
S o r r y p a g e 11 7 C h a i r p e r s o n .

article,

because

I

see

you

Is this the

say

in

your

affidavit you couldn’t find the article in question but you
give a – there is a summary of the article which you
Page 91 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
Annexed to your affidavit, is this the nature of the article
that was written?
MR LOUBSER:

Ye s w e c o u l d n ’ t f i n d t h e o r i g i n a l a r t i c l e i t

appeared, I think it was in the Rapport and City Press, we
couldn’t find the article anywhere on the internet but we
managed to find – Mr Ollerman asked me if I can refer to
the article and this was – this seems to be a synopsis of
what was said in the newspapers.
ADV SONI SC:
10

And the date of this News24 article is the

4th of October 2018, is that right?
MR LOUBSER:

That’s correct.

ADV SONI SC:

So that’s – two things, the articles or the

media reports start early in October and you confront him
a b o u t t w o w e e k s l a t e r, i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MR LOUBSER:
ADV

SONI

Ye s .

SC:

And

if

you

–

this

is

what

the

Chairperson…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON: I’m sorry…[intervenes].
ADV SONI SC:
20

This is what the Chairperson was asking

about, the nature of the article. Would you just – you don’t
need to read the whole article but would you just read the
h e a d l i n e o f t h e a r t i c l e a s i t a p p e a r s o n p a g e 11 7 .
MR LOUBSER:
“Lawyer

It says
forks

out

R25million

mansions”.
Page 92 of 253

for

Montana’s

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
ADV SONI SC:

And if you could just read the first

paragraph of that article…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

Before that, Mr Soni, have you indicate

from what publication this article comes?
ADV SONI SC:

Chairperson you – sorry I should – Mr

Loubser you’ll see under that headline the end is blotted
out but it seems to be a News24 article, is that correct?

If

you just look at the headline and under that on the lefthand side, do you see that?
10

MR LOUBSER:

Ye s , u n d e r t h e h e a d l i n e , “ L a w y e r f o r k s o u t

R25million for Montanan’s mansion”, it says News24.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV

SONI

Ja.

SC:

Right

could

you

please

just

read…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d – I ’ m s o r r y, I s e e o n t h e r i g h t - h a n d

side there, I see the name Pieter-Louis Myburgh and then I
see Rapport.

Do we know whether the article was written

by Pieter-Louis Myburgh or we don’t know?
ADV SONI SC:
20

It would be written by him and it would be

a News24 report, based on what was contained in Rapport.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV SONI SC:

So, if you could read the first paragraph

of that article.
MR LOUBSER:
won

“A lawyer of close ties to a company that

large

tenders

from

Passenger

Page 93 of 253

Rail

Agency

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
South Africa, when Lucky Montana was at its helm
bought

Montana

two

upscale

properties

worth

almost R25million and paid for it in cash”.
ADV SONI SC:

N o w, i s t h e n a m e o f t h e l a w y e r m e n t i o n e d ,

if you look at the second page of that article?
MR LOUBSER:

Ye s , i t ’ s m e n t i o n e d o n t h e s e c o n d p a g e .

ADV SONI SC:

And…[intervenes].

CHAIRPERSON:

Well maybe he could read a few more

sentences.
10

ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .

MR LOUBSER:

“ T h e l a w y e r, R i a a n v a n d e r Wa l t , f r o m

Pretoria, strongly denies that his shelf company
acted as a proxy for Montana”.
ADV SONI SC:

And then just so that your concern is

noted, what does the next paragraph read?
MR LOUBSER:
“ Va n d e r Wa l t ’ s l a w f i r m h a s i n t h e p a s t r e p r e s e n t e d
a

company

featured

in

a

Public

Protector ’s

Madonsela’s recent report on P RASA following an
20

irregular tender worth billions of Rands”.
ADV SONI SC:

And then the article gives a synopsis of

some of the matters that they had uncovered…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

I think, Mr Soni, it’s fine he can just

read and finish that article ja.
ADV SONI SC:

As it pleases.
Page 94 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t r e a d a n d f i n i s h i t M r L o u b s e r.
MR LOUBSER:

Ja then it gets to a paragraph that starts

– it says,
“ Va n d e r Wa l t ’ s l a w f i r m p a i d a d e p o s i t o f R 5 m i l l i o n
towards the Sandhurst transaction and confirmed in
a letter that the house new owner was Montana.
The purchase agreements for both properties were
ultimately
Invest
10

altered

02

himself

as

took

the

to

reflect

legal

possession

Precise

o w n e r,
of

Tr a d e

whilst

the

and

Montana

property

keys.

Montana said he wished not to comment, van der
Wa l t m a i n t a i n e d t h a t h i s s h e l f c o m p a n y w a s , i n n o
w a y, r e l a t e d t o M o n t a n a o r a n y o t h e r t h i r d p a r t y ” .
ADV SONI SC:

Mr Loubser…[intervenes].

CHAIRPERSON:

I’m sorry…[intervenes].

ADV SONI SC:

There’s a paragraph that you didn’t

read…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja I think so too, I thought – the

p a r a g r a p h t h a t s t a r t s , “ Va n d e r Wa l t ’ s s h e l f c o m p a n y ” .
20

MR LOUBSER:

My apologies,

“ Va n d e r Wa l t ’ s s h e l f c o m p a n y, P r e c i s e Tr a d e a n d
Invest

02

paid

R13.9million

for

a

house

in

S a n d h u r s t J o h a n n e s b u r g a n d R 11 m i l l i o n f o r a h o u s e
in

Wa t e r k l o o f

Pretoria,

November

F e b r u a r y t h i s y e a r r e s p e c t i v e l y.
Page 95 of 253

2014

and

Both properties

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
w e r e p a i d f o r i n c a s h , h o w e v e r, e a r l y 2 0 1 3 M o n t a n a
himself signed a contract of sale to buy the house
i n Wa t e r k l o o f .

In October 2014 he signed an offer

to purchase the house in Sandhurst”.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Ja, thank you.
And then the last paragraph – the second

l a s t p a r a g r a p h , a b o u t v a n d e r Wa l t ’ s r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h M r
Montana, what does he say about it, according to the
Rapport?
10

MR LOUBSER:

“ Va n d e r Wa l t m a i n t a i n e d h i s s h e l f

company was in no way related to Montana or any
other third parties”.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s , a n d t h e n i t s a y s t h e f u l l r e p o r t

appears in Rapport and City Press.
MR LOUBSER:

Ye s ,

“And a full report, Rapport and City Press”,
It’s a bit – some of the page is a bit cut-off.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s , n o w y o u c o n f r o n t – w e l l p e r h a p s I

should – you raise the issue with Mr Montana, is that
20

correct, after this article or after the Rapport article?
MR LOUBSER:

No, we did not raise the issue with Mr

Montana…[intervenes].
ADV SONI SC:
MR LOUBSER:

S o r r y w i t h M r v a n d e r Wa l t .
Va n D e r Wa l t y e s , w e r a i s e d t h e i s s u e

w i t h M r v a n d e r Wa l t r e g a r d i n g t h i s s h e l f c o m p a n y, P r e c i s e
Page 96 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
Tr a d e a n d I n v e s t … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L o o k o n t h i s s i d e a g a i n M r L o u b s e r.
MR LOUBSER:

We raised the question of the company

P r e c i s e Tr a d e a n d I n v e s t , w e w a n t e d t o k n o w m o r e d e t a i l s
of that.
CHAIRPERSON:

So you had a meeting with Mr van der

Wa l t ?
MR LOUBSER:

J u s t e n q u i r i n g , w h o ’ s t h i s P r e c i s e Tr a d e

and Invest because it was not known to us.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Now that meeting that you had with Mr

v a n d e r Wa l t , y o u r s e l f , M r v a n d e r Wa l t a n d M r v a n W y k ,
it’s

very

important

that

I

discussed there as possible.

get

as

much

of

what

was

It may be that it was a short

meeting because it was agreed that you must put your
request in writing but I want to hear the full discussion but
if there is not much other than that you put the question
and you said, put your questions in writing, just talk more
to me about that discussion.
MR LOUBSER:
20

I can honestly not recall the exact nature

but it was brief and it was agreed that we will – base our
concerns in writing and give him an opportunity to respond.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

O k a y.
So just taking up the theme, is it because

you wanted it to be – you wanted there to be something in
writing so there’s no dispute about what the real facts are
Page 97 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
o r d i d h e a s k y o u f o r m o r e t i m e o r d i d y o u s a y, g i v e u s t i m e
to prepare a proper enquiry to you?
MR LOUBSER:

Sorry I don’t understand your question.

ADV SONI SC:

Okay so let me put…[intervenes].

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a l r i g h t w h o a s k e d t h a t t h e r e b e a

written request for information, did you and Mr van Wyk
s a y t o h i m - t o M r v a n d e r Wa l t , w e w i l l g i v e y o u s o m e t h i n g
in writing to tell you what we would like you to deal with or
d i d h e , t h a t i s M r v a n d e r Wa l t , s a y t o y o u , p l e a s e s e n d m e
10

something in writing then I will respond in writing.
ADV SONI SC:

Once again I cannot recall but I’m pretty

sure that we – I cannot recall who raised whether it should
be

in

writing

or

not,

I

cannot

recall

but

I

assume…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

Well if you can’t remember it’s fine but

in the end, it was agreed that you would put your request
in writing, request for information.
MR LOUBSER:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

MR LOUBSER:

Ye s , t h a t ’ s r i g h t .
And he would respond in writing?
Ye s , t h a t ’ s r i g h t C h a i r p e r s o n .

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV SONI SC:

Mr Loubser why I asked that is, you are

three partners and it would be unusual where you have a
p a r t n e r s h i p o f l a w y e r s , f o r o n e p a r t n e r t o s a y, p u t i t i n
w r i t i n g o r a n o t h e r p a r t n e r t o s a y, I w i l l p u t i t i n w r i t i n g .
Page 98 of 253

It

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
looks like there were concerns about what the real facts
are or am I wrong, am I just speculating?
MR LOUBSER:

No there was not concerns about the real

facts we just wanted to – we were – at that stage we were
three Directors and there was two other attorneys involved
in it and we all run our own departments and each of us
had a couple of hundred piles that we deal with and I don’t
really know what Mr van der Wyk deals with or one of my
PA’ s d e a l s w i t h o r w h a t M r v a n d e r Wa l t d e a l s w i t h .
10

So, it

was not a thing of accusations we wanted to – who is
P r e c i s e Tr a d e a n d I n v e s t a n d e x a c t l y h o w – i t w a s m o r e a n
enquiry than saying there was something untoward.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s o k a y, a n y w a y t h a t m e e t i n g i s h e l d o n

the 12th and then on the 14th you send…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Is that 12th October?
12 October 2015 Chairperson and one

finds that in the first line of – in NJL3, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
20

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV

SONI

SC:

What page?
P a g e 11 9 .
Right, first line?
Ye s ,

now

under

the

heading

“van

v e r g a d e r i n g g e h o u o p 1 2 O k t o b e r. ”
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

There’s an English translation isn’t it?
There isn’t an official, Mr Ollerman made

…[intervenes].
Page 99 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:
were

in

I thought some of these documents that

Afrikaans

there

was

some

English

translation

provided?
ADV SONI SC:

Mr Ollermann provided an informal

translation for us.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Who provided it?
Clint Ollermann.
O h o k a y, w e l l i f i t ’ s a c c e p t e d a s c o r r e c t

then that’s fine, I don’t know if Mr Loubser has seen it, that
10

translation.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

No, he hasn’t Chairperson.
Is it not here?
No.
Oh it’s not here.
It’s not part of the record no.
O h , o k a y, a l r i g h t w e l l m y A f r i k a a n s i s

much worse than it was when I was at school, it was much
better when I was at school, that’s centuries ago, so it
would help if we could have, maybe, an official translation
20

u n l e s s M r L o u b s e r i s h a p p y, l a t e r o n t o j u s t p r o v i d e a n
English translation, I think he’s fluent in English.

Mr

Loubser is that something that would be easy to do or you
would rather we should have an official translation?
MR LOUBSER:
CHAIRPERSON:

No that’s fine I’m happy…[intervenes].
Yo u c a n p r o v i d e , y e s o k a y.
Page 100 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
ADV SONI SC:

O f t h i s – o f a l l f o u r l e t t e r s M r L o u b s e r.

MR LOUBSER:

Ye s , o b v i o u s l y I w i l l j u s t w a n t i n s i g h t i n t o

to confirm whether it is a correct reflection of the record.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , w h a t o f c o u r s e , y o u c a n d o t o d a y,

is when a reference is made to a letter that is in Afrikaans
you can tell us what you were saying in English because
it’s your letter you know it.

10

MR LOUBSER:

Ja.

ADV SONI SC:

S o j u s t o n t h a t t h e m e , M r L o u b s e r, w o u l d

you

tell

us,

more

or less what

–

well

summarise

the

contents of NJL3.
MR LOUBSER:

In the first paragraph we refer to the

meeting…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

I ’ m s o r r y.
T h a t ’ s s t i l l p a g e 11 9 C h a i r p e r s o n .
Yo u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t N J L 3 ?
Ye s , t h a t ’ s t h e l e t t e r o f t h e 1 4 t h o f O c t o b e r

Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

But I don’t have anything written NJL3 at

p a g e 11 9 .
ADV SONI SC:

I think…[intervenes]

CHAIRPERSON:

Is it the red writing?

ADV SONI SC:

No, it’s the black writing above the red

writing.
CHAI RPERSON: Well that looks like an odd – an O6 NOL3
Page 101 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
t o m e . W h y d o n ’ t y o u j u s t u s e t h e p a g i n a t i o n n u m b e r.
ADV SONI SC:

As you please, yes.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja

because

–

I

think

today

…[intervenes].
ADV SONI SC:

Has not been the best of days.

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Has not been the best of days.
I’m sorry Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a l ri g h t . I t h i n k j u st re p e a t t h e

q u e st i o n t o h i m .
10

A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. N o w i f y o u c o u l d p l e a s e s u m m a ri s e M r
Loubser what this is?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r l e t t e r s st a rt i n g a t p a g e 11 9 .
MR LOUBSER:

T h e f i r st p a r a g ra p h r e f e r r e d t o a m e e t i n g

a n d j u st i n t r o d u c t i o n s o r r e q u e st s .

S e co n d p a r a g ra p h i s

p h y si c a l l y a s k e d h i m t o c o n f i r m w h i c h i m m o v a b l e p r o p e rt i e s
a r e c u r re n t l y r e g i st e r e d i n t h e c o m p a n y P r e ci s e Tr a de a n d
I n v e st .

And

then

ask

him

if

there

is

any

p r o p e rt i e s

re g i st e r e d i n h e r n a m e , p r o vi d e u s w i t h e x a ct d e t a i l s o f t h e
p r o p e rt y.
20

C o p i e s o f t h e p u r ch a s e a g r e e m e n t s a n d h o w a n d

w h e n t h e p u r c h a s e p ri c e w a s p a i d f o r t h e p r o p e r t i e s s o
acquired.
We c o n t i n u e d t o a s k h i m w h e t h e r t h e – i f t h e r e w a s
m o n e y p a i d b y P r e ci s e Tr a d e a n d I n v e st w a s t h a t m o n e y t h a t
i t f l o w t h r o u g h o u r t r u st a c c o u n t a n d i f t h e m o n e y w a s
t h r o u g h o u r t ru st a c c o u n t s p e ci f y w h o p a i d m o n e y i n t o t h e
Page 102 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
t ru st a c c o u n t a n d t o w h o m t h o s e m o n i e s w a s p a i d b e ca u s e
they are

going

to

ask him to

confirm

who the

s h a r e h o l d e r s w e r e i n P r e ci s e Tr a d e a n I n ve st .

current

And then on

p a g e 1 2 0 t h e r e w a s a g e n e ra l q u e st i o n a b o u t a st a t e m e n t
f ro m I t h i n k i t w a s a M r – f r o m t h e r e p o rt e r.
ADV SONI SC: Mr Myburgh.
MR LOUBSER: Myburgh.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR LOUBSER:
10

I do not know if should I repeat that – the

st a t e m e n t w h i c h w a s m a d e b y t h e re p o rt e r.

T h e re p o rt e r –

m a y b e j u st – r e p o rt e r b a si c a l l y st a t e d t h a t Mr Va n D e r Wa l t
vi si t e d M r M a ri o F e r r e i r a a t t h e o ff i c e s o f T M M H o l d i n g s
f re q u e n t l y t h r o u g h 2 0 1 4 s o m e t i m e s t w i c e a w e e k.

These

m e e t i n g s o c c u r r e d a t a b o u t 6 : 3 0. A l s o l e a r n t t h e d o c u m e n t s
w e re f r e e t o b e t a k e n f r o m T M M H o l d i n g s t o L o u b s e r Va n D e r
Wa l t I n co r p o r a t e d w h e r e L o u b s e r Va n d e r Wa l t ’s r e c e p t i o n i st
t o o k p o s se s s i o n o f su c h e n v e l o p e s. W h e n I a s k e d h i m a b o u t
t h i s a l l e g a t i o n b y t h e r e p o rt e r. Fi n a l q u e st i o n p o se d t o h i m .
A D V S O N I S C : N o w t h a t l e t t e r w a s w ri t t e n o n t h e 1 4 t h .
20

M R L O U B S E R : T h a t i s c o r re ct .
A D V S O N I S C : D i d h e r e s p o n d t o t h a t l e t t e r?
MR LOUBSER: He responded to that.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
MR LOUBSER: And on page 121.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
Page 103 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:

I am sorry before that.

t ra n sl a t i o n s

Mr

that

Oellerman

had

T h e u n o ff i ci a l

prepared

are

they

available?
ADV SONI SC: I can make it …
CHAIRPERSON:

[ I n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 0 3 : 2 3 ] b e c a u se i f t h e y a r e

a v a i l a b l e I w o u l d l i k e t h e m t o b e u n o ff i ci a l l y s e n t t o –
h a n d e d u p t o m e s o I ca n …
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON: I can have a look at them as he deals with
10

t h e l e t t e r s t h a t a re i n A f ri k a a n s.

Because I did have hard

c o p i e s e a rl i e r o n t h a t w e r e g i ve n t o m e .
A D V S O N I S C : I ju st w a n t t o s e e i f m y h a r d co p i e s a r e t h e r e
Chairperson.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e i f I h a d k n o w n t h e y w e re n o t h e r e
I w o u l d h a ve co n d i t i o n e d m y s e l f t o r e a d i n g A f ri ka a n s a n d t r y
a n d r e s u s ci t a t e m y k n o w l e d g e o f A f ri k a a n s.
A D V S O N I S C : C h a i r p e r so n ca n I d o t h i s ? I h a v e a c o p y o f
M r Va n d e r Wa l t ’s re s p o n s e s i n E n g l i s h .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

ADV SONI SC:

S o I h a ve g o t t r a n s l a t i o n s o f h i s r e s p o n se s.

Can I hand those up?
CHAIRPERSON: Okay that is fine ja.
A D V S O N I S C : I a m s o rr y I l e f t t h e o t h e r t w o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V S O N I S C : I n c h a m b e r s.
Page 104 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:

No

that

is

fine.

O k a y.

But

in

the

meantime, we can continue.
ADV SONI SC:

S o M r Va n D e r Wa l t M s L o u b s e r r e s p o n d e d

o n t h e 2 0 O ct o b e r, i s t h a t c o rr e ct ?
M R L O U B S E R : T h a t i s c o r re ct .
ADV SONI SC: And his response appears from page 121?
M R L O U B S E R : T h a t i s c o r re ct .
A D V S O N I S C : I s t h a t co r re ct ? N o w a g a i n ve r y b ri e f l y c o u l d
y o u j u st f o r t h e re c o r d i n d i c a t e w h a t h i s r e s p o n se w a s ?
10

MR LOUBSER:

H e p e r s o n a l l y i n d i c a t e d h e l i st e d p a ra g r a p h

1 a n d p a r a g r a p h s 1 . 1 t o 1 . 5 o f t h e l e t t e r h e l i st e d t h e
p r o p e rt i e s t h a t w a s c u r r e n t l y r e g i st e r e d i n t h e c o m p a n y
P r e ci s e Tr a d e a n d I n ve st .
H e t h e n a t t a c h e d c o p i e s o f t h e p u r c h a se a g r e e m e n t s
w h i c h w e r e q u e st e d h i m t o d o s o a n d h e a t t a c h e d a b a n k
a c c o u n t – a b a n k st a t e m e n t r e f l e ct i n g t h e m o n i e s r e c e i v e d .
We l l i t i s b a n k a c c o u n t st a t e m e n t f r o m P re ci s e Tr a d e a n d
I n v e st i n d i ca t i n g w h i c h m o n i e s w a s p a i d i n t o t h a t a c c o u n t
and also paid.
20

That is at paragraph 3.

At paragraph 4 he

s a y t h a t t h a t m o n e y p a i d i n t o P r e ci s e Tr a d e a n d I n v e st
a c c o u n t w a s p a i d b y t h r e e e n t i t i e s.

One entity namely TMM

a n d t h e n t w o o t h e r p e r so n s, A m e r i ca P i m e n t e l a n d M a r k
C l a n cy.
T h e n t o t h a t h e a t t a c h e d ce rt a i n a g r e e m e n t s b e t w e e n
h i m se l f p e r s o n a l l y a n d T M M h i m s e l f p e r s o n a l l y a n d P i m e n t e l
Page 105 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
self

personally

and

Mark

C l a n c y.

He

a t t a ch e d

those

agreements to that to explain why the money was paid into
P r e ci s e Tr a d e a n I n v e st s a c c o u n t .
T h e n i n t h e s e c o n d p a ra g r a p h h e c o n f i r m e d t h a t h e i s
t h e s o l e d i r e ct o r a n d sh a r e h o l d e r i n P r e ci se Tr a d e a n d
I n v e st .

T h e f o l l o w i n g p a r a g ra p h h e c o n f i r m e d t h a t o v e r a

p e ri o d o f e i g h t y e a r s a t va ri o u s o c c a si o n s a n d a t v a r i o u s
t i m e s so m e t i m e s a s e a rl y a s si x o ’ cl o c k i n t h e m o r n i n g a n d
a f t e r h o u r s h e co n s u l t e d t o g e t h e r w i t h a d v o c a t e s, w i t h T M M ,
10

E S S , T M M R e n t a l a n d S i y a n g e n a Te c h n o l o g i e s.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
MR LOUBSER:

Then – ja he continues he mentions a

n u m b e r o f n a m e s o f p e r s o n s t h a t h e c o n su l t e d w i t h .
A D V S O N I S C : C o u l d y o u j u st r e a d t h o s e n a m e s p l e a s e ?
MR LOUBSER:

O k a y, ri g h t I w i l l d o s o .

He mentions then

R o n e l Wa r d a l g , K a r e l S a n c h e z, R a y F e rr e i r a , M a ri o F e r re i r a ,
S h e i l a D o s S a n t o s, To m D u b e k, A l w i n W i l s n a c h , Ma n n i e
M a r x, M a rt i n o M a r x, A n t o n Ve r st e r, J a c q u e s Ve r st e r, J a c q u e s
Va n J a a r s v e l d e t c e t e r a . O n d i ff e r e n t o c c a si o n s o v e r a p e ri o d
20

o f e i g h t y e a r s c o n s u l t e d b y L o u b se r Va n D e r Wa l t . D u e t o t h e
f a ct t h a t L o u b s e r Va n D e r Wa l t t h ro u g h Ta n y a K r u g e r a n d
D i n a B o s h o ff w e re r e s p o n s i b l e f o r va ri o u s c o n v e y a n ci n g
t ra n s a ct i o n s f o r T M M R e n t a l .
of – for TMM Rental.
w e re

dealt

with

T h e y w e r e t h e c o n v e y a n ce r s

F u rt h e r v a r i o u s a l l e g a t i o n m a t t e r s

by

L o u b se r

Page 106 of 253

Va n

Der

Wa l t

and

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
d o cu m e n t a t i o n s w a s d e l i v e r e d t o T M M G r o u p o r d e l i v e r e d t o
t h e m t h r o u g h t h e o ff i c e s.
CHAIRPERSON:

I

se e

that

in

that

letter

or

that

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e M r Va n D e r Wa l t ’s st yl e o r t o n e o f w ri t i n g
s e e m s t o b e v e r y o ff i ci a l a n d h e d o e s n o t s e e m t o b e j u st
w ri t i n g a s h i m se l f o r m a yb e i t i s o u t o f h a b i t w h e n y o u w ri t e
a letter on behalf of your law firm to other people. I see that
i n p a r a g ra p h 9 h e s a y s, w e – o n s p l a a s [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 1 0 : 0 7 ]
d e u r d i e s kr y w e r e n d i e a a n g e h e g t e d o k u m e n t a si e b l a , b l a ,
10

bla.

A n d i n t h e n e xt p a r a g ra p h w ro t e a n d sa y s:

o n s v e r s o e k.

O n s vi r –

So this we makes me think he is being very

o ff i ci a l .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

I s t h a t ri g h t o r i t m i g h t b e o u t o f h a b i t o f

w ri t i n g l i ke t h a t w h e n h e w ri t e s [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 1 0 : 3 5 ] .
MR LOUBSER:

I t s e e m s t o b e b e c a u se o f t h e re q u e st s i s

a l s o a l l t o g e t h e r i t f o rm a l i s e d t h a t m y r e q u e st i s i n w ri t i n g
a n d y o u r r e sp o n d e d i n w ri t i n g a s p e r h a b i t a l m o st y o u d ra f t a
l e g a l d o c u m e n t w h i c h yo u d o a n d p ro v i d e i t e x a ct c l a ri t y.
20

CHAIRPERSON:
that

these

Hm.

issues

I t i s n o t a re f l e ct i o n o f a n y t e n s i o n

that

you

raised

caused

among

p a rt n e r s ?
MR LOUBSER: I do not – I do not know what he…
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR LOUBSER: What he perceived.
Page 107 of 253

the

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON: What he might have said ja.
M R L O U B S E R : P e r c e i v e d m y r e q u e st w e r e m e a n t t o b e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o ka y.
ADV SONI SC:

So in – attached or annexed to that lettr

w e re a n u m b e r o f o t h e r d o cu m e n t s.
M R L O U B S E R : T h a t i s c o r re ct .
ADV SONI SC:

Right.

I – I a m m o r e i n t e r e st e d i n s o m e o f

them and Chairperson I do it purely in the interest of time
not
10

all

of

them

c o n ce r n e d

the

matters

raised

in

the

S i y a n g e n a a n d I j u st w a n t t o c o n c e n t r a t e o n t h o s e m a t t e r s
that are there.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SONI SC:

If there is something else it will come up on

a – a t a l a t e r st a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t h a t i s ri g h t .
A D V S O N I S C : J u st i n t h e i n t e re st o f t i m e I t h o u g h t I w o u l d
j u st d e a l w i t h t h o s e m a t t e r s t h a t a r e o f co n c e rn t o u s.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, no that is fine.
ADV SONI SC:
20

I a l so – I s h o u l d a l s o s a y t h a t i f I d o n o t

m e n t i o n f o r e x a m p l e c e rt a i n t r a n s a ct i o n s i n vo l vi n g t h e se
p r o p e rt i e s i t i s b e c a u s e t h e y w i l l b e d e a l t w i t h w h e n t h e
t ra n s a ct i o n s a s a w h o l e a r e b e i n g d e a l t w i t h . T h e p u r p o se o f
re f e rr i n g t o t h e s e d o c u m e n t s h e r e i s t o i n d i c a t e t h e – t h e
i m p o rt a n ce o f t h e d o c u m e n t s t o t h e m a t t e r s t h a t w e a r e
d e a l i n g w i t h i n t h e c o m m i s si o n .
Page 108 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:

I did not hear an earlier sentence.

Yo u

s a i d y o u d o n o t – I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u sa i d y o u d o n o t
m e n t i o n t h e p r o p e rt i e s o r s o m e t h i n g ?
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s.

S o f o r e xa m p l e , C h a i r p e r s o n h e d e a l s

– i f yo u l o o k a t p a g e 1 2 3 .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S O N I S C : T h a t i s t h e f i r st a n n e x u r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SONI SC:
10

H e d e a l s w i t h a p r o p e rt y b e i n g s o l d b y M r

I s a a c R o y M o g o j a n e t o P r e ci s e Tra d e .

Now that is not a

matter that has been mentioned in the Siyangena matter or a
m a t t e r a p p e a ri n g t o i n vo l v e M r M o n t a n a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , o b vi o u sl y w e o n l y i n t e r e st e d …
A D V S O N I S C : T h a t i s ri g h t .
CHAIRPERSON:

I n o n l y c e rt a i n m a t t e r s a n d t h o s e a r e t h e

o n e s t h a t i n vo l ve M r M o n t a n a .
A D V S O N I S C : T h a t i s c o r re ct C h a i r p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: As well as Siyangena.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O r a n y co m p a n y t h a t m i g h t b e r e l a t e d t o –

in one way or another to Siyangena.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. S o I j u st r e f e r Mr L o u b s e r t o t h o s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O ka y.
A D V S O N I S C : A n d b ri n g i t t o y o u r a t t e n t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
Page 109 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
ADV SONI SC:

Can I then ask you to look at page 138

w h i c h i s a n o ff e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o rr y M r S o n i .
A D V S O N I S C : O h s o r ry.
CHAIRPERSON:

M r S o n i I w o n d e r b e ca u s e h e re f e rr e d

e a rl i e r o n t o T M M a n d m a y b e w h e t h e r f r o m n o w o n i t sh o u l d
b e m a d e cl e a r w h o T M M i s.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

So

that

the

vi e w e r

and

l i st e n e r

can

c o n n e ct a s t h e e vi d e n c e p ro c e e d s.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. M r L o u b s e r d o y o u k n o w w h o T M M i s ?
MR LOUBSER:

Ye s t h e y w e re a cl i e n t o f o u r s w h i c h w e

h a ve – i s a – i s a – I t h i n k i t i s T M M g r o u p a n d w h i c h I
u n d e r st o o d M r M a r i o F e r r e i ra t o h a v e b e e n t h e h e a d o f t h a t
T M M g r o u p a n d e xi st e d .

H e h a d – M r F e r re i r a h a d d i ff e r e n t

entities but we did work for all of them.

Any – any – the

c o n t a ct p e r so n w h e r e h e w o r k e d w a s a l w a y s a M r M a ri o
20

F e r re i r a . We h a d a r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h M r Va n D e r Wa l t s o a n y
w o r k t h a t Mr F e r r e i ra h a d e i t h e r p e r so n a l l y o r t h r o u g h o n e o f
h i s e n t i t i e s M r Va n D e r Wa l t w a s t h e a t t o r n e y t h a t d e a l t w i t h
a l l t h o s e t r a n s a ct i o n s.

S o I d o n o t k n o w a l l t h e s e e n t i t i e s.

T h e o n l y o n e I k n e w i s T M M R e n t a l s b e c a u se w e – t h e r e i s
s o m e o f t h e p r o p e rt i e s t h a t t h e y s o l d w e w e r e r e s p o n si b l e
Page 110 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
f o r t h e t r a n sf e r o f t h o s e p r o p e rt i e s a n d a l s o c o l l e ct r e n t a l s,
a r r e a r r e n t a l s i f t h e y h a d t e n a n t s w h i c h d i d n o t p a y.
ADV SONI SC:

Ta l ki n g a b o u t t r a n sf e r o f p r o p e rt i e s w a s a t

t h a t t i m e L o u b s e r Va n D e r Wa l t I n c o r p o r a t e d i n v o l v e d i n a n y
o f t h e t ra n sf e r s o f t h e s e p ro p e rt i e s?
M R L O U B S E R : A l l t h e se p r o p e rt i e s m e n t i o n e d ?
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s b y M r Va n d e r Wa l t .
MR LOUBSER: I – I am not sure but I am – I believe so.
A D V S O N I S C : Yo u d o n o t b e l i e v e s o .
10

MR LOUBSER: No I believe so.
A D V S O N I S C : Yo u w e r e – o h o k a y.
MR LOUBSER:

I was not personally involved in it but from

what later came to hand it appears that we were in some of
t h e m w e w e r e t h e c o n ve y a n c e r s.
A D V S O N I S C : Yo u w e r e t h e c o n v e y a n ci n g .
M R L O U B S E R : We w e re t h e c o n v e y a n c e r s y e s.
ADV SONI SC:

Wo u l d yo u b e a b l e t o i d e n t i f y t h o s e ?

Th e

p r o p e rt i e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w a s t h i n ki n g M r S o n i w h e t h e r s e e i n g t h a t
20

M r Va n D e r Wa l t i n h i s l e t t e r t h a t M r L o u b se r r e a d m e n t i o n e d
c e rt a i n

names

at

page

122

and

m e n t i o n e d t h e re a r e F e rr e i r a ’s.

two

of

the

people

he

I w o n d e re d w h e t h e r h e

c o u l d s a y w h e t h e r t h e F e r r e i r a t h a t h e i s t a l ki n g a b o u t i s o n e
of these or not and whether also other names that are there
if any…
Page 111 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u w o u l d k n o w w h e t h e r t h e y h a v e a n y

re l e v a n c e .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To . .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s t h a t i s a s y o u p l e a se C h a i r p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s e e a n d M r To m D u b e k.
A D V S O N I S C : D u b e k y e s.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ja.

S o b e f o r e w e m o ve a w a y f r o m t h i s

l e t t e r I w o u l d l i ke t h a t t o b e cl a ri f i e d .
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s.

S o a t p a g e 1 2 2 Mr L o u b s e r – a r e y o u

there?
M R L O U B S E R : Ye s I a m .
ADV SONI SC:

O k a y re m e m b e r w e a s k e d y o u t o re a d t h e

names of those people.
M R L O U B S E R : Ye s.
ADV SONI SC: Now the one you have already mentioned Mr
F e r re i r a .
M R L O U B S E R : Ye s.
20

ADV SONI SC:

N o w h e y o u s a y w a s a s s o ci a t e d w i t h t h e

TMM Group.
M R L O U B S E R : Ye s.
ADV SONI SC:

Which is a group of companies which

i n cl u d e d T M M R e n t a l .
M R L O U B S E R : Ye s.
Page 112 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
ADV

SONI

SC:

Now

what

other

companies

to

your

k n o w l e d g e w a s M r F e r re i r a a s so c i a t e d w i t h ?
M R L O U B S E R : I – I d o n o t k n o w. T h e r e i s T M M R e n t a l a n d
I d o n o t k n o w e x a ct l y h o w t h e T M M G ro u p w a s st r u ct u r e d
who was all.

I w i l l – ye s – I k n o w – w h a t I k n o w i s a

c o m p a n y E S S I k n o w E n g i n e e ri n g S y st e m s S o l u t i o n s w e d i d
w o r k f o r t h e m a s w e l l a n d I k n o w M r F e rr e i r a w a s a l s o – I d o
not know if he was the head of that but I know he has an
involvement in a company called ESS or I know the company
10

SAU that knew them.
ADV SONI SC: And Siyangena?
MR LOUBSER:

S i ya n g e n a I d i d n o t k n o w a t t h a t st a g e

p e r s o n a l l y I d i d n o t kn o w w h o S i y a n g e n a w a s o r h o w t h e y
w e re i n v o l ve d w i t h M a ri o F e rr e i r a . I d i d n o t kn o w t h a t a t t h a t
st a g e s o …
A D V S O N I S C : A t t h a t st a g e a n d n o w ?
MR LOUBSER:
involved

Subsequently it appears that he was also

somehow

as

a

d i r e ct o r

or

a

shareholder

of

Siyangena.
20

A D V S O N I S C : W h o – w h e n d i d y o u d i s c o ve r t h a t ?
MR LOUBSER: I cannot say for certain. Through the media
a n d t h r o u g h t i m e I ca n n o t p u t a s p e ci f i c d a t e o n t h a t .
d i ff i c u l t t o k n o w.

It is

I st i l l d o n o t k n o w h u n d r e d p e r c e n t su r e

w h e t h e r M r F e r re i ra w a s i n v o l v e d i n t h a t c o m p a n y S i y a n g e n a
b u t t h r o u g h r e p o r t s i t j u st c a m e t o m y a t t e n t i o n b u t I k n o w
Page 113 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
c o m p a n y d o c k e t o r d o c u m e n t s o r a n yt h i n g c a n co n f i rm t h a t
b u t I a s s u m e t h r o u g h w h a t I h a ve h e a r d r e a d t h a t h e w a s
i n v o l v e d i n – so m e h o w i n v o l v e d i n t h a t c o m p a n y S i y a n g e n a
and …
A D V S O N I S C : A n d M r To m D u b e k ?
M R L O U B S E R : M r To m D u b e k I a l s o k n e w h i m a s t h e – w a s
the – I think he was the accountant for the – for TMM.

That

i s h o w I k n o w – I h a v e m e t h i m , To m D u b e k a n d I – I w a s
made to know that he was involved with TMM. I think he was
10

the accountant, general accountant.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s w e s a w a n a ff i d a vi t y e st e r d a y a n d I a m

j u st c h e c ki n g t h i s w i t h yo u w h i ch h e d e p o s e d t o i n w h i c h h e
d e s cri b e d h i m s e l f a s t h e C F O o f S i y a n g e n a .

Do you – does

t h a t ri n g a b e l l ?
MR LOUBSER:

I did not know – I knew him as the – as the

– he could have been the CFO of TMM but I did not know
that he was CFO of Siyangena.

I – all I knew that he was

the CFO or accountant for TMM.
ADV SONI SC:
20

T M M y e s.

The only two names that appear

t o ri n g a b e l l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV SONI SC: In …
CHAIRPERSON:

O ka y n o t h a t i s f i n e .

J u st t o r e c a p w h a t

d o e s M r Va n D e r Wa l t s a y i n t h a t p a r a g ra p h 7 a b o u t t h e
p e o p l e t h a t h e m e n t i o n s t h e r e i n cl u d i n g t h e t w o F e rr e i r a ’s
Page 114 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
a n d To m D u b e k ?
MR LOUBSER:

H e s a i d t h a t h e c o n su l t e d w i t h t h e m o v e r a

p e ri o d o f e i g h t y e a r s d u e t o t h e f a ct t h a t L o u b s e r Va n D e r
Wa l t t h ro u g h Ta n y a K r u g e r s h e w a s a c o n v e y a n c e r [ i n d i st i n ct
00:22:16]

st a g e

and

Dina

B o s h o ff

who

was

also

a

c o n ve y a n c e r a t a st a g e re s p o n si b l e f o r v a ri o u s c o n v e y a n ci n g
m a t t e r s o n b e h a l f o f T M M R e n t a l a n d s o m e o f t h e t ra n sf e r
d o cu m e n t s w a s d e l i v e r e d t o t h e i r o ff i c e s o r f r o m t h e i r o ff i c e s
t o o u r o ff i c e s. A n d h e f u rt h e r m e n t i o n s t h a t v a ri o u s l i t i g a t i o n
10

m a t t e r s w e r e d e a l t w i t h a n d a ff i d a vi t s w a s d e l i v e r e d b y
v a r i o u s e m p l o y e e s o f t h e T M M G r o u p t o L o u b s e r Va n D e r
Wa l t .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV SONI SC:

S o a m o n g t h e d o c u m e n t s t h a t M r Va n D e r

Wa l t h a n d e d t o y o u a n d M r Va n W y k t o g e t h e r w i t h h i s l e t t e r
o f t h e 1 8 O ct o b e r I w o u l d l i k e y o u t o l o o k a t p a g e 1 3 8
p l e a se .
M R L O U B S E R : Ye s.
ADV SONI SC:
20

N o w w h a t i s t h a t d o c u m e n t i f yo u c o u l d j u st

d e s cri b e i t ?
M R L O U B S E R : I t i s a n o ff e r t o p u r c h a se e n t e r e d i n t o b y M r
M o n t a n a a n d P r e ci s e Tr a d e I n v e s t f o r t h e p u r c h a s e o f a
p r o p e rt y d e s cri b e d a s E rf 3 5 9 P o rt i o n 0 To w n s h i p P a r k w o o d
f o r a p u r c h a s e p ri c e o f R 6 . 8 m i l l i o n .
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s a n d t h e st r e e t a d d r e s s o f t h a t p r o p e rt y
Page 115 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
you will see it at paragraph 1.2.
M R L O U B S E R : 1 0 N e w p o rt R o a d , P a r k w o o d , J o h a n n e s b u r g .
A D V S O N I S C : A n d t h a t s e t o u t – s o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o I a m s o r r y Mr S o n i .

So this relates to

this

Parkwood

the

so

called

property

or

p r o p e rt y

in

Parkwood.
A D V S O N I S C : T h a t i s c o r re ct C h a i r p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o ka y.
ADV SONI SC:
10

A n d t h i s i s t h e o n e C h a i rp e r s o n y o u w i l l

re c a l l t h a t M r M o n t a n a s o l d t o P re ci s e Tr a d e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

O k a y.

So it is the Parkwood

p r o p e rt y.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y t h a n k y o u p r o c e e d .
ADV SONI SC:

M r C h a i r p e r so n i n a n e ff o rt t o s a v e t i m e

b e ca u s e w e a r e g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h t h e s e m a t t e r s w h e n w e
d e a l w i t h e a c h o f t h e p r o p e rt i e s.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R L O U B S E R : I a m j u st g o i n g t o r e f e r t o t h e d o cu m e n t s s o
20

t h a t w e c a n i d e n t i f y M r Va n D e r Wa l t a s t h e s o u r c e o f t h e
d o cu m e n t s, w h a t t h e y m e a n a n d t h e i r r o l e i n t h e p i c t u r e w e
a r e t r yi n g t o p a i n t w i l l b e p r e se n t e d w h e n t h o se t r a n s a ct i o n s
are dealt with.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t w h a t – w h a t n e e d s t o b e d o n e a n d
t h a t i s w h y I w a s c h e c k i n g t h a t i t re l a t e s t o t h e P a r k w o o d
Page 116 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
p r o p e rt y.
A D V S O N I S C : O h s o r r y y e s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Is

that

we

mention

we

a s so c i a t e

the

d o cu m e n t w i t h t h e p r o p e rt y c o n c e r n e d .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Th i s o n e i s r e l e v a n t t o t h e P a r k w o o d

p r o p e rt y.
A D V S O N I S C : P ro p e rt y ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

A n o t h e r o n e w i l l b e r e l e va n t t o a n o t h e r

p r o p e rt y.
A D V S O N I S C : N o s u r e y e s.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s.

And then can I ask you to look at the

n e xt d o c u m e n t i t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 1 4 5 a n d w h a t i s t h a t
d o cu m e n t ?
M R L O U B S E R : I t i s h e a d e d A d d e n d u m t o O ff e r t o P u r c h a s e
e n t e r e d i n t o b e t w e e n S i p h o L u c k y M o n t a n a a n d P r e ci s e
Tr a d e I n ve st a n d o n t h e s e c o n d p a g e i t c o n t i n u e s.
ADV SONI SC: So…
20

M R L O U B S E R : I t i s a n a d d e n d u m t o a n o ff e r t o p u r c h a se .
ADV SONI SC:

S o t h i s i s a n a d d e n d u m w e re a d i n g t h e t w o

d o cu m e n t s t o g e t h e r t o t h e P a r k w o o d .
M R L O U B S E R : I j u st w a n t t o r e f e r b a c k t o t h e p r e vi o u s o n e
b e ca u s e i n t h e a d d e n d u m i t s a y s a d d e n d u m t o a n o ff e r t o
p u r c h a s e t h e 5 M a y a n d i f I r e f e r b a c k t o t h e p r e vi o u s
Page 117 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
d o cu m e n t i t s e e m s t o b e a n a m e n d m e n t t o t h e P a r k w o o d
s a l e – p r o p e rt y.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e d o c u m e n t a p p e a ri n g a t p a g e s 1 4 5

t o p a g e 1 4 7 r e l a t e s t o t h e P a r k w o o d p r o p e rt y ?
A D V S O N I S C : T h e P a r k w o o d p r o p e rt y.
M R L O U B S E R : Ye s i t i s a n a d d e n d u m t o t h e r e a l o n e .
ADV SONI SC:

N o w I j u st – I a s k yo u t h i s b e c a u s e i t i s a

m a t t e r t h a t i n t ri g u e s m e .
10

M r M o n t a n a se l l s t h e – a n d I a m

n o t a s ki n g y o u t o – t o t e l l m e w h a t i t m e a n s b u t t e l l m e w h a t
y o u r vi e w i s a b o u t t h i s. Mr M o n t a n a s e l l s t h e p r o p e r t y t o M r
Va n D e r Wa l t f o r R 6 . 8 m i l l i o n i n M a y.

I n Ju n e t h e y si g n t h i s

amendment and the amendment at paragraph 2.1 requires
M o n t a n a – M r M o n t a n a t o e ff e ct c e rt a i n i m p r o v e m e n t s a n d
i n st a l l a t i o n s i n t o t h e p r o p e rt y.

Would that – is that your

re a d i n g o f t h a t ?
M R L O U B S E R : B u t t h a t i s w h a t i t s a y s.
A D V S O N I S C : J a . D o e s t h a t so u n d u s u a l t o yo u ?
MR LOUBSER: I cannot comment on that I do not know why
20

t h e y – t h e r e w a s a s u b se q u e n t a d d e n d u m . I w a s n o t a p a rt y
t o t h e a g r e e m e n t a n d I d o kn o w h o w – w h y t h e y p u t i t i n t h a t
w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t i s t h e d a t e o f t h e o ff e r t o p u r c h a se ?
MR LOUBSER: It was in May 2014.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh then…
Page 118 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
MR LOUBSER: The addendum.
MR LOUBSER: June – the addendum is June.
A D V S O N I S C : Wa s si x w e e k s l a t e r C h a i r p e r so n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o ka y.
M R L O U B S E R : J a M a y a l m o st si x w e e k s l a t e r y e s.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e t r a n sf e r h a d n o t t a ke n p l a c e a t t h e

time of the addendum?
MR LOUBSER: No.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o ka y.
10

A D V S O N I S C : T h e n t h e – s o r ry.
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m – I a m r e f l e ct i n g o n y o u r i m p r e s si o n

t h a t i s st r a n g e .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

I thought that was because – that was

b e ca u s e t h e a d d e n d u m w a s d o n e a f t e r t h e t r a n sf e r h a d
t a k e n p l a ce .

But if – if it was before the addendum had

t a k e n p l a c e w h y w o u l d i t b e st r a n g e , I j u st w a n t t o m a k e s u r e
I can follow?
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : E v e n f o r l a t e r w i t n e s s e s.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s, n o , n o I u n d e r st a n d .

Chairperson A

sells to B something for R5million.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S O N I S C : I t i s a p r o p e rt y o r w h a t e v e r i t i s.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
Page 119 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
ADV SONI SC:

T h a t i s a b i n d i n g c o n t r a ct .

B m u st t a k e t h e

p r o p e rt y a n d p a y a R 5 m i l l i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR LOUBSER:

T h e e ff e ct o f t h e a m e n d m e n t i s t o s a y t h a t

b e f o r e I t a k e t h e p r o p e rt y, I a m g o i n g t o r e d u c e t h e a m o u n t I
am

going

to

give

you

because

this

–

these

are

the

improvements you are going to make.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SONI SC: And A willingly agrees to that.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

We l l I – I c a n i m a g i n e t h a t – y o u

m e a n h e a g r e e s t o t h a t w i t h o u t s a yi n g l e t u s a d j u st t h e
p u r c h a s e p ri c e ? Yo u k n o w so I a m t h i n ki n g t h a t i f t h a t – t h e
b u ye r c o u l d co n si d e r a b l y s e l l t o t h e s e l l e r; I k n o w w e h a v e
a g r e e d t h e p ri c e b u t f o r m a y b e I h a ve j u st b e c o m e a w a r e
t h a t t h e c o n d i t i o n o f t h e ki t c h e n i s a ct u a l l y q u i t e b a d .
n o t s e e n i t p r o p e r l y.

I had

I k n o w t h a t I h a ve a l r e a d y si g n e d a n d

y o u h a v e n o o b l i g a t i o n b u t y o u kn o w w h a t I g a v e y o u a ve r y
g o o d p ri c e .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : C a n yo u n o t j u st f i x – a g r e e t o f i x t h i s.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

I t w i l l m e a n a r e d u ct i o n o n t h e p r i ce o n

w h a t yo u w i l l g e t o n yo u r p r o f i t .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t I g a v e y o u m u c h m o r e t h a n a n o rm a l
Page 120 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
profit.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON: So that might be the explanation.
A D V S O N I S C : N o , n o I u n d e r st a n d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV SONI SC:

B u t w h a t – o r t h e p o i n t I a m m a ki n g

C h a i r p e r s o n i s i t c a l l s f o r a n e xp l a n a t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no, no that is fine but I wanted to

m a k e s u re w h e t h e r …
10

A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON: I can follow it.
ADV SONI SC: No sure.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a b e c a u se I h a d t h o u g h t i t w a s st ra n g e

b u t I t h i n k m y t h i n ki n g w a s t h a t i t h a p p e n e d a f t e r t h e t ra n sf e r
w h i c h i s n o t c o rr e ct .
A D V S O N I S C : N o o f c o u r se .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s.

T h e n e xt d o cu m e n t i s a n o ff e r t o

p u r c h a s e m a d e b y P r e ci s e Tr a d e t o M r K o h l e r i n r e s p e ct 11 9
20

E m p i re p l a c e , S a n d h u r st , i s t h a t co rr e ct ? I t a p p e a r s a t p a g e
148.
M R L O U B S E R : A t p a g e 1 4 8 . T h a t p u r p o rt s t o b e ye s .
A D V S O N I S C : C h a i r p e r so n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o rr y 1 4 8 ?
ADV SONI SC: 148.
Page 121 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y n o w a l l t h e d o c u m e n t s t h a t yo u a r e

g o i n g t o r e f e r t o a s y o u a s k M r L o u b s e r q u e st i o n s i s i t
d o cu m e n t s t h a t w e re f u rn i sh e d t o Mr L o u b s e r a n d Mr Va n
W y k b y M r Va n D e r Wa l t ?
M R L O U B S E R : T h a t i s c o r re ct .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay alight.
ADV SONI SC:

A n d C h a i r p e r s o n c a n I j u st a g a i n f o r y o u r

o w n o ri e n t a t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R L O U B S E R : T h i s i s t h e S a n d h u r st p r o p e rt y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y t h a t i s i m p o rt a n t j a .

This – the

o ff e r t o p u r c h a s e a t p a g e 1 4 8 r e l a t e s t o t h e S a n d h u r st
p r o p e rt y.
A D V S O N I S C : T h e S a n d h u r st p r o p e rt y y e s.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV SONI SC:

T h e n e xt d o c u m e n t i s a n o ff e r t o p u r c h a s e

m a d e a g a i n b y P r e ci s e Tr a d e t o o n [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 3 2 : 1 9 ]
g u e st h o u s e , i s t h a t co r r e ct M r L o u b s e r ?
M R L O U B S E R : T h a t i s c o r re ct .
20

CHAIRPERSON: What page is that?
ADV SONI SC: Oh sorry page 154 Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: 154.
M R L O U B S E R : Ye s i t a p p e a r s s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To w h i c h p r o p e rt y d o e s t h i s o n e r e f l e ct ?
M R L O U B S E R : T h i s i s t h e Wa t e r kl o o f p r o p e rt y C h a i r p e r s o n .
Page 122 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:
d o cu m e n t

–

Wa t e r kl o o f p r o p e rt y.

o ff e r

to

purchase

–

Okay that is the
p u r c h a se

and

sale

a g r e e m e n t f ro m p a g e s – f ro m p a g e 1 5 4 u p t o …
A D V S O N I S C : Fi l e 1 6 3 .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SONI SC: 163.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh there.

We l l t h e a g r e e m e n t g o e s u p t o

159 but maybe there is an annexure?
ADV SONI SC:
10

They all annexures to the same document

Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay up to 163.
A D V S O N I S C : 1 6 3 ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a l ri g h t . T h a n k y o u .
ADV SONI SC:

A s y o u p l e a se C h a i rp e r s o n .

Then Mr

L o u b s e r ca n I a s k y o u t o l o o k a t p a g e 1 6 4 .
M R L O U B S E R : Ye s I d o h a v e i t i n f ro n t o f m e .
ADV SONI SC:

N o w w h e n y o u w e r e e x p l a i n i n g w h a t Mr Va n

D e r Wa l t s a i d b e c a u s e h e s a i d t h a t h e h a d e n t e r e d i n t o
c o n t r a ct s w i t h c e rt a i n p e o p l e w h o p r o vi d e d f u n d s f o r t h e
20

p r o p e rt y, i s t h a t ri g h t ?
MR LOUBSER:

Ye s i n h i s r e s p o n s e h e sa i d h e – P r e ci s e

Tr a d e I n ve st w a s f u n d e d b y ce rt a i n i n v e st o r s.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
M R L O U B S E R : H e m e n t i o n e d G M M , P i m e n t e l a n d C l a n cy.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
Page 123 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
M R L O U B S E R : I n v e st o r s.
A D V S O N I S C : S o t h i s i s o n e o f t h e i n ve st o r s ?
M R L O U B S E R : Ye s.
ADV SONI SC: Mr Pimentel?
M R L O U B S E R : P i m e n t e l y e s.
ADV SONI SC:

Yo u w i l l s e e M r L o u b s e r a n d I j u st w a n t t o

c o r r e ct so m e t h i n g t h a t t h i s i s a n a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n M r
P i m e n t e l a n d P r e c i s e Tr a d e .
M R L O U B S E R : T h a t i s c o r re ct .
10

A D V S O N I S C : A n d t h e re a s o n i t i s i m p o rt a n t i s I w i l l s h o w
y o u a d i ff e re n c e i n a m o m e n t w i t h a d i ff e r e n t c o n t r a ct .
M R L O U B S E R : O k a y.
ADV SONI SC:

A n d i n t e rm s o f t h i s c o n t r a ct i f y o u l o o k a t

p a r a g ra p h 2 . 1 M r P i m e n t e l a g r e e s t o …
CHAIRPERSON: That is 2.1 at page 165.
ADV SONI SC: 165 Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S O N I S C : M r P i m e n t e l u n d e rt a k e s t o i n ve st a m a xi m u m
of R20 million in this joint venture.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O v e r a p e ri o d o f t w e l v e m o n t h s.
A D V S O N I S C : O v e r a p e r i o d o f t w e l v e m o n t h s. S o r ry. I s. . .
i s. . . i s t h a t ?
M R L O U B S E R : I s e e t h a t , y e s.
ADV SONI SC:

N o w t h e n e xt d o c u m e n t w h i c h a p p e a r s a t

p a g e 1 7 0 . . . o h , so rr y. C a n I j u st m a k e o n e o t h e r p o i n t ? Yo u
Page 124 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
do not need to go to it.

I t i s. . . t h i s d o cu m e n t i s d a t e d t h e

3 r d o f N o v e m b e r. I s t h a t c o rr e ct ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n t h e y e a r, w h e n ?
A D V S O N I S C : O h , so r ry. 2 0 1 4 C h a i rp e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
MR LOUBSER: Can I...
ADV SONI SC:

If you look at page 169, you will see the

date of... of...
MR LOUBSER: The 3rd of...
10

A D V S O N I S C : 3 r d o f N o v e m b e r.
M R L O U B S E R : J a , t h e h a n d w ri t i n g i s. . .
A D V S O N I S C : [ l a u g h s] S o i t i s y o u r p a rt n e r.
MR LOUBSER: So, let... let us assume.
A D V S O N I S C : [ l a u g h s]
M R L O U B S E R : N o v e m b e r . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] f o u rt e e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s]
M R L O U B S E R : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ?
A D V S O N I S C : M a y I j u st a s k y o u ? W h o i s C a l l i t z ?

20

M R L O U B S E R : U h , t h e s e c re t a ry. J a .
A D V S O N I S C : A t y o u r f i rm ?
M R L O U B S E R : A t o u r f i rm , y e s.
A D V S O N I S C : I s s h e st i l l t h e r e ?
M R L O U B S E R : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

U h , j u st t o m e n t i o n .
Page 125 of 253

When you ask Mr

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
L o u b s e r a b o u t w h o C a l i t z i s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V S O N I S C : A h , ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . y o u a r e r e f e r ri n g t o a p e r s o n w h o si g n e d
as a witness?
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, w h o si g n e d a s a w i t n e s s. Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh, ja.

On... on... on... on the agreement

at page 169?
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

ADV SONI SC:

T h e n t h e n e xt d o c u m e n t i s a n e xt c o n t r a ct

between

Edward

Mark

C l a n c y( ? )[ 0 0 : 0 1 : 2 7 ]

and

P re ci s e

Tr a d e . I t st a rt s a t p a g e 1 7 0 . Wo u l d I b e c o rr e ct u h . . . ?
M R L O U B S E R : Ye s.
ADV SONI SC: And if you look at paragraph 2.1. Mr Clancy
u n d e rt a ke s t o i n v e st a m a xi m u m a m o u n t o f R 2 5 0 0 , 0 0 i n t h e
j o i n t ve n t u re o v e r t h e p e ri o d o f 1 2 - m o n t h s.
M R L O U B S E R : Ye s.
ADV SONI SC:

N o w i f yo u l o o k a t p a g e 1 7 5 .

What is the

date of this document?
20

MR LOUBSER: 3 November 2014.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. A n d w h o si g n s a s a w i t n e s s.
M R L O U B S E R : U h , C a rl i t z. I t s e e m s t o b e C a rl i t z.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
MR LOUBSER:

I t h i n k t h a t . . . t h a t i s. . . s h e i s a ct u a l l y a

re c e p t i o n i st , Vi vi e n n e C a rl i t z i n o u r f i rm .
Page 126 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:

[ I n d i st i n ct ] a p p e a r i n g f o r o r a b o v e t h e

n a m e , P r e ci s e Tr a d e . I s t h a t o f M r Va n d e r Wa l t ?
M R L O U B S E R : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l ri g h t .
ADV SONI SC:

I f I . . . ca n I a s k y o u t o l o o k a t t h e n e xt

d o cu m e n t w h i c h st a rt s a t p a g e 1 8 0 .

Um, what is this

d o cu m e n t u h , o n t h e f a c e i t u h , M r L o u b s e r ?
MR

LOUBSER:

It

appears

to

be

a

memorandum

a g r e e m e n t e n t e r e d i n t o b e t w e e n T M M H o l d i n g s.
10

of

M r M a ri o

F e r re i r a a n d M r J a n A d ri a a n v a n d e r Wa l t .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
M R L O U B S E R : U m , t e rm o f a g r e e m e n t u h . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
ADV SONI SC:

U h , j u st . . . j u st b e f o re t h a t .

Uh, TMM

H o l d i n g s, w h o re p re s e n t s T M M H o l d i n g s. . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
M R L O U B S E R : U h . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V S O N I S C : . . . i n r e s p e ct o f t h i s c o n t r a ct ?
MR LOUBSER:

Ye s.

From here, it is a... it is entered by

MJA Ferreira.
A D V S O N I S C : A n d t h a t i s M a ri o F e r r e i ra ?
20

M R L O U B S E R : U h , ye s. M a ri o F e r re i r a .
ADV SONI SC:

A l l ri g h t .

And this agreement, unlike the

agreement uh, that Mr Clancy and Mr Pimentel signed is with
M r Va n d e r Wa l t i n h i s p e r s o n a l c a p a ci t y. I s t h a t c o r re ct ?
MR LOUBSER:

Ye s, i t i s a n a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n t h r e e

p a rt i e s, T M M , F e r re i r a a n d Va n d e r Wa l t p e r s o n a l l y.
Page 127 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
ADV SONI SC:
together

Ye s.

re f e rr e d

A n d F e rr e i r a a n d T M M H o l d i n g s a r e

to

as

TMM.

If

you...

if

you

l o o k. . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
MR LOUBSER:

I t p ro vi d e s i n p a g e . . . p a r a g r a p h 1 . 1 o f t h e

agreement.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s. A n d u n d e r t h e i r n a m e s a t p a g e 1 8 0 .
M R L O U B S E R : Ye s.
A D V S O N I S C : A n d y o u w i l l se e t h e r e t h a t u n l i k e Mr C l a n c y
a n d M r P i m e n t e l t h e ri g h t t h a t i s g i v e n t o . . . o r. . . t h e . . . t h e . . .
10

w h e r e t h e y h a v e t o p a y.

W h a t t h i s a g r e e m e n t d o e s i s, i t

a l l o w s M r F e r re i r a . . . o h , s o r r y.

M r Va n d e r Wa l t t o p r e s e n t

a n y d e a l s t h a t c o m e h i s w a y t o T M M w h o h a v e t h e ri g h t t o
f i r st r e f u sa l t o t h a t d e a l . I s t h a t c o r re ct ?
MR LOUBSER: That is what it appears from the agreement,
y e s.
ADV SONI SC:

And then, if you look at paragraph 5.

see that it is not only local.

Yo u

Will you read paragraph 5 into

the record Mr Loubser?
MR LOUBSER:
20

“ T h e p a rt i e s a g re e d t h a t t h i s a g re e m e n t w i l l

b e a p p l i c a b l e f o r a l l l o c a l a n d i n t e r n a t i o n a l i n v e st m e n t s”.
ADV SONI SC: And if you look at page 185. When was this
a g r e e m e n t si g n e d ?
M R L O U B S E R : I t i s si g n e d b y T M M o n t h e 1 4 t h o f M a r c h b y
M r F e rr e i r a . A l s o , o n a f o rm . . . u h , j a , t h e 1 4 t h o f M a r c h . Th e
h a n d w ri t i n g i s n o t cl e a r. T h e 1 4 t h o f M a r c h 2 0 1 2 i t a p p e a r s.
Page 128 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
A D V S O N I S C : A n d M r Va n d e r Wa l t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R L O U B S E R : J a , a l l . . . a l l o f t h e m i t a p p e a r s.
ADV SONI SC:

D o yo u r e co g n i s e t h e si g n a t u r e o f t h e

witness?
M R L O U B S E R : U h , ye s.
ADV SONI SC: Who is that?
M R L O U B S E R : T h a t i s a l s o a s e cr e t a r y a t o u r f i rm .
ADV SONI SC: Oh.
MR LOUBSER:
10

O h , a p r e vi o u s . . . a p re v i o u s s e cr e t a ry.

S o rr y. C o n n i e S t e i g e r.
CHAIRPERSON: What is the name?
MR LOUBSER:

C o n n i e . . . I t h i n k i t i s. . . C o n n i e F e r r e i ra

S t e i g e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
A D V S O N I S C : U n r e l a t e d t o M r F e r re i r a .
MR LOUBSER: Unrelated.
ADV SONI SC: Ja.
M R L O U B S E R : S h e i s n o l o n g e r w i t h t h e f i rm .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
20

M r L o u b s e r.

T h e n i f y o u l o o k a t t h e n e xt d o c u m e n t

It is at page 186.

A n d c a n y o u d e s cr i b e t h a t

d o cu m e n t ? P a g e 1 8 6 .
M R L O U B S E R : I t a p p e a r s t o b e a n a d d e n d u m t o a p re v i o u s
a g r e e m e n t . I t d o e s n o t s p e ci f y w h i c h . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : U h , j u st r a i s e y o u r vo i c e a n d r e p e a t a g a i n .
MR LOUBSER:

Oh, it appears to be an addendum to the
Page 129 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
p r e vi o u s

agreement.

It

does

not

really

sp e ci f y

which

a g r e e m e n t b u t i t s e e m s t o b e a n a d d e n d u m t o a p re v i o u s
agreement.
A D V S O N I S C : A l ri g h t . A n d w h a t t h i s a g r e e m e n t sa y s. . . i f I
c o u l d j u st a s k y o u t o s u m m a ri s e p a g e 1 8 7 , p a ra g r a p h 1 a n d
2?
C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V S O N I S C : O h , so r ry. O n e , t w o a n d t h r e e . S o rr y.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

does

it

not?

I t a p p e a r s t o b e a n a g re e m e n t o n i t s o w n ,
It

does

not

seem

to

amend

any

other

quite

ri g h t

a g r e e m e n t , d o e s i t ? O n t h e s e t e rm s.
ADV

SONI

SC:

Uh,

not.

Yo u . . .

It

se e m s

you

are

Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:

H’m.

to

be

a

st a n d a l o n e

agreement.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

H’m.

O k a y.

Yo u . y o u a c c e p t t h a t Mr

Loubser?
M R L O U B S E R : U h . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O r y o u a r e n o t su r e ?
M R L O U B S E R : N o u h . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

It does not seem to be an addendum

t o . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
M R L O U B S E R : I n . . . e i t h e r t h o s e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t s a y s a d d e n d u m . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
Page 130 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
M R L O U B S E R : I t i s. . . i t i s st a rt i n g . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t p a g e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]
M E C H A N I C A L I N T E R R U P TI O N : [ 0 0 : 0 7 : 5 4 ]
CHAIRPERSON:

...when one reads paragraph 1 uh, it

s e e m s t o b e j u st u h , u h , f r e s h . . . a st a n d a l o n e a g r e e m e n t .
M R L O U B S E R : I t a p p e a r s so .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s, b e c a u s e t h e re i s n o r e f e re n c e t o t h a t

agreement at all Chairperson.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. H ’ m .
ADV SONI SC:

N o w t h i s t e a m s w i t h t h r e e s e p a r a t e i s s u e s.

T h e Ve n i c e Vi l l a g e D e v e l o p m e n t .

D o y o u k n o w a n yt h i n g

about that?
MR LOUBSER: Uh, I know there was a development with Mr
Va n d e r Wa l t w i t h i n v o l v e d i n h i s p e r s o n a l c a p a ci t y w i t h u h ,
M r F e r r e i ra .

I do not know if he was a shareholder or how

h e w a s i n v o l ve d b u t I k n e w a b o u t a d e ve l o p m e n t t h a t . . . t h a t
appears

with

that.

I

knew

t h e y. . .

they

were

somehow

i n v o l v e d . H o w. . .
20

A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
M R L O U B S E R : A l s o , a d i r e ct o r o f t h i s Ve n i c e Vi l l a g e o r. . . I
d o n o t k n o w.

B u t I k n e w. . . I h a v e h e a r d i n t h e p a s si n g

m e n t i o n e d t h a t Ve n i c e Vi l l a g e .
ADV SONI SC:

O k a y.

A n d h i s r e w a rd w o u l d b e s e t o u t a t

p a r a g ra p h 1 . 1 . W h a t i s t h a t ?
Page 131 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
MR LOUBSER:

U h , t h e p a rt i e s s p e ci f i c a l l y a g r e e t h a t Va n

d e r Wa l t w i l l b e e n t i t l e d t o r e c e i v e 5 % r e f e rr a l co m m i s si o n
o n e a c h a n d e v e r y u n i t so l d o f t h i s d e v e l o p m e n t t o t h i r d
p a rt i e s.
A D V S O N I S C : T h e . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
M R L O U B S E R : T h e s e co n d p a rt . I t i s a h e a d i n g , P o n t o n ( ? )
[00:09:32] loan.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
M R L O U B S E R : T h e p a rt i e s a g r e e t h a t o n d a t e o f r e p a ym e n t
10

a n d f u l f i l m e n t o f t h e l o a n a g r e e m e n t o f P o n t o n , Va n d e r Wa l t
w i l l r e c e i v e a r e f e rr a l co m m i s si o n o f 1 7 % . A n d t h e t h i rd o n e
re l a t e s t o . . . i t s h e a d i n g , We t l a n d s C o u n t r y R e t r e a t .
T h e p a rt i e s a g r e e t h a t Va n d e r Wa l t f a ci l i t a t e d t h e
p u r c h a s e o f t h e s h a r e s t h r o u g h Tri p l e Tr a d e a n d I n v e st a n d
Va n d e r Wa l t w i l l b e e n t i t l e d t o r e f e r. . . . re c e i v e a re f e r r a l
c o m m i s si o n .
Uh, it sets out sale of game.
nett profit.

He is entitled 30% of the

H e i s a l s o e n t i t l e d t o 1 0 % o r. . . t h a t i s a f t e r t h e

b u si n e s s p l a n i s b e e n a p p r o v e d , t h e p a rt i e s w i l l a g r e e t o
20

e i t h e r c o n v e rt t h e re f e rr a l c o m m i s s i o n r e c e i v e d b y Va n d e r
Wa l t i n t o 1 0 % s h a re s i n t o Tr i p l e Tr a d e a n d I n ve st .
ADV SONI SC:

A n d t h e n i t r e c o r d s ce rt a i n p a y m e n t s t h a t

w e re r e c e i ve d u h . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R L O U B S E R : Ye s.
ADV SONI SC: Do you have any idea what that is about?
Page 132 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
M R L O U B S E R : U h , i t r e p o rt s p a ym e n t t h a t i s b e i n g r e c e i v e d
b y Va n d e r Wa l t i n t e rm s o f t h e . . . I a s s u m e t h e a g r e e m e n t
w h i c h h e l i st s d a t e s a n d a m o u n t s w h i c h t o t a l s R 4 5 0 4 0 2 , 6 9 .
ADV SONI SC:

N o w, d o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r M r Va n d e r Wa l t

a c c o u n t e d t o t h e f i rm f o r t h e s e a m o u n t s t h a t h e l i st s h e r e ?
MR LOUBSER: No, he did not.
ADV SONI SC: He did not?
MR LOUBSER: No.
ADV SONI SC:
10

N o w, w h e n y o u g e t t h e s e d o c u m e n t s, I t a k e

i t . . . yo u a r e n o t g o i n g t o sa y w e r e o u t r a g e d b u t y o u w e r e
c o n ce r n e d t h a t M r Va n d e r Wa l t i s re c e i vi n g t h i s m o n e y t h a t
i s n o t g o i n g i n t o t h e b u si n e s s o r d i d t h a t n o t co n c e rn y o u ?
MR LOUBSER:

H e . . . u h , M r Va n d e r Wa l t u m , h a s a l w a y s

b e e n a n i n ve st o r i n d i ff e r e n t co m p a n i e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o rr y. H e h a s a l w a y s b e e n . . . ?
MR LOUBSER:

He was always uh... always uh... it was not

st ra n g e b e ca u s e h e e n t e r e d i n t o a g r e e m e n t s w i t h v a r i o u s
p a rt i e s, f r i e n d s a n d t o d e v e l o p p r o p e rt i e s.
B u t w h e n h e sh o w e d m e t h i s u m , h e e x p l a i n e d i t , t h i s i s
20

w o r k w h i c h h e h a d d o n e e a rl y i n t h e m o r n i n g s, a f t e r h o u r s,
o v e r w e e k e n d s, s o m e t h i n g . . . a n a g re e m e n t h e e n t e r e d o n i t s
o w n w i t h u h , w i t h . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]
M E C H A N I C A L I N T E R R U P TI O N
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
MR LOUBSER: Indeed he did.
Page 133 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:

...or

w a s. . .

was

this

work

that

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R L O U B S E R : H e d i d o n h i s o w n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

...he was allowed to earn income if he did

i t o u t s i d e o f n o r m a l w o r ki n g h o u r s ?
M R L O U B S E R : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON: He was allowed to do that?
M R L O U B S E R : H e w a s n o t . . . h e n e v e r sp e ci f i c a l l y d i s cl o s e d
i t t o m e b u t I d i d n o t t a ke i s s u e w i t h i t , t h e f a ct t h a t h e
10

e a r n e d m o n e y w h i c h I k n e w.

H e w a s w o r ki n g l a t e a t n i g h t

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
MR LOUBSER: ...with other people involved.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. B u t w h a t I a m s a yi n g i s u m , a s f a r a s
y o u kn o w . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
MR SONI SC:

So can I then come back to page 197 and

the last three questions you asked there and your question
at paragraph 9 seems to suggest that you are right that the
handwritten
20

inscription

would

have

been

entered

into

before it was given to you because you then ask what does
TMM loan and TMM agreement mean, is that correct?
MR LOUBSER:

Ye s . S o , M r C h a i r p e r s o n , m y a s s u m p t i o n s

were mine, I accept that.
MR SONI SC:

And then you ask him about other payments

and then you ask him a question about Mr Montana.
Page 134 of 253

I

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
would like to deal with each of those matters please.

So

your question at paragraph 9 on page 197 is what?
MR LOUBSER:

“ Yo u m a d e c e r t a i n n o t e s o n t h e b a n k

statement, TMM loan and TMM agreement.

Kindly

distinguish between the two.”
MR SONI SC:

And what is his answer?

MR LOUBSER:

He says …[intervenes]

MR SONI SC:

It appears at page 201, paragraph 18,

Chairperson.
10

MR LOUBSER:

What I understood from his explanation is

TMM loan, so loan that he received from TMM, personal
l o a n o r a l o a n b e t w e e n P r e c i s e Tr a d e a n d T M M .
that

he

received

from

–

money

from

and

It is loan
the

TMM

agreement, I assumed was the agreement where TMM had
to

pay

certain

commissions

or

work

he

had

done

p e r s o n a l l y.
MR SONI SC:

Right and then paragraph 10 you ask him if

he was aware of the investigation.
MR LOUBSER:
20

Ye s , I a s k e d i f h e i s a w a r e o f a n y

investigation by SAPD or any other instance which – ja.
MR SONI SC:

And what was his answer?

MR LOUBSER:

He said - I translate:

“Ek is nie bewus...”
Or it is in Afrikaans, I am not aware of any …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y, I t h i n k I h a v e l o s t y o u o r y o u
Page 135 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
have lost me. Paragraph 10 at which page?
MR SONI SC:

P a g e 2 0 1 , C h a i r p e r s o n , t h e a n s w e r.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR LOUBSER:

201.
At paragraph 19, page 201.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

Oh.

Ja,

I

think

you

said

at

paragraph 10 and I was looking at – on the side which is
paragraph 19.
MR SONI SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR SONI SC:

So that is at paragraph 10?

At paragraph 10, yes.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, but that appears at paragraph 19,

o k a y.
MR SONI SC:
MR LOUBSER:

And what was his answer?
In response to my question if he is aware

any investigation by SAPD or any other instances, he
responded, he said he is not aware of any investigation of
whatever nature by any instance against him personally or
a g a i n s t P r e c i s e Tr a d e a n d I n v e s t .
MR SONI SC:
20

And then paragraph 10 at page 197, what

was the question?
MR LOUBSER:
MR SONI SC:
MR LOUBSER:
MR SONI SC:
MR LOUBSER:

It is the second 10.
S o r r y, t h e s e c o n d 1 0 , y e s .
The second 10.
Ye s .
Then I asked whether Mr Montana is in
Page 136 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
a n y – e n i g s i n s , a n y – i n v o l v e d t o t h e e n t i t y.
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y, w h a t d i d y o u – y o u a s k e d h i m

whether he knew Mr Montana?
MR LOUBSER:

Ja, maybe to rephrase, I asked whether

Mr Montana is in any way involved to the entity Precise
Tr a d e a n d I n v e s t a n d i f s o , t h e n a t u r e o f h i s i n v o l v e m e n t .
And also asked him were there were at any stage payments
m a d e t o h i m o u t o f t h a t P r e c i s e Tr a d e a n d I n v e s t a c c o u n t
except for the purchase of the property and he responded
10

to that.
MR SONI SC:

That is at page 202, paragraph 20, out

paragraph 10.2, is that correct?
MR LOUBSER:
shareholder in
d i r e c t o r.

Ye s , I a m t h e s o l e – I a m h u n d r e d p e r c e n t
P r e c i s e Tr a d e

and

Invest

and

the

sole

No final agreement could be finalized between

P r e c i s e Tr a d e a n d I n v e s t a n d M r M o n t a n a d u e t o v a r i o u s
reasons but specifically the way how to deal with property

20

transactions

and

shortage

funds.

of

investments
There

as
was

well

as

Montana’s

negotiations

with

–

regarding a possible joint venture in various properties but
the parties decided not to proceed with the joint venture.

I

c o n f i r m t h a t a l l f i v e t h e p r o p e r t i e s b e l o n g t o P r e c i s e Tr a d e
and Invest.
And

then,

as

the

second

part

of

my

question,

w h e t h e r a n y p a y m e n t s w a s m a d e b y P r e c i s e Tr a d e a n d
Page 137 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
Invest to Montana other than the purchase price, he says a
loan of R1.3 million was granted to Mr Montana which are
clearly set out in a loan agreement.
MR SONI SC:

So I just want to go back to that last issue,

M r L o u b s e r, d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t o m e a n t h a t t h e l o a n
h a d b e e n m a d e t h r o u g h t h e P r e c i s e Tr a d e a c c o u n t ?
MR LOUBSER:
MR SONI SC:

Ye s .
Can I then ask you to look at the account –

t h e b a n k a c c o u n t o f P r e c i s e Tr a d e w h i c h , a s w e h a v e
10

already indicated, starts at page 90 and goes up to page
193.
MR LOUBSER:
MR SONI SC:

Ye s .
So perhaps I should just deal with the last

point because it is fresh in everybody’s mind. He says that
a loan was made to Mr Montana of R1,3 million on the 20
February 2015.
MR LOUBSER:

Ye s .

MR SONI SC:

O k a y.

May I just ask, if one looks at the

bank account itself, I have looked for it but I have not seen
20

such an amount being debited to the account.

So if you

look at page 194.
MR LOUBSER:
MR SONI SC:

Ye s .
That is the February transactions.

MR LOUBSER:

Ye s .

MR SONI SC:

Can you see – and I am asking because I
Page 138 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
h a v e l o o k e d f o r i t , t o t a l l y.
MR LOUBSER:
MR SONI SC:
MR LOUBSER:

S o r r y, y o u a r e l o o k i n g a t p a g e ?
P a g e 1 9 4 . S o r r y, 1 9 1 .
1 9 1 d e a l s w i t h N o v e m b e r – s o r r y, 1 9 1 , m y

apologies. There he says …[intervenes]
MR SONI SC:

If you look from the bottom you will see the

l a s t e n t r y i s m a d e o n t h e 2 8 F e b r u a r y.
MR LOUBSER:
MR SONI SC:
10

Ye s , I s e e t h a t .
And if you went up you will see there is an

entry on the 20 February but that is for R2 million.
MR LOUBSER:
MR SONI SC:

Ye s .
But there is no indication that on 20

February R1,3 million was given to Mr Montana.
MR LOUBSER:
MR SONI SC:

Ye s .
And you will see it is in relation to – if you

look at page 191, the account reflects that that was in
r e s p e c t o f t h e P a r k w o o d p r o p e r t y.

20

MR LOUBSER:

Ye s . E r f 3 5 9 , P a r k w o o d .

MR SONI SC:

Ye s .

M r L o u b s e r, i t i s n o t m y i n t e n t i o n t o

suggest that there is something wrong here, I am just
saying there is a bit of a disjuncture between what Mr van
d e r Wa l t s a i d i n h i s r e s p o n s e a n d t h a t t h e b a n k a c c o u n t
reflects. I am just trying to point that out through you.
MR LOUBSER:

I can – I do not – I am not here at all to

t r y a n d e x p l a i n w h a t M r v a n d e r Wa l t d i d [ i n a u d i b l e –
Page 139 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
speaking simultaneously]
MR SONI SC:

No, no, I am not asking, I am just pointing

it out.
MR LOUBSER:

But all I can point out is, in his answer at

page 202 he said a loan was granted to Montana on the 20
February 2015 which is clearly set out in a loan agreement.
U n f o r t u n a t e l y, l o a n a g r e e m e n t w a s n o t a n n e x e d t o i t b u t a
reading of that does not necessarily mean the R1.3 million
w a s p a i d o n t h e 2 0 F e b r u a r y, i t c o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e
10

agreement was made – done on the 20 February 2015 but
to be paid in March of April. I am not saying that.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well, I am not sure whether there is any

issue between the two of you because the lighting here is
quite bad, I think a few days ago I asked if somebody could
arrange to get some lights that could help me here.

So

when you were referring Mr Loubser to payment at page
1 9 1 , I t h i n k o f 2 0 F e b r u a r y, I w a s t r y i n g t o h a v e a l o o k h e r e
and I was expecting to see in the entries reference to Mr
Montana but I was not able to see so I am not sure, so –
20

but I got the impression that there is some issue about
some question or there is no issue?
MR SONI SC:

Chairperson, all I have a duty to do is, the

witness is presented documents to say in respect of the
documents that he is presenting – and I know [inaudible –
speaking simultaneously]
Page 140 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:
MR

LOUBSER:

Ye s .
Is

there

is

–

there

appears

to

be

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no, I understand that, I see – I got

the impression that Mr Loubser was not prepared to give
an answer to a question, is that correct or is that not
correct?
MR LOUBSER:

10

No, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON:

O h , o k a y.

MR LOUBSER:

Not at all, I more than willing to answer

any questions, if I understand the question …[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh,

o k a y,

alright.

I

did

not

hear

everything but I understood Mr Soni to simply want to
check with you whether his understanding of this document
would be the same as yours.
MR LOUBSER:

No, fine.

CHAIRPERSON:

In relation to – with reference to what Mr

v a n d e r Wa l t h a d s a i d . O n t h e f a c t o f i t t h a t d i d n o t a p p e a r
to me to be a problem, ja.
20

MR LOUBSER:

No, no, definitely no …[intervenes]

CHAIRPERSON:
MR LOUBSER:

There is no problem.
I mean, if for clarity sake Mr Soni can put

the question to me again, I might…
MR SONI SC:

S o , M r L o u b s e r, t h i s i s m y d i f f i c u l t y, w e a r e

trying to work out where the monies reflected in the bank
Page 141 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
account went to and tally it with the explanation given to
M r v a n d e r Wa l t – I m e a n , b y M r v a n d e r Wa l t t o y o u .

Now

he says, when you ask him specifically about Mr Montana,
he says we gave – I gave must Montana a loan of R1,3
million.
MR LOUBSER:
MR SONI SC:

Ye s .
Now I am – and I would have expected that

there would be an entry that reflects a debit of R1,3 million
around that period.
10

Now I was I just pointing out it does

not appear to be so.
MR GREEN:

I t d o e s n o t a p p e a r.

MR SONI SC:

So that is…

MR LOUBSER:
MR SONI SC:

I a g r e e , i t d o e s n o t a p p e a r, t h a n k s .
And there is no reflection of a payment to

Montana during that period – can I just point this out again
and again so that we have it on record, he makes, for
example, on the 18 July at page 190 – you will see he talks
about the Montana payment.

On the 18 July again, he

talks about another Montana payment and then on 24 July
20

h e t a l k s a b o u t T L M a n d t h a t I u n d e r s t a n d i s Ts h e p o L u c k y
Montana. That is Mr Montana.
So those three I could relate to Mr Montana and
that was the only purpose of my question.
MR LOUBSER:
CHAIRPERSON:

That is correct.
I a m s o r r y, y o u s a y T M M a s r e f l e c t e d i n
Page 142 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
handwritten form at page 190 you understand to be a
reference to Mr Montana?
MR SONI SC:

No, not TMM, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

Ja?
On the 24 – at page 190, on the 24 July

2014 there is an amount – a payment of R400 000 and you
will see in the bank statement it is said the reference is
TLM.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR SONI SC:

Oh, now I can see, TLM.

That is right.

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s a y t h e r e i s a h a n d w r i t t e n T M M , s o I

thought you were saying TMM, you say TLM.
MR SONI SC:

TLM.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

O k a y.
So I am merely pointing out that where

there appears to be a reference to Mr Montana it coincides
w i t h w h a t M r v a n d e r Wa l t g i v e s i n h i s b r e a k d o w n .
N o w c a n I j u s t a s k y o u , M r L o u b s e r, b e c a u s e i f y o u
are not aware of this, all we can ask you to do is to confirm
20

that all these documents were given to you with these
handwritten inscriptions there and knowing Mr van der
Wa l t ’ s h a n d w r i t i n g y o u s a y t h a t t h a t h a n d w r i t i n g i s h i s
handwriting.
MR LOUBSER:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
Yo u d o n o t k n o w a b o u t t h e f a c t o f t h e
Page 143 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
transactions, the payments made into the accounts and the
payment made from the account.
MR LOUBSER:

No, I do not.

CHAIRPERSON:

And all you can do is rely on what Mr

v a n d e r Wa l t s a i d .
MR LOUBSER:

What he answered.

MR SONI SC:

I just – if I could ask one final question

because it is quite relevant to this.

If you look at the very

first entry in the bank account or the transaction history we
10

were given, it is on the 18 June 2014, am I correct?
MR LOUBSER:

Ye s .

MR SONI SC:

And that is a deposit of R1,85 million, is

that correct?
MR LOUBSER:
MR SONI SC:

Ye s .
The second entry is on the same date, the

18 June 2014 and there is a deposit of R400 million –
s o r r y, R 4 m i l l i o n .
MR LOUBSER:
MR SONI SC:
20

Ye s .
R i g h t . A n d t o t h a t M r v a n d e r Wa l t s a y s i s

the TMM loan, as he describes it.
MR LOUBSER:
MR SONI SC:

Ye s .
Then immediately after that there is a

payment on the very same day of R2,25 million.
MR LOUBSER:
MR SONI SC:

Ye s .
And that is said to be in regard to Precise.
Page 144 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

Regard to?

To P r e c i s e a s r e f l e c t e d i n … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON:

Is that where he has written guarantee

or something?
MR SONI SC:

No, no, no.

Next to – under the date

18/06/2014 it says withdrawal and in the line immediately
under that the bank write Precise Riaan(?) loan.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Is that not with reference to that

R2 250 000?
10

MR SONI SC:

Ye s , y e s .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

It is in relation to that?

Ye s , y e s .

CHAIRPERSON:

On my page immediately after that there

is something written there by hand that looks to me like
guarantee but it might be something else. Do you have the
same thing.
MR SONI SC:
Chairperson.

Oh, yes.

No, no, you are quite right,

I was not looking – because that is next to

the figure 2,25 million.
20

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

Ye s .

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y.

Is there any significance to

that handwritten…?
MR SONI SC:

It has significance, Chairperson, because

this is the first payment made in respect of Parkwood
Page 145 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
p r o p e r t y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Just raise your voice, that is the first

payment?
MR SONI SC:

S o r r y, i t i s t h e f i r s t p a y m e n t m a d e i n

r e s p e c t o f P a r k w o o d p r o p e r t y.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

Va n d e r Wa l t .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR
10

SONI

O h , m a d e b y M r v a n d e r Wa l t ?

O k a y.

SC:

And

that

obviously

is

a

payment

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

And the reference to guarantee, is there

any – or you do not know?
MR SONI SC:
whole

picture,

What I understand, when one looks at the
the

Parkwood

agreement

between

Mr

M o n t a n a a n d P r e c i s e Tr a d e i s t o t h i s e f f e c t t h a t t h e r e w i l l
be a payment, a down payment of R2,5 million and they
also say that that can be paid in respect of the bond
outstanding on Mr Montana’s property that he is occupying
i n Wa t e r k l o o f a t t h a t t i m e .
20

So just – the inference is that that was the payment
made to finalize that bond.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, ja.

M r L o u b s e r, i s t h a t M r v a n d e r

Wa l t ’ s h a n d w r i t i n g o r n o t , t h a t s a y s g u a r a n t e e , o r n o t ?
MR LOUBSER:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
Do you have any understanding of what
Page 146 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
that guarantee means apart from what…?
MR LOUBSER:

Not at all, no.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR LOUBSER:

Yo u h a v e n o i d e a w h a t i t m e a n s ?
No.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a l r i g h t .

MR SONI SC:

Chairperson, may I – I just want to

complete the picture because this was not only conjecture.
If

I

can

ask

you

to

look

at

page

198,

with

respect,

Chairperson?
10

CHAIRPERSON:

While

I

am

looking

at

that,

this

d o c u m e n t , M r L o u b s e r, s t a r t i n g a t p a g e 1 9 0 , t h e o n e w e
are looking at.
MR LOUBSER:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

I t i s p a r t o f w h a t M r v a n d e r Wa l t

furnished to you and Mr van Wyk, is it not?
MR LOUBSER:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Did you not have occasion to ask about

what this guarantee refers to?
MR LOUBSER:
20

No.

In his response he just said that that

was part of the purchase price.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR LOUBSER:

Ja.
He says that R2.250 000, it is part of the

purchase price.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

J a . O k a y, a l r i g h t . P a g e 1 … ?

Page 198.
Page 147 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

198, yes.
Chairperson, you will see at the middle of

the page is the start of paragraph 2.2 talking about the
purchase price of R6,8 million.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

Ye s .
This is his dealing with the answer to this

Parkwood Property and you will see on the 18 June that is
the payment.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR SONI SC:

Ye s .

That is made in respect of …[intervenes]

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

Ye s .
And I put – because I have read the terms

of the agreement, the purchase of the Parkwood property
b y M r v a n d e r Wa l t , t h e c l a u s e r e a d s i n t e r m s o f a d e p o s i t
of R2,5 million will be paid and he says but this can be
paid in respect of the bond on Mr Montana’s property in
Wa t e r k l o o f .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, I may have read somewhere, and I

thought it might be in connection with the agreements
20

relating to these properties or in relation to documents
relating to this Swifambo or Siyaya or Siyangenda.

I seem

to think I have read somewhere an agreement that refers to
certain payments as guarantees or guarantee.
MR SONI SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

So when I see this guarantee I am
Page 148 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
wondering whether it has a connection with what I may
have read somewhere, so – but maybe not.
MR SONI SC:

Yo u w i l l r e c a l l , C h a i r p e r s o n , y e s t e r d a y

when Ms Ngoye was giving evidence she talked about the
R900 million guarantee.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

T h a t t h e y w e r e r e q u i r e d t o p a y.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:
10

Ye s .

And that which they saw for the first time.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

Ye s .

Ye s .

When the interdict applications were done.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

Ye s , y e s i n r e l a t i o n t o S w i f a m b o .
No, Siyangena.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, ja, Siyangena.

So maybe that is

where I am taking it from.
MR SONI SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

O k a y, n o , t h a t i s a l r i g h t .
Mr Chairperson, in view of the fact that Mr

Loubser does not know any more about these, it would be
20

unfair to ask him to speculate and one is just going to get
the correct answers, well, I cannot tell, this is what was
said to me.

And it may just be better to confirm that all of

this is what was said to him and then for us to draw our
o w n i n f e r e n c e s w h e n o n e p u t s t h e w h o l e p i c t u r e t o g e t h e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , w e l l i n a n y e v e n t y o u – i f y o u h a v e
Page 149 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
not already done so, if you have information relating to Mr
v a n d e r Wa l t , y o u c o u l d s e n d n o t i c e t o h i m t o s a y t h e s e a r e
– this is what we are looking at, you are at liberty to
furnish us with an affidavit, obviously he at liberty even to
come to South Africa.
MR SONI SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR SONI SC:

So he might elect to put up an affidavit.

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

And apply to adduce evidence.

He might elect to come.

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

He might elect not to want have anything

to do with us and, of course, since he is out of South
Africa, we cannot compel him.
MR SONI SC:

No, sure.

CHAIRPERSON:
I want to ask.

So that is fine but there is one question

M r L o u b s e r, t h e r e i s a l e t t e r t h a t – I d o n o t

know where exactly it is here in the bundle but there is a
20

l e t t e r t h a t M r v a n d e r Wa l t w r o t e o n t h e l e t t e r h e a d s o f t h e
law firm if I am not mistaken or it might have been an email
but he wrote to an estate agent, I believe, in regard to one
of these property transactions and said to the estate agent
that the law firm had, I think, R5 million in its trust account
w h i c h w a s f o r f i n a n c i n g t h a t p r o p e r t y.
Page 150 of 253

I got the impression

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
in the documents that there was no such amount in the
t r u s t a c c o u n t o f t h e l a w f i r m w h e n M r v a n d e r Wa l t s a i d
there was.

Do you remember what – did you come across

that in the documents or not?
MR LOUBSER:

There was – ja because that was in the

media report, there was still also mention of a R5 million
but there was never money in our trust account, Loubser
Va n d e r Wa l t , t h e f i r m ’ s t r u s t a c c o u n t o f R 5 m i l l i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR LOUBSER:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
We never held it in our trust account.
Ye s .

So to the extent that that is what

h e s a i d i n a l e t t e r, t h a t i s n o t t r u e , a s f a r a s y o u k n o w.
MR LOUBSER:
CHAIRPERSON:

We did the whole …[intervenes]
To t h e e x t e n t t h a t h e m a y h a v e s a i d

there was at a particular time when he wrote that letter
there was an am ount of R5 million in the law firm’s trust
a c c o u n t f o r t h a t p r o p e r t y, t h a t w o u l d n o t b e t r u e .
MR LOUBSER:

I do not know the exact dates but I do not

– we…
20

CHAIRPERSON:
MR LOUBSER:

Ye s .
There was never an amount of R5 million

deposited into the firm’s trust account.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR LOUBSER:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .
By …[intervenes]
5 million, is it not?
Page 151 of 253

Not 500 000, 5

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
million?
MR SONI SC:

Ye s , 5 m i l l i o n , y e s .

CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h a t m u c h y o u c a n s a y, t h a t t h e r e

was never such an amount.
MR LOUBSER:

Not in the firm’s trust account.

CHAIRPERSON:

In the trust account.

MR LOUBSER:

No.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:
10

Ja. Do you remember that letter?

Ye s , I … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON:

Are you able to refer him to it and the

page so that for the sake of completeness we…?
MR SONI SC:

Ye s .

I know we made a point of it in

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

I wonder whether your junior is able to

be of assistance.
MR SONI SC:

Ye s .

Chairperson, this is a document that

appears somewhere in another file.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:
20

In another file.

Can I show it to Mr Loubser?

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

Ja.
And then I will address you on where we

will find it.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

Ja, that is fine, ja.

And when it will come for you.

CHAIRPERSON:

That is fine.

M r L o u b s e r, i f y o u c a n

Page 152 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
have a look at that letter?

Yo u c a n s a y, i n t h e m e a n t i m e ,

Mr Soni, that is it is a letter date what.
MR SONI SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Or if it is an email dated what, from

whom and addressed to whom and about what.
MR SONI SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Or you will not be able to say that until

you get the letter back.
MR SONI SC:
10

No, I …[intervenes]

CHAIRPERSON:
MR LOUBSER:

Maybe Mr Loubser you can tell us.
Let me …[intervenes]

CHAIRPERSON:

Who is it from?

MR LOUBSER:

I t i s a l e t t e r f r o m L o u b s e r Va n d e r Wa l t

I n c o r p o r a t e d t o P a m G o l d i n g P r o p e r t y.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR LOUBSER:

Ye s .
With a heading T L Montana transaction.

“Referring to our conversation…”
I t i s d a t e d t h e 8 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 4 , w h e r e i n t h e s i g n a t o r y, M r
v a n d e r Wa l t , c o n f i r m e d t h a t :
20

“We

hold

in

our

trust

investment

account

and

amount of R5 million which amount is available to
be

allocated

towards

the

purchase

price

of

the

p r o p e r t y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Would that statem ent be correct

that at that time – you know whether that statement is
Page 153 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
correct that at that time there was R5 million deposited in
the law firm’s trust account in regard to that property?
MR LOUBSER:
into

our

I am not aware of R5 million that was paid

firm’s

trust

account,

but

it

refers

here

to

investment – Investec account.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh, it is not a trust - the letter does not

say trust account, it says investment account.

T h e l e t t e r,

what does it say?
MR LOUBSER:
10

It says:

“…held in our trust investment account, Investec
Bank, R5 million.”
But I am not aware of such a R5 million.
CHAIRPERSON:

Is that something that can be checked,

that you can check and maybe do a supplementary affidavit
whether when you investigate you are able to confirm for
sure whether it is so or it is not so or are you sure that
there would not have been? I just want us to be sure.
MR LOUBSER:

There would not have been a – no, I

cannot say for sure, but I can check whether we received
20

an amount from whoever into our trust account.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, because we just want to – we want

to see whether what he said there was factually correct.
MR LOUBSER:

So this letter is dated the 6th or the 8

N o v e m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Mr Soni and them can email you so that
Page 154 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
you have a copy or – so then you can do a supplementary
affidavit. He can keep it.
MR SONI SC:

Ye s , y e s , w e w i l l m a k e a n o t h e r c o p y,

Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, k e e p i t a n d t h e n b y w h e n w o u l d

you be able to file a supplementary affidavit just to deal
with that part?
MR LOUBSER:

Next week.

CHAIRPERSON:
10

Next

week

W e d n e s d a y,

next

week

Friday?
MR LOUBSER:

By next week Friday at the latest.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR

Friday next week.

LOUBSER:

Ye s ,

Mr

Soni

just

exactly

what

the

…[intervenes]
MR SONI SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

O k a y, a l r i g h t , n o t h a n k y o u .

Can I, Chairperson, because it may well be

an important issue, if one looks at page 193 – is it 191?
S o r r y.
20

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

Ja?

O f t h e p a p e r s a n d t h a t i s t h e – s o r r y, p a g e

1 9 0 o f t h e p a p e r s , t h e d a t e o f t h a t i s t h e 6 N o v e m b e r, t h e
d a t e o f t h e l e t t e r w h e r e M r v a n d e r Wa l t c o n f i r m s t h a t t h a t
is the amount.

If one looks at page 190 and looks at the

entry in the bank statement on the 6 November 2014 you
Page 155 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
will see a deposit of R5 million from Mr Pimentel.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hang on one second, you are saying you

are page 190?
MR SONI SC:

190.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

And then what date?

6 November 2014.

CHAIRPERSON:

6 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 4 . Ye s ?

MR SONI SC: And you will see that that is a deposit of R5
million.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Oh yes, there is a deposit of R5 million

and is this the investment – Investec account that he was
talking about in the letter?
MR SONI SC:

Mr Loubser?

MR LOUBSER:
dates.

That could be, that is why I looked at the

B u t a s M r v a n d e r Wa l t p r e v i o u s l y i n d i c a t e d a l l

t h e s e a m o u n t s w a s p a i d i n t o P r e c i s e Tr a d e a n d I n v e s t
d i r e c t l y, n o t t h r o u g h L o u b s e r Va n d e r Wa l t ’ s t r u s t a c c o u n t .

20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

MR LOUBSER:

B e e n d e p o s i t e d d i r e c t l y.

So it could be

that he meant – no, I do not want to speculate what he
meant.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

MR LOUBSER:

H e r e c e i v e d R 5 m i l l i o n i n P r e c i s e Tr a d e

and Invest.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s ,
Page 156 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
MR LOUBSER:

But that money was – R5 million was

never paid into our normal trust account.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

But the letter does represent, as

you read it, that the money was being held in the trust
account of – or in the account of the law firm, is that right?
MR

LOUBSER:

It

investment account.

says

that

it

is

held

in

our

trust

But that trust investment account is

t h e o n e o f P r e c i s e Tr a d e a n d I n v e s t .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Would you have had such an account as

a l a w f i r m ? Tr u s t i n v e s t m e n t ?
MR LOUBSER:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
Or is it Investec or investment account

that he refers.
MR LOUBSER:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , t h e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]
The way you invest your clients’ money

that you have not used, would that be where it…?
MR LOUBSER:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
There

would

be

a

trust

investment

account.
20

MR LOUBSER:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
That is where you would invest clients’

monies that you are not supposed to…
MR LOUBSER:
property

No, those accounts were – actually were

transactions

where

the

purchaser

bought

the

property and he did not require a guarantee …[intervenes]
Page 157 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh,

so

that

it

gets

interest

in

the

meantime.
MR LOUBSER:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

O k a y, b u t t h e r e f e r e n c e t h e r e i n t h a t

in that letter is it a reference to that type of account that a
law firm would have or is it a reference to a different
account?
MR LOUBSER:

I d o n o t k n o w.

CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR LOUBSER:

Yo u a r e n o t s u r e ?
No.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a l r i g h t .

But as you read it, it

could refer to – you say it may have – it may have meant
P r e c i s e Tr a d e ’ s I n v e s t e c a c c o u n t .
MR LOUBSER:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR LOUBSER:
MR SONI SC:

8 N o v e m b e r.
The 6th. It is dated the 6th, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:
20

The letter is dated the 6th?

T h e 6 N o v e m b e r.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

Ja. And the letter is dated what?

W h i c h i s t h e s a m e d a t e a s t h e e n t r y.

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Do you see it as 6 or as 8, what is

written there?
MR LOUBSER:
CHAIRPERSON:

It is very…
Ve r y d i f f i c u l t a n d t h e l i g h t i n g i s n o t
Page 158 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
good.
MR LOUBSER:

Illegible, it could be either a 6 or 8, it is a

zero …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, b u t w h e t h e r i t i s 8 o r 6 , i f t h i s

deposit happened on the 6 it might not make a difference.
MR SONI SC:

No.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

J a . O k a y.
May I, while you are there, Chairperson,

refer you to the very next entry on the bank account.
10

The

6 N o v e m b e r i s a d e p o s i t f r o m M r. P i m e n t e l o f R 5 m i l l i o n
and then on the 7 November in the bank account the very
next entry is a payment of R5 million to Pam Golding 199
E m p i r e P l a c e , w h i c h i s t h e S a n d h u r s t P r o p e r t y, w h i c h i s
what that letter refers to.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

No, no, Sandhurst.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

Oh, Sandhurst.

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:
20

Oh, yes, which is the Parkwood.

MR SONI SC:

O h , o k a y. O k a y.
Because that is the letter addressed to

P a m G o l d i n g w h o s o l d t h e S a n d h u r s t p r o p e r t y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh,

that

letter

is

S a n d h u r s t p r o p e r t y.
MR SONI SC:

That is right.

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. N o , t h a t i s f i n e .
Page 159 of 253

in

regard

to

the

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
MR SONI SC:

The bank account doesn’t but Mr van der

Wa l t ’ s i n s c r i p t i o n s a y s i t w a s b y M r P l i m e n t h a l , y o u w i l l
see the name Plimenthal next to that five million.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, o k a y.

Are you done?

Are you

done with …[intervenes]
MR SONI SC:

I am.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r L o u b s e r f o r

coming to give evidence.
completeness
10

even

I guess that for the sake of

though

at

this

stage

it

might

look

obvious, it might help if you are able to confirm that
roundabout that date of 6 November 2014 there was no
such

deposit

amount

held

within

the

trust

account

in

r e l a t i o n t o a n y s u c h p r o p e r t y.
MR LOUBSER:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, just so that it is clear and that line is

Friday next week.
MR LOUBSER:

Yo u c a n j u s t p h r a s e i t l i k e t h a t a n d I w i l l

do a supplem entary affidavit.
ADV SONI SC:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
In fact, okay no thank you very much,

you are excused.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u s o m u c h M r L o u b s e r.
Mr Soni we are at nearly twenty five to

five, I indicated that I would be prepared to sit till later
than that, but I was thinking we would go up to six, but I
Page 160 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
did say we would find out from the witness who would be
coming in whether it is convenient because they might not
have

planned

to

be

here

for that

long.

What

is the

position? Who is the next witness?
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e n e x t w i t n e s s i s M r G r e e n C h a i r.
Check what his situation is about us

c o n t i n u i n g o r w h e t h e r h e i s h a p p y t o c o m e b a c k t o m o r r o w.
Well you can just ask him, he will speak from where he is,
you don’t have to go there.
10

ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

He is happy to continue Chairperson.
He is happy to continue.

O k a y, a n d w e

won’t be long with him.
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no.
Ja, let’s take a ten minutes break now

and if there was going to be another witness ...[intervenes]
ADV SONI SC:

There is another witness, and that is Ms

K a r e n d e B e e r.

S h e c a m e a l l t h e w a y f r o m C a p e To w n s o

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Oh, what is her situation?

speak from where – what is your situation?
to stay?

She can just
Yo u a r e h a p p y

Ye s , y o u a r e s p e n d i n g t h e n i g h t i n J o ’ b u r g ?

you live in Pretoria?

Oh

O h y o u c a m e f r o m C a p e To w n , b u t

tomorrow would be inconvenient for you?

It would be

i n c o n v e n i e n t t o m o r r o w, o k a y a l r i g h t , w e w i l l t r y a n d f i n i s h
b e c a u s e y o u r e v i d e n c e w o n ’ t b e l o n g e i t h e r, b u t l e t u s t a k e
Page 161 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
a ten minutes break, and then we will continue, it is twenty
f i v e t o n o w, w e w i l l r e s u m e a t q u a r t e r t o .
We adjourn.
REGISTRAR:

All rise.

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Okay Mr Soni let’s proceed.
Chairperson the next two witnesses are, if

I can call them, and I say this because of the support the
10

Commission needs from ordinary people and these are two
ordinary people going about their business and are here to
assist the Commission in explaining the roles of different
players.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .
What you will see when all the evidence is

led Chairperson that Mr Montana was the person who goes
and spots the properties, makes offers for the properties
and then enters into contracts and eventually the property
i s t r a n s f e r r e d t o t h e Ve r s a c e Tr a d e , b e c a u s e y o u h a v e
20

h e a r d n o w t h a t a l l t h e – e x c e p t t h e h o l d i n g p r o p e r t y, s o w e
h a v e a n e s t a t e a g e n t , M r G r e e n a n d a n o w n e r, M s D e B e e r,
who will give evidence to that effect.

The evidence will be

short but with respect Chairperson it is quite dramatic
because

they

remember

Mr

Montana’s

transactions.
Page 162 of 253

role

in

the

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:
their

evidence

Well you need also to say what makes
relevant,

namely

that

the

transactions

relating to these properties insofar as they involve Mr
Montana

happened

in

the

context

of

certain

contracts

involving PRASA, of which Mr Montana was Group CEO
and Siyangena, is that right?
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

And Siyangena and the relationship

between TMM and Siyangena.
10

ADV SONI SC:

That is so.

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Ja, do you want to just wrap that up?
Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Just touch on that properly so that

w h o e v e r i s l i s t e n i n g c a n f o l l o w, b e c a u s e y o u a n d I h a v e
r e a d a l o t o f t h e s e d o c u m e n t s , w e k n o w, b u t s o m e b o d y
else might say I am not following this evidence by this
w i t n e s s o r b y t h e C o m m i s s i o n n o w.
ADV SONI SC:
Loubser
20

Ye s , C h a i r p e r s o n t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r

confirms

importance

of

Mr

what

we

Loubser ’s

already
evidence

k n o w,

and

the

is

says

the

he

information that he communicated today was given to him
b y M r v a n d e r Wa l t .

That inform ation is to this effect, that

M r v a n d e r Wa l t a c t e d a s a n a t t o r n e y f o r T M M , a c t e d a s a n
attorney for Siyangena, acted as an attorney of ESS, all
major companies in which Mr Mariel Ferreira has a major
Page 163 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
interest.
What we also know is that some of these properties,
not necessarily all, but some were funded by money and Mr
Loubser ’s evidence on – having regard to what Mr van der
Wa l t t o l d h i m o n m o n e y s u p p l i e d b y T M M a n d C h a i r p e r s o n
it is important when one looks at TMM is not TMM the
company but TMM in the joint venture agreement that he –
M r v a n d e r Wa l t s u b m i t t e d t o M r L o u b s e r a n d t h a t M r
L o u b s e r b r o u g h t t o c o u r t t o d a y.
10

So when we talk about TMM we are not only talking
a b o u t t h e c o m p a n y, w e a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t T M M a n d M r
Ferreira.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV SONI SC:

And these are not small sums of money

Chairperson, you will recall the first amount is R5 000 000
a n d R 1 8 0 0 0 0 0 p a i d o n t h e s a m e d a y, t h e v e r y s a m e d a y
to commit to R5 000 000 is paid to settle Mr Montana’s
debt

–

Mr

Montana’s

bond

in

a

property

he

owns

in

Wa t e r k l o o f .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Okay thank you.

Thank you, Mr Green,

for your patience and for coming to give evidence, we
appreciate your cooperation, you can administer the oath
or affirmation.
REGISTRAR:
MR GREEN:

Please state your full names for the record.
Louis Green.
Page 164 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
REGISTRAR:

Do you have any objection to taking the

prescribed oath?
MR GREEN:

No I don’t.

REGISTRAR:

Do you consider the oath to be binding on

your conscience?
MR GREEN:

Ye s , I d o .

REGISTGRAR:

Do you swear that the evidence you give

will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing else but the
truth, if so please raise your right hand and say so help me
10

God.
MR GREEN:

So help me God.

MR LOUIS GREEN:
CHAIRPERSON:
seated.

[d.s.s.]
Thank you very much, you may be

Yo u m a y p r o c e e d M r S o n i .

ADV SONI SC:

As you please Chairman.

Mr Green

...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Although he will ask the questions look

at me most of the time.
ADV SONI SC:
20

Mr Green what is your profession at the

moment?
MR GREEN:

At the moment I am a practicing Estate

Agent.
ADV SONI SC:

And in 2014?

MR GREEN: In 2014 I was an Estate Agent as well.
ADV SONI SC:

A n d a t t h a t s t a g e w o u l d H o o t c h A g e n c y, a
Page 165 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
group where you attached to?
MR GREEN:

I was with Pam Golding in the Hyde Park

office.
ADV SONI SC:

Does the name Mr Montana – Lucky

Montana ring a bell with you?
MR GREEN:

Ye s i t d o e s .

ADV SONI SC:
MR GREEN:

I sold two properties to Mr Montana.

ADV SONI SC:
10

And in what connection?

Ye s , c a n I j u s t a s k y o u ,

you’ve made an

affidavit…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y, d o r a i s e y o u r v o i c e a l i t t l e b i t

because there’s some noise with the aircon here, thank
you.
ADV SONI SC:
MR GREEN:

So, you say you sold?

I sold two properties to Mr Montana.

ADV SONI SC:

Just for putting them in context, one is in

Sandhurst and the other is in Hurlingham?
MR GREEN:

That’s correct.

ADV SONI SC:
20

So those are the two deluxe properties.

Now…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

Maybe for the sake of completeness,

2015, 2014?
MR GREEN:

I’m going to have to refer…[intervenes].

CHAI RPERSO N: That’s fine.
MR GREEN:

It was during 2014/2015 …[intervenes].
Page 166 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:

That’s fine the exact date you can look

up later I just wanted us to have that ballpark in terms of
time frame.
ADV SONI SC:

Yo u ’ v e m a d e a s t a t e m e n t i n r e g a r d t o

these transactions is that correct?
MR GREEN:

That’s correct.

ADV SONI SC:

And that statement was made on the 1st of

October 2015, is that correct?
MR GREEN:
10

ADV

SONI

That’s correct.
SC:

Chairperson,

Mr

Green’s

statement

appears at Bundle G, page 80 and 81.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a r e d e a l i n g w i t h B u n d l e G h e y, i s t h a t
right?
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , t h a t i s s o .
O k a y, a n d … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
Page 80 and 81.
Did you admit Mr Loubser ’s statement as

EXHIBIT SS16, I don’t think so, I don’t remember you
asking me…[intervenes].
20

ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

No SSO, I think I forgot Chairperson.
Ye s , o k a y w e ’ l l – i t i s s o a d m i t t e d a s

EXHIBIT SS16, that is now the statement or affidavit of Mr
N i c h o l a s J o h a n n e s L o u b s e r.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON: And the Annexures thereto and now we
Page 167 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
are dealing with the affidavit of Mr Louis Green and that is
in Bundle G and you would like me to admit it as EXHIBIT
SS15.
ADV SONI SC:

As you please Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:

The

affidavit

of

Mr

Louis

Green

is

admitted as EXHIBIT SS15, ja.
ADV SONI SC:

N o w, M r G r e e n I u n d e r s t a n d t h i s t o o k

pace some time ago and I understand that you were not
w e l l f o r a p e r i o d t h e r e a f t e r. Yo u m a y l o o k a t y o u r a f f i d a v i t ,
10

you may want to recast your affidavit.

I just want to deal

with the first property that you are talking about, that you
sold to Mr Montana.

Can you recall the details of how that

happened?
MR GREEN:

Ye s I w a s o n s h o w a n d M r M o n t a n a c a m e t o

t h e s h o w d a y, t h i s w a s – I ’ m r e c a l l i n g t h e f i r s t t i m e I m e t
M r M o n t a n a , h e c a m e t o t h e s h o w d a y, i t w a s j u s t b e f o r e
the closing of the show day and he asked if he could just
run through the house quickly …[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:
20

MR GREEN:

This was the…[intervenes].

CHAIRPERSON:
MR GREEN:

That is which house now?

This was the last one?

No, this was the Hurlingham house.

CHAIRPERSON: Hurlingham house?
ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
That’s where you met him for t he first
Page 168 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
time?
MR GREEN:

That’s where I first met him.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR GREEN:

He ran through the house and said that he

w a s i n t e r e s t e d i n t h e p r o p e r t y, h e w a s l o o k i n g t o d e v e l o p
and it would be of interest to him.

I had another property

in Sandhurst which was in Empire Place, which is the first
property that he purchased, that property I invited him to
come and view the property at one of my show days which
10

he came to visit.
ADV SONI SC:

And did – what was his reaction after the

show day at Sandhurst?
MR GREEN:

He certainly showed interest in the property

and said that he would like to proceed with the purchase of
t h e p r o p e r t y, i t w a s a v e r y g o o d d e a l a s w e l l a n d h e
recognised that.
ADV SONI SC:
MR GREEN:

Did he make an offer?

Ye s , h e d i d m a k e a n o f f e r.

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s t h e p r o p e r t y s o l d f o r, b e f o r e h e
20

m a d e a n o f f e r w h a t w a s i t u p f o r. I n t e r m s o f t h e a m o u n t ,
you can refresh your memory by looking at the documents.
MR

GREEN:

mandate,
previous

I

That
think

a g e n c y.

p r o p e r t y,

was
I

at

sold

prior to

around
the

Page 169 of 253

getting

R18million

p r o p e r t y,

R13.9million.

me

I

with

think

it

the
the
was

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:
MR GREEN:

To M r M o n t a n a ?

To M r M o n t a n a .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y, b u t y o u s a y t h a t , a t s o m e s t a g e
before you got involved with the property it was about
R18million?
MR GREEN:

That’s correct.

CHAIRPERSON:

But do you have any recollection of what

the amount was at which you were selling it before Mr
Montana m ade the offer of …[intervenes].
10

MR GREEN:

I think it was around about the R15million.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR GREEN:

O h o k a y.

And the circumstances around the sale were

that the owner had already purchased and renovated a new
h o u s e f o r h i s f a m i l y.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR GREEN:

Ja.

S o , y o u k n o w, t h e r e w a s d e f i n i t e o p p o r t u n i t y.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s h e n e e d e d

a sale

as soon

as

possible
MR GREEN:
20

Ja he needed – you know we managed to put

a d e a l t o g e t h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
ADV SONI SC:

So, Mr Montana made an offer and did the

old man accept the offer?
MR GREEN:
offered

Ye s , I d o n ’ t r e c a l l i f i t w a s t h a t M r M o n t a n a

R13million

and

the

owner

Page 170 of 253

came

back

with

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
R15million, you know whether it was – the bottom line is, it
was settled at R13.9million.

So I don’t recall the exact

circumstance as to how we arrived at the R13.9million.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Ja that’s fine.
Alright, now in regard to that sale, if I can

call it that, was any deposit paid?
MR GREEN:

Ye s , t h e r e w a s a d e p o s i t p a i d .

ADV SONI SC:
MR GREEN:
10

What was the amount of the deposit?

The deposit was R5million.

ADV SONI SC:

If I could just ask you, Mr Green, in that

Bundle in front of you, would you look at page 85?
MR GREEN:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Well before that, can I just clarify this.

When Mr Montana made the first offer as you recall, did he
make that offer on the basis that he personally was the
purchaser?
MR GREEN:

Ye s , t h e o f f e r w a s m a d e b y h i m .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR GREEN:
20

O k a y, n o t f o r a n e n t i t y o r … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .

No, it was by him.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y, t h a n k y o u .

ADV SONI SC:

Chairperson I thought I’d just get rid of

this document, this is the very document that Mr Loubser
was shown.
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s , o k a y l e t ’ s d e a l w i t h t h a t .
I just thought I’d…[intervenes].
Page 171 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

ADV SONI SC:

N o w, w h e n M r M o n t a n a – s o r r y c a n y o u

remember who the seller was, the name of the seller?
MR GREEN:

Ye s , i t w a s K h o l e r.

ADV SONI SC:
MR GREEN:

Mr Kholer?

Ye s .

ADV SONI SC:

And the deposit was paid, was then the

property sold to Mr Montana?
MR GREEN:
10

Ye s , t h e d e p o s i t w o u l d o n l y h a v e b e e n p a i d

once the sale agreem ent was agreed. So the offer to
purchase, once it’s signed by all parties, becomes the sale
a g r e e m e n t . O n c e t h e s a l e a g r e e m e n t i s r e a d y, t h e d e p o s i t
will be paid.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s , n o w I j u s t w a n t t o g e t t o t h e p o i n t

w h e r e , e v e n t u a l l y, t h e p r o p e r t y w a s t r a n s f e r r e d , n o t t o M r
M o n t a n a b u t t o a c o m p a n y c a l l e d P r e c i s e Tr a d e , i s t h a t
correct.
MR GREEN:

That’s correct.

ADV SONI SC:
20

How did that happen?

C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s o r r y, j u s t b e f o r e t h a t , i n t e r m s o f t h e
agreement, what was the deposit that Mr Montana was
supposed to pay?
MR GREEN:

R5million.

CHAIRPERSON:

R5million and that’s the deposit that was

paid?
Page 172 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
MR GREEN:

That’s the deposit that was paid.

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

O k a y, t h a n k y o u .
N o w, i t w a s e v e n t u a l l y s o l d t o P r e c i s e

Tr a d e , a m I c o r r e c t ?
MR GREEN:
ADV

SONI

That’s correct yes.
SC:

If

I

can

ask

you

to

look

at

page

92…[intervenes].

10

CHAIRPERSON:

I know that, because of time you may be

skipping

things

certain

deliberately

but

I

think

it

is

important to capture some of those circumstances under
which the identity of the purchaser changed in terms of, if
from changing it from it being Montana in his personal
c a p a c i t y t o a l e g a l e n t i t y.

So the circumstances under

which – that should be captured.
ADV

SONI

SC:

Yo u

appreciate,

Mr

Green,

that

Mr

Montana signs an agreement to buy the property and then
the property is then going to be sold to somebody else.
The question is, how did that change come about, having
regard to the fact that a R5million deposit had already
20

been paid?
MR GREEN:

Ja I don’t recall the exact events, other than,

I was asked to please speak to the seller to see if they
could change – so in effect, cancel the first agreem ent and
substitute

that

agreement

with

a

Precise.
Page 173 of 253

new

agreement

with

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR GREEN:

So, it wasn’t an issue where the property

was transferred or that any of the process had already
started, the only thing that had happened was the deposit
had been paid and in this substitute agreement – so I
would

never

allow

an

agreement

to

be

agreement would need to be substituted.

cancelled,

the

So, there would

need to be a new agreement and once that agreement is
received then the other agreement is cancelled and I make
10

reference in the – on page 94 that the deposit in 2.1 was
received on the 7th of November 2014. So, the deposit had
already been received on the fist sale agreement.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s , s o w h e n w e s a y a t p a g e 9 4 , t h i s i s

t h e a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n M r K h o l e r a n d P r e c i s e Tr a d e ?
MR

GREEN:

That

is

correct,

this

is

the

final

sale

agreement.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s , s o i f I c a n j u s t a s k y o u w h e n y o u ’ r e

saying, in – about how the change took place, can I ask
you to please look at paragraph 5 of your affidavit.
20

I know

it’s a long time and that’s why I thought you may want to
r e f r e s h y o u r m e m o r y, p a g e 8 0 p a r a g r a p h 5 .

Do you want

to read that into the record and…[intervenes]?
CHAIRPERSON:

I think he may well actually – you know

it’s a very short affidavit this, he could just read it.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s , t h a t m a y b e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
Page 174 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
MR GREEN:

Should I read that?

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .
Could you read the whole affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON:

Read the whole affidavit ja.

ADV SONI SC:

Read that and we can ask specific

questions.
MR GREEN:

I must read the whole affidavit?

CHAIRPERSON: Ja you can read the whole affidavit.
MR GREEN:
10

“I the undersigned, Louis Green, ID number

5 9 0 5 1 2 5 11 9 0 8 6 … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Or maybe you can start on the – on

paragraph 2.
MR GREEN:

O k a y,

“On or about mid 2014, I was instructed by Mr
Kholer to market and sell a property known as
portion 18 of Erf 1 Sandhurst Gauteng, situated at
11 9 E m p i r e P l a c e , S a n d h u r s t , J o h a n n e s b u r g .

As a

result, thereof I placed the property on show a
number of times and on or about the 26th of October
20

a

gentleman,

Montana,

now

visited

known

the

show

to

me

day

i n t e r e s t i n b u y i n g t h e p r o p e r t y.

as
and

Mr

Lucky

expressed

Either that day or

t h e n e x t d a y, I c a n n o t n o w r e m e m b e r,

Montana

signed an offer to purchase for the property in the
amount of R13.9million.

I cannot now recall where

Page 175 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
the offer was signed as I do many offers, it may
h a v e b e e n s i g n e d o n t h e s h o w d a y.

The offer was

accepted by the seller on the 28th of October 2014.
I

was

subsequently

contacted

by

a

certain

Mr

A d r i a a n R i a a n v a n d e r Wa l t b y e m a i l o n 2 4 / 11 / 0 5 ,
the email contained a letter…[intervenes]?.
CHAI RPERSO N: That’s 2014 hey?
MR GREEN:

Ye s 2 0 1 4 ,

“ F r o m L o u b s e r v a n d e r Wa l t I n c o r p o r a t e d A t t o r n e y s
10

confirming

that

they

had

R5million

account with Investec Bank.

in

a

Tr u s t

A true copy of the

email, the attorney’s letter and the offer to purchase
signed by Montana is attached hereto, marked as
Annexure LG1…[intervenes].
ADV SONI SC:

Sorry Mr Green and sorry Chairperson, I

just want to place this on record, you – after you left Pam
Golding were you able to receive any documents from
them?
MR GREEN:
20

No all of the – I was completely locked out of

everything, so all my email was deleted, all my diary was
deleted and I have no access to any documentation.
ADV SONI SC:

And I just place on record, Chairperson,

that many of the docum ents that I refer to in the affidavit,
are not in our possession and we couldn’t find the primary
source because, as Mr Green says, these are all deleted
Page 176 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
t h e r e a f t e r.

So, I just place that on record, when you see

the affidavit and Annexures there will be som e Annexures
that are missing.
MR GREEN:

But these documents were a part of the

affidavit at the time of signing the affidavit which was done
at the Werksm ans offices in Sandton.
“On the 7th of October 2014 I received an email
f r o m a n d e r Wa l t w i t h p r o o f o f p a y m e n t i n t h e
amount
10

of

R5million

account for and

into

Pam

Golding’s

Tr u s t

on behalf of Lucky Montana, I

attach a true copy of that email as Annexure LGG.
On

the

25th

of

November

I

received

a

further

f a c s i m i l e f r o m v a n d e r Wa l t w i t h a l e t t e r a t t a c h e d ,
m a r k e d a s u r g e n t , t h e e f f e c t o f t h e l e t t e r, a s w i l l b e
seen, was to change the buyer from Lucky Montana
t o a c o m p a n y c a l l e d P r e c i s e Tr a d e a n d I n v e s t 0 2
Pty Ltd. I then sent a fresh offer to purchase to van
d e r Wa l t i n t h e n a m e o f P r e c i s e Tr a d e a n d I n v e s t
Pty Ltd which was immediately signed by van der
20

Wa l t a n d r e t u r n e d t o m e .

Note that at clause 1.5 I

wrote the expression, the deposit 2.1 was received
on 7th November 2014. The effect of this is that the
deposit paid for Lucky Montana was not being held
– was now being – sorry was not being held, I think
t h a t s h o u l d b e n o w, f o r P r e c i s e Tr a d e a n d I n v e s t
Page 177 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
Ltd.

A true copy of the relevant emails and new

offer

to

purchase

Annexure LG3.

is

attached

hereto,

marked

The conveyancing was carried out

by Snym an’s Incorporated; the Fourways office and
the property was transferred on the 6th of August
2 0 1 5 . W i t h i n a f e w d a y s o f t r a n s f e r, I w e n t t o t h e
p r o p e r t y a n d m e t w i t h R i a a n v a n d e r Wa l t , h e w a s
on his own and to the best of my memory this was
the first time that I had seen him I walked him
10

through the property and handed him the keys.
There is one more document I want to attach from
my file, I do not know when I got it but it is a copy
of

the

bank

guarantee

for

the

payment

of

the

remaining R8.9million from Invested. I attach a true
copy of this as Annexure LG4”.
ADV SONI SC:
is

now

Mr Green, can I just stop you there, that

everything

you

say

in

this

affidavit

about

the

S a n d h u r s t p r o p e r t y.
MR
20

GREEN:

This

is

all

relating

to

Sandhurst

yes.

Coincidentally I was also the selling agent on another
property that was purchased by Lucky Montana, this is the
property located in Hurlingham on 12 Montrose Road, and
known as the remaining extent of Erf 70 Hurlingham.

The

Seller was Mrs Gavisser and Montana bought it from her
with myself as the agent.

The conveyancing was done by

Page 178 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
J a n i n e B r e d e k a m p i n P a r k v i e w.

I distinctly recall Janine

Bredekamp calling me one day and saying that Mr Montana
had contacted her and requested her to change the buyer
f r o m h i m s e l f t o a n o t h e r e n t i t y.

I do not now recall what

that entity was but she refused to go along with it as she
wanted to finalise the transaction.
through on the 28th of July 2015.

That transfer went

I attach a copy of the

Ti t l e D e e d s h e r e t o a s A n n e x u r e L G 5 a n d a s f a r a s t h e
seller of that property is still in occupation and paying
10

occupational rent.

Prior to me signing this statement, I

have carefully read through it and am satisfied that the
facts are correctly and accurately recorded, the following
questions were put to me, in person by the Commissioner
of Oath and I entered the answers in my own handwriting.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s .
MR GREEN:

Do you know and understand the contents?

Ye s . D o y o u h a v e a n y o t h e r d o c u m e n t s ?
CHAIRPERSON: No you do not have to read that.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s .
20

MR GREEN: Thank you.
ADV SONI SC:

Now Mr Green as I understand from my

conversation with you earlier today you do not have an
independent

recollection

of

this

but

this

–

of

these

transactions but what you have set out here is what you –
or you knew on the 1 October 2015, is that correct?
Page 179 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
MR GREEN:

Ye s a n d i t w a s o n d o c u m e n t s t h a t w e r e

presented to me.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR GREEN:

The initial investigation was done by I think

Paul O’Sullivan.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r k s m a n s . Wa s i t d o n e b y W e r k s m a n s ?
MR GREEN: Sorry?
CHAIRPERSON:

The initial investigation was it done by

Werksmans?
10

M R G R E E N : B y P a u l O ’ S u l l i v a n t h e i n v e s t i g a t o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. N o f i n e .
MR GREEN: Ja and – so that was we initially made contact
with and provided me with documentation and you know the
documentation never came from me but it was provided to
me by O’Sullivan.
ADV SONI SC:

Now in respect of – you have – how long

have you been an estate agent?
MR GREEN:

I have been an estate agent I think for

15/16/17 years.
20

ADV SONI SC:

In respect of these two properties I mean I

k n o w o n e w a s t h e t r a n s f e r w a s e ff e c t e d i n t h e n a m e o f
P r e c i s e Tr a d e .
M R G R E E N : Ye s .
ADV SONI SC:

But as far as you were concerned to whom

was that property sold, that is the Sandhurst property?
Page 180 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
MR GREEN:
was

to

Well the first sale as the documents reflect

Lucky

Montana

and

the

property

eventually

t r a n s f e r r e d t o t h e c o m p a n y n o t t o L u c k y.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .

After the transfer of the property did

you have – according to your knowledge did you have
communications with the purchaser?
M R G R E E N : Ye s I d i d .
ADV SONI SC:

And did you have communications with Mr

Montana?
10

MR GREEN: I think I did yes.
ADV SONI SC:

And – but you do not have an independent

recollection of it?
MR GREEN:

Well I – I did see a document where after the

transfer I had spoken – I had sent out an email where I
h a v e c o p i e d – i t w a s i n r e s p e c t t o t h e p o o l c o v e r.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s .
MR GREEN:

Where I have copied Montana in on the email

t h a t I s e n t t o Va n D e r Wa l t , t o P r e c i s e a n d h e w a s q u i t e
irate and upset at the fact that I have copied Montana in on
20

the email. So yes I had.
ADV SONI SC:

But subsequent to that did

you then

continue communicating with Mr Montana in respect of the
part or can you not recall it?
MR GREEN: I do not think I – I – there would have been no
reason

to

continue.

I

mean

my

Page 181 of 253

communication

going

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
f o r w a r d a n d t h i s w a s u p u n t i l 2 0 1 7 w a s a l l w i t h Va n D e r
Wa l t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Let me ask this question.

Initially the

person who was interested in buying the property was Mr
Montana.
MR GREEN: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d h e m a d e a n o ff e r t o p u r c h a s e .

And

h e m a d e a n o ff e r t o p u r c h a s e t h a t w a s a c c e p t e d b y t h e
seller?
10

MR GREEN: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON:

And that was a deal then – there was a

deal between the two of them.
MR GREEN: Ja there was a deal. The deposit was paid.
CHAIRPERSON:

A deposit was paid.

Until you received a

l e t t e r o r e m a i l f r o m M r Va n D e r Wa l t a s k i n g t h a t t h e b u y e r
b e c h a n g e d t o b e P r e c i s e Tr a d e w h a t y o u k n e w – w h a t y o u
knew as the estate agent was that there was an agreement
o f s a l e b e t w e e n M r M o n t a n a a n d t h e s e l l e r.
MR GREEN: Correct.
20

CHAIRPERSON:
email

or letter

Is that right ja.
from

M r Va n

Now when you got the

Der

Wa l t

asking

that

the

purchaser be changed before you and or the seller – before
you took that request to Ms – to the seller did you have any
discussion or communication with Mr Montana himself to
s a y, I a m r e c e i v i n g a l e t t e r f r o m a t h i r d p a r t y w h o s a y s w e
Page 182 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
must change – change this you are no longer going to be
the purchaser or is that …
MR GREEN:

No I do not – I do not recall I do not believe

so.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
MR GREEN:
a t t o r n e y.

B e c a u s e M r Va n D e r Wa l t w a s i n m y m i n d t h e

So if you look you will see that it was the

a t t o r n e y ’s l e t t e r t h a t I r e c e i v e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

MR GREEN:

Saying that the deposit – he is holding the

deposit in trust.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR GREEN:

And you know the fact that the attorney was

also – I did not even know who the directors of Precise
Tr a d i n g w e r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R G R E E N : A t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e i t w a s y o u k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

D i d – d i d M r – d i d M r Va n D e r Wa l t

in – either in that letter or in a telephone conversation with
20

y o u a r o u n d t h a t t i m e e v e r s a y a n y t h i n g t o t h e e ff e c t t h a t h e
was acting on behalf of Mr Montana in communicating with
you that the purchaser should be changed?

Did he make

any representation that Mr Montana was okay with that? He
was representing him or – or how did this come about
because I would have thought that if as far as you knew at
Page 183 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
t h e t i m e t h a t y o u r e c e i v e d t h e e m a i l o r l e t t e r f r o m M r Va n
D e r Wa l t t h i s h o u s e w a s t h e s u b j e c t o f a n a g r e e m e n t t h a t
had been concluded.
ADV SONI SC: Concluded.
CHAIRPERSON:

The first thing that would come to your

mind but who are you?
MR GREEN: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h i s p r o p e r t y h a s a b u y e r, t h e r e i s a d e a l .
So I do not expect that you would ask that question so is
10

there anything that allayed your concerns in that regard?
MR GREEN: I might very well have.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR GREEN: But I cannot…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.
MR GREEN: With conviction and any recollection.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R G R E E N : O r a c c u r a c y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR GREEN: Make a statement that …

20

CHAIRPERSON: That you did.
M R G R E E N : Yo u k n o w I d o n o t r e c a l l .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

So there I would imagine you know

given my experience and how pedantic I am in my deals that
I would have confirmed that with Mr Montana that this is in
fact you know albeit it was not in writing I might very well
Page 184 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
have been in a phone call or I might have received a phone
call from him saying listen this is what happening we cannot
– I am not going to take transfer we are putting into a
c o m p a n y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR GREEN:

But I honestly cannot without any recollection

make a statement like that.
ADV SONI SC:

Because my own thinking is that you would

d o n e h a v e s o m e t h i n g t o m a k e s u r e t h a t i t w a s i n o r d e r.
10

A D V S O N I S C : A b s o l u t e l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

This

was

in

order

with

Mr

Montana

because otherwise you would be causing your client – the
seller to be in breach of the agreement, you would be in
breach of the agreement.
M R G R E E N : W e l l i t i s n o t s o m e t h i n g I c a n d o u n i l a t e r a l l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

It

is

not

something

you

do

because

particularly when there was R5 million that had been paid
a l r e a d y.
M R G R E E N : Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

And if you were to go along with that

request without having [intervened] yourself.
MR GREEN: Secured himself.
CHAIRPERSON:

From Mr Montana that this should be in

order that would be very strange that.
MR GREEN: I would agree with you 100%.
Page 185 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR GREEN:

Perhaps I can say that it – I definitely would

have confirmed that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR GREEN:

But I do not know if it was me confirming or

before it happening me receiving a phone call.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R G R E E N : To s a y t h i s i s w h a t i s g o i n g t o h a p p e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR GREEN: But 100% it would have been done.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR GREEN: There would have been something.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR GREEN: I would never do it.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Wo u l d i t h a v e b e e n e n o u g h f o r M r

Va n D e r Wa l t t o j u s t s a y e v e n i n a l e t t e r, I a m a c t i n g f o r M r
Montana in that situation where he says, change the identity
of the – or you – would you still have said, look I want to
hear from Mr Montana.
20

I want something in writing from Mr

Montana.
MR GREEN:

Well I think my obligation knowing that I am

holding in our trust account R5 million which at this point in
time belongs to Mr Montana.
from him.

I would need the confirmation

There might very well have been a written

confirmation as well. I just do not have access to the
Page 186 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
documentation.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

But you certainly would not have

just gone ahead with that?
M R G R E E N : N e v e r, n o .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR GREEN: I – it would be against practice.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR GREEN:

Yo u k n o w i t i s n o t s o m e t h i n g – I c a n n o t j u s t

sign Mr Montana’s deposit to someone else.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR GREEN: Without…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s M r S o n i .
ADV SONI SC:

Mr Green you might recall you mentioned a

l i t t l e e a r l i e r t h a t t h e r e w a s a n e m a i l f r o m M r Va n D e r Wa l t
saying but you contracted.
M R G R E E N : Ye s .
ADV SONI SC: Can I show you three emails we will just go
through them and place them on record.

Chairperson these

a r e g o i n g t o b e p a r t o f a d i ff e r e n t b u n d l e .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Is that the one that you – was shown to

Mr Loubser?
A D V S O N I S C : N o , n o t h i s i s a d i ff e r e n t o n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

Do I have it here?

The one you are

showing him or not?
ADV SONI SC:

Not, not in your set of documents at the
Page 187 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
moment.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SONI SC:

T h e y w i l l b e p r e s e n t e d i n a d i ff e r e n t s e t o f

bundles tomorrow Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: It is not a bundle that is here?
ADV SONI SC: It is Bundle H Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:

I thought there was Bundle H during the

d a y, d u r i n g t h e m o r n i n g . W h a t p a g e o f B u n d l e H ?
ADV SONI SC:
10

P a g e 1 8 5 , 1 8 6 a n d 1 8 1 r e s p e c t i v e l y. I a m

going to refer Mr Green to each of them.

Chairperson you

w i l l s e e i t i s m a r k e d S P 1 2 , S P 1 3 a n d S P 11 r e s p e c t i v e l y.
The first one Chairperson is at 18 – 185.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I h a v e g o t i t .
ADV SONI SC: As you please Chairperson. Mr Green have
a look at the document of the 10 June. This is an email from
y o u t o M r Va n D e r Wa l t a n d M r M o n t a n a . D o y o u s e e t h a t ?
M R G R E E N : I t h i n k i t i s t h e 1 0 M a y.
A D V S O N I S C : O h s o r r y 1 0 M a y.
M R G R E E N : Ye s I d o s e e i t .
20

ADV SONI SC: Now this is….
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m u s t a l w a y s j u s t s a y t h e y e a r M r S o n i
so…
ADV SONI SC: Oh as you please Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:

Because when one reads the transcript

one will not know which year you talking about.
Page 188 of 253

I t sa i d i t i s

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
an email dated 10 May 2016 sent at three minutes past
twelve from Mr Louis Green and it is addressed to Jan
A d r i a n Va n D e r Wa l t a n d M r L u c k y M o n t a n a i s c o p i e d .

The

subject matter is electric pool cover keys.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .

Now this is an email you address to

M r Va n D e r Wa l t M r G r e e n .
MR GREEN: That is correct.
ADV SONI SC: And it deals with the pool cover and you are
h a v i n g f o u n d t w o f u r t h e r k e y s f o r t h e e l e c t r i c p o o l c o v e r.
10

MR GREEN: That is correct.
ADV SONI SC: Right. Is the response to you …
CHAIRPERSON:

Let us hear what he says what Mr Green

says to him first.
ADV SONI SC: Oh as you please Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja just read what you say in that email to

M r Va n D e r Wa l t .
MR GREEN:
“Hi Riaan hope you are well.

I received a call from the

Kohlers that they have found an extra two sets of keys for
20

t h e e l e c t r i c p o o l c o v e r.

The keys are in my possession.

When would you be able to meet or should I keep them until
you are around the area?”
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d y o u c o p i e d M r L u c k y M o n t a n a i n
that email, is that right?
M R G R E E N : Ye s I d i d .
Page 189 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON: This – would this have been after the sale
of the property or before?
MR GREEN:

I t h i n k t h i s i s a f t e r.

CHAIRPERSON: After the transfers.
M R G R E E N : I t i s a f t e r t h e t r a n s f e r o f t h e p r o p e r t y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR GREEN:

Yo u k n o w t h e y h a v e – h e h a s a l r e a d y g o t

occupation.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s .

Yo u r e m e m b e r e a r l i e r o n t h e r e w a s

a question whether you dealt with Mr Montana after – after
t h e t r a n s f e r.
M R G R E E N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: I think if I recall.
MR GREEN: If I have mentioned this.
CHAIRPERSON:
sure that you did.
Lucky Montana.

Yo u c o u l d n o t r e m e m b e r o r y o u w o u l d n o t
I am not sure.

But here you do copy Mr

Are you able to say why you would have

copied him here since he was not the purchaser ultimately?
MR GREEN:
20

No I have – I have no idea why I copied him

but he has certainly been copied and I spoke of the follow
up email that I received asking

me why I had

Montana.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I t h i n k t h a t i s t h e …
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: That Mr Soni was checking into.
Page 190 of 253

copied

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
ADV SONI SC:

That is the next one.

h o u r l a t e r, a m I c o r r e c t ?

That is about half an

The email on the 10 May 2016 at

1 2 : 2 6 f r o m M r Va n D e r Wa l t t o y o u r s e l f .
CHAIRPERSON:

And it appears at page 186 and it is

marked SP13.
ADV SONI SC: SP13 yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja SP13 just read it Mr Green.
ADV SONI SC: Sorry can I just make one other point?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

ADV SONI SC:

T h a t M r Va n D e r Wa l t c c ’ s M r M o n t a n a o n

this as well.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SONI SC: So sorry could you read into the record?
MR GREEN:

H i L o u i s , s o t h i s i s a n e m a i l f r o m R i a a n Va n

D e r Wa l t s e n t t o m y s e l f c o p y i n g L u c k y M o n t a n a o n t h e 1 0
May 2016 at 12:26pm. Subject: Electric pool cover keys.
“Hi Louis please explain why you have cc Mr L Montana in
this mail.

Yo u a r e w e l l a w a r e o f t h e f a c t a n d a s a l r e a d y

explained to you last year before the property was even
20

bought by my company that Meneer L Montana has nothing
t o d o w i t h P r e c i s e o r t h i s p r o p e r t y.
action in the future.

Please refrain from this

The pool cover keys can be handed to

Jan from MC Maintenance. I will arrange with him regarding
the keys. Kind Regards.”
ADV SONI SC:

Can I ask you to look another document
Page 191 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
now and that Chairperson that is SP14 which is on page
187.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you coming back to this email or not?
That the one he has just read are you done with it?
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

Before you move to another one.

O n t h i s e m a i l M r G r e e n M r Va n D e r Wa l t a s k s y o u t o e x p l a i n
why you copied Mr Montana in your email to him alright. Do
say yes because when you nod the record does not capture
10

nodding.
MR GREEN: Okay yes yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a g r e e ?
MR GREEN: That is what …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Now I am sure we will get to an email
where maybe you give an explanation or where you will deal
with that but he says here in this email of 10 May 2016 to
you in the second line.
“Before the property was even bought by my company”
B y m y c o m p a n y I t h i n k h e r e f e r s t o P r e c i s e Tr a d e , i s t h a t

20

right?
MR GREEN: Precise.
CHAIRPERSON:
m y c o m p a n y.

Before the property was even bought by

He says you know that before the property

was even bought by my company you know that Mr Montana
h a s n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h P r e c i s e o r t h i s p r o p e r t y.
Page 192 of 253

Is my

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
reading correct?

Is it the same as yours that what he is

conveying is that on the face of it is that even before his
c o m p a n y P r e c i s e Tr a d e b o u g h t t h i s p r o p e r t y M r M o n t a n a
had nothing to do with it?
MR GREEN:

Well how could I possibly know that even

before he bought it that Mr Montana had nothing to do with
i t . M r M o n t a n a w a s m y p u r c h a s e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h a t i s w h y I a m a s k i n g w h e t h e r y o u

understand this email the same way I – as I understand it
10

because that is strange to me.
MR GREEN:

Ja I think I would not read too much into it

being that Afrikaans in his home tongue and you know he is
s p e a k i n g E n g l i s h h e r e j u s t v e r y b a d l y.
CHAIRPERSON: No, no.
MR GREEN: But – but.
CHAIRPERSON:

No just leave that alone.

If you just read

t h e l e t t e r.
M R G R E E N : I f I re a d t h e c o n t e n t s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u u n d e r s t a n d i t t h e s a m e a s I d o .
20

MR GREEN: I absolutely agree with you
CHAIRPERSON:

And that would be factually not correct

namely that Montana had nothing to do with the property
b e f o r e P r e c i s e Tr a d e b e c a m e t h e p u r c h a s e r.
M R G R E E N : A b s o l u t e l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y a l r i g h t .
Page 193 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
ADV SONI SC: Now…
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Soni.
ADV SONI SC: About five minutes later Mr Green you send
– and Chairperson this is at page 187 SP14 you send an
e m a i l t o M r Va n D e r Wa l t b u t y o u d o n o t c c M r M o n t a n a a n d
what do you say in that email?
MR GREEN:
“Apologies.”
ADV SONI SC: So that email now is the 10 May 2016, am I
10

correct?
MR GREEN: That is correct and it is at 12:38pm.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .

Can I ask you to turn to the other

document by…
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y a g a i n M r S o n i I a m s o r r y.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I n y o u r r e s p o n s e t o M r – e m a i l t o M r Va n

D e r Wa l t w h y d o y o u n o t g i v e h i m a n e x p l a n a t i o n . H e a s k e d
you – he asked for an explanation why you were copying Mr
M o n t a n a w h o a c c o r d i n g t o Va n d e r Wa l t h a d n o t h i n g t o d o
20

w i t h t h e p r o p e r t y o r w i t h t h e c o m p a n y.

But when you

respond you say “apologies” but you do not provide an
explanation as to why – how it came about.
MR GREEN: Well.
CHAIRPERSON: Why not?
MR GREEN: I can say that I was wrong in copying Montana
Page 194 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
because it was Precise’s properties that I was dealing with
not Montana.

So I – I should – I should not have copied

Montana in on the email.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR GREEN: And I just apologised for doing it.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ms Langata please move back to your

seat otherwise we – I am being disturbed.

Ye s b u t a r e y o u

saying that copying Mr Montana on your part in that email
was not something you had done consciously?
10

Are you

saying it was oversight or are you saying you had a reason
t o c o p y h i m b u t i f M r Va n D e r Wa l t d i d n o t w a n t y o u t o c o p y
him in then you would not?

I am trying to understand that.

How did it come about that knowing that Mr Montana was no
longer the purchaser you still long after the transfer of the
p r o p e r t y c o p i e d h i m a n d M r Va n D e r Wa l t a s k e d f o r a n
explanation and you just say “apologies” and it is left.
Because I am trying to understand that.
MR GREEN: Ja it was not a conscious – it was – there was
no – it was not a conscious to copy him or eliminate him
20

you know it – I cannot give a reason why I copied him.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR GREEN: I can tell you that I did copy him
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R G R E E N : B u t I c a n n o t t e l l y o u w h y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Do – are you able to say an maybe Mr
Page 195 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
Soni might know this from the documents here but do you
know – would you remember whether after there had been a
change of the identity of the purchaser whether you still
dealt – you still included Mr Montana in matters relating to
this sale or not?
MR GREEN: I doubt it because if I had – I do not know how
much correspondence there actually was after the – the
purchase agreement was changed.

I do not recall and I do

not have the – the information to provide you.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR

GREEN:

How

much

correspondence

there

was

thereafter but had I corresponded and copied Montana in I
a m s u r e I w o u l d h a v e r e c e i v e d t h e s a m e r e s p o n s e f r o m Va n
D e r Wa l t s a y i n g y o u – w h y y o u c o p y i n g M o n t a n a i n o n o u r –
on my business.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR GREEN:

So I can maybe say no there was no other

correspondence up until this.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Hm. Did you at the time or when there

was a change of identity of the purchaser did you establish
w h o t h e d i r e c t o r s o f P r e c i s e Tr a d e w e r e ?

Maybe if the

shareholders – did you establish whether Montana was
i n v o l v e d i n P r e c i s e Tr a d e a t a l l o r n o t ? O r w e r e y o u t o l d o r
not?
MR GREEN:

No I am – I definite – if I am dealing with a
Page 196 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
l e g a l e n t i t y, I a m o b l i g a t e d t o e n s u r e t h a t I a m d e a l i n g w i t h
the right person.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR GREEN: And that there is that person.
CHAIRPERSON: Has proof.
MR GREEN: Is enabled.
CHAIRPERSON: Is authorised ja.
MR GREEN: Is authorised to deal on behalf of the entity as
well.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
M R G R E E N : S o I w o u l d h a v e d o n e a l l o f t h a t s t u ff .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR GREEN: And to the best of recollection he was the sole
d i r e c t o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s t h a t Va n D e r Wa l t o r …
MR GREEN: Not Precise.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Va n D e r Wa l t o r.
M R G R E E N : Va n D e r Wa l t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Va n D e r Wa l t .

20

M R G R E E N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

So, so as far as you would have known at

t h e t i m e M o n t a n a h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h P r e c i s e Tr a d e ?
M R G R E E N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: From your recollection.
MR GREEN: From – yes.
Page 197 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Okay Mr Soni.
ADV SONI SC:
c a l l e d S P 11 .

I have given you another document it is

Chairperson it appears at page 181.

Have

you got it? That is an email dated the 23 June Mr – June –
23 June 2016 Mr Green have you got that in front of you?
M R G R E E N : Ye s I d o .
ADV SONI SC:

Now could you – could you say that – do

you accept that this email was sent by you?
M R G R E E N : Ye s I d o .
10

ADV SONI SC:

And it was sent to Mr Montana and a Ms

Kossakane at PRASA.
MR GREEN: That is correct.
ADV SONI SC: And it was sent on the 23 June 2016.
MR GREEN: Correct.
ADV SONI SC: And what does the text of the email read?
CHAIRPERSON: Before the text the subject matter?
A D V S O N I S C : O h s o r r y.
MR GREEN:

T h e s u b j e c t m a t t e r i s 11 9 E m p i r e P l a c e w h i c h

i s t h e S a n d h u r s t p r o p e r t y.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h i c h i s t h e S a n d h u r s t p r o p e r t y.
M R G R E E N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
MR GREEN:
“ H i Tu m i p l e a s e s e e b e l o w t h e e m a i l s e n t o n 2 1 A p r i l 2 0 1 5 .
Braam called as he did not receive any response and really
Page 198 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
n e e d s t o s o r t t h e c o v e r a t 11 9 E m p i r e P l a c e , S a n d h u r s t .
Please make contact with Braam to make the necessary
arrangements. Best Regards.”
ADV SONI SC:

Now this is a month and a half after you

a p o l o g i s e t o M r Va n D e r Wa l t f o r c c - i n g M r M o n t a n a .
CHAIRPERSON:

Before that Mr Soni.

I am sorry before

t h a t w h o i s Tu m i ?
M R G R E E N : I t h i n k Tu m i i s o r w a s M o n t a n a ’ s PA .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
10

MR GREEN: I think.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Okay alright.

Then continue with

the question Mr Soni.
ADV SONI SC: So Mr Green none of this makes sense now
because you are told not to communicate but you now
e x c l u d e M r Va n D e r Wa l t .
MR GREEN: And communicate.
ADV SONI SC:

But you not only talk to Mr Montana but to

h i s PA a s w e l l .
MR
20

GREEN:

Ja

circumstances here.

I

cannot

–

I

cannot

recall

the

And I do not have the other email –

because I refer to another email here.
ADV SONI SC: Of the 21 April.
MR GREEN: April ja which….
ADV SONI SC:

B u t t h a t w a s b e f o r e t h e 1 0 M a y.

trying to point out.
Page 199 of 253

I am only

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
MR GREEN:

No, no I – I cannot answer I do not know why

or – for what reason I would be sending this to her and to
Mr Montana.
ADV SONI SC:

B u t . . . b u t m o r e i n t ru d i n g i s t h e f a c t t h a t i t

c o n ce r n s t h e v e r y sa m e i s s u e t h a t y o u a d d r e s s e d t o M r Va n
d e r Wa l t a n d d i d n o t g e t a r e s p o n s e f ro m .
MR DE BEER:

J a , t h i s. . . t h i s i s u h , f o r t h e se r vi ci n g . . . i t i s

t h e se r vi ci n g o f t h e p o o l c o v e r.

The... the other one... the

o t h e r e m a i l w a s a b o u t s p a re k e y s.
10

ADV SONI SC:

O k a y.

B u t . . . b u t i t i s st i l l a b o u t t h e p o o l

c o v e r f o r h i s h o u s e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R D E B E E R : Ye s, y e s. S a n d t o n .
A D V S O N I S C : I a m j u st t r yi n g t o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R D E B E E R : Ye s. N o , i t i s . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
ADV SONI SC: It does not make sense at all.
M R D E B E E R : N o u h , i t d o e s n o t . I ca n n o t . . . I c a n n o t u m . . .
I c a n n o t . . . I c a n n o t s a y w h y. I d o n o t k n o w.

20

ADV SONI SC:

B u t . b u t cl e a rl y. . . w e a r e . . . a l l w e a re t r yi n g

t o e st a b l i sh i s.

We h a v e a s e ri e s o f c o m m u n i c a t i o n s.

We

a r e j u st t r yi n g t o sa y, y o u w o u l d n o t h a v e co m m u n i c a t e d
with... with Mr Montana without a good reason.

Wo u l d . . .

w o u l d t h a t b e f a i r t o sa y ?
M R D E B E E R : Ye s, I w o u l d . . . I w o u l d s a y so .
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s.

S o w h a t y o u c a n n o t r e ca l l n o w i s w h y

y o u co m m u n i c a t e d w i t h M o n t a n a i n st e a d o f . . . b u t t h e re m u st
Page 200 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
h a ve b e e n a r e a s o n w h y y o u d i d .
M R D E B E E R : A b s o l u t e l y. A n d e s p e ci a l l y, yo u kn o w, h a vi n g
b e e n e n l i g h t e n e d t o t h e f a ct t h a t I m u st n o t c o m m u n i c a t e
w i t h M o n t a n a o n 11 9 E m p i re b u t h e r e , cl e a rl y u h , I h a v e
communicated with him.
A D V S O N I S C : A n d l e f t M r Va n d e r Wa l t o u t .
MR DE BEER: Ja.
ADV SONI SC:

I m e a n , t h a t s e e m s st r a n g e .

Yo u g o t o t h e

old owner that knew about the new one.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

But if you... maybe because... uh, but

cl e a rl y

Mr

b e c a u se

Green,

you

do

s a y. . .

you

have

s a i d . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
M R D E B E E R : O h , h o l d o n . U h , s o r r y. I c a n . . . I ca n t e l l yo u
w h y.

Because this is 2015 and this is 2016.

T h a t i s w h y.

T h i s M P 11 i s 2 0 1 5 . T h e 2 3 r d o f Ju n e 2 0 1 5 a n d t h i s i s 2 0 1 6 .
ADV SONI SC:

Yo u k n o w, I a l s o l o o k e d a t . . . a t t h a t a n d I

thought it is 2016.
M R D E B E E R : N o , yo u c a n s e e i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l , s o m e o f t h i s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
20

M R D E B E E R : I t i s l i k e I h a v e e x p l a i n e d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

...these members uh... but why would you

t a l k a b o u t t h e s a m e s u b j e ct . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R D E B E E R : A n d y o u c a n se e , i t s a y s I r e f e r t o t h e e m a i l
o f A p ri l 2 0 1 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t . . . b u t . . . b u t i f y o u a r e t a l ki n g a b o u t t h e
Page 201 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
s a m e s u b j e ct , n a m e l y, t h e c o v e r. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
MR DE BEER:

N o , t h i s. . . t h i s. . t h i s w a s t h e s e r v i ci n g o f t h e

p o o l c o v e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

And

what

yo u

have

s p o ke n

t o . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
MR DE BEER:

I n 2 0 1 6 , t h e y h a v e f o u n d a n e xt r a se t o f

k e y s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M R D E B E E R : F o r t h e c o v e r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M R D E B E E R : A n d t h a t i s w h e n I . . . i n 2 0 1 6 , I s p o k e t o Va n
d e r Wa l t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
MR DE BEER:

A n d h e sa y s, “ w h y a r e y o u t a l ki n g t o m e ? ”

B u t i t i s cl e a r h e r e t h a t t h i s e m a i l i s 2 0 1 5 .

Yo u c a n se e i n

t h e b o d y o f t h e e m a i l I s a y, “ p l e a s e s e e b e l o w t h e e m a i l s e n t
o n 2 1 A p ri l 2 0 1 5 ”. S o t h i s e m a i l i s 2 0 1 5 .
CHAIRPERSON:

But

by

that

date...

by

that

date,

2 3 Ju n e 2 0 1 5 . . . l e t u s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
20

M R D E B E E R : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

...let

us

assume

it

is

2015,

was

Mr

M o n t a n a st i l l t h e p u r c h a s e r o f t h e p ro p e rt y?
MR DE BEER:

Uh, no.

I t h i n k t h a t . . . t h a t h a d a l re a d y

happened. That.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o w h y w o u l d yo u b e t a l ki n g t o h i m a b o u t
Page 202 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
t h i s p r o p e rt y i f h e w a s n o l o n g e r t h e p u r c h a se r ?
MR DE BEER:

We l l , c a n I . . . c a n I s e e t h e . . . t h e . . . t h e d a t e

of the agreement? What date...?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s, y o u c a n h a v e a l o o k.

We a re . . . w e

a r e si m p l y t r yi n g t o u n d e r st a n d M r G r e e n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R D E B E E R : N o , n o . I . . . I a m i n t h e s a m e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w e . . . w e . . . w e a r e s o rt i n g t h e d o t s i n

t h a t t h e r e i s a n yt h i n g f u n n y t h a t y o u d i d .

We a r e j u st t r yi n g

t o u n d e r st a n d .
10

M R D E B E E R : N o , I . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R D E B E E R : . . . I a p p r e ci a t e i t a n d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR

DE

BEER:

...I

am

t r yi n g

to

the

b e st

of

my

him

with

the

page

for

the

date

the

a b i l i t y. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , t o a s si st .
M R D E B E E R : . . . t o a s s i st y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
MR DE BEER: Um...
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Mr

Soni,

can

you

help

agreement, please?
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, I a m j u st . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

He

is

l o o ki n g

for

the

a g r e e m e n t . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
MR

DE

BEER:

I

am

j u st

l o o ki n g

Page 203 of 253

at

what

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
agreement...
CHAIRPERSON:

But I do not know if that will help you in

t e r m s o f . . . o h , y o u w a n t t h e a g r e e m e n t b e c h a n g e d o ve r ?
T h e c h a n g e o f t h e i d e n t i t y o f t h e p u r ch a s e r ?
MR DE BEER: Ja, what... what date...
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
MR DE BEER: So there was an email about the um...
CHAIRPERSON: Uh, Mr Soni, are you able to help him?
ADV SONI SC:
10

Ye s.

T h e a g re e m e n t w i t h P r e ci s e Tr a d e i s

the 26th of November 2014 Chairperson.
MR DE BEER: Ja.
A D V S O N I S C : S o t h i s i s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON: So it is long after?
A D V S O N I S C : . . . a m o n t h l a t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , n o n o t . . . n o t n e ce s s a ri l y l o n g a f t e r b u t
i t i s a f t e r.
M R D E B E E R : Ye s, i t i s a f t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. J a .
ADV SONI SC: It is between the two.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. S o . . . . s o a n d t h e r e f o re i t m e a n s
t h a t w h e n yo u w r o t e t o M r Va n d e r Wa l t a n d h e . . . h e s a i d t o
y o u w h y yo u a r e c o p yi n g M r M o n t a n a , y o u w e r e n o t i n cl u d i n g
M o n t a n a i n r e g a r d t o t h i s p r o p e rt y a f t e r t h e c h a n g e o f t h e
p u r c h a s e r f o r t h e f i r st t i m e ? Yo u h a d d o n e s o b e f o re ?
M R D E B E E R : Ye s, b u t i f y o u . . . i f y o u l o o k a t t h i s o n e w h i ch
Page 204 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
w a s i n b e t w e e n t h e t w o e m a i l s, I n e v e r e v e n r e f e r r e d t o u m ,
u h , Va n d e r Wa l t h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

No, no.

I... I... I accept that.

The

point that I am trying to see whether you and I can agree on
i s t h a t t h e r e a r e a t l e a st n o w t w o o c c a si o n s w h e n y o u a re i n
i n v o l vi n g . . . yo u w e r e i n v o l v i n g M r M o n t a n a i n r e g a r d t o t h i s
p r o p e rt y. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R D E B E E R : W h e r e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:
10

. . . d u ri n g a t i m e w h e n h e w a s n o l o n g e r a

p u r c h a s e r.
M R D E B E E R : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a g r e e w i t h m e o n t h a t ?
M R D E B E E R : [ N o a u d i b l e re p l y]
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , j a . O k a y.
M R D E B E E R : C o r r e ct .
CHAIRPERSON:

So... so but then... but to go back to... to

t h e p o i n t w a s, w h e n w e a r e l o o ki n g a t t h e d a t e s o f t h e t w o
emails and you discovered that the one is 2015 and not
2016.
20

M R D E B E E R : C o r r e ct .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e . . . t h e q u e st i o n t h a t u h , M r S o n i h a d

a s k e d yo u w a s, w h y w o u l d y o u h a v e b e e n c o m m u n i c a t i n g
with Mr Montana at a time when he had nothing to do, to
y o u r k n o w l e d g e . . . i f t o y o u r kn o w l e d g e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R D E B E E R : Ye s.
Page 205 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:

. . . h e h a d n o t h i n g w i t h t h i s p r o p e rt y ?

And

y o u h a d e a rl i e r s a i d t h a t y o u ca n n o t e x p l a i n u h , w h o . . . i s
t h a t st i l l y o u r a n s w e r t h a t . . . ? Yo u c a n s e e t h a t i t i s a w k w a r d
. . . [ i n d i st i n ct ]
M R D E B E E R : N o , I u n d e r st a n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s, y e s.
M R D E B E E R : A n d . . . y o u k n o w, I . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
MR DE BEER: ...at this point in my life, I was very ill.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s.
M R D E B E E R : U m , I w a s o n . . . I w a s h e a vi l y m e d i ca t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M R D E B E E R : A n d I ca n n o t t e l l y o u . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M R D E B E E R : . . . w h y. . . w h y I d i d t h i s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M R D E B E E R : T h e r e i s n o , yo u k n o w. . .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R D E B E E R : I t . . . i t i s w h a t i t i s.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s.
M R D E B E E R : T h e f a ct s a r e h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M R D E B E E R : I t i s i n w ri t i n g . I t i s i n b l a c k- a n d - w h i t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M R D E B E E R : A n d I ca n n o t t e l l y o u w h y.
Page 206 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M R D E B E E R : B e c a u se i t s h o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s.

We l l , M r S o n i m a y b e y o u . . . y o u . . .

m a y b e y o u n e e d t o p u t t o M r Va n d e r Wa l t ( si c ) w h a t y o u . . .
w h a t yo u . . . y o u t h i n k t h e p o si t i o n i s . U h , i f i t i s n o t t o o e a rl y
to do that.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u se m a yb e t h a t m i g h t h e l p h i m e v e n

t o r e m e m b e r.
10

A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t i f y o u i n t e n d e d t o d o t h a t a l i t t l e l a t e r,

t h a t i s f i n e . I a m j u st s a yi n g .
ADV SONI SC: No, I... I would like to.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m j u st s a yi n g . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

...maybe it.. it is the time to put to him so

h e ca n c o m m e n t .
ADV SONI SC:

U h , M r G r e e n , t h i s i s a p r o p e rt y t h a t i s

p u r c h a s e s f o r n e a rl y R 1 4 m i l l i o n , c o r r e ct ?
20

M R D E B E E R : [ N o a u d i b l e re p l y]
ADV SONI SC:

Mr Montana comes to the show house.

b u y s t h e p r o p e rt y.

He

H e f i n d s a d e p o si t i s p a i d b y so m e b o d y

w h o i s sa y i n g h e i s p a yi n g m o n e y o n b e h a l f o f M r M o n t a n a
M E C H A N I C A L I N T E R R U P TI O N
ADV SONI SC: Then there is a change in... and you are told
Page 207 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
“p l e a s e c h a n g e t h e n a m e o f t h e p u r c h a se r ”. T h e n a f t e r, yo u
communicate.

Even after the change, you communicated

with Mr Montana.
M R D E B E E R : C o r r e ct .
ADV SONI SC:

Until you are told “why are you dealing with

Mr Montana?”

N o w, i t . . . i t a p p e a r s st r a n g e t h a t a p e r s o n

w h o w a s. . . h a d i n t e r e st i n t h i s a n d w h o w a s n o t . . . u h , t h e u h ,
M r Va n d e r Wa l t w a s n o t a t a n a r m ’s l e n g t h w i t h M r M o n t a n a .
H e i s t h e o n e w h o p a i d t h e d e p o si t . T h a t R 5 m i l l i o n d e p o si t .
10

I t i s p a i d b y M r Va n d e r Wa l t . I t i s p a i d b y P r e ci s e Tr a d e .
MR DE BEER:

I d o n o t kn o w w h o p a i d i t .

The money came

f ro m t h a t a c c o u n t , y e s.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
M R D E B E E R : T h e t r u st a c c o u n t .
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s.

Ye s, b u t M r Va n d e r Wa l t ’s t ru st

account.
M R D E B E E R : Ye s.
A D V S O N I S C : J a . A n d s o , a l l w e j u st w a n t t o . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
MR DE BEER: It was not unusual.
20

ADV SONI SC: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , I . . . I . . . I t h i n k M r G re e n , I t h i n k y o u a r e
m a y b e s a yi n g a n d I d o n o t k n o w. . . I j u st w a n t t o cl a ri f y
b e ca u s e m a y b e t h a t i s t h e a r e a o f c o n f u si o n i n u h , i n re g a r d
to

yo u r

answer

and

Mr

S o n i ’s

q u e st i o n .

Yo u

may

be

m e a n i n g , y o u w e r e n o t a w a r e w h e n t h e d e p o si t w a s m a d e ,
Page 208 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
w h o m a d e t h e d e p o si t ? O r i s t h a t n o t t h e c a s e ?
MR DE BEER:

No, no.

I do not... I have no idea who paid

t h e d e p o si t . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M R D E B E E R : . . . o t h e r t h a n t h a t t h e d e p o si t c a m e o n Mr Va n
d e r Wa l t ’s t r u st a c c o u n t t o o u r t ru st a c c o u n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh, you... you knew that when you had

t h a t p a y m e n t o f t h e d e p o si t h a p p e n e d ?

Yo u k n e w t h a t . . .

where it came from?
10

M R D E B E E R : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
M R D E B E E R : B e c a u se I r e ce i ve d t h e . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : A l l ri g h t . T h e n w e a r e o n t h e s a m e p a g e .
MR DE BEER: ...the uh, the email.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, then you are on the same page. Ja.
M R D E B E E R : Ye s.
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
ADV SONI SC:

20

A n d t h e d e p o si t i s m a d e , i f y o u l o o k a t u h ,

p a g e 8 9 o f t h o s e d o c u m e n t s.

T h e b e n e f i ci a r y r e f e r e n c e

number is said to be Montana.

A l t h o u g h t h e d e p o si t i s p a i d

b y M r Va n d e r Wa l t ’s f i rm , i t . . . i t i s i n r e g a r d s t o u h , M r
M o n t a n a ’s p u r c h a s e .
M R D E B E E R : Ye s, b e c a u s e M r M o n t a n a w a s t h e p u r c h a se r.
ADV

SONI

SC:

And

then,

s u d d e n l y. . .

Page 209 of 253

and

you

a re

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
communicating

with

Mr

Montana

throughout

this

p e ri o d

t o g e t h e r w i t h M r Va n d e r Wa l t e v e n a f t e r t h e c h a n g e i n
ownership.
M R D E B E E R : Ye s.
ADV SONI SC: And then suddenly you are told but why are
y o u t a l ki n g t o M r Mo n t a n a ?

D o e s t h a t n o t s o u n d s t ra n g e ?

A n d I t o l d y o u l a st y e a r.
M R D E B E E R : J a . We l l , I n e v e r. . . I m e a n , I n e v e r u h . . . I d i d
n o t u n d e r st a n d t h e m e c h a n i c s o f t h e e n t i t i e s a n d , y o u k n o w,
10

t h e a r r a n g e m e n t s b e t w e e n t h e p a rt i e s.

I t i s. . . i t i s n o t u m ,

u n co m m o n f o r so m e o n e t o s a y:
“Yo u k n o w w h a t ?
personal name.

I am not going to put this into my
I a m g o i n g t o p u t i t i n t o a n e n t i t y.

U h , I a m g o i n g t o p u t i t i n t o a t r u st .

It is going to

b e co m e a d e v e l o p m e n t p ro p e rt y”.
So it is something that happened.
ADV SONI SC: Right.
MR DE BEER: Um, so...
ADV SONI SC:
20

S o o n o u r v e r si o n , t h i s i s n o t s o m e t h i n g

t h a t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
MR DE BEER: It is not unusual.
A D V S O N I S C : I t m a y n o t b e u n u s u a l . I a m a s ki n g i n a l l t h e
ci r c u m st a n c e s, d i d i t n o t st ri k e y o u a s st r a n g e ?
M R D E B E E R : We l l , w h e n i t st r u c k m e a s st r a n g e w a s w h e n
I g o t t h e . . . t h e m a i l f r o m u m , Va n d e r Wa l t , s a yi n g , “ w h y
Page 210 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
a r e . . . w h y d i d yo u co p y M o n t a n a i n , i n t h i s co m m u n i c a t i o n ? ”
F o r m e t h a t w a s s t ra n g e .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
MR DE BEER:

Yo u k n o w, I d i d n o t e v e n . . . i t d i d n o t e v e n

enter my mind to divorce the two.

There was no... I never

h a d f o rm a l n o t i f i c a t i o n t h a t t h i s i s h o w i t i s.

So, I did not

k n o w.
ADV SONI SC: Let me go back to something else about that
email.
10

M r Va n d e r Wa l t s a y s t o y o u :

“B u t l o o k, I t o l d y o u

l a st ye a r t h a t h e h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h t h i s p r o p e rt y”.

Is

that true? Did he tell you that
MR DE BEER:

I d o n o t r e ca l l .

I cannot... I cannot say I

re c a l l h i m t e l l i n g m e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o e s t h e e m a i l s a y. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R D E B E E R : T h e e m a i l s a y s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . t h e p re v i o u s y e a r.
M R D E B E E R : . . . ”I e x p l a i n e d t o y o u l a st y e a r”.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
M R D E B E E R : Yo u kn o w, m a y b e t h a t w a s u h , h i s t e l l i n g m e :
20

“L i st e n , I a m b u yi n g t h e p r o p e rt y n o w ”.

U m , t h a t i s. . . h e . . .

w h a t h e i s c o n si d e r i n g h i s e x p l a n a t i o n l a st y e a r t h a t i t i s n o t
M o n t a n a a n y m o r e . I . . . I ca n n o t . . . I c a n n o t a n s w e r. . .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r S o n i . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
MR DE BEER:

I do not recall uh... I never received an

o ff i ci a l n o t i f i ca t i o n s a yi n g t h a t t h i s i s w h a t t h e st r u ct u r e i s
Page 211 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
a n d . . . yo u k n o w, I . . . I h a d a l w a y s t h o u g h t t h a t t h e y w e re u h ,
p a rt n e r s i n d e v e l o p m e n t .
ADV SONI SC: Why did you think that?
M R D E B E E R : T h a t i s j u st w h a t . . . j u st f ro m t h e i r i n t e r a ct i o n
and...
A D V S O N I S C : T h e i n t e r a ct i o n w i t h . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o d i d y o u t h i n k w e r e p a rt n e r s?
M R D E B E E R : U h , M o n t a n a a n d u m , Va n d e r Wa l t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Va n d e r Wa l t .
10

MR DE BEER:

J a , t h a t t h e y h a d e n t e r e d i n t o a p a rt n e r s h i p

in this particular development.
CHAIRPERSON: What development?
MR DE BEER: Um, which is not unusual.
CHAIRPERSON: What development?
M R D E B E E R : W e l l . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

Wa s u n l i st e d d e v e l o p m e n t .

That... that

p r o p e rt y S a n d h u r st o r i s n o t u h . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
MR DE BEER: It has not been... it was a house.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A h o u s e . Ye s.
20

MR DE BEER:

But it had not been developed.

I mean,

t h e y. . . u h , i t h a s n o t b e e n d e v e l o p e d w h e r e t h e H u rl i n g h a m ’s
n u m b e r 1 h a s b e e n . . . t h e d e v e l o p m e n t w o r k h a s st a rt e d o n
t h a t p r o p e rt y b u t u h , u m S a n d h u r st . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t a r e yo u t a l ki n g a b o u t w h e n y o u s a y i t
w a s. . . i t h a d n o t b e e n d e v e l o p e d b u t i t w a s a h o u s e ?
Page 212 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
MR DE BEER:

We l l , I . . . I t h o u g h t t h e . . . t h e i n t e n t i o n w a s t o

d e ve l o p t h e S a n d h u r st p r o p e rt y, t o d o s o m e t h i n g e l s e .

Yo u

k n o w, a n d t h a t i s w h y I t h o u g h t u m , t h e y w e r e p a rt n e r s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o g a v e y o u t h a t i m p r e s si o n ?
M R D E B E E R : I b e g yo u r p a r d o n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o g a v e y o u t h a t i m p r e s si o n ?
MR DE BEER:

No, no one.

I t . . . i t i s j u st t h e i r i n t e r a ct i o n

t h a t g a v e m e t h e i m p r e s si o n .

It was not uh... there was no

f o r m a l “t h i s i s w h a t w e d o a n d h e r e i s o u r u h , d e v e l o p m e n t
10

plan or document”.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
MR DE BEER:

I t i s j u st f r o m w h a t . . . w h a t w a s s a i d t h a t I

d e ri v e d u m , m y t h o u g h t s.

Yo u k n o w, i n m y m i n d h o w I

t h o u g h t i t w a s st r u ct u r e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Soni, continue.
ADV SONI SC:

Ye s.

Yo u s a y t h e i n t e r a ct i o n s w e re . . . w e r e

you in their presence when the two of them were together?
MR DE BEER:

I have never been with the two of them

t o g e t h e r e v e r.
20

ADV SONI SC:

W h e n y o u s a y i n t e r a ct i o n s, w h a t a r e y o u

t a l ki n g a b o u t ?
MR DE BEER:

J a , j u st t h e . . . t h e . . . w h e n y o u kn o w, w h e n I

m e t w i t h Va n d e r Wa l t a n d w h e n I m e t w i t h M o n t a n a , I
t h o u g h t t h a t u m , t h e y h a d m o ve d i t f ro m M o n t a n a i n t o a
d e ve l o p m e n t

co m p a n y

to

a

p r o p e rt y

Page 213 of 253

company

to

do

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
s o m e t h i n g w i t h t h e p r o p e rt y.
A D V S O N I S C : B u t yo u t h o u g h t M o n t a n a w a s st i l l i n v o l v e d ?
MR DE BEER:

Ye s.

Uh, I did not know that this has been

s e p a r a t e o r, y o u k n o w, I h a d n o i d e a o f a n y o f t h i s st u ff t h a t
u h , I a m si t t i n g h e re b e i n g q u e st i o n e d .
ADV SONI SC:
e a rl i e r,

Ja.

raised

all

Now Mr Green, when I talked to you
these

matters

with

you.

Yo u

might

re m e m b e r. I s h o w e d yo u a l l t h e se e m a i l s.
M R D E B E E R : Ye s.
10

A D V S O N I S C : I t i s n o t a q u e st i o n o f q u e st i o n i n g y o u . I t i s
t r yi n g t o m a k e s e n s e .
M R D E B E E R : N o , n o . I . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V S O N I S C : O f w h a t d o e s n o t a p p e a r t o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R D E B E E R : A b s o l u t e l y.
A D V S O N I S C : . . . t o . . . S o I w o u l d l i k e y o u t o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
MR DE BEER:

A n d t h e r e a re u n f o rt u n a t e l y b i g g a p s.

mean,

h a ve

I

would

t ra n s a ct i o n .

There

had

piles

of

papers

was

p a p e r w o r k.

of

There

uh,
i s. . .

I

every
and

correspondence.
20

T h e r e i s n e v e r. . . I n e v e r u h , d e l v e i n t o u h , u m , a
si t u a t i o n l i k e t h i s w i t h o u t p a p e r w o r k w h e re I c a n t e l l yo u
e x a ct l y a u t o m a t i c a l l y w h a t h a p p e n e d .

I do not have that.

Uh...
ADV SONI SC:

B u t a n y w a y.

Can I get back to your

a ff i d a vi t ? W h a t y o u sa i d i n y o u r a ff i d a vi t . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
Page 214 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:

Wa i t , b e f o r e . . . b e f o r e . . . b e f o re y o u d o t h a t

Mr Soni.
A D V S O N I S C : O h , so r ry.
CHAIRPERSON:

When you copied Mr Montana um, when

y o u se n t a n e m a i l t o M r Va n d e r Wa l t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R D E B E E R : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

. . . a n d M r Va n d e r Wa l t s a i d :

“Explain to

m e w h y y o u a r e c o p yi n g u h , M r M o n t a n a ? ”
M R D E B E E R : M r Mo n t a n a .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

“Yo u k n o w t h a t h e h a s g o t n o t h i n g t o d o

w i t h t h i s u h , c o m p a n y. . . m y c o m p a n y o r t h e p r o p e rt y ”.
d i d y o u n o t sa y t o h i m :

Why

“O h , I t h o u g h t y o u . . . y o u g u y s w e r e

p a rt n e r s i n s o m e d e v e l o p m e n t ? ”

Because that is the only

t h i n g I c a n t h i n k o f n o w. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
MR DE BEER: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

. . . u h , t h a t m i g h t h a v e i n f l u e n ce d y o u .

Is

that what might have influenced you?
MR DE BEER:

N o , I . . . I m e a n , m y n a t u r a l i s t o j u st . . . o k a y,

s o r r y. I h a d i t a l l w r o n g . U h . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h a t i s n o t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R D E B E E R : U h . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

But that is not natural.

That is not a

n a t u r a l r e a ct i o n M r G r e e n .
MR DE BEER: Is that not?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f y o u g e n u i n e l y b e l i e v e d t h a t t h e t w o w e re
Page 215 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
i n a p a rt n e r s h i p t h a t r e l a t e s t o t h i s p r o p e rt y a n d yo u c o p y M r
M o n t a n a . A n d M r Va n d e r Wa l t o b j e ct s a n d c a l l s u p o n y o u t o
g i v e a n e x p l a n a t i o n , i t se e m s t o b e t h e n a t u r a l o r u h ,
re a ct i o n w o u l d b e :

“O h , b u t I t h o u g h t y o u g u y s w e r e

p a rt n e r s. T h a t i s w h y I co p i e d h i m ”.
O r, y o u m i g h t s a y, “I a m s o r ry.

I thought that...”

y o u w o u l d sa y, “ T h i s i s h o w i t c o m e s a b o u t .

Yo u . . .

This is my

u n d e r st a n d i n g . ”
H e m i g h t s a y, “ W h e r e d i d y o u g e t t h a t f r o m ”.
10

Or

w h a t e v e r. B u t y o u w o u l d o ff e r t h i s e x p l a n a t i o n b e c a u s e t h a t
is the genuine explanation.
MR DE BEER:

J a , I m e a n , m y. . . m y re a ct i o n w a s:

“I a m

s o r r y. Yo u k n o w, l i k e , I re a l l y d i d n o t k n o w a n d a p o l o g i e s.

I

uh, I had no idea.” Is that not what apologies suggests?
CHAIRPERSON:

H’m.

No, no, no.

I a m j u st t h i n ki n g i f . . .

i f . . . i f . . . i f s o m e b o d y s e e m s t o c ri t i ci s e y o u o n s o m e t h i n g t h a t
y o u g e n u i n e l y b e l i e v e w a s f i n e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
MR DE BEER: H’m.
C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . u h , t h e n y o u w o u l d s a y, “P l e a s e h e l p m e
20

b e ca u s e

this

is

how

I

have

always

u n d e r st o o d

your

re l a t i o n s h i p t o b e b u t i f i t i s n o t u h , I w i l l n o t b u t t h i s i s w h y I
did it.

O t h e r w i s e , I h a d n o o t h e r re a s o n ”.

That is what I

would have expected.
M R D E B E E R : O h , yo u k n o w, m y r e s p o n s e i s w h a t i s h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
Page 216 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
MR DE BEER:

I c a n n o t [ l a u g h s] . . . I c a n n o t c h a n g e m y

re s p o n s e . T h a t w a s m y r e s p o n s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M R D E B E E R : T h o u g h , y o u k n o w, b e i t ri g h t o r w r o n g . T h a t
w a s t h e r e s p o n s e . A n d I . . . I ca n n o t sa y t o y o u u h , I d i d n o t
h a ve t y p e u p a n e m a i l o r. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
MR DE BEER:

. . . t o p h o n e h i m o r. . . M y r e s p o n s e w a s

a p o l o g i e s. L i k e , s o r r y. U h , c a rr y o n .
10

CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m.
M R D E B E E R : Yo u k n o w i t w a s. . .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
M R D E B E E R : I t . . . i t . . . m y j o b w a s d o n e . I w a s f i n i sh e d .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
MR DE BEER:

There was no... I did not have to do any of

this uh, remote keys and uh, pool fence, maintenance.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
M R D E B E E R : T h a t w a s. . . m y j o b w a s d o n e . T h e m i n u t e t h e
p r o p e rt y t r a n sf e rr e d , I a m f i n i sh e d .
20

CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
M R D E B E E R : S o I h a d n o o b l i g a t i o n t o Va n D e r Wa l t t o u m ,
l o o k a f t e r a n yt h i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m.
M R D E B E E R : J a , I . . . I d i d r e c e i v e u m , a m a n d a t e f ro m h i m
in 2017...
Page 217 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
M R D E B E E R : . . . t o se l l t h e p r o p e rt y f o r h i m .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m. H’m.
MR DE BEER: And then my obligations were to him.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
MR DE BEER:

A n d I w a s n o w i n a si t u a t i o n w h e re I w a s

answerable to him.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m . M r S o n i , co n t i n u e .
A D V S O N I S C : U h , M r G r e e n , I j u s t w a n t t o a s k. I n re s p e ct
10

o f y o u r r e c o l l e ct i o n o f t h i s, w h a t yo u s e t o u t i n yo u r. . . i n y o u r
a ff i d a vi t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R D E B E E R : Ye s.
ADV SONI SC:

. . . i s y o u r e c o l l e ct i o n a t t h e t i m e a n d s o o n

after all these things happened?
M R D E B E E R : Ye s.
A D V S O N I S C : C h a i r, I h a v e n o f u r t h e r q u e st i o n s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m . A i . We l l , I t h o u g h t y o u w o u l d u h , p u t
t o M r Va n d e r Wa l t ( si c) w h a t m a y h a v e h a p p e n e d a t l e a st .
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : U m , h a vi n g r e g a r d t o a l o t o f e vi d e n c e t h a t
h a s b e e n l e d h e r e a n d s o m e o f t h e e vi d e n c e t h a t w i l l st i l l b e
led, anyone knowing the evidence that has been led and
s o m e o f t h e e vi d e n c e t h a t i s st i l l t o b e l e d , i s l i k e l y t o
wonder

w h e t h e r,

b e si d e s

trade,

did

not

become

the

p u r c h a s e r. . . w a s n o t t h e p u r c h a s e r si m p l y b y n a m e i n f o r m
Page 218 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
but the real of owner of the house was going to be Mr
Montana.
O r t h a t w h a t e ve r n a m e w a s w ri t t e n i n t h e d e e d ’s o ff i c e
a s t h e o w n e r o f t h e p r o p e rt y, t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s g o i n g t o
enjoy the occupation, whether it was not Mr Montana.
N o w i f t h a t i s t h e p o si t i o n , i t m a y m a k e s e n s e w h y M r
Montana would continue to be involved in regard to this
p r o p e rt y a f t e r t h e re h a d b e e n a c h a n g e o f t h e i d e n t i t y o f t h e
p u r c h a s e r.
10

I t w o u l d e x p l a i n w h y u h , y o u w o u l d h a v e w ri t t e n . . . y o u
w o u l d h a v e c o p i e d h i m w h e n y o u w r o t e t o M r Va n d e r Wa l t
a b o u t t h e ke y s. Wa s i t t h e ke y s o r t h e c o v e r?
M R D E B E E R : T h e k e y s o f t h e p r o p e rt y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

I t w o u l d e x p l a i n w h y.

Because if Mr

M o n t a n a w a s g o i n g t o b e t h e p e r so n w h o w a s g o i n g t o
occupy the property or if he was the... the real owner of the
p r o p e rt y, h e w o u l d b e t h e p e r s o n w h o w o u l d n e e d t o k n o w
w h e r e t o f i n d t h e k e y s a n d so a n d s o o n . D i d y o u . . . w h a t d o
y o u t h i n k a b o u t t h a t p o s si b i l i t y ?
20

M R D E B E E R : J a , u h . . . yo u k n o w u m , u n f o rt u n a t e l y, Va n d e r
Wa l t s a y s, a s I e x p l a i n e d t o y o u l a st y e a r.

S o I c a n n o t sa y,

w e l l , h e d i d n o t e x p l a i n t o m e l a st y e a r, t h a t h e i s. . . y o u
k n o w, i t i s q u i t e p o s si b l e t h a t h e d i d .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
MR DE BEER:

So I... and he put in his letter here that he
Page 219 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
e x p l a i n e d t o m e l a st ye a r.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
M R D E B E E R : S o a t t h e t i m e o f u m , m y. . . m y r e s p o n d i n g t o
t h i s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
M R D E B E E R : . . . a n d j u st s a yi n g a p o l o g i e s. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
MR DE BEER:

. . . u h , i t i s p o s si b l e t h a t h e h a d e xp l a i n e d t o

m e t h e y e a r o r u h , a co u p l e o f m o n t h s p ri o r t o t h i s.
10

CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
M R D E B E E R : U m . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e q u e st i o n s I a m . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
M R D E B E E R : U h . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

. . . t h e q u e st i o n I a m p u t t i n g t o y o u i s,

whether you agree that if the person was going to occupy the
p r o p e rt y w a s M r M o n t a n a , e v e n t h o u g h t h e p u r c h a s e r w a s
P r e ci s e Tr a d e o r, i f i n . . . i f t h e re al o w n e r o f t h e p r o p e rt y w a s
g o i n g t o b e M o n t a n a e v e n t h o u g h o n p a p e r.
M R D E B E E R : U h . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . o f P r e ci s e Tr a d e , w o u l d y o u a g r e e t h a t i t
w o u l d m a k e s e n s e w h y y o u w o u l d k e e p o n u m , i n v o l vi n g
him?
MR

DE

BEER:

Uh,

if...

if

I

can

say

that

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f t h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r st a n d i n g .
Page 220 of 253

when

I

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
MR DE BEER:

We l l , w h e n I f i r st s h o w e d M o n t a n a t h e

h o u s e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
MR DE BEER:

. . . I . . . i t w a s m y u n d e r st a n d i n g t h e n t h a t h e

would occupy the house.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
MR DE BEER: That he would move in and live in this house.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
M R D E B E E R : T h a t w a s m y u n d e r st a n d i n g .
10

CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
M R D E B E E R : U m , t h e ci r cu m st a n c e s c h a n g e d .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
MR DE BEER:

B e c a u s e P r e ci se Tr a d i n g b e ca m e t h e l e g a l

e n t i t y t h a t o w n e d t h a t p r o p e rt y.
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
MR DE BEER:
occupy

the

p r o p e rt y ?

Um, or let me ask why did Montana not

house

once

P r e ci s e

got

occupation

fo

the

W h y d i d n o t P re c i se d o a . . . a r e n t a l d e a l t o

M o n t a n a ? B e c a u s e t h e y w e re t r yi n g t o r e n t t h e p r o p e rt y o u t .
20

I t h i n k t h e y d i d r e n t t h e p ro p e rt y o u t .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m?
MR DE BEER:

S o w h y d i d n o t M o n t a n a r e n t t h e p ro p e rt y

f ro m P r e ci s e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s,

but

you

are

not

a n s w e ri n g

my

q u e st i o n . M y q u e st i o n i s. D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t i t w o u l d m a k e
Page 221 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
s e n se o r yo u . . . i t w o u l d h a v e m a d e s e n s e f o r y o u t o i n v o l v e
Mr Montana even though he was not the purchaser of the
p r o p e rt y, i f yo u r u n d e r st a n d i n g a t t h e t i m e w a s t h a t h e w a s
g o i n g t o o c c u p y t h e p r o p e rt y o r h e w a s t h e r e a l o w n e r o f t h e
p r o p e rt y ?
M R D E B E E R : A l l ri g h t . S o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r st a n d i n g .
M R D E B E E R : I f y o u a r e a s ki n g m e , d i d I b e l i e v e h e w a s t h e
re a l o w n e r o f t h e p r o p e rt y ? T h e a n s w e r i s n o .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s, b u t . . . b u t i f y o u . . . i f t h a t w a s y o u r

u n d e r st a n d i n g , w o u l d i t . . . w o u l d y o u a g re e t h a t , t h e n i t w o u l d
make sense to involve him?
M R D E B E E R : I f I t h o u g h t t h a t h e w a s t h e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e a l o w n e r.
M R D E B E E R : . . . t h a t u h , Va n d e r Wa l t w a s a p r o x y o r. . . ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , t h a t ki n d o f t h i n g .
MR DE BEER: Uh...
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
M R D E B E E R : T h e n ye s, I w o u l d . . .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
MR DE BEER: I would agree with you.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s, y e s.

O t h e r w i s e , yo u c a n n o t t h i n k o f

a n y o t h e r re a s o n w h y y o u w o u l d i n v o l v e s o m e b o d y w h o i s
n o t t h e o w n e r o f t h e p r o p e rt y.
MR DE BEER: Ja.
Page 222 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:

W h o i s n o t t h e p u r c h a s e r, w h o i s n o t t h e

t e n a n t i n d i s c u s si n g a b o u t t h e k e y s a n d s o o n .
M R D E B E E R : C o r r e ct .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

O k a y.

A l ri g h t .

Um, it... it... it... it

m a y b e t h a t w e . . . I d o n o t k n o w i f w e w i l l p u t e v e r yt h i n g t h a t
s h o u l d b e p u t t o M r Va n d e r. . . M r G r e e n ?
A D V S O N I S C : Ye s, C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Um...
A D V S O N I S C : C h a i r p e r so n , t h e d i ff i c u l t y i s t h a t M r G r e e n ’s
10

re c o l l e ct i o n o f t h i s d o e s n o t g o b e y o n d t h e . . . w h a t h e sa i d i n
h i s. . .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, b u t t h e q u e st i o n o f w h a t h e k n e w a n d
is it not because if he knew the position to be that Montana
was the real owner then it makes sense that he was
involving him.
MR SONI SC:

Ye s , y e s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Or that he was going to occupy or that

he had some rights in the property under …[intervenes]
MR SONI SC:
20

Ja.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

Ja, then it makes sense.

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

B u t i t d o e s n o t k n o w, h e d i d n o t k n o w, i t

does not make sense.
MR SONI SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON: And he concedes that.
Page 223 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
MR SONI SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

It does not make sense.

should leave at this, you can reflect on it.

Maybe we
Mr van der

Wa l t , w e m a y o r m a y n o t a s k y o u t o c o m e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]
MR SONI SC:

Mr Green.

CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

I am terribly – it is late in

t h e d a y. M r G r e e n , w e m i g h t c a l l y o u b a c k l a t e r o n .
MR GREEN:

No problem.

CHAIRPERSON:
10

And in the meantime, you might or might

not be able to refresh your memory in one way or another
but I think let us leave it at that for this evening.
MR SONI SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you very much, Mr Green, we

appreciate that you came and for all the patience.

I am

sorry that we are finished so late.
MS DE BEER:

No…

CHAIRPERSON:

But

thank

you

very

much,

you

are

excused.
MR SONI SC:
20

MR GREEN:
MR SONI SC:

Thank you very much.
Thank you.
I will just leave this here.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

Ye s , y e s .
Chairperson, our next witness is going to

b e M s K a r i n d e B e e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , l e t h e r c o m e t h r o u g h .
Page 224 of 253

Those files,

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
does Ms de Beer need them or else they could be taken
a w a y, t h o s e f i l e s t h a t M r G r e e n w a s u s i n g .
MR SONI SC:

No. No.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

She does not need any documents?

No, she just needs …[intervenes]

CHAIRPERSON:

Then they must be taken away if she

does not need them. Does she need that file?
MS DE BEER:

J u s t G , C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON:
10

O h , o k a y.

M s d e B e e r, I a m t e r r i b l y

s o r r y, w e h a v e k e p t y o u l i k e t h e w h o l e d a y.

We really

apologise but we are very grateful that you have been
patient. Thank you very much.

Please administer the oath

or affirmation?
MS KAREN DE BEER:
CHAIRPERSON:

(d.s.s.)

Thank you very much, you may be

s e a t e d . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d , M r S o n i .
MR SONI SC:

As you please, Chairperson.

M s d e B e e r,

f i r s t l y, l e t m e t h a n k y o u f o r c o m i n g a l l t h e w a y f r o m C a p e
To w n .
20

I know you do live in Pretoria but you shortened

y o u r t r i p i n C a p e To w n a n d w e a r e v e r y, v e r y g r a t e f u l t o
you.

M s d e B e e r, y o u h a v e a s t a t e m e n t i n f r o n t o f y o u t h a t

starts at page 49 of bundle G and ends at page 50, is that
correct?
MS DE BEER:

Ye s .

MR SONI SC:

Now you have read this statement.
Page 225 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
MS DE BEER:

Ye s .

MR SONI SC:

Recently as well.

MS DE BEER:

Ja, I did.

MR SONI SC:

Do you confirm that what is contained in

this statement is true and correct?
MS DE BEER:

A b s o l u t e l y.

CHAIRPERSON:

Hang on one second, we are talking

about a statement, a sworn statement, appearing at page
49,
10

handwritten

49

of

bundle

G

and

the

statement

STATEMENT

BY

KAREN

is

admitted as EXHIBIT SS15.
HANDWRITTEN

SWORN

DE

BEER HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT SS15
MR SONI SC:

As you please, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

It is a statement by Karen de Beer,

is that right?
MS DE BEER:

That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:

Yes, thank you.

MR SONI SC:

Now to the extent that you want to refer to

your statement please feel free to do so but in my short
20

conversation with you, as I understand it, you have quite a
good recollection of what happened during this period.
MS DE BEER:

Yes, yes, very well.

MR SONI SC:

Yes.

MS DE BEER:

You know, I did not meet – you know, I had

my

property

on

the

market,

it

was

Page 226 of 253

a

guesthouse

and

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Just

for

record

just

indicate

what

property we are talking about?
MS DE BEER:

225 Rose Street, Waterkloof.

CHAIRPERSON:
MS DE BEER:

Waterkloof?
Waterkloof.

CHAIRPERSON:

Yes,

okay,

that

is

the

Waterkloof

property.
MR SONI SC:
10

On our version it would be the Waterkloof

property.
CHAIRPERSON:
MS DE BEER:

Ja, Waterkloof property, yes.
Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:
MS DE BEER:

Yes, okay, you owned the property?
Yes, I owned.

CHAIRPERSON:

Yes.

MS DE BEER:

It was a guesthouse.

developer

and

I

did

two

I am a property

developments,

you

know,

guesthouses just before the World Cup and …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
20

MS DE BEER:

2010.
Yes, 2010.

So I purchased the property

2005, 2006 and then I did two projects and – so after the
World Cup I basically decided to sell the property, so in
2013 I put it on the market.

And Mr Lucky Montana lived

five houses away from me in the same street.
So when the boards went up I – on the first time
Page 227 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
that the house was sold in 2013, the 10 March, two of my
agents Daniel de Lange and Antoinette Geldenhuys at that
time was the people selling the property and the boards
went up and the first weekend that they showed the house,
the one agent, Daniel, is very into cars.

You know, he

likes nice cars.
So he came and he brought me a contract and for
exactly the price – and, you know, I am used to, because I
am in property development, you know, people when it is a
10

house at that price they are always trying to bargain with
you. So I said but …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

What was is being sold for, what was the

price that you were selling it for?
MS DE BEER:
CHAIRPERSON:
MS DE BEER:
CHAIRPERSON:

I eventually sold it for 10.5 million.
For?
10.5 million.
But what was the price that you had put

up if you are able to remember?
MS DE BEER:
20

CHAIRPERSON:
MS DE BEER:

11 million.
Okay, alright.
At the first contract, was sold for 11

million.
CHAIRPERSON:
MS DE BEER:
CHAIRPERSON:

Yes.
The first transaction we did.
Yes, yes.
Page 228 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
MS DE BEER:

And there was no offering for a lower

price, etcetera, so I said to my agent, I said listen, when
people buying this kind of properties, he did not make an
offer?

And he says no.

transaction, you know?

I said then I do not trust this
And he says no, no, no, this is

…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

And who was the purchaser for the 11

million price?
MS DE BEER:
10

CHAIRPERSON:
MS DE BEER:

Lucky Montana.
Lucky Montana.
So they came to me and they said to me

ja, but Lucky Montana, he is the CEO of PRASA and his
cars – because he came there two or three times and every
time with a different very, very smart expensive car. So he
said to me no, no, no, no, there will not be a problem, he
will be able to afford because he said to us the loan is a
formality because one of his friends worked at ABSA.

But

what he did not know, I was also an ABSA client.
And so three weeks later, I got an email to say that
20

they only got value for 7.5 million.

So I was so angry

because I knew, because I was an ABSA client, my bond
was more than that at that stage and they knew that.
mean, I knew it was not correct. So …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
MS DE BEER:

I am sorry, hang on one second?
I am sorry.
Page 229 of 253

So, I

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:

Before this offer to purchase of Mr

Montana for 11 million, did you know Mr Montana?
MS DE BEER:
CHAIRPERSON:
MS DE BEER:
CHAIRPERSON:
MS DE BEER:

Not at all.
Even though he was five blocks away?
Yes not at all.
Okay, okay.
I only found that out after we met on the

second transaction.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

MS DE BEER:
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh, okay.
That he was living there.
But you are now saying that you learnt

that ABSA had valued your property for 7 million or was it
somebody else who had valued the property?
MS DE BEER:

No, it was – I got a letter from Mr Lucky

Montana.
CHAIRPERSON:
MS DE BEER:

Ja.
That he received a valuation from ABSA

and they only found 7.5 million value which I knew was not
true because, I mean, I had a bond, you know, on the
20

property because I bought for a lot less but I did, as I say,
a development there.
CHAIRPERSON:
MS DE BEER:

Development.
And I did a guesthouse.

So I really spent

a lot of money there. And …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

When you say you knew it was not true.
Page 230 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
MS DE BEER:

Ja?

CHAIRPERSON:

What was not true, was it the valuation

…[intervenes]
MS DE BEER:

The valuation was not true.

CHAIRPERSON:
MS DE BEER:

Or that he had got the valuation?
Ja, no, no, no, I – you see, he said to my

agent the bond will be a formality.
CHAIRPERSON:
MS DE BEER:
10

Yes.
That we will get the bond within no time

because he has got a friend in ABSA that is going to assist
him.

So three weeks later I got a letter from him stating

that they only found value for R7.5 million. Okay?
So I said to my agent, okay, do you want – oh he
said ja, but Lucky would like to meet with me to discuss
this. So I said no, I am not in – I am not going to start with
an auction, I am withdrawing the property from the market.
Which I did and …[intervenes]
MR SONI SC:
Chairperson,
20

Sorry, can I just stop you and just,

because

there

are

documents

that

are

available. Can I ask you to look at page 52 to page 59?
CHAIRPERSON:

Of course another way of doing it, Mr

Soni, and I do not know if it might be a faster way, to let
her

finish

her

story

and

then

later

documents.
MR SONI SC:

As you please.
Page 231 of 253

on

identify

the

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:
MS DE BEER:

Yes, okay.
Okay.

So 18 months later I decided to put

the house back on the market and when the first board
went up, Lucky stopped there and he went to – at that
stage it was Liesl Theunissen and Daniel, the agent that
was

also

involved

on

the

first

transaction,

they

were

showing the house and that is how I found out that Lucky
lived five houses from me because as they put the boards
up, he stopped there and he said to the agent, okay, I want
10

to make an offer, I have to have this house.
And so the agent said to him, listen, my boss will
not sell to you because of the previous experience, there is
no way that I can take an offer to her. So he said okay, go
and speak to her and come back to me and tell her this
time I am buying cash.

So the agent came to me and I

said to him …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

This time what was the price, this time.

Was it 11 million?
MS DE BEER:
20

I had it in the – it was 11 million and he

made an offer for 10.5 million.
CHAIRPERSON:
MS DE BEER:

Okay.
Okay.

So I said to the agent, okay, cash.

You know, last time it was a formality, now it is cash.

No,

if he does not put down at least 3.5 million non-refundable
deposit I am not going to enter into an agreement with him.
Page 232 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
So this must – discuss it with him first, let us not waste
one another’s time and then from there I will enter into an
agreement, so – which we did and he did pay the R3.5
million

non-refundable

deposit

into

his

lawyer’s

trust

account which I think paid it over – I cannot recall, but to
my lawyer’s trust account and the balance they paid later.
They were supposed to pay it 30 days after the
deposit and they went over longer but I gave them leeway
to sort of like get all their ducks in a row because at that
10

time they came back to my lawyer and said but they want
to buy the property through a Mr Johan Smith from Cape
Town.
And I was very angry about it. I said no, no, no, no,
you know, this is now just dragging this whole transaction,
I am not going to allow this.
And so my lawyer my actually said, okay, I will
discuss it with them, etcetera, it will not take longer than
normal, it is just changing the contract. Okay.
And then after that - how I know it was Mr Lucky

20

Montana, I did not meet him on the first contract, on the
second contract he insisted meeting me.
But my staff, everybody, they were in awe with him
and the one lady that has been working for me for many
years said to me she cannot believe that a man that works
in an overall can afford a house like this because he
Page 233 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
sometimes

visited

the

house

to

come

measurements, etcetera, in his PRASA overall.

and

do

Okay.

So

that is one of the reasons why we knew it was Mr Lucky
Montana.
But I met with him twice, the last time to hand over
the keys of my house and discuss, you know, technicalities
about, you know, when he would like to move in, etcetera.
But I sent a letter and that is the other thing, to
prove that it was Mr Lucky Montana, I sent a letter to all
10

my neighbours, because I had a very good relationship with
them,

and

I

introduced

my

new

buyer

to

the

whole

community and I said please, I would like you guys to make
Mr Lucky Montana feel welcome, etcetera, he is the CEO of
PRASA and I have sent that out and I do not know whether
that

was

the

reason

why

the

next

moment

Mr

Paul

O’Sullivan contacted me and it was the Rapport and the
Sunday Times and everybody was like a ton of bricks, you
know, sort of to get information, which I did not want to
give in the beginning because I did not know what was
20

going on and I did not want Mr Lucky Montana – he was a
very, very sweet man and a very nice guy, so I did not
want trouble for him and I did not know about all the
dealings, etcetera, so I refused in the beginning until this
Paul O’Sullivan told me if you do not give me the contracts
and stuff, I will subpoena you to come to court.
Page 234 of 253

So that is

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
basically how I got involved in this whole investigation.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

Yes, Chair, but we have the full picture.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

Yes, yes.

And I just want to fill in the documents.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

Yes, Mr Soni, I think you can…

Yes.
Ms de Beer, can I ask you, if you turn to

page 52, up to page 59.
MS DE BEER:
10

MR SONI SC:

Yes.
This is an offer – a deed of members – a

sale of members’ interest.

Is this the first agreement that

you entered into with Mr Montana?
MS DE BEER:

Yes.

MR SONI SC:

And if you look at page 59 you will see that

it is dated the 10 February 2013.

20

MS DE BEER:

That is correct.

MR SONI SC:

That is when you signed.

MS DE BEER:

That is correct.

MR SONI SC:

And then if you look at the purchase price,

purchase price was R10,5 million.
MS DE BEER:

Yes because the reason for the 10,5, I

went because I wanted at that stage to sell the house very
quickly.
MR SONI SC:
MS DE BEER:

Yes.
So I said to my agents even though he
Page 235 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
never sort of like agreed on, you know, sort of making an
offer, I said to him let us tell him – because he said it was
a formality, tell him I …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Look at me more than you look at him. I

am the one you are telling the story to.
MS DE BEER:

I am terribly sorry about that.

Okay, so I

said to my agent, when he came to me and he said to me
ja, it is going to be a quick deal, it is a formality, I said to
him to make it more sweet, I said let us – go to your guy
10

and say to him that I will sell the property to him if it is so
quick at R10.5 million. Okay?
So that is the reason why it was sold for 10.5.

He

never made an offer for 10.5, I offered. Okay?
MR SONI SC:

Then if you turn to page 65.

MS DE BEER:

Yes.

MR SONI SC:

You will see that that is the agreement you

concluded with Mr Johan Smith as a trustee of the Minor(?)
Property Trust, page 65.
MS DE BEER:
20

MR SONI SC:

Ja.
Do you see that is the Memorandum of

Agreement yourself …[intervenes]
MS DE BEER:

This one was replaced with the one that

was signed by Lucky Montana.

This contract – the original

one was signed by Lucky Montana in this contract and then
they say okay, they are going to exchange …[intervenes]
Page 236 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:
MS DE BEER:

Then it was Smith?
Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:

And then – but it later changed to

Precise Trade or not?
MR SONI SC:

Yes.

MS DE BEER:

Ja.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ultimately it was changed to Precise

Trade.
MS DE BEER:
10

Ja.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

Yes, okay.

Just to put it in perspective, at page 70 will

see that the agreement with Mr Smith was signed on the 25
August 2014, if you look at page 70.
MS DE BEER:

Page 70?

MR SONI SC:

70, yes, the handwritten 70.

MS DE BEER:

Ja, ja, that is correct.

MR SONI SC:

But what eventually happened and that is

what the Chairperson was pointing out, that if you look at
page 71, this is the Deed of Transfer, the property was in
20

fact transferred to – from Amani Guesthouse CC to Precise
Trade and Invest CC.
MS DE BEER:

Yes.

MR SONI SC:

So that is what the Chairperson has been

saying.
MS DE BEER:

Ja.
Page 237 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
MR SONI SC:

So we had three sets of owners, if I can put

that way.
MS

DE

BEER:

That

is

correct,

there

was

a

big

controversy all of them about which entity to use and that
is, like I say, that is the reason why I was very angry
because I was thinking, you know, this whole thing – and I
was threatening that if they do not come to a point now of
making a decision, they are going to forfeit their deposit,
you know, I need this to be registered.
10

And so that is why – and I must be honest with you,
that I did not really – I am not a very good administrator, I
left that for my lawyers, but eventually, you know, I just
said to my lawyer just deal with it, whatever – whatever
they want to use.
I mean, my buyer was Lucky Montana, whichever
entity he decides to use, I do not really care, I just want to
get this registered and move on.

So for that reason, as I

say, it was different entities that was used.
MR SONI SC:
20

Ms de Beer, you said something as you

started this part of your evidence, you said there was a
controversy among them.
MS DE BEER:

Ja.

MR SONI SC:

Who is the them?

MS DE BEER:

I did not really speak to any of the people

but I mean I was told – I was phoned by my lawyer to say
Page 238 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
Johan Smith in Cape Town and they are not sure.
Now who they were, I do not really – I cannot really
tell you who all was involved.

Like I say, I did not get into

the nitty gritty.
All I know is that Lucky was my buyer and him and
Johan Smith and all of them were sort of like arguing of
which

CC

or

company

or

whatever

to

use

and

I

just

referred them back to Mr P J Viviers who was my lawyer at
the time and Mr van der Walt did the negotiations with my
10

lawyer.
CHAIRPERSON:
MS DE BEER:

Alright.
So my – I do not – I cannot recall but I do

not think my lawyer had any dealings with Johan Smith or I
think they had done that dealings through the lawyer of Mr
Lucky Montana which was Van der Walt.
MR SONI SC:

Eventually the property was transferred to

Precise Trade as you had agreed.

20

MS DE BEER:

That is correct.

MR SONI SC:

And the price was 11 million – at the price

of R11 million.
MS DE BEER:

I think was 10.5.

MR SONI SC:

Well, if you look at page 73 at the bottom.

MS DE BEER:

Ja?

MR SONI SC:

You will see and the purchase price to be

the

sum

of

R11

million.

The

very

Page 239 of 253

last

two

lines

of

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
…[intervenes]
MS DE BEER:

Oh, oh, yes, I see.

Okay.

Yes, as I say,

that is why I know and maybe – I do not know, maybe I was
– I cannot remember - like if I cannot recall, maybe I was
angry and they offered 11 million after the 10.5 originally
18 months ago.
MR SONI SC:

And you were not going to give [inaudible –

speaking simultaneously]
MS DE BEER:
10

Definitely not.

MR SONI SC:

Yes.

Now we have the – and I am just

trying to understand because you said something quite
significant

at

the

end

of

your

affidavit,

that

Montana

coming and saying on several occasions I want to buy this
property.
MS DE BEER:

Yes.

MR SONI SC:

But then he says, as you say, there is a

controversy

whose

in

name

should

the

property

be

registered.

20

MS DE BEER:

He never discussed that with me, never.

MR SONI SC:

No, no, I understand.

MS DE BEER:

Ja, okay.

MR SONI SC:

But there …[intervenes]

CHAIRPERSON:

What you did understand is that the

controversy was about in whose name the property would
be …[intervenes]
Page 240 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
MS DE BEER:

Yes, yes.

CHAIRPERSON:

He did not discuss it with you but from

your lawyer you understood that there was a controversy.
MS DE BEER:

Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, okay.

MS DE BEER:

The whole issue around whose – which

entity is to be used was done through his lawyer, Van der
Walt, and I was just notified by my lawyer that this what is
busy happening and I was fighting with my lawyer and I
10

said they had better now get to a point of what they want
to do because otherwise they are out of time, I am going to
get them to forfeit their deposit.
CHAIRPERSON:

And I guess what you wanted was the

millions.
MS DE BEER:

Yes. [Laughter]

CHAIRPERSON:

In what name the entity – the property

was, you did not care, you wanted the millions.

20

MS DE BEER:

Absolutely, absolutely.

MR SONI SC:

But just in regard to the point because this

obviously was a matter of some significance to you.
In your affidavit, which you made in September
2015, on the 21 September 2015, if you look at page 50,
you make a point about who the purchaser really was and
can I ask you to please read what you say at paragraph 8
of that affidavit into the record?
Page 241 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

What page?

Page 50, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON:

Five zero?

MR SONI SC:

Yes.

MS DE BEER:

Okay.

CHAIRPERSON:

Okay.

MS DE BEER:

You are talking about…

MR SONI SC:

Paragraph that starts despite …[intervenes]

CHAIRPERSON:
10

The

top

paragraph

at

page

…[intervenes]
MS DE BEER:

Okay.

“Despite the fact that there are corporate entities
involved there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever
that the house in question was sold by me through
my CC to Lucky Montana. First to him directly, then
to

a

trust

run

by

Johan

Smith

and

eventually

through his attorneys, corporate Precise Trade and
Invest.

The various contracting entities, such as

John Smith, Minor Property Trust and Fredees(?)
20

Trade and Invest Unlimited are merely this alter ego
of Montana.”
Which is correct.
MR SONI SC:

Now when you handed the keys over, to

whom did you hand the keys over?
MS DE BEER:

I handed the keys over to Mr Lucky
Page 242 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
Montana myself.
MR SONI SC:

This is the day after or a day or two after

you left the property?
MS DE BEER:

Yes.

Oh, another very important thing is

that I believe that if you leave a property for somebody
else, make sure that it looks better than what he saw it.
So I actually phoned his secretary and I asked her at a
time to meet with Mr Montana …[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
10

MS DE BEER:
CHAIRPERSON:
MS DE BEER:

That is Mr Montana’s secretary?
Yes.
Yes.
And I phoned and I said I would like to

meet with him because I am going to repaint the house.
That was not part of the deal but when I moved my stuff
out, out of the house, all the marks where your furniture
was, was – you know, there was ugly marks, etcetera, and
I looked at it and I thought, you know, with all my furniture
and everything, this is not the picture that he saw and I
would not like to leave it like this.
20

So I phoned her and said to her please could you
ask Lucky I would like to meet with him and then he can
tell me what colour he would like to have the house from
the inside.

He did not offer the outside but I mean the

inside of the house.
And then she said to me okay, she will come back
Page 243 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
to me and I think a day or two later she said to me Mr
Montana said thank you for the offer, but, I mean, do not
worry about it, he is going to redo and rebuild the inside so
you are going to just waste money.
So there was also part of the fact that me and
Lucky discussed that and that happened because, I mean,
after I moved out, he almost rebuilt the whole house.

I

was very upset because I thought it was very beautiful.
[Laughter]
10

CHAIRPERSON:

So, in other words, what Mr Montana’s

secretary told you, Mr Montana said he would do to the
house actually happened subsequently?
MS DE BEER:

Ye s , y e s .

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

MS DE BEER:

He said to me it is no need to do that, I

m e a n , h e g o i n g t o b r e a k d o w n t h e p l a c e a n y w a y.
MR SONI SC:

A n d y o u a r e a d e v e l o p e r, w a s i t a m a j o r – I

mean, was it a major renovation that he effected?
MS DE BEER:
20

I n e v e r, I m u s t b e h o n e s t w i t h y o u I n e v e r

had contact with him afterwards, but I drove past that
house,

I

had

understand

so

a
I

lot

of

drove

sentimental
a

lot

past

values
it

to

there,

see

what

you
is

happening, but you know when I drove past there I mean I
was so upset because there was just scaffolding, all the
windows were broken out, there was new windows put in, in
Page 244 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
the whole house, and as I say it went on for months you
know and up till today the scaffolding is still standing
there.
Nobody ever moved in, and it has been six years.
ADV SONI SC:

Oh.

MS DE BEER:

I think, I think, I think the State sort of

didn’t allow because when Paula Sullivan got involved, I
think

they

blocked

any

movement

on

the

house,

or

something like that, because nobody has moved in, in six
10

years.
ADV SONI SC:

Now there was a stage just before you

moved out that Montana walked through the house with
you, is that correct?
MS DE BEER:
ADV SONI SC:

That’s correct.
And you deal with that at paragraph 6 of

your affidavit Ms de Beer?
MS DE BEER:
ADV SONI SC:

Ja.
And you can start, it is at paragraph 6,

and you can start with the sentence that reads, the second
20

sentence, the first meeting.
MS DE BEER:

The first meeting I had with Montana was

in or about mid-November 2014.

Montana walked through

the house at that stage as he wanted to check some things
I moved out and the morning of the 26th 2013 I again met
w i t h M o n t a n a a n d h a n d e d h i m t h e k e y s f o r t h e p r o p e r t y.
Page 245 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
ADV SONI SC:

This is after he declined your offer to

repaint the house.
MS DE BEER:
ADV SONI SC:
MS DE BEER:
ADV SONI SC:

That is correct.
T h e i n s i d e , s o r r y.
Ye s .
And then can I ask you to please turn to

pages 7 ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Just before that, so all of this happened,

the transfer happened, the transfer was – of the property
10

was from your close corporation as the owner to Precise
Tr a d e a s t h e n e w o w n e r b u t y o u a r e s a y i n g a s f a r a s y o u
are concerned the real owner was Mr Montana?
MS DE BEER:
CHAIRPERSON:

For sure.
And you

say you had these interactions

with him even with is secretary saying that Mr Montana
said he would – telling you his plans about the house,
which ultimately you saw happening?
MS DE BEER:

A b s o l u t e l y, b e c a u s e I – w h e n I w a l k e d

through the house with Lucky when I handed him the keys I
20

suggested to him, because being in property development
and I had business rights because it was a guesthouse and
you know the average rates and taxes at that time in
Wa t e r k l o o f w a s a b o u t R 2 4 0 0 r o u n d a b o u t t h e r e , a n d I t h i n k
a t t h a t t i m e i f I c a n r e m e m b e r w e l l m i n e w a s a b o u t R 11 0 0 0
to R12 000, and I asked him who is going to stay in this
Page 246 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
house and he said he was going to stay there, and I said to
him I suggest that if you – I said are you going to run it as
a guesthouse and he said to me no, he was going to live
there. And I said to him you know I would suggest that you
deregister the business rights because otherwise you are
going to pay R10 000 a month more for rates and taxes if
you are not going to run it as a business, and so he said
no, no it is not necessary he will keep it like that, maybe in
future he would like to do something with it.
10

So I mean I had those kind of discussions with him.
CHAIRPERSON:
MS DE BEER:

Ye s o k a y.
O k a y.

CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you, I interrupted you Mr Soni.

ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

I interrupted you, you can continue.

ADV SONI SC:

N o C h a i r, c a n I a s k y o u p l e a s e M s d e

Beer to look at page 76 and page 77 and these are letters
you wrote after you left.
MS DE BEER:
20

That’s correct.

ADV SONI SC:

Is that correct?

What are these letters,

just in general before you read them?
MS DE BEER:

These letters, as you will see is the 27th

o f N o v e m b e r, t h a t w a s a f t e r I h a n d e d o v e r m y k e y s t o M r
Montana

and

neighbours,

I

just

because

actually
I

had

felt

good

Page 247 of 253

the

c o m m u n i t y,

my

relationships with

my

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
neighbours,

and

I

just

basically

introduced

Mr

Lucky

Montana to them, and you know sort of like telling them,
you know make him welcome, make him feel – because he
is a very smart man, and he is a very gentle man and I
would like you people to sort of make him part of the
c o m m u n i t y.

So this is the reason for the letter that I have

written.
CHAIRPERSON:

If that email hasn’t been read into the

record I think ...[intervenes]
10

ADV SONI SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

I want it read in ja.
Ja, go ahead yes.

ADV SONI SC:

So the email is dated the 27th of

November and it is addressed to a particular email address
a n d t h e s u b j e c t m a t t e r i s R o s e A v e n u e S e c u r i t y, i s t h a t
your ...[intervenes]
MS DE BEER:

Ye s , w h a t a c t u a l l y h a p p e n e d I m e a n I w a s

about a year or two years prior to that my husband was
gun-pointed at our house coming from the gym and it was
v e r y, v e r y t r a u m a t i c a n d a f t e r t h a t w e h a d 2 4 h o u r s e c u r i t y
20

a t o u r, y o u k n o w w i t h a g a t e h o u s e o u t s i d e o u r g a t e .

So

that is basically just ...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Whose email address is that one where

you sent it to, and – is it Vision or something, do you want
to, that letter at page 76, that email address.

Wa s t h a t a

common email address for the community or what?
Page 248 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
MS DE BEER:
know

at

some

Ye s , I t h i n k , I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r w e l l , y o u
stage

some

of

the

community also

got

involved with security and I can’t remember whether that
was you know part of – you know because some of the
community would get say ten houses would have a security
patrolling and I can’t remember at this stage what really
h a p p e n i n g , a l l I k n o w w e h a d o u r o w n s e c u r i t y, b u t w e a l s o
sort of participated you know in the community as well you
understand, so I think maybe that could be that, I can’t
10

r e m e m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, o k a y.

ADV SONI SC:

Will you read then – well to whom is that

email addressed?
MS DE BEER:

To w h o ?

ADV SONI SC:

Ye s .

MS DE BEER:

I would like, to all my neighbours, which

one?

Ja, my neighbours it was the people across the road

from me, the people – I had a corner stand, it was a corner
house, now the people right opposite me, the people next
20

to me on the left hand side and the people at the top of
me.

It was only to basic three neighbours, ja.

The people

that I was close to.
CHAIRPERSON:
MS DE BEER:

O k a y, j u s t r e a d t h e w h o l e e m a i l .
O k a y.

“ To a l l m y n e i g h b o u r s ,
Page 249 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
I would like to inform you that I have sold my home
to Mr Lucky Montana, the current CEO of PRASA.
He is a very nice gentleman and would take full
responsibility of the property on the 1st December
2014.

I would like to find out whether you would be

interested

to

continue

with

our

arrangement

c o n c e r n i n g t h e s e c u r i t y, i f n o t I w o u l d r e m o v e t h e
guardhouse and continue with their service at my
new residence.
10

Thank you very much for your kind and faithful
friendship over the past seven years and I hope you
h a v e a p r o s p e r o u s C h r i s t m a s a n d a N e w Ye a r. ”
ADV SONI SC:
MS DE BEER:
ADV SONI SC:
MS DE BEER:
remember

n o w,

And you sign off as ...[intervenes]
Karen de Beer ...[intervenes]
Ms Karen de Beer and ...[intervenes]
Karen de Beer and Family yes.
s o r r y,

I

remember

n o w,

it

was

I
the

...[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:
20

MS DE BEER:

The email address?
T h e e m a i l a d d r e s s , V i s i o n P r o p e r t y, w a s

the few neighbours just on either side, we were just about
four or five, because of the gun pointing you know we
basically decided to get somebody you know sort of to
patrol.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.
Page 250 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
MR SONI SC:

Then if you look at the next page, page 77,

you will see that is a further email from yourself, but this is
addressed to Karen Mitchell.
CHAIRPERSON:

At what page?

MR SONI SC:

O h s o r r y, p a g e 7 7 C h a i r I t h i n k , i t i s t h e

very next page.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well it also say to all my neighbours, but

i t s a y s a d d r e s s e d t o , o k a y, y e s c o n t i n u e .
MS DE BEER:
10

I think maybe ...[intervenes]

CHAIRPERSON:

Is it identical?

MR SONI SC:

It is identical.

MS DE BEER:

It is identical.

CHAIRPERSON:

J a , o k a y.

MS DE BEER:

I think what could have happened here,

maybe one of my staff maybe had an oversight on one of
the people and that we then basically forwarded to them.
CHAIRPERSON:
MS DE BEER:

J a , o k a y.
O k a y.

MR SONI SC:
20

But what you say in your affidavit, and I

am just asking if that is now your recollection as well, you
want to make it public that you want them to embrace Mr
Montana?
MS DE BEER:
nice

community

Ye s , y e s .
and

you

Yo u k n o w w e h a d a v e r y, v e r y
know

everybody

was

quite

sensitive about what is going on around them after this gun
Page 251 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
point etcetera, and I wanted to let these people know that
there is somebody moving in here, this is who it is and it is
a very nice person and I would like him, because I also
told him about the nice neighbours that I had, so I want to
j u s t m a k e – a c t u a l l y t h e m t o g e t t o k n o w o n e a n o t h e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

MS DE BEER:

I told him about what nice neighbours I

have and I told them about what a nice man has bought my
house.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

D i d y o u e v e r m e e t M r v a n d e r Wa l t ?

MR SONI SC:

N e v e r, n e v e r.

MS DE BEER:

But Mr Montana you met?

MR SONI SC:

Ye s M r M o n t a n a I m e t s e v e r a l t i m e s .

MS DE BEER:

Ye s .

MR SONI SC:

On the last contract, on the first contract

n e v e r.
MS DE BEER:

Ye s , o k a y, a l r i g h t .

MR SONI SC:

A n d t o y o u r k n o w l e d g e d i d M r v a n d e r Wa l t

ever visit the house, in the way that Mr Montana said don’t
20

worry about painting and ...[intervenes]
MS DE BEER:

No, because I don’t know what Mr van der

Wa l t l o o k s l i k e , I h a v e n e v e r m e t h i m , I d o n ’ t e v e n k n o w
where his offices is.
MR SONI SC:
MS DE BEER:

And Mr Johan Smit?
N e v e r, n e v e r.

I never spoke to any of

Page 252 of 253

01 JULY 2020 – DAY 228
t h e m , I n e v e r s p o k e t o t h e m , I w o r k e d t h r o u g h m y l a w y e r.
MR SONI SC:

So Mr Montana is the only one that you

spoke to amongst the different ...[intervenes]
MS DE BEER:

Ye s , a n d h i s s e c r e t a r y ?

CHAIRPERSON:
MS DE BEER:

H’m?

A n d h i s s e c r e t a r y.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SONI SC:

A n d h i s s e c r e t a r y, y e s o k a y, o k a y.

Chairperson I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M s d e B e e r, w e

will release you, we once again want to say we are grateful
that you were patient, thank you very much for coming to
give your evidence.
MS DE BEER:

It is a pleasure.

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u a r e n o w e x c u s e d .

MS DE BEER:

Thank you.

MR SONI SC:

T h a n k y o u a g a i n f r o m u s M s d e B e e r.

CHAIRPERSON:

We will adjourn now and tomorrow it is

two witnesses, depending on whether an application is
going to be brought in terms of ...[intervenes]
20

CHAIRPERSON:

J a , o k a y, s o w e w i l l , b u t w e w i l l s t a r t a t

ten. We adjourn.
REGISTRAR:

All rise.

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S T O 2 J U LY 2 0 2 0

Page 253 of 253